why is torque usually disregarded?
Posted by vanderzee@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 207 comments
gets me wondering why is toque so oftenly disregarded? is speed all that matters for most people?
i usually hear people talking about horsepower, and car/engine specifications its also the horsepower in bold letters, and the torque oftenly is not plain to see (sometimes it has to be looked up elsewhere)
wouldnt for the average persons needs a vehicle with low hp and high torque be much more useful and practical then high hp and low toque?
rudbri93@reddit
because a lot of people dont understand that torque and horsepower go hand in hand. Horsepower is just torque applied over time.
Kdoesntcare@reddit
Horsepower is (torque x revs)/5252
writing_fun390@reddit
Which is why on every dyno graph on an engine that exceeds 5252 RPM, the torque line and horsepower line cross at 5252 RPM. Because at 5252 RPM Horsepower equals torque X 1.
YueNica@reddit
thought if it torque is not in ft-lbs but in nm then it's 7127. And if power is in kw instead then it would be different again. So to say all dyno graphs will cross at 5252 isn't entirely accurate. as it depends on the units used
writing_fun390@reddit
If you want to get really technical, torque is never measured in ft-lbs. Torque is measured in lb-ft, which is a measurement of force on a lever acting on a cylindrical object. Ft-lbs is a measure of work used in ballistics to measure the force on a projectile over the length of a barrel.
DBDude@reddit
The old Army 5-tons got almost 700 lb-ft of torque at 1,500 rpm and redlined at 2,100 rpm with 240 hp.
Monotask_Servitor@reddit
Today I learned this! Thanks
YueNica@reddit
thought the number you divide by and this cross over point will vary depending on the units you use.
Repulsive_Client_325@reddit
Formula is for hp, rpm and ft-lbs.
sbrijska@reddit
In imperial
505backup_1@reddit
And what most people mistake torque for is just the power curve
allgasnoshit@reddit
Exactly. An engine that delivers 600lb-ft of torque at 2500rpm will, in theory, feel much more powerful/responsive than an engine that delivers 700lb-ft at 6750rpm.
Phrexeus@reddit
I find this analogy a bit strange because you're not comparing at equal rpm.
But in reality the second engine would be significantly faster because you can use lower gearing and make more torque at the wheels.
Gazer75@reddit
Imagine replacing that with a motor that has that torque from 0 rpm. Then we can talk about fun.
Kevinthecarpenter@reddit
Beat it electro nerd. Also it's not 0rpm, it has to be anything over 0rpm, you have to rotate to make rotational force
wadeissupercool@reddit
Torque does not require rotation.
dhammer731@reddit
It is literally in the definition. "A twisting force that tends to cause rotation"
shikkonin@reddit
Exactly. But you don't need any rotation to exert torque.
allgasnoshit@reddit
No sound, no drama. Been in a 400hp Model 3 LR before and something’s just missing.
Rapom613@reddit
Yup. Drive a GT3 and a Carrera GTS back to back, similar amounts of HP but dramatically different torque curves. The GTS feels faster in every scenario, the GT3 just sounds faster
the_Q_spice@reddit
And trust me, from experience, a Cummins feels very different in an airport tug than a truck.
Tugs use a 3.3 making a paltry 65hp…
But a whopping 250-300 lb/ft of torque.
Literally just today was pulling a 2-train of cargo dollies weighing about 16,000lbs combined.
You touch the accelerator and that thing just kinda goes.
They do top out at only 10mph though.
TNShadetree@reddit
Since when is 300 lb/ft "whopping"?
My 69 Pontiac 400 spools up 430 in factory trim. A tweak here and there an you're approaching 500.
nasadowsk@reddit
Dyno sheet?
Parking-Pie7453@reddit
Low gears help a lot
mxracer888@reddit
Well it certainly helps that the 3.3 is massively different than the 6.7L found in your truck. In fact, I'm pretty sure the 3.3 isn't found in any road-going vehicle.
And gearing also plays a huge role for multiplication of torque
clintj1975@reddit
Not stock, but they can be used for engine swaps in things like Jeeps.
DIY-exerciseGuy@reddit
You realize trucks were making 600 lb/ft 20 years ago?
Weak_Educator5614@reddit
Just friggin facts here.
Charmander787@reddit
Yep same with the LT2 vs the LT6 in the C8 corvette.
The LT2 has more torque so it’s more responsive at the low end whereas the LT6 rewards you for revving it to redline.
PetriDishCocktail@reddit
Great answer. Same thing happens with the BMW M2 versus m240i. The m240i feels faster in day-to-day driving because of the torque curve and AWD.
Ok-Response-839@reddit
Yep, the S58 is very much tuned for top-end power. At 1,800 rpm the M240i is making 150 Nm more than the M2. Although in reality this is not super noticeable over 50 km/h as the M2 is able to downshift to get into the power band.
clintj1975@reddit
Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races.
GoofyKalashnikov@reddit
Queue Audi diesels in lemans or something
clintj1975@reddit
427 side oiler in Lemans? Crazy.
SkiyeBlueFox@reddit
This is why theory is just as important as anything else. Not only do you need to know the measurement, you need to know why the measurement. Torque vs hp is a perfect example. Since horsepower originates from the work one horse can do in a full work day, a horse can, in short bursts, exceed 1hp.
You need to know how much you can lift at once. Lifting 10x as much weight over 1/10th the distance requires the same horsepower, but more torque. The same amount of total work is done, but it requires more instantaneous force
gravelpi@reddit
Fwiw, a person can exceed 1hp for a short amount of time. 1hp is 745 Watts. Pro cyclists can double that in a sprint. I'm just an old guy, but I can hit that for a few seconds, lol.
