SavageGeese | The Stellantis Baggage | Dodge, Jeep, Chrysler etc [20:15]

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TaskForceCausality@reddit

It’s a good video. IMO, Stellantis is their own worst enemy. Hubris can kill your business faster than John Wick’s pencil. “It’s a cheap car, whaddaya expect” is how you lose money. I remember renting a Dodge Caliber when my then-8 year old Pontiac Grand Am was in the shop, and it was such a pile that my Grand Am felt like a Lexus when I got it back. What Stellantis needs is an American Carlos Ghosn. Someone who has a vision to march to , can get the corporate trains aligned internally & is in tune with what the customers want. Releasing an *electric* Charger for a brand built on Alpha Male Danger to Manifold Check Blood Pressure V8 Americana was a real “Bold Move Cotton” fuckup.

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Tw0Rails@reddit

Yea, I felt most American companies acted that way in the 90's too, especially for their compact sedans. "What do you expect!?!?" uh, well, give me a reason to not buy a Civic or Camry? Likely just massive layers of management completely disconnected from the products, with no concern for pride in the output.

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Dr_Disaster@reddit

This right here. The influx of cheap and reliable Japanese imports put American automakers’ backs against the wall. But rather than learn from what the Japanese did well (lean production, reliability, scalable operations) the Americans competed by cheapening their already shoddy 1980’s quality making for vastly inferior cars and terrible consumer reputation. “Buy a Honda/Toyota” became the mantra. To me, the solution was always to simple that I never understood why the likes of Dodge and GM didn’t get it, and still don’t get it. You can’t compete with the Japanese. They got their segments and vehicles locked down. American makers have to do what Americans do best. Chevy should be making Impalas and Blazers (real ones), but focused on high quality that modern manufacturing should allow to be more cost effective. They should be comfortable and powerful. Same for Dodge/Ram/Jeep. Stop trying to make compact cars and crossovers. Your bread and butter is big, powerful cars the working class can afford. You don’t get ahead by trying to make what foreigners are making, you do it by being more you. It’s crazy because they will occasionally hit on this, take the 300C for example, then just completely fucking forget why it was successful and rollout another halfassed product like the Dart. Where would they be if those billions were invested in developing a better 300c? How did Lincoln get their entire lunch eaten by Genesis? Why isn’t there an LS powered 2026 Impala leading a high speed chase on the 405 right now?

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huge_hefner@reddit

I mean, the Big 3 do understand this all pretty well. It’s no secret that all of the R&D money at those places goes into truck and full-size SUV production, and what are those but the modern version of “big ol’ American cars”? They keep the sedans (what’s left of them) and crossovers around as afterthoughts, compliance commodities, and/or loss leaders. None of them (except maybe Stellantis) are under the impression that those products are remotely compelling versus Toyota or Honda.

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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huge_hefner@reddit

Yeah, I wasn’t really clear but what I meant is that Jeep in particular is seen as extremely valuable (perhaps rightfully so) despite making vehicles that by any objective measure aren’t as reliable, fuel efficient, or well-designed as something like a Highlander or CR-V hybrid. I would count the GC as a crossover, in the midsize 2-row segment (like a Passport or an Outback).

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No_Cherry_1423@reddit

I will say that the reason people buy a lot of Grand Cherokees rather than a Highlander (CR-V is diff class) is because a Grand Highlander is boring as fuck, and most people don’t want that else they would just get the fucking Toyota. The crossover bit, honestly its just semantics.

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Dr_Disaster@reddit

I don’t quite agree on that because truck buyers are truck buyers and everything surrounding that is very different. The segments American cars used to occupy is owned by BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. Think about how rare these cars were for most people to drive in the 80’s and 90’s. When you saw them it was a rare treat, now they are ubiquitous because of how much market share was thrown to them. Tesla was built on people’s desire of somewhat aspirational and attainable sedans. Hell, I even see quite a number of Lucid Airs being driven around these days. There is an appetite that the legacy automakers aren’t feeding.

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Pliskin_Hayter@reddit

CAFE bullshit was the reason they couldnt do this. They were forced to compete against the Japanese in a segment that they just didnt give a shit about.

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Tw0Rails@reddit

I don't even think they needed to "abandon" the segment. Sure they were taking some sales away. But with just 5% more effort in and having leadership's message be "what can we do to make this product different or unique to our competition rather than a pure value proposition", they might have taken a 10% larger slice out of the compact segment.

