New steam frame and future of linux phones
Posted by Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 123 comments
Sounds crazy? I know, but we literally got mobile hardware with mobile cpu and steamos, I literally see the moment drivers for it would become public custom linux mobile os would instantly use them. Firstly only limited firstly. But getting linux native drivers for mobile snapdragon are insane
trowgundam@reddit
This doesn't really have anything to do with the future of Linux Phones. The problem with Linux Phones is not being able to use your Banking app or all the other apps your buddies are using on Android and/or iPhone. Playing brand new PC games on your Phone isn't really a factor for normal people. At most they are playing Wordle or Sudoku.
deadlyrepost@reddit
No, the problem with Linux phones is that the radios and cellular protocols are more or less proprietary.
robertpro01@reddit
I would say, both are current issues.
FSAppliedPerson@reddit
Banking apps can all be used in the web browser.
D3xbot@reddit
Not necessarily. Some banks have feature-gated things to only run on their .apk and .ipsw apps on Android and iPhone. Can't do mobile deposit if I go to any of my banks' websites, even on a phone. When I asked, I got back generic "It's not on our roadmap" replies.
Some banks are now requiring users to have the app to log in, as that's how they do 2FA. Why not TOTP? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
FSAppliedPerson@reddit
I've never heard of a bank requiring a smart phone.
You may lose the ability to do mobile deposits but you can still check your statements, send and receive money and most other bank functions in the web browser.
ACSDGated4@reddit
well now you have heard of it. its very real. my bank in particular forces 2fa for every login, and that 2fa can only be done through their app, it cant be done through SMS.
FSAppliedPerson@reddit
What bank is that?
FSAppliedPerson@reddit
I eagerly await the response. But we all know he is lying.
onlysubscribedtocats@reddit
Argenta, Belgium.
You fucking conspiracy brains.
notdaria53@reddit
Isn't there an easy way to have a container spin up with android for each app which is somehow not compatible with open systems?
naknut@reddit
I think I heard Linus from Linus Tech Tips say you can sideload Android APKs on the Frame. If thats the case that would bridge the gap for those apps I think.
trowgundam@reddit
They are almost certainly using Waydroid. Banking apps (at least any of them worth their salt) will use the Android proprietary security API for secure storage. That will not work under Waydroid, so no it really isn't an option. Waydroid is really cool, but there are just some things it cannot (whether it is technical or legal) solve.
Hosein_Lavaei@reddit
You can use those banking apps with some hiding. But for a company to do this I don't think that's legal
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
I want phone with calling capabilities and normal os. Banking almost same in web
martinborgen@reddit
But banking often uses an app for two factor authentication though.
Ezmiller_2@reddit
I don't even use my bank's app.
Sheerpython@reddit
My bank FORCES ME to use the app. Can’t pay on pc without verifying using the app.
martinborgen@reddit
Yes similar here, though the app runs great, including on graphene and other android forks from what I understand
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
If they run great on graphene they would run on waydroid
martinborgen@reddit
Probably. I suspect some banks 'outsource' their security to Google while my bank thankfully handles their own security and therefore the app runs wherever.
trowgundam@reddit
But you aren't representative of like 90% of Smart phone users. It isn't feasible to make something in quantities to make them reasonably affordable for a microscopic niche. So unless you are willing to pay flagship prices for budget hardware, you aren't gonna get a Linux phone any time soon. And that sort of hardware ain't gonna be playing PC games at any reasonable level.
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
I'm waiting for custom os from fans. I was on linux waiting its year, i will continue
FastBodybuilder8248@reddit
Linux is a thing on computers because so many people need it for servers and infrastructure anyway. There isn’t the same need for Linux on mobile.
Affectionate-Mango19@reddit
Android is already a Linux distro (albeit a heavily modified and shitty one).
dcozupadhyay@reddit
When people say Linux phones they mean GNU/Linux. https://share.google/YNfgASWnutz1zdP5m
PureTryOut@reddit
Not necessarily, they could also mean postmarketOS which arguably isn't GNU.