Hersbird@reddit
A person can easily generate 1000 ft-lbs of torque or more through gearing or leverage. Horsepower is the number you need to know if you want the work done quickly as in how quick something accelerates. No matter how you gear or leverage it, a person will struggle to make even 1 hp, yet 1000 ft-lbs basically a toddler could do with a long enough lever.
wadeissupercool@reddit
1 horsepower for brief periods is a normal amount for normal healthy people. If by struggle you mean we can't keep it up for an 8 hour shift, then absolutely, we can't do that.
gravelpi@reddit
The power meter on my bike says 750W+ for a few seconds. That's 1hp. If you don't believe me about the pros, check out the last section on this link: https://www.scienceinsport.com/sports-nutrition/cycling-how-do-your-stats-compare-to-the-pros-tour-de-france-edition/
There are guys averaging 1/2 hp for an hour, and doing 1500W (2hp) for 20s. Maybe we're talking about different things, but we're not talking about momentary spikes based on standing on a pedal with a lot of resistance to get massive torque numbers.
topherhead@reddit
What I like to tell people is that when thinking about horsepower and torque is that torque can be made from horsepower but horsepower can't be made from torque.
An engine that has 100hp/50tq is capable of accelerating faster than an engine that has 50hp/100tq. This assumes the optimal gearing for each.
Repulsive_Client_325@reddit
Horsepower is power. That is, a certain amount of energy produced (work done) in a certain amount of time.
Work is force applied over a distance.
Torque is force applied at a distance from a rotational point.
Multiplying torque by rotational displacement gives you work. If you determine how much work (rotational displacement x rotational force) is done in a given time, you get power.
So torque is a component, mathematically, of engine horsepower.
Horsepower is literally “made from” torque.
And as others have said, if you are using imperial units, HP = torque in ft•lbs x RPM / 5252
ctjack@reddit
Stand next to a tall shelf. Extend your arms and try to move it forward by pushing it - that is the torque. With torque but low hp, your legs are moving slowly.
Do the same but instead of pushing it by digging into the ground, try to run standing on the same place for max speed of your legs - from a side it looks like you are running but with 0 torque shelf is not moving.
Classic_rock_fan@reddit
They don't always though, look at diesels for example they can have relatively low HP but make tons of torque. My diesel Grand Cherokee only makes 260HP but turns out 460ft-lbs of torque.
LazyLancer@reddit
Was about to say exactly what you said, but I think the OP is talking more about the practicality rather than speed of a car. When it comes to normal daily driving, engines with strong low end torque that don’t rev as much are more practical and convenient to use than revvy high-rpm engines despite producing same peak horsepower.
AutonomousOrganism@reddit
Horsepower is torque times rpm.
nsfbr11@reddit
No. Horsepower is the product of torque and rotational speed.
idownvoteanimalpics@reddit
Low end torque and high end torque are both equally delicious
BocaBlue69@reddit
Audi C5 RS6. Peak torgue from 1900 to 5600rpm IIRC
Classic_rock_fan@reddit
Low end torque is a lot more fun though because you get that instant pull vs having to wait for the RPM to come up, my diesel makes 460 ft-lbs at 1800 RPM.
MisterCircumstance@reddit
Mid range torque is mighty tasty, too
LHCThor@reddit
Where I live, everyone owns trucks and we all tow something. So torque is important to us. Torque and gear ratios.
But for the average car driver, speed is more important than torque.
TheVanillaGorilla413@reddit
The electric car fan boys seem to like to throw it around “instant torque!” 🤭
TheseCod2660@reddit
Hp is how fast it goes, torque is how fast it gets there. Depending on several factors, mainly transmission gearing and rear end gear set will determine how you should shape the torque curve down low. Short gearing = aggressive = can’t get traction = subtract torque and move the curve up top. The opposite for long gearing.
Any pro team or racing team is looking at that and how it flows with the goals of the car.
max1mx@reddit
No it’s not. Torque has nothing to do with acceleration.
Hersbird@reddit
Torque can always be made with gearing, horsepower is a measure of power. I can make 1000 ft-lbs of torque with my arms and a lever, even 10,000 ft-lbs. But no matter what if do I can never makr more than maybe 1/2 a horsepower because I can't make that torque at a fast rate which is what a power measurement is like horsepower.
max1mx@reddit
You could definitely make more than half a horsepower, just not for long.
BirdSignificant8269@reddit
The thing that gives you that ‘pushed back into my seat’ feeling is torque - when you’re driving something with a lot of low/mid range torque, and you want to overtake someone, you just flex your right foot and the car goes. That is torque.
Meanwhile, a car that needs to be revved in order to change speed might have ‘plenty’ of HP, but has little torque (Mazda rx8, for example) will feel much less ‘fast’ - even if it ultimately has more HP. In this case, it has higher top end because of revs really high.
shikkonin@reddit
Bullshit. Acceleration pushes you into the seat.
max1mx@reddit
Agree, hop in a 2000ftlb Peterbuilt and tell me how hard it pushes you back in your seat.
chonas76@reddit
Someone once told me horsepower is how fast you hit the wall and torque is how far you push it after you hit it
max1mx@reddit
That person would be totally wrong, that statement doesn’t make a bit of sense.
Blue8Evan@reddit
Torque is a unit of force. It only tells you how much pulling or pushing power a car has at any given time. Horsepower is a unit of power, it tells you how fast the car can create and maintain that force over time. Horsepower is torque x RPM (then a unit conversion).
