Is it worth going to university to learn programming?
Posted by ukrylidia@reddit | learnprogramming | View on Reddit | 284 comments
I'm an enthusiast when it comes to coding. I'm curious if there's something you can learn only in university but not from online resources. I really want to get into programming but I'm scared there might be an educational roadblock.
I'm not looking for a job, I'm just trying to improve and build projects for fun.
Dazzling_Music_2411@reddit
Many universities now offer amazing MOOCs, whose content is basically identical to the taught courses. You can easily get a uni education without attending uni, and for a minimal outlay.
Slow-Bodybuilder-972@reddit
Universities have a secret vault of knowledge that cannot be found anywhere else.
Sarcasm aside, you go to university for a few reasons....
a) The degree at the end of it.
b) Some people may find learning in groups with supervision easier than learning solo. Not everyone though.
c) social stuff.
If you have the drive, the focus etc.. you can learn everything that a university can teach you. But... You probably don't, and you don't get the degree at the end of it, which is the main thing.
SwiftSpear@reddit
It's also valuable that the curriculum is curated and you're made to learn stuff that is generally considered professionally valuable, but might not be the most interesting. It's rarely a career killer, but I'm sometimes very surprized by how big the gap in understanding is for some of my self taught coworkers. Especially those from the bootcamp era. Things like understanding why memory is slower than disk and how we program around it. Things like how CPUs perform operations and what that means for efficiently organizing tasks in code.
StudyRescuePro@reddit
both solid points tbh. uni gives you the fundamentals and theory that a lot of bootcamp grads miss — like why certain algorithms are faster, how memory actually works, data structures at a deeper level, etc.
but here's the thing: you can learn that stuff outside of uni too if you're intentional about it. the real difference is structure. uni forces you to learn the "boring but important" stuff. self-taught, you gotta actively seek it out instead of just tutorial-hopping
i've been filling those gaps with a mix of textbooks, YouTube deep dives, and honestly just asking for help when i hit a wall. sometimes having someone explain the "why" behind something saves hours of banging your head against the wall lol
if you're just building for fun tho, you can always circle back to theory when you actually need it for a project
pizzystrizzy@reddit
Memory is slower than disk?
SnakeLegendary@reddit
Random Access Memory speed is faster than disk (Hard drive or SSD)
pizzystrizzy@reddit
Right, but that's the opposite of what he said
jtg0d@reddit
I think he edited his post, it says the opposite of the opposite you said.
SwiftSpear@reddit
It was an unintentional typo. I reworded the sentence and forgot to apply the negation. Sometimes I wish I could unit tests my writing :P
pizzystrizzy@reddit
Yeah he fixed it
pizzystrizzy@reddit
Yeah he fixed it
Mcbrainotron@reddit
(! Memory is slower than disk)
Routine-Lawfulness24@reddit
Idk how he got to that conclusion
DigmonsDrill@reddit
My school forced me to learn the theory stuff that I didn't think mattered at the time but turned out to be essential to really growing. Each class seemed to use a different language (none of them really getting professional usage, although I guess there are technically professional Lispers out there) to force us to think about programming languages in entirely different ways.
Some people were mad there were no classes on "Java" or "Visual Studio" but you were expected to do that stuff on your own.
spinwizard69@reddit
This is so important, while this will age me, some of my classes used Modula 2. A good CS program exposes an student to a variety of languages to force them to think about concepts not language. I actually believe many CS programs are on the side of completely bogus because of a fixation on one language or platform.
vu47@reddit
LOL you must have gone to school at the same time as me. I remember Modula 2.
spinwizard69@reddit
Sadly i don’t. Most of my career was in industrial automation. I seem to remember the programming classes were easy while working 45-55 hours a week. ( non traditional student).
21Rollie@reddit
While I do think it’s important, a favorite class of mine was with a fake functional language which can’t be used in production, I do think it’s important that a university makes sure their students have at least one usable language in their arsenal. Ultimately people go thousands into debt so they can get jobs, stop assuming it’s everybody’s hobby to program in their off time
Slow-Bodybuilder-972@reddit
I can't really agree with this, my experience of CS grads is that their knowledge tends to skew academic, and not commercially relevant.
But yeah, I'm self-taught, and I certainly used to have gaps, I probably still do, but 25 years in the industry, I think most of those gaps have been sorted out.
SwiftSpear@reddit
Absolutely it skews academic. It's assumed new grads will get most of their commercially relevant training on the job. But that on the job training won't easily fill academic gaps which happen to be commercially beneficial the other way around.
Datastructures and algorithms, big O, etc are the most common gaps I've seen in early self taught or bootcamp dev careers. Not everyone self taught has the same gaps though.
Slow-Bodybuilder-972@reddit
Maybe this is the problem, a lot of employers are very reluctant to give training, I know my last few employers would not have even considered it.
tkitta@reddit
Yeah but most common popular programming languages do not let you, at least in the safe mode, to do anything special involving the memory. They are also way, way too top level to even remotely care how CPU does things.
Heck how CPU does things was no part of my Comp Sci education at all - zippo. It was mostly theoretical comp sci heavy.
spinwizard69@reddit
Strange! We actually had to do VAX 11 assembly, frankly via emulators, but you still had to create workable VaX code. That was one whole semester.
tkitta@reddit
There could be also difference in available courses at given time. For example, i had a course where we learned different programming language families. So things like logical programming with prolog. I know there was 4th year compiler design course i never took.
SwiftSpear@reddit
The latter isn't really true at least in the sense that you can usually choose not to read files sequentially etc. You can choose to set up parallel workers both at the inner thread and interthread level. You can do multithreaded management with locks, mutex, etc.
It's not as comprehensive as the control you can have with lower level languages, but it's relatively easy for your average python or javascript programmer to just avoid doing all of it entirely.
tkitta@reddit
Well i did have rather good foundation of threading. And i sid use threading in real life applications. C# has decent multi threading ability. However, thread scheduling is as far as i remember done by the operating system. I dont actually know or dont remember details of how the OS does it and how CPU responds.
SwiftSpear@reddit
Yup. But the big concern is sharing memory between threads, of which there's a bunch of different ways you can approach that problem. If you're really deep into the multithreading stuff you can sometimes also do little things to optimize CPU upper level cache sharing between threads. But I'll freely admit that, while I know that's a thing, I've never done it either at the hobby level or professionally.
Time-Opportunity-456@reddit
Didn't you have Computer Architecture and Operating Systems and stuff? I feel like that teaches you the relevant things on how a CPU does things and how to use that knowledge in programming. Also, lots of c/c++ still exists
tkitta@reddit
We actually had something like that but it was low level. So it was about logic gates and how to develop a modern street light component. In a way this was related to CPU and how all processors work. In other courses I remember talking about floats in C. But nothing that would package it into full explanation and maybe basic coding class in machine langage. So incomplete picture. Sure C and C++ exist. C++ is 9th or 8th if you ignore claims of CSS and HTML being somehow a programming language.
DigmonsDrill@reddit
I don't expect anyone to remember the difference between the von Neumann architecture and the Harvard architecture (I had to look it up just now to make sure I had the right terms), but surely you'd learn about memory access and processing instructions from any degree with "Computer Science" in the name...
tcpukl@reddit
Yeah I use it every day in my game Dev job working c++.
flamingspew@reddit
Learned this when i was 8. Teaching it to my eight year old. He’s dabbling in arduino. Go to school for the parties.
skip_the_tutorial_@reddit
I went to school and didn’t learn any of that lol
SwiftSpear@reddit
Username checks out.
No-Tea7992@reddit
I noticed you did not say ‘job’
Verochio@reddit
I’d also add that the coursework/problem sets, and having to revise for - and take - exams, forces you to actually learn in a way that just watching YouTube videos doesn’t. Having the goal of getting the qualification, and the structure of provable moments where you demonstrate what you’ve learnt, keeps you honest - you have to put the time and effort in.
spinwizard69@reddit
You missed possibly the most important reason for a degree, that is a well rounded education. My programming classes really didn't teach me much because I had a fairly good handle on coding, fulfilling the other requirements though really did a lot for me.
"for fun" programming doesn't require a degree. The big problem I see with a lot of self taught programmers is that they start using something like Python not really understanding what their programs are doing.
Slow-Bodybuilder-972@reddit
In my experience, working with grads, is that the education might be well rounded academically speaking, but not from a commercial point of view.
Grads have huge knowledge gaps, as can self-taught programmers, they just tend to be in different places.
finnfirep@reddit
This comment and if you are lucky with certain professor who teach you a cool programs and knowledge that you wouldn't have found or hard to find online. If you are learning programing, the road is 1, learning code on console 2, learning GUI design 3, learning database console 4, learning database GUI 5, Data Structure 6, API, Optimize Programs, Installation, etc 7, AI 8,... up to you...
The technology is evolving the moment you stop; you will leave behind...
DowntownBake8289@reddit
Do you even know what "console" is? Are you thinking "command line"?
syklemil@reddit
Given how many people ask on reddit, there clearly are a lot of people who value b). Unfortunately for them, /r/learnprogramming isn't actually staffed by paid TAs.
Getting some actual colleagues at college, as in friends you can talk shop with, is also often good. Maybe they're someone you can ask for help, maybe they're someone that asks you for help. Explaining stuff to others is a great way to learn, especially if you're asked questions you'd never come up with yourself.
Plus, one significant difference from other situations: Your day job is to learn stuff! Just being able to prioritise that is pretty huge.
