FAA grounds all MD-11s with emergency AD
Posted by ResponsibilityOld164@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 113 comments
Of course UPS and FedEx have grounded theirs, but this will probably hurt for WGA (most of their fleet is MD-11s).
Read the AD below- https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/2025-23-51_Emergency.pdf?fbclid=IwVERDUAN8qtpleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEexKHtLBvBbZPYoMkzXzoRa4LVEpVlQudRYlOgatmzUE7PeeA2VqpDu9RSgnQ_aem_zy4xiLb2NTYgYlWlDDWLsA
No-Series-3997@reddit
I wonder if this is finally what shoves WGA into the grave.
Same for the MD-11 as a whole honestly. There's very little incentive to get them going again in a hurry, this isn't the 737MAX where it's ostensibly a modernization/improvement that benefits the manufacturer greatly. Boeing doesn't give a shit about it and the few operators that still use it could spin up replacements if necessary.
lordtema@reddit
Isn't the primary issue that there's just not enough replacement airframes around? I thought the issue was that because the 777X program is so delayed and same for the A350F meant that the retirement was pushed out to 2030s
No-Series-3997@reddit
Almost certainly.
Every airline is running into this. My employer won't get rid of the 717 because the A220 and 73M7 are both having trouble existing.
NeutralBias@reddit
Yep, and mine is kinda stuck with it since there’s literally nothing else that can handle the interisland mission like the 717.
Frosty_Piece7098@reddit
I always thought the Q would fit that role well. I hate riding in the Q tho so I’m not sad it’s gone.
NeutralBias@reddit
Its a question of capacity and dispatch reliability. Regional jets, even the E190, cant hold the same number of pax the 717 holds. We do frequently fill them, especially during the mid-day rush hour.
Also we have a lot of large checked bags like longboards, bikes, etc that can have issues in RJs.
Bottom line is we need a mainline size plane built for regional work, which just doesn’t exist anymore.
Bot_Marvin@reddit
The E-195 has a greater seating capacity than the 717.
NeutralBias@reddit
We looked at the E2s a few years ago and ultimately decided against it. Not really sure why. The reasoning i gave is the common wisdom in the rumor pool. Who knows whats actually holding things up at the corporate level - especially since that’s now AS management.
No-Series-3997@reddit
I always wondered, do you guys go to ATL and use our sims for training or do you have your own 717 box? Seems like one of those types that doesn't hardly warrant two separate training centers anymore.
NeutralBias@reddit
Sometimes we contract out to Atlanta or Brisbane, but mostly we use our own sim here in HNL.
V1_cut@reddit
Tell me you fly for DL without telling me you fly for DL…
vq35__rano@reddit
Very triangular and very red, flies a Boeing airplane built in Long Beach, a weird ass 767, and some very modern stuff.
They also really like Georgia for some reason
Rainebowraine123@reddit
Delta doesnt have any MAX 7s on order though. I mean, theres obviously no other option because Hawaiin has neither on order.
avgaskoolaid@reddit
They could mean the MAX 10, which Delta has ordered 100 of and is in the same certification hell as the MAX 7.
cosmictap@reddit
For the love of god, it's "tell me without saying" .. please just give me this one thing. Thank you
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit (OP)
lmao my first thought
No-Series-3997@reddit
"I don't know what MSP or LAX are but they sound epic" -DL management, November 2025 AE
MeatServo1@reddit
I can’t believe DAL flies that airplane still. The sim looked like a ww2 cargo/bomber cockpit.
sunfishtommy@reddit
The 717 cockpit is glass, and is actually pretty modern in many ways more modern than a 737 NG. You may be thinking md-80 which was round dial.
MeatServo1@reddit
Yep. That’s it.