For 99% of people, horsepower does the job just fine because horsepower is a better indicator of what a car can do. A car with high torque and low hp is only going to be good at pulling heavy loads at low speeds, and low-end acceleration, but a decent torque, decent hp car will be much better at literally everything else.
For the vehicles that DO need higher torque, it's usually a selling point, but also keep the horsepower figure because it's a byproduct of torque. But for the cars that don't need it, it's disregarded because it doesn't tell you anything horsepower wouldn't already.
max1mx@reddit
A vehicle with high torque and low HO isn’t going to be any better at pulling a heavy load at low speeds than anything with more HP.
51onions@reddit
Nitpick:
Torque isn't a unit. Torque is the rotational analogue to force.
Newtons are a unit of force, Newton metres are a unit of torque.
DaChronisseur@reddit
Because horsepower is honestly more useful outside of towing/hauling a ton of weight. A vehicle that puts down 600 lb ft of torque at 2000 RPM is worth Jack shit to me if it redlines at 2500 RPM. I want to know how quickly it can get from 20 mph to 70 mph since that's what's needed when I'm on the on-ramp and horsepower (to weight ratio) gives me a much better idea of what that's going to be.
Radioactive_Kumquat@reddit
You ain't doing shit in an S2000 from 20 to 70. A Camry will pull on a S2000.
DaChronisseur@reddit
Did I say anything about an S2000? Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet that any Camry that's better from 20 to 70 than an S2000 has a better power to weight ratio.
disgruntledarmadillo@reddit
In 6th, no. If you bang it off the limiter through the gears you'll get there before any camry except the TRD (identical 1/4 mile time to s2000)
Radioactive_Kumquat@reddit
Uh, you just proved my point. A CAMRY grocery getter outperforms a dedicated 2 seater sports car. How much does a Camry weigh again? Torque folks, and the S2000 is a bitch. Try again.
Bubbly-Pirate-3311@reddit
The BRAND NEW Camry TRD outperformed a 20 YEAR OLD SPORTS CAR? WHAT A FUCKING REVELATION!
I think you might be slower than you think the s2000 is. It's a ton of fun, and what it lacks in straight line speed, it makes up for with 9000rpm and handling like a damned scalpel
sbrijska@reddit
You're saying if the S2000 is not driven properly but the Camry is, then the Camry can putperform the S2000. Wow, what an insane finding!
ktappe@reddit
It sounds a lot like an S2000 ran over your dog or something. Let it go.
disgruntledarmadillo@reddit
Wtf does that mean? Plenty of sports cars are beaten by "grocery getters" is an M5 a grocery getter?
What is your problem with the s2000? People who know how to drive rate them, they're great for a 20 year old car. What do you drive?
Fwiw I drive a tuned m57 diesel I know very well the importance of torque
mikkowus@reddit
Horsepower is more useful even in towing if you have a really good transmission.
AbruptMango@reddit
Torque issues can be solved by being in the appropriate gear.
general_sirhc@reddit
I dislike this argument because while it's factually correct, it implies that the issue can be resolved within the factory provided gear ratios.
For example, I was recently looking for a vehicle that would be towing.
If my tow requirement is a modest 1800kg, lots of vehicles can do this. If I assume gearing can resolve my issue, I'll go buy the vehicle with the highest Kw and assume it'll do well. If I go the other way I may choose to buy a vehicle with a very high torque rating but find it's slow to get up to higher speeds.
As a consumer this is confusing
elliomitch@reddit
Towing and acceleration are different use cases, so you should look for different parameters
general_sirhc@reddit
Are they not just different gearing?
What would you recommend looking at?
AbruptMango@reddit
Horsepower is needed to move the mass. Torque is needed to change the speed of that mass. Gearing, essentially, converts horsepower to torque.
Vehicles generally have enough power to move themselves at an acceptable speed with their seats filled and some luggage. Fully load a car and it'll accelerate more slowly but will still do fine. Add a trailer to that and you simply don't have enough power- everything you've got is being converted to the torque needed to "accelerate" against all the drag. The limiting factor I horsepower.
Get a truck that's "overpowered" and you're good. Slap a real load on it and it's now appropriately powered.
Engines are designed for different uses as well. My Honda produces the most power from roughly 4-5k with a redline of 7k. So if I want to zoom or am hauling (my trailer is bigger than most pickup beds) I'll make sure I'm in the right gear to get that power. But that's in an engine meant to move a small car. An engine meant for a truck will produce more power at lower RPM so it's not straining to pull a load.
max1mx@reddit
There is a pretty big misunderstanding of torque and HP here.
elliomitch@reddit
Look at the combination of tow rating, peak power and torque figures, and engine displacement
egowritingcheques@reddit
Exactly. Engine torque doesn't matter. Wheel torque (after the gearbox) does matter.
Gazer75@reddit
Or just replace the antiquated engine with a motor :P
Reejerey1@reddit
This.
max1mx@reddit
Because torque doesn’t really matter that much when comparing cars and their performance. Torque can be created through gearing, and has no relevance to acceleration on its own. Granted, all things being equal, an engine with more peak torque will probably have more horsepower under curve, but that’s a generality. Horsepower is the unit most used to describe the amount of work the motor is capable of because it takes into account time.
This video explains it really well. https://youtu.be/wK5i6mpetbw?si=1Y9xOWfIFYvJP5o1
Beneficial-Ad-6846@reddit
People buy horsepower but drive torque
shikkonin@reddit
No. You can turn HP into torque, you can't turn torque into HP.
nerobro@reddit
There's a long story here. But I'll try to make it quick.
"torque" Tells you very, very little about an engine. Without RPM Torque is a number that tells you nothing. If you add rpm, you now have horsepower. So why not just talk about horsepower? The unit "horsepower" includes torque.
