A reflection from a Linux fan.
Posted by Equal-Ad-703@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 26 comments
I wanted to post this in Linuxsucks sub but it got rejected (idk quite why). So ill try here so its not wasted.
Hi, i'm from a third world country. My machine is a Laptop HP Pavilion TS 10. You can search its specs online. I'm glad I have linux bc this laptop comes with windows 8.1 and ITS A NIGHTMARE. Opening a right-click menu sometimes could take minutes. Opening a browser? Death. Seriously it was bad.
I can even edit video in my laptop with Kdenlive! And I can have a browser with several tabs open at the same time! (Though, I edit in a 480p video resolution that its borderline unacceptable for today standards, but its better than nothing, in windows I could not have done nothing, and my last video was still well received). My distro is Debian 13.
Performance its the only thing (according to my user needs) where Linux beats the SHIT OUT of Windows. For a lot of other features its worse and outdated to today standards (though Mint has done a great work for making you use the terminal less, but it is still not perfect).
Microsoft has put a standard of the knowledge you need for using your computer, and that standard is not going to dissapear. We cant really expect a lot of people to use the terminal when they would need a video tutorial and/or get help from the 'tech-savvy' member of their family for something that could be solved with gui in windows. Is that because they are dumb? NO! Its because nobody is born knowing everything.
Like imagine you are a newbie and your distro comes with openbox and you need to configure its hotkeys. You search on internet and your solution is in editing the rc.xml. A text file. with a LOT of text within. And kinda hard to read...
Linux is not only for programmers, I know, but in this situation you would need to be familiar with certain aspects of programming logic in order to edit this file without having done it before. Knowing that the shit that haves this weird <> symbols are "open and close tags". The computer needs then bc thats how it can differentiate between one option and another. Also, be sure that you write those tags respecting uppercase and lowercase bc the computer is not a human, letters are actually numbers and 'a' is a different number than 'A'. AND the closing tag needs the '/' symbol bc if not you are NESTING another tag.
???
And I say this as a Linux lover. This is not a problem for me bc I am (not beating the 'Linux is for programmers' allegations) a programmer and on top on that I am a tech enthusiast. I also from some time ago I have fallen in love with its philosophy, so I am not moving from Linux. But for a non-nerd user, I think we still have things to do.
A lot of people can learn, sure. But we can't really ask a lot of people to do it, bc again, Microsoft has put a big standard for user experience.
So, if a Linux dev is reading this: please consider making a GUI for your utility. I think tha could be a grain of sand for making Linux more comfortable.
And sorry if I come off as a bit smug or smth. My english expression abilities may not be the best, and I assure you my intention is not hating or creating animosity.
lavilao@reddit
Perhaps this isn't the answer you want, but some aspects of Linux are indeed geared towards developers and those with coding experience. Distributions often give the impression that Linux is a unified system when, in reality, it’s a collection of Linux-compatible software assembled into an ISO image. If a user desires a cohesive and well-supported experience, they should stick to major distributions and desktop environments, as these are the ones that receive thorough testing beyond simply ensuring everything compiles—the rest remains largely uncharted territory.
Equal-Ad-703@reddit (OP)
The big DE have done great progress in making friendly experiences (Again, Mint). And if you stick to just using a browser, office with native software, and downloading apps from a store, if nothing fails, you will be ok. But anything aside has big chances to be frustrating or a big step up in Knowledge Required.
DerekB52@reddit
You're overestimating how good people are at using Windows. A buddy just bought a $500 gaming laptop, and then texted me a picture of the download screen for Runescape, because he didnt know he had Windows 64 bit. The other options were 32 bit, or some Win Arm options.
Linux is honestly easier than Windows. It takes some learning, but if you want to customize or make lots of types of changes in Windows, that requires learning too.
Equal-Ad-703@reddit (OP)
I know people like your friend. But people like him are who I am referring to. If windows if complicated for them, imagine Linux. That's an impediment on Linux growth in users.
helgaardr@reddit
No, you are not. Because people who know nothing don't choose debian with openbox, and are even not likely to need to change their keybindings.
You are conflating a bit too much what you choose and the issues you had compared to what a "dumb" user would face.
ElectricalWay9651@reddit
If we're talking about "dumb" users, something like mint is 100% better because it has an actually usable software manager. Microsoft store is a nightmare as we all know, but the software managers on linux are enough that you don't even need to know what the hell 64 bit even is
DerekB52@reddit
I'm saying that to those people, Linux is actually easier than Windows. Linux isn't hard. It's just different than what people are used to. Except, people like that, don't actually know how to use Windows either, so they don't even have anything to unlearn.