MedicatedDeveloper@reddit
FYI you can get rid of those stupid shortened share.google links by following these steps..
Historical_Course587@reddit
I've been saying it since the PS Vita bombed - a PSP/Switch that could make phone calls and text would be an absolute juggernaut. Give it a real OS/broswer and the whole industry would move that direction.
SuchMaintenance1224@reddit
Well steam out here like Oprah with compatability/translation layers so yeehaw?
spartan195@reddit
They said you could load android apks right?
block_place1232@reddit
There is no point in using a banking app when the web version works perfectly fine
DeadlyGlasses@reddit
In India without banking apps you might as well live in a jungle. Majority (by majority I mean hundreds of millions of people) hardly use any cash any longer. Almost all of my transaction is through banking apps on phone and vast vast majority of shops don't even have cash change if you give them cash. It is used for 1 rupee to tens of thousands rupees of transactions (in dollar equivalent cents to a thousand dollar or even more if your limit of your card allows it).
Banking is the thing I use my phone on except of calling and chatting.
ghisnoob@reddit
Same here. Without a banking app you might as well have no bank at all.
ghisnoob@reddit
Good for you then. Here, we must use the app.
SoilMassive6850@reddit
Not sure how it is where you live, but most banks where I live tend to have moved authenticator apps which tend to make use of secure enclaves, attestation etc. for secrets management as default instead of hardware TOTP or a physical key list (the latter being often entirely discontinued). So even if you use web based banking you still need a phone app for authentication purposes unless you want to carry around a very clunky hardware authenticator.
gilium@reddit
Most of the banks I’ve used in the US still do SMS 2FA
Celaphais@reddit
"Authenticator? I barely know her" -My bank
DirtyMen@reddit
Brother i dont think any bank in Canada has proper 2FA. Still SMS and email.
dcozupadhyay@reddit
QR payment, check info, request statements, pay anyone within a minute, etc etc is the reason I use banking apps.
RoomyRoots@reddit
You are not thinking as a normal person. If you tell them that you can't access banking without working around a the browser, no one is buying it.
block_place1232@reddit
You're telling me people can't even navigate to a fucking webpage these days
No wonder linux hasn't caught on if that is a reason
dumpaccount882212@reddit
Its different in different places... so banking apps where you are, work as a webpage. Where I live they come with an identification software that requires either Apple backend or Googles or Windows. So you need something like MicroG for LineageOS for example.
You can ignore it, just not have it, but a huge chunk of modern life is then problematic.
Its just different in different places.
Erchevara@reddit
Heck, sometimes you can even run it with MicroG. For Android, there are a few levels to SafetyNet or whatever that's called nowadays, and some banking apps require the full level to work.
My dad had to get a new phone after his banking app stopped working on his phone running the full level because it didn't get security updates in a while.
RoomyRoots@reddit
First, not all bank work or give full features with webpages. Especially FinTechs are horrible at that and I had to change banks twice due to it.
And now Android is being a bitch by forcing apps to use their own ways to validate where the app came from and the permissions, this can break apps in custom ROMs, even Graphene that has a good workaround sometimes have issues with that (ex. Uber a couple of weeks ago).
Salt-Hotel-9502@reddit
Not all web banking apps are at feature parity with native apps.
recaffeinated@reddit
It's the authenticator, not the functionality
Dont_tase_me_bruh694@reddit
Biggest issue I've seen for Linux phones, in the US, is working VoLTE since all carriers here primarily use this now and are phasing out CDMA or whatever was used prior.
omniuni@reddit
I don't know why it says SteamOS. I suspect it's probably very, very slimmed down. All you really need is enough UI to confirm the connection to your PC.
jixbo@reddit
You're wrong, it can play games with proton + x86-arm layers...
https://youtu.be/356rZ8IBCps?si=ROQ7esyFhSwRUS47&t=793
omniuni@reddit
Why? Why would that even be a thing?
UnionterraUn@reddit
They're pitching playing most of your current gen steam library on the frame in a large scale flat screen environment and streaming to it for the high end.