Horsepower isn't "is speed all that matters". Horsepower is \~all that matters\~. If you have 3000lbft of torque, and just 30hp, you're not going to accelerate any faster than the 30lbft 30hp motor.
Also "torque" lies. Because they talk about peak torque. I had a car that made essentailly the same horsepower at 2000rpm as at 5800rpm. Which means it's peak torque was at 2000rpm.
Logizyme@reddit
If we have access to the entire horsepower curve, you are right: torque is irrelevant. With a fully mapped curve we can see what the power is through the entire range of engine speed.
When all we have available to us is peak output numbers, which is commonplace, those who understand the relationship between horsepower and torque can infer quite a bit about an engine's output characteristics.
A great example is the 2014 F150 and it's 3.5 turbo V6 and 5.0 V8. Both engines make nearly identical peak horsepower and make it at the same RPM.
So basically the engines output is the same right? No. When we add peak torque values we see a stark difference.
As us gearheads expected, the turbochargers give the smaller V6 much higher torque, and we can extrapolate from that peak torque data point that the power curve at lower RPMs will be higher than that of the larger naturally aspirated V8. The turbo V6 will perform better in the everyday driving 2000-4000 RPM range than the V8.
Both engines at WOT operating at their peak horsepower output will be quite similar. Again, if we had a full graph of horsepower output, the V6 would show us significantly higher horsepower output in the lower RPM ranges and peak torque would not be important, but seldom do we have full power graphs published. This is what makes torque vital information if all we have published to us is peak output
eldakar666@reddit
My car does 172 nm at 1500-4000. Is that good?
CleMike69@reddit
HP is great but I’ll take The torque please
ktappe@reddit
Depends on what job you’re trying to do. If you’re hauling a 10,000 pound trailer, yes of course you want torque.
CleMike69@reddit
Reworked my trans pushing 550hp and 730tq to the wheels the torque makes it crazy fun
Sekiro50@reddit
A Honda S2000 is way more fun to drive than a RAM 2500. I'll take the HP please
mikkowus@reddit
Horsepower is torque... But with rpm added to the torque.
FZ_Milkshake@reddit
Because engine torque is meaningless without knowing the (final-) drive ratios, what matters is horsepower, that tells you all you need to know. More horsepower = more acceleration, more pulling potential, more everything (unless you are going so slow that you are below peak power for even 1st gear).
Hersbird@reddit
Exactly this. The Gladiator used to come with 2 engine options, everything else basically the same, transmission, axles, gearing, etc. One motor made 260 hp and 442 ft-lbs of torque. The other made 285 hp and only 260 ft-lbs of torque. Guess which one had quicker acceleration? The 285 hp low torque, because 285 hp beats 260 hp even of the 260 had way more torque. The torque is made on the 285 motor by the ability to hold each gear multiplication longer.
humanzRtrash@reddit
Basically the same gearing? The pentastar gas motor came with an axle gear ratio of 4.10 whereas the EcoDiesel axle gear ratio is 3.73.
That 4.10 axle gear ratio is what gives the pentastar gas motor Its quick acceleration which is short-lived because the EcoDiesel variant can accelerate in the 45 mph to 75 mph range better than the pentastar.
If they had the same axle gear ratio the EcoDiesel is going to out accelerate the pentastar.
A 4.10 gear axle ratio multiplies torque more than a 3.73 while sacrificing MPG and higher top speed.
Horsepower sells cars. Torque wins races.
mikkowus@reddit
First well worded post. And maybe one of the few who actually understands how things work
Colors08@reddit
Kids love power adders like turbos. One day they will understand there is no replacement for displacement. /Half sarcasm
Chance_Storage_9361@reddit
Torque figures used to be a lot more relevant when we had three and four speed transmissions.
AI-Idaho@reddit
As a TDI owner and fan, and having driven diesel trucks for decades, I love high torque engines. Actually considering buying another TDI Q5 at the moment.
Classic_rock_fan@reddit
I drive a diesel Grand Cherokee and love the low end pulling power it has, it makes accelerating on highway ramps so easy.
Remarkable_Ad5011@reddit
When I built my 416ci LS3, I focused on mods that increased low and mid range torque production. The car is a beast at slow speeds and pulls from the midrange like a jet at takeoff. I even put a 3.90 diff gear for even more acceleration potential. It’s a blast! 💥
jd780613@reddit
find a car that has a diesel option and a higher hp gas option, test drive both and get back to us with the results
cropguru357@reddit
It’s not, really. Horsepower is a calculation of (torque*RPM)/5252.
On a dyno graph, you’ll always see the lines intersect at 5262 RPM.
kreativegaming@reddit
I dont think so, I knew a lot of people that wanted certain cars because they took off faster even if they wouldn't be as fast on the top end because honestly when you are a kid and want to feel fast in a big city the take off is all you got.
I love mustangs because of that high torque first gear, makes the car feel so damn powerful even on the v6 models. Sure the high end gears aren't satisfying but getting to them is a blast and feels like power on demand.
Its why so many kids wanted those all wheel drive imports because they got the power to the ground faster. That being said there is such a thing as too much torque, I remember seeing a truck take off and the bed went freaking diagonal and I was like that's just stupid.
colinshark@reddit
Torque is disregarded because me on a bicycle makes something like 150 lbs-ft of torque at the crank, and we all know that a 5 lbs-ft moped is going to outrun me.
Average power to the wheels is a meaningful metric for acceleration and top speed. Torque as a single number is not.
Iffy50@reddit
You must be a hell of a cyclist if you are generating 150 ft-lbs of torque!
ronwegs11@reddit
Because torque is cheap!!