ItalianFlyer@reddit
The main problem is anything that carries the same amount of cargo has Group V wingspan, while the MD-11 is Group IV. That means they effectively lose quite a few parking stands at the hubs since some will need to be re-pitched for the larger wingspan. The 767 is still group IV but has quite a bit less capacity
No-Series-3997@reddit
TIL the MD11 is Group IV. I've never really seen one next to a 777/747 so I hadn't compared the two. But yeah that's a big annoying problem.
Funny enough the 717 also has an ADG related advantage. It's Group III, but the tiny little stub wings are like 20' short of the Group III threshold. So we get to use all the 737/320 taxiways and have a ridiculous amount of room everywhere we go which is nice.
hitchhiketoantarctic@reddit
That the 767 has less capacity is an understatement. It’s half of an MD11, at best. At least, unless you only want to do 4 hour segments.
But want to cross an ocean? The 767 is roughly half the capacity of an MD11 (or DC-10 for that matter).
Next_Juggernaut_898@reddit
Damn. They only had 4 md11's active. 11 were in storage.
They cooked fam
DSer69420@reddit
At least 5 of them have been siting on the ground with no engines in them for the last 2 years
PermanentRoundFile@reddit
Hmm.. I wonder which will be cheaper, a 2br 2ba house, or an MD-11.
Cuz that's some square footage lol I will happily take it!
vq35__rano@reddit
I'd buy one, go into a shit ton of debt, and start a one-aircraft cargo airline.
Terrible business idea but it would be crazy fun.
PermanentRoundFile@reddit
There is always a chance this is like that one accident where the maintenance crew eschewed the recommended engine dismounting procedures and cracked part of the mount which lead the engine to fall off shortly thereafter. Then you just have to do an inspection and you've got a flight worthy airframe!
Ok_Witness179@reddit
I don't think my HOA has any rules about this, hang on a minute!
brucebrowde@reddit
Change "Hmm.." to "Honey!" and it takes an interesting turn.
PermanentRoundFile@reddit
This is easily a conversation between my wife and I lol
I would sell it as a cheap way to get her emu ranch lol
UnreasoningOptimism@reddit
While I don't disagree that the MD-11 is due to be put out to pasture, I don't think losing 7-8% capacity would be trivial.
Mazer1415@reddit
The whole industry is losing 10% starting Monday. Even after losing all -11s they’ll still need to trim.
vq35__rano@reddit
Not trivial but they would be fine, it's definitely survivable. Not to mention they have a rainy day fund and rainy day plans for just about everything. Or at least I'd imagine, I'm not too well versed in cargo management stuff
superspeck@reddit
It’s even less trivial if the problem is in the CF6-80.
No-Series-3997@reddit
It wouldn't be trivial, but the scale likely wouldn't be as devastating, financially or operationally, as the MAX debacle.
Isn't FedEx running everyone on reduced credit lines anyway? Genuine question as I'm not a cargo guy.
LuklaAdvocate@reddit
Not anymore. FedEx and ALPA came to agreement to return to normal credit hours.
The problem is that the MD-11 has more range and payload capacity than the 767, and still plays an integral part on the international side. I doubt FedEx has enough 777’s to fully compensate for the loss of lift on the MD.
JPAV8R@reddit
Using percentages here isn’t really the correct way to calculate impact. The real way would be to calculate how much cargo carrying capacity of UPS and FedEx that represents.
For instance, if UPS grounded 27 of their 747-8F’s their capacity would be far greater impacted than if they grounded 27 MD’s despite 27 aircraft being the same representative % of the fleet.
No-Series-3997@reddit
Yeah I was basically doing the laziest math possible. I'm sure the actual impact differs based on a variety of things I'm either not privy to or don't care enough to calculate.
Point being it's bad, but not necessarily catastrophic.
vq35__rano@reddit
Ouch. Very unfortunate for all involved.
Besides, some of these airplanes are 35+. They're older than me ffs, I remember seeing them as a little kid planespotting.