Basically the common VR idea of replacing your monitor/TV
omniuni@reddit
I guess maybe if you're talking about very basic low poly VR games, because those are targeted at very low end devices.
jixbo@reddit
Why would you not make it possible to use the headset standalone?
Why not make it better you mean? You question doesn't make sense to me.
omniuni@reddit
It's not powerful enough to get a good experience without rendering on a PC, so it's just a waste of hardware.
CCGLP@reddit
I don't know why do you think this, with a device as the Oculus Quest (1) existing with a Snapdragon 835 running games as Beat Saber perfectly fine imho
omniuni@reddit
A visually reduced version of a game that is basically colored cubes.
CrazyKilla15@reddit
A very popular and enjoyable game. You do not need photorealistic graphics the demanding rendering accompanying them to have a fun and enjoyable VR game.
If anything you need the opposite because the hardware, standalone or PC, isnt there, because on PC you need to render for reach eye, which is twice the work compared to non-VR! And VR needs high refresh rates and high resolution screens
omniuni@reddit
It runs much better on PC.
CrazyKilla15@reddit
It also runs much better on a standalone headset that isnt over 6 years old. The Snapdragon 835 is from 2017. The Oculus Quest (1) is from 2019, 6 years ago.
Tech has improved. RAM is faster, Wi-Fi is faster, displays are better, compute is better, GPUs are better.
APsVitaUser@reddit
arm chips are mad powerful nowadays even when playing non native games
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
They say it's standalone vr with possibility to connect to pc
omniuni@reddit
Standalone with what? If it's got wireless display that would be nice, but it still doesn't need that much.
ListRepresentative32@reddit
Standalone as you don't need PC to play. Similar to meta quest, you can run games directly on the headset
omniuni@reddit
That would be a terrible experience and kill any potential for wireless battery life.
PureTryOut@reddit
You say that but that's literally how the Meta Quest works and it's very popular because of it.
jixbo@reddit
It plays games on its own:
https://youtu.be/356rZ8IBCps?si=ROQ7esyFhSwRUS47&t=793
omniuni@reddit
How incredibly useless.
Denis-96@reddit
linux phones you say.. whatif they make a steam phone like those gaming phones?
Suhapek@reddit
Linux phones already exist with different Linux ARM versions, google Pine phone
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
All of them have old socs
senikaya@reddit
I really want linux everywhere to succeed but right now drivers are not enough. I will surely not install my banking app on even the most perfectly working linux phone. Linux userspace security sucks balls IMO.
No, containerization is just a pretty illusion and virtualization do still have cracks. I'm sticking with grapheneOS for now.
I do hope this fuckass google stewardship to be benign long enough until year of the linux phone succeeds (while praying daily to every god I know)
CrazyKilla15@reddit
Do you log in to your bank on your web browser on Linux?
senikaya@reddit
no I use my banking app
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
Potentially safety of Linux phone would be the same as pc, if not use biometrics and encrypt everything
senikaya@reddit
no, different thread model as on PC you can opt into using all open source apps blessed by maintainers (at least for me) but on phone I need closed source apps (social and banking)
linux security model is not enough to accomodate this, even if root is locked down and app is container-ed
Eu-is-socialist@reddit
Yeah ... this means ABSOLUTELY .... ZERO !
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
Linux support for mobile arm64 based hardware backed by valve
Plebbitor69420@reddit
All of those things existed before, just not by valve.
CrazyKilla15@reddit
Thing:
Thing, Valve:
Eu-is-socialist@reddit
LOL. OK.
NOTHING !
jixbo@reddit
A well supported top flagship chip, by a big company? At least it will make supporting phones with that chip much easier.
Eu-is-socialist@reddit
LOL. NOPE
rebootyourbrainstem@reddit
Android uses the Linux kernel, basically. How are they getting their video drivers? Is it all just binary blob kernel modules?
PureTryOut@reddit
The kernel modules are all open-source, because that's what the license requires. However they're not mainlined and often terrible quality, and for a lot of components made to require a userspace component that is proprietary.
