Why are Brits so forgiving of tax dodgers?
Posted by St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit | AskABrit | View on Reddit | 390 comments
I asked about whether people on this sub knew people abusing the tax system after seeing people here being asked about their knowledge of benefit fraud.
There were a fair number of posts saying that people had to dodge tax in order to keep their businesses going, with the sense that this was a good thing rather than defrauding the rest of us.
Is tax dodging a good thing when it keeps a business going or is it a drag on British society fettering important skills to poorly run businesses?
Is it just that the media doesn’t want us to think about tax dodgers because they and their friends might come under scrutiny too?
DeCyantist@reddit
Because people cannot consent to taxes, so anything they do to defend themselves from taxes is considered self-defense.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
You vote for people who will reduce public services enough to get rid of taxes.
DeCyantist@reddit
I move to a tax free country on earnings. Useless to try to vote for no income tax.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
True, how are you finding Shari’a law?
DeCyantist@reddit
It has not changed anything for me, personally. You are mixing the muslim that are in the UK with the Emirati. Very different mentalities.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Glad you are comfortable there. It’s strange how people in Britain are scared of Sharia law but have no problems with it when they actually live under it. 🙂
DeCyantist@reddit
Because the muslim in Europe behave completely different from the ones in the Gulf states. Even gulf states leadership have made remarks about the mistakes of Europe in that sense.
SnooCompliments6843@reddit
I think that maybe part of it is that we know that massive business like Amazon, Starbucks etc as well as very wealthy people including people in government do things to avoid paying tax. These things are known about and people in power to change it do nothing (or so it seems). So the idea of a ‘normal’ person saving themselves an extra couple of hundred is comparatively unimportant against the hundreds of thousands kept away by those who can afford to pay it.
OtherwiseProduce8507@reddit
I really think the growing national debt and the public finance crisis stems from the inability of national governments to effectively tax global businesses. You could tax local greengrocers and butchers but you can’t really do that with modern supermarket chains, or the likes of Amazon and Google. Unfortunately most UK commerce is done through the latter.
So we have ever higher tax on the population (at all levels) to compensate for the shortfall.
I think that makes people think (perhaps rightly) that we are all taxed unfairly, and it makes us less critical of people who dodge taxes in a relatively modest way - with a bit of cash-in-hand work (say).
I’d have thought the answer woukd be to impose much higher VAT / sales tax, but make lower earners / public sector employees exempt from it to varying and calculated degrees. That way the money is taken from the businesses at source, and people who consume less pay less.
SnooCompliments6843@reddit
I wonder what would happen if the government told the likes of Amazon that they could no longer trade in the UK if they didn’t pay proper (or at least closer to proper) taxes. Would they willingly drop a large amount of income they generate? I’ve wondered the same with Starbucks. If we tell them pay up or stop trading, then they stopped trading here, could government help smaller UK businesses to use their ready made set ups to begin trading? I’m sure it’s not that simple, I’m no economist/politicain.
SisterSabathiel@reddit
Then Amazon, Google etc would start funding propaganda against the government trying to enforce these taxes and begin funding right wing extreme parties who promise not to make them pay.
Southernbeekeeper@reddit
The public can enforce this though. People say that working class voters voting conservative are slugs voting for salt but no one says they same about continuing to shop at amazon.
There was a really good radio 4 show in the run up to brexit about how the UK will look if we vote to leave. One of the big takeaways is that as consumers we could have just supported British industry.
If people have a problem with tax avoidance they should act on it with their wallets.
jake_burger@reddit
When it comes to choosing which businesses to support suddenly no one cares about the things they care about anymore. They want their crap and they want it cheap and next day delivery.
gnufan@reddit
Also hard to know which businesses to support, when you dig into it you find dodgy tax avoidance is ubiquitous, so people end up buying what is cheapest and most convenient. Ultimately it is HMRCs job to enforce tax law.
SterlingVoid@reddit
Plenty of people say the same about shopping at places like Amazon and don't buy a anything from them by choice
Hot_College_6538@reddit
I don’t want to defend Amazons actions, however the do pay most UK taxes. They collect VAT, their employees pay income tax and NI, digital services tax.
What they do reportedly do is hide their profits to reduce corporation tax.
If you closed them down we would lose vast amounts of taxes.
A war against Luxembourg and all the other tax havens unless they standardise tax would be better, we will only need to destroy a few of them before the rest get the message. Would destroying IoM be a bad thing anyway?
squishy_orchestra@reddit
Of course they pay UK taxes (ER NI, VAT, probably BIK etc) but the assumption you're making is that if Amazon didn't exist today then those people wouldn't have a job elsewhere, having the exact same amount of tax collected. Please also don't conflate the collection of taxes (EE NI and PAYE) with being deducted taxes, since it's the employees that pay the aforementioned through deduction.
We absolutely should tax the profit they make which is moved to Luxembourg. I would recommend a tax levied on intra-group/company charges, and a Section 455 style tax on intercompany loans, where the loaning company is situated outside of the UK.
ZekkPacus@reddit
This is supply side economics and it's not how it works.
Amazon operates in the UK to fulfil a demand. If they decide not to operate in the UK because the tax burden is too onerous, that demand will still exist and someone will arise to fulfil it.
peareauxThoughts@reddit
Probably operating at higher margins and with a worse service. Otherwise they’d be outcompeting Amazon now.
Following a nuclear apocalypse, the demand for food will still be there, but the supply that arises to fill it (dead rats) doesn’t mean people are just as well off as before.
milgi617@reddit
BVI we could roll up and it would write of the national debt.
SnooCompliments6843@reddit
IoM? Isle of Man? I used to work with a few bikers who’d be upset
ablativeyoyo@reddit
They'd increase their prices to make up for the increased cost of doing business
marvellcg@reddit
The most effective way would be to tax businesses on their turnover, rather than their profit. This would then stop businesses like Starbucks from limiting their profits by buying goods and services from other arms of the business based overseas.
It would be more inline with the way people are taxed on their salaries, I pay tax based on my income, not on how much I have left at the end of the year.
The tax rate would obviously be a lot lower than the current tax rate charged on profits as you'd be taxing a much larger base.
The issues I can see are that it could discourage setting up new businesses as currently most of those don't pay tax in their first few years as they don't make a profit. You could probably include some exceptions for small businesses in their first few years of operation.
You'd also need to include some exemptions for investment as the current profit based tax theoretically encourages companies to invest rather than sit in large profits.
Finally there would likely be some companies that would go bust because of this, they have a bad year and still generate large revenues but don't generate a profit. Under this tax they'd still have a tax bill to pay. I don't think there's a way round this and we'd just have to accept it as part of the cost of a fairer system that would see multinationals taxed more effectively.
Super-Hyena8609@reddit
Perhaps we could tax businesses on turnover but only above a certain (very high) threshold? So the multinationals couldn't avoid the tax but it wouldn't affect smaller companies, who would continue to be taxed on profit only.
peareauxThoughts@reddit
Disincentivising businesses from growing is a wild and ridiculous idea.
marvellcg@reddit
Incentivising businesses from making as little profit as possible is also a wild and ridiculous idea.
peareauxThoughts@reddit
Yes that’s bad. But it’s still worth it to make a profit. While I’m being taxed 40% on my income I still gain from increasing my income (just about worth it).
Your plan would destroy any high turnover low margin business, like I don’t know, the whole retail and hospitality sector. So if you want people to be able to afford food and clothes then I suggest you rethink.
marvellcg@reddit
Starbucks are in the hospitality sector and they are one of the business this would be trying to make pay a fair rate.
One of the reasons so many hospitality businesses are low margin is because of rents. A lease that allows hospitality use can command a premium of 30 to 40 percent over the same lease with just retail use. If these businesses became less viable then this premium would disappear.
Another reason why many hospitality and retail businesses struggle is because they are out competed by multi national competitors who off shore their profits due to the current regime.
I also think you are over estimating the impact, because you are taxing a percentage of a much larger number the rate would be much lower. A tax of around 2.5% on revenue would bring in around the same amount as the current tax rates of 19% to 25% on profit.
Again what is your solution, or are you saying you think the current system works? Because I don't think the majority agree with you.
Think_Ad6364@reddit
Ive been abroad to Germany and Italy and other places and i like it when they don't have the American franchises.
Bologna was every 5 shops were the same. Barber, grocery, glasses, cafe, shop.
We should be able to say all shopping done within the UK from the likes of Amazon and Starbucks should pay their tax bill instead of doing some evading.
I have same issues with local supermarket here, instead of like Morrison and Tesco administrating 2 tier prices with their loyalty cards, why not just eliminate their loyalty cards and the administration coat and just do their prices at their lowest price end off.
SnooCompliments6843@reddit
The whole loyalty card price thing is so strange too. It’s not difficult to get a card. You just ask they give it to you
No-Relation1122@reddit
They wouldn't cease trading imo. We're far too important of a market (lol).
We're English speaking and densely populated. We're already swayed by branding and familiarity, and we sway other consumers (somehow).
Other than the US, the main English speaking markets and Aus and NZ - they don't have the same pull we do for major corps like this.
My very uneducated thoughts.
SouperKeir@reddit
It's what's needed.
SnooCompliments6843@reddit
Would it work though? Is it actually as simple as that?
Useful_Promotion_521@reddit
Indeed, and of course the fact that Amazon actively compete against small businesses that do pay tax is an unfair advantage that they possess, as well as harming the revenues here.
RoamingThomist@reddit
If you drill down into the numbers from HMRC, the tax gap is mostly those small businesses and sole traders. Not multinationals or the ultrawealthy.
cowbutt6@reddit
And, what's more, the multinationals nearly always operate 100% within the law, whilst small businesses and sole traders are more likely to be engaging in illegal tax evasion.
If you think the law as applied to those multinationals is too generous, take it up with your elected politicians, as they're the ones who make those laws.
jake_burger@reddit
We still have lower tax on income than a lot of comparable countries
Status_Ad_9641@reddit
We have lower tax on lower incomes. We have higher tax on higher incomes.
KungenBob@reddit
It also had a lot to do with greatly changing demographics with more old people per working taxpayer.
International taxing is an issue - and not an easy one. But dwarfed by old and sick people living longer. Which is a good thing! But not for the country’s finances.
DaenerysTartGuardian@reddit
It's not inability, it's fear. It would be relatively simple to set up tax regimes to make them pay more. The issue is having the political will to do it: if you threaten to tax tech companies, they threaten to leave your market, and governments believe that that would be worse for their citizens so they don't do it. One of the big advantages of the EU was that it was basically collective bargaining with these big tech companies: they can threaten to pull out of individual markets but pulling out of all of Europe would hurt them too much.
