Yeah, cars around here are definitely cheaper than they used to be. Dealer lots are having better inventory too. My Acura dealer has a ton of cars on it. Things are catching up.
Makes me glad I sold my car a few months ago at a profit.
PPP will be a fantastic case study of just how easy it is to abuse government assistance.
A massive portion of the money went to people who didn’t need it all & instead just were able to pocket it & buy new homes, car, boats, etc.
Any business owner with a shred of ethics wouldn’t have taken money they didn’t need to ensure their employees were paid in full.
The people that took advantage of the system are just as at fault as the folks mismanaging the funds.
The requirements were so weak it was a joke.
As I understood it (and I could be wrong), you basically just had to use the money for payroll, that’s it. So business owners took money, used it for payroll, and then kept the money they were already going to use for payroll as extra profit.
I sat through jury duty recently. Trust me the government cares and US attorneys are coming after people who abused this system.
Not even wealthy people abusing it, people making poverty wages making up fake businesses and claiming COVID sick days with shady tax shops and getting returns larger than their yearly income.
My boss got 500k and he put about 25% of it in savings and spent the rest on his son’s wedding and bought himself a new boat (after selling the older one). That wedding was so expensive that he spent 11k just on flowers.
Who’s saying they don’t? Government assistance will be abused everywhere by every potential recipient class.
Some people actually need it, others don’t, but the people on food stamps aren’t buying a GT3RS with their handouts lol
This is always the answer. Interest rates are way up from 2022 as we all know. Even those of us with additional cash want to keep it in market, or at least in a money market account, especially as it approaches 5.25% return risk free. The fact that lending terms are so unfavorable leads to decline in the sale of these high end cars and the softening of prices. You see this same effect in the housing market, in that when interest rates come back down, the demand for these things will prop up or increase prices again (although that's a separate box of problems - specifically zoning / no land in desirable areas prop up the market to do lack of supply).
Personal anecdote: Yes, we are seeing GT3s decreasing in prices; yes I am tempted; but I always hesitate to plop down ~$200K in cash just to own one of these, especially when I have a TTS at a financing term that won't be seen for the next 10 - 20 years unless we have another MAJOR downturn.
Thank god, and not surprised.
Was looking at a C7 a few months ago and they wanted 60k for it, for just a normal C7 stingray, it was ridiculous. Stayed on the lot for months too. I was actually tempted to get it too, but at that price why would I buy a used, 6 year old car above its sale MSRP when I can just order a new C8 for nearly the same cost.
I'm seeing where lower trim early C7 model years are in the low-40s around me now after typically being 50k+ after Covid. Really hoping that trend continues because I'm really considering one to replace my Miata in a year or 2.
When the C8s first came out pre-covid you could buy a brand new C7 1LT with a manual for mid 40s. C8 was SUPPOSED to start at 60K. Prices are dropping, but in the recent past, a 5 year old C7 with milage should be depreciated by 40-50% from what it sold for new.
Look though [threads like thi](https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-general-discussion/4322298-new-c7-corvette-1lt-for-50k-otd.html)s from that time period and it's well documented that for a time BRAND NEW C7 Stingrays were available from dealers and were advertised at those prices. I came really close to buying one and still have regrets I didn't. These were all 1LT with little to no options, and better equipped ones were obviously more, even on the used market.
Really is insane what happened with pricing. I sold my FoST early pandemic when I thought used prices couldn't peak any higher (I was very wrong). Not holding my breath for C7s and used prices overall to get back to what I think should be reasonable, but I can hope.
I test drove a focus st a couple of months ago just for fun at my local Ford dealer. It had been clearly modded by a young kid, lowered, aftermarket rims, blow off valve, racing clutch ect. Had 110 thousand miles and they were asking $17k. I couldn't believe it when they said that, I actually laughed. A clean version of the same car with less miles a few years ago was worth 11-14k.
A lot of them have depreciated though. My 5yo C7 grand sport had an MSRP of $89k, so the original owner paid $99k including tax and fees. If I were to sell it today it would be worth about $50k, so exactly 50% depreciation.
Nice, that was my thought process as well. The ND might be my favorite out of everything I've owned so far but the cramped driving positon (for me) and NVH are finally wearing on me with a 60 mi round trip daily. Also miss having a V8.
I wish I still had my ND, but the hurricane had other plans for it. For me at 5-11 the ND felt fine space wise but the Vett c5 onward definitely are more practical. Shipping boxes in our c5 is easy. In the Miata it sucked u less it stuck out last the roof line lol.
The V8 power is amazing. If I needed to scoot the ND did ok, but you had to plan move farther out. Vett it’s way more immediate. The downside to the Vett is the gas bill, that Miata was stupid efficient even at wide-open throttle. Our C5 does have noise, vibration, and harshness but it’s also an older vehicle. Never vetts are much better about it.
You ever get a chance to drive a C4? I had the opportunity to get one for $4000 several years ago, but because of the weather I couldn't test drive it and then the deal ended up falling through. I've been kicking myself for it ever since. It was an 89 with the true six speed and a fully functional digital dash.
Only reason I’m holding out for the C7 is the manual. Although a couple of shops are working on swap kits for the C8. Might eventually buy a C8 with a blown trans and make it unique.