You can use Halium to use those in a non-Android environment but that's really a hack and not a proper solution. Instead mainlining properly and making it work with FOSS drivers like Mesa is preferred, but that's a lot more work.
CrazyKilla15@reddit
This is not really true, its a massive grey area that nobody actually enforces and likely would not hold up in court if anyone tried, with no direct court cases and similar precedent(Google vs Oracle, on APIs) suggesting the interpretation would not survive a court case.
If APIs are fair use why wouldnt "API but for binaries"/"ABI" be fair use? And if they werent it would destroy Linux and FOSS. Use wine, what is wine? An implementation of the proprietary dynamically linked windows libraries, which pre-existing windows applications use instead of the ones from microsoft. Use dxvk? Whats dxvk? A binary that replaces directx dynamically linked directx libraries. If that binary interface is copyrightable then these are dead, no fair use, no "clean room" defense, the interface itself is a copyright violation.
The interpretation only makes sense with a belief "nobody should ever use a proprietary anything ever, it is bad if people replace some parts of a proprietary app with a Free Software equivalent, instead of using or making a pure Free Software equivalent. No compromise, no incremental progress, give me pure Free Software or give me its death!!" I wonder who has such a hardline view and is a big proponent of the view that linking makes derivatives...
None of the US even matters anyway because in the EU such a requirement is in conflict with European law. API interfaces necessary for interoperability arent copyright-able at all per Directive EC 2009/24 recitals 10 & 15. Also worth reading the European Union Public Licence FAQ and ctrl-f "link" (after expanding the stupid collapsibles)
So even assuming the it was definitively true in the US, which it isnt, it is definitively false in.
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
So as postmarked os dev, is it game-changer even a little?
PureTryOut@reddit
Not really. It'll probably help devices with the same SoC a bit, but that's about it. The vast majority of ARM devices still have terrible boot procedures and non-mainlined components. It will be nice to have Steam on ARM though, some people have turned their old phones into light gaming devices which that would help with.
I'm hoping we can install custom stuff on the Steam Frame mostly, it'd be great to have full software freedom on there. Knowing the people that work on it, that shouldn't be much of an issue.
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
Why wouldn't you have software freedom on frame that use arch based os with kde?
PureTryOut@reddit
"Full software freedom" as in being able to install whatever I want, however I want. Arch-based is not the OS I want ;)
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
You mean custom os on that thing?
PureTryOut@reddit
Yes, like postmarketOS.
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
Yeah it's bad https://halium.org/
chrisoboe@reddit
Linux works on arm hardware since arm hardware exists. Basically every android device out there has native linux drivers.
They are usually of pretty horrible quality, will never be upstreamed and usually aren't portet to newer released.
Nobody can say yet if it'll be different for the frame.
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
Big chances it would
urgentapathy@reddit
No, not if the phone manufacturers don't make any behavioral changed. The fact that we have to use reverse engineer to make drivers for many things means that things will be the same as now. Also a lot of the software the phone manufacturer might use would not be under a freely distributable license by the part manufacturers. So they can't even if they want to (without paying extra money).
What we would need is stable hardware on new phones, but the phones that don't change much don't get sold.
Phone hardware is the wild west. Keep in mind that the phone manufacturer does not just get an off-the-shelf SOC and call it a day. They integrate support for other hardware. Your touchecreen, audio, radios, cameras etc may all be customized or distinct from another phone manufacturer's implementation.
And phone locking is still a thing. I knew going in that aftermarket support on my galaxy s22 would be slim to none. Samsung does what Samsung wants, and there are many other manufacturers that do similar.
CrazyKilla15@reddit
This thread was about the Steam Frame, which is not a phone.
oln@reddit
The SoC has been supported in the upstream kernel for a while and the gpu part supported in mesa as well, the challenge is more auxiliary hardware and device tree and boot support when it comes to phones.
The frame doesn't have to worry about phone network stuff though it does at least mean the SoC and the specific auxiliary components used in the frame may get decent support and testing in the upstream kernel and the freedreno/turnip driver in mesa may extra funding.