VAT on consumers would be a terrible solution because it's a regressive tax. The process of administering your exemptions for individual people (am I going to swipe a card at Tesco that proves I'm exempt? How will I know what price I'm going to pay?) would be too burdensome. But a sales tax on, say, digital advertising, that would make Google and Meta less competitive, could be effective.
Whoisthehypocrite@reddit
Tax avoidance is a tiny portion of the tax gap ( the difference between what should be paid and what is paid). The vast majority is self employed, small business and self assessment (non wealthy). Then there is a decent chunk that is the grey economy both for lost income tax and VAT
caketreesmoothie@reddit
I genuinely think some working class people are against the super rich and huge corporations being correctly (or even increased) tax because they have a belief that with enough hard work they can reach that level of wealth. harsh reality is, it's practically impossible to become a multimillionaire for most people, let alone a billionaire
the growing momentum of the green party definitely shows that taxing wealth is a popular policy though. especially shown now that they're polling as the most popular party for people under 50.
pm_me_ur_ephemerides@reddit
Yougov recently found that 75% of people in Britain support a wealth tax of 1% on assets above £10m and 2% on assets above £1bn. 12% oppose it.
https://yougov.co.uk/economy/articles/53245-what-tax-reforms-would-britons-support
And yet Labour refuses to do it.
caketreesmoothie@reddit
and this is why we should vote for hope, vote for change, or in other words, vote green
Chemical_Head_5842@reddit
I think 90% of us know that if we were given the opportunity to do it, we'd be looking into it. Hard to hate someone for something you'd want to do yourself
jammythesandwich@reddit
This, except the numbers are orders of magnitude larger.
It’s unfairness that breeds it,
a one man IT firm can more in corporation tax than amazon/ google etc.
A solicitor on 120k a year pays the same effective tax rate as someone raking in millions or billions.
Gov can give billions to major firms but only takes from the middle.
So should i be pi**ed at the single mum earning a little extra without declaring? the plumber doing cash in hand?
The lower and middle have been screwed over too much by those in positions of power.
I realise these all the little things add up but i’ll start to care when they start taxing wealth, when large companies pay their fair share When the gov stops wasting money on large companies etc.
SnooCompliments6843@reddit
Bailouts are hard to take as well. I saw something recently about profits are privatised, losses are socialised. Or something like that
Other-Crazy@reddit
In fairness, the cost of bailing out the retail banks is dwarfed by the absolute nightmare of a true run on those banks.
High street banks go under and suddenly the world stops.
jammythesandwich@reddit
Yep, i struggle with the same things
Think_Ad6364@reddit
Millions and millions.
Pleasant-Put5305@reddit
All the government does is occasionally name and shame big stars for moving out of the UK, like every single Brit that is good at Motorsport immediately moves to Monaco and doesn't pay back to their homeland during their career. But there isn't anything "real* that can be done - you can't blame anyone for wanting to live in Monaco instead of Bradford, or Slough...
Muayry@reddit
110%.
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
Maybe employees should be taxed for the following year in advance, like small business are!
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Or small businesses could pay monthly like employees.
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
Not a problem, then we wouldn’t have to pay the following year in advance!
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
You will have to propose it then.
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
I propose employees pay for the following year in advance, help the black hole and all that. Also that government matches any pension pot for self employed as they do employees.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
You realise of course that anyone employed is going to expect their employer to pay the advance tax? It won’t save the employer any money, might even cost a bank loan to cover it.
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
No, the employee can pay it monthly from their wages. So much hate and mis understanding in running a small business on Reddit, if they want to level the field we can start here. And as said, with government matching pension contributions for self employed as they do employees!
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Just imagine getting that to happen though. You are going to take tax from an employee twice, that would be a massive drain in the economy any other way than making the employer subsidise it. Even then it would be hard. I cannot see any group of people willing to call for this except sole traders with no employees.
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
Sole traders pay in advance also!
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yes only they would want it.
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
I do not understand. Why would self employed and sole traders want it, we already have it!
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
I talking about making employees pay tax in advance.
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
Why not if self employed have to? Black hole and all that. As said there is a lot of opinions about small business and sole trader/self employed, yet few understand we pay 40% tax per year albeit a year is in advance. We only get a rebate if stopping work or a drop in income so why shouldn’t employees be the same?
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
The 40% is because of the amount of profit, same as everyone else.
I can’t imagine sole traders would want to calculate a tax bill every month as is done with PAYE, though with some sort of open booking on a government server that would seem possible though probably not desirable.
That is probably why it is not PAYE, but paying in advance doesn’t seem to be the only solution.
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
Amount of profit only has to be tax above £3000 before we are pay for the following year. As said I get a pension so everything I earn is taxed at 20% plus NI. I’m not complaining about that, but you can do the maths and see why meeting the paying in advance threshold can be hit quickly and even with a profit of say £20,000 a year the 40% is a huge chunk!
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Indeed. But since it is in advance it only hits the first year (because the schedule has kicked in), so perhaps that’s why there is so little push back.
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
But why should anyone be paying tax on earnings they haven’t yet earned?
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
It would only be the first year if you constantly earned the same amount. It fluctuates and so does the amount you pay in advance, which hits your cash flow!
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
Well with the digital tax it won’t be a problem as we are going to be expected to at least start quarterly. I would sooner pay monthly than have a year in advance. We also have accountancy to pay for and as said the digital platforms which are becoming compulsory. Some one mentioned cash flow, it’s exactly that as many self employed and sole traders have to have a reserve, we spend far more upfront than a person driving to work!
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
No different to self employed which in theory pay 40% over a year, albeit half is in advance!
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
True but it’s a numbers issue
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
How do you think self employed manage it then?
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
I didn’t say it was right.
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
I’m just responding to how some want small business and self employed hit hard yet do not realise that they pay in advance and also get no pension contributions!
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
You get the same income tax relief on pension contributions don’t you? And you can make at least voluntary NI contributions
Sorry if this is feeling oppressive I am quite interested in what you are telling me
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
I have a military pension as I was in for 24 years. I am taxed on that and then income as the norm. I have never been able to afford any other pension but my point is the government doesn’t treat any self employed pension the same as employees. I pay NI anyway as it is added to my tax bill!
EasilyExiledDinosaur@reddit
If I lived in the UK I'd definitely be a tax dodger. I left because I didn't support the system and the regime. And I absolutely dont want to contribute to it financially.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Glad that you have left then. Which country did you move to?
EasilyExiledDinosaur@reddit
Korea. Its hardly a paradise, but the overall quality of life is better if you're on the lower end of the financial ladder.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yeah taxes are about the same I think, but it is definitely a place I would be interested in living in despite the scares from the North. I was in Japan for a bit and they got a bit panicky every time a missile test came close.
And of course they need younger people.
Sanguine90@reddit
Because if we could get away with it we would
Expert-Let-238@reddit
Plenty of the rich get away without paying their fair share of taxes so it’s only fair that the average Joe gets away with it on occasions throughout their life. That’s just how the real world works, you only get mad when you haven’t thought of it yourself
Neuroticcuriosity@reddit
It's cognitive dissonance. It's fine if a business person forgets tax because they are owedthat money and why should they have to contribute to society? Where as the disabled are just "drains on society". England is the only place I've seen this type of mindset
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
The US has it worse I think
Neuroticcuriosity@reddit
I've lived in both countries. I've been disabled in both. (Actually three, technically,since I would argue the country lines between England and Scotland definitely translate to this cultural difference.)
England has had the worst culture around disability and taxes of the three. Than the US. Then Scotland.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
It is only anecdotal, but I have seen a video of an American berating a legless vet for not getting a job, it rather skews my mindset.
Don’t know about the tax systems, it is the dissonance I was thinking about.
Dangeruss82@reddit
Not declaring a few cash payments here and there is a whole world away from what companies like Amazon et al are doing. So yes, some tax fraud is fine.
julesjulesjules42@reddit
Deliveroo consistently reported losses of millions, which HMRC allowed it to backdate as well conveniently over covid, and then it floated on the stock market and suddenly made a profit after years of consistently making a loss. That is to say, Deliveroo had never paid any taxes and suddenly became a listed company.
However that's not to say all taxes were dodged, since there is still income tax on a very small number of employees (none of the thousands of drivers are considered employees though) and VAT. Emphasis on "very small", though.
Anyway, it's therefore obvious that the answer is connected to what is going on with migration and the emergence of pseudo "employment" methods like zero hour contracts or Supreme Court decisions that a deliveroo driver is self-employed. Exploitation and illegality. The focus will be elsewhere on the "little people" because otherwise it unveils all of the rackets (hotels, illegal workers etc). Meanwhile they send people to harass low income or middle class workers as a distraction.
It's worth noting that the SC judge in the Deliveroo decision is directly related to the person in charge of the stock exchange Deliveroo floated on.
They also use imaginary terms when pointing the finger at the little people distractions like "tax avoidance", which doesn't actually exist. That way, tax evaders can get away with it. Tax evasion is of course a criminal offence.
There's very little room to avoid or evade tax in a normal employment situation. The average person isn't going to be doing it.
I don't (or I suppose I hadn't) particularly see(n) it as connected to benefit fraud as I don't know much about benefits, but I suppose you mean if someone was getting benefits but working at the same time. In that case I would question how they could do that unless it was cash in hand. Another government flaw if that is happening though.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
On the one hand making businesses pay tax when they don’t make a profit but people are prepared to invest is will not help the business environment, but the rules about how profit is calculated is extremely loose. Personally I think any business that uses zero hours contracts should pay VAT for the services regardless of the small business threshold that the service provider probably benefits from.
jamtea@reddit
Taxes are misused and are drained by a much worse class of scumbags. If it's not politicians or civil servants in administration jobs who drain the public purse, then it's the utterly undeserving benefits lifestylers or similar who simply take taxes for themselves.
As far as I'm concerned, every penny of tax paid is stolen as they piss it up the wall on stuff I'd never pay for willingly, so anyone who gets away with not paying taxes in some form is just not financing the leeches of society.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
As a matter of interest where did you learn to read and write?
jamtea@reddit
Not in parliament and not from a bunch of overpaid NHS administrators.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Which I understand to mean taxation paid for your education, so it’s not entirely wasted. Paid for mine too.
jamtea@reddit
Which I understand to mean you're deflecting from the epic amounts of waste and overpriced bullshit that taxes are wasted on. Holding up education as a flimsy shield to distract from the very real waste in British government and institutions.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Not at all you said ‘every penny of tax paid is stolen’. I simply point out it wasn’t.
jamtea@reddit
Wrong, taxes are not given willingly, they are taken. Your point has nothing to do with the fact that all tax is theft.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
We voted for a government that chooses to put taxes on us for the things it considers necessary. If we don’t want taxes we can vote for someone who will dismantle the NHS and police and stuff like that.