I’m so curious how a shop could put together a manual swap kit for the C8. I imagine they’d have to remove the Great Wall of Buttons, but that’s supposedly integral to the suspension of the car, according to Corvette engineers.
>I’m honestly surprised by the motives and lengths some people will go to for ~~3 pedals~~ a bit of fun.
Ftfy. I know I'm going to be spending a decent amount of time in my cars, why not try to make the experience actually enjoyable? I can always borrow my SO's CVT Corolla if I want to be reminded of how a toaster feels.
I’m talking about a manual conversion here, and the cost of that, as well as the potential problems that could happen later, doesn’t seem worth it to me
Depends what you're looking for. If you want a used car, an automatic Miata or MR2 will typically be much cheaper for a good condition car than the equivalent automatic, with a straightforward swap. Let alone getting into higher end stuff. It might be 15k to convert a 360 Modena, but you're saving probably closer to 40k by getting an "F1" gearbox instead of the gated, and you can sell it for near OEM-gated money afterwards if the swap was done well.
And if you want a newer exotic but manual, well, you can either have it swapped by a professional outfit, satisfy yourself with something niche (provided you can find or import it), or spend your 100k+ and then look at it every day being reminded that you didn't quite get *what* you wanted.
It's the same reasoning behind why some people buy off-the-shelf PC's at BestBuy, and some people research & build a system to their desired spec, just tack on a few zeros at the end of the pricetag
driving on public roads, having 3 pedals is way more conducive to "fun" than sub 3s 0-60 times or, as the other guy put it, burgerking lap times.
for the average car enthusiast, said "fun" is the main reason to purchase a sports car, as that's a category/niche that intrinsically sacrifices literally everything else in the name of either fun or performance (rarely both intersect.... in u public road setting :))
so it's not "a great length" for an enthusiast to "go for 3 pedals" in car that has only 2, to increase said "fun" on public roads without putting himself and others at significant risk of bodily harm
of course, said enthusiast, could also not buy a car that has absurd amounts of power for public roads if that were the goal, and get a Machine Inconspicuously Admired for no Torque but Awesome
Yeah, but I’m not gonna have a engineer a whole new center console and I’m not gonna deal with problems related to that down the line. That is why I don’t really like manual swaps in general, as it can be done poorly.
i agree, that's why i buy manual cars rather than spend obscene amounts of money and time on swapping, things that would've afforded me a better manual car in the first place :)
Your name sums up this idea perfectly.
This is at least… at least a 100k job.
You need a brand new transmission that fits (maybe 05 Ford GT [30k])
You need to cut a hole in the body shell and hope you don’t totally screw the rigidity. So then all that math isn’t cheap.
Then we have to engineer touting for cables, putting another pedal into the already small pedal box.
Theeeeeeen you have to make the whole ecu not freak out because it can’t talk to the old DCT and smooth out all the random can bus info that the trans is responsible for.
Remember back to the manual 430 Scud and how much of a pain those guys had, and they got to use the stock transmission.
0% chance and waaay more expensive than 20k.
I agree that it’s a ridiculous job but you’re making it sound much worse than it is.
Aftermarket trans axles exist and are plentiful. Cutting a 2”x1” hole in the body for shifter cables is not going to affect rigidity, nor will it require engineering. Just put a small metal plate around it if you’re so worried.
Engineer routing for shift cables? They are shift cables, just put them anywhere. Glue them if you have to.
Aftermarket pedal boxes exist and are plentiful.
The ECU thing is easy to sort out as well, as long as the car’s ecu has been cracked and is programmable.
Still a $100k job, absolutely, but none of those things are beyond a competent speed shop’s abilities.
The real issue is that the C8 isn’t the sort of car where a manual makes it better. C7, absolutely, but the C8 is a better car with a high tech DCT
More enjoyable to drive. The C8's biggest feature is it's speed, and performance. It doesn't seem to have the same hooligan about it as the front engined models. It is harder to modify, harder to do skids and drift in, harder to just generally be a menace to society in. Much better for setting Burgerking Lap times or whatever. Whereas a C7, being Front Engine/Rear Wheel Drive is much more of a Hooligan car. The C8 seems to be much more grown up and more of a fast car than a fun car.
You are correct about the 911 being the same thing, but somehow 911s still seem to have the same hooligan about them, despite being Rear Engined.
They can’t. There’s no way to drop a manual into a C8 without severely compromising the structural integrity of the car. GM engineers badly wanted to make it happen, but it can’t be done without breaching the central tunnel. Source: dated a GM engineer who worked on the C8.
Shortly after we started living together he got moved to the GMT T1xx (and upcoming T2xx) programs. I could tell ya more about the ZR2 Bison and Escalade V and the future of Chevy/GMC Trucks than I can about the Corvette to be honest.
The owner at the company I was working for at the time had one of the first Escalade V that were delivered. I just wonder if it is the last swan song of that type of vehicle, because you're right.. by all measures it is absolutely insane. I wish I had gotten to ride in it, but honestly I don't think I would want to take the responsibility to drive it haha. Beautiful, elegant, smooth, yet such an absolute monster.