And the fact is, for those people, Linux is enough. Because they don't want to make any changes. They aren't those types of people. If you give them Linux mint with an office suite a web browser, they're good.
Lots of people that have that level of computer knowledge, are using Linux on their Steam Deck, and having 0 problems.
FattyDrake@reddit
For a regular user, there's not much that they need to use a terminal for. Nobody should have to edit files after their computer is set up after an install.
I think a bigger problem is people who have been using Linux for a long time don't even ask what the user is doing or the apps they're using before suggesting a fix. Or they'll default to the command line option. Instead of saying, "Go into System Settings -> About this Computer and let me know what it says about your graphics card." They'll say "Go into there terminal and type
sudo lshw -c display"The GUI utilities are there. But nobody gives the GUI option to troubleshoot.
brusaducj@reddit
To be fair, telling someone to copy-paste something into a terminal and then having them copy-paste the results back is a lot less effort than trying to walk someone through a GUI, which might be completely different than than yours
FattyDrake@reddit
I've found working within the terminal when troubleshooting something to be even more of an issue. Without asking which DE/distro someone is on, it can result in a lot of bad information. Like back to the display issue, it the answer could be, "Well that was fixed in a recent Nvidia driver, update to the newest one." which may not be possible for someone on Mint, Ubuntu, or especially Debian without going through the whole manual compile/sign/install directly from Nvidia's site. And saying, "Well switch to a more recent distro." is even more of a turnoff to the average user.
And that gets spread across all sorts of divers/libraries, especially when it comes to things like audio, peripherals, etc.
It just helps fuel the image that Linux is a mess not ready for the average user.
I only go that route when someone is willing to get into it to get additional info for adding to a library or something. Other than that I just stick to DE-specific help.
Mo_Dice@reddit
So, you're not wrong, per se. But...
I'm new to linux, but I've been using computers since you needed a disk to start some of them. What you're describing in this excerpt is just literally how everything used to be, and it was fine. If you needed to do something, you learned how.
And now, in Windows, there are at least 2 separate Settings GUIs that don't even cover all of the options one might want to change. Give me the config file instead.
(and as a sidenote, I really don't think a formatted XML file is that hard to read)
Equal-Ad-703@reddit (OP)
I get your point. I know that Linux is more similiar as computers used to be, and that would be okay for old users (i find it okay too). But again, I don't think we can make people go back to that if we want Linux to grow in users. And I think if they reject to learn all of this they have justified reasons. But that should not delete the possibility of being more frugal and not use config files. I think both can exist.
The reason I said that XML is hard to read is not for me, im fine with XML (through I prefer fluxbox config style). It is because I read in a website called "Galería de Gestores de Ventanas" (Window Manager Gallery, an AWESOME spanish blog where a guy reviews Window Managers, like Giles Orr) this in the Openbox article, regarding Openbox config:
"...However, all the verbiage of XML its still there. Reading it is like hearing an speech through a badly tuned radio. And of course, its easy to commit any error".
I think I can see how the stacking lines in XML and the several tags can be easy to miss, especially for older people with poorer vision (or anyone with poorer vision).
fek47@reddit
To use Linux comfortably today, as a user without either paid or unpaid support, one must be prepared to invest considerable time in learning. While using Linux is less complex now than it was 20 years ago—especially 30 years ago—it remains predominantly an operating system for tech-savvy individuals and enthusiasts.
I recognize that many would hesitate at the prospect of using an operating system that requires a significant investment of time and effort to learn.
Nevertheless, I have faith in FOSS and I believe that one day, individuals who may not be technically inclined will be able to use Linux on their desktops. For this to become a reality, however, the community has much work ahead. The community has achieved incredible progress over the years and has accomplished seemingly impossible tasks, so why should this endeavor be any different?
SEI_JAKU@reddit
This post has to be written by a bot.
This statement is completely incorrect.
Wholly false. This is not what Linux is at all.
This is already reality. You are from a different world.
fek47@reddit
I thought that there would most certainly be disagreements. And that's fine. I have expressed my opinion to the best of my ability.
EarlMarshal@reddit
I understand what you are saying, but I strongly disagree. The things you perceive as disadvantages are actually advantages. Why should I use a GUI if I could just edit a file? It's great that everything is a file in Linux and you can just change it with your favourite editor. You basically need no knowledge for that. This might be a paradigm shift for most people, but let me tell you that I once also used windows only and I made the switch while I weren't working in IT yet and I adapted to it.
