Hot take: The ship’s counselor shouldn’t be a Starfleet officer.
Posted by dashsolo@reddit | TNG | View on Reddit | 309 comments
TL;DR: Starfleet should have civilian or enlisted therapists on board to maintain professional boundaries.
Just watched the episode where Troi met with Geordi to discuss his presumed-dead mother and his possible self-delusion that she’s alive and contacting him.
If Geordi were asked to list ten people he considers close friends ranked in descending order, I bet Deanna’s name comes up before he hits number 10. They play poker after work, etc.
It’s hard enough to maintain a professional friendship in a paramilitary setting, where I might be put in a position to order you into a dangerous situation, or you’re relying on me to solve a tech issue so we can rescue your mom, but you’re also my therapist?
Let’s say Geordi has issues with his holodeck use, for example. He’s ordered to talk to the counselor about it before. Imagine having to talk to your therapist about your “self-soothing habits”, then sitting next to her in a conference room meeting later that day, arguing about the best approach for a life-threatening situation, or hanging out with her at the poker game that night.
When Picard suffered a deep personal loss in the first film, he avoided talking to Deanna to maintain an image of strength, the captain can’t be seen as weak. A civilian therapist solves this.
This is just a thought that occurred to me, but I couldn’t imagine ever feeling comfortable fully opening up therapeutically to someone I worked with and talked to socially.
sBerriest@reddit
In the US military we deploy chaplains and psychiatrists who are US military officers with the troops.
It's very important. I don't see this as any different.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
The part where she works on the bridge with the captain and the other senior officers and is best friends with all of them.
sBerriest@reddit
She likely wouldn't work on the bridge, more likely off the medica bay
CodAppropriate6109@reddit
I thought the whole reason she didn't wear a uniform was that she was a civilian, up until TNG "Disaster" when they introduced that she had a rank.
rybog@reddit
She was in a uniform in the pilot complete with lt. cmdr pips.
Fabulous-Fee4602@reddit
They literally have therapist officers in the military right now, also Chaplains who talk to people about sensitive topics.
The ability to maintain confidentiality and a professional working environments is part of the job especially when working on Navy vessels like aircraft carriers.
So yeah that's a hard disagree from me.
Clinical Psychologist | U.S. Army https://share.google/yIjt7LncDwR1edlQo
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
They don’t work on the bridge next to the captain.
Fabulous-Fee4602@reddit
Yeah but they don't usually have the counsellor on the bridge of other starships but when your counsellor is an empath with a very useful skillset then yeah they decided to make that decision, which the series does bring up as being unusual like when that other captain takes over the Enterprise and makes her wear a uniform.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
Totally agree, but I think, because of that fact, she should be referring the bridge officers to a different therapist.
Fabulous-Fee4602@reddit
I mean fair, the enterprise has a crew of 1014, one of which she had a relationship with prior to joining so you do have a point there. There should be more than one ships counsellor.
Dave_A480@reddit
She's the ship's chaplain, but in an atheist (unless you're Bajoran) future ....
It's normally an officer job.....
arksnegative_ar@reddit
Well Troi is one of the characters which makes TNG feel less impressive than it really is. Not the actress' fault, but her counselor and psychic abilities are not something to write home about.
AlteranNox@reddit
I couldn't imagine she was the only counselor on the ship. There are 1,000 people on board at any given time. She couldn't even come close to counseling them all. There are likely civilian counselors as well since there are civilians and families on board. I see Troi as a counselor for the officers and their families. Especially the senior officers. If any of them didn't feel comfortable talking to her about non-work related matters, I would imagine they would go to another counselor.
QualifiedApathetic@reddit
She couldn't do daily counseling for a thousand people, but how many of them at any one time regularly use a counselor's services? It's not a whole crew of Barclays.
j0hnan0n@reddit
It's the flagship. They're going through crazy shit every time they drop out of warp. Even if they aren't getting counseling, they absolutely SHOULD be.
Johnsendall@reddit
Security Ensign: “Yesterday I turned into a devolved primate and my superior officer Lt. Worf ate my roommate.
Troi: Do you really think you need therapy?
3Mug@reddit
No, no.... Troi: "Im sensing this is causing you some distress...
Mundane-Carpet-5324@reddit
Troi: boo fucking hoo
DracoAvian@reddit
Troi: have you tried being happy?
AlteranNox@reddit
I really meant she couldn't possibly counsel everyone of those 1,000 that would need it. Not that every one of them need counseling.
cmj0929@reddit
Depends, if they don’t need her Starfleet might have it mandated that they have to come in on 6 month rotations or something like that, I’m in therapy but that’s by choice most people don’t like to talk to shrinks if there’s no reason behind it.
QualifiedApathetic@reddit
Why not? It depends on how many of them need her.
AlteranNox@reddit
I don't think it would be farfetched to say at least 10% of the crew talks to her on a weekly basis. Probably more but lets go with 100 people for easy math. Lets say each talk to her once a week. That would amount to 14 people/hours a day. Then there are her other duties like crew evaluation, being on the bridge during encounters, observation room meetings, etc. I think it's safe to say that they would need more counselors than just her on board.
Chaghatai@reddit
I think it would be helpful to know how many counselors per 1,000 people exist in a regular City currently
NorthernForestCrow@reddit
Here is something that lists mental health providers per 100,000 population by state.
Chaghatai@reddit
Well, if I'm doing my math right, it sounds like there should be about eight counselors report a ship to adequately meet its needs
5hitposter@reddit
I don’t think this would translate well to the needs of the Enterprise. America isn’t exactly doing well caring for people’s mental health. A post scarcity society with 100% health care for all people would likely see much higher usage rates than a system where at least 1/4 of people can’t afford therapy. Not to mention those 1000 people are going through life and death situations on a weekly basis. Just think about the amount of therapy Miles O’Brien should have been going through on ds9! Just from one borg encounter I feel like half the crew would need to speak to someone.
Rustie_J@reddit
I'd bet that simply by virtue of being a post-scarcity society there'd be less people needing therapy. A lot of people's problems are secondary to issues caused by hypercapitalism & "rugged individualism,", so doing away with that would eliminate those secondary problems. Plus, things that go untreated because you can't afford it for so long that by the time you get help it's a prolonged ordeal would be getting treated sooner, meaning a given person would require less total treatment.
Add to that the fact that medical treatment in Trek is so much more advanced that things like schizophrenia are likely gone, or have much better drugs. When you then factor in the regular traumas of Starfleet life, it probably balances out to something like current numbers.
5hitposter@reddit
I would say you’re absolutely right for the general public, but on a starship, especially one doing galaxy class type missions, you are likely to be put through a lot of psychological and physical strain. You’d be put in situations that no therapist would know how to deal with. Help Dr. my wife was possessed by an alien entity and tried to blow up the ship. Now I’m having trouble trusting anyone. Dr. I broke the warp 10 barrier, turned into a salamander and had children with my boss. Where are our salamander children? Why did no one take they with us!?! I feel like those issues may take a bit of therapy to fix…
Rustie_J@reddit
While true, I'd also point out that Starfleet are supposed to be the best of the best. They don't even admit you to the Academy before psych testing, & part of command training is another psych test, the infamous Kobayashi Maru. They check for psychological stability, at multiple points. They're surely looking for flexibility just as much as stability.
The kind of people who are gonna crack up over a little alien possession probably don't make the cut. Look at O'Brien; he's got regular, normal-ass traumas from the Border War with the Cardassians, & the alien prison in DS9's Hard Time, but all the really weird shit doesn't even phase him. It seems like he just puts it all into a box labeled "weird space bullshit" & gets on with his day.
tdp_equinox_2@reddit
Not enough, even considering someone from a utopia future would be more willing to go to therapy than someone today. The social stigma of needing a "shrink" will have dissolved by the time we have starships. Everyone should go to therapy.
DuckyHornet@reddit
So actually I can fob a number at you. I was posted to a military facility with roughly 1000 personnel. The military mental health clinic had three psychologists for us. Additionally, the on-base community center had three or four civilian social workers who dealt with our families as well as grief counseling, couple's counseling, stuff that the military wasn't exactly geared towards
So less than ten mental health professionals for ~1000 members, and they were busy, you'd often wait awhile to get your initial consultation unless you were in crisis. Additionally, there's a telepresence service if, for example, you need to talk to someone who doesn't know you and has nothing to do with your job. I can't imagine how deeply uncomfortable it would be if you're needing advice on how to deal with the pressure the XO is putting on you and the only person on board whose job is to give you counseling is his ex
Sasquatch1729@reddit
In a normal situation, 10% is a massive number. On the Enterprise, 10% is probably a huge underestimate. Every week people were dying, and some of the deaths were very gruesome. One situation that comes to mind: in the TNG episode Genesis, the crew de-evolved. So some of them who became predators must have eaten the other crew.