Yeah it’s utterly insane. The sound it makes when you floor it is just… wow… the first time my ex took me out for a spin in it he punched it while merging onto the highway and I just burst out manically laughing because the sensory experience was just so completely and utterly overwhelming. I never got to drive it, but riding in it made me know I need to have one someday. Just another car related thing to add to the bucket list.
I'm really enthused by this newly acquired knowledge that a homosexual man can help Government Motors develop new products for American consumers in the year 2023!
i have zero faith in GM but there have been great men throughout history that have been gay. there always has been and always will be. so don't talk shit on them for that.
Yes, but the specific discussion is the wall of buttons. If it's structurally important then that's fine, you fit the shifter to the left of it. The linkage would also all be somewhere under the console meaning it's still completely unaffected by the wall of buttons.
The... The same place as the current transmission? What would the wall of buttons in the middle of the cabin have to do with a transmission for a rear-mid engine car?
Take this with a grain of salt, but you could put the shifter through the cup holder and kink it to the left so the knob doesn't conflict with the HVAC happy trail. I think the bigger problem by far would be finding a suitable transaxle to bolt up to the engine in that space. Mid engine layouts definitely create a lot of packaging challenges similar to FF layouts.
This was an after market discussion. The above commenter was talking about waiting for one with a blown transmission to try to swap and looking at potential kits.
Take this with a grain of salt, but you could put the shifter through the cup holder and kink it to the left so the knob doesn't conflict with the HVAC happy trail. I think the bigger problem by far would be finding a suitable transaxle to bolt up to the engine in that space. Mid engine layouts definitely create a lot of packaging challenges similar to FF layouts.
There’s no way to do the swap. I previously dated a GM engineer who worked on the C8 and we had this discussion multiple times (I’m a manual purist for a sports car). Drilling into the central tunnel will significantly impair the structural integrity of the vehicle. The GM engineers badly wanted to find a way to make a manual C8 happen, but they just couldn’t do it and have the car survive crash tests due to breaching the central tunnel being required to make a manual transmission work.
I highly doubt one of the largest automakers in the world couldn’t figure out how to fit a manual in the corvette and pass crash tests. I assume it was strictly a money thing.
Doubt all ya want, you’d still be wrong. The central tunnel is made from carbon fiber for weight reduction and also its structural properties like insane tensile strength. Puncturing a carbon fiber central tunnel to allow for the mechanical components of a manual transmission would massively reduce its structural rigidity and therefore negatively effect it's ability to survive the forces involved in a high speed crash.
All I’m saying is that there are currently mid engine cars with manual transmissions, so obviously it can be done. They started off with a design where it can’t be done, but obviously that was avoidable. Once again, to act like they couldn’t have built the C8 with a manual just makes zero sense.
I'm confused on how you don't understand this. Yes, the car could have been designed for a manual, but they opted to build this reinforced tunnel in the middle for better rigidity and structural support in an accident. Because of that development decision, the manual transmission is a no-go.
It can be done. As usual Reddit upvotes nonsense confidently spoken by people who don't know what they're talking about.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28531606/2020-chevy-corvette-manual-transmission/
There. That's the C8's actual chief engineer, not some Redditor who totally 'dated a C8 engineer'.
The reason it doesn't have a manual is demand. That's it.
I did.
I swear this sub is hellbent on narrative. Here's the bit that matters:
>Juechter's deputy, chief engineer Ed Piatek, told us that those are challenges the Corvette's ace engineering team would've happily overcome.
>Piatek said that the real thing that put the team over the edge in their decision was a lack of customer demand.
It's demand. End of story.
My point is that because they made the decision to use this tunnel, a manual transmission swap would compromise the structural integrity of the car. Not arguing why they chose to do this tunnel design in the first place, just stating that they did and it has affected the ability to manual swap it.
The poster said gm engineers wanted to make it a manual, but couldn’t. Which is silly because many other brands have done just that. I’m not arguing that a manual swap could be done, because it sounds like it can’t for structural reasons, just that they could have started with a manual in mind from the beginning.
???? Wanting to and being able to, and being given the resources to, are all completely different. It's still a mass produced car, there's constraints and budgets.
> could have started with a manual in mind
Manual take rates for the C7 were abysmal. They're gonna design for what sells first, and then try to work in pet projects.
Yep. That’s exactly what I said, and yet you still can’t seem to understand that GM engineers were not able to do it given the constraints they had. They couldn’t make it happene because they were shut down by bean counters who decide R&D budgets for vehicles. Had they been given an endless supply of money, I’m sure it could’ve been done. But if GM, with the BILLIONS of dollars they poured into the C8, couldn’t figure out how to do it in a way that is safe, reliable, and cost effective, Joe Blow sure as hell isn’t figuring it out in the back of his shop.
At the end of the day these vehicles are made and sold for profit. They’re not pet projects that exist to appease (at most) 10% of an already small and niche vehicle segment. You seem to have trouble understanding that.
What aren't you getting? They probably could have, but it would have probably been an expensive development cost, possibly way over budget. Every car design is different and for whatever reason their design didn't allow for an MT.
Dude, you’re being dense as a brick. No. They could not build the C8 with a manual using the weight reduction technologies they employed in its construction. You’re just wrong.
