Question for the ATPs: Have you ever commuted on a flight where you felt alarmed by the way the pilots at the controls were flying the plane?

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Rainebowraine123@reddit

Not alarmed, but one time they were adding thrust with the speed brakes out and I was like they must've forgotten they're out.

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TristanwithaT@reddit

Ain’t no way someone with a CL-65 type rating would find this unusual lmao

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Ok_Witness179@reddit

Not even type rated and even I know you gotta work to keep the packs running on those 🤣

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More for anti ice reasons, gotta keep the thrust up enough for it but still gotta maintain a slower speed. …orrrrr you’re out of CG for takeoff so you have to add a bunch of ballast, only to be heavy for landing now, so you gotta do something to burn that sweet fuel

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Ok_Witness179@reddit

> for anti ice reasons Ah crap, yeah I remember reading that now. That's crazy that despite all that, it's still cost effective to operate. Seems like a lot of waste!

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Tony_Three_Pies@reddit

To be fair, it’s only the -200. The rest of the family is made up of proper airplanes.

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TristanwithaT@reddit

Or both!!! 10 mins of delay vectors putting around yesterday right before descending into IMC and putting boards out because they wanted 210

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Rainebowraine123@reddit

It wasn't on a plane that it would be usual to have happen lol

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JasonThree@reddit

Big reason I always keep my hand on the speedbrake handle when it's out. I can feel the autothrottle pushing against my arm when it's time to stow.

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SMELLYJELLY72@reddit

the average approach in icing conditions my man

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Vincent-the-great@reddit

Could have been burning extra gas

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OnionDart@reddit

“Hah n00bs. Fuck, gotta rewind 10 seconds, how did they end up back in 1955 when they were just in 1985?”

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Oregon-Pilot@reddit

I was on a DH home after calling out fatigued and was not in a good place mentally. I was in the very back, middle seat, everyone's window was closed so I had no view of outside, and we took off out of LA. Idk what was going on with me that morning but being crammed back there tightly by people, in shitty small seats, not being able to see anything, everything happening felt wrong somehow. I *perceived* super loud and abrupt intense power changes, stronger than normal g-forces, etc., and for the first time in my life, I experienced a strong fear of flying and now I finally can say I understand why people would have a fear of and a strong dislike of flying. Rationally, I understand everything was fine, and odds are great thing was abnormal at all. But that old brain fear response was firing off for sure.

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oranges1cle@reddit

Ok so it’s not just me. There’s something about not being able to see the flight instruments while not being able to see outside that makes me deeply uncomfortable. When we’re on the approach and everyone’s shades are closed it drives me crazy. So all the passengers are just cool making ground contact without the slightest inclination that it’s coming? To be mentally prepared for it? I don’t understand.

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No_Leader1154@reddit

I have learned with great patience and practice the art of “checking out.” I am now all caught up on Severance on AppleTV+

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Bunslow@reddit

> So all the passengers are just cool making ground contact without the slightest inclination that it’s coming? To be fair there's frequently no choice for them. In good conditions with a window seat sure you can be pretty tuned in, but in mediocre weather, nevermind shit weather or at night, even an open window gives minimal SA. Given that, it's unsurprising that most folks don't even bother. We as a society have gotten accustomed to the non-control that comes with being an airline passenger. (I used to be in your boat, as a giant flying nerd myself, but as I've grown up it's become a lot easier to sympathize with that sort of passenger.)

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primalbluewolf@reddit

> When we’re on the approach and everyone’s shades are closed it drives me crazy. Huh. Airlines here (Australia) all require the shades open for arrival.

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WorkingOnPPL@reddit (OP)

Yeah, theoretically you would think it would be a safety issue for the passengers to have

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TheMusicArchivist@reddit

As a passenger, I've experienced this twice - once on the only time I've done long haul in the middle of the plane rather than a window seat. And the second time was holding, then diverting, for about an hour during a nighttime snowstorm. Even though I could see outside, I couldn't see a horizon, and just couldn't understand the power fluctuations or roll accelerations I was feeling. I was totally disorientated. Constantly felt like we were nearly about to land. This particular airline had no in-flight entertainment in the seatbacks so no mapping, no flight data, just completely blind for the passengers. So it must have been really scary for you, being used to having that data to work with.