Even situations where people don't die can be pretty traumatic. Like in The High Ground, where Crusher was held hostage for days and the ship was nearly blown up. I imagine that warranted a few sessions in Troi's schedule. Or visits to Guinan, the real councilor.
Rogue_Spirit@reddit
Everyone on that entire ship has been traumatized many times over
Lawnmover_Man@reddit
I mean... if we take everything literally, the crew would be absolutely trashed mentally. They would all need serious off-time for months if we would take everything for real. Normally, a ship wouldn't experience extremely rare and oustanding situations on a weekly basis.
In my head, these things are all rare things to happen. And they all happen to the Enterprise, so we can see them.
SadLaser@reddit
Some 15-25% of people in the US today get some form of mental health counseling. I don't think it's a stretch that despite being utopia, more people in the future would because there's less of a stigma around receiving such services. Especially in an organization like Starfleet. Even if it were just the same as today, therapists generally have 20-25 patients they see on a weekly basis when it's their full time job. It 200 people were receiving care (20% of the people on board), then they'd need more like ten people offering counseling services to manage that number.
And let's not forget that Deanna is also a bridge officer with a literal full-time job working on said bridge, attending meetings, managing diplomatic situations and more. To be honest, it's a little crazy she has any time to see patients for regular counseling sessions at all. Not to mention that for the crew complement to be what it is, there are many hundreds of crew members we never see working in all manner of fields (they don't just have one doctor and one nurse, for instance). It would be kind of ridiculous if their entire counseling department was literally just one person on the flagship of the fleet.
Cw3538cw@reddit
To add to your point, space travel is known to take a toll on mental health, so more folks than average would need counseling
TheRealRichon@reddit
Let's do some simple math. Most people who see a counselor go at least once per month. If Troi has standard hour-long meetings, working 8 hours per day, not counting lunch or breaks, that's 8 clients per day. Assuming a standard 5-day work week, that's 160 clients per week. That's 640 clients per month. So she could theoretically meet with everyone once per 6-8 weeks or so.
However, we also know she's often on the bridge or in staff meetings or pursuing other tasks in her role as an officer. That has to come out of her regular shift. If she spends 4 hours counseling and 4 hours on other duties, we're now at a max of 320 clients per month, which would take over three months to rotate between everyone.
Even accounting for some people not seeking regular counseling, she'd absolutely need at least a few assistants to ensure everyone gets adequate coverage and availability. I would imagine that at a minimum there are two to three other counselors on a ship that big.
MarcAbaddon@reddit
How do you get from 8 clients per day to 160 per week?
TheRealRichon@reddit
Good catch. I did late night math and skipped a step. 8 clients per day is 40 per week, and 160 per month.
I_am_Daesomst@reddit
Borg assimilation.
FrankenGretchen@reddit
This is ship time, though. Do they get 'weekends?' Also, Picard ran an alpha/beta shift schedule. Jellico ran an a/b/g pattern, so aside from the time when J wasn't onboard, her shift was 12h and 7d/w unless shore leave.
I'm also thinking she'd be the ranking member of the counseling dept with a team of folks working under her supervision. It's possible she falls under the CMO but she could function independently, too.
Curious_Orange8592@reddit
Not quite, Picard ran a/b/g, Jellico ran a/b/g/d, at least during the critical mission he found himself in while captain of the Enterprise. I suspect he was happy with 3 shifts aboard the Cairo when carrying out standard missions
qpv@reddit
My high school had one councilor for 1200 students.
billyhtchcoc@reddit
The duties of a guidance counselor are worlds different than those of a psychotherapist counselor like Deanna.
Especially considering that many (if not most) school districts/systems have additional support staff like a school psychologist and diagnosticians.
qpv@reddit
I was in high school in the 90s and we had one.
But you're right, I just asked my wife (she's a grade 6-7 teacher). For her district, the high schools have one councilor per 500 students or so. The elementary schools have 1 per 1500 or so. Her school has 1 councilor that serves 3 schools. The high schools have 3-4 per school. I imagine that veries by district too. We're in western Canada.
FreshLiterature@reddit
A working, full-time therapist today has about 20-30 patients per week.
Only 2-3% of the ship needing or wanting to talk to a therapist even just once a week seems low.
It's a long range ship that pretty regularly sees some real shit go down.
Seems likely there are other counselors on board and Deanna is assigned to officers.
Slow-Bodybuilder-774@reddit
Ooops! All Barclays!
SakaWreath@reddit
The rigorous testing they had to go through to even be placed on a ship would help weed out quite a few people.
It’s like becoming a submariner, you don’t put people on the ship that can’t work in tight spaces or crack up if they don’t see the sun for weeks at a time.
When Barclay was having trouble they discussed getting moving him to more suitable places.
RedditOfUnusualSize@reddit
Now I'm imagining a holodeck malfunction episode "A Fistful of Barclays", where the holodeck spams Barclays as NPCs. It's a lot like the Doopler episode on "Lower Decks".
Mudcat-69@reddit
Given how stressful that living in space is in real life, even short term, I would imagine that it’s mandatory that everyone on board would have to see a counselor at least once a month regardless whether they’re a member of the crew or not.
primalmaximus@reddit
Everyone needs therapy. Even the ones you wouldn't think need it.
BinarySecond@reddit
It realistically would be. The holodeck would be super addictive
jackrabbit323@reddit
How does a head counselor also spend so much time as a bridge officer? That's two full-time jobs.
Historical_Sugar9637@reddit
And later on they just kept handing her more jobs after the early seasons it was criticised that she seemed to have nothing to do.
She also does:
Do crew evaluations with Riker that include people to be considered for promotions and such.
Work with the children onboard the ship
Perform some diplomatic duties or accompanies Picard while he is performing diplomatic duties
Seems to have a hand in organising things for the civilian part of the crew, such as the Captain Picard Day.
She is also appears to be literally every kind of counselor/therapist. Family therapist, grief counselor, personal therapist, professional/workplace/career counselor etc. etc. etc.
By Season 7 you have to wonder if Deanna ever sleeps. Realistically there has to be a staff of counsleors/therapist, just like the little room with plants we see on occasion can't be the whole arboretum for 1000 people.
Zombierasputin@reddit
She mentions in an episode that she can assign a different counselor to a patient... I can't remember which one though.
Crusher also mentions she has a staff of other doctors on the ship... You just never see them I suppose.
jackrabbit323@reddit
Even Dr. Crusher has more clear and realistic delineation of her duties than Troi. Data has free time that seems understandable and relatable.
Advanced-Sherbert-29@reddit
Maybe Betazoids can put half their brains to sleep at a time like dolphins.
Historical_Sugar9637@reddit
Ha. That would explain a lot in regards to Troi.
And in episodes like Disaster she might have had both halves asleep at once by accident
:-P
Belle_TainSummer@reddit
Her bridge duties are a fulltime job?
Picard [looking at Shifty-McShifty name who is rubbing his hands and cackling to himself on the viewscreen]: "Counsellor what can you tell me?"
Troi: "I can't be sure, but I feel he is hiding something"
Picard: "I'm just gonna get one of those toys that says "the cow goes moo" when I pull the string, it'll be more helpful".
RadVarken@reddit
The captain of the ship doesn't work a shift. We always start the episodes with him there because something is scheduled or likely to happen. Where he goes, she goes. So she isn't necessarily a "bridge officer" but someone who is summoned to the bridge in case of crisis.
Stargazer1701d@reddit
In book lore, Troi was also a first contact specialist. Plus, her empathic abilities give the crew an edge when dealing with potentially hostile situations.
Dramatic_Mixture_868@reddit
I thought she was useful in sensing things when encountering other civilizations/species
Advanced-Sherbert-29@reddit
I think the problem is she's always referred to as "the ship's counselor" which grammatically speaking sounds like she is the only counselor on the ship (or that she actually counsels the ship). What they should have called her was the Chief Counselor, like how Geordi was the Chief Engineer. Then viewers would assume she has a whole department of counselors working under her.
ToxinPolaris@reddit
see people get it wrong she was the "SHIP" councelor she was only there to therapie the ship the other people are just a side gig /s
LukeStyer@reddit
I think the show’s calling her “the ship’s counselor” muddies the waters by implying she’s the only one. I think Bones was occasionally called “the ship’s surgeon,” but we at least saw M’Benga, who was presumably aboard even in episodes in which he didn’t appear.