Relax he’s not wrong. If manual was a requirement then they would have designed around it, they decided not to.
“GM Engineers really wanted to” is as good as saying fuck all. If direction isn’t to design for a manual, even if it’s possible, it’s not happening unless upper management wants it to happen. This isn’t some indi shop building cars, it’s fucking GM.
I think it’s more that they would need essentially a new support structure for the car. An analogy would be “they could build a manual, but they could only put it in a 4 door model so they’d have to build a whole new car”. Central tunnel is the same way, car would have to be redesigned to the point they’re engineering for another vehicle.
The c8 corvette would have to be turned into a car drastically different from the c8 as we know it to be a manual. At that point is it a c8?
I don’t think any of you understand. If they wanted a manual in the C8, they could’ve have one. They would have just needed to start designing for it at the beginning. Someone already posted an article proving me right btw.
He is wrong though. He’s acting like some backwoods shop can just drop a MT into a C8 no problem, and that GM was just lazy about it.
The simple fact is that GM engineers tried very hard to make it happen while meeting budgetary constraints set by upper management. But they couldn’t make it happen. There was a true effort to give the C8 a MT but it’s not worth the cost associated with drastic redesigns (and testing) of parts which are key to the structural integrity of the entire vehicle.
Playing devils advocate, I suspect they could make it work. However, with design constraints due to the cost of a heavy redesign of the central tunnel, just for a manual, I suspect the cost couldn’t be justified.
With an endless amount of cash pretty much any engineering problem can be solved. But that’s a pipe dream existence if you’re not factoring in economic realities. I suppose I could revise my statement to say, there’s no economically feasible way to make a MT happen in the C8 when the take rate for MTs would likely be under 15% over the entire generation’s life span.
Which is the point... It's an economic decision, not an engineering decision.
I'd argue it's actually relatively trivial to add a MT to the C8 (but costs a lot/is more complex), but GM didn't want to deal with that.
Economically, only adding a AT was the better choice. Long term, I won't buy an AT corvette, so we shall see how it pans out for the brand, but the last Vette I'll buy is a C7.
No disagreement - the issue is more so the used market/enthusiast market.
If corvettes die out of the enthusiast market and slowly over time all that's left are ATs, you'll likely see people shift away towards other vehicles.
In fairness, that may become a moot point due to electrical vehicles, regulation etc - but I'm just saying for myself and many others - we won't buy an AT corvette. The end result over a long time horizon is a reduction in the performance aspect of the brand.
Again, certainly may not happen, but it's more about the long term market as opposed to the short term (which again, is selling fine).
It's extremely telling that your reaction is to hurl your own feces.
>your backwoods Carolina shop and mind business that’s more your speed.
Yet again, you just start making claims about things you know absolutely nothing about. It's hilariously obvious you haven't traveled much.
Stop making assertions without knowledge.
Hard to try that move when you:
1. Have made claims directly refuted by the real C8 engineers
2. Can't help yourself but reply with juvenile nonsense
3. Are replying to someone who has *not* made baseless, nonsensical, claims
It isn't a monocoque. It's a backbone chassis. The only carbon fiber on the the central tunnel is closing off the bottom.
>That makes the tunnel a crucial link. It is a three-sided aluminum square tube, with an open bottom. For the C8 Corvette, Chevrolet applies a carbon fiber panel to the bottom to close that tunnel off, boosting its strength by 10 percent.
https://www.popsci.com/corvette-stingray-supercar-chassis-engineering/
Previous quote from you:
>The central tunnel is made from carbon fiber for weight reduction and also its structural properties like insane tensile strength.
That is not true. The central tunnel is aluminum. There is also a carbon fiber panel that closes it up. You added "carbon fiber reinforced" in an attempt to shield that you were wrong. The tunnel is aluminum.
It's also not a monocoque. It's open roof and the rigidity comes from the central tunnel, not the outer shell. Your link doesn't support your claim that it's a monocoque.
Oh I know edits are visible and I’ve edited various comments in this thread to fix grammatical and spelling errors. But I haven’t edited for content as you’re claiming.
I don't believe any of this.
The actual reason is demand. Engineering issues are solvable.
Source? The actual chief engineer of the C8
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28531606/2020-chevy-corvette-manual-transmission/
Frankly I couldn’t give two shits if you believe it, bud. There’s a difference between what is approved media spin and what the truth is. Now go pound sand and waste your time with someone who thinks you’re relevant.
>Now go pound sand and waste your time
Or how about you stop wasting our time by pretending you're an authority in a field that you clearly have zero knowledge in.
The C7's auto take rate was rock-bottom. Clearly the issue is demand, as per people who actually have engineering knowledge with the C8.
I thought I remembered reading engineers stated they could do a manual C8 but that would result in a trunk space that was ever too slightly small to carry golf clubs. Couldn’t have that, apparently.
There is truth to the “must be able to fit golf clubs” requirement for the corvette and also for Cadillac sedans/coupes (well when they still made Coupes). I never heard anything about it impact the availability of a MT spec C8, I’m fairly certain it primarily case down to 1) preserving structural integrity of the carbon fiber central tunnel; 2) excessive cost of redesigning, testing, and manufacturing a MT spec which would have been fundamentally different in its design and construction than the DCT spec.