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TaskForceCausality@reddit

>>I never understood why the likes of Dodge and GM didn’t get it and still don’t get it They got it back in the 1980s. GM definitely got a wake up call when they partnered with Toyota back then to build what’s now the California Tesla plant. Why didn’t the RenCen bosses act on it? One part was hubris (“we own the U.S. market”) , and another was simple politics. Implementing better product management means closing redundant divisions, dropping unnecessary brands and shutting down rice bowls. If you’re the SVP of GM small cars, are you gonna tell your boss to eliminate your silo because it’s factually never going to be competitive ? Or , after getting your country club membership bill in the mail , will you instead proclaim that this time, the Chevy Cavalier will beat the Corolla? Oh, but if you’re the CEO you think, you’ll just fire the SVP and close the vertical. But then what will you say to the Michigan Governor , who’s now confronting X thousand unemployed voters because you’re not building pile of crap Cavaliers at a Detroit plant anymore? If you drop a n “all due respect, NO” response, hang up and press on, the Board calls your phone next. Shortly thereafter someone else will be the CEO, and look! It’s the new Cobalt.

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Dr_Disaster@reddit

That’s a good understanding and I used to work for one of these companies producing such doomed compacts, and even I have to recognize my career was built on fruitless hopes it could steal a sliver of market share from Toyota or Honda just enough to justify its existence. But the reaper eventually came knocking. The politics are definitely a whole thing, and no one like to be the guy that killed Car X, but it was always inevitable.

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T-Baaller@reddit

The Focus, Fiesta, and even the Neon were competitive, because Ford had European branch who actually tried with their small cars and the neon too had actual effort behind it by people who now would probably be bullied by the ram & hellcat bros.

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Larcya@reddit

American companies have this "They have to buy us no matter what!!!" Mentality. Motorcycles have Harley. Cars have Ford,GM and well Stallantis. Both groups suffer from thinking people have to buy from them. Both groups have shit themselves when people decided to go with the foreign made cars over their shit.

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Pliskin_Hayter@reddit

> Releasing an electric Charger for a brand built on Alpha Male High Testosterone Danger to Manifold Check Blood Pressure V8 Americana was a real “Bold Move Cotton” fuckup. Watching the Demon reveal and then watching them push an EV replacement a few years later is fuckin **WILD**.

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Spa_5_Fitness_Camp@reddit

I think they missed one of the biggest issues. They touched on it, then moved on, when really it needs a lot more focus. They are being bought/owned by companies that are taking some of the profits. And it's only getting worse. This is what equity groups do - extract value. Think about that, what it means. It means the brand is creating value, either in brand image, reputation, or sales, and instead of that resulting in brand success or more/better products, it's being *extracted*, in to the pockets of the equity group. It's gone. The Equity group will reinvest only what is needed to maximize the amount of total value extracted. Now, how can there be a 'total value' on a brand that should exist continuously, if run well? Does that mean 'value per year' or similar? Nope, it means total, after the brand is either dead or sold to the next owner. Way more focus needs to be on these practices and how they always wind up negatively impacting the brands involved. The consumers lose, every time.

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dissaver@reddit

FIAT had Marchionne, who was miles ahead of Ghosn in terms of competence and ability, unfortunately he died and it's been downhill ever since.

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india2wallst@reddit

No need for Carlos. I can get the job done.

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Aero06@reddit

> Releasing an electric Charger for a brand built on Alpha Male High Testosterone Danger to Manifold Check Blood Pressure V8 Americana was a real “Bold Move Cotton” fuckup. I think people forget the context of just how much environmental initiatives were cracking down on OEMs just a few years ago. Only *last month* did California acquiesce and agree to forgo their plans to ban the sales of any non-EVs starting in 2030. If you take into context the gun they had to their heads, suddenly turning your car which is best known for 0-60 drag racing, and making it electric like the Model S Plaid or Taycan Turbo, suddenly doesn't seem quite so insane.

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huhwhat90@reddit

I worked at a rental car company around that time and Chrysler's products from that era were so stunningly horrible that they're still up there with the Mitsubishi Mirage as some of the worst cars I've ever driven. In fact, I'd probably rather have a Mirage. At least a Mirage is honest about what it is.

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V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit

>What Stellantis needs is an American Carlos Ghosn. Plz, no. He did save Nissan, but he also ruined Nissan. Chrysler cannot have CEO like him. Beside, ex-CEO Carlos Tavares was Ghosn colleague in Renault, so he did use his learn from Ghosn to operate whole PSA and STLA.