You don’t vote for burglars to come and steal from you.
APithyComment@reddit
Because we all pay taxes - unlike other parts of the world - cough - and - cough - we like to see the wee man win sometimes.
Bad - cough - tax cutting - cough - is - cough - bullshit to the normal person - cough.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Hope the cough gets better
MapOfIllHealth@reddit
This was honestly a culture shock when I moved to Australia. In England you don’t go around telling people you’re dodging taxes, especially strangers, because the assumption is that they will report you.
Whereas over here every other tradesperson will offer you a “cash price” alongside their actual quote, which is understood by all to mean “I can do it cheaper for you by not paying taxes”.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this
AdExtension917@reddit
Reading these comments are wild people talking like amazon are paying there fair share lmao and then crying about someone putting £90 in there pocket rather than in the governments hands.. It's hilarious.. You know why the economies fucked? Because people aren't spending there rainy day money within there communitys like they used to..
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Saving rates are up, so that might well be the reason. On the other hand people don’t really seem to care that Amazon avoids tax looking at its sales.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
I can see why PAYE would not work because there is flexibility in payment structures that do not exist with employee income, but paying in advance seems an overreaction and I can’t see a good reason for it.
GerFubDhuw@reddit
Why should we care that the local corner shop is doing some under the table deals when the Amazon pays £20 Tax + a gift basket of cocaine and prostitutes to the government. Who themselves charge chocolate bars and duck islands to their government expense accounts.
If the government could tax the billion dollar parasites maybe I'd care. But they're more worried about censoring the internet and policing twitter.
psych2099@reddit
Jeff bezos does it so why cant the average person also do the same.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
That works the other way round though. The average person does it so why can’t Jeff Bezos?
psych2099@reddit
Because the average person will be punished for it. Bezos will not.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Not sure that’s true, Amazon paid the US trade commission $2.5 billion
psych2099@reddit
Thats chump change for bezos.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Seems to be the same for the average Joe too
psych2099@reddit
Yeah sure whatever you say jeff
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Thanks
Rare_Pirate4113@reddit
I don’t know if people are forgiving. My mindset is that everyone would do it if they could, and many working class people do dodge tax by asking for cash when being paid for jobs etc. I’m more annoyed at the system that allows it, and the politicians who enable it
Bigbanghead@reddit
People see a huge gap between tax avoidance and tax fraud. It is massively worthwhile to avoid tax, and thats legal, but its mostly the rich that benefit there. And for some reason the law does not close the loopholes.
cowbutt6@reddit
>It is massively worthwhile to avoid tax, and thats legal, but its mostly the rich that benefit there.
Not really.
Paying into your pension is tax avoidance.
Doing so by salary sacrifice is further tax avoidance.
Getting your pedal bike via a "cycle to work" scheme is tax avoidance.
Owning shares via a Stocks & Shares ISA is tax avoidance.
Buying tortilla chips rather than crisps, or choc chip cookies rather than chocolate Hobnobs is tax avoidance.
Lonely-Job484@reddit
Everyone would not.
No_Mood1492@reddit
Yeah I'd be dodging tax if I had the balls
Difficult-Shelter-89@reddit
Not a problem. But as said, then we wouldn’t have to pay the following year in advance.
Old_Priority5309@reddit
Big time tax dodging? Fuck them, get them.
But the UK really really penalises any kind of small time success, tradesmen working insanely hard manages to step up to higher tax levels things get very crazy compared to other countries.
No wonder middle to higher income earners are fucking off to Dubai if their career choice allows it.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
There are a lot of stories about director’s wives being paid ‘salaries’ and planned bankruptcy and company swapping to avoid VAT. Small time success can also be quite as devious as the big time guys
Old_Priority5309@reddit
Probably because tax rates get insanely high, particularly on LTD companies you can be taxed as high as 75% effectively, it is ludicrously high tax in this country.
Or in other words don't work hard and get successful you fucking peasant stay in your lane!
Pay for more motability cars and the ever expanding benefit fraud.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Your post
“Probably because tax rates get insanely high, particularly on LTD companies you can be taxed as high as 75% effectively, it is ludicrously high tax in this country.”
Threw me, that is all.
Anyone on paying income tax on the income you describe pays the same tax rate. Nothing to do with being a limited company or working for one.
Hope this helps
Old_Priority5309@reddit
Except if you operate a ltd company you are taxed once there and again on income.
Thus as high as 75% as I originally said
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
And as a plc.
Old_Priority5309@reddit
I said nothing about PLCs
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
I know but it is the same.
Old_Priority5309@reddit
It most certainly is not
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Since you are talking about income tax and income tax is charged to employees and LTDs and PLCs have employees, it is exactly the same.
Old_Priority5309@reddit
Its not because I am talking about small concerns that operate as ltds not like ftse 500 countries
Tbh this entire conversation just feels like utter nonsense take it easy I am out
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
It really isn’t that difficult. Companies (LTD and plc) pay Corporation Tax on their earnings, individuals pay Income Tax and National Insurance.
The 75% you are talking about refers to income tax. If someone you know has this problem, they should talk to a tax specialist.
Good luck.
Old_Priority5309@reddit
As I already said it can be reduced and I asked a question off the back of that and then you got confused and ignored it
Whatever.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yes I agreed that🙂.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
I haven’t heard this 75% thing. How does that happen?
Old_Priority5309@reddit
So in very specific situations — usually £100–150k+ personal income, full corporation tax, salary + dividend mix, lost allowances, and maybe student-loan/child-benefit clawbacks — your marginal tax (on the next £ you earn) can hit roughly 75–78 %.
Now I can push that back down to 45% with some shenanigans, you would call me a tax dodger presumably and straight off to the gallows with me?
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
You said on companies, I am aware of the problem on individual employees, but thanks for the breakdown. It’s basically the same problem that underpins some fraudulent benefit claims as people try to avoid falling into these types of traps.
Old_Priority5309@reddit
Lots of companies want or need to be LTD companies this is about LTD companies.
The fact is we need to be taxed but tax should not be a straight up productivity blocker and it often is.
This that is described is me saying I can dodge tax from 75% to 45% and you are saying its OK
So yes some tax dodging is OK you seem to be saying.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Sorry, but you are not talking about a limited company, aim I misunderstanding what LTD means?
Old_Priority5309@reddit
Yes and a lot people operate LTD companies, do you have a problem with this?
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
No, I was looking to find out how limited companies get taxed so much as 75% and you told me about income tax which companies do not pay.
Old_Priority5309@reddit
That is someone getting taxed on income from a ltd company and includes personal allowance and PAYE earnings from the ltd company
I feel like you are struggling with this lol
XRayGeorge@reddit
Why are Brits so forgiving of benefit scroungers?
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Not sure they are. What experience made you think this? Mine was the exact opposite, with people strongly criticising benefit scroungers but seeing tax evaders as just doing stuff to get by.
XRayGeorge@reddit
UK's benefits and budget is larger than the combined budgets for the NHS and armed forces. Let that sink in.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
True if you think Pensions are a benefit, most people probably wouldn’t.
Ok-Pause4253@reddit
The Royal family,government/mps do it...why shouldn't you..?
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
The Royal family don’t have to pay tax. The MPs get punished for it, why shouldn’t everyone?
Gluebagger@reddit
Snitches get stitches
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yeah but that is the same for benefit scroungers.
Gluebagger@reddit
Yeap, nobody likes a tattle tale
DaughterOfATiredMech@reddit
Because we should all be doing it 😂
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Great way to bring the country down.
FootballUpset2529@reddit
If a plumber dodges £1k a year in taxes and Bezos dodges £3B they're both assholes but one is a much bigger asshole than the other. If they both paid their fare share I might actually start to see some of the wage I earn but I suspect in reality my tax bill would never come down even if both of them were paying what they owed.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Oh it would, it’s most politician’s wet dream to reduce taxes. That’s why Jeremy Hunt took 2p off NI
7hats@reddit
Why stop at tax dodgers?
Petty street criminals Litterers Waste Dumpers Public spaces vandals Shop lifters etc
Why have we gotten so impotent when it comes to maintaining any sort of standards?
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Feels like that doesn’t it.
CaptainPugwash75@reddit
I can understand why people get upset. We pay tax to look after the poor and hungry of the world it seems. Instead of looking after those who live here already.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Not really, Universal Credit costs over 50 billion, overseas aid which including asylum seeker stuff was 15 billion. There are lots of other domestic benefits as well.
Cult-Film-Fan-999@reddit
There's a difference between avoid (legal) and evade (illegal). Plenty of people dislike Amazon etc for avoiding tax but don't complain too much because they get cheap items.
Evasion (such as VAT evasion by builders) is deemed to be justified by a lower fee, with no real consideration given the wider societal implications.
BaronSamedys@reddit
Because one day you might be rich enough to dodge a shit load of tax.
Well, that's what those who reside above tell us anyway.
Nothing worse than a hypocrite. Imagine having morals and ethics and then finding yourself abandoning all sense of public decency the second you make it to the big time. You'll look a right twat then, won't ya.
Best to just let it slide.
Except when it's a Labour MP, of course. White collar crime is the preserve of the right leaning and wealthy. They can be as financially unscrupulous as they like and most folks just kinda expect it from them.
The audacity of a blue collar worker committing a white collar crime will get the proles really fired up.
The Panama Papers are a perfect example of our willingness to look the other way whilst at the same time being furious that our economic prosperity is kneecapped by benefit fraudsters.
Greymon-Katratzi@reddit
There is a mindset that if I do it it’s fine. If someone else does it it’s wrong in the country.
ComfortableBuffalo57@reddit
Brits regard government bureaucracy as a kind of force of nature. If you can learn to ride it it like a surfer rides a wave, it earns their admiration not contempt.
TomatoChomper7@reddit
I like Jimmy Carr and Amazon more than I like the taxman, so I don’t give a toss about them cheating him.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Amazon often takes more from you than the tax man.
TomatoChomper7@reddit
I wish
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Well that’s easy to solve, tıp the driver.