The engineers when speaking to the media had stated outright that the enlarged trunk meant there was no room to correctly route the linkage to the driver. A MT shouldn’t require a whole lot more engineering since it doesn’t need to be as physically large as an automatic (which has more parts to it) and although not many bought the MT the last few generations, that comes down to the financial side of things. Dealers mark them up because they can, and the average age of a new car buyer is going up due to us having 40* years of wage stagnation and rapidly rising cost of living. Young enthusiasts just can’t afford the fun fast cars they used to buy. Hence why the majority of Corvette owners are old.
I honestly couldn’t tell you that. I knew the e-ray existed and a powertrain test mule was camo’d with an outer shell that looked like an equinox before it went public, but my ex wasn’t really involved with vehicle electrification so I never heard much about it except “yeah, it exists.”
It was basically the worst kept secret at MPG according to my ex. But it’s pretty brilliant on GM’s part, nobody is gonna take pictures of an equinox that gets spotted with an “M” plate but you bet your ass people will flock to any Corvette that has an “M” in the center of its license plate.
GM has said no one was interested in designing and making a manual for the C8 with the projected number of manuals they'd sell. Nothing about structural integrity.
Source: Lead engineer for Corvette.
Try again, bud:
“Executive chief engineer Tadge Juechter told Car and Driver that part of the reason is the desire to not breach the mid-engine C8's central tunnel: ‘That tunnel is the backbone of the car, and if you break the backbone, you lose a lot of structural efficiency. With a shifter, you have to have a big hole in the tunnel for the linkage to go through.’”
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28531606/2020-chevy-corvette-manual-transmission/
>When I asked Corvette lead engineer Tadge Juechter at the reveal of the 2020 Corvette on Thursday if there is any chance the manual will come back, he replied simply: “No.”
>Juechter said a manual-equipped Corvette wouldn’t sell well enough to make it worth a supplier’s effort to develop.
>“We couldn’t find anybody honestly who’d be willing to do it. Because just like the automatic, the DCT, it would have to be a bespoke manual,” Juechter said. “It’s low volume, very expensive. The reason is it’s a low-volume industry. That industry is dying—building manual transmissions.”
https://jalopnik.com/get-over-it-the-c8-corvette-is-not-getting-a-manual-ge-1836639481
ZF was willing to make it, I can’t link you to an article. But I know for a fact that ZF was in discussions with GM to supply a MT for the C8 and did in fact supply some for test mules that rolled around Milford. GM nixed it due to costs associated with redesigns necessary to maintain structural integrity in a crash.
Hmm, who to believe, you or the guy in charge?
It's simply not worth the cost. Only 25% of corvettes were manual, and with a DCT they estimated it'd be more like 10%.
No one wants to make 3000 one-off transmissions a year.
Huh… wow… almost like if you had read my other comments you’d see that I literally said that the low take rate on MTs was a factor. The primary factor was the inability to cost effectively reengineer the central tunnel. This was only an issue because bean counters at GM decided that the take rate wouldn’t be worth the cost of development and testing, even if they charged extra for a MT in order to try to recoup some of the costs.
It’s almost as if designing cars is a complex task which involves integrating multiple engineering realities, consumer needs, and budgetary realities. I get that might be a bit too complex for you to grasp since you seem to adamantly insist that take rate was the only reason it didn’t happen. Had they been able to find a way to cost effectively put one in, they would have. They tried their damndest to do it because they knew it would be controversial and would piss off a lot of enthusiasts.
Got a link to a shop working on a C8 swap? I can't find anything, and based on the architecture of the car I really don't think this is going to be possible at a price that makes any kind of sense in a $60-90,000 car.
>at that price why would I buy a used, 6 year old car above its sale MSRP when I can just order a new C8 for nearly the same cost.
Car prices are all over the place. In my area, I can get into a gently used 2020s Benz under $40k, but a new RAV4 or Highlander is $50k or more. But at the same time a used 370Z is nearly $40k and the new Z starts at $40k.
2014-2020 Z's with 30-60k miles are going for their respective MSRP around here (base, sport touring, Nismo etc).
Kicking my ass for dithering on a 2016 sport touring that was like 60% of MSRP back in 2019.
Nah... very minor styling refresh, different colours and an oil cooler added for 2013. They're also near MSRP, just a bit lower perhaps as they tend to have more miles due to age.
It’s so depressing, was really hoping to purchase a gently used mid sized suv and the price pretty much any reputable brand is through the damn roof. I’m seeing some selling for more than brand new..
Your answer is in your question… it’s because anyone can go get a C8 new and there’s a limited amount of cherry C7s out there. Intrinsically if the number of buyers of the C8s meets or exceeds output and the number of C7s buyers stays the same or grows the price of C7s will grow too - assuming no substitutability in other sports cars. It’s a function of supply and demand.
The real question should be, what’s wrong with last gen cars being worth more than new cars? Other than the fact that the manufacturers aren’t capturing the delta in price…
Art appreciates because of money laundering
Houses appreciate because the land appreciates due to no better alternatives
Cars depreciate because you use them and they wear out. While repairable they’re consumable goods and eventually the engine, tires, motors, etc all break down.