DigmonsDrill@reddit
When I see my kids in school having access to a teacher who will go over their work and explain what's wrong, like your foreign language teacher who can hear your sentence and correct it, and I'm practically yelling at them "this is incredibly valuable, you will never again have access so cheaply to an expert in the field willing to provide feedback and guidance" and all I get back is a shrug.
jqVgawJG@reddit
University is a fountain of knowledge and students go there to drink
DigmonsDrill@reddit
firehose of knowledge you drink from
yinkeys@reddit
Some bootcamps could be worth it too
chmod777@reddit
to add on:
guess where 90% of our entry level new hires come from? on campus recruiting. plus internships.
many startups are college cohorts working together.
Comprehensive_Fee250@reddit
The most important point is university teaches you theory while if you learn by yourself you'll mostly be learning practical stuff. You gotta do both.
aanzeijar@reddit
I would add d) getting in touch with topics you don't stumble across naturally.
unethicalangel@reddit
If you're not looking for a job then definitely not worth the investment, just learn with projects as a hobby!
jtg0d@reddit
I'm a senior software engineer with about 20 years of experience. I never went to university, i graduated from a community college and at some point took a single C# course after graduation. College didn't help me 90% of the time, I either knew it already or it was useless for me. I just did it for the paperwork.
What matters is your brain, your sense of logic and enthusiasm. Start learning by programming things. Create programs or games, whatever interests you, whatever keeps you engaged. Start small, solve problems one at a time. Do NOT be discouraged if after investing X number of hours you come to realization that your program was built inefficiently or just wrong, you might need to start from scratch. That's how you learn. Having an idea before starting your work also helps.
Full-Silver196@reddit
you do not need uni if you are just programming for fun. you need uni if you want a job (not always though). just take online courses and learn what you’d like.
you can easily learn everything uni teaches you and more.
Adventurous_Luck_664@reddit
To learn “programming” you don’t really need a degree. To learn engineering and how to think properly through problems, yes.
Dismal-Pepper-1443@reddit
Every day same question. No its not. Its 21 century and there is internet u can search anything u want and learn. University only good if u want connection with people. Networking is cool thing in IT and university will give u a degree and help u to find job(depends on university) any other thing is up to u. U have to learn new things every day and work hard. Without this u will mever achieve nothing!
ConfusionOne8651@reddit
No
Engibeeros@reddit
No. It worth to go there to learn engineering.
willehrendreich@reddit
No.
LostFoundPound@reddit
I’ll let you into a little secret. What you learn at university (barely) matters. The connections you make at university are the real deal.
In life, it is rarely what you know, it is who you know that can give you some advantage in some specific field. Learning by yourself is possible, maybe even advantageous, but it is lonely. You do not know what you do not know, and only the other can help you. It’s up to you which path you prefer.
Different-Maize-9818@reddit
To 'learn programming', no. To 'be employed as a programmer', yes.
KeroOrange@reddit
No.
TechNerdinEverything@reddit
You will spend most of your time learning calculus and algebra didn't do anything else rather than this in my CS degree
You and courses are often time bound so sometimes you have to rush things to complete syllabus, miss out on good parts of any course and have less time towards self learning
If you do want a degree dont take CS rather an easier CS subset so that you are able to give more time to yourself
YasinHamad@reddit
Im gonna say one thing.
Learning from the doctor directly, I mean when you see him and he sees you is easier than when you sit with the screen.
When you sit with the screen, you will get tired for no reason, you will feel that you cant achieve stuff, for no reason, you will feel that you are mentally tired most of the time, you will need longer period of time to relax than if you was taking the lecture from the doc, face to face.
zxcvbnma12321@reddit
No. My post on this is extremely opinionated. But in my experience, hobbyists learn nothing from university and those who do learn from university write terrible, scrawl-like code until they gain real experience. You can skip this by going straight into real experience. Your own code always teaches you more than whatever a university tutor can, as they try to cater for everyone and teach principles from a diagrammatic point of view. If you code yourself, you will instead learn from an entirely pragmatic, usable point of view.
The important thing is going about self teaching the right way, from a variety of good sources. I personally started with video courses and online courses, then went into official documentation and then went into books. I also found myself a couple of very experienced mentors, who were also self-taught and earning big money. They had experience in a different language, so they helped me only at the very start, to teach me fundamental concepts hands-on, and to critique my code piecemeal, so that I wouldn't get overwhelmed with feedback.
Start with decent beginner courses like Pluralsight and focus on clean code, following good principles as you learn them and keep the search for decent architecture in the back of your mind. Do these things always.
After a few weeks of basics, create a "very simple" console project on something that you want to build, and iterate on it until it becomes massive. It'll break and become unwieldy, which is fine. Refactor it, prototype replacement components, build frameworks to support it, and stick with it.
You'll learn a rediculous amount. After your outgrow video courses, read documentation documentation primarily. After you exhaust most of that, begin reading books to fill in the gaps and push for advanced concepts, things that push you to do better, instead of regurgitating what you already will have learned - books like 'Framework Design Guidelines' are good.
As you start to accumulate a couple of books worth of knowledge, can power your way through ideas that you have, and have consumed a large amount of documentation and can see the pros and cons of your language more than clearly, then now might be a good time to expand into other languages if you do choose. But don't mix languages until you know one inside out, the pros and cons for every line you write, how everything works under the hood (up until the point that it doesn't help you write better code).
Note on video courses: Some people like YouTube tutorials but I'd avoid them as they're slow, low quality and make it too easy to avoid critical thinking. Video courses are a good way to start just the first few lines and start thinking in code. Trying to learn without someone speaking, right off the bat, in my experience becomes too difficult and dry until you've established a bare bones foundation to build from. At that point, for me, learning from documentation became easy, and interesting, as I was striving to fill gaps.
For the language, start with something simple but well documented like C#, Python. C# is statically typed which is a bonus. Use typescript instead of JavaScript, for example. Languages which are easy to learn and well documented are great, these two examples are also versatile.
Note on AI: don't use it to write code, but it's fine to spitball ideas, critique what you've written, and learn more concepts. Don't trust it, always verify with external sources.
Stick with one main project and a series of mini prototypes and test sandboxes in order to learn fastest, in my opinion, as it gives you experience refactoring bad, unwieldy code, and prevents you from hitting a wall and abandoning to do something else.
To find a mentor, or ask for advice, such as code reviews, there are a lot of communities for example discord. You can search for servers, ask people you know. If you play games, just check your friends list for anyone that plays factorio.
Good luck, don't let university waste your time.
Elytje@reddit
i wrote better memorials http://www.onlineuniverse.nl
Big_Boysenberry_627@reddit
It is important to learn the foundations of computer science, i.e. the math, the theory, algorithms etc. Learning to program is actually one the last steps and a continuous one. Whether it is worth it to pay for formal education is up to you. If you are disciplined enough to learn on your own, then you don't need to. As far as job opportunities, some companies require a formal diploma, but many don't, especially lately. So it's up to you to weigh the costs vs benefits.
Little-Concern-5384@reddit
You won’t learn how to program in University. You will learn all the theory, logic and math required to study how computers work. Then you have the skills to research how to program. Prime example you’ll take an algo and data structure class where you will learn what a hash map is and how to make one… but you won’t be able to tell when to use one and how to use it to solve problems( you know the theory but can’t program). I went to university to get the paper. I had to learn that I didn’t learn how to program enough to land a job and fix that. I’ve been looking a for a job for 2 years… hahahahakillmepleasehahahaha all jokes aside go for the paper and remember while you’re going you need to compound your time by building things and learning how to actually program. The only way to really learn is to do in this case
CppOptionsTrader@reddit
you learn programming by programming! think of something fun to do, and have AI walk you through the steps from start to finish, from setting up your coding environment (whatever that may be) - to writing the code itself, building , debugging etc... you will learn a lot.. As for me, I got a grad degree in mechanical engineering 4 decades ago, tought myself to code, got into finance, got a job on a trading floor for a couple decades and have been a software engineer for most of my career... the degree didn't teach me programming .. its something you just pick up and do!
Acceptable_Figure_27@reddit
If you just want to learn it? Complete waste of time. If you want to work in the field, then yea pretty good to have a degree and depends on the university.
json-born@reddit
if you aren't looking for a job, just write code and enjoy. As others have said, the key differences between a computer science graduate and a self taught programmer usually show in deeper topics like algorithms and data structures. Concepts you might not need to think about much at all from a hobbyists pov...
psycorah__@reddit
No.
rhapsody090909@reddit
Absolutely no , IT education in colleges is a big scam
Key_Appointment_7582@reddit
Im going to have to disagree with a majority of the comments here. Yes you can technically learn everything on your own but honestly, will you?
When was the last time you heard of people becoming lawyers, doctors, or even historians off of self studying. I am not sure what college you are planning on attending but some of those professors you'll meet are genuinely insanely cracked human beings. Having a relationship with your professors will help you personally and academically in ways you wont expect. Tip: try and do research with a professor.
Also, people are saying college is just a social thing and thats true but do not see that as a bad thing. Never again in your life will you be surrounded by people whose fulltime occupation is improving themselves.
As long as you aren't putting yourself in crippling debt to attend, PLEASEEEE give it thought. Feel free to PM if you have any questions. I served as a college transition mentor for a year and i promise you i've helped people in your scenario already.
StupidScape@reddit
Lawyers and doctors are accredited. So it’s completely different to a programmer. Anyone can write one line of code and can call themselves a programmer. You cannot just put on a bandage and become a doctor.
raduuser@reddit
Plenty of doctors out there looking up diagnostics/treatment on Google... Guess what, they are accredited. Not too much different to a programmer.