Dr_JeckyIl@reddit
I think people are forgiving because we now understand it’s the government who are the criminals. They steal from every UK tax payer and squander it on vanity projects, global wars, unnecessary bureaucracy and corruption with absolutely no regard for value.
We are constantly guilt tripped into paying more for ‘public services’, when all that happens is all public services continue to degenerate due to cuts until we are forced to pay privately on top of the taxes. Dentistry was the first, but now it’s healthcare, policing and general public services like waste removal.
The notion that paying tax is a civil duty to improve the country we live in couldn’t be further from the truth. The govt is no different to organised criminals who extort money under the guise of protection.
A lot of UK business work for between 3% and 5% net margin. Meanwhile the government take 20% or more off the top line. And they just keep coming for more and more and more.
How is a taxpayer supposed to reconcile all those decades doing the right thing - only to see everything degenerate?
The interest on the national debt alone costs every UK household circa £4000 per annum. Think of all those times you’ve skimped and saved a few pennies and cut back on Christmas, food, energy and basics just to get by - all the while £4000 is the annual penalty you must pay for reckless government spending of which you had no choice or input.
So we forgive because we totally get it. We understand that if every UK citizen paid every penny due and diligently worked harder to ensure we could pay more, nothing would change and nothing would improve.
We have a tax burden higher than any time in modern history - all the while enjoying third world infrastructure and services.
The solution isn’t more tax. The solution is a responsible government and independent financial auditing of what they do. If your child spends its entire allowance on games and sweets, the solution isn’t to increase the allowance exponentially, the solution is to teach and practice sound financial management.
The UK is doomed financially. Much like those people who max out credit cards living their best life, our government has had decades of just that.
dTmUK@reddit
Well said
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yes the interest on the national debt went from 8% of median household income under Gordon Brown to 12% now.
What would you like to cut?
Objective_Mousse7216@reddit
Because we hate our self serving, arrogant pricks of govt.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
LOL
Leenesss@reddit
"Why are Brits so forgiving of tax dodgers?"
Being governed by traitors I think it's everyones duty to pay as little tax as possible.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
The best way to ruin the country will definitely be to get rid of taxes. It’s bad enough now, imagine nothing for your roads, your kids education, stuff blowing up because things don’t get checked properly. And on and on. Mad Max here we come.
SnooCompliments6843@reddit
I don’t think people actually realise just how much work goes in to it either. To be that wealthy needs (I’d imagine) 16 hours days, 7 days a week. It also takes being in the right place at the right time. Just work isn’t enough if you never find yourself in the right place to take advantage of opportunities.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
True
Jinkii5@reddit
Ill accept no judgement while certain other English speaking nations have felons bribing the president for pardons and using healthcare subsidies to fund tax cuts for billionaires.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Don’t understand sorry
New_Line4049@reddit
"Fettering important skills to poorly run buisnesses" This is rarely the case. The UK government likes big multinational corporations. It doesnt like small independent buisness. It doesnt matter how well run or otherwise you are, if you are a small local buisness the government is actively working against you and using your own tax money to do it. I personally do not want the country over taken by giant multinational corporations, I'd much rather smaller local buisnesses, its also much better for our economy as they money stays in the country. Unfortunately the government seems obsessed with selling our soul to anyone that wants it.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yeah, free market Thatcherism at its worst. That’s an interesting point you make.
Axiom620@reddit
Because we all (and our parents and grandparents) hate the tax man.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
And yet we all do so much better with one.
Sovereign-1984@reddit
As the yanks would have it:
No taxation without representation!
Pinkie05@reddit
During covid, self employed people whose business was affected could claim government grants for support. The support given was based on your last three years of stated income, so the dodgers got a lot less support
captain-carrot@reddit
I don't feel comfortable about anyone dodging taxes since I pay mine but I would sooner direct my disgust at a millionaire dodging taxes than a sole trader struggling to stay afloat.
I guess a comparison would be how someone doing 80 on the motorway would raise an eyebrow but someone doing 110 I would say is a reckless idiot.
Few_Relationship3532@reddit
Don’t get upset at the millionaires. They’re paying high rate income tax and buying higher priced goods in local stores, farm shops, and generally supporting the local community. They might have a bigger house in the nice part of town, and a fully funded ISA, but they are paying their share. The owner of your local larger roofing repair company is probably a millionaire.
It’s the billionbaires which are employing accountants to get them around tax law, greasing the hands of government to write legislation in their favour, and driving out collective bargaining at every turn. They don’t have “income”, they have “returns” and “dividends” which are taxed separately, at a much lower rate. They also have assets which accumulate wealth, like art, and they pay for them and move them around using the tax loopholes they paid for.
Hell, they don’t even spend their own money; they take out loans for millions at a time, using their investment portfolio as collateral. They get an extremely low rate because it’s still hundreds of thousands in income for the lender, and they don’t pay tax on it.
captain-carrot@reddit
It's both. And I'm annoyed at both. I'm not massively annoyed at the business owner barely paying themselves minimum wage while trying to make their business work and realistically they're likely not intentionally dodging tax anyway.
I am absolutely annoyed at the millionaire who lives a millionaire lifestyle and cheats the system fuck them.
And yes, the billionaires are on another level. No one should be a billionaire. The rate of tax after £100 Million in wealth should be 100% as far as I am concerned but I don't get to make that decision.
Few_Relationship3532@reddit
That’s pretty unreasonable, to be honest. Businesses owners pay themselves minimum wage, or nothing at all quite often, when they start out because they want to build the business. The reward for that is future financial benefit when the company does well. That guy should be allowed to succeed without admonishment. They didn’t cheat, they worked hard.
And you said the millionaire who “… leads a millionaire lifestyle and cheats the system…” Who is this person? I was talking about the successful business owner. They paid their way there with graft. You don’t often get to be a millionaire without working hard for it.
It’s the billionaire who is exploiting the system from the get-go. They have teams of people who handle their money for them because they know how to game the system. No millionaire has access to that kind of expertise; the literally cannot afford t avoid tax like a billionaire.
Active-Task-6970@reddit
80 would make you raise an eyebrow?
Succotash-suffer@reddit
Two eyebrows?
captain-carrot@reddit
*wouldn't
Ruby-Shark@reddit
Don't you think this doesn't make sense as a position as they are only taxed on profit.
johnnyjonnyjonjon@reddit
For smaller businesses and sole traders/freelancers, it's often a cash flow issue. You can be a profitable business but still end up short at the moment a tax bill arrives... So naturally you do what you can to minimise that tax bill (legally).
Farne101@reddit
Absolutely spot on. My ran a business for 70 years. A successful, profitable business but the cashflow wasn’t steady. We relied on Christmas, full stop. For half the year we were in black, the other half in the red. We used our overdraft to balance it out. After 2008 the government brought in a policy to reduce debt and reliance on it forcing banks to reduce customers debt. This meant they systematically reduced our over draft over a few years effectively strangling us until we couldn’t survive. Another example of how so many policies cause businesses to fail through no fault of their own.
Aggravating-Desk4004@reddit
It's usually cash flow. This isn't helped by banks and governments not understanding this and not helping them.
To be fair, when I had my company and the odd times we didn't have the money to pay the tax until a contract was settled (we had huge upfront costs before we got paid), HMRC were quite happy to wait for the tax money.
The problem we had was with banks. We used to get what was known as a drawdown, they would take over the contract and basically pay you the money on the understanding when we got paid they would take the money back. This worked brilliantly for us for years until the banks decided in order to get a drawdown you had to have that amount of money in the bank already.
Um... If we had that money in the bank, we wouldn't need the drawdown. I've always wondered how many small businesses got screwed by this system.
the_joy_of_hex@reddit
A lot of people have a mild adherence to the idea that "taxation is theft", so they don't see tax dodging as stealing from the taxpayer but rather reducing the amount stolen in the first place.
Cosmicshimmer@reddit
Tax dodging ok. Benefit fraud absolute scum of the earth for defrauding the hard working tax payer. The hypocrisy is so galling to me.
They seem to believe that if you have money, you should be able to do whatever you can to keep it all. If you have no money, you didn’t deserve any money anyway.
CommunityOld1897GM2U@reddit
Tax evasion is disgusting and illegal. Tax minimization is fine and to some degree tax avoidance. You take what you're entitled to in life and pay what you absolutely must. Anything over what you're entitled to is probably fraud/theft and if you choose to pay the maximum tax you're liable for then you're a bit of a chump. They have loopholes to reduce the amount of tax you pay for the wealthy and if you know how to take advantage of them on lower incomes then why not?
If you're straight up talking about things like paying in cash so you can keep a job off of the books and thus evade paying VAT then that's between you and your contractor then them and HMRC. If you're cooking the books unlawfully and in such away you get caught then yes, you deserve everything you get.
AgileInitial5987@reddit
The problem isn’t Bob the builder, it’s Suzy Starbucks.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Actually the government reckons about 60% of tax dodging is down to Bob the Builder. There are some posts on it in this thread.
Living-Travel2299@reddit
Keep that energy for the rampant corruoption with local councils and contractors, the governement in general and the billions they waste on absolute crap that nobody needed or asked for but it helped funnel more funding into their millionaire mates companies.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
So not a fan of Baroness Mone I take it 🙂
-suspicious-badger@reddit
I’m not forgiving of tax dodgers. I just don’t think it’s a big of an issue as people think. I personally know a few business people who have done very. They employ lot of people are pay a lot of tax. Sure some don’t, but it’s just another convenient boogey man to distract from the fails of successive governments.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Isn’t an under resourced government more likely to fail
-suspicious-badger@reddit
I said I didn’t think tax dodging was the primary cause of the problems with our economy, and that it was being used as an excuse for poor policy making, not that the government isn’t under resourced.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Fair enough, your clarification is consistent thanks for setting the record straight. Apparently the estimates are we get 5% less than we should because of tax evasion. From my side that is enough to help mess things up.
n0d3N1AL@reddit
Because we are taxed to the brim on absolutely everything and yet all of that money seems to go nowhere, with declining services, infrastructure and no new investments. Meanwhile, corporation tax makes up the smallest proportion of revenue for the government, despite megacorps being valued in the trillions. It's unfair so any dodging of tax is justified when they are going after working people rather than billionaires.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Corporation tax does have a relatively low share, problem is that you tax companies more and they just put the prices up. When employees NIC rates went down prices didn’t when employer NIC went up, so did prices.