Post covid car appreciation had nothing to do last gen being better or appreciating and only had to do with taking advantage of a supply shortage and overstaying their hand.
Hey man, that was a 1-of-845 example of a silver 2017 Stingray Coupe with the 2LT package and an auto. The last real ‘Murican ‘Vette before they put the engine in the middle like a bunch of weird Europeans. That dealership doesn’t want tire kickers or low-ballers, they know what they’ve got.
This is what happened to me. I sold my c7, and by the time I was ready to get another one they were so close to a c8 price I just saved a bit more and got a new one.
I don’t understand the value proposition of the pricing on used enthusiast stuff.
There are a lot of factors that feed into it. Part of it is still supply chain issues for new stuff; while production is starting to normalize, it isn't back to pre-Covid levels yet and there's going to be a lag in prices. Then there's inflation, which masks depreciation to an extent.
For enthusiast cars though, there's an entirely separate factor: it may simply be impossible for a niche enthusiast to find exactly what they want in a new car. Cars are getting bigger, more tech-focused, moving away from N/A engines (or ICE altogether), manuals are dying, etc. Not everyone wants that. The C7 vs. C8 is a perfect example: the C8 is an objectively better car, but it's so different from previous generations that it may as well carry a different name. It's bigger, more GT-like, and there's no manual. Some people simply don't want that, even if the price is similar.
OK, I realize inflation is a thing - but I bought a barely used 2015 C7 w/Z51 for $50k from a dealer in 2016 or so. The car market went insane during the pandemic.
These cars are super underrated. Real manual, enough cooling for track use, you can work on it yourself since it's not complex or packaged all insane like, parts are not too hard to find, 30MPG on the highway...
I'd still have mine if it wasn't for the move to a place with winter and fewer tracks.
My Focus RS has depreciated about 9% since late 2021. If I sold it today I’d loose about $8-9k. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter….. Cars are depreciating assets anyways.
I like it a lot. Sometimes I wish I had the power of my old V8 Mustang, but this thing handles so much better. I also sometimes wish I had a nicer interior or sound system (I have the lowest trim ST1). But overall, it doesn't get much better for a fun daily driver/smiles per dollar. I can't think of anything I could replace it with for the money, so I'll be keeping it a while. Mines pretty low mileage, but totally reliable for me.
Of course check market for how bad depreciation will hurt you in the long run. that’s being smart, thinking a depreciating asset will be an investment is a fools game
Yeah, I don't have money for high-end anything. Like, the new Lambo countach. I figure that will accrue some value as a garage queen.
But me, best I can hope for is some retention. So like, Toyota Tacoma. Not good at anything aside from some off-road prowess, which I rarely use. And reliability.
>like, Toyota Tacoma. Not good at anything aside from some off-road prowess, which I rarely use. And reliability.
And the rest of the time:
1. Dogshit mileage
2. Dogshit interior
3. Dogshit power
4. Dogshit auto transmission
5. Dogshit seating position
Reliability is a major selling point, and I guess it's working well for Toyota. They still make the 70 series Land Cruiser, for places where reliability and ease of maintenance is a matter of life and death. Ford, Chevy, and Ram fans all have joke about each other's trucks breaking down, except Toyota. That being said, I agree that the current gen Tacoma and 4Runner are pretty overrated.
Reliability at the cost of mpg and upfront pricing is not a good reason to buy a Tacoma over other midsize options (in my book). But yes, as a Ford owner, I can't talk too much shit.
When it comes to a truck and using it for its intended purpose, reliability is the *only* thing that matters. If someone’s out in the forest with no signal, they’re not thinking about power or mpg. They need to know that their transportation will reliably bring them back to safety under all circumstances
If they're in the mountains with no signal, they should have a plan to get out with the help of radio and satellite comms in the worst case scenario...especially in the winter.
I have a feeling that a lot of new Tacoma buyers are brand loyal customers upgrading from an older model, or just people who know of their solid reputation. They test drive a new one without comparing to the competition and figure it's good enough. Even though it's outclassed in pretty much every area besides dependability.
I got a 2020 Taco TRD Off-Road 4x4 at the beginning of the pandemic because it was a stupid-good deal and I’d never had a “new” car before.
I wanted a reliable, durable vehicle in my driveway to offset the other two slots that were usually filled by used sports cars and oddball imports with hard-to-find parts.
Long story short, I found that truck to be exactly what toyota-enthusiasts seem to like, which also meant it was the most boring vehicle I’ve ever owned.
The only time it was exciting was when the HORRIBLE tuning of the auto transmission decided to cut power and lug the engine any time you needed to gun it to cross a break in traffic from a stop at a median, etc.
Despite having power on paper, the engine felt wheezy, like it was barely managing 200, let alone the nearly-300 claimed. (I attribute this to that godawful transmission for the most part, though)
Seriously, the truck could off road like a champ and haul as-needed, (the squishy off road suspension made towing cars on a trailer a bit exciting though) but outside of resale value and reliability, the truck was excruciatingly boring, gutless and had that FUCKING AWFUL AUTO TRANSMISSION.