GrizzlyInks@reddit
As others have said, lack of understanding. When I was first learning about engines and making power the way my first mentor put it to me is that horsepower is how hard you hit the wall, but torque is how far you take the wall with you after you hit it. Not sure why but it clicked for my brain after that.
sneakerfreaker303@reddit
This is exactly why I consider torque per ton when looking at cars to buy, it gives a better idea of how quick it will feel in normal driving compared to other cars. I plotted these on a graph to compare lots of cars torque/ton with interesting results. For example, when I had a 500 Abarth, I had it tuned and it had 234lb.ft/ton - damn near a 2018 Porsche 911 gt3 (240lb.ft/ton). Explains why I didn’t have much trouble keeping up with sporty cars far more exotic than the A500 lol
Born4Nothin@reddit
Only to non car people
QLDZDR@reddit
Yes annoying that Dad's old banger has so much torque down in the low revs and the suspension is so tired that the combination makes the car feel like it is launching itself off the start line compared to the Aston Martin that feels like it is gradually building up speed.
The comments like "are we moving yet?". "I don't think we will be on time at this rate" "we should take Dad's banger so we can reserve a parking space for you" etc
Torque makes the car feel like it has some power.
Depress-Mode@reddit
IMO torque makes cars more fun. My diesel Porsche (580nm) could tear up roads, as can my Abarth (300nm) because they’re super torque-y for their weight. My 325i (270nm) was a lot less fun because it had such low torque for its weight.
1234iamfer@reddit
Because most cars have a gearbox to multiply the torque. Maximum torque is just the number, more interesting is the torque curve, it says something about the character of the motor. But in the end only bhp says something about the performance of the car.
xxtankmasterx@reddit
Because torque and horsepower are directly proportional via rpm (Torque = (horsepower*5252)/RPM). More torque at low RPMs means more horsepower at low RPMs.
elliomitch@reddit
Generally peak HP figure gives a more representative description of the area under the torque curve than the peak torque figure, and peak torque at the wheels can be increased with power with gearing, so peak HP also gives a good general representation of acceleration
Peak torque isn’t the be all and end all either
trd2000gt@reddit
An alfa 4c makes 237 hp There's a Japanese spec of the s2000 that makes 247 hp
The s2000 makes 10 more peak hp but the 4c makes more hp overall.
That Japanese s2000 with 247hp, makes 161 lb-ft of peak tourqe at 7500 rpm
The alfa 4c makes 258 lb-ft of tourqe from 2100-3750 rpm
Let's just be generous and say the s2000 also makes its peak 161 lb-ft of tourqe at 2100rpm all the way to 7500rpm so we can easily compare the numbers
If you use this calculator: https://spicerparts.com/calculators/horsepower-torque-calculator
S2000: 161 lb of tourqe at 2100rpm = 64 hp Alfa 4c: 258 lb of tourqe at 2100rpm =103 hp
S2000: 161 lb of tourqe at 2100rpm = 107 hp Alfa 4c: 258 lb of tourqe at 3500rpm =172 hp
The alfa is making almost double the power of the s2000 at similar rpms.
In reality the s2000 is making even less hp here because the s2000 is making less then 161 lb-ft of tourqe at those number. If you look at a dyno graph you can see how the tourqe builds to its peak. Naturally appreciated enginez dont have flat tourqe curves like electric motors.
Even at 6000rpm, after the tourqe of the 4c has begun to dip, the 4c still has more power than the s2000
4c tq@6000 = 237hp S2000 161lb-ft of tq@6000 = 184hp
We also dont drive at the peak power the cars make, we build up to it and dance/bounce around the numbers. While the car climbs and drops in the rpms.
Tourqe does matter. It's why electric cars are faster than gas cars. Because the electric car get 100% of its tourqe at the beginning while the gas car must build up to it. Even if the peak hp of the gas car is higher the electric car has already put down more hp.
Salekkaan@reddit
Your cars don’t have gearboxes ? Because what actually matters is the power, you can multiply the torque as you wish by gear ratio. The torque your tires feel is a very different amount to the torque at the crankshaft That is why there are gears, and as a driver you are working the gears to stay on the powerband.
trd2000gt@reddit
Yes thats the other part. A high reving car benefits more from a close ratio box.
The lotus elise is considered one of the best drivers car but the NA 2zz without that supercharger has an awkward dip in the tourqe curve and requires skill to keep the gears in the power band. I think it's something like 800rpms to work with or it goes off cam
Its partly what makes the e46 ZHP 6 speed, so great. it felt more "powerful" and was quicker to accelerate due to the shorter gears.
CVTs are supposed to be the superior transmission because you can keep the gears at the engine peak.
JohnFromSpace3@reddit
Its why I like diesel engines so much for daily driving on autobahn. The hp is 320 but the torque is 700 nm. The band is short - between 1500-4500 but slowing from 140 to 80 and back to 140 the torque makes me keep up with a lot more powerful gasoline engined cars. Its Ferrari v12 yorque for 1/5 the price. Of vourse, on a race track you lose as gasoline engines can always stay in rev band but in daily moments you cant, diesel torque is a lot of gun. And 3 times as fuel efficient.
i_hate_budget_tyres@reddit
It isn’t? Was reading a post about a guy who ‘upgraded’ his base Boxster to a GT4. He said he preferred the base Boxster for everyday drivability because the turbo gave it much more low down torque. Said the GT4 only felt quicker if you were really gunning it.
AdorablyDischarged@reddit
I LOVE the idiocy in this thread!
Lots of people need to read some books!