NobleRotter@reddit
If your business can't go on without dodging taxes then you don't really have a business. In most of these cases it is also a lie. The owner is usually still being paid. So it's not that they couldn't afford the taxes it's that they prioritised themselves.
peareauxThoughts@reddit
Yes. We are increasingly seeing failing business with increases in NI, minimum wage, regulatory compliance costs. When lots of businesses fail you get a failed economy.
WalnutOfTheNorth@reddit
I agree. A lot of people claiming that sole traders wouldn’t survive if they paid their tax. At the same time every sole trader I know is driving a bmw and taking 5 holidays a year.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I would have thought that.
zeusoid@reddit
I’m going to leave this here.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/measuring-tax-gaps
The problem is people apply problems that are American to the UK because of the news they consume.
According to HMRC the people and companies dodging taxes to the largest extent are not the ones that you would expect
KungenBob@reddit
That’s because the big people talked about here are paying every penny of legally owed tax. They’re structuring their business in an easy to reduce the tax they need to pay, which is very different than dodging it. So they might have a moral “tax gap” but not a real one.
Lonely-Job484@reddit
Great link, I hadn't seen it. So the gap is 47b and 60% of that is small businesses? Just found most of the money the chancellor's going to be looking for in the budget, without needing to tax (legitimate) people or businesses any more....
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
That is very interesting, thank you for posting that.
Whilst there might be a lot of questions about tax avoidance and whether the rules are fair, it seems that the general vibe that the little business doing a bit on the side isn’t such a bad thing is exactly the bad thing.
Great contribution
zeusoid@reddit
Yup if you go to figure1.4 it’s literally all small businesses doing the largest proportion of avoiding evading.
I think people conceptually just don’t understand that it is easier and more efficient for HMRC to audit large businesses and wealthy individuals as they are so few of them.
But there are so many more small businesses that don’t pay less individually but collectively it adds up.
CountTruffula@reddit
Honestly with how our government allows tax evasion from the biggest companies I'm happy for anyone else to dodge taxes. Even some well off upper class family with a multi million London house is going to be giving a negligible amount in proportion to the multi billion conglomerates
SterlingVoid@reddit
Lots of crab like bootlickers who hate normal people doing well but then defend millionaire/billionaire tax dodgers
Quick-Low-3846@reddit
If the tax system makes a business unviable then the tax model is wrong. It should be possible run a business of any scale and for the employees to be paid fairly for their part in the operation of it, from the bottom to the top. There should also be enough money to continue operating - reinvesting in the business etc.
Are tax dodging business owners doing it to keep their business afloat or doing it for the extra cash?
Every business should pay its fair share taxes to pay for the efficient running of the country. A business like Amazon’s couldn’t operate if there weren’t ports and roads, healthy people with an income to buy their products, law and order etc etc. By not paying their way they’re just taking the piss and we’re paying for. The shortfall is why we have roads full of pot holes, an under-funded NHS, and not enough bobbies in the beat etc. Every business depends on these things and that’s why they should pay their fair share of taxes.
Lonely-Job484@reddit
Or the business is wrong. There are plenty of business ideas that would require some workers, but wouldn't sustain paying minimum wage to those workers for example - does that mean minimum wage is wrong, or the business is just not viable?
I know it's popular on here, but only blaming mega-corps and billionaires isn't the answer.
Quick-Low-3846@reddit
Yeah, I nearly put that both need to be true, but I felt it distracted from my argument so I deleted it. And I think all businesses large or small should pay their way as it supports the country and makes their business viable.
TaffWaffler@reddit
We love a scoundrel
AlyBiker@reddit
Because the rich do it all the time and the govt keeps taking from the bottom instead of the top. We little people are being robbed. If the govt didn’t keep trying to take from us, we wouldn’t keep trying to hide it.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
The UK takes more from the top in percentage terms than other European countries. Not saying they shouldn’t just the facts.
AlyBiker@reddit
According to London School of Economics, Institute of Fiscal Studies, Equality Trust, Tax Foundation and a host of others, the UK super-rich pay comparatively lower tax than Europe. The UK is a tax haven and has been since the 1960s.
The Brexit vote was held in 2016. In good time before The European Union (EU) primary legislation to combat hiding wealth overseas, the Directive on Administrative Cooperation (DAC), proposed in 2011 and came into effect 26 June 2017.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the reference do you know the citation.
Of course, rich and super rich is a bit different so I would like to compare to see what is wrong with my figures
AlyBiker@reddit
A Google search will give you a wealth of results but must quote “super-rich” as part of it. You can also prompt AI for citations; here’s one I just tried https://www.perplexity.ai/search/db61df0d-b363-4570-9ad2-8e9d0cb61e66
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
For reference this is what I was referring to from the IFS
https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how-do-uk-tax-revenues-compare-internationally
AlyBiker@reddit
This is a broad review of tax revenue in general, not specifically on how they tax the super-rich. Hence my earlier comment must include “super-rich” —and I do realise I’m deviating from original question re why are we forgiving of tax dodgers but the super-rich are the most tax coddled.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Agreed thanks
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Thanks your thread was marked private on Perplexity for me.
I will see what I can find
AlyBiker@reddit
I want to conduct a comparative study examining how much tax the super-rich in the United Kingdom pay compared to their counterparts in the top ten economies globally. My goal is to determine whether the UK tax system structurally favors the super-rich, identify the mechanisms and legal frameworks that enable tax avoidance, and explore the most commonly exploited loopholes that reduce their overall tax burden. Include an executive summary of less than 500 words.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this.
I tried it, but to be honest I got the impression it was hallucinating based on a source about inheritance tax it was using.
ChatGPT could not calculate the share of tax paid by the top 1% across the UK and European countries.
And my IFS source does not really respond to what you are claiming.
I will need to be more accurate in repeating my claim
Illustrious_Pie_2585@reddit
It's the staggering scale that makes the difference for me. I can't really get that angry at a small business owner trying to survive when corporations and politicians are dodging millions with impunity.
Impossible-Alps-6859@reddit
Here's my 'tax raising' idea which would generate billions with little notable affect for most people.
The technical problems would, unfortunately make it semi impossible to levy at the moment.
Charge 0.001 pence for each and every form of electronic communication?
Thoughts?
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Not sure how you raise it, but it would be good to put it on spam.
Impossible-Alps-6859@reddit
I've no idea regarding technicalities or legalities of such a far reaching proposal, and nor does anyone else at this stage, but a tiny income from each and all messages, emails, spam, financial transactions, posts to social media etc would rake in billions!
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
I am talking about the system not the best parts of each place. Life expectancy in the US has fallen. The CIA Facebook puts it at 80.9 years, 49th place in the world, but its spend is the highest at more than double us and we are at 33.
Urban_Hermit63@reddit
Generations of propaganda that has fetishised personal wealth and bred hate for any groups that can be labeled unBritish. It is a far greater sin for a member of an ethnic minority or non gender conforming group to commit a minor crime, than for the already super wealthy to become more wealthy by dodging taxes.
The super wealthy are often viewed as harmless, eccentric, old fashioned types as portrayed in Merchant Ivory costume dramas. Or viewed as benevolent protectors of the nation. Neither of which is true. The financial crimes of the elite are seen as being victimless, as the initial victim is the government. The issues are often complex so most people will not investigate much further than the headlines.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Not sure about that now, surely Trump and Musk have opened our eyes a little bit to how horrendous wealthy people can become.
Urban_Hermit63@reddit
And we have seen it a little here with the Baroness Moan PPE scandal . But what I described has been deeply embedded in the psyche of the British populous, it will take a lot to change it, despite the 24/7 news coverage of American psychos.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
True
formallyhuman@reddit
Many Brits see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires. Therefore, one day, they too might want to "reduce" their tax bill.
Fragrant-Prize-966@reddit
I’m not so sure they are. If you look at the reaction to what Jimmy Carr did, it was severe enough that David Cameron had to make a public appearance and condemn it. I just don’t think people realise how bad it is and a lot of it is so difficult (and boring) to understand that most of us don’t have the same reaction to it that we do to something more visceral like terrorism. I read a book a few years ago on offshoring to places like Jersey and I was shocked at the extent of it and how little we hear about it compared to, say, stabbings in London.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yeah, no one likes Jimmy Carr, but there seems to be a lot of sympathy for the ‘struggling’ small business
Fragrant-Prize-966@reddit
Well I suppose if you can get people to sympathise with the ‘little guy’, you’re halfway towards pushing through your tax reforms. I guess what people need to understand is that your local independent mechanic is not the same as the Arcadia Group.
SlxggxRxptor@reddit
I wouldn’t say I am forgiving of them because I don’t think they’ve done anything wrong in the first place.
They did or made something that people valued and earned some money and I believe they will use this money better than an organisation that gets it for being good at threatening them.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Saying a bad NHS is worse than a good tobacco company is beyond me. Sorry.
SlxggxRxptor@reddit
Compare healthcare to healthcare because otherwise we’d allocate all capital to healthcare because of its importance.
My view is that private healthcare would be cheaper and more effective than thE NHS.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
America proves that is wrong.
SlxggxRxptor@reddit
America was doing perfectly well with healthcare until about halfway through the 20th century and reasonably well until the Affordable Care Act.
Hard to consider it private given all the healthcare companies have been hamstrung by the state and forced to do utterly silly things.
Even if I accept arguendo that it does count as properly private, I’d only have to concede on cost because American healthcare is undoubtedly more effective than ours. Their outcomes after treatment for many diseases are significantly better than ours.
Smart-Emu5459@reddit
Because fuck the Government.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
You mean let’s get rid of the NHS and schools and roads and safe food and that sort of thing?
demontrout@reddit
Reddit isn’t “the people” and most comments on here are political statements thinly disguised as real-life experience.
People aren’t forgiving of tax dodgers in general. People will forgive tax dodging for themselves or people they like.
I can’t believe it’s 2025 and people are still banging on about “the media” controlling what people think.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Like I said, I asked people on this sub.
But to your point about the media controlling what we think, perhaps I should have said controlling what we think about.
Just look at all the subs that ban people they don’t want to take part in their discussions
Some_Ad6507@reddit
Big tech companies aren’t taxed properly in Dublin. The government is worried they will leave for more favourable treatment
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
I understand the EU is working to fix that.
ICantBelieveItsNotEC@reddit
Frankly, I think a lot of businesses wouldn't be viable if they paid all of their tax. Think about those dodgy restaurants, retailers, and pubs in poorer areas - they have all of the same costs as their equivalents in affluent areas, but their customers have less disposable income to spend. Personally, I'm alright with them dodging a bit of tax, because the service that they provide to their community is worth more than a few thousand quid is to the government.