RadVarken@reddit
Calling him the surgeon is probably a reference to sailing ships, where the head of the medical team was the ships surgeon no matter how many other doctors and surgeons there were.
wizardyourlifeforce@reddit
On TNG I seem to remember Crusher casually referring to other Enterprise doctors by name.
Sorry-Ad5474@reddit
The original tng enterprise had a single bathroom, sometimes minute logistics just arent a concern behind the scenes
cmj0929@reddit
Depends, my college campus of around 3k students only had 2 counseling staff for the entire campus which probably speaks to the bigger priorities of my school, but still the examples there
Dire_Teacher@reddit
When this show came out, therapy and counseling was still pretty heavily stigmatized. Out of a thousand people, the idea that even 10 percent of them were having weekly sessions would have been seen as weird then. Of course, this is supposed to be the future and mental health treatment is a great deal more socially acceptable now, but this is more a failure of the time period when it was written than in the logistics of the universe.
PomegranateExpert747@reddit
The senior officers are the one group of people she shouldn't be allowed to counsel, for the reasons outlined by the OP.
Migrane@reddit
She had romantic entanglement with at least 2 of the senior crew. Highly unethical to council people you've had that close a relationship with.
Enchelion@reddit
Pretty sure she mentions having staff or at least other counselors at least once. Though the show still treats her as the only one as she's going to be the one counseling senior bridge crew.
RainTalonX@reddit
On the naval ship i was one of about 1-2k people (depending on if we had marines embarked or not) we also only had one official counselor. (they were a civilian tho, but tbh ours kinda sucked) To the fill the gaps the other people who are trained as mental health counselors are the chaplains of which their were two. (who is are officers, and yes that does sometimes have the issues uve described).
Straight-Sun-892@reddit
Yah I’ve thought that too, but it’s still a conflict of interests with her personal and professional lives. Even therapists in our century are discouraged from dual-relationship so they can maintain objectivity
Kulban@reddit
Well....1701-D did only have one and only one public bathroom. And it was right on the bridge, no less.
So, logically.... She could indeed very well be the only one.
Top-One-486@reddit
There must have been another in the promenade and one in medical surely?
Kulban@reddit
According to the technical manuals and jokes from the Okudas, and even some official trivia.... There isn't. It may have retconned since the '90s. But originally and officially there's only one.
And Star Trek: The Experience in Vegas even accurately labeled it (but most people missed it because it's immediately before you walk out onto the Bridge and that's where most eyeballs are.
SpaceshipWin@reddit
Counselor Troi: Computer, how many holo deck simulations include me and who is running them?
Belle_TainSummer@reddit
Dr Bev can give basic counselling, all doctors and nurses can, it is part of the training. So Deanna is only gonna get the serious, long term, and particularly intractable stuff. If someone only needs a bit of basic help or advice, the rest of the medical staff can do that.
Which raises another question, as it currently stands, shouldn't Deanna be part of the medical department? Beverly should be Deanna's boss not her co-worker.
DukeAttreides@reddit
She does wear a medical uniform (in the seasons where she wears one at all). Which kinda makes it weirder that Bev isn't here boss, if anything.
encyclodoc@reddit
Consideration : she is an officer so she can be read in to the crazy classified stuff they do and still counsel. Not saying it’s a good idea but as an officer she gets the training to handle command and as a counselor can better understand what is going on. Ships doctor is also an officer, no?
Jackdiscreet43@reddit
One a few occasions she does mention referring someone she’s talking to to another therapist on the ship. She did with Barkley once and I think either Picard and another crewman. Given her multiple positions she couldn’t do the work on her own.
RomeoStone@reddit
I think it might actually have to do with secrecy...
Layers of sensitive/classified materials and/or black-ops stuff Starfleet does. Can't have just any civilian listening to the Captain who knows all kinds of stuff just spilling his guts to them.
Perhaps the "Counselor" needs to be an oath-bound officer, but plays themselves as a civilian...
JeetKlo@reddit
I imagine each department needs to be headed by an officer or senior enlisted. Civilian counselors might serve under Troi's supervision, but she is the accountable party so far as Starfleet regulations are concerned. She might also have clearances that civilians could not hold, so she would be the one to go to when therapy involves discussing classified matters. Maybe that's another justification for her to wear informal attire so much: most of the other counselors are civilians. She wants to de-emphasize the uniformed service/civilian distinction so that her civilian colleagues find her more approachable.
Altruistic_Fruit2345@reddit
Right, she was special because Picard liked to have her on the bridge to invade the mental privacy of random people they met.
Luppercus@reddit
Ha, you clearly don't live in a contry with public health systems.
FungiStudent@reddit
You're clearly insane.
Luppercus@reddit
Is just a joke. But in my country the social security is known for precisely that. Public health services provide therapy to the population but a single therapist often has to attend hundreds per month.
Is that so hard to believe that you think is "insane"?
CrazyGunnerr@reddit
Let's say someone works 40 hours a week, lets assume the average is twice per 4 weeks, with a session being an hour, we are looking at about 80 patients per 4 week, so under a 100 per month.
If someone is attending hundreds per month, they aren't doing their job. And I'm not being negative about them, but they literally aren't doing their job because they don't have the time to really sit down with them.
That said, not everyone needs constant counselling, but she also has additional duties like being of course a senior staff member, going on away missions, being an advisor to the captain when meeting other species etc. On top of that, while 1 person on a 1000 people on average should be fine, a 1000 that see so much death and other traumatic stuff, doesn't seem enough.
So yes, I would assume there are at least 2 others. I could also see them perhaps not be full time counsellors. Doctors/nurses could be combining it etc.
Luppercus@reddit
At least in my country they sometimes have 15 minutes per patient but that may vary on the location.
But yes obviously I agree is not a way for doing true therapy. Should be notice that is a free service and if you have a grave condition you do can get proper one hour therapy bi-weekly.
And yes I agree Troi is impossible to be the only councillor they must have others she must be like departament head like Crusher. Probably overseeing the others.
CrazyGunnerr@reddit
15 minutes is absolutely terrible. You can't do shit in 15 minutes.
Luppercus@reddit
Never been there myself but for what I heard is normally a psychiatrist (not a psychologist) and normally is something like:
"Ok what are your syntoms? Having problem sleeping? Do you have any bad thoughts? Alright this is your recepee. NEXT".
CrazyGunnerr@reddit
What the other person said, that's not counselling. That's more like the average doctors appointment. Councilling takes time over a long period of time. And obviously long depends per person, but I would say at a minimum 10 sessions of an hour, but generally a lot more.
Luppercus@reddit
As I said I was joking but it did remind me of the often saturated services we have in many countries where a shrink has to attend hundreds a month. Take it as third world humor.
Pm7I3@reddit
That's just not counselling
the_blonde_lawyer@reddit
I mean, one therapist or psychologist for 1000 people seems more than enough.
except if you take into account they're all being tortured/almost die/meet a god/trasnformed into a fish regularly, and if you take in the tonnage of trauma they deal with than you couldn't accomodate the amount of therapist will need.
Pm7I3@reddit
On the other hand if you let that almost slip into actual dying the workload becomes much lighter
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit
and yet she was
AlteranNox@reddit
He must have not have minded then ;)
Popular_Mango_5205@reddit
Most counselors are civilian, however there are lots of shrinks that are military officers. Chances are she was the chief counselor.
4thofeleven@reddit
I always thought that if they wanted people to take seriously the idea that the Enterprise having civilians onboard was a good idea, and that Starfleet wasn't the military, they should have had more people in important roles that aren't in uniform.
So, yes, Troi should have been a civilian specialist, and so should most of the other blueshirts; sure, the guys in security or engineering need to have a formal rank system and clear hierarchy, but Bob the Exobiologist should most of the time just be a visiting professor doing some field research, and there's no reason everyone in sickbay needs to have gone through the full academy.
Rustie_J@reddit
I'd point out that the NOAA Commissioned Officer Corps is a bunch of scientists with uniforms & ranks. Starfleet is also a paramilitary organization, one whose primary mission is exploration, so it makes sense that they have a bunch of scientists, too.
And, "everyone in sickbay" is gonna be a couple of doctors, a handful of nurses, & lot of medical assistants. The doctors & nurses will be academy grads, but the medical assistants are gonna be mostly enlisted. So most of sickbay have an enlisted rank, & certainly didn't go to the full, 4 year academy. That's likely true of Security & Engineering, too. If Starfleet is anything like real military & paramilitary organizations, the vast majority of the people in it are gonna be young enlisted people.
It's better for the blueshirts to be in Starfleet than to be civilians, anyway, because the higher percentage of the ship who fall within the clear, formal hierarchy, the safer everyone is in a crisis. A civilian during a battle is just a liability, whereas Lieutenant Bob the Exobiologist has both a battlestation, & the training to fight. Bob is somebody to worry about, somebody all those people with a rank have to protect; Lt. Bob is another hand who can help.