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mr_bots@reddit

Ghosn was who Nissan needed at the time. He just stuck around longer than he should have. He was a good turn around CEO but not a good long-term CEO.

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TaskForceCausality@reddit

>>but he also ruined Nissan Whatever problems you have with Ghosn, without him Nissan goes bankrupt in 2002 . There’d be no 350/370z, 400z, R35 GTR, or Infiniti G35/37 or Q60. Yes they have problems now, but Nissan’s righting the ship and in a better place than they were in 1999.

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Wolfo93@reddit

But Dodge Caliber was made under Daimler Chrysler group not stellantis

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hopfield@reddit

Why are they criticizing them for not having a Civic competitor when none of the other domestic manufacturers have one either?

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Wolfo93@reddit

I mean they could just reskin Astra or 308 and slap Dodge badge on it. But would anyone buy european compact car with 1.2l hybrid engine in US?

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pdp10@reddit

The Trax/Envista has a 1.2L three-cylinder turbo.

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future_luddite@reddit

And imo Ford has been proven correct for killing their Civic competitor domestically.

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Matt_WVU@reddit

Ford killed themselves in the small car market by making hideously unreliable shitboxes that ended up needing serious repairs before 100,000 miles The fiesta with the DCT had to be like planned obsolescence of the badge in America. There is no reason they couldn’t have fitted a reliable torque converter automatic. Instead they made the most unreliable small cheap car on the market that ended up costing owners out the ass. Then they couldn’t get out from under it because cheap cars usually draw buyers who can barely afford a new car to begin with. The fusion with the 1.6 cylinder head issues, the Taurus with the 3.5 that would dump coolant into the engine suddenly without warning. I like ford products but they can absolutely build a civic/accord fighter but choose to make shitboxes

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pdp10@reddit

> There is no reason they couldn’t have fitted a reliable torque converter automatic. CAFE. It's harder on the small cars than on big trucks, seemingly as a sop to domestic automakers.

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Street_Algae_7475@reddit

The maverick hybrid is an effective competitor

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hopfield@reddit

Yeah as much as it hurts to write I don’t know a single person who has gone out and bought a brand new compact economy sedan. Mainstream buyers have totally moved on to SUVs and I can’t really blame them, they get a lot more cargo room and better visibility for no extra money. The only new sedans I see on the road are luxury cars and Teslas.

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Judge_Vandelay_@reddit

In GM and Ford's case at least, they do sell and stock varying models within the Civic/HR-V/CR-V price range. For example, a local CDJR dealer stocks 25 vehicles under 50k CAD (basically all '25 Compass models with cash on the hood). The local GM dealer has over 50 vehicles under that same cap (Trax, Trailblazer, Encore, Envista, Equinox, Terrain, mixed but mostly '26). Local Ford dealer has over 60 (Bronco Sport, Escape, Maverick, Ranger, even a couple Mach E's). They have given up any sense of competence on the lower end of the market, and they have limited continuity in their 'commodity car' lines. Realistically, they can't (won't?) beat the likes of Honda and Toyota on quality/durability/efficiency. But unlike Ford/GM/H-K, they also aren't beating them on things like price, features, or hybrid availability either.

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yobo9193@reddit

Thanks for sharing this; I tried two different times but I’m apparently an idiot that couldn’t get past the automod. I enjoyed Jack’s insight into the internal dysfunction at the company, because it sure does feel like a company where the cash cow brands aren’t given the proper budget to go the last mile. I was very impressed with the Ram 1500 I rented a year ago to tow my BMW; if the reliability was on par with Ford and GM, I would buy it without hesitation. Unfortunately, Ram and Jeep are subsidizing brands that should be consolidated or given more than a half ass effort to stay relevant (looking at you, Alfa)

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HamsterCapable4118@reddit

I thought RAM trucks are considered to be very reliable. I was always told it’s nothing like the rest of the Stellantis group.

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Pliskin_Hayter@reddit

Since like 2018, theyre no worse than Ford or GM. 10 speed F-150s shit the bed constantly and Silverados with DoD V8s also shit the bed exactly like Hemis do. The 2019+ Ram is leagues ahead of both of them in terms of quality as well IMO.

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Street_Algae_7475@reddit

They’re more reliable than GM trucks, but generally all three American brands are designed with planned obsolescence. Ram notably uses a more reliable 8 speed transmission while Ford and GM have a coengineered 10 speed that is manufactured poorly with cheap plastic parts and. Ram engines from the 5.7 hemi to the new hurricane are less reliable, and all three brands have electrical gremlins due to poor labor standards of install in American factories.