Environmental_Log792@reddit
No, they’re only flying 3-4 of them and they barely have the staff to run 2.5 of them. Like a roach in a nuclear wasteland, they’re not going to die
PlaneShenaniganz@reddit
Exactly why it will get going again in a hurry, lol
Airbusa3@reddit
Where’s that dude that was asking if WGA is a good place to work yesterday lol?????
barcode-username@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/AirlinePilots/s/pZ8MyBJNWQ
In case anyone else wants to see the thread.
Airbusa3@reddit
Thank You!!!
TobyADev@reddit
Imo in events like this airlines who rely on these acft should be compensated by the authority imposing restrictions
But then it’s not as if they can say “ah you rely on it, fuck safety, go”
Approaching_Dick@reddit
Can anyone explain what actually needs to be done? Is it wait an see what the NTSB uncovers or can just start inspecting the engine pylons and start flying again as soon as that’s done?
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
They aren’t doing this grounding because of pylons. Engines are supposed to separate if the forces are great enough. They’re supposed to cleanly detach before they damage the structural integrity of the wing.
This should be about how the tail engine is right in the debris field on rotation, and how there’s no way at all to mitigate that.
the_kerbal_side@reddit
Um, I'm pretty sure engines aren't supposed to fly off in normal operation.
You're talking about provisions for clean separation following an overstress, for example, in severe turbulence.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
Who said this was normal? There was obviously a catastrophic uncontained engine failure. Yes they ARE supposed to come off before they damage the wing structure. The engine mount is designed to be the weakest structure.
No, turbulence is not one of those instances. You’re making stuff up. It’s for massive explosions that can impart insane torque loads on the engine mounts, uncontained fires that will eventually melt the wing off, or belly-up landings. Not turbulence.
jimutc12@reddit
Correct. The inboard wing airflow after Vr was directed to engine 2, because of the low speed and high vacuum of a full power engine (they were near stall having not fully accelerated). At the very beginning of the video, for a split second, there are two areas of fire… Below the wing and above the wing. As the nose gets risen another 5°, the lower fire appears to “go out.” it actually just got directed above the wing as the inborn wing stalled. It was not a salvageable situation.
na85@reddit
Is the intake really low enough that it's ingesting fod in that scenario? Is that what we're speculating happened to the UPS aircraft?
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
It is on rotation.
And with an engine failure, that rotation is gonna take noticeably longer. More time to
mnp@reddit
Good explanation. This all makes a lot more sense now
Bunslow@reddit
The AD basically says "we still don't know why but we're grounding it anyways until we do know".
When they figure it out, they'll come up with "return to flight" corrective actions
Dave_A480@reddit
They will amend the AD once a corrective action is identified
cwebster2@reddit
There's no corrective action so it's hurry up and wait till the NTSB tells the FAA what to look for and how to fix it.
MyPilotInterview@reddit
And that could be months away - it may not be an inspection, it may require an engineered replacement.
Elios000@reddit
i get the feeling this is the end for the MD-11
GSTBD@reddit
I completely agree and made the point 2 days ago to a barrage of downvotes.
If there is a design flaw in the pylon it is too late in the aircraft’s life cycle to economically fix the problem. The aircraft will just be retired.
Even if this accident was not a design fault but a maintenance error, the fact that severe damage/separation to the #1 engine led to the immediate loss of #2 engine is not acceptable. There is no remedy to that problem.
Either way for such a small global fleet of such an old design I do not see an economic argument to keep it flying if it really is inherently unsafe.
Elios000@reddit
yeah in either case its just not worth fixing from Boeings view. if i was Boeing id be giving any one still fly these things deal to trade them for 777's on the cheap. and just retire the MD-11 fleet
Background_Tax556@reddit
Boeing can’t afford to be giving anything away on the cheap…
Cautious-Box-8759@reddit
Why not the MD-10 / DC-10 as well?
PlaneShenaniganz@reddit
FDX retired the MD-10 a few years ago.