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IndecentSmurf@reddit

I’ve had this exact feeling too, like you say, you know everything is as it should be and yet it all feels wrong

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Av8tr1@reddit

Was jumpseat on a Q400 of a well known PNW airline. Short run GEG to PDX. FOs leg and the captain and I are having a good chat about similar hobbies. The captain is running the flows while continuing the conversation. Zero sterile cockpit rule in effect. We are in the turn to base and Cap whips out his phone to show me some pictures of our shared hobby. I'm sitting there wide-eyed in disbelief. Nice guy, but holy shit, zero situational awareness. I'm an offline jump seater so I didn't bring it up but the FO and I shared a glance about it. I thanked them for the ride and went on my way without saying anything, but based on the glance from the FO I 90% am sure he went to pro standards the minute he got off the trip.

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Av8torryan@reddit

Q400 Rant- [best read ever about the Q400](https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/s/lPUJxQuDrK)

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ajmomoho@reddit

I’ve felt some rough brake application in a Q400 a few times, but that’s it.

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BathtubInTheSky@reddit

The brakes like to catch the moment they're warm, I once almost had my face put in the annunciator panel from them catching on what should've been moderate braking.

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F1shermanIvan@reddit

The ATR72 does that too. “Push the brakes and let them warm up, DO NOT push harder when they don’t grab, they’re carbon and need a second.” FO mashes the brakes three seconds after applying them and everything goes flying forward. Me: 🤨

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us1549@reddit

No but the partner of the jump seater might file an FAA report and cause an inter-airline incident...

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MiniTab@reddit

This is vaguely familiar… Please refresh my memory.

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FlyAirbusB6@reddit

OAL jumpseater called the FAA safety hotline after the flight about a perceived issue without even bringing it up to the crew. Said jumpseat was the publicly shamed and discussion of jumpseat wars ensued.

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554TangoAlpha@reddit

Ya that’s false, not what happened at all.

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A_Squid_A_Dog@reddit

That is not what happened

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ninjameams@reddit

You have the story wrong.

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Tony_Three_Pies@reddit

The jumpseater didn't report anything and the Reddit/internet running with this lie did a lot of harm, including doxxing some one that did nothing wrong. And here we are a year later still seeing it.

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someFAsarecrazy@reddit

The jumpseaters SO reported it if I remember the full story.

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Tony_Three_Pies@reddit

Yea, I don’t recall if it was their SO or just a friend but either that person reported it without the pilots knowledge. But for Reddit the sin of telling your spouse or friend about how your commute went is a crime worthy of severe consequences. It reminds me of the UA plane that went of the runway in one of the Colorado airports a few years ago. Everyone immediately jumped to “the pilots are stupid! The Captain should be fired!” and again including doxxing. Turns out they had a malfunction on landing (I think something to do with the brakes on one truck) that made directional control on the ground impossible. Reddit *loves* to play the judge jury and executioner with very limited information.

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SATSewerTube@reddit

Wasn’t this actually the bus in JAC?

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Tony_Three_Pies@reddit

Ah right, Jackson Hole. I knew it was one of the mountain airports but couldn’t remember which one.

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ThatLooksRight@reddit

Yes. Airbus in Jackson Hole. The brake lines on one side were connected the wrong way.

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WorkingOnPPL@reddit (OP)

The Boston Marathon bombing subreddit was the poster child for this. Reddit actually had a "pre-woke" era, if you can imagine that.

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FlyAirbusB6@reddit

Which is precisely why no names or airlines were mentioned. Someone asked about the story, a response was given.

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Tony_Three_Pies@reddit

Gotcha. Misinformation is fine so long as it’s *redacted* misinformation.