PlainBread@reddit
The big difference is whether it's a Snapdragon or a generic ARM64.
Snapdragon = Turnip drivers.
The Nintendo Switch emulation scene has already been pushing the boundaries of what ARM64 can do.
chrisoboe@reddit
ARM is the CPU architecture, not the GPU one. The frame uses a soc with arm CPU and andreno GPU.
Since qualcomms GPU drivers are a broken mess it's very likely that the steam frame will use the turnip drivers as base.
PlainBread@reddit
I deleted my comment before you posted yours because I remembered them saying something about a custom AMD APU and got confused.
It could be a Snapdragon ARM64 running the CPU side of things but integrated AMD GPU running the graphics side of things.
chrisoboe@reddit
That would be amazing. But i don't think thats the case.
I've read some where that valve payed alyssa Rosenzweig. She is known for her reverse engineering and open source gpu driver work. Valve propably wouldn't contract her if they went with amd.
oln@reddit
Alyssa works for Intel now but it's quite likely valve is contracting someone else to work on the adreno driver in mesa.
A_Canadian_boi@reddit
This is the biggest thing they announced, IMO. SteamOS on ARM is insane, especially since they have apparently made an AMD64 gaming translation layer for it. Snapdragon Steam Deck when?
DragonSlayerC@reddit
They didn't make the translation layer; FEX has been a thing for some time. Valve has been providing the FEX team with more funding and support though, similar to what they did with WINE, DXVK, vkd3d, etc. that are all now part of proton.
eugoreez@reddit
I see many people miss the point on this SteamOS on Arm. Obviously handheld is where this is beneficial, why the hell people straight go to phones every time
_scndry@reddit
Hope for open phones. I want linux phones to be good and Valve has some incentive to make it real. The mobile game market is gigantic. There are some hurdles left but we want to believe.
Thonatron@reddit
Gimme a Linux phone with GNOME that can do 2FA and I'm game.
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
Any Linux phone with any 2fa
Thonatron@reddit
"i3wm okay?"
PureTryOut@reddit
You joke but with SXMO you can literally do this if you choose X11 over Wayland (not sure why you would). And there actually seems to be quite some interest in such an environment.
Thonatron@reddit
Maybe if I had a trackball Blackberry and a physical keyboard. Otherwise keep i3wm away from mobile.
PureTryOut@reddit
Maybe actually lookup SXMO before you judge it.
Thonatron@reddit
Calm down, I'm aware. I just don't think there's a reason to run i3 on something with a touch screen.
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
Maybe. it would be hard to use i3 on touchscreen only
Thonatron@reddit
It was a joke lol
PsyOmega@reddit
This is good news but only for phones with snapdragon 8 gen 3 and a similar devtree.
Less-Barnacle-8082@reddit (OP)
Yeah, but it's a good start
Erchevara@reddit
Exactly, this seems to be a trend that Qualcomm is setting.
They are pretty much providing full support on their new high end hardware for Android, regular Linux and Windows. It's only a matter of time before that trickles into their mid range and their ARM competitors need to catch up or they're screwed.
Qualcomm is starting to compete with Intel, AMD, Nvidia, and Apple in laptops and now even consoles, while their "legacy" competitors are racing to get the best zit removal algorithm running 10% faster.
PsyOmega@reddit
Qualcomm is also quick to abandon their old platforms though.
I have a thinkpad X13s with Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3, and while it got some support earlier on, 1st party support for it is basically dead. It's only 4 years old.
unlimit3d@reddit
They should partner with ubports for phone UI/DE :-)
PureTryOut@reddit
KDE Plasma would make more sense, since they already have a mobile variant (Plasma Mobile) and Valve already uses and works with KDE.
TheJackiMonster@reddit
Yes, next hardware by Valve could even be a Steam Phone or Steam Tablet at this point. Software-wise this should be possible. I assume they will continue to focus on desktop gaming though. But I really hope this new hardware will help many contributions to arm64 support in FOSS and wider interest for OpenXR merging into desktop environments.