Adjusted for inflation, the WRX is a bargain if you exclude this year where they removed the base model. For almost a decade, the WRX pricing didn't change through the 2010s. Like 1K difference at most
A base WRX is over 37k, easily 40k after delivery and fees for a base model WRX. That is not enough car for that much money, so many better sporty car options
I was just asked to do a credit check and pre-approval to test drive an Elantra N because "they don't usually test drive those". Pretty crazy for a <40k economy car.
Find another dealer. I had no issues buying my Supra but it required calling around for a couple months and driving 130 miles to a dealer that wouldn't play games.
Very different experience than buying my old Gen 1 '86 during COVID.
That's so wild we bought a RAV4 Hybrid at the peak of Covid demand and we were still allowed a test drive. I thought this sort of crummy experience was localized to Kia and Hyundai. Just today went to drive a Maverick Lobo, and they didn't even take my license
My brother is in his mid forties with a multiple six figures income and they told him he would have to buy without ever driving it because they don't do that.
WTF guys? What adult is buying a car with no test drive? No wonder they can't sell these things, they market them to young people and price them for older people. You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to see that might not work.
Yep, it makes absolutely nonsense. I turned my ass around, found a dealer over an hour away who let me test drive AND were willing to give a manual refresher course before I bought the car. (I had not driven manual for more than 5 years, I was nervous).
On top of this, I was at antoher dealer with a friend who was doing listing photos and got to drive around a manual r8 and merci for 2+ hours. It's so weird a fuckig Subaru dealer agte keeps WRX's and STI's so hard.
Same thing is happening with Nissan's new(ish) Z. They're not selling well mainly because the frickin' dealers won't frickin' sell 'em.
The original Z was a hit because it was a sports car for the people.
They're treating the new Z like it's a limited edition Lamborghini or something, marking them up by several boat payments, optioning them to the absolute tits with $25K in floor mats, pimp paint, and stickers, crapping them up with automatics, then wondering why enthusiasts never want to turn over a credit app, three unicorn hairs, a signed letter from the Pope, and a $10K non-refundable deposit before being allowed to stand at a respectful distance from a locked Z.
This is easing up a little at some dealers as inventory is finally trickling out, but it's honestly amazing how bad people who sell cars for a living can be at selling cars.
This is 100% my experience as well… went to look at a sport (base) trim manual transmission Z, which the dealership was offering 10k off sticker of, bringing it to 35k. Wouldn’t let me so much as sit in it without “going over the numbers” first.
It’s a $35000 base sports car with cloth seats, not some limited luxury vehicle.
They sat there for quite a while but eventually sold, but I’m sure they would have sold almost immediately had they actually let people test drive them.
That’s insane lmao. Are you in a rough area? I could walk into any of my Ford or Chevy dealers and test drive a Mustang or Corvette with a basic intake form and my license.
I think that is typical domestic vs import dealership behavior. One time I wandered into a Toyota dealership to look at Tacomas. The salesperson basically said "its a Tacoma, it sells itself" and walked away - did not offer to let me sit in one, let alone test drive it. Later on, I went to look at a Colorado/Canyon and I was in the drivers seat within 20 minutes.
I think Toyota dealers have gotten really full of themselves. I wandered one a couple months ago for a good twenty minutes and nobody said a word to me.
Stopped by VW, Mazda and Hyundai the same day and was immediately greeted.
I wandered one a couple months ago for a good twenty minutes and nobody said a word to me.
I've noticed this is a really tricky balance - some people like to be left alone until they ask for help, and others encourage the interaction. A close friend of mine worked sales for Honda while I worked service and ops, and he always told me that he could never win - people were mad when he engaged, giving him the feeling of being overbearing or hawkish, and others were angry when they were left to walk the lot and browse. I don't envy salespeople at all.
That's totally fair, but what I was getting at holds up when it comes to the showroom - if the salespeople have been burned enough, they will stop engaging. Not saying you should have had zero interaction (I would have thought the front desk would at least call out to you and ask if you need help), but I could see where the salespeople could leave someone be.
No, I'm in a pretty nice area as was all the dealers. This particular dealer had a kickback scheme going they later admitted too. Even then, a bunch of dealers around me wouldn't allow a test drive. Just dumb imo.
Oh it was whole thing. I wanted to buy that WRX and the whole situation felt slimy. State AG agreed and long story short: a Subaru outback shouldn't cost 80 or 90k over the life of a loan when promotional interest rate is 1.99%.