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SATSewerTube@reddit

Your ignorant post tells me you have absolutely no clue what happened and jumped on the bandwagon. The way you described it isn’t what happened at all and those close to her absolutely fucked her over on something she shared to someone in confidence, who misinterpreted the store, and was not in the industry

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RaiseTheDed@reddit

I think SW banned said person from jumpseating on them

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FlyAirbusB6@reddit

Can’t say that I blame them.

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runway31@reddit

is there a link to a thread or article about this? I wanna read up on it cause im curious

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T-1A_pilot@reddit

*,,,,begun, the jump seat wars have....*

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SupportGold7583@reddit

Swa and UA

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ce402@reddit

You either say something then and there, call pro standards, or shut the fuck up. You don’t do what a pencil dick, week off probation mainline pilot did to me at my regional and email the CEO of our mainline partner, CC’in the president of your union, with a bullshit Walter Mitty story about a routine go-around from an unstable approach off a slam-dunk visual at night. Where the only reason there wasn’t a smoking hole in the ground was because of your expert intervention from the jump seat. That resulted in a full months long investigation, and an apology from my chief pilot before and after the whole event.

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Bunslow@reddit

> email the CEO of our mainline partner Oh my god, that alone should get the guy fired *by the union*. In what world is emailing the CEO a good thing?? (In general, I'm in favor of involved and approachable management, but that's a whole nother level of ridiculousness.)

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Guam671Bay@reddit

Sadly there are Legacy WB captains that will do the same thing. It needs to be reemphasized and red circled, CALL PRO STANDS FIRST!

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triple111@reddit

That’s crazy work

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pjlaniboys@reddit

Yea because after all the hiring standards and selection, all the training department work, the type recurrents and checkrides there are some rogue and dangerous airline pilots flying around.

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Metharlin@reddit

I've been commuting for 3 years now and never considered it once. HOWEVER, on a flight to Aspen last year (I was PM), some Foreflight Commando in the back forced the FA to call us to let us know we had passed Aspen and ask if we were lost. Apparently, the asshat has never heard of a STAR or radar vectors.

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Grumbles19312@reddit

“Foreflight Commando” love this term. The back seat pilots like that are the absolute worst kind of human beings. Had one like that back in my RJ days. Some private pilot weekend warrior in first who refused to stop running his mouth, I don’t remember where we were going but there were storms all around, super gusty, and my FO rolled it on, but this chucklefuck weekend warrior was going on and on about how horrible the landing was and how he could have done it better and we were so awful. I made it a point to address him afterwards, asking what he flew, how much time he had, and what we supposedly could have done better. Watching him go about 8 shades of red and backpedal was worth every second.

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Swvfd626@reddit

Rookie move, that's why I always load the flight plan and stick my Sentry to the window /s

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Cant_Work_On_Reddit@reddit

Make sure to have the iPad volume all the way up too

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DerFlieger@reddit

That used to happen occasionally at the commuter I used to fly for. No cockpit door, and pax would shout “Hey you missed the airport!” as we were on the downwind. Sometimes we’d get complaints about pilots getting lost and having to pull out the map when we were briefing approach plates.

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ljthefa@reddit

That's exactly the type of guy you invites into the flight deck after the flight to chew out

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Ramrod489@reddit

lol “ForeFlight Commando”

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LowValueAviator@reddit

Never alarmed but I have gone HMMM a couple times.