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yobo9193@reddit

They recently updated the electrical architecture on their vehicles, which causes a number of new issues to crop up. How prevalent they are is a good question

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Corosz@reddit

The hemi is a reasonable engine, but RAMs have their issues. I’ve seen head unit failures, rusted out oil pans on trucks <5 years old and some other stuff that is hard to excuse for such an expensive vehicle.

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halotechnology@reddit

I only the diesel ones maybe?

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lostboyz@reddit (OP)

It's a bit important to remember the context that in the late 00s fuel prices spiked, and you couldn't sell trucks. You could get large SUVs and some BoF trucks for 50% off MSRP. On the recovery, people flocked back harder than ever, but knowing it could swing back the other way, the plan was to start investing in other products. They saw that Audi/Porsche made up for most of VAGs profits, so they started throwing money at Alfa and Maserati thinking they'd be eventually be able to get the same results. Stellantis era is just a comedy of errors that killed any momentum they had left.

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kograkthestrong@reddit

The local nissan dealership was offering a free titan with the purchase of a versa

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Spa_5_Fitness_Camp@reddit

As an Alfa Giulia owner (not the Quad), I'm just glad my car wasn't designed under Stellantis, but now I get the Mopar warranty. About the PT Cruiser, why would they have updated it? It was a terrible car, and there's no sense throwing money at it to fix that, just kill it and move on.

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lostboyz@reddit (OP)

Idk what distinction your making about the development of the Giulia. The core vehicle wasn't even developed within the normal product development loop, it was a quasi 'skunk works' arrangement. The reason it's both good dynamically but also a poor product for the company is due to that. It was at as good as they could manage at the time, but really set Alfa's reputation in stone. Coincidentally, the flipside to the Giulia, the PT Cruiser was a massively successful product and really gave momentum to the retro design trend. It only became a failure because it received almost no meaningful updates on it's entire run. Even just refresh could've kept it competitive. There were sketches for an evolution on the design but ze germans were convinced the Caliber would be the replacement for both the Neon and PT Cruiser, they kept building the PT Cruiser because it kept selling.

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Wolfo93@reddit

What are you taking about!? Giulia and Giorgio platform was a flagship project of Marchionne publicly announced years before oficial car was shown. He put Philippe Krief a guy responsible for Ferrari 458 as head of development - it was all public and not hidden information. It was developed in a normal loop not some 'skunks work' whatever that means lol. Also the distinction is very important i know you Americans think of Stellantis as sort of extension of FCA and Chrysler but in reality it is a French centric company run by former PSA people. Today they would not get Ferrari technicians to develop their platform. It was a great product, it is underused because politically it did not fit in the new reality of merged companies

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lostboyz@reddit (OP)

Skunk works here doesn't mean secret, it means away from the core product development group. That had pros and cons. They started splitting off Ferrari well before the merger and that stopped a lot of the joint work because they had to pay market rate for everything. I was there through both mergers and the entire development of the Giulia.

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Wolfo93@reddit

core product development group? But it was only new platform they worked on, what else there was in this core?

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lostboyz@reddit (OP)

I don't know how to explain the entire hierarchy of product development at an OEM, but a typical car program is developed by thousands of people. The switches will be designed by 'the switch engineer' and suspension by 'the suspension team', and if all they do is make mass-market people movers, the people/process won't understand how to make the best luxury sports sedan. If you gave them that task, they would start with an existing platform, change a couple of things and ship it. To develop the Giulia they needed to make it special, so they handpicked some people from the regular teams, some ferrari people, and a giant stack of cash and cocaine and told them to get it done. At some point they have to re-integrate it back into the business but only after they achieve the main goals. That isn't normal, it isn't efficient, and it comes with major problems that lead to over-spending and/or cutting corners.

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Wolfo93@reddit

Sounds like a Fiat group mess. Why brands like Volvo/Audi/BMW can develop high quality platform then without the need for this process? Is Fiat just internally broken?

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lostboyz@reddit (OP)

It was just the best option available at the time given the timeline and investment they wanted to give it. The industry is incredibly complex and there is no simple conclusion to any of it. BMW has been making the 3 series for a long time uninterrupted, their process is built around it. VAG designs platforms for all of their brands at once, so it ends up being a trickle down where cheap cars benefit from more expensive ones. FCA was a merger of brands, Stellantis even moreso, you have a lot of different people who are used to different processes. Trying to develop something new in a time like that, you need to get away from the noise and focus. They're evolving the car well and it's become a decent product, but it was never going to he beat the established players.