Oberon_17@reddit
Torque disregarded? No, it isn’t. Physics doesn’t disregard anything.
DingChingDonkey@reddit
Torque wins races HP sells cars
gpowerf@reddit
A lot of people automatically dismiss an old undersquare V8 when they see the low horsepower figure, not realising it’s actually the ideal engine for relaxed road driving. The power delivery is buttery smooth, with effortless torque and calm acceleration at low revs. There’s never any sense of strain, just a steady confident pull. This misconception is especially common in Europe where most cars are diminutive hatchbacks. No, a 1.2 litre engine isn’t nicer than a 6 litre V8 just because it makes similar horsepower, the way the power is delivered couldn’t be more different.
Physical-Result7378@reddit
It is? Whenever I talk to car guys it’s always This HP this Torgue, goes like a bunnyrabbit when you stick a jalapeño up it’s ass
Miffed_Pineapple@reddit
Because torque output from the engine is irrelevant. Gearing turns horsepower into torque at the wheels, which uh, makes the car go.
unicyclegamer@reddit
Yea this is something I’ve noticed in the car community. I mainly ride motorcycles and the conversation around torque is so much larger.
j_win@reddit
Marketing
WCland@reddit
There’s a saying, Americans buy horsepower but drive torque.
Over_Pizza_2578@reddit
Torque means more or less nothing. A 300hp 700nm car isn't faster than a 400nm 300hp car since power=torque*rpm. The torque/power curve matters more. Also a high torque engine is usually heavier than a high rpm engine and the transmission l needs to be more robust too, so a low torque high rpm car can be built lighter. If torque was the only thing that matters every car would have a diesel engine. F1 engines got quite shitty torque numbers but since they rev above 12k rpm they still pump out high power numbers
SteevesMike@reddit
It's not
ScaryfatkidGT@reddit
Horsepower is the amount of work that can be done with said tq, you need the rpms for it to make sense.
wpmason@reddit
Horsepower has a sexier name.
tonydaracer@reddit
Because people only care about HP numbers so they can sound cool at cars and coffee.
CalebCaster2@reddit
I can make like 250 ft•lbs of torque on my bicycle. Does that mean my legs would be adequate to tow a trailer, drag race, or (heaven forbid) even merge onto a highway? NOPE. And the reason why is because torque doesnt really matter as much as how many times per minute that torque can be applied. I can pedal at like 100 rpm on my 250ft•lbs bicycle, but my corolla with literally half that with 125ft•lbs can apply it like 7,000 times per minute.
So its not a case of "is speed all that matters", its just that torque by itself tells you very little about what an engine can actually do.
SpeedyHAM79@reddit
Hp and torque are mathmatically related by RPM- so as long as you have good Hp and gear ratio's to take advantage of it the torque (force) applied at the wheel will be good. 10,000 ft-lbs of torque at 10 RPM is only 19Hp, so you wouldn't be able to go fast, but you would get to speed quickly. 300 ft-lbs at 7000 RPM is 400 Hp, So you would be accelerating quickly and have a high top speed.
Mister__Roos@reddit
Horsepower is cool and all, but torque is what wins races.
UpYourAsteroid@reddit
Higher horsepower generally means higher torque if your talking consumer vehicles. It’s just easier to understand, back of the envelope, when talking how fast/powerful cars are.
billp97@reddit
it very much depends on the engine. say in motorcycles a 600cc sport bike has much higher horsepower than a middleweight (typically 600ishcc twin or triple) but generates notably less torque ESPECIALLY at lower RPM. depending on engine displacement, cylinder configuration, fuel type, NA/turbo/supercharge, you can have a vehicle that makes an impressive amount of torque but relatively low hp. its mainly used because the number is impressive and buyers see bigger as better. Tq is relatively irrelevant to the average consumer, its just how well the car pulls (either acceleration or hauling) and the average driver cant tell the difference between a 5, 8, and 10 second 0-60
lellololes@reddit
You think that the average driver can't tell the difference between a 5 and a 10 second 0-60?
10 and 8 is pretty noticeable but not huge. 10 and 5 is night and day.
billp97@reddit
its different, but in real world use its irrelevant. the average car owner isnt doing 0-60 pulls in their 4 cylinder crossover every day to work. and any modern car on the US market is more than powerful enough to merge just fine on any highway in the country. you also rarely if ever do actual 0-60 wide open pulls, and if you are youre just burning up gas, tires, and brakes light to light the entire way to work. its not that it isnt a large felt difference, its that its irrelevant in modern commuting.
UpYourAsteroid@reddit
In general for most consumer stuff, you aren’t making high torque and lower HP unless it’s a truck. Bikes are slightly different but similar concept. If it revs to 5-10k rpm, more torque is just more power. Power is just more commonly discussed and makes more sense in more people’s head
billp97@reddit
yeah valid. it is realistically only enthusiast or duty stuff that strays from that rule of thumb.
but it is still entirely irrelevant to advertise that number to the average consumer aside from "look ours makes bigger number so better" since the average consumer has no idea what hp/tq means and what is a lot/a little
TheWhogg@reddit
Because torque isn’t what people care about. They want torque but also want it low down and also want it to be flat and wide. If peak torque is 1500-4500rpm (as in my car) the top end is feeling more like what people call “power.”
I like the shape of the torque curve of my wife’s diesel but the reality is my screaming tt V8 has way more torque.
ExternalTree1949@reddit
Maximum torque as such is effectively irrelevant for performance, but high maximum torque is an indication of sufficient power being available also at low engine speed.
kheq@reddit
HP isn't real... it's a derivative of torque.
Bromatoast@reddit
Idk but it blows my mind my little crossover has 320 pound feet of it.