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PositiveRateOfClimb@reddit

Not at all. Captain lit one up right after push and start. One hand on the tiller and the other one holding his cigarette on top of the throttle. Never felt safer lol. (Airline outside the US)

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Rich-Quote6243@reddit

I feel alarmed every time I have to deadhead on a regional

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Full_Wind_1966@reddit

Aside from a VERY long landing in a dash 8, nothing really special. Then again, I'm most likely sleeping 98% of the flight anyways

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clearingmyprop@reddit

I was on a Skywest CRJ flight to Ohare, I was very familiar with the taxiways of the airport we depart from. I noticed we had passed the taxiway we were supposed to turn on to get to the runway that was active, brakes slam on, plane rips a 180 on the taxiway and we start heading the right way. *then the landing happend* They planted that thing so fucking hard it was harder than any landing I’ve ever experienced on any airplane in my entire life. People were screaming and shit in the back. We bounced what felt like 20 feet in the air and slammed back down and the nose gear slammed the ground so hard. I wasn’t paying attention and was on my phone and I legitimately for a split second thought we had crashed because the landing was so bad. Wanted to check with the crew what happened but they never opened the flight deck door. Had my friend at OO do some snooping and it turns out it was an FO on her first flight off OE

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WorkingOnPPL@reddit (OP)

Wow. Thanks for sharing.

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someFAsarecrazy@reddit

Honestly I don’t even pay attention. I’m either watching a movie, reading, listening to something or occasionally talking to the person next to me.

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Whole-Hat-2213@reddit

You talk to the person next to you? I hate when that happens.

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Frederf220@reddit

Oh don't worry, they aren't *there.*

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ljthefa@reddit

I think I've seen this movie but assuming I have then I can't talk about it

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someFAsarecrazy@reddit

Usually it’s more like they are talking to me

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Bluevette1437@reddit

Fr I’m a both earbuds in, leaning away from the dude kinda guy. Or my face is planted right next to the window

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Grand-Jacket-8782@reddit

Nope, most of the time I’m not paying very close attention to what they are doing. I don’t know their policies and procedures. One time, there was a medical emergency in the back while I was in the flightdeck jumpseat. The captain flew it into where we were going like an absolute f#cking boss. I wasn’t worried at all, it was cool to see him work his craft.

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poser765@reddit

I’ve never been alarmed or scared in a jumpseat. I HAVE thought quietly and to myself “hmm, I’d probably not do this thing in this way”.

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anactualspacecadet@reddit

You can definitely tell the mins are lower in Europe I’ll tell you that, in the US everyone is up to par imo

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Hawker96@reddit

No not ever. But as a pilot, a recurring nightmare I have is being a passenger in the back and realizing we’re about to have a real bad time.

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sell_out69@reddit

I would've been alarmed if it werent for the heads up the CA gave me prior, but when I jumpseated on the 747 for the first time we climbed out at 285 kts below 10000.

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YupYup_3@reddit

Yes, and I spoke up. Air W. CRJ200. The FO was insistent on hand flying the approach. Admirable, but the captain was elbows and assholes trying to keep up. Not sure if he (fo) was showing off or genuinely liked hand flying. It was an ILS to minimums and we were not stabilized or even really tracking the course. Airspeed was all over the place. At about 800 feet I nudged the captain and said “hey man, you need to get involved here”. Captain took controls and initiated a missed approach. Transferred back to FO and we used the autopilot and all was well after that. I wish I could have been there for the dinner beers conversation.

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yourlocalFSDO@reddit

No professional pilot will answer this question publicly. Any concerns would have been dealt with directly with the crew and via the ASAP process.

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Chicago_Blackhawks@reddit

Good thing reddit is anonymous

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Baystate411@reddit

It wasn't for homeboy who got doxxed a couple months ago and then...fired.

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KITTYONFYRE@reddit

did he actually though? evidence?

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satans_little_axeman@reddit

Ha yeah sure it is

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yourlocalFSDO@reddit

That doesn’t change that fact that it’s unprofessional to discuss certain things in a public forum

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Baystate411@reddit

What isn't a public forum? The company water cooler FB page?

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cdn737driver@reddit

First leg of a two leg commute in the jumpseat. Some virga and strong winds on approach. Could tell immediately the PF was out of his realm and that we’d be going around. Extremely sketchy and poor maneuvering on approach, go around, swap controls, sequenced in for another try 30 mins later, other pilot lands without issue, run to another concourse across the airport, miss second leg of my commute, annoyed at situation.