This is probably why the government never seems to be particularly excited about closing the loopholes. Every British government has the same problem: the electorate want contradictory things. Everyone wants taxes to be high, but only for someone else. One of the ways that they square the circle is introducing rules that look strict on paper but are powerless in practice.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
This seems to be the main vibe. I think this is a reason why our economy is so inefficient
i-spunkGLITTER@reddit
I think you need to address this to parliament. Thats where the biggest tax dodgers reside.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
LOL
shnu62@reddit
I fucking abhor tax dodgers
Cauliflower-Informal@reddit
The same reason people get upset over 'pensioners pay 65% tax' when it refers to pensioners paying 65% on their income over £100k (not exact figures) but they think pensioner = my nana who',s probably getting pension credit. It's programming to think they are on the same level as the top 0.5% rather than being exactly the people who will benefit from an increase in taxation of the very wealthy. Plus we are also programmed to be anti-authoritarian so anyone who breaks the rules is some sort of hero, unless it's someone stealing your car of course. Meanwhile, somehow, somebody on benefits or getting help with their rent is a scrounger costing the country billions, and the reason we need to scrap the European Convention for Human Rights is to somehow curb illigal immigration.
TLDR: people a fucking idiots.
invisibleboy74@reddit
Because they (the tax dodgers) own the media and condition everyone to protect them
BoldRay@reddit
I’m not at all. Massive companies and wealthy individuals do everything they can to get out of paying as much tax as they can. The British financial infrastructure is designed to facilitate tax evasion through the City of London and its multiple Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies. We should not only be going after the wealthy elites who funnel wealth out of our country into their offshore trusts and shell companies, we should restructure the political and regulatory infrastructure that facilitates this.
And it’s not just tax evasion, it’s any and all transactions which require financial secrecy; fraud, embezzlement, bribery, unregistered political donations, money laundering, terrorist financing, to the tune of billions if not trillions of pounds from international criminals.
JustASmith27@reddit
Literally what are we supposed to do about it
Aggravating-Day-2864@reddit
We're not... just canna catch the bastards...
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
It seems to me now that you are just complaining that you have to pay for things. Whether it is the government or private business that is how life works unless you are in serious trouble and need some sort of safety net support or are in prison.
Sneakyrusher@reddit
because the daily mail tells them to worry about other things. in all seriousness, the politics and finance boom of the 1980's set the standard for what is acceptable for the 1%.
while part of me thinks that if a business needs to tax dodge to survive then maybe it shouldnt. but then the system often feels so staked against everyone else you gotta do what you gotta do.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
I don’t think it is the system, we take so much for granted and no one reminds us what we pay for. Just negotiating with Trump to keep tariffs down has probably saved thousands of jobs but no one thinks that that is what their taxes are doing.
Jayatthemoment@reddit
There’s a bit of a balance to be found, surely. We don’t want large corporations paying almost no tax and cheeky fuckers hiding in their money in the country, but we also don’t want Jim’s wee shop to shut down because he’s not clearing enough to pay the NI contributions.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Interesting isn’t it, and I bet that legally, the wee shop as you put it is probably more clearly breaking the law than Amazon, possibly because of corporate lobbying etc.
zeusoid@reddit
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/measuring-tax-gaps/1-tax-gaps-summary
I don’t think it’s corporate lobbying.
It’s more that we are an ancient country and we’ve not had a clean sheet design of taxation for centuries.
And every exemption that everyone lobbies for has unintended consequences.
Think of how we got rid of special schools because we wanted inclusive education, that’s created a whole new class of education transport to the fewer special schools that can cope with the kids that don’t do well in normal schools.
In a way it’s a problem of politicians always satisfying the public by doing the easy surface level answers.
Even now, do you know how you’d get rid of most VAT tax evasion? It’s to lower the qualifying threshold, but no one wants to be seen as the politician that’s made that choice
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yes I agree about the VAT thing, I can’t get my head about the reason for the qualifying threshold apart from a cost benefit analysis of enforcing it properly. But you wouldn’t have to and it would be an in to check any business that raised suspicions.
Jayatthemoment@reddit
Yeah, for sure. As I understand (not much), a good system allows us to bring in revenue while not causing businesses and employees to feel squeezed and resentful. Everyone contributes, everyone feels like they are happy to pay for the things we decide (as voters) that we want.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Agreed
Useful_Promotion_521@reddit
I agree, but the problem is that for ages now Jim’s wee shop and that ilk get savaged by the taxman whilst large corporations will be taking the head of HMRC out to the F1, opera, a lords etc whilst a deal agreeable to all is worked out.
Jayatthemoment@reddit
Yeah. Im a lecturer and I earn above average, but am far from a high earner. There’s a lot going out of my pay, and to some degree, that’s correct — I received an education, braces for my teeth when I was a kid, I lived in a council house when I was a kid, paid for by the working peopl at the time, and I’m happy to pay for those things for others. What bugs me is the youngsters aren’t getting NHS dentists and safe housing , etc, and I’m still paying. The elderly that paid for me as a child aren’t getting the care they need either. My disabled sibling had to fight constantly.
We’re all paying into this black hole system but now I have two teenagers and an elderly, ill mother and it all falls to me. I genuinely don’t mind as theyre my responsibility, but if I couldn’t earn, none of them would be well cared for and the tax I pay (and my mother paid) should be insurance for my own family and for others less able to work.
I feel like I’m stating the obvious, but the system seems broken.
No-Onion8029@reddit
There doesn't seem to be a lot of uproar when Jim's wee shop is called 8 Out of 10 Cats, either.
johnnyjonnyjonjon@reddit
You are not wrong.
_SquareSphere@reddit
As a Brit, I take two perspectives:
So from that point of view, if clever people have worked out how to avoid tax and stick their middle finger up at Number 10 legally, then good for them!
Oh, and when I die, the government will take 40% of my already taxed wealth away from my family in inheritance tax.
The other point of view is the following:
In short, the tax system in the UK is fundamentally broken and full of corruption and lies.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Despair is a dangerous emotion. You can probably do exactly the same description of your lifestyle as it is subsidised by government support.
_SquareSphere@reddit
As a man in a family of four, of which both parents are working full time and don’t claim benefits, can you tell me what exactly is provided for me, free of charge by government? Everything they provide is funded by a small percentage of the tax I pay.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
I take it you don’t use roads, trains, planes, expect to receive the state pension, that you pay for your kids to go to school, have private health care, don’t care about food and hygiene standards, won’t call the police at any time in your life, would prefer people to be out of prison unsupervised, want unfettered immigration. There is quite a list of things that are different because the government regulates.
_SquareSphere@reddit
Roads, I pay car tax for that. Trains, I pay a private franchise who rip me off to go into London, who use a tiny fraction of that to pay National Rail whilst pocketing the rest to lobby the government. State pension, my children’s schools and everything else: I pay tax for that off my salary and my council tax on my house.
I get nothing for free, and neither do you.
jamtea@reddit
Honestly this. This is also why I wish government was reduced to the bare minimum functional size so there were less of the robbing bastards to dip their hands into tax funds.
LargeSale8354@reddit
Depends on who is doing the dodging and whether it is seen as dodging.
Amazon etc are one of the richest companies on earth. They are fully compliant with the law but know legal ways to minimise their tax bill. Legal it may be but in the eyes of the public, that seems very wrong.
Then there's what we get for our taxes. It feels like it is spaffed up the wall. Potholes in the road, crumbling infrastructure, libraries and public amenities closing. WTF are they spending it on?
So there is resentment for poorly spent taxes and resentment on perceived slights of hand for the wealthiest companies on earth. It's hard to feel enemnity to lesser mortals when the system itself feels bent.
The reality is that the cost to the tax payer of the 2008 banking crash and COVID will take a generation or two to pay off.
Governments don't help themselves either. Both ideologies need taking down to the river Mersey and having their heads held under until they see sense. Industrial strategy seems absent. Conservatives favour market forces so do nothing on the assumption that things will sort themselves out. Labour are ideologically opposed to making money so ignore it hoping it will go away. The lib-dems are the party for coming 3rd anyway. What Governments offer isn't vision and leadership so it looks like things aren't getting better.
genjin@reddit
You’ve asked an unserious question encouraging unserious responses. Are you asking about lawful avoidance or unlawful evasion?
If it’s avoidance, why should any one be bothered about businesses only paying what is owed.
If it’s evasion, I imagine no tears from most people when eventually caught.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
This is social media🙂
ClassroomDowntown664@reddit
because the majority of them drive jags
roboticlee@reddit
Who are they defrauding? The workshy? The illegal immigrants? The criminals? The health tourists? Migrant dependents? The foreign countries government keeps giving our money to?
I'm honest with my tax affairs. I don't care when people are less than honest about their tax affairs provided they're not claiming benefits at the same time as working on the side and provided they are British citizens; as long as they pay most of what they owe, then I'm happy to see them carry on.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
They are defrauding the rest of us, the NHS, the pension system, roads, police, social care. You pay more tax because they don’t.
roboticlee@reddit
I and many others say that shirkers and our own government are defrauding working taxpayers.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
So you are forgiving? They are also defrauding working taxpayers who pay properly.
Human_Suggestion7373@reddit
Taxes mostly just go to bombs and stuff like that anyways.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
For context,
Less than 2p of every pound is spent on weapons ( it is not just bombs) and perhaps another 5p on the support needed to use them, but some of that will be used for other things like disaster relief.
Human_Suggestion7373@reddit
Only like 60 billion a year, nothing really.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
No that is the whole defence budget not the spend on weapons.
You said ‘mostly’ so that was just wrong.
Some of this spend is used to check whether someone is bombing us or sending warplanes over our airspace and protecting against cyber attack. Would you be happy to get rid of that too?
Human_Suggestion7373@reddit
I can think of at least hundreds of better uses for the money.
StardustOasis@reddit
Defence spending is a necessity, unfortunately.
Human_Suggestion7373@reddit
No it's actually not. Food, housing, health care, clean water--those are necessities. Bombs and stuff are not.
StardustOasis@reddit
Defence isn't just bombs.
It covers things like intelligence and cyber security, which is a necessity in the global political whether you like it or not.
Human_Suggestion7373@reddit
No necessities are things we would die without like food and shelter, not things we think we need in order to keep up with others.
StardustOasis@reddit
So like being invaded by a hostile nation because we don't have a defence system in place?
It's not about "keeping up with others", it's about protecting ourselves.