Almost everything in its class is at like 150-180 lol
TacohTuesday@reddit
Drive an EV and the value of torque will quickly become apparent.
El_Pozzinator@reddit
Horsepower is torque over time, while torque is just work. Sure two engines might be capable of the same amount of work, but if it takes one engine twice as much time to accomplish that work, which engine is more useful to you? So diesels, it generally matters pure and simple how much work they can do. Because once the load is moving, it takes relatively very little to keep it moving (Newton’s laws). But drag cars need to do all the work VERY quickly; they need to get the load moving and continue accelerating that load consistently for the entirety of a race. So, the amount of work they CAN do is relatively immaterial, but how quickly they can do that all the work they’re capable of doing is critically important.
Insertsociallife@reddit
Many people do not adequately understand the relationship of torque and horsepower in an engine.
Horsepower is a unit of power (like how miles is to distance), and it tells you how much work an engine can do in a certain amount of time.
Torque is a twisting force applied by the engine. Practically, what this means is the amount of work the engine can do per revolution of the engine.
Now, if you know how much the engine can do per revolution, and know how many revolutions it does per minute, you can work out how much the engine can do per minute, which is a unit of power. This is why power = torque x rpm.
Humans don't really care how many revolutions of the engine it takes to do enough work to accelerate a car to 60 for example, or to climb a hill. We DO care about the time it takes.
Syscrush@reddit
You started out strong, but this is completely wrong.
Insertsociallife@reddit
Care to explain? 1 lbft of torque applied over 1 revolution will do 2pi ftlb of work. Therefore, work per revolution.
Syscrush@reddit
You're 100% right.
tqhp1@reddit
The amount of misinformation and unclear answers in this thread is depressing. I have lost count of the number of times I have tried to explain this topic to people, but I would love to try again.
The reason that we care about horsepower is that gears in the transmission multiply torque from the engine to the wheel, and torque at the wheel combined with tire diameter gives you the actual force accelerating the car. If you twist the wheel harder, the car will accelerate faster. So, say you have a car with a perfectly flat torque curve. It makes the same torque no matter what rpm. You want to accelerate as fast as possible so you put it in the shortest gear for the most torque multiplication. But eventually you reach redline so you have to shift to a taller gear that has less torque multiplication. For this theoretical engine, the acceleration would be constant until you shift to second gear where it would drop to a lower but also constant acceleration. Now let’s say we had a second engine. It makes the exact same torque as the first engine but the redline is twice as high. So it can stay in first gear longer. This would also be true at higher speeds. Engine two could always be geared shorter than engine one at the same speed. This equates to higher acceleration due to torque multiplication of the shorter gearing. This ability to produce toque while spinner faster is the reason engine two has more peak horsepower than engine one. The engine can be geared shorter at the same speed but still produce the same torque. Both engines would have the exact same horsepower curve up to the redline of engine one, but engine two would keep going up as rpms increased.
There is more nuance to it than that, but the short version is that horsepower measure an engine’s ability to produce actual torque at the wheels after gearing torque multiplication while the torque curve is useful for understanding acceleration throughout the rpm range in a single fixed gear.
When most people say a car has torque, what they mean is that it has higher torque at low rpm. When most people say a car makes good power or top end what they mean is that the car has higher torque at high rpm and the engine can spin fast.
the-montser@reddit
You going to explain?
OkEgg2582@reddit
In the real world that twisting force. I set my comfort setting to give me a good feel for the road and with a 70 % of steering inputs from the road. Tried that in sport and the torque had 0 lag but it tried to twist the steering wheel out of my hands. Turned it down to 40%.
Alert_Reindeer_6574@reddit
My username on the Corvette Forum is TorqueWinsRaces. It's from an old saying- Horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races.
SunRev@reddit
Why? Because it's super easy to triple the torque to the car's wheels with a normal gearbox that most cars already have. It's much much harder to triple a car's power to the wheels.
SunRev@reddit
Why? Because it's super easy to triple the torque to the car's wheels with a normal gearbox that most cars already have. It's much much harder to triple or quadruple a car's power to the wheels.
SunRev@reddit
Why? Because it's super easy to triple or quadruple the torque with a normal gearbox that most cars already have. It's much much harder to triple or quadruple a car's engine power.
neomoritate@reddit
HP is, in the case of cars whose power people are talking about, usually the bigger number.
Importance of TQ vs HP depends on use. I drive a 2002 Porsche 911, on the street only. For me, the peak HP is of little value because it comes at 6,500 RPM, while the TQ (above 200 ft/lb from 2,000-6,700 RPM) is accessible to me during almost all the driving I do.
Hot_Lava_Dry_Rips@reddit
Because torque by itself is a meaningless metric. I need to know torque applied over time, which is hp, so I know how fast my car can go. I dont care if my car has 400 ft lbs of torque if its only 100hp. Itll still be slow as shit. However, if my car has 400 hp but like 100 ft lb of torque it'll be fast with the correct gearing. Thats what anyone ever cares about.
crikett23@reddit
>wouldnt for the average persons needs a vehicle with low hp and high torque be much more useful and practical then high hp and low toque?
Only if the average person is a trucker... the vehicle you just described is a truck used for hauling heavy loads at low speeds.
Slight_Cauliflower44@reddit
Horsepower determines how fast you're going when you hit the wall and torque is how far you move the wall
rns96@reddit
You’re correct but normal civilian drivers don’t know that
roadbikemadman@reddit
Because news reports tell how fast the car hit the crowd (hp), not how far it dragged the bodies (torque).
rufusalaya@reddit
Lukewarm.