Aggravating_Dish_824@reddit
Is it supposed to be refutal? You just confirmed this guy point.
The difference is that unaccredited programmer will not be jailed for working as programmer.
Izagawd@reddit
“Will you?”
If one only studies textbooks then they probably will miss a lot of things. But if they were to make advanced projects, they will usually learn what they need, more so than aCS graduate that hasn’t made an advanced projects
Izagawd@reddit
And tbh, if you don’t learn some things and you have been building things fine, then you probably didn’t need to know the other things a CS degree might have taught you. And if u do need to learn it in the future, it’s not like the world stops u from learning it because u didn’t go to university
tkitta@reddit
God no, almost no one sane would learn program correctness. Or touch on Gödel's incompleteness theorem (God I remembered that one after 25 years!)
mikaball@reddit
I remember Bloom Filters (also other shit). I was weirdly fascinated by it.
Won-Ton-Wonton@reddit
Two of these requires a degree in most states to get a license to practice. That's the main reason you would not see a lawyer, and for a doctor it is simply because self-study would be expensive as fuck. Med school gives you the ability to get financial aid (grants, scholarship, loan, etc), you cannot get a loan for self-studying medicine. It would likewise be quite expensive to self-study law, but not as difficult. Historians tend to be the best when they DO self-study out of school.
All that aside. You missed the point OP asked about. As a HOBBYIST do you need a 4-year degree to be able to learn programming? The answer is a resounding no. And there is nothing a University is going to have in their secret sauce, the bag of mischief and magic, the shelf containing one-of-a-kind knowledge for unlocking one's innate ability to program... that isn't real. Everything they teach comes out of a textbook. It is listed in a curriculum expectation. All topics are there, and public knowledge, and the proximity to professors is not the key to some kind of osmosis-learning that can only be done from them.
This is potentially true for professional employment. But it is 100% true for a hobbyist.
HirsuteHacker@reddit
OP doesn't want a career in it though, he said he just wants it for personal projects.
pediocore@reddit
If you are young, or well funded, go to college. Else, its a waste of time. People around me whose doing well in IT mostly don’t even have a degree.
I work in the industries, a developer myself too. I am also in charge for hiring and interviews, I dont care of your certificates. As long as you can code, have an active git profiles, you are hired.
wordswillneverhurtme@reddit
Wdym everyone on the interet is a self-taught lawyer, general, and doctor
Boring_Psycho@reddit
This. If you're young, have no major responsibilities, got people willing to sponsor you(or capable of funding it on your own) and looking forward to this as a lifelong career, going the college route can open so many doors in the future that the self-taught route just can't without 10× the effort.
Key_Appointment_7582@reddit
Forgot to add this but it is also a great way to try new things. Even within programming there are so many things you can study. I have a friend who through a random convo with our systems professor got interested in networks, did a computer networks class and then a capstone project in Mobile Networks being aided by a professor who did networking for 25 yrs. You can't self study that.
ToThePillory@reddit
There is no information only available to universities, and graduates are then sworn to secrecy from ever telling anybody what it is.
If you ever meet a CS graduate, you'll realise there is no magic there, they are generally speaking terrible programmers just like everybody else.
If you're not looking for a job, I don't see why you'd get a CS degree, unless it's free maybe, but even then I'm not sure why.
Ok_Minute8844@reddit
I'm 23 and I don't wanna go to school at this point, but I wanna put my part time earnings into learning, could I still pursue a job in the field without that degree.
HugsyMalone@reddit
🤣🤣🤣👌
GyuSteak@reddit
Companies still wanna see a degree.
Even if they don't set a hard requirement for one, why would they choose someone who doesn't have one when they can get someone who does? Degreeless people aren't a protected class.
Due_Adagio_1690@reddit
It's also nice not to be the smartest person in the room, before entering college, how often did you get a chance to talk to someone that ported software, or even write some of it.
codeclassroom@reddit
The main question to ask yourself is how MUCH of an Enthusiast are you really?
You mentioned the educational roadblocks, but dealing with mental roadblocks and the frustration of smashing your head into the keyboard over "unsolvable" errors is part of programming.
If you don't think you can overcome that with your own self-motivation and self-accountability and need guidance or mentorship, then maybe a university program, coding bootcamp, or other mentored programs might be better for you.
If you think your interest can keep you motivated even in those situations, then you definitely don't need to pay 4 years of your life!
Best of luck!
ClassicMaximum7786@reddit
If your only interest is specifically programing then no, comp sci is very math and theory heavy which is annoying, I love programming and only have 1 programming module per semester. If you like computer science generally, then yes why not
InterviewFluids@reddit
You don't go to university to learn programming.
You go to university to learn software engineering and computer science.
Sure-Purpose2472@reddit
If you're not looking for the degree at the end of it and what that brings then no, you can learning whatever you need to online.
Decent_Jello_8001@reddit
Hell no I'd go into school as a ee and just self study how to program
AccountForeign9706@reddit
Uni is too slow at teaching those stuff
AccountForeign9706@reddit
Nah
musicbuff_io@reddit
I can tell you with confidence that learning in college from a professional that lives breathes and sleeps programming is a lot easier than teaching yourself.
We live in an insanely competitive world, and the people getting jobs in computer science are people that understand the theory behind it.
Ohh and if you have any desire to work for a big company, they verify degrees… so there’s that.
NotMyGovernor@reddit
Most professors lives breathes and sleeps academics and academic programming. This can be very different than corporate level programming.
Academic programming is normally more hacking. Quick “shack” built work and totally lacking processes at all let alone big corporate processes or work put into very or mega large projects etc.
musicbuff_io@reddit
Explain to me how somebody is going to teach themself those big corporate processes on their own then? How will somebody who’s never worked in a coding role learn how to code big corporate processes on their own? Home labs? But then how do they know what type of lab to put together to replicate a corporate environment? I guess you can take common sense business models like ecommerce and build that, but there’s more to software engineering than ecommerce.
NotMyGovernor@reddit
I mean the processes, ie QA, code review, field trial pipelines etc are going to be different for each company so you kinda just have to learn what they do there.
What colleges teach and what a lot of the professors only have real world experience in, is what the degree title implies, computer science. The science of ie having software use less memory, or utilize the cpu faster etc.
So corporate processes, the problems that arise with software "exclusively" in a corporate product scenario, software issues on very large projects where many people are working on it at the same time, software needing to vitally first and foremost be "bug free" / insanely stable / self recovering etc are not "computer science" problems.
For those wanting to take "computer science" to get a "corporate programming job" there are so many changes the degree could take to better provide for that. However if one wants to do "university research in computer science" or "science based programming" at a corp (insanely competitive to get these jobs), then computer science is perfectly fit for this.
musicbuff_io@reddit
I want to learn AI engineering. Do you think I can reasonably teach myself AI Engineering and all of the math involved with it on my own? Because I suck at math.
Izagawd@reddit
It varies from person to person. I personally find that I learn more things on my own than in school courses
Software-Deve1oper@reddit
I've worked for big companies in silicon valley with no degree and worked with people who worked in multiple FAANG companies with no degree.
I agree with everything else you've said, and if this guy was looking to get a job (which he said he wasn't), I'd definitely say the easier route is to go.
Also I realize the job market now is way more competitive so if you have no experience and want to get a job, it'll be extremely difficult without a degree, but a degree has basically never been and still isn't a requirement even for big companies. You might have to prove yourself a little more during the hiring process though.
musicbuff_io@reddit
What do you think of boot camps then? Do you think they’re a waste of money at this point?
Software-Deve1oper@reddit
I think it really depends. There are a lot of shitty boot camps, so any of those are a waste of money for sure.
If you do a good boot camp in addition to a degree, that's awesome and will for sure give you an advantage.
Most people I know who are great engineers and went to a boot camp were already self taught to some extent before they went.
I think in the current job market it's going to be extremely difficult with just a boot camp certificate, but the same can be said about having just a degree (with no experience I mean).
musicbuff_io@reddit
I agree. I decided to go back to school for AI engineering because I feel like most jobs are going to be AI related going forward. AI isn’t something I’ve seen taught in boot camps.
77SKIZ99@reddit
I got into the field without uni, was more than a lil rough, but then again not sure how much the degree would have helped me over my certs/support experience
Would be a cool flex tho, that's for damn sure.
If its within your means go for it man, if not that's still okay, gotta make the system work for us
EntrepreneurHuge5008@reddit
No, you go to university for computer science.
If you want programming, you can do that on your own.
jamielitt-guitar@reddit
My degree is in Software Engineering, so that’s not true at all, at least not in the UK
wggn@reddit
Even a software engeneering degree covers much more than just programming, like design, development, and testing, etc.
SlimeX300@reddit
Sounds dumb but arnt software engineering and programming the same thing ?
wggn@reddit
No. Programming is the act of writing code, translating logic into a specific programming language so a computer can execute it.
Software engineering is broader. It includes programming but also covers designing software architecture, analyzing requirements and constraints, testing, deployment, and maintenance, version control, scalability, reliability, etc.
SlimeX300@reddit
So for being a software developer, u should be a software engineer?
wggn@reddit
It's good to have more skills than just programming yes.
SlimeX300@reddit
So for being a software developer, u should be a software engineer?
EntrepreneurHuge5008@reddit
To my point, there’s is an overlap of CS and SWE.
To my bigger point, you don’t go to uni for programming.
EntrepreneurHuge5008@reddit
Not saying we don’t have Software Engineering degrees in the US. In the US at least, the difference is that of a Theoretical (CS) vs. Practical-leaning (SWE).