Human_Suggestion7373@reddit
They got the wool pulled over your eyes bad pal
StardustOasis@reddit
No, you're just completely oblivious to the reality of the world.
Human_Suggestion7373@reddit
Imagine thinking bombs are necessities. It is sad, really.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
So you do want to pay tax, I wasn’t sure
Human_Suggestion7373@reddit
They can have every dime i make as long as the things I listed above are taken care of --- food, housing, and medical care in particular.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
So do you have a view on my question?
Human_Suggestion7373@reddit
I answered it. Because so much of taxes go to bombs and stuff like that.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
So you would give up education, the NHS and social welfare benefits because we also buy bombs. You have a very interesting point of view. Thank you for sharing it.
Human_Suggestion7373@reddit
You asked why some people are ok with "tax dodgers" and I said because some people dont like where taxes go to. And then you created a story in your head about what I think. Don't forget what happens when you assume.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
No you didn’t say ‘some people’ you gave an opinion unattached to anyone except yourself
neityght@reddit
"is it a drag on British society fettering important skills to poorly run businesses"
Wtf does this mean? It's just random words strung together.
johnny_briggs@reddit
It's another new and private account that's essentially sowing discontent. Reddit is full of them.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
It means that if you have people working for a company who can’t pay the right amount of tax and the business went bankrupt and thise people went to work for a more profitable company we would benefit as a country
mightyfishfingers@reddit
I honestly think it’s the weird dependency on class that we still seem to cling onto. The class system and the inherent belief that somehow the better your class, the better your moral value. The biggest tax dodgers of all are the upper class and this somehow makes it a less unacceptable crime, because we cannot let go of that belief that upper class = superior. No matter how many times we’re shown that to be false.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
I can’t shake that feeling either, even when we complain about the super rich not paying taxes, it does not seem to be the landholding classes that are in the frame.
mcskidder@reddit
I have a business and do not in any way dodge tax. Tax in this country is outrageously high for certain people and I'm one of them, but those are the rules and I abide by them (I don't vote for them though!). I hate it when people ask for cash and so on. I've had a load of work done in my garden and with the final bill they have asked for some cash (it is more than 15k total so a significant chunk). Not even offering a discount (not that I want one) just obviously wanting to dodge tax. It's awakward because the guy is a mate but I'm inclined to tell him what I think.
Lonely-Job484@reddit
Yeah I just decline, and try not to deal with people who insist on cash.
WebDevRock@reddit
If our government ( current and historic) wasn’t so corrupt I would absolutely be against tax dodgers. Until they change I couldn’t care less if you manage to get away with avoiding tax
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
I understand your despair. It is what the right wing media aims for. Putin has it down to an art.
WebDevRock@reddit
I don’t think this has anything to do with media. It’s blatant abuse of power by the people we put in charge. The tax payers’ money funds friends of government ministers. Contracts don’t go to the best suited tenders.
They openly waste money with no threat of legal redress. This isn’t just a UK problem but a global one.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
But not all of it, Johnson seems to have been a bit of an outlier and the government does far more good than bad
comrade-quinn@reddit
I think it’s because there’s a general perception that avoiding having something that’s ostensibly yours taken from you to give to others is less of a moral misstep, and far more relatable, than avoiding earning something yourself by taking something from someone else without their consent.
Of course there’s big elements of the system that mean it’s far from a meritocratic process to access vast amounts of wealth, but not withstanding that, most wealthy people do actively work hard, have a lot of responsibility and are generally intelligent and knowledgeable (not withstanding the ones who largely just inherited wealth, one of the may problems with the system I mentioned earlier). They’re probably just better described as massively over-rewarded than anything else.
Conversely, there stereotypical benefit claimant that is stigmatised, by definition, does not work at all. Typically it’s due to some dubious reason too, “mental heath”, “depression” or a physical disability that does not prevent many others from still working perfectly well.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yeah I generally agree, though I am not sure about your description of wealthy people, look at Trump, he really looks like an idiot who had enough money to pay people to make money for himself although critics who have worked with him do seem to think he is a bit better than that.
comrade-quinn@reddit
I specifically added a caveat for those with substantial inherited wealth; Trump fits in that bracket for me. I think at one point he actually had business valued at less than what he inherited them at.
Plus, the guy is vitriolic cunt.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Fair point.
UltraCat-a@reddit
Whilst everyone should pay a 'fair' amount of tax, avoiding (as opposed to evading) tax is a legal right.
A company that gets its tax management right is more likely to be getting other things right too.
BedaFomm@reddit
I think it’s a legal wrong. The law stupidly allows a company to set up in a tax haven in order to lend it’s own money to itself, and then use artificial “repayments” to smuggle the profits out of their tax jurisdiction and into the haven. Hence no taxable profits in the country in which they actually operate.
So Amazon (for example) supplies an item from its UK warehouse, to a UK customer, and is paid in GBP to a UK account, but the transaction is mysteriously logged as being in Luxembourg? It’s legalised fraud and is the first thing the government should stop.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yeah I am talking about evading.
miemcc@reddit
I am not sure where this acceptance is coming from. There are different issues:
Tax Evasion is outright illegal.
Tax Avoidance is legal, but many programs to do so may be questionable. This is the field that results in most controversy. It crosses so many boundaries - saving accounts, investment strategies, small business reporting and investment, side income, pensions, etc. this (generally) is not dodging, it is just trying to keep ahead and not drown.
I think it is because so many fall into that last bracket and the law involved is convoluted, difficult and not aimed at making life easier for 'normal law-abiding people.
There are clearly people abusing the system. But the enforcement systems are perceived to hit the 'easy hits' of simple mistakes. I appreciate that there are other activities, but they are not made obvious.
One program that HMRC are having success in is tackling the Candy Store and Barber shop money laundering schemes. But they don't generally advertise those successes.
WalnutOfTheNorth@reddit
I don’t get it. I know a few small business people with incomes of 100-400k all of them tax dodgers, all of them would have a high income even paying full tax. People are just selfish and entitled. The weird thing is that most of them are pretty right wing too, very critical of people on benefits, asylum seekers, always moaning about people cheating the system. They’re the biggest cheats I know.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
This seems to be a common feature among people who say they know tax cheats.
Gatecrasher1234@reddit
We are not.
I reported my boss to HMRC, complete with evidence as he was doing about £25k per year cash in hand. This was in 2010.
He was also a disqualified director and shouldn't have been running a company.
Nothing happened.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Thank you for doing that.
Efficient-Art7332@reddit
You are correct it’s not that simple
agarr1@reddit
Because we see how the government wastes the taxes we pay. If the tax income tripped the country wouldn't be in a better place because the money would just end up pissed up the wall by an incompetent government and civil service.
Useful_Promotion_521@reddit
It’s precisely because the media is owned by tax dodgers that tax dodgers are not seen as parasites.
SnooCompliments6843@reddit
Rich tax dodgers aren’t. People who live on benefits and do cash in hand work are more likely to be seen as some sort of low life
Aggravating-Desk4004@reddit
The rich don't dodge tax, they pay an accountant to avoid paying it. It's different to someone on welfare working for cash in hand.
SnooCompliments6843@reddit
The ones with accountants aren’t reported as parasites though. Both people are avoiding paying tax but only one is viewed badly no?
Aggravating-Desk4004@reddit
I agree, but I view both badly :) I'm not saying what you said isn't correct, just that one is illegal and one isn't.
If big corporations are avoiding tax legally then that's the system's fault. The tax system in this country is so complicated it's easy to find loopholes. The tax system needs overhauling and simplifying, but then millions of tax accountants would be out of work.
I don't begrudge people on benefits supplementing with a little cash in hand work. I do object when people work full time for cash, claim all the benefits they can and have a better lifestyle than me who works and pays tax. I've met a few in my time and it's shocking how much money they were making by playing the system. Their argument is always that they wouldn't be able to afford their lifestyle if they just worked full time, without claiming benefits. Yeah, join the club is always my response.
SnooCompliments6843@reddit
I agree with every part of that
Southernbeekeeper@reddit
I think it requires a bit of nuance. Obviously, Christmas is coming and kids want presents. I will not begrudge that dad going out on a Sunday to plaster their mates mates spare room cash in hand to then use that money to get their kid a new mountain bike from the local bike shop.
However, multi billion pound business like Starbucks not paying tax has meant that I boycott them.
Able_Resident_1291@reddit
I don't think that would be taxed anyway. Same as selling a few things on ebay etc.
Southernbeekeeper@reddit
It would be if you're a plasterer surely?
lerjj@reddit
You've got a £1k trading allowance it seems. So if you are a plasterer you probably are beyond this. If you have a 9-5 job then you can probably plaster up to £1k worth of wall without legally needing to tell HMRC. Likewise you can sell up to £1k of your old clothes of Vinted before HMRC needs to know
Southernbeekeeper@reddit
Yeah, I'm aware. I sell honey on the side of my day job.
What my comment was implying though is that I wouldn't begrudge a trader doing some extras in the run up Xmas or whatever and taking cash under the table. This is a completely different level of tax evasion than say Gary Barlow not paying tax on millions of pounds of revenue.
lerjj@reddit
Oh sure. Although the smart alecks will probably point out that another difference is what Barlow did was technically legal (somehow) and therefore avoidance whereas this is definitely evasion (illegal) even if the amount is tiny.
ChipCob1@reddit
Would that mean that technically a handyman could work tax free as long as their work was diversified enough and under separate descriptions?
lerjj@reddit
No it's cumulative. If you sell £800 of old clothes and £500 of plasterer services you should inform HMRC of £300 of income I believe. I am not a tax accountant though this is just what I could find from googling quickly
AncientImprovement56@reddit
Selling your old clothes on Vinted isn't taxable anyway (only deliberate reselling for a profit).
Vinted and similar companies can't tell if you're selling for profit, or just clearing out your old stuff, so they'll tell HMRC about (and issue warnings to) everyone who sells above a certain threshold, but that doesn't mean you necessarily owe any tax.
Able_Resident_1291@reddit
Probably have to get down into some technicalities and philosophical concepts here. If a plasterer does some plastering on their day off, are they working as a plasterer, or are they temporarily a hobbyist plasterer? Similarly, is their mate paying them for services provided, or giving them a financial gift in thanks for them spending their day off on something that isn't work?
Succotash-suffer@reddit
You could even suggest the friend is buying the children a nice bike for Christmas in return for the free plastering of a wall.
elementarydrw@reddit
There are 2 things here. Tax Avoidance (tax dodging) and Tax Evasion. Evasion is illegal, and is the act of not paying dues owed, which includes the fraud you mentioned.