I made sure my Toyota-loving friends never heard the end of it. It sucked at most of the things I look for in a vehicle, but it was practical, reliable and sold for more than I bought it for, so by Toyota-person standards it was perfect.
…that transmission though…I hated that transmission so much.
Fuck.
I rented one up in Montana and lemme tell you, that truck did not feel confidence inspiring. It was a decent vehicle but I would NOT choose to own one with my dollars.
So, power is honestly okay. You just have to wring it's neck to find it. But that auto trans tuning doesn't want that. The interior quality is, imo, fine. The infotainment and adaptive cruise is very behind the times.
Mileage, seating position, and visibility, yep. Dog shit.
I own a Chevrolet. Have owned Ford's. And Nissan's aren't what they used to be. For me, reliability trumps newest features or an objectively better vehicle when it comes to trucks.
Power in the mountains is terrible, especially considering literally every other midsize today. Now add bigger tires and 500 pounds of overlanding gear on it, and it's a slog. There are thousands of these rigs here in Washington.
The new gen is gonna be out soon, so this will no longer be a big deal for those buying new...
I too am in Washington. Though I'm not overland kitted up. These mountains, meh. Not a super big deal. Plus I live on the coast. So I'm typically with a couple hundred of sea level.
When I lived on Colorado and never got below 5000, that would be a bigger consideration.
Taco should lose way less % then most cars. Especially if it’s 4x4. Good detailing should preserve paint and condition, also holding more resale down the line.
You’re spot on. I’ll see Ferraris and McLaren for sale rather cheap relatively speaking. You look at the milage and they are about to hit a huge service. The maintenance is definitely a heck of a bill.
> t the end of the day, it doesn’t matter….. Cars are depreciating assets anyways.
I never understood this opinion. Yes the vast majority of cars depreciate, but for the average person it matters a lot whether their car depreciates 25% or 50% in five years. It's something that should be considered when you buy/own a car unless you plan to drive it until it falls apart and is ready for the junkyard
993s are starting to get expensive to refresh- the last few I’ve seen needed cams and rockers despite being low-mile and well-kept. It’s a fairly easy swap for a home mechanic but the engine out refresh will hit five figures pretty easily at a shop.
Those bills mean people don’t want to lose even more money.
I toyed with owning a 993 for a while until I started looking into service costs. $500 for plug wires alone and the head rebuilds scared me off. As much as I love the idea of owning an air-cooled car, the math suggested a 997.2 or 991.1 would provide more for my money.
If you want air-cooled, skip the 993. It’s too modern and not special enough to drive and suffers from modernitis.
964 RS America if you have to have a 3.6 and semi-modern handling. Otherwise, a 3.2 Carrera with 98mm high-compresssion pistons with a cam and chip change is exceptional and the most fun of the 74-89 cars.
Hagerty recently posted an article about those too: https://www.hagerty.com/media/market-trends/hagerty-insider/20-years-on-hondas-s2000-leads-the-pack/
I think people should read the article (lol)
This is specifically about how desirable, high trim cars like the GTs, Z06s, GT500s were selling for more than MSRP used. This is reversing and now they can be had for under their original MSRP. Hard to draw conclusions to the overall market which has seen some softening, but not like this.
The people who buy these particular cars are usually older and better off. They likely paid off their student loans years ago, if they ever had them at all.
You’re not wrong but don’t forget a lot of old people pay for their kids college and grandkids as well. I talked about my boss in another comment and he used 70k of the PPP he got to pay off his son’s graduate loans during the pause to avoid paying the interest on them.
Of course most people (89%) haven’t been making payments since the pause started.
The new SAVE plan will drastically lower most student payments. About $85k year household income and a family of 4 puts my payment at a very affordable $147/month.
You make 85k/year and bought a widebody 2023 Hellcat?
You’re right about the SAVE plan. But don’t forget it doesn’t impact people who went to graduate school and a lot of these are high income earners (lawyers, doctors, people with MBAs) with big salaries but also big monthly payments (anywhere from $1000 to $3000 or even more per month). So that will still have an impact on these people as well.
I’ve been thinking about this and I think there is a “resistance level”. High trim expensive cars like the Z06 and GT500 are bought by wealthy people who represent a smaller % of the overall population. Once they get one and play with it a bit, they get bored of it and want to sell quickly to avoid losing a lot of $. Once they have had that “satisfaction” and experience, their urge to buy one is no longer there, the car has been out for awhile and they see other people having them at meets/events so they sell it and go onto the next “hot thing”. However, when talking about regular muscle/pony (whatever you wanna call them) cars like Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers, they depreciate with age and mileage like most cars and have their value progressively going down. This is until they hit the “resistance level” or “attainable market territory” where they are attainable for the average buyer (of these cars) and that is when they reach around 20k of value I would say. This is why we see 10 year old used ones with 60k miles still sell for 17-20k (or more) cause “they have a V8” that these buyers want and justify for their purchase. I saw an article once like that which said Mustangs are great at holding value once they get older than 5 years.
I think they will go up in value but for that, you gotta wait until they reach classic status and when young people of today become older and can afford them. Data shows that most people stop following cars assiduously once they get 18 as they have to graduate highschool and go to college/get a job and have less time to read magazines and watch car news. So people always idolize the cars that were trendy when they were 15-18 years old. Once they get older and have more money, they go buy those.