RadVarken@reddit
The shows started that way, with parallel officer and enlisted ranks. Eventually in TNG the writers had no military experience (from what I can tell, but maybe it was intentional) and wound up making everyone an officer. I think it's common in writing rooms for a character to address an named nobody as officer because the writer didn't want to figure out what rank the person would be or to develop a new background character. Trouble is, that throwaway filler title stays in the final draft. Pretty soon, every background actor had been called officer and there's no enlisted folk left. It seems to happen across sci fi.
Rustie_J@reddit
They were bad about it, but you did get some enlisted people. Roddenberry thought enlisted would cease to be a thing, that it was another form of inequality that wouldn't exist in the future & wasn't applicable to Starfleet anyway.
Which is a silly take if my (very basic) understanding of how the military works is accurate, & an extra silly take when you take into account how many support staff would be required for exploration, but there it is. I always kinda thought Chief O'Brien was an attempt at correcting that.
RadVarken@reddit
There's a good case that robots and replicators and the ships computer replace the enlisted personnel. I could buy that on an exploration ship everyone is an officer of some sort. The command branch are the traditional officers, the engineering branch are all specialist officers and petty officers, and the science branch could easily all be officers. Who cleans the toilets? Well, magic or a duty rotation, with a preference for technological magic. In the US Navy, the only people without "officer" in their title are the Seamen, the lowest three ranks. On a sailing ship the seamen were more like 80% of the crew. Now it's more like 10% max.
Rustie_J@reddit
Petty Officers are also enlisted, even if they're called "officers." Enlisted make up ~80 of the military, Navy included. It'd be nuts to have all officers even in the Science Department, because no amount of Roombas & replicators changes the need for lab assistants. The ship's computer can't mix chemicals for you. I will concede that I'm not super clear on the day-to-day in a science lab, but I'm pretty sure there's a lot of low-level grunts.
It'd be silly in Security; why would you need 4 years at the Academy to guard the brig? It'd be equally silly in sickbay, because you don't need a 4 year program to give people shots & run basic blood panels, & that's gonna be a lot of the work done by Medical. Most of the day-to-day labor in the military is done by enlisted. Officers are managers, so unless the very nature of an officer is different in Trek, it still wouldn't make sense for everyone to be one.
Remember on DS9, when Nog wanted to join Starfleet & Sisko made him inventory a cargo hold as a test? That's the kind of thing you have enlisted for unless you're making a point. An officer might oversee the inventory, would probably help count unless they suck, but most of it is gonna be done by Crewmen & Petty Officers.
RadVarken@reddit
The officer/enlisted divide is based on the class system of the underlying societies. In a post-scarcity world, there's no underclass to pull the enlisted ranks from. There doesn't appear to be a divide in Starfleet. If you get rid of it, petty officers become officers.
Rustie_J@reddit
I'm sure it was, in the sense that rich kids became officers & poor kids became enlisted, but the entire design of a military is dependent upon that divide. Non-coms deal with people & things, while officers deal with tactical planning. Non-coms work the assembly line or manage the factory floor; officers manage the books & make the business plans. Those are 2 very different jobs with very different purposes & skillsets.
And just because there isn't an economic underclass to pull from to fill enlisted ranks doesn't mean there isn't an intellectual underclass. There will always be people who just want to do on-the-job training, who work as a means to an end. For people like Picard Starfleet is a career, but most non-coms probably just want to see the stars, & Starfleet is the means by which they do so.
RadVarken@reddit
Starfleet is the premier exploratory and diplotaic service, with a side of war fighting inherent to the job. If plebs wanted to see the stars, they could join the merchant fleet. Your explanation furthers my case that the red shirts (TNG onward) are the only real officers in Starfleet. Everyone else who doesn't have "Chief" in the name is a petty officer, but in this universe there is no such distinction. Everyone is called officer, but the planners and leaders are in the Ops department. Of the snipes and daywalkers the Chief Engineer and Chief Medical Officer are officers by virtue of being department heads, but everyone else is some form of specialist.
AltGuardianGord@reddit
The ships counselor shouldn't dress like the ships prostitute. Troi and Yar were meant to be the show's eye candy but only Troi went around day to day with skin tight outfits with plunging necklines.
davodot@reddit
Doctors and Chaplains appear to have rank in the navy and army (otherwise they’d eat with the plebs and share bunks) so it seems in line with that approach.
Awesome_Hamster@reddit
I don't think an empath should be a counselor either. In fact, I would need to see a therapist on a daily basis if one of my co-workers is an empath.
the_blonde_lawyer@reddit
but that's actually something that comes up in real armies, too.
when I was in the military in almost every unit I served, most people are pretty young. the senior officers and professionals (like the doctor, who is also an officer but it's more like a professional rank than an actual earned military one) are friendly together and form a click simpley because they're the only "adults" in the unit. there's a reason McCoy and Kirk are friends, and that's because they're pretty much the only people over 30 on the ship. the TNG etnerprise is a more prestigious science ship with more people on board that have some seniority, but still if there was a civilian therapist on board, she or he would be a part of the same klick (clic? click? we say Klika in hebrew) with the senior officers.
I mean, there IS a medical doctor on board. she's a starfleet officer, but only in the meaning that all medical doctor serving in starfleet are given an officer's rank (same goes in real militaries too, to give them authority), and she is considered senior staff and has breakfasts with the captain and plays poker with the senior officers. that's not just because she and Picard has a history, Polaski and McCoy were the same.
Even Flox, that wasn't a starfleet officer and was a strange new comer to a very small ship (only 80 people if I remember corectly?) found himself as a peer to the captain and T'pol.
RadVarken@reddit
Clique
the_blonde_lawyer@reddit
thank you :)
takkun169@reddit
It's fine. She's a terrible counselor.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
You know, that’s not a take I’ve heard yet, so I at least appreciate the originality, thanks.
takkun169@reddit
To be fair, she's only a terrible counselor by today's standards. I'm sure there's been plenty of progress made in the field in the 350 years between now than the show.
ExpectedBehaviour@reddit
The thing is, Troi isn't just a counsellor; she's referred to as such since her medical qualification, and clearly she also still practices. But she's also senior cultural and diplomatic advisor to the captain of the Federation flagship, and that's why she's a Starfleet officer (and also why she has a permanent seat on the bridge).
RadVarken@reddit
From all appearances, her full time job is those other things and she counsels as a side gig.
xife-Ant@reddit
She also does crew evaluations with Riker. Imagine if your therapist was also your boss/ HR.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
That’s a great point.
RadVarken@reddit
We see it from a world where people compete for wealth, prestige, and promotion. Starfleet isn't that sort of place. People fall into the roles they were made for. You think their psych assessments didn't help with that?
wizardyourlifeforce@reddit
And could also read your emotions with their mind. It's dystopian.
Enchelion@reddit
It's one of those things, where a psychological evaluation probably should be part of personell files and evaluations in a situation like the Enterprise. But she still probably shouldn't be doing direct crew evaluations and deciding promotions, especially not IN THE BAR!
pplatt69@reddit
Military psych counselors are almost always ranked military personnel.
Ask a few AI to explain it.
LillithTheGoon@reddit
She's not a good counselor either lol.
The_Gray_Rider@reddit
Enlisted? Absolutely not. Civilian? Maybe. I think there’s value to having 1) shared frame of reference with military experience and 2) when you need a pilot when the duras sisters get a lucky shot.
socialcreditcheck@reddit
I think the rank is necessary in order to have the power to remove officers from their posts if their mental health is compromised
Kiki1701@reddit
Medical evaluators are not required to be officers. Anyone who needs to be removed from a post is monitored medically, but then it it goes to command. A full evaluation takes many people, and they often involve doctors, nurses and psychiatric personnel, at which point command herd involved if removal from service is required.
CibrecaNA@reddit
Aboard the enterprise it's different. One person can relieve even the captain of duty.
Kiki1701@reddit
That's not necessarily true. Troi can remove the captain, but so can Beverly Crusher. Technically, Number One can also relieve the captain in moments of bizarre behaviour like he did in 'Allegiance,' S3Ep18. I don't remember if Riker did actually remove Picard, but he was able to do so in that situation.
CibrecaNA@reddit
Ngl I've been binging DS9 recently. I somehow forgot about Crusher. But I think the point is if you have someone with command authority, you don't want them to be a civilian. Her psychological evaluations have military authority, it's reasonable that she's military.