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Wolfo93@reddit

Shame Alfa didn't blossom with those good products 9-7 years ago. Incredible how quality of product does not relate to sales. Alfa sold 6x as many cars with also pretty but technically much more basic 156 and 159

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Matt_WVU@reddit

I’ve never been a Chrysler fan, I’ve had family members own several of their vehicles over the years and they always seemed worse than the GM and Ford competition of their time That said, I think Chrysler was at its best when it was working with Mitsubishi and the neon was still in production. Abandoning the small car market was a mistake for the big 3 but I think especially so for Chrysler.

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dont-YOLO-ragequit@reddit

Post Diamond star Chrysler was already in the red and has been treated like a company to run like a corporate raid in order to either take advantage of 1. Use it's partnership with Hyundai to get with the cheapest suppliers. 2. Maintain long enough for a government bailout. 3. Use it's Dealer Network to help start a dealership network. 4. Try and double down on the profitable cars and cut too far on the less profitable ones.

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TheDistantEnd@reddit

I haven't seen someone lemon law a Honda after months in the shop and turn around and buy the same make and model car as the replacement, but I have seen someone do it with a Jeep Wrangler. Absolute insanity.

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lostboyz@reddit (OP)

Plenty of people stick with the same brand after a lemon law buyback. Every OEM builds lemons, many customers understand that, and some dealers even help them through the process. People who want a Wrangler really want a Wrangler

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Dirtyace@reddit

I have spent more money on New mopars in the last decade than anyone I know. They definitely make the special stuff feel special but god damn do they produce some junk. Once the lease is up on my 4xe in spring I think I’m going to sell the 392 also and buy a CT5v Blackwing to replace it and a BMW as a daily for the wife. I just don’t think they make anything special enough anymore to justify the price. I haven’t a feeling they are going to hellcat all the things again but they really need to get quality up to stay relevant, no one wants a car that is broken all the time no matter how cool it is. I will say all the big powerful stuff I owned by them had always worked well and besides me damaging it never had any major issues at all.

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Snoo93079@reddit

Also I see more and more kids riding electric scooters, bikes, etc. As an elder millennial we had none of those things. They're going to be driving soon and I'm not convinced they'll be as woo'd by LOUD ENGINE NOISES in exchange for worse performance like boomers are. But we all know how these companies are driven by short term sales.

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cocobear114@reddit

Yea theyve had issues for some time but i think Tavares really brought the US business dysfunction to a new level. he is the definition to me of a condescending smug european who believed his own customers in the US were mouth breathing knuckle draggers. the charger EV seemed to be a total f you to the people who had been buying them....you all want a fast, loud car?! well here it is, along with fake exhaust sound. its a car, not a videogame in an arcade. they cynical price gouging/increases were just a bad strategy too especially since quality apparently aint there. goosing profits like that is a pure short term play. they need to show some vision for who they are...

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ThePurpleBall@reddit

Sergio’s death was obviously sad, but the damage it did to stellantis at such a critical time was so crazy. For some reason what followed went completely off the rails from his original vision.

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Wolfo93@reddit

Sergio died years before Stellantis was born... You are talking about FCA

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lostboyz@reddit (OP)

It was really sad and it really did go off the rails. I was really hopeful that Mike Manley would've really stepped up and he did okay considering the situation, he just wasn't the right person to save the situation. There was/is a ton of talented people there, top to bottom, but they all want to go in different directions.

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Tiger955i@reddit

Solid deep dive although I felt they were far too kind to the dumpster fire of a company Stellantis has continued to be.

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dicrydin@reddit

“Spend more money on wrangler developement, less on Alpha” is a take I never thought I would see on r/cars. But I do fully agree with you.

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lostboyz@reddit (OP)

Alfa*

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dicrydin@reddit

I’m gonna keep it misspelled. It’s an accurate representation of my ambivalence towards Italian manufacturers.

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V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit

The problem is that still many people don't believe Detroit making decent econobox models, this isn't Chrysler only issue. Beside, more people pay more in expensive models, they don't want to pay less in econoboxes. That is reason why they unable to bring something like RAV4 or CR-V. Otherwise, CMP models from Peugeot side are really nice, these models from Europe could help Chrysler.

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