DC-10 is a completely different type certificate.
pleasehurtdoll@reddit
No, there's not a "completely different type certificate" for the DC-10 versus MD-11.
FAA type certificate A22WE covers both the DC-10, and MD-11 and lists the models included as:
DC-10-10
DC-10-40
DC-10-30
DC-10-30F (KC-10A, KDC-10)
DC-10-10F
DC-10-40F
DC-10-15
MD-11
MD-11F
MD-10-10F
MD-10-30F
ADs are only issued for affected models remaining on the active US registry. So for example, looking at the last regular AD in the database for this type, it listed 79 registered MD-11 /11Fs as the only impacted airframes on this TC still active on the registry
Full_Wind_1966@reddit
Are there any still in use in the us?
txoa@reddit
There's so many badass videos of Tanker 910 it's hard to pick just one.
https://youtube.com/shorts/twZjzhMNiLU?si=VmzW-7DhQJSaSnEA
FyreWulff@reddit
Some slew mode shit going on there
vq35__rano@reddit
I saw that guy fly over my house in Cali long before I ever had my first flight.
One of my best catches as a diehard avgeek kid.
Cautious-Box-8759@reddit
IIRC Fed-Ex has a sub fleet of DC-10s that they upgraded to MD11 style glass, 2 person cockpits. They’re called MD-10s. This AD doesn’t appear to apply to them
PWJT8D@reddit
Those are all gone.
fejman_34@reddit
Except for Orbis
PWJT8D@reddit
Never change, reddit, never change.
Literally not related to what is being discussed.
XxVcVxX@reddit
Those were all retired a while ago.
quietflyr@reddit
There are some in firefighting service, aerial refuelling, and a flying hospital.
dstan1856@reddit
Not sure why this was downvoted, it's a legit question. FedEx hasn't flown their converted DC-10s for a few years.
Vincent-the-great@reddit
I have a strong feeling this is the final blow for the airframe and the absolute end of the transport category trijets.
Cautious-Box-8759@reddit
What are they supposed to inspect?
Thequiet01@reddit
They haven't decided yet.
quietflyr@reddit
Right now it's just a grounding. There is no corrective action.
Big_OOOO@reddit
Does Boeing even have an incentive to help fix this? Doesn’t it help them to make the MD-11 go away?
Garbagefailkids@reddit
Seems like maybe UPS and FedEx may use (or even have advocated for) this AD in order to be able to use it as some kind of force majure issue that they could then use in insurance claims or to ask for govt loans against newer, more efficient aircraft. Maybe. Just an idea.
No-Series-3997@reddit
Yeah because if there's one thing our federal government is currently good at doing it's randomly handing out money
pooserboy@reddit
I’ve heard enough send 5 billion more dollars to Israel
BrtFrkwr@reddit
That was an accident that was supposed to be survivable. We'll have to wait and see what happened, but an MD-11 should be able to continue the takeoff and climb our with an engine inoperative.
infowhiskey@reddit
I think after the lost #1, #3 had a compressor stall. Horribly bad luck if true.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
There's some some speculation that the engine failure was so catastrophic that #2 may have ingested some shrapnel. We'll have to wait.
aviatorict@reddit
I think there’s a lot of confusion with the engine numbering going on, but I think general consensus is left engine obviously fell off and did catastrophic damage to the left wing in the process, middle engine ingested debris and was compressor stalling at best, failed at worst, and right engine was likely operating
infowhiskey@reddit
There's a video out there from behind the plane and it shows the fire flashing in the exhaust of #3, that's why I was speculating on a compressor stall.
pilot3033@reddit
The tail engine is the #2 engine.
infowhiskey@reddit
I know. I'm talking #3 on the right wing. There's video footage of it.
annodomini@reddit
Can you link to it?
sparklyboi2015@reddit
Which engine are you picturing to be engine 3 though? Because 1 fell off, 2(the middle engine) is suspected to be stalling, and 3 on the right wing so my knowledge has no evidence of failure. I could just not be seeing the same resources as you, but you may also just have your engine numbers messed up.
infowhiskey@reddit
No. I'm talking engine #3 on the right wing. There's video footage of it.