Kiki1701@reddit
I actually dipped IRL for a military answer here. Medical personnel are not always military, despite the fact that they do exist. But there are times when specialists are required to make judgements.
VisibleCoat995@reddit
On the Orville I think there was a thing where one person could relieve the captain but when an investigation is done if it’s not found it was done for a good enough reason then that person’s career is over. I would expect star fleet would be the same.
wosmo@reddit
real life isn't very different. "you technically can, but you better be damned sure you're right" is very common.
Kiki1701@reddit
That's very true IRL!
UncagedTiger1981@reddit
Bingo
Fan_of_Clio@reddit
Ship's councilor definitely should be an officer, just like any other medical professional. Unfortunately they made her species force sensitive. About to detect thoughts and emotions across vast distances
PositronicGigawatts@reddit
Ehn, I disagree. You assume that the various non-Starfleet personnel on board never fraternize with the Starfleet crew. Guinan is always hanging out with the crew. In the TNG 'Lower Decks' episode, that one bar dude is part of the friend group of all those ensigns. Keiko is introduced to Miles via Data.
It's a big ship, but it's not THAT big. Relationships happen.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
Sure. But it would be easier. The other bridge officers must work with her directly.
PositronicGigawatts@reddit
Okay, think of it like this: Dr. Crusher has seen every bridge officer's butthole, likely multiple times. She still gets invites to poker night.
Rustie_J@reddit
Tbf, everyone has a butthole of some variety, but not everybody has crippling Daddy issues or an inferiority complex or weird sex dreams about Ambassador Koro. Psych issues are a lot more potentially embarrassing.
JGG5@reddit
“And Riker wasn’t even in for an examination! I thought he just stopped by to pick up my crew evaluations! Then all of a sudden he bends over and shows me his butthole and asks ‘Doctor Crusher, can you tell me why I’ve lost all feeling back there?’”
epidipnis@reddit
I like to think that's WHY she's invited to poker night.
LOUDCO-HD@reddit
It’s very similar to modern HR departments, whereby they exist to protect the interests of the company, not the employees.
MalagrugrousPatroon@reddit
I think she needs rank the same reason Crusher does.
It would have been interesting for Troi to head a department, like Crusher, and then she could have had other personnel available when needed.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
That’s exactly what I mean, yeah. Like, to avoid professional conflict of interest, actual therapy would come from someone that reports to the counselor, or a civilian.
SpiritedGuest6281@reddit
Maybe counselling services falls under sickbay and the other nurses also assist troi?
thanson02@reddit
I had similar thoughts. I work at a hospital that deals with behavioral health. Even low-level counseling is seen as an extension of medical services. Troi should have been part of the medical services on the ship, either under Dr. Crusher, or they were head of their own departments. (Dr. Crusher under general medicine and Troi under behavioral health). But that would not even include emergency medical treatment, pediatrics specialties (they had kids on the ship), Infection disease control (which you think would be more important when visiting different worlds), etc.
SpiritedGuest6281@reddit
Yeah, given a crew compliment of 1000ish you'd expect more than the handful of staff they seem to show just to cover the required specialities even given the more advanced medicine technology.
Pulaski for example was shown to be a surgical specialist.
Plus given the large number of alien species they encounter and adminster medicine on you would imagine they might have a structure more akin to a vetinary surgery where most people are generalists, but you rely heavily on experts for anything that isn't day-to-day.
Rustie_J@reddit
I always figured there weren't really many specialists to speak of, because why would there be? It's a (para)military ship. You need a couple surgeons, obviously, & you need shrinks & a couple of GP's, maybe an infectious disease specialist considering they're going where no man has gone before, but you don't need a nephrologist. Anything that can't be handled by a surgeon, shrink, infectious disease guy, or GP can probably be dealt with on a starbase. They aren't so far out that anything requiring another specialist is likely kill them before they can get there, & both stasis & subspace consults are a thing.
Although that does raise the question, why did DS9 not see a big influx of medical staff once they found the wormhole? Bashir should've had a pretty big staff, considering how many ships would've been coming through.
VisibleCoat995@reddit
See, this makes sense. You have a thousand people floating in space and in danger on a semi-regular basis. You need more than one person available for therapy if say the borg cut up the ship and kill like fifty people…
jayjay90uk@reddit
There's a comment I once read that I'd never actually considered and changed how I viewed the dynamics between Troi and Crusher. It's never directly dealt with in the show on screen and once you think about it, you do consider what off screen interactions would have been going on but just wasn't needed for a particular story... Dr Crusher was Councillor Troi's boss... Makes you think on a rewatch. Yes they were friends. Yes Troi also had a bridge role not only because of her empathic abilities but for her psychological training. But at the core of it, the Chief Medical Officer of the ship is responsible for all persons dealing with medial matters, whether that be medicine, surgery, or therapy. I wonder if Beverly ever had to give her a talking to about a work matter she wasn't happy about. It's interesting to think about.
dadbod77throwaway@reddit
Let alone part of the bridge crew or senior staff. Did piccard disclose to everyone he negotiated with that she was a betazoid (half)?
fatalrupture@reddit
I always assumed you have to be a Starfleet officer to be employed in any capacity whatsoever on a Starfleet ship? Lots of organizations that serve broadly in the same sort of general purposes on earth that Starfleet does for the federation have similar sorts of rules
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
Like the barber, bartender, waitresses?
unknown_anaconda@reddit
Is the bird on the Cerritos an officer? He never wears a uniform and I don't think he is ever referred to by a rank other than Dr., but then Troi doesn't wear a uniform for 5 seasons and is usually referred to as councilor.
IllustratorComplex13@reddit
If she was not a councilor but just a ship officer she still could read thoughts would it still make a difference? It is a hard call because either way she still knows your thoughts. If she was just a councilor and not a officer you would loose out on her abilities to tell if a foe is dishonest. Many times she told Picard about dangerous situations he wouldn't have known about if not a Betazoid. I would take the edge of her as a officer over any problems that might arise as her being a counselor.
fatalrupture@reddit
I also suspect that the fact that troi is telepathic is considered such an obviously desirable quality for the job that it pretty much guarantees her the job in spite of the issues you raise
TiredCeresian@reddit
I think a non-com would be fine.
VanTaxGoddess@reddit
She's the ship's commissar...
Immediate-Repeat-201@reddit
Shes HR. Her loyalty is to the ship, captain and not to any of the folks seeking counsel.
Grand_Negus@reddit
Shoot, we may need one of each... is that what Guinan does?
Dame_Trant@reddit
As a bartender I assure you that Guinan is Troi’s counselor
Enchelion@reddit
Guinan is the captain's personal enforcer. You think that guy behind the bar was just for show?
Traditional-Day-4577@reddit
Guinan is corporate’s hr.
GeneriComplaint@reddit
This raises an interesting question, at what point does she become required to inform on her patients?
DVariant@reddit
Probably the same point as psychologists in the real life military.
Ambaryerno@reddit
Don't turn around, whoa-uh-oh (Ja, ja)
Der Kommissar's in town, whoa-uh-oh
You're in his eye and you'll know why
The more you live, the faster you will die
Alles klar, Herr Kommissar?
Icy_Sector3183@reddit
Falco.
Ambaryerno@reddit
I went with the After the Fire version.
EngagedInConvexation@reddit
She's HR. She's there for Starfleet, not the crew.
LegitimateTrifle666@reddit
I don't think Troi should have been a counselor
Apprehensive-Tax8631@reddit
I know the actress, well, I don’t “know her,” but I did see an interview with her where she said she loved the Star Trek fans…it was actually on Red Letter Media, Mike & Jay and Rich discuss
terrymcginnisbeyond@reddit
I wouldn't go that far. Maybe they shouldn't be seeing her specifically. What people sort of miss is that Troi (and counsellors in Starfleet) are this universes versions of Military Chaplains, who are enlisted personnel that choose to be there, and do go through training.
It's simply not feasible for Geordi to never see his therapist socially in this kind of closed setting (or even an IRL military setting, especially when deployed). I think this is the danger of people trying to project their real life (vague understanding) of boundaries on fictional shows, or walks of life they simply don't understand.
Let's also go through 3 issues with what you've said.
1: These are supposed to be professional adults. They're not going to stalk Troi.
2: Even if they weren't, they would already know where she would live...The USS Enterprise. How would them not being an officer help that.
3: I'm certain she's under the same rules as civilian counsellors, other than possibly the danger to the ship. I mean if Geordi admitted he's having unable to do his job anymore due to dementia or something, that's probably something she can't keep to herself, since it would endanger the lives of the crew.
I actually do know my counsellor outside of the setting. We've managed, had lunch a couple of times, and texted a couple of times. All very above board and I've never done anything weird, and neither has she.