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Baystate411@reddit

Yea I commuted on a flight that had a shit ton of frost on the wing and we took off. Same company that I worked for. 90% melted before we took off but after the short flight I went and advised the captain and he just looked at me and shook his head because his FO clearly didn't do a good enough walk around and we trust them to do the bare minimum of the job. He just said thanks for letting me know.

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arnoldinio@reddit

Tbh sometimes condensation looks like frost. Not saying you’re wrong but as an FO doing the walk around I could see how it might’ve looked like it from the cabin. Not saying it wasn’t in your situation.

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Baystate411@reddit

Nah, it was frost. The one that looks...frosty. FO never looked at the top of the wings. I watched him stuff a sandwich in his fat face on walk around.

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arnoldinio@reddit

You should’ve gone up front and pulled the fire handle to save the flight from certain peril. /s

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SundogZeus@reddit

Curious why you didn’t say anything before you took off?

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Baystate411@reddit

Maybe I should have but like I said, it seemed to be melting and was pretty thin but in no way adhered to a "clean wing concept"

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esjfly1@reddit

Not an atp but comm asel/glider and ga aircraft owner and frequent flyer for over 30 years, 2200hr. Just last month was window seat fc ( second row ) in a puddle jumper ( crj 700 I think ) landing at an airport in the north east. Following along in fore flight as we do. Landing was going to be with a stiff ( > 15 kt ) crosswind. I’m looking down out the window during the round out and flare thinking “ your drifting to much, go around “ . Then I heard the spool up. They did go around. Pulled the x wind off just fine the second pass. Was kinda proud of them. They didn’t open the cockpit door during disembark, so couldn’t give em kudos. Did see them walking out as I was changing from my Florida sandals to shoes and socks for New England October. They looked so young, and also had that kind of “my pants clean?” kinda vibe about them. But still, was proud of them. You can always go around.

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No-Series-3997@reddit

> Landing was going to be with a stiff ( > 15 kt ) crosswind Just so you're aware, anything under a 20kt direct crosswind basically doesn't even cause increased brain activity in most airliners.

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esjfly1@reddit

In many light aircraft too. But ya gotta handle it correctly.

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nl_Kapparrian@reddit

Not flying, but I did notice how rough the captain was on the brakes while taxing. It was a GoJet CRJ 550.

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LowTimePilot@reddit

Nit an ATP but when I worked in Crew we had jumpsuit privileges. They got taken away around 2014 but before that I got to sit in the jumpsuit during a charter flight for a sports team. Anyways on flight 2 the Captain was PF for that one and he got the stick Shaker to say hello on initial climb out over the runway. IIRC no one liked flying with him. He always tried to AOG his trips away from base and for some reason he wore one glove (on his left hand) when he flew. 🤨

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potat0man69@reddit

Was the jumpsuit fashionable at least?

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LowTimePilot@reddit

It was an MD80 so about the size of the back seat in an old 3 seat Ford Pickup. AC sucked too so I almost got air sick. All around a fantastic experience for a Private Pilot.

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potat0man69@reddit

lol it was a joke, jump suit vs jump seat

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LowTimePilot@reddit

Oh shit! Hopefully I fly better than I write and read. 😂

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mustang__1@reddit

you spelled write wrong

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SkinnyWheel1357@reddit

I was a red apparatus.

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flyingforfun3@reddit

Did the captain in question have a past life as a pop star? Did he moon walk into the cockpit, and possibly say “chaMOAN!” A lot?

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SATSewerTube@reddit

On the JS home after an 11 hour trip from Europe and LCA was doing new hire OE. I didn’t expect to work that hard on the JS and that new hire had no business being there. Absolutely unsafe with zero awareness or airmanship.

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Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit

An ATP holder should know that a passenger 20 rows behind the cockpit has approximately zero SA on what is going on with the flight so how exactly are you supposed to second guess what is going on in the cockpit

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__joel_t@reddit

The pilot might be commuting in the jumpseat and would have some SA about what's going on then, right?