Tax Avoidance (dodging) is legal, and is common practice, especially in businesses. This is doing things like tradesmen getting customers to buy materials directly so that they don't hit certain tax thresholds, or moving money to certain places so you don't pay as much tax. I know someone who just earns over the higher rate tax threshold, so now his overtime has 40% lost to tax. He chooses to pay into an optional pension scheme, which isn't taxed, and means his pay is back in the lower rate zone, and any additional pay he receives is only taxed 20%. This is an example of tax dodging, and I don't think is that morally decrepit.
Bushdr78@reddit
The UK has certain tax havens built into it including the area of the city of London and places like the Isle of Man where lots of big companies (mostly gambling) have offices. Dodging a bit of tax here and there is built into the society.
StuartHunt@reddit
Look at it from the perspective of the small business owner, they are multi billion pound companies avoiding paying tax on hundreds of millions of profits.
Why tf should small businesses pay when the big boys don't have to.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
So no one should pay? Or everyone pays what they want? Or we spend a lot more on HMRC
StuartHunt@reddit
They should force the bigger companies to pay. Then small business owners wouldn't feel so aggrieved about having to pay.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yes we should
Silver-Implement8707@reddit
I’m not sure that’s true, at least I hope not. I hate tax dodgers and put it in the exact same moral space as benefit cheats.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
As you look at the responses there are a surprisingly wide number of responses
No_Art_1977@reddit
Because the press constantly barrage us with immigration being the issue when its clearly the super rich and tax loopholes
lubbockin@reddit
Income Tax was supposed temporary to fund the Napoleonic wars..yet here we are.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Yeah, it was the war that was temporary!
Suitable_Camel5120@reddit
Many of us aren't, but the media drive much of the narrative. The public are easily sold on the idea that we have no choice but to put up with being exploited by large corporations
ProwerTheFox@reddit
I'd say it depends who's doing the dodging, what generation you're from and your political outlook.
For me personally, I really couldn't care less about a normal person trying to get themselves an extra 50 quid a month or whatever to help get by a bit easier. When it's someone that already lives comfortably fuck em, and the richer they are the more they can get fucked.
cardbourdbox@reddit
The government are part of the big bastard system that keeps screwing the little guy. The post office scandal shows this pretty brutally. There probably playing the same game as the small time tax dodgers only for smaller relative gain. I want the system to stay standing but I don't respect it. Fuck em.
Active-Task-6970@reddit
It depends on what you mean by tax “dodging”. If you mean tax avoidance. Well everyone should be doing everything they can to pay the legal minimum they can. Using all remedies and loopholes they can.
If you mean tax evasion then that is illegal and wrong.
DaenerysTartGuardian@reddit
There is tax avoidance and tax evasion.
Tax avoidance is setting up your affairs in such a way that you use the available features of the tax system to minimise your tax liability. These features are there to be used and not using them is stupid: even putting money in an ISA is tax avoidance. If they set up, for example, a tax beneficial scheme to encourage the creative arts (which actually exists) and your business is involved in the arts (which mine is) you'd be able absolute idiot to leave that money on the table, and it would make your business less competitive compared to the people who do. Or company cars with personal use and BIK, these rules are there for you to use.
Tax evasion is when you lie or dissemble to make these rules apply when they shouldn't. Things like, companies giving interest free loans with no repayment plan instead of providing salaries to directors, or people buying computers "for their business" and then using them exclusively at home.
The issue is that there is a whole category of things that are technically legal but morally pretty awful. Like Jimmy Carr's tax scheme was technically legal and technically speaking he probably could've gotten away with not paying his back taxes. He used the rules as they were at the time. So this creates a kind of creative "if you can figure out a way of fiddling the rules in your favour, you ought to do so" atmosphere which leads small business owners to get creative about the things they claim as business expenses, and Amazon and Starbucks to figure out how to not pay any tax at all.
The system basically says "here are some tools, if you can figure out a novel way to put them together then fair enough" so that's how most people think about it.
Plus tax enforcement is made out to be so scary that the assumption is that if they're doing something really bad, they'll get caught.
Lonely-Job484@reddit
The phrase 'tax dodging' is loaded, and either over or under-plays it.
Things like sticking money in a pension, investing in VCTs or claiming gift aid are 'tax dodging' - but this is legitimate avoidance and is fine. It's within the rules, and just structuring things to - legally - reduce your tax liability. Anything the rules allow here is fine, whether or not we agree the rules are 'right'.
Lying about/hiding income etc is also 'tax dodging', but that is evasion, cheats the rest of the system (all of us!) and is not within the rules. The key really is it involves deception and misrepresentation. Some don't seem to care, but many certainly do.
For arguments sake, if 5% of tax that should be paid is (illegally) evaded, that could be 5% off the rest of our tax bills, or 5% extra for public services... That feels much better an outcome than saving a bit on some work on the house and giving a tradesman with a wad of undeclared cash income to take an extra holiday courtesy of the rest of society. I read a report that estimated 'gap' was around 35-40 billion in 2023, and I doubt it's got any smaller.
Does anyone else remember people who evaded tax by not declaring cash income moaning they didn't get anything from the furlough scheme during the COVID pandemic, because it was based on declared income on tax returns? The volume of those moans shows how prevalent it is, and I'd not be surprised if the real gap wasn't more like 20%, which would be huge.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Thanks for this, I don’t mean ‘avoidance’
Broonmoose@reddit
Can we boil it down to Thatcher and the Poll Tax? After that, anyone on the bread line who creatively (or not) reduced their tax burden was seen as sticking it to the rich.
Interestingly, the public are sympathetic to working class tax dodgers, whilst the system is sympathetic to affluent or corporate tax dodgers.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
That does seem to be reflected in what is being said here.
AdrenalineAnxiety@reddit
The media likes to go hard on benefit fraud and ignore taxes because the people who own the media don't claim benefits but do like to pay as little tax as possible, including many gray areas if not outright illegal. As usual it's about making the little people target each other and not look at the actual big problems. I do believe that the main problems in this country are big business, corporations and millionaires, not the average joe whatever they're doing.
I don't think deliberately dodging tax is ever a good thing, but equally I'm not going to sit here on my high horse and judge someone for taking a bit of cash in hand or selling on eBay/Vinted and not declaring it etc.
But there are times it takes the pee - for example I know a family friend who is builder who earns £100k a year and brags about it all being cash in hand. Funnily enough he got contacted by HMRC last year and was completely freaking out about it - he asked my mum for advice because she's a book-keeper. I don't know what the outcome was, but I do feel like if you're taking large sums of cash and refusing to provide invoices and being pretty open about it eventually someone is going to report you and you're going to have a big bill to pay.
My husband owns a small business and he very frequently - and I mean almost daily - gets asked what the discount is for cash. There should not be a discount for cash. He is very blunt about it. The bank charges him to deposit cash into the business account just as a card terminal charges a fee. He pays the same taxes on cash as card. It's bizarre that so many people are so blatant about offering cash and expecting you to be tax dodging and they're ok with it.
I don't know of any businesses that have stayed afloat by dodging tax, usually an accountant is the best investment in lowering your tax bill anyway, but I guess if it was short term I might not judge, I mean life is too short for me to be judging other people. I pay my dues and mind my own business where possible. I don't see a bit of low income tax dodging as stealing from me at all - when big business is literally shafting us all it's hard to care about the pennies.
i_hate_budget_tyres@reddit
People talk about taxing the wealthy, but small businesses dodging taxes results in tens of billions in lost revenue. The simple fact is, because of the sheer numbers, it considered in practical to police everyone.
There is a video about it on youtube. A tax expert called Dan Neidle.
Repulsive-Ease2676@reddit
I am a business owner, and that business does tax advisory (along with associated services). Due to high profile cases of illegal tax evasion there is a general theme that “the rich are all at it, so why not me!” I can tell you that the loopholes people imagine exist do not really exist and most wealthy people I know pay a lot of tax in accordance with the law. On the other hand, I’ve never met a self-employed tradesman fixing something in my house who didn’t prefer payment in cash. Some tax reliefs were by design, eg IHT relief of businesses, some are simply to compete with other countries to bring investment to the U.K., eg substantial shareholding relief, and all are in equilibrium- change one radically and you get unexpected consequences. I’ve seen tax schemes come and go and untalented fail (someone mentioned Jimmy Carr earlier in this post). The majority of illegally avoided tax is the small business market - it’s always been that way. Some countries make it illegal not to issue a receipt for work done, this might work. But as the world becomes more cashless then this will drive out cash-in-hand.
St3lla_0nR3dd1t@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the perspective.
Sinocatk@reddit
When Rachel Reeves, Farage etc and plenty of wealthy individuals don’t pay tax, yet the government keeps finding new ways to screw normal people with extra taxes then some people do it just to get by.
In some cases it’s just better for people to avoid tax. If I needed some gardening work done, it’s easier for me to pay cash and the person doing it to accept as it works out cheaper for me and they make more money than they would if a proper invoice was raised and taxes included.
cocomasheroo@reddit
I don't understand tax, I understood it less when a family member got taxed for DYING. Then I was like, WTF is this. I get the logic of a fair pool, you add, you receive etc, but the logic in the current system is warped. Why am I paying tax for someone who's never paid tax in their life, yet receiving something for free, when I have to pay for it? Although with the current 'justice' system it is ridiculous the amount of kiddy fiddler's that get let off with community service, yet someone involved in money fraud, no threat to kids is locked up behind bars. Make it make sense.
SmashedWorm64@reddit
Well if you go back to 1776 when we let the most prolific tax cheat, George Washington, get away with it, then I imagine things would have turned out differently in our regarding to tax evasion.
I think some people’s definition of “tax evasion” strays from the actual definition as well. For example, arranging a combination of dividends and salary from a limited company my grandmother would consider as punishable by death, but in reality is a method encouraged by the gov as “Tax planning”.
I do feel like a lot of Tik Tok finance influencers do give out blatant lies as tax advice.
neb12345@reddit
Or do I care that amazon, politicians , and the like pay basically non?
Its also easier to justify tax dogeing when the government seems to be spending it on the most unpopular policies possible
K0monazmuk@reddit
Probably because, those that could, and haven't before, are starting to think dodging tax would be a good idea going forward.
ash894@reddit
My algorithm is crazy. I’ve just watched a clip of Jimmy Carr talking about his scandal and the first thing that comes up on Reddit is this!
SnooCompliments6843@reddit
HMRC would like a word with you. /s
qualityvote2@reddit
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