Not sure how it is in the UK, and this is 100% my opinion, but I think self-teaching theory is much harder than self-teaching tools. Hence my claim that you go to Uni for CS, but the programming (practical) can be entirely self-taught.
jamielitt-guitar@reddit
Programming is a small aspect of SE as you know, you can learn the syntax of a language but there is much more to it than that. My SE degree had lots of mandatory modules that weren’t available to CS degree due to their specialism. If doing CS you can’t take the same modules as in the SE - if that was allowed then where you are is not the same at all as the UK
EntrepreneurHuge5008@reddit
Sure, I generalized my claim it a bit too much.
We can my my original post much more specific:
You go to university for CS/SWE/DS/DA/etc…
You don’t go to university for programming
jamielitt-guitar@reddit
Yes, that is correct, however programming tends to be the easier part, it’s the “solving the problem” aspect that is the bit that makes you a good programmer to avoid the scenario of when you are stuck (because you have coded yourself into a hole you can’t get out of, yes, I’ve been there in the early days)
Pretend_Fish4861@reddit
This.
Computer Science at university will involve (though definitely not limited to):
I.e. broad concepts that are agnostic of any specific programming language, but knowledge that will shape your thinking and ways of tackling the problems you wanna solve.
It will make you a better programmer for sure.
NotMyGovernor@reddit
Knowing algorithms and data structures is vital to good next level programming though.
tkitta@reddit
Which is what I did and most others I know.
Bluebill_365@reddit
In the university I attended, we were mostly taught designing “CRUD” login pages and signup pages and linking it to a database, but we had to self study to master the programming language we found interest in on our own.
Radiant_Level9017@reddit
As someone who has taught at University after attending 2 bootcamps for software development no you don’t need to go but you do need to understand things they don’t teach in bootcamp like programming theory, I have just created an introductory course online and am doing a raffle for free access to the course message me if your interested I am currently now 6 years in my career of software development and worked in the government sector as well as gas and electric industry, message me if your interested. Programming is a journey not a destination.
Icy-Effective3294@reddit
University will teach you things that you might not think to learn on your own. For example, design patterns/principles, avoiding code smells, software architecture, different frameworks etc. If you want to learn to code, you can teach yourself that. But being able to write one file of 1000 lines of Python does not make you a programmer. If you want to learn to code to a high standard and actually be able to engineer things, you'll probably need a course at least. Also, through studying you'll be able to refine your likes and dislikes. Hope this helps :)
rboswellj@reddit
Well, you said university and not college, so maybe it would be worth it as an enthusiast. In the U.S. education outside of career goals is difficult because you have to hope to offset massive debt.
SwiftSpear@reddit
The issue is not that the learnings and info you want are not ready and available online. The issue is that there is too much information online for you to figure out what is the good stuff and what is not so useful. Left in a vacuum you will gravitate towards the stuff you like the most, and leave big gaps in your professional development because you didn't know what would be useful to round out your skillset.
If you're a savant level expert at one specific topic, the gaps in your knowledge might not put much of a dent in your career, but for normal people who struggle to self motivate well enough to learn the equivalent of a university curriculum without external pressure, those 4 years are better spent getting your degree than starting early on your portfolio.
Izagawd@reddit
That’s why you do complex projects. They force you to learn what u need to learn. I personally think trying to learn everything “just in case” isn’t an efficient way to learn
OnlyCommentWhenTipsy@reddit
Worth your time? maybe. Worth your money? No. Especially now with LLMs you can learn about any topic in any depth you want.
HEVIKARJALA@reddit
I have little bit different situation. I have mechanical engineering degree. I have work experience from big engineering companies (7 ish years), IoT and heavy machinery mostly. Also work closely with developers, but no coding involved. Just troubleshooting.
I recently started learn coding by myself. The goal is to get a job in the field in the 1-1.5 years.
Possible without degree? yes definitely, but how hard? is this realistic?
----------
any advice on learning? read below
I've done couple programs during the years with python and messing with API's. Currently im learning how use bash shell on WLS and next would be git. After this i wanna do project with Python including API's and maybe setup server, so i can access from anywhere.. lets see.
Any recommendation what i should learn after all this? im really interested in C as you get deeper understanding how memory allocation and CPU actually works.
thanks
Aero077@reddit
BSCS study gives you the science approach to programming. This is helpful for solving hard problems and designing solutions that scale.
If you are writing programs for fun, just follow your passion.
Free CS education w/o the degree https://github.com/ossu/computer-science?tab=readme-ov-file#curriculum
Izagawd@reddit
I still don’t think you need a degree to learn those algorithms. Everything can be found online.
SumDingBoi@reddit
Wow, I was just thinking last night about trying to maybe round my knowledge alongside web development, and here this is, damn, I'm glad I looked at this post.
Thanks for sharing! It's very helpful that it's open source 🙌
chataolauj@reddit
Nice resource. I already graduated in 2018, but bookmarking to let others know.
Izagawd@reddit
If you are just looking to make fun projects it’s best to learn online. Degree is helpful for getting jobs, but I don’t think that u need a degree to be great at programming, or even to specialize in a field that’s programming related.
Just_Information334@reddit
Yes. But not really for the learning part.
First is the degree which a lot of companies have a hard-on for. And useful if you want to emigrate somewhere.
Second is the fact you'll see things you'd rarely stumble upon when learning solo. It may be useless but maybe one day you'll get some ask at work and you'll be like "feels like the shit we did in Prolog at uni, maybe I should check if I could do something with that".
Third and the most important. And I wish I got told about it. Network. You're there to network: be social, make friends, and learn to keep the relationships going over the years. It may be the difference between sending 100 resumes getting no response and getting a call from a friend who remembered you when a position opened in their company.
As7ault@reddit
I am a college dropout have multiple remote roles as mobile devs no one ever asked about degree but these days i have again started virtual degree.
Degree is not something you need for job or knowing how to code its just for validation.
Whole_Accountant1005@reddit
Here's a free 4th year university course on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_xRyXins848Mfiv4hIgiMZgLpzFT7ohv
Alert_Campaign4248@reddit
Yes if it's what you love yes
shapeshifta78@reddit
For me it was easier to get to know all different ways of programming and the ecosystem around it. I still try to use that view whenever I learn something new. I studied media technologies.
Mindless_Sail4632@reddit
No you don’t go to uni to learn programming, you go to learn computer science or software engineering. Writing code is the output but not the goal.
A degree helps get you in the door with a basic level of technical proficiency and you start learning what is useful from there.
I think the days are gone when you can boot camp your way in.
Alternative would be to contribute to open source projects in such a way that your experience speaks for itself - but even then you may find a glass ceiling based on no degree.
Unless you are special enough that the quality/regulatory and hr teams are willing to accept a higher level of risk when you sign off on requirements - and I think that will be very field dependent.
And bluntly if that were the case (at this stage in your development anyway) we would not be providing advice but asking for it 🤣
Gold-Strength4269@reddit
If you have money and time
Jmauld@reddit
University is for becoming a computer scientist. An 8yr old can learn to program.
Talonastrophy@reddit
University is largely going to a classroom and learning nothing and then going home to self teach you everything but the benefit is that after 4 years you get a paper that says you did it and your chances of acquiring a job raise roughly 3%
spinwizard69@reddit
If you are not looking for a job you can learn anyway you want. If you want a career then I'd have to say a 4 year degree is a requirement these days.
As for DIY learning it is certainly possible but I'd have to say a lot of people go about ti the wrong way. First what you really want to learn is Computer Science (CS), so that you understand the concepts. Personally I think it is better to learn this with a low level language like C or C++, but understand you are learning the concepts not becoming an accomplished C programmer. Becoming an accomplished programmer in any language requires significant programming, study and frankly debugging.
I'd old fashion and really believe that the best way to learn programming is to find a good book and start out at a system terminal and a text editor. Eventually you will want to move to an IDE but understanding how the tools work at a lower level is golden.
Now the question everybody seems to be concerned about, which language should I learn for the long run. There is no good answer here as there are many depends. However I suggest a two language approach, learn a bit of Python for scripting and such. For the second language learn what ever language is mainstream for your platform and target. For example if you are a Mac user and your apps will run there, learn Swift.
Now here is a qualifier, if "for fun" means embedded projects, robotics or similar, you really need to learn C and or C++ in depth. Neither of these are as fun as Python or the platforms language off choice, but it is what your need for the embedded world at this point in time. Frankly understanding assembly is also needed. This sort of programming can be more difficult but platforms like Arduino do make it a bit easier. You can learn C++ or C on almost any desktop system, ideally Linux, and that can transfer to the embedded world but there are restrictions.
oatmealcraving@reddit
If you want to suck all the fun out of it.....
SavvyZOR@reddit
University is the best thing for networking, but actually studying anything is personal stuff, for me uni destroyed any wish to do it, 7 years later I’m doing it myself and actually enjoying
Panebomero@reddit
As a professional (say, I was employed because I have a degree), I highly suggest going to the universinigy because there is a lot of concepts you usually “skip” in the practical side of things. You need theory and school is good for that.
Unless you live in the US, if that's the case avoid University at all cost, you shouldnt be paying for decades what you did in 4 years.
vojtab4@reddit
No you wont get that there out of nothing. Thats a way you have to go alone, you may walk it in some particular course.
But what you will get there is basic walkthrough of most of possible ways you can go, also you sill get a map of those routes and get rumors from people that are walking those ways
Calm_Cartoonist6977@reddit
Wait, so you're saying the bootcamp crowd doesn't know memory is faster than disk? That explains SO much about why our last junior kept trying to load entire databases into variables. 🤦♀️
MagicalPizza21@reddit
JUST programming? No.