LLAPSpork@reddit
Regarding #3, I hope you know that’s very unusual. I had to sign paperwork where I had to basically promise that I’d ignore my therapist if we see each other in public. Or, actually, I think we can say hi but generally try to avoid actual conversation. We’re in the same Buy Nothing Facebook group (no, we’re not friends) and it’s awkward when we see each other’s posts.
terrymcginnisbeyond@reddit
It's "unusual" but not forbidden. We didn't explode, the sun didn't go supernovae. It's because I have this thing called self control, I don't need a piece of paper to remind me.
LLAPSpork@reddit
It absolutely is forbidden though. I may not have finished my psych degree but I certainly did get far enough (before switching to physics) to be taught the 101’s about doc/patient relations. You have to sever your ties with your psychologist before you can engage in personal conversations. It has nothing to do with the intent of either party. It’s just literally not allowed.
terrymcginnisbeyond@reddit
OMG, he has a "psych degree" all of a sudden. IT IS VERBOTEN! Well, I have and it's because I'm not a weirdo, other people, not so much. FFS.
LLAPSpork@reddit
I’m a woman and I don’t have a degree in it. I never said that. I said that that’s the 101 they teach you right away. It’s not like it’s some secret.
MikeyBat@reddit
My therapist and ai went to the same physical therapist. She told me generally the professional way to handle it was that we're supposed to act like we dont really know each other or casually interact if we don't have too but there wasnt a specific hard and fast rule. Its just ethically the right thing to do. Also Ill throw out there the easy answer that Star Trek probably just has different ethical norms depending on where society is socially at that point in time and the context of being on a living/working ship.
LLAPSpork@reddit
That is my point. We’re allowed to do that. I ran into my therapist at the grocery store. Saying hi is fine. A therapist contacting their present patient for Apple TV tech support is not allowed even if the patient doesn’t mind.
MikeyBat@reddit
The impression I get is that theres no technically rules against it but itd be considered unprofessional and maybe unethical but that also depends on the relationship you have with your therapist. After years of talking about your deepest darkest secrets and being extremely vulnerable it would be naive of us to assume you wouldn't end up, maybe not necessarily friends, but close enough to ask about consumer electronics off the clock. The therapist would have to make the call whether they'd reccommend seeing somebody else because they werent able to continue professionally because they feel they've crossed the line into "friend" territory and wasnt able to be objective any longer though. That type of closeness and trust might be helpful to somebody. I can't make a judgment on a person's mental situation or say what is right or wrong necessarily. I've had therapists that were friendlier and more familiar than others and some I liked and responded to better than others. I dont tend to like that in a therapist but ai can see how it might be beneficial to feel like youve built up that level of trust with the person in charge of your mental health.
Top-One-486@reddit
The USA is not the world and the current rules of the USA civilian psychologusts don't apply to a comissioned starship. I'd like to ignore your psychologist on a 1000-person warship... which you'd see multiple times every day.
LLAPSpork@reddit
I’m from Canada. I would’ve said CPA but figured that since the vast majority of redditors (and especially Trekkies) are American, I’d share that. But same rules apply in Canada and the UK FWIW.
nycpunkfukka@reddit
Wow that’s unusual. I had a therapist for a few years who I’d bump into often on the street and we would chat and exchange pleasantries. She actually called me once because in a session I’d mentioned how I had an Apple TV and how much I loved it, so she went and bought one and had some trouble setting it up. She called me and prefaced it with “I’m so sorry to disturb you and please feel free to say no if you don’t feel it’s appropriate, but might you be able to talk me through setting it up?” I was happy to, of course, and in ten minutes she was watching Orange is the New Black.
LLAPSpork@reddit
I don’t know where you’re from, but that’s very unusual in Canada. No chance in hell would a therapist be allowed to call their patient for private reasons. It’s considered unethical.
nycpunkfukka@reddit
It would be unethical if I worked in TV installation or tech support and she wanted free services, but in asking about a topic I’m just a knowledgeable amateur and had freely offered in the session where I’d recommended the Apple TV, that required no expense or inconvenience of any kind, no that is not an ethical concern anywhere on earth.
LLAPSpork@reddit
It’s actually insane you’re saying any of this on here. There isn’t a place on Earth (western countries anyway) where this is allowed. They could lose their license over this. If you stop being their patient, then yes it’s allowed. If you’re still their patient, it’s absolutely not allowed and literally any legitimate source online will tell you this — including the American Psychological Association.
nycpunkfukka@reddit
You’re just wrong, and your fact free insistence to the contrary is what’s insane. I’ve worked in Healthcare for over a decade and am well versed in both privacy and ethics laws. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
LLAPSpork@reddit
Ok then take it up with the American Psychological Association. I’m sure you know better than them. Saying I’m “just wrong” without any back-up doesn’t mean you’re right. Working in healthcare for a decade doesn’t make you a medical expert nor does that mean you’re telling the truth. I studied psychology before switching majors and it’s one of the first things that are covered with a patient but I don’t use my studying psychology as evidence because you can say whatever you want on the internet. So instead, I directed you to an actual legitimate source and you are still choosing to bury your head in the sand.
Rule of thumb is, you may establish whatever type of contact you want with the patient as long as you sever ties with the patient. You are NOT allowed to do so while having an active patient/psych relationship. I’m not saying I don’t believe that you have that type of relationship with your psych. I’m saying it’s against the rules and that’s on them, not you.
terrymcginnisbeyond@reddit
Ugh. Living this way must be so exhausting.
Enchelion@reddit
4: she's also the product of 1980's pop culture understanding of therapy and counciling.
First_Pay702@reddit
Regarding 3: Troi breeches confidentiality all the time. Exhibit A: Barclay.
terrymcginnisbeyond@reddit
It literally was interfering with his duties, however. Starfleet is not a civilian organisation. The rules are different.
Seaberry3656@reddit
There is actually a lot of discussion about this in the Ethics portion of Mental Health Counselor training. Ethically, you would NOT be part of your client's every day life for all the boundary reasons.
And yet, in some culture's it is expected that your counselor very much be an ingrained part of your "village", especially in the military. But it is very grey.
I rather agree with OP. It's great that TNG helped to spark conversations about MHC and ethics, boundaries, etc.
UncagedTiger1981@reddit
There are social workers and counselors in the US military who are officers. Actually, they all are. It gives them access to important resources and the autonomy to act when needed, and it's acknowledged that they're specialists first, officers second.
It's the same way when chaplains. Usually.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
They don’t work on the bridge with the captain, is my point.
Able-Thought3534@reddit
Too bad you didnt make that point anywhere you in your post
Able-Thought3534@reddit
I literally have a navy friend who is a military social worker with an MSW that hold the rank LCdr
DJAnonamouse@reddit
I think if TNG were made today with the current production model (and budget) we would see that there are like 3-5 other counsellors, of which she is the department head.
Think of Culbert. He’s the doctor we follow on Disco but he’s not the chief surgeon or head of the sickbay or anything, that’s a whole other character.
TrekTrucker@reddit
Easy solution: Go to another counselor.
The problem in TNG was that Deanna was the only mental health professional we saw on the ship. As part of Picard’s senior staff she should have been the Chief Counsellor, head of her own department with other doctors below her. Same as Crusher had other MDs working under her.
Fyaal@reddit
Chaplains are always officers. Chaplains assistant is enlisted too. It’s important to have someone else in uniform, just like you.
She’s the Chaplain in an atheistic society
PreparationFar5965@reddit
Why? USN Navy Chaplains act as counselors and they are commissioned in the Chaplin Corp, Deanna is medical when she is in uniform.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
Chaplains don’t serve as senior staff bridge crew along side the captain.
wosmo@reddit
I think the better argument is that the ships' councillor shouldn't be bridge crew.
It's clear they made an exception for Troi because her empathic abilities were an asset. Fair enough. But it's also weird that she's the ranking scientific officer, and fulfils almost zero scientific duties. It only worked because they had Data filling in anything a rank blue should have been doing.
And I don't mean this as a comment on Troi. More that as a military, it feels weird that if Data - lets say transferred to another ship - would they replace him with another gold? They'd need to replace him with a blue, to do all the blue duties that Troi didn't. And that's just not how it's supposed to work.
Chunk-Hardbeef@reddit
"When Picard suffered a deep personal loss in the first film, he avoided talking to Deanna to" ...
prevent the experience being shared at the next Betazoid wine sampling convention with every female Betazoid withing hailing range.
nbunkerpunk@reddit
Counselors and even preachers/priests are official members of the military currently.
Joe_theone@reddit
I imagine you're right. The only useful thing she did in the show's whole run was look good. And put on a kool accent.