Mobilize-Stay-Alive@reddit
I've seen theories it could have been 3 as well
RunwayBehindUs@reddit
The problem is that two engines appear to have failed - not just one.
The left engine fell off and appeared to cause enough damage that it caused the #2 (tail engine), to have a compressor stall/surge.
The extent of that damage is still undetermined - but you can see fireballs out of the tail engine in the video of it rotating.
It cant survive a dual engine failure on takeoff at that moment...
barcode-username@reddit
Think it depends on how much damage was caused by the engine detaching, which we don't know yet.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
Engines basically have breakaway mounts. If they become so unbalanced as to hurt the airframe the attachments break and the engine drops. We have a checklist for that in the Boeing. I would thing the MD has something similar. There was a lot of fire before becoming airborne, which would indicate a wing fuel tank rupture. That engine may have come apart like a bomb.
perplexedtortoise@reddit
The shear pins in the mounts only breakaway as-designed if the pylon and wing structure are also both working as-designed, though.
AA191 had cracks in its aft pylon bulkhead that made the “clean separating” nature of the pylon mount irrelevant. Not saying that’s what happened here but the engine-pylon separation looks eerily similar
nkydeerguy@reddit
Yes an md-11 should be able to take off and climb after losing thrust in one engine. Taking off with a large fireball for a left wing after the engine jettison. That’s a different story.
They had just rotated and barely climbed any. That’s a very fragile place to be in that phase of flight. We also don’t know their calculated performance either.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
The minimum engine-out climb gradient for a 3 engine airplane is 2.7%. They don't plan for 2 engines out. God help 'em.
__joel_t@reddit
We don't know if only one engine was inoperative. As you said, we'll have to wait and see, so no reason to make pronouncements like, "That was an accident that was supposed to be survivable."
centexAwesome@reddit
I guess I will be watching some blancolirio tonight.
superspeck@reddit
I haven’t looked today, but update 3 implicated the engine…
weech@reddit
lol
SaltyHooker69@reddit
I’m guessing that jawn exploded and when it did it blew those hydraulic lines smoove off which could’ve resulted in total hydraulic failure. This could’ve in turn caused sub sequential flight control failure which would explain why the aircraft failed to maneuver after #1 engine failure. Further, if the engine throttle/fuel controls were hydraulically actuated the two operable engines could’ve been locked into a power setting(I know nothing about MD-11’s)
7w4773r@reddit
The last sentence says it all
TwoEightRight@reddit
I don't know, I think the last five sum it up very well also.
GsoFly@reddit
"This AD prohibits further flight until the airplane is inspected and all applicable corrective
actions are performed using a method approved by the Manager, AIR-520, Continued Operational
Safety Branch, FAA."
So pretty much to force everyone to inspect all engine pylons and report?
senorpoop@reddit
The "method approved by the Manager" isn't defined yet. This is a placeholder to ground the airplanes until they can figure out what happened, why and how to prevent it.
barcode-username@reddit
I was wondering if Western Global was going to ground their MD-11s after FedEx and UPS did. Guess they have no choice now.
ResponsibilityOld164@reddit (OP)
Def not. Almost all of their fleet is MD-11s and they were barely hanging on as it was. This very well could kill WGA
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Of course UPS and FedEx have grounded theirs, but this will probably hurt for WGA (most of their fleet is MD-11s).
Read the AD below- https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/2025-23-51_Emergency.pdf?fbclid=IwVERDUAN8qtpleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZAo2NjI4NTY4Mzc5AAEexKHtLBvBbZPYoMkzXzoRa4LVEpVlQudRYlOgatmzUE7PeeA2VqpDu9RSgnQ_aem_zy4xiLb2NTYgYlWlDDWLsA
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