Computer science, whose concepts are often expressed through programs? Yes.
jamielitt-guitar@reddit
My degree is in Software Engineering, so that’s was VERY much learning to program/patterns/architecture etc. I also used Genetic Algorithms in my final year project.
noob_lvl1@reddit
In my university, software engineering was just an emphasis of the computer science degree.
jamielitt-guitar@reddit
That doesn’t make sense. Computer Science is very broad whilst Software Engineering is very specialised (which is why I chose it). There is a small amount of learning to code in a CS degree but no where near the amount your expected to do in Software Engineering
noob_lvl1@reddit
I don’t know if they changed it but the bachelor’s degree was Computer Science and then you had to choose 1 of 3 emphasis. Software engineering, Computer science, and I think the third was called Information Technology. This was also over a decade ago, mind you. I see on the website everything is different now, it doesn’t even look like the same major.
chandaliergalaxy@reddit
In software engineering, what kind of theory do you learn that survives beyond the next hot framework, language, etc.that you could pick up by doing projects on your own?
nguyenlamlll@reddit
Software development lifecycle. Requirement analysis. Software architecture and design. Software testing / Verification / Validation. Project management. Etc.
chandaliergalaxy@reddit
Cool thanks - I honestly didn't know.
DigmonsDrill@reddit
Start by literally not learning any frameworks. A degree program shouldn't be a "how to use React" bootcamp.
chandaliergalaxy@reddit
I'm sure they have to learn something for their internships
DigmonsDrill@reddit
I had to spend $35.25 of my own money on "The C Programming Language" by K&R but the school gave me all the computers I could need to run it. I did that on my own time between classes. My first programs were absolutely crazy and did very dumb things but it was invaluable experience to do it there where the results didn't matter.
(I know it was $35.25 because I reached over onto my bookshelf just now and checked the back.)
jamielitt-guitar@reddit
I think you need to read up on what Software Engineering actually entails and look at the criteria for a Software Engineering degree. Your comment implies what I learnt 25 years ago doesn’t apply today when it absolutely does.
chandaliergalaxy@reddit
I'm asking what theory you learn because you mentioned the practical aspects of the degree.
jamielitt-guitar@reddit
You can find this out yourself by looking at any Uni prospectus and courses they offer on Software Engineering. It would save me having to write a lengthy response :)
QuincyDr@reddit
It will teach you about databases, user interfaces, libraries, algorithms, computers, memory management, disk space management, networking, cloud infrastructure, mathematics, optimization, design, architecture, embedded programming, bits and bytes, security, ethical hacking, scripting, compilers, microprocessors, cpus,.... it's definitely useful to go to University.
964racer@reddit
I ended up going to university and getting a mathematics degree and taking computer science electives. I really think it was a good decision. The foundations in advanced math are not easily self taught and you can use that in machine learning , quantum computing, graphics, simulation etc . The computer science/programming electives were icing on the cake , most of what I could learn self taught or on the job .
cheezballs@reddit
You'll be forced to learn things you probably wouldn't otherwise. Stuff in discreet math classes has helped me in my professional career for sure.
mandzeete@reddit
If you are just doing it for a hobby then no. These 3-4 years won't be all fun. You'll have sleepless nights when preparing for exams. You'll have deadlines you have to follow. You might be taking courses that do not help you neither directly nor indirectly. Perhaps university studies cost a lost, in your country, and you have to take a loan. Will that be worth of doing when you plan to do just as a hobby? No.
Go for a degree when you want to contribute to the field. Go for a degree when you plan to do research. Go for a degree when you plan to specialize in the field and start working. But not for a hobby. Perhaps pick a field and do your degree studies in something you actually plan to do for living.
I did my Bachelor studies and my Master studies and have zero regrets. It was more than worth it. But I also did it because I turned my hobby into my career. I love working as a software developer. I get paid for doing what I like to do. But the same way one of my hobbies is cycling. I did not become a professional racer. One of my hobbies is geocaching. I did not become botanist, historian, geologist or something (geocaching involves looking for "treasures" from places that have some significance). I like watching anime. I did not get a degree in Asian studies, a degree in language studies, did not enter art college.
A hobby does not require a degree per se.
Will you be able to build any and all projects on your own, without a degree in computer sciences? No. Computer Sciences is not only about programming. It is a lot more. There exist fields and projects where you need all kind of theoretical knowledge you won't be learning on your own, most likely. For example "Build software for a space satellite." Now what will you do? In fact, my university had such faculty-wide project. It had students building the satellite, building the ground station, programming the ground station, programming the satellite, working on communication protocols, etc. A degree holder is able to join such project. Because his courses introduced him into topics relevant in space technology. A random The Odin Project bootcamp that one can do for free won't teach you complex topics. It will generate web developer wannabes.
But do you want to build a satellite (well, program one, because building it was what mechanical engineering students did)? If your projects are much simpler then definitely you won't need a degree.
Another thing with online learning is that do you know what you don't know but what you should know? With a university curriculum you are introduced into topics either you find irrelevant (but have relevance) or that you haven't even thought about.
But you can decide it for yourself. Come up with a project idea. Then google what might be required to complete it. Perhaps you can get it done. Perhaps you'll rely on tutorials and will fall into "tutorial hell". And, perhaps, the project is way over your knowledge and skill level.
derpinhoo@reddit
Can be done without a bachelors as long as you have the passion.
dialsoapbox@reddit
Uni's tend to have ties with local companies that you can try to leverage for internships/jobs and access to hardware/equipment if you're also doing that along with programming.
vankoosh@reddit
Yes. I have learned frontend development by myself, got a job and been in it for 3 years now. Love the coding part, but I also see that there is so much more to know than how to write a function. DBs, bash, how things communicate, servers, Linux, ... To become a coder, you need to know so much more than only coding, trust me. I feel it every day that a fresh graduate in my company knows so many other things that I have not learned and now will have hard times learning just because after coming home from work I will sure as hell not spend another few hours learning those other background things that come with the job.
Consistent-Travel-93@reddit
If you are asking this question then you need uni. Mainly for clubs and network. Remember network is net-worth
KronenR@reddit
Do you want to be an engineer or just a programmer?
If you want to be an engineer, you need the foundational math, and college is a good way to get it.
If you just want to program, college isn’t really worth it—you’ll spend time learning a lot of things you’ll probably never use. Still, having that knowledge isn’t useless; it shapes how you think and how you approach problems
Wide_Egg_5814@reddit
No its not worth it at all, 1 good mentor in your life teaching your for 1 year is better than 20 years studying at a university. Who am i to say this? Im in my early 20s and im making money than every single person who taught me in university, its luck and hardwork but i taught myself most things
KPS-UK77@reddit
No You go to university to get the degree You learn programming by yourself
digicrat@reddit
In general, it is always good to learn. If you have the opportunity and resources (ie if work will pay for you to go back to school), definitely take the chance to expand your skills.
You can learn to program on your own, but you may not learn well. A degree will open job opportunities if thats what you want to pursue.
Most importantly a university curriculum will (try to) teach you theory, concepts, and ways of thinking that you are unlikely to learn on your own. To put it simply, that can be the difference between a low paid job that can be easily outsourced and a software engineer that thinks and works through the complex tasks.
mrcanada66@reddit
A university computer science degree provides foundational theory that self-study often misses. Consider whether you want to just code or deeply understand how systems work.
huuaaang@reddit
CS will give a much more academic approach to programming that can be self-taught but it will take you much longer to get there. Depends on what area you go into. If you're doing something like working on an operating system you probably want the CS degree, but not so much for web dev. You're working at such a high level than you generally don't have to deal with any of the hard CS implementation details.
Then carry on. Nothing to worry about here.
Achereto@reddit
What university can give you is a better fundamental understanding of how computers work. It will teach you stuff you likely wouldn't think of reading about in the first place.
However, in terms of good programming practices universities usually are about 10 years behind. Universities may still teach you OOP (especially Inheritance and Design Patterns), when the industry has already moved to Data Oriented Design and Entity Component Systems.
daniel8192@reddit
I was not formally trained in Computer Science but rather I started as a hobbyist in the 70s with Basic and ASM, Enter the 90s I was professionally writing realtime interrupt/driven finite state machine applications in C and by the ‘00s, I dove full into OO with C++ and wrote some of my finest code, some of which is still running on the network of this country’s largest LEC, and which I am under contract to provide support when their support teams reach a dead end.
During my career I had the opportunity to work with dozens of developers, many directly under my management. I hired some of these developers right out of university, some were like me and hobbyist turned pro.
I can say first hand, that I preferred the university educated, I found the hobbyists tended to be good at some very narrow aspects of computer science and lacked a strong foundation.
It was early in my professional career that I was enjoying success of a certain vision that I had for computer telephony systems, first line side then network side - SS7 feature / application development, that I realized from discussions with my formally educated colleagues that I was missing crucial foundations.
I back filled that with reading and additional self study. I suggest Knuth’s The Art of Programming - vol 3 was my favourite; Gauthier and Pont’s A Textbook on the Design of System Programs; and also more obscure titles like Stewart’s Fundaments of Signal Theory - understanding a (radar) range gate pull off attack will help you understand settlement rate toll fraud. Plus, you should read additional books on Multithreaded programming, operating system design, and software design principles. Oh, don’t forget Stroustrup’s Principles and Practice Using C++ - among other great principles he does touch on black box programming theory which I believe is a must when developing large applications. Oh, go learn Database Normal Forms as well - will save you from making rookie db design mistakes.