Delicious_Shop9037@reddit
Probably because the job role is not therapy per se, it’s to keep an eye on the crew and keep them on top form, and report potential problems to the ship.
Falafel-Wrapper@reddit
Classified info.
Achmed_Ahmadinejad@reddit
The number of people who need daily counseling because they brought their family on a starship that almost gets destroyed every week or so should be pretty high.
fledermoyz@reddit
freud inserted himself into the lives of many of his patients, including one with whom he would walk around the city. perhaps starfleet are just really into psychoanalysis?
vukgav@reddit
In large international organizations, for example, like the UN or NATO, the staff counselor is indeed a staff member of the organization. They are the first person you have available, normally for work related counseling and for assessing your mental state particularly related to your ability to work and do your job. They are, however, not your private therapist, and may indeed direct you for further therapy if needed.
Adventurous_Topic202@reddit
Well considering how often Troi didn’t do shit to help and Guinan helped instead id say the ships councilor wasn’t in starfleet.
CodyofHTown@reddit
She's only the counselor for the officers.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
Which is the problem.
Tdragon813@reddit
I would say no with the great arch she took after Jellico made her wear a regular uniform.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
I love Deanna as a Starfleet officer (especially when she gets her official commander rank), I’m saying she shouldn’t be the therapist for other senior staff.
Tdragon813@reddit
OK, yes, that's worded better. I agree.
CntBlah@reddit
Lots of mandatory reporting involved, I’d imagine.
bomboclawt75@reddit
She’s making this guy howling mad for sure.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
I love her, actually. I don’t think she should be giving therapy to her fellow senior staff.
bomboclawt75@reddit
Don’t worry, he promptly escaped to the Los Angeles underground soon afterwards.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
Oh are you talking about Barclay?
MovingTarget2112@reddit
Shouldn’t wear that dress to work. Looks like she’s on a date.
Things got better when she put the uniform on in season 6. It meant she could walk with purpose instead of float about. She looked like a military officer.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
I love her in the uniform as well, and when she achieved a true commander rank.
Training-Principle95@reddit
She literally was a civilian member of the crew until the later seasons though, wasnt she?
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
No, always a commissioned Starfleet officer, but her rank of lieutenant commander was honorary based on her role as ship’s counselor.
She decided to achieve a true commander rank in a later season.
ANDERS_CORNER_08@reddit
Very good points, and I’d agree it should also be someone they don’t know ! Although that is tricky on a ship, esp longer missions.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
It’s a great point people are making, essentially the Enterprise is a small town, everyone knows everyone.
Mass-Effect-6932@reddit
Since OP has a beef with Counselor Deanna Troi being in Starfleet. Other counselors include Ezri Dax (Deep Space 9), Phillipa Mathias (USS Enterprise-F), and Elise McKennah (USS Enterprise). Historically, Starfleet counselors have served as crucial members of senior staff, assisting with the mental well-being of crews on long-duration missions.
Do they belong in Starfleet?
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
You’ve missed my point, and I love Deanna being in Starfleet. I don’t think a bridge officer should be the therapist for other bridge officers.
SpaceshipWin@reddit
Counselor Troi: Computer, how many holo deck simulations include me and who is running them?
Marvelboy1974@reddit
Well, I certainly enjoyed her on the bridge at all times, and I loved her unique position and ambassadorial role in many cases. I would have loved to see her flex more of her officer skills and was over the moon when she passed the bridge officers test.
As a hospice registered nurse, I related to her the most in terms of empathy, but I have so many other skills other than just nursing, and that’s how I’d like to think Troi was as well.
I doubt she was the only counselor, but she was probably the director and only saw the most important of cases.
ManifestAverage@reddit
I don’t think any of these issues are solved by having counselors outside of Star fleet. It would still be a ship so you would have a small community. Then the mental and medical health professions would still participate in ship leadership meetings because those are important things for the captain to know about.
Everything true about Troi is true about Crusher and basically every position on a ship.
dnkroz3d@reddit
Troi turns the lights down low and sits close. Yeah, professional detachment.
nextweek77@reddit
It’s a different approach.
Today’s world is one where we’re all detached from each other. Therapists are detached from your day to day because they only see you once a week.
However there’s an old saying “it takes a village”, instead of being detached from each other, you live much closer lives and you can support each other throughout the day.
Problems don’t build and fester when your councillor is able to help you in real time.
Shiny_Agumon@reddit
Also the Enterprise is a naturally closed system where it would be almost impossible to stay professionally detached from everyone.
Like even if Deanna was a civilian she'll eventually run into someone she works with off-duty unless she completely isolates herself in her quarters at all times.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
I really like this, thanks.
quantumrastafarian@reddit
This is why people go to Guinan, she doesn't have the same conflict of interest.
PastrychefPikachu@reddit
I don't think her not being a Starfleet officer would solve any of those problems. Picard not seeing a therapist because of some sort of perceived stigma wouldn't be any different if it the therapist was a civilian. And as far as professional distance goes, they're on a starship. If Deanna were to distance herself from the crew she would end up pretty isolated, and probably would develop a holo addiction herself.
SirStocksAlott@reddit
And then there’s her doing crew performance and promotion evaluations with her ex-lover. So many conflicts of interest.
factoid_@reddit
And definitely shouldn’t be involved in the fucking crew performance evaluations. Who thought up that idea?
Oh no, don’t prompt lieutenant Henderson he’s a head case and can’t handle pressure
Johnsendall@reddit
What bothered me a little more is that, unless military medical branches were vastly different in 24th century Starfleet, why didn’t Troi report to Crusher as the Chief Medical Officer.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
Well, I’m pretty sure she’s a psychologist, not a psychiatrist, she doesn’t prescribe meds, that I recall.
Stargazer1701d@reddit
The US military has psychologists as officers. Just saying.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
Not on the bridge with the captain.
No_Masterpiece_3897@reddit
The question is where do you put them? They can't not be an officer, they need a place in the chain of command that protects them, but they can't be too high because well their remit is fairly localised, but they need to be on par with or have authority over the majority of the crew.
Same as the physical medical field they need to be within and adjacent to the command structure.
They can be a contractor/ civilian for the same reason, you also can't justify a civilian the be a permanent member of a military vessel.
RenegadeKhan@reddit
I think she supervises the mental health and social work capacities of the ship, much like Beverly doesn’t treat every runny nose.
apatheticviews@reddit
Starfleet is very similar to the US Navy. The Navy has Chaplains & Medical Doctors who fill the same role as Troi.
A Marine BN (600-1000 people) typically has 1 Chaplain, and one Religious Programmer (enlisted).
I get what you’re saying about conflict of interest, but this is nothing new
Independent-File-519@reddit
warrant officer
Odd_Cauliflower_8004@reddit
It needs to be an officers cause of the secrecy
diadem@reddit
She's a low key telepath who can sense the intentions of life forms. She can sense specific individuals in other ships and advises the captain on the bridge. She has saved the ship form destruction due to her abilities and insights on multiple occasions.
Giving her officer status and placing her on the bridge effectively gives the ship an extra scanner.
CibrecaNA@reddit
A civilian with the power she has (sit down Captain) is even worse logistically.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
I’m only talking about the therapist aspect of her job. That part should go to a civilian.
CibrecaNA@reddit
As others have pointed out--maybe there are civilian therapists. There however needs to be a high ranking medical professional on the bridge and she's their version.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
They have the doctor for that? And we’ve never seen a bridge officer meeting with anyone other than counselor Troi.
NewLife_21@reddit
Key word being seen.
A lot goes on off screen that we never see. Sometimes it's alluded to in the narrative, most times it's not. We only see them interacting with Troi that way when it's integral to pushing the story forward.
A_modicum_of_cheese@reddit
didn't she order holographic Geordi to his death
NewLife_21@reddit
That was part of a test, though. To be sure she could order someone to their death even though she's close to the person.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
Haha I can’t believe I forgot to include that in my rant!
Fa_Cough69@reddit
I also think it's not appropriate for a councillor to have visible cleavage, as it could add to confusion with anyone seeking their services and a sense of attachment.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
Let’s not get carried away…
Fa_Cough69@reddit
Well I do think it's a valid point.
Would you think it's appropriate for someone in such a position of someone's mental/emotional well-being, to be dressed in attire that could be quite distracting and possibly counter-productive?
Don't get me wrong, I'm a big Deanna fan, but I have always been curious about this particular observation.
NewLife_21@reddit
If it's anything like modern military counseling services, and it likely is since Starfleet was based on American military, then there is a head therapist who is an officer in the military and then several therapists whom the officer oversees.