D-Laz@reddit
Torque is the amount of work it can do, HP is how fast it can do it.
You only need high torque if you are moving heavy objects that is going to take a lot of force to get going.
So for the average person in the average car, torque is irrelevant
rns96@reddit
HP sells cars
Engine_Sweet@reddit
Torque wins races
TROGDOR_X69@reddit
i love tq
my sti on e85 is a torq monster
makes about 400whp but 525wtq
itsjakerobb@reddit
The torque curve is the only data you really need.
Unless turbo, because then the torque curve varies depending on more than just RPM.
largos7289@reddit
HP is work that can be done torque is how it's applied.
logdog421@reddit
Because most people haven’t driven a modern (or honestly not modern) turbo diesel
Certain-Forever-1474@reddit
Because most people don’t understand it, which makes it a bad selling point. They kinda know that horse power means speed or acceleration, so this is easier to market.
Exotic-Experience965@reddit
Horsepower is a more intrinsic property of an engine I guess. You can gear it to whatever torque you want; at the end of the day the horsepower is the currency you’re working with for a given engine.
mrbigpower1960@reddit
Torque gets you moving and horsepower keeps you moving.
SecretOrganization60@reddit
Horsepower wins sales, torque wins races
bigcee42@reddit
Yeah bullshit.
Torque can be multiplied with a longer lever (lower gearing), but power is actual work done.
Autobacs-NSX@reddit
That’s a Carroll Shelby quote and he was probably talking about v8 endurance race cars from the 60s that could win a race at a comfortable (and reliable) 5k rpm. In opposition to Ferrari probably who’s v12 was half the displacement
MisterCircumstance@reddit
Legend has Carrol Shelby stating "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races"
Solid_Enthusiasm550@reddit
Because nowadays most cars are small displacement 4 or 6 cylinders and their "torque rating" isn't impressive. I only hear commercials mention torque when talking about trucks or turbocharged cars.
Like the other redditor said, hp is just a calculation of torque over time. ALL motors only make torque. If you make torque at a higher rpm or carry the torque to a higher rpm...you increase hp.
Archibaldie@reddit
Not entirely acccurate, the German PS (Pferdestärke, literally "horsepower") differs from American HP by about 2%. This where "metric HP" comes from.
And for older (1971 or older) cars there's also the issue of SAE gross vs DIN horsepower, where Europe and the US used to measure power in cars very differently, leading to different power figures for the same engine in the same car.
dissss0@reddit
I'd say it's actually the opposite - modern turbo fours and sixes make a lot of torque across their entire rev range.
Solid_Enthusiasm550@reddit
I was referring to n/a.
dissss0@reddit
Turbos are common now though, even in non performance vehicles. Just look at the available drivetrain options in an F-150 or Silverado.
BarnyardCoral@reddit
Is it?
NuclearHateLizard@reddit
Horsepower is really a buzzword. It was made up because the average layman couldn't wrap their head around the word torque, and how much more work more torque could do. "horsepower" introduced a kind of example, as in the days that cars started to take over everyone know how useful a horse was, how much it could haul, etc
wooble@reddit
Horsepower was invented by James Watt, who died more than 60 years before there was a car.
NuclearHateLizard@reddit
Oh interesting. Im pretty sure it was invented to sell a product but could be wrong! Any further info as to why?
yugami@reddit
steam engines which was replacing horses as the driving force on cranks for mining and other industry
NuclearHateLizard@reddit
Steam engines that makes sense, i was off by many decades 😅
wooble@reddit
It's actually a kind of weird unit to apply to transportation. 1 HP is the amount of power a horse used in industry averages over a full work day, but the values given for car engines are peak power generation. A horse at its peak can actually generate about 25 HP if you're motivating it to get your wagon moving.
Although obviously your engine can keep up that power for a lot longer without falling over dead.
Which_Accountant_736@reddit
Because torque is one part of horsepower. Why bother with the components if the outcome is better anyways. (Obviously not 100% but general concept.)
ThirdSunRising@reddit
What you do is prosecute them for trying to arrange paid sex with a minor, namely, you
hatred-shapped@reddit
It doesn't have the word power in it. It's also why we don't use kilowatts.
PageRoutine8552@reddit
The quoted torque figure is the maximum torque, which is generated at the point of a certain rpm with max throttle.
Torque can be leveraged via gear ratios, so if you need more torque, the solution is going into a lower gear (higher gear ratio).
What people really care about is the power curve. Race engines have all the torque in the high rpm range, turbo engines can put out most of the torque at 2000 rpm or less.
Reejerey1@reddit
Simple answer, gears.
Rattlingplates@reddit
It’s a good read. Torque is for commercial basically.
Whole-Scene-689@reddit
I had a non car guy friend ask me if I bought my car because of its top speed. Like, the average person doesn't not really understand anything except one number bigger better than other number smaller, and torque is a little more complicated to understand
No_South_9912@reddit
Where the torque is in the RPM range is more important than the peak torque number.
Ananasiegenjuice_@reddit
If you want to go fast or win races, its hp that you need. And people like the idea of winning the race in their head when cruising to Dunkin Donuts on their Panigale.
Mimcclure@reddit
The equation for Horsepower is Torque●RPM/5252. The number they state is usually coupled with an rpm and is a peak output.
The shape of the power curve does matter for drivability and performance, however that is beyond most people. Modern engines have ways of improving it, but it is still a game of optimization and trade offs for certain goals.
Tuques@reddit
Because modern drivers dont know fuck all about the vehicles they drive and dont care about the details. It just gets them from. Point a to point b and that's all they care about (which is a ridiculous notion imo)