Linux system will stay expert system for a long long time. That doesn't mean that you have to become an expert per se, but that you will have to put in some time so you will have the basic understanding to feel comfortable and maybe make slight customisation. It only feels that hard, because you have much more freedom which comes with the responsibility to understand and do it on your own and most people are not ready yet.
Practical_Form_1705@reddit
TLDR Install KDE on Debian 13 and you will be able to set shortcuts via GUI.
muhahahahamad@reddit
So, Linux is not Windows and You cannot think about it like "Windows for free" . It's different system with different standars, sometimes better, sometimes not. You should accept this differencies or, and this is linux power, change some in your way as linux source code is free to use and change.
Fast_Ad_8005@reddit
You are probably too well rounded in your perspective for r/linuxsucks.
JoelWCrump@reddit
Debian with Cinnamon really gives one the kind of robust system with an intuitive UI, that Windows does, Mint is fine too of course. I'm using an inexpensive mini PC, now, and the advantage of using Linux is very clear, Win11 will boot on it and all, but it's hefty by comparison.
KnowZeroX@reddit
Most stuff on linux already have a gui utility, even if it may not be preinstalled by default it generally is there.
In most modern distros, you never have to touch the terminal. The reason why support often involves using the terminal is because terminal support is actually easier. Rather than providing multiple methods(based on DE) and with going through multiple menus to find the setting, copy and pasting a line into the terminal is most universal and straight forward.
If someone wants tailored built support, they can buy a laptop with linux preinstalled and customer support will guide them step by step through the GUI.
Equal-Ad-703@reddit (OP)
I think the concept of a GUI being separated from the program is enough to confuse a majority ("tfs a Gooey?"). But Linux Mint has done an Awesome work for separating you from the terminal nonetheless.
I've used several distros for a lot of time and I have learned that the terminal is actually faster and more comfortable than moving your mouse. But the reason I can see it is bc i have learned it. Terminal is fast, but mouse is intuitive. This is an remark my brother made:
"Why would I use Linux when I have to LEARN it first?"
KnowZeroX@reddit
Even in windows, gui being separate from the program is a thing. Especially when it is system processes or some registry setting. And people download 3rd party GUIs that do these stuff for them. Sometimes it would even be a bat file which is effectively no different than terminal sh files on linux
Of course for new applications, it isn't uncommon for there being a gui version and non-gui in part because linux is also used a lot for headless servers. But usually when you install the gui version, the non-gui one is a dependency. Some stores like Discover only display the GUI apps to remove confusion
The needing to know the terminal to use linux is a myth based on what linux was a decade ago or unless you intentionally pick a distro that makes it harder for you. Not that it is bad to know the terminal but it isn't required anymore
sublime_369@reddit
You're a programmer - be the change you want to see.
bbatu@reddit
So you want more GUI tools? Quite rambly for a programmer considering you could say this in a single sentence.
DrBaronVonEvil@reddit
No need to apologize for your use or language, I think you sound very reasonable. I occupy a position too where I'm personally happy to pick over forums and search results to solve a tech issue, but I'm not deep enough into IT where I feel like I'm separated from a normal user's expectations.
My most recent "this is actually insane for an end user experience" was getting Guitarix working. If I'm an "average user", my thinking would be to go to the Discover Store, search for the app and hit download. In this case, Guitarix shows as a Flatpak first so that's what you'd likely pick up.
Boot up the program after and you'll be met with a "mlockall" error and the program doesn't work right. Already, most people I know would be stuck and might give up.
Further, my attempts to go to the subreddit and discord pages for my distro with this problem were met with...kinda nothing? One guy was semi helpful, but ultimately I didn't get much feedback.
After troubleshooting, I found out that my user profile needs to be part of the Audio and Realtime groups, and there are some tweaks to the Realtime group's priority that needed to happen. That involves some terminal commands and the creation of a brand new config file specifically for my Realtime group.
That's what I generally think is "unacceptable" for normal use. There's no such thing as special permission groups for multimedia programs getting access to memory in Windows or Mac land. Or if there is, it's a GUI page in your settings app. But normally, you'd just download Guitar Rig and start it up.
I'm also incredibly happy with my Linux distro and would never switch, but we are kidding ourselves if we think these types of necessary tweaks prior to using applications are normal or okay to the rest of the public.