Normally, the head therapist/officer sees some cases while the rest of them see everyone else. The caseload for the head of the office isn't as high due to all their other duties, but they do tend to work longer hours out of necessity.
Wonderful_Donut8951@reddit
Yeah. TLDR for sure. Counselors absolutely should/could be officers. Keep them outside the chain of command and commission them in the medical corps.
Like our military. They are officers but only because they graduated last in medical school. I KID! No, they are doctors first, military officers somewhere down the path.
Charming-Mix1315@reddit
Counterargument:
Hot chick
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
I’m not saying Deanna Troi shouldn’t be a bridge officer, btw, I’m saying she shouldn’t be the one giving therapy sessions.
SinceWayLastMay@reddit
Maybe she keeps a couple patients on because she really likes being a therapist (or maybe she counsels the real nutbags that the other therapists can’t handle)
TheSnackWhisperer@reddit
That was my thought reading OP’s question. With her empathic ability, she can suss out when patients are maybe lying out right or misrepresenting their issues so they can continue to do whatever it is they do. You know the sure I was turned into a both, but it’s cool I’m fine to go back to commanding the most powerful ship in the fleet lol. So I could she her only being assigned in extreme cases, “new” disorders, or ones that involve individuals in very high stress/risk/powerful positions.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
Or she could see patients on other ships via zoom just like our therapists in real life.
SinceWayLastMay@reddit
Shhh they didn’t have the technology
Charming-Mix1315@reddit
Given that her contribution to the pilot episode was saying, "Pain! Pain!", I think they developed Troi as good as they could given that the character was ridiculous to start with.
"How did the (insert foreign race) giving you an anal probe make you feel?"
OwlBeYourHuckleberry@reddit
wait til OP hears about 7 of 9 going from borg drone to starfleet officer on voyager
Meatloafxx@reddit
Along with her lowcut outfits, she satisfied the Roddenberry quota
socialcreditcheck@reddit
Counter counter argument: camp follower.
Impossible_Head_9797@reddit
I see where you're coming from, but it's a lot easier to get counseling if you don't have to redact the classified parts of what happened to your counselor. But maybe the ship's computer can do that by beeping at exactly the right times!
Belle_TainSummer@reddit
At very least they should be outwith the chain of command on the ship. Answerable to some sort of ~~B~~Admiral back at Starfleet Command (except in cases of immediate emergencies) who has to dial up the Captain and relay concerns if the counsellor has a problem with them.
International-Bed453@reddit
The CMO is a Starfleet officer and she gets to see everyone naked and knows all about their embarrassing ailments.
darthreddit1982@reddit
Even hotter take: she wasn’t a councillor at all. She’s the ships political officer. That’s why she needs to be on the bridge so much. It also explains how she took quite so well to ‘faking’ being Tal Shiar on that romulan ship.
mattc4010@reddit
You’re missing the point. In the world of Star Trek in the distant future, councillors are deemed important and critical to star ship operation. You can’t apply current day thinking to this.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
You’re missing my point, I am only talking about the therapist aspect of the ship’s counselor role.
vendettaclause@reddit
I think that was just a prerequisite to being part of the bridge crew. And the enterprise being of unconventional make-up and their flagship. She's part of the ambassadorial team first and foremost, being a princess and all. But she needed clearance and other duties aboard the ship, and I believe she was already a part of starfleet regardless.
Groundbreaking-Pea92@reddit
troi was an unqualified nepo baby who used her empathic abilities to get by. She is an incompetent bordering on dangerous and therapist
ElectricPaladin@reddit
She's not really a counselor. She's a political officer. Look, she's a nice lady and she'll help you with your problems if she can - she is a trained psychologist - but her job is to look out for throwbacks to humanity's barbaric past and generally make sure that the people in charge of the planet-destroying firepower of a Starfleet ship are all stable and on board with the Federation's values. It's mildly creepy, but actually kind of necessary, when you think of how much damage someone could do with all the power of a Starfleet ship at their disposal.
GeneriComplaint@reddit
I think being enlisted brings up certain loyalty issues and questions about whether you can be ordered to breach confidentiality. It might be easier on everyone if they used civilians
jmf0828@reddit
It’s really not about her being a Starfleet Officer as much as it is about her being his personal friend. The military, FBI, CIA all utilize psychologists and psychiatrists who are part of their own organizations. Large organizations sometimes hire counselors to deal with internal EAP issues. Troi shouldn’t be taking her friends as patients unless there’s no other choice (ie. They’re in crisis and there are no other qualified professionals to help), but it’s hard to imagine that with over 1000 people on the Enterprise there are NO other counselors on board, especially given that a lot of Troi’s time is taken up by non-counseling psychological duties (eg. Advising Picard regarding an adversary’s psyche, providing the psychological part of crew evaluations with Riker, etc.). Simply being in Starfleet doesn’t pose a conflict of interest for therapy.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
I guess I mainly mean the part where the only therapist we ever see providing therapy to the bridge officers is, herself, a bridge officer.
In the FBI, the psychologist has an office, and you go there to see them, and that’s the only time you will see them. They don’t deploy with you in the field and watch your back when you’re kicking in doors (I don’t know what they actually do).
jmf0828@reddit
It would be an issue only if she had a friendship outside of work with a bridge officer. Like if it were Ensign Gates or Ensign McKnight it would be fine for Deanna to provide therapy (unless they hung out after work and we just don’t get to see that). While I don’t know exactly what FBI psychologists do, I DO know that they go through training with everyone else (everyone in the FBI is a Special Agent) and they’re not sequestered in an office until someone needs therapy. So they’re probably very much in a situation much like Deanna. But I get what you’re saying and the problem of dual relationships is something most therapists will encounter more than once in their careers.
Cookie_Kiki@reddit
I don't think being a civilian would necessarily solve the problem you're presenting. Even on a ship of a thousand, it's hard to be there for awhile without making any friends. A civilian could still end up having close bonds with members of the crew. Just ask Guinan.
nycpunkfukka@reddit
I think it’s the enlightened future version of a military chaplain, and in the US military chaplains are commissioned officers. It makes sense because chaplains advise senior command on religious and ethical matters concerning personnel, so they’d likely be privy to some sensitive and classified information, so they’d need to have security clearances and be subordinate to the orders of command.
Dirt290@reddit
I'm guessing they wanted her to serve on the bridge for dealing with alien cultures and to do that she would need at least a petty officers commission.
And yes they should probably have many civilian counselors and therapist as well.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I think they absolutely need a bridge officer that does everything Counselor Troi does, except therapy to other bridge officers.
Dork_wing_Duck@reddit
This is how it is in the U.S. Military. Though they also hire civilian psychologists, social workers, and therapists.
dashsolo@reddit (OP)
I doubt the ship’s therapist is a bridge officer, though.
Dork_wing_Duck@reddit
Correct. Almost never have double billets.
WilliamMcCarty@reddit
I see your point but at the same time it makes sense she would be a member of Starfleet. She knows the life and the rigors and risk of duty so she can better understand her patients' dilemmas and traumas. As an officer and medical professional, like the ship's doctor, she has the means to remove someone from duty if they pose an immediate threat whereas a civillian would only be able to make a recommendation.
I do wonder now if the counselor being an officer, if that's something Starfleet requires for the reasons I noted above, same reasons the doctors and nurses aren't civillians.
Used-Gas-6525@reddit
Not only is she not a good ship's councillor (in fact a terrible one), she is completely unqualified to be a bridge officer (Lt. Cmdr.). She has to have "warp core breach = boom" explained to her ponderously.
Aridyne@reddit
Being a bridge officer also puts her in a closer relationship with the senior staff , possibly ruining her ability to be objective in their care
Used-Gas-6525@reddit
If they could have gotten Whoopi full time, I would say ditch Troi for Guinan. She was a great councillor. Plus she turned Worf onto prune juice.
Sea_Violinist3328@reddit
You’d be correct in most cases, but Deanna’s awesome boobage negates any arguments to the contrary.
AlteranNox@reddit
I couldn't imagine she was the only counselor on board. Especially since there are civilians and families.
AlteranNox@reddit
I don't think she was the only counselor on board. There are hundreds of people on board. Military, civilians, families, etc. You don't think they had several different types of counselors specializing in different fields and using different approaches? She was a starfleet officer and was counselor for the officers with some overlap.
LadyAtheist@reddit
Someone needs to do the psych evaluations.
Available_Outside9@reddit
I definitely agree with you, I think it would be far more beneficial for the ships counselor to be without any Starfleet responsibilities. My reasoning for why I think that Starfleet may prefer an officer holding the position is probably so they uphold the prime directive and make sure while advising and counseling other Stafffleet staff members they encourage the same devotion to the directive.