Yeah, people talking about everything BUT the cars in the article, which doesn't mention lower tiered 911's, C7's or C8's - but almost all the comments are about other cars, and more than a few about relatively bog-standard commuters... and the depreciating they talk about is a tiny percentage. Those cars are still commanding as much as 50+% over MSRP. It's not like you are suddenly going to get one of these models at MSRP all of a sudden - it's just a recent and slight downward trend they hope continues.
I use Miata prices to figure out the market. Miatas are back to normal. Clean NA 5k, clean nb 7k, clean NC 10k. Beat NA and NB going for 2-3k tells me the market is returning.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1294759181139400/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Aae7e49b2-b847-419a-ae4b-a6c11cc8d0f0
heres another been up for 15 weeks...marked down from 10k still not selling. Sure theyd take 5 at this point.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/207711342271025/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Aae7e49b2-b847-419a-ae4b-a6c11cc8d0f0
6k obo- low mileage
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/607024244851985/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Aae7e49b2-b847-419a-ae4b-a6c11cc8d0f0
nb with a tad of rust
I live in SoCal. People are asking 10-12k for nice NAs. Have no idea what they actually go for but it feels like 7-8k and thats still gonna have 80k miles or more. Are people still asking the COVID prices but will take less? Is SoCal just an inflated market? I want to get an NA in about a year but the prices feel off.
SoCal and California car prices in general tend to be higher than the East coast and mid west market. Rust free is the biggest reason so many enthusiasts flock to buy CA owned vehicles just to bring them to the east lol.
There’s definitely really great deals out in SoCal but you have to be quick because they don’t last too long for the price. I’ve seen a ton of crashed “clean title” cars and project cars go for dirt cheap in Craigslist only to be sold within 10 hours or less.
Probably still a bit high. But that's also fairly close to precovid anyway in socal. Sunny places get better prices in verts lol. I'm in western PA. Everything is cheaper here. Motorcycles and convertibles go on sale in fall and winter too.
Just noticed this today. 2 months back a NA in OK condition (200k+ miles, but no obvious issues other than paint and other easy cosmetic issues) were listed for 6-8k around me. I’m seeing about half that now.
Why you buying a 20 year old car at a dealer? Lol that's fucking weird. Private party purchase price is what I'm speaking on. The dealer numbers are actually precovid on these too 😂. Gtfo.
>Beat NA and NB going for 2-3k tells me the market is returning.
yesss this is it right here -
"could broke ass me back in hs afford this car?" is my litmus test for gauging the used car market
Aww poor hagerty try can't over hype as many cars this year.. I'm laughing at some of the cars people bought as investments, as the prices on a lot have crashed all ready.
Tons of car lots in my general area. They had nothing on the lots 2 years ago. They’re all full now.
The local Kia dealerships have always had pretty interesting higher-end cars that they brought in from lease auctions and presumably from people that couldn’t afford payments on luxury cars - tons of AMG, Porsche, domestic muscle. Lately, the lots are absolutely flooded with C7 and C8 vettes.
Have been keeping an eye on 570S and 488GTB since covid times and prices have fallen a little bit, but are still above 2020 levels. That is, it's been three years and whatever depreciation these cars had has still been reversed- they've actually appreciated since 2020.
I think next 12 months will see significant movement but at the end of the day I'm not waiting too much longer to nab my dream car.
I’m in the same boat with GT3RS’s. They went up, then they came down, and now they are actually higher than they were 6-10 months ago but lower than they were when everything skyrocketed. I don’t want to pay near MSRP for a 6-7 year old car with 20K miles but I’m also growing impatient.
I've submitted my VIN on caravana and carmax to see how much they would give me and the most recent updates were like $10k less than a month ago. I know a few people who have seen the same drop off.
6/3 - $21,541
7/3 - $20,870
8/3 - $11,790
When I ordered my 2022 Macan S, the dealer warned me of the long wait time and suggested a used 2018 Macan S with 50,000km. The ask was 96k(cad). The 2022 I ordered came in just under 80k. I ended up waiting 8 months for the car to arrive, which I was fine with as I had a car to borrow in the meantime, however even if I didn't a rental car would have been cheaper than the 16k difference. Could have even bought a 7-8k used car, put a couple thousand into maintaining it and then sell it and get 75% back.
I'm all for the market coming down. Unless it's a very high value car that is being purchased, chances are it isn't safe guarded from depreciation. And those cars are hundred of thousands and out of reach for most of us here.
I take resale value into consideration while buying vehicles.
For instance, CarEdge says my F-150 will depreciate 24% in five years.
I bought this brand-new $81k truck it for $62k so I already got around 20% off. I had $3,000 off from Ford and the dealership advertised 3% below MSRP despite the shortage. Of course, I had to travel a long way to get it.
The depreciation value used by CarEdge does not take into consideration the discounts I receive at the dealership, they go by MSRP so that's even better for me.
My past three cars were all pick-up trucks, all had incredible resale value.
The car with the worst resale was the Benz. Overrated European junk.
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