Today I am retired and back to being a hobbyist - doing whatever the hell I want, I have had fun developing on RPIs and ESP32s, have come to love Docker Containers, Python, MicroPython. Still write in C when I need something to really perform like lightning. I love learning new languages and new methodologies, and presently doing a bit of consulting for an AI company.
Can a self taught developer be successful, yes, I am proof, but I can tell you that the most successful developers that I have had the pleasure of working with had the strong foundations of a Computer Science degree, behind them would be those that had formal education in Computer Programming, and then my group, the self taught.
SirNoodleBendee@reddit
Aside from all the soft benefits to college, I think the main value in a computer science degree nowadays as opposed to self taught/workshops is that an accredited institution is (on paper) verifying that you have the knowledge you claim, which recruiters may be willing to put more faith in in a time where AI coding tools can trivialize the learning process for someone who lacks discipline.
IlyaAtLokalise@reddit
You can learn programming fully online, no real roadblock there. Uni isn't required. The thing it gives is more of the theoretical base and a consistent environment where you get pushed to go deeper. That can matter later, or it might not, depending on how you like to learn. If you're just building stuff for fun, you don't need to go. If at some point you feel you want the foundations and some structure, then uni can help. It's not all-or-nothing, I guess.
coffeefuelledtechie@reddit
If I was going to summarise it
Downside: I’ve only really used 10% of my computer science degree so for that, it hasn’t been worth it. Still got £18000 left to pay in student loans (not like the USA)
Upside: I became my own person at uni and I would not be where I am now in life if I didn’t go to uni and move out of home. Gained friends for life and so many personal skills. Best thing I ever did was go to uni.
AlSweigart@reddit
You don't need to spend the money on going to a university if you don't want to do this professionally. However, if you don't have a university degree at all and have the funds to attend, I'd highly recommend it. Especially if you're young and in your 20s.
Otherwise, if you live in a city, try to find local groups and meetups. There are also smaller regional conferences (such as the regional PyCons). It's great to meet people and make those connections.
Jaded_Individual_630@reddit
University is good for two things (outside of social, physical, and civic extracurricular engagement, which is all fine just not what I'm talking about)
Getting a credential that occasionally opens doors.
Investing in faculty networking.
1 is unduly minimized much of the time (JuSt a PiEcE oF pApEr). My degrees have done a lot for my life, albeit anecdotal.
2 is sorely, sorely underutilized. Are there bad faculty? Sure. There are bad mechanics too but it's hard to beat the expertise of a good one. Good faculty relationships and hooking into their networks can radically change the outcome of your university investment.
This all lies under the shadow of money of course, and that's a personal decision but one I won't pretend doesn't exist, but if you can swing it and really work to get the most out of the TRUE value, it's a hard experience to find anywhere else.
saucystas@reddit
I enrolled at a CS program at WGU that provides an expedited and much more reasonably priced option vs. a 4 year brick and mortar school. While I am a self learner, I found the structure and "having something on the line" did motivate me to get through. 6 months, $4k, and I will have a line item on my resume at the end.
Additionally, the curriculum has exposed me to things I may not have gone into by myself(such as computer architecture and operating systems). I will probably never use that knowledge, but some things I have been exposed to have piqued my curiosity for future learning.
Tobacco_Caramel@reddit
For programming no. But to study CS/IT as a whole yes. You can be a great programmer in off or on university.
ehr1c@reddit
If you're not after employment, no
HugsyMalone@reddit
Even if you are after employment, no. It's not the golden ticket to a better life everyone imagines it being. Everyone warned me not to go. I thought they were all crazy and just trying to keep me outta their kingdom of heaven where the streets are paved in gold and it rains money every 30 mins. Pft! Turns out I was the crazy one. Shoulda listened to them but I was too stubborn to do something like listen to anybody back then. It literally ruined my whole life. 🙄
ehr1c@reddit
A university degree doesn't and never has guaranteed employment, but not having one is a fairly large obstacle to overcome of late in this field.
funtrade396@reddit
lol best answer. I am self learning Freshman please hire me...lol
Resident-Buddy-4803@reddit
As a hobby, yes it is worth it
Dreddddddd@reddit
I went back to school for ITSS and graduated at 30 and have learned to code in my spare time and work as a dev on my team at work.
I do advanced SQL, Python, PowerShell, though much of that is scripting, which albiet is different in a lot of ways from some software dev stuff, so my experience will be different than some others on here. I've found learning things in this order; I've been a lot better in my specific subsect of Data Science, but I am also a total stats nerd so much of that came easy to me.
In honesty, most devs in my experience have been pretty bad at their jobs. I don't mean to say they perform poorly but they know very little CS outside of their specific discipline and area. What school taught me was exactly that. I learned how computers work, how servers work, networking concepts, software lifecycles, ITIL/HDI compliance, etc. THOSE things have made me stand out compared to my peers. Many of them did traditional computer science degrees and were pretty average at coding in general. They'll know specific things better than me but truth be told, I'm just more adaptable than them because of my skillset being interdisciplinary and more well rounded.
I think the reality is that you want to think through what a company wants out of a dev. Someone who is smart, reactive and proactive, someone who knows 10 programming languages, etc....but than they hire you to do one specific thing usually and it's not even related to all of that. So personally, if I can give my skillset one thing, it better prepares you to quickly learn and become advanced at stuff that will be useful for you at the time. Some quarters I'm a web dev, some quarters I'm a DBA, it really just depends on what they need.
So I would say for yourself, familiarize yourself with CS concepts and see what you enjoy. Do you actually enjoy coding/software lifecycles? Do you like working more with people/project management? Do you prefer to work with a static product you service over time or developing new products? These are all things you'll learn in your career, so just don't think you need to have every answer to get into this field. I know a lot of guys who worked in Engineering because they thought it would be good money and ended up going into technical sales, so life can take you places you'll never see.
The main thing is just going in with a good attitude and trying to learn in all things that you do. That Samurai mindset will do you well here if you get me 😅
Arctic_Ninja08643@reddit
Knowing how to program is one thing but understanding the concept, rules and how computers and the internet works is another. Sure you can learn it yourself by deep diving into the dark depths of Wikipedia but having a set curriculum does help to know what exactly you need to learn. Also the degree is a plus.
So its not a must to go to uni but if you have the opportunity, you should really consider it.
IfMoneyWereNoObject@reddit
Your results will vary
It kind of depends how much you can schmooze IMO. If you have charisma and are adept at self teaching, there nothing that a university will provide you EXCEPT (and this is a big exception) an official paper that says you have a degree, and job placement help that isn’t available on the internet for free. It’s never been harder to land a software job. It IS possible to get a job being self taught, albeit much more challenging. You have to network and lean into your strengths BIG time. I had a good story and that got me hired.
For me, in the end there was no guarantees of getting a job if I went to university, so I self taught. It took me a year to get employed and after 3 years since beginning this journey, I was able to convince a small startup to hire me as their lead developer. The tough part is getting your first job… but that’s increasingly requiring networking even if you have a degree.
anotherrhombus@reddit
Paying for clout and networking goes a very long way if you genuinely understand that. Most people's entire careers are built on the back of their network, and for many, learning how to build those kinds of relationships begins in university.
But, the question is learn programming. No, to simply learn programming you don't need any formal education. It vastly depends on your goals. If you want to be some form of developer, or even better, an engineer that's significantly different. You'll need a lot more skills than programming as that's not even 20% of what you get paid for these days and in the future, you're looking at even more dire numbers than that.
I'd sit down with yourself and ask what you want, try to find goals to set for yourself. Truthfully If you aren't programming and learning about computing on your own already, why do you think university is going to change that? Most professors aren't exactly dripping in excess inspiration these days to get you excited and pumped.
SmokyMetal060@reddit
Absolutely. I've worked with enough bootcamp devs to know that a CS degree puts the average grad a head and shoulders above the average bootcamp dev.
ButchDeanCA@reddit
Universities teach you programming concepts. You learn to program things on your own time (assuming a CS degree).
Maybe a software engineering one may be slightly different.
Alubsey@reddit
If you’re not looking for a job. No need to go to a university
HirsuteHacker@reddit
If you just want to learn programming then no, that would be pointless, you can learn programming yourself easily. Go to university if you want a really strong understanding of how things work, if you want to make a serious career out of it.
Odd_Technology_8926@reddit
To me, the only thing a university brings is a degree that is recognised by the industry.
I would suggest to get this degree as cheaply and easily as possible and to do your real learnings using online resources.
skip_the_tutorial_@reddit
This. And also get practical experience asap. I learned 99% of what I know either from working itself or from online resources
Philluminati@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
skip_the_tutorial_@reddit
What?
Boring_Psycho@reddit
A university is also a fertile ground for building strong connections within the industry and(depending on the school) good internship opportunities. That's the biggest advantage of going the college route in my opinion. The degree is just a nice little bonus.
scott2449@reddit
You don't go to university to learning programming. You go to learn computer science/engineering, very different.
FuzzySpeaker9161@reddit
For personal projects and fun, online resources are probably more than enough. University isn't strictly necessary.
wggn@reddit
You go to university to learn computer science.
mrmetaverse@reddit
Depends on how you learn. Will you apply yourself and focus? Can you go to Uni and still motivate yourself to self-teach at the same time? Cause you'll need both. If you're not able to focus then it's a waste of money.
tessduoy@reddit
If it’s just for fun, then no.. you don’t need university. Everything’s online now for free, and you’ll learn way more by actually building stuff. Degrees are mostly for structure and job credentials, not curiosity.