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DonWop1@reddit

Seemingly, seemingly…

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lnxguy@reddit

I've felt some bumps and jerks from clumsy control inputs and autopilot disconnects.

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the_silent_one1984@reddit

I'm not an ATP. But I was on a regional flight in DCA as a passenger behind the wing and saw that they waited until just before the hold short bars before lowering the flaps. I've flown a lot and that was the only time I saw the flaps deploy so late. Usually it's before even starting the taxi, or at the very least before exiting the ramp. I was close to saying something while we were taxiing, lest we end up in the Potomac, but I also was really second guessing myself during it all, up until they were lining up and saw the flaps deploy right then. I took a sigh of relief then.

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disfannj@reddit

this was sop at one of my former airlines.

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Sk1900d@reddit

Each airplane and carrier are different but it’s not uncommon to delay extending flaps until right before takeoff if there is slush on the ground or active precipitation in freezing temperatures.

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Actual_Environment_7@reddit

When I was brand new and waiting on IOE, I jumpseated on a a different carrier than my own for the first time. The captain was loading the magazine on his pistol while he went through the Before Start Checklist, he slept for almost the entire flight, and we landed with 30 minutes of fuel at cruise consumption.

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TRex_N_Truex@reddit

Twice. Both on deadheads. First one, El Capitan threw the power up on the taxiway to enter the runway. I felt the nose wheel skipping and we ended up I’d guess about 20 feet past the centerline as I can still see it from my window. The rest of the taxing after we landed was the same, like they’ve never done this before. That was not impressive. The one that scared the shit out of me was DHing on BlowJet into TVC and while landing on 28, they smashed it down right before G3 and we turned off quickly at the end. I was anxious as I saw how high we were over the fence. I was shocked when they didn’t go around. I was angry once we got off the runway. Two fucking morons up front that day. They didn’t open the door as we deplaned. Fucking cowards.

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Matuteg@reddit

Only one time. Commuting into LGA. On the approach they probably hit 3 sink rates and one pull up (hand flying the bus). Never felt scared. Mostly curious how their FOQA will get to them lol. No go around either.

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GeorgiaPilot172@reddit

No, I just ask them if they have their apps in at my legacy

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runway31@reddit

Just a week ago I saw us coming in a little hot and high and wondered how we were gonna make it work, then we went around. Came on the PA and they said the arrival had us fast/high. Whether they got slam dunked by approach, or they just forgot to slow down/descend I may never know - because I'm not in the flight deck and I don't know shit in the back.

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Frost_907@reddit

Not really. Most people commuting probably aren’t even paying that close of attention.

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mrinformal@reddit

No, but I've RO'd on some of my own and questioned how the FO was even still employed. And on occassion, the Captain.

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SupportGold7583@reddit

No. Everyone sitting up there is qualified to be up there. Everyone makes mistakes up there too (usually not detrimental to safety). I have no clue what’s going on up there sitting in the back anyway

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FlowerGeneral2576@reddit

No but I’ve had commuters that didn’t know how to use the controls of the jumpseat on the plane they supposedly had thousands of hours on.

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MiniTab@reddit

That’s because they’re lucky bastards that never commute!

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legimpster@reddit

I wouldn’t say alarmed but I won’t lie I have had these specific thoughts recently: “wow, we’ve been descending with the boards out for a long long time, I wonder what they’re descent planning was?” “We seem a bit high on the approach, they better start getting down” (pilots ended up going around because they were too high) When coming in to land “oh late flare it’s going to hit hard” (bam, hard landing) Usually it’s just side thoughts like “more crosswind correction on landing please” but I don’t ever get alarmed. I did have a check airman who I was deadheading with talk to the pilots afterwards because he believed they exceeded a tailwind limitation.

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Lpolyphemus@reddit

No. They are highly qualified professionals and know more about the circumstances of the flight than me. So I do more important things like read my book or fall asleep.

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