FumbleCrop@reddit
At a good undergraduate course you get: - a curriculum that makes sure you've touched all the important topics (don't expect to go into extreme depth, but there will be important topics you've ignored until now) - a respected institution who will attest that you've learned everything on that curriculum to a satisfactory standard
Looking being the curriculum, the fact that you completed such a degree shows your ambition and resilience. You also gain access to connections, partnerships, recruiters and people who really know their stuff and are eager to share this knowledge.
dariusbiggs@reddit
Yes, there are certain skills in software engineering and computer science that a quality tertiary education provider teaches and those skills seem to be lacking in those that went the self-taught route. These are skills related to architecting and the design of a greenfield project.
You will likely also get a good breadth of knowledge about the field, which will likely include some domain specific terminology related to the industry that will enable you to find and communicate relevant information.
You will likely (or more hopefully) learn enough about how computers, operating systems, and programming languages all work.
And finally you are hopefully exposed to many programming languages and learn the skills and understanding needed to be able to pick up any other programming language in 3 to 6 weeks.
However, you can get by without all that as both a hobby or professional career.
ZelphirKalt@reddit
Not for learning computer programming, but for the theoretical background knowledge and general understanding of what you are doing.
To learn computer programming, you will have to practice in a lot of programming projects. Sitting in a lecture and hearing things will not help as much.
Be aware, that for a good CS degree at a good university, there will be tons of math involved. And I mean not just same same like school math classes ... If that's not your thing, you might consider other subjects or non-university places.
Soft_Attention3649@reddit
If you are learning for fun and building projects, you don’t need university. Most programming skills come from practice and problem solving not lectures. Online resources and real projects will teach you faster and cheaper
Worried-Cockroach-34@reddit
Depends brother. If you want to be a wage slave with debt, no. If you from day one know what the fuck you want to do and exploit the system? Fucks yeah. Don't fall for romantic idealism, it's crap
TorNando@reddit
If you don't want a job. No. The market is terrible right now anyway. I learned best on with on the job training. School was mostly just to prove you could learn and pass HR screenings.
Playful_Ranger_6564@reddit
Just to learn programming? No
To get a job? Yes. Basically required.
reddithoggscripts@reddit
Uni provides a lot of motivation and structure rather than knowledge IMO. If you already have those, you don’t need uni.
Alarming-Piece-5836@reddit
I think programming is the only professional technical thing now that can be now done through self study and also has acceptance since the cs it field is moving so fast that it is not at all possible for a uni to keep pace with the changes
N3BB3Z4R@reddit
Programming is the last useful thing you should learn in university, the method of study, logics, micro and macro analysis, problem approaching tackling and solving is the strength, the languages and programming itself just happens along.
Dejf_Dejfix@reddit
I agree with the second point 100%, being surrounded by people with passion for the stuff I want to learn motivates me a lot
Traditional-Wonder16@reddit
No.
Ok-Lawfulness5685@reddit
The thing you are also missing is, you don't go to university to learn programming, you go there to learn computer science. They are not the same thing.
Tomorrows_Ghost@reddit
University is about giving you an opportunity, a dedicated time and social environment in which you can focus on learning. They don’t teach you any secrets that you can’t discover yourself, but in general the material should be higher quality than what you find online. But the most important bit: a social group, other like minded people in the same space, that are willing to work on projects with you. It’s so much easier to pull through if you have the right context and almost impossible to find that motivation if you’re all alone. I have yet to meet any solo hustler who actually pulled through with their online courses and home projects.
CodeToManagement@reddit
I’ve met some great self taught developers and some terrible ones. There are also great universities and terrible ones too.
Realistically you can learn either way and both have their benefits and drawbacks.
If you go to uni then you’ll have access to tutoring from experts and will meet peers who will be in the same industry eventually and could become lifelong friends. There’s a lot more to it than just the education - you can get great social aspects too, and joining societies will give you good experiences. You’ll also learn things you didn’t plan on - I did some intro to AI courses 15 years ago which I wouldn’t have done self studying.
The downside is the cost and time commitment. It takes 3 years because the education is much broader than self study.
If you go it alone you have to make sure you learn what you need to and that means studying theory as well as practical things. And you have to be your own harshest critic and look at your own work to see how you did things badly and how they need to improve.
You will save a lot of money - but it will be hard to break into the industry so you’ll need to build up a portfolio of work on github and you’ll have to really hustle with job and internship applications to get started in the industry.
My personal view is that education is very important and uni is a big achievement. However when I went to uni the cost (UK) was much lower than it is and if I were considering it these days I may think twice. However I personally don’t think self study would have been for me.
There is an intermediate option which could be self study for a while then look for an apprenticeship
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Espadalegend@reddit
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Abigail-ii@reddit
Going to university just to learn programming is overkill. Just like you don’t need to go to medical school to be able to administer first aid. Or get an English literature degree to write blog posts.
There are many reasons to go to university, but learning how to program isn’t one of them.
ReasonResitant@reddit
Your university degree is your "i am not a braindead moron" badge.
The better the uni the more you can be taken at your word when you claim you are not such. What and how you learn is of little significance. Your job wont have a course to prepare you for it in uni, figuring out what to learn and doing it is a skill you will have to employ in your career.
So now tell me why you should skip this? Laziness or being incredibly and obviously gifted are the only possible exemptions and only one leads to anything good.
jamielitt-guitar@reddit
Lots of interesting posts here. My take is a university degree will ABSOLUTELY benefit you! My degree is in Software Engineering and it was exactly what you think it’s going to be about. Yes, the learning material is already available and is free, but a degree will give you structured learning, mentoring and exposure to a lot more than just what is on line. I did my degree already coming from a programming background on ZX Spectrum and Commodore Amiga (for those who remember them!) and I thrived with my time at Uni and got into subjects such as Genetic Algorithms and Neural Networks which I never would have thought about just going through online resources to learn. A degree with give you breadth of not just coding, but also structure/design/architecture. It is definitely worth considering
Complex-Cancel-1518@reddit
the education system is scam at all
Abadhon@reddit
Knowledge is everywhere but some people dont have the discipline to learn on their own
smotired@reddit
The CS degree in college teaches different things than just learning to program. You learn less about how to use various software technologies and more about how they work and why they were designed the way they were. You also study a fair bit of math.
It’s not required to learn programming however I do definitely think I’m a much better programmer because of it.
Master-Rub-3404@reddit
Is university worth it to gain industry connections and references? Absolutely yes. Is university worth it to learn programming? Absolutely not. If you’re not even looking for a job, it is 1000% a terrible idea and a waste of time, money, and mental health.
FeedYourEgo420@reddit
A big part of acieveing a tradional degree is that is shows an ability to commit to something larger than you. Without a degree I'd argue to be competitive you'd want a extensive github. Many projects under your belt. It's more than just learning how to do it
ern0plus4@reddit
10% chance yes, 90% no. Maybe 20/80.
A good university is gold, can learn stuff which you can't learn anywhere else, and/or you'll have no time for it rest of your life.
A bas university is waste of time, false safety.
Total-Box-5169@reddit
Unknown unknowns will prevent you from learning everything you need. You will believe you don't need X because you don't know its practical applications. You are not going to be aware Y event exists. Z will feel to be completely out of your league so you are not even going to try. And you will never look at W because it seems completely unrelated.
fergie@reddit
Most established universities offer Software Engineering, or Computer Science, or some more niche version of these (Machine Learning, Usability Design, Virtual Environments, etc). Its actually pretty common to graduate having not actually coded that much.
lexybot@reddit
To learn programming? No. To learn computer science? Yes.
Przmak@reddit
It's not, but likely no one will hire you without it, even if you are on 1 year.
jqVgawJG@reddit
I was taught programming in college but in private hobby project is where I really learned it.
And that was with physical books, as the internet wasn't yet what it is today.
Nowadays you can click your way through any project's documentation. There is no reason why you can't learn solo anymore, other than laziness.
nealfive@reddit
Not really. But if you don’t already have a degree, may as well. So many jobs have it as a requirement.
HugsyMalone@reddit
...and you learn after-the-fact this is how they manipulate you. America is way behind other countries in the education game. Other countries know us as "the stupid Americans." 🙄
notislant@reddit
Fuck no.
Job market is beyond fucked, even people with years of experience doing the actual work? Can't find a job.
You'd really struggle to get a job without one, especially in the market as it is now. Though you'd struggle regardless and be out 4 years of time and money.
Boring_Psycho@reddit
The degree is just a small bonus. The real advantage is that it's a fertile ground for building a strong network that can serve you your entire career if you play your cards right.
tkitta@reddit
Sad but true.
SaunaApprentice@reddit
The top top players in any field didn’t get to the top via formal education only.
Mayedl10@reddit
A cs degree isn't JUST programming, it also includes all the stuff from other aspects of computer science
Philluminati@reddit
> I'm curious if there's something you can learn only in university but not from online resources
You'll have a mentor to guide you and make sure your knowledge is broad and deep and complete. Without that, you will probably go off and do a bit of Python and think you're good when you're not.
You think you can do a bit of reading in the evenings and get the same result and someone who is spending 3 years studying a subject full time, who doesn't just read, but has to write essays on those books, engage their critical thinking, get them marked and who have their ideas challenged by Mentors?
You cannot replicate the university experience.
Boring_Psycho@reddit
If you're young, have no major responsibilities, got people willing to sponsor you, and looking to pursue this as a lifelong career, then college is a good choice not because you'll learn programming better there but because(depending on the school), it's a very fertile ground for getting good internship opportunities and building a strong network in the industry that'll serve you your whole career.
The degree is also a nice bonus.
If you don't fit the above criteria, you're better off going the self-taught route.
Won-Ton-Wonton@reddit
There is NOTHING that a University teaches, at a 4-yr level, that cannot be learned on your own.
There is a ton of things that you probably won't learn, and tons of things that would be easier, and tons of things you won't ever use.
The main reason to go to Uni is for that paper at the end that says, "I put in multiple years of effort and work in this, my odds of flaking or being an idiot are much lower, and I definitely know at least some of what you need me to know to learn how to do this job."
A self-taught has to do a lot more to prove themselves to be a valuable asset.
NotMyGovernor@reddit
The amount of people who cheat in university is off the charts.
plastikmissile@reddit
So are the number of people lying in their CVs. The degree isn't a guarantee that someone knows programming. It just say that there's a good chance that they do, so pass them through to the next filter, which will test that claim. Since you can't pass through everyone due to the sheer volume of people applying to dev jobs, a lot of companies will filter out anyone who doesn't have a degree, just to make the intake more manageable.
HugsyMalone@reddit
Yep. They just ran away from the nice guy living off a mattress on the floor of his empty apartment who they thought was a serial killer. Ironically, this guy would've treated them right but they just ran into the arms of a blatant abuser who's eventually gonna beat the shit outta them. Oh well. Nice guys finish last, I guess. 🙄
BVAcupcake@reddit
And ur point is, there is no one overseeing you at home
HugsyMalone@reddit
Yeah. I would absolutely argue that going to uni would be a waste of OP's time if he doesn't have a clear career goal in mind that would require going that route. Let's face it. Most people don't have any clear goals in mind when they enter collage at 18. They just go because they're told it's the right thing to do if they don't want society to label them an unemployed deadbeat who isn't enrolled in school and will never amount to anything. At least if they're enrolled in school then they're just unemployed deadbeats who will never amount to anything. 🙄👌
Difficult-Fact1769@reddit
If I could go back in time, I wouldn't. Unless it's a really highly globally ranked uni, I wouldn't bother. I'd rather have spent those 4 years at home creating a portfolio of projects and paired it up with some certs.
HugsyMalone@reddit
No. 😒👌
NewBlock8420@reddit
I think you can learn most programming concepts online these days. The main advantage of university is the structured curriculum and forced deadlines, which can be super helpful if you struggle with self discipline.
NeedleworkerIll8590@reddit
If its JUST to learn programming, no.
internetuser@reddit
CS is not really “learning to program”, at least not at a university worth attending. A lot of it is more like math. I suggest you watch some CS101 lectures on Youtube and see if you like it.
tkitta@reddit
Yeah but CS101 may actually be intro to basic programming - 2nd year curse may be intro to programming logic, proof of correctness and basic algorithm complexity calculations.
makonde@reddit
If you want to get a job then University is very useful especially if it includes internships because these are experience that is very important in todays market, you also get a piece of paper which most jobs will filter you our if you dont have.
As far a learning how to program no, you can learn everything on your own and I would say you can spend your time much better if you just want programming, especially with todays resources, there are many industry things that a lot of CS courses dont touch really fo us on such as testing, CICD, hell even git, also I had to take unrelated courses in accounting, math, law, economics etc.
A lot of professors also are surprisingly poor teachers or are not really interested in the teaching part of being a professor.
tkitta@reddit
Maybe. As a web developer with 25 years of said development I rarely used anything from my degree other then maybe problem solving skills.
One of my professors said that if you want to just learn to code go to technical college and finish few courses.
e430doug@reddit
You don’t go to university to learn programming. You go to learn Computer Science. What programming you do, do you largely teach yourself. The prof may devote a lecture or two on the language you are to use. It is up to you to learn how. Go to university to learn how to solve problems with computers.
exploradorobservador@reddit
CS and programming are like EE and electrician work. And with AI now, a lot of that work that used to pay well, like learning frameworks is less valuable.
Intelligent_Panic564@reddit
That's a great question, and it's smart to ask since you're not just looking for a job.
Here's the distinction: Online resources are fantastic (and often better than uni) for learning a specific language or framework. You can become an expert in Python, React, or C# entirely on your own.
What a good university (a Computer Science degree, specifically) teaches you is the theory behind it all, which is much harder to self-teach because it's less "fun." You'll learn about data structures, algorithm efficiency (like Big O notation), computer architecture, and operating systems. This is the "why" something works, not just "how" to build it.
Since you're building projects for fun, you absolutely don't need it. But if you ever get curious about why one sorting algorithm is faster than another, or how your computer actually manages memory, that's the kind of knowledge a CS curriculum gives you. You won't hit a "roadblock" without it, but it can definitely make you a more well-rounded and capable programmer in the long run.
CowMaximum6831@reddit
You will get an exposure to new people and their mindset about learning programming if you consider going. So I would say, unless there is something more important for you to do other than going uni, go for it
balrob@reddit
Comp Sci degrees aren’t necessarily about programming - although that will definitely be a component.
A programming course likely wouldn’t teach networking and the OSI model, cpu design, assembly languages, OS design, compiler design, security, data structures and algorithms, etc etc. A degree course should be a broad education.
EnD3r8_@reddit
No
Signal-Actuator-1126@reddit
I'm saying this with my own experience, literally, I haven't learning anything from my degree. I wish someone had told me this sooner. For the learning aspect, even if you have a degree, you have to learn and figure it out on your own. Having a degree won't teach you anything. Learning happens only when you work practically through projects or jobs.
A degree is just a paper that has your name. People mostly do it just to get that name or add it to their resume. If you want to be socialised or have fun, you can go for a degree and waste your money and time.
Dean-KS@reddit
One part of university is that many are cut from the hurd, so it is a selective culling process with people moving on who are better instinctual problem solvers and hard workers. Take Engineering 1/2 of the entrants in a good school are not there in year two. So the degree is for survivors and a good recruiter knows that to some degree or another.
VadumSemantics@reddit
Why not both?
You can take many university classes online.
For free.
And sure, you don't need a school to teach you things. But... really smart people spend a lot of energy thinking about how to explain concepts. Anyway, I'd look for topics you might find interesting and try them out.
Examples: General Introductions to Programming (MIT)
Stanford: search on
computer+free. These seem pretty deep, I'd want solid math before going into something like "Convex Optimization".1200 Free Computer Science Courses from the World’s Top Universities (Free Code Camp excerpt:
ps. You might find some classes / instructors so great you want to go learn from them. Nothing wrong with learning what you like now and maybe going deeper in the future.
noonemustknowmysecre@reddit
Man, I've told a lot of kids to go learn to code. And now all this is happening...
Oh. Well then, yeah, go for it. It's your money to burn.
WrongZookeepergame49@reddit
Despite what many say, the main point of going to university is to find a job. The degree allows you to fulfill the basic requirements of a job listing. If it didn’t, very few people would go to college.
I do not think spending thousands of dollars on CS classes will be worth it if you’re simply an enthusiast. I would recommend just going to some college’s MOOC and work through that; it will be infinitely cheaper. Plus, with that leftover money, you can hire a CS tutor to help you.
PartyParrotGames@reddit
Nothing you can learn at a university that you can't for free online when it comes to programming and CS more generally. No educational roadblock, just need time, access to a working computer, and internet access.
Pack_Your_Trash@reddit
If your goal is to be a software engineer a degree will help you get a job because there are plenty of egos surrounding academics. Yes, you can self teach everything but there are certain jobs that will always be unavailable to you without a degree.
There is also the fact that most people learn better in a school setting than self teaching. You might be the kind of person who learns better just locking themselves in their apartment for 6 months to learn to code, but those people are exceptional.
I say this as someone who did not go the academic route, and is also not a great self teacher. I did a mixture of support jobs and self teaching followed by a boot camp. I would say that I already knew half of what the boot camp taught, but it got me over the final hump to go from support engineer to software development. If I could do it all over again I would have done computer science in college, but good luck telling that to 18-22 year old me.
BruteCarnival@reddit
Considering you aren’t looking for a software engineering job, I’d say university is not necessary you can learn it all on your own.
That said, what the degree did beyond what I would have learnt without, is it forced me to learn all basic parts of software engineering. Specifically it also forced me to learn a bunch of stuff I didn’t have particular interest in and thus probably would not have gone out and studied in my own. And a lot of those things have actually helped me when I have come across some obscure bug or issue and while debugging realised “oh wait that is actually related to x”.
Technically you could always force yourself or just follow the syllabus if a certain degree.
Apprehensive-Log3638@reddit
As someone who did go to University, no.
If you want to get a Job, getting a four year degree is beneficial. If this is a hobby, then you will learn way more at home. One of my frustrations Junior/Senior year was lack of time to do projects. I was dedicating 50-60 hours minimum each week to studies. The two week breaks between semesters I would get sucked into a cool project, feel like I was growing, then have to put it down for 16 weeks.
Millkstake@reddit
You don't need to but a degree looks good and could put you ahead of other candidates.
NotMyGovernor@reddit
Universities literally boast that when it comes to “programming” they aren’t teaching you to be a “programmer” but instead a “scientist”.
There aren’t many software jobs where you’re a being a scientist. And they’re either ruthlessly already picked up or ironically taken by people in the science specifically and just picked up programming on the fly.
jthedwalker@reddit
Everything you need is online and free. University will help you with employment. There are even free Ivy League school courses online for free.