That kind of thing is so dealer-dependent. My local one practically threw me the keys 30 seconds after stepping foot on the lot. I think they tend to be pretty enthusiast-focused though because they stock lots of WRXs, BRZs, and Wilderness editions. Sold for MSRP too.
There's nothing comparable performance wise that's AWD with a manual. And if you don't need AWD, you can get a BRZ which has the same performance as a WRX, is an actual 2+2 sports car, but is also priced like a Civic SI.
Are they? Subaru is going to keep making them forever, just like Mazda will always make Miatas. Because they sell more of them than any enthusiast car that isn't American muscle.
Subaru will likely have sold less than 12k WRX this year, and the GR86 outsells the BRZ 4:1, is that not failing? The Elantra N are BOOMING in the sales department this year, and Honda is having no issue moving Civic SI's, enthusiassts with the budget are not buying a WRX, they are buying a Type R, Z, GRC, sales numbers on those cars arent meant to be giant.
The difference is every single GRC, Z, N, SI, CTR, and GR86 being built is getting sold, there is plenty of WRX rotting on lots right now that have no indication of moving. Also the BRZ isn't any better, the GR86 Is outselling it like 4:1, it literally has no reason to exist at this point
You do realize 3 to 4 GR86s are built for every 1 BRZ right? That was the deal since gen 1. Go back to the frs/brz years. BRZ was always lower volume as part of the agreement
There's not an excessive amount of them out there though, and sales have been growing for the Z this year, Nissan isn't having an issue moving them when the dealerships aren't asking 10k over sticker
My guy the GTi, R, GR86 and BRZ are all down on sales so far this year. The Z is the only car I can find sales figures for that's actually improved sales in 2025 and that was never a high bar to begin with considering they only sold 2175 of them in 2024.
It feels like Subaru doesn't want to sell BRZs. Years ago when I ended up with a Miata the Subaru dealer drove the BRZ 5 minutes out and "let me" drive it back. This time they only had one in the showroom which understandably I couldn't drive unless I was buying it that day. Both times they were really trying to talk me into a WRX over the BRZ.
Not sure why you're comparing the 4:1 gr86/brz ratio when toyota has a say on how many gr86 and brz gets made. toyota is literally the biggest car company in the world where a subaru might as well be a pop and mom shop compared to them.
Toyota is around 250B on market cap while Subaru is hovers around 30B (plus toyota owns 20% of Subaru).
You're coming up with reasons to justify Subaru vehicles not selling well, have you considered maybe it's because the GR86 is $4000 cheaper for the exact same car?
That's a from autotrader canada. 2026 brz ts is $42900cad
While a 2025 hakone is is at $41000cad and a 2025 A/T gr86 is at $41000cad. And that's just the listing price. So you can do what you want with that info.
I'm not Canadian, in the US a base GR86 starts at 30.8k, a base BRZ starts at 33.2k, my bad it's a $2400 difference. The GR86 is actually nicer on the inside too, and the suspension tuning is better, there is literally no reason to buy a BRZ over an 86
The Elantra N are BOOMING in the sales department this year
In contrast, I think I've seen way more WRXes compared to Elantra Ns around here. They simply don't exist, and it's probably the one car in that category that's very out of sight, out of mind to me here on Long Island.
I haven’t seen any significant reliability issues with the GRC. Believe the worst issue so far is likely a bad batch of clutches in the 2023 model year.
You’re going to need evidence to back that up. The engine has won every WRC2 season it’s entered. It’s not even a 1.5, you didn’t even bother to get your facts straight before fabricating wild speculation.
I'm talking long term reliability where any heavily boosted small displacement engine is under a ton of stress. What is that extra 0.1 litre going to do in terms reducing mechanical strain? 300hp is the realm of a 3.5 litre.
We had 300hp from 3.5 liters in NA minivans from 20 years. I'd like to think 20 years of engineering and the car being a little more performance oriented than a minivan could bring us more power per liter...
What does “stress” mean? That’s not a thing in combustion chamber engineering.
I guess turbo diesel engines are unreliable, so sad. Oh wait, that’s not necessarily true at all. Weird how physics don’t back up anything you are saying.
I've seen people have issues with the engines blowing and catching fire on them, even not pushing the car it can happen. That shit scares me, idk how common it is, but it's happening to them.
The GRC is also kept to a limited production run to insure they are all sold and a profit is made on them, there are orders to be filled on the GRC, the sales numbers on the GRC are strong and growing. There is nobody trying to order a WRX, the sales are falling quickly on the WRX, dealerships have plenty unable to move. You need to look at the bigger picture to understand why WRX are failing and the Corolla GR isnt
The only thing about the 2 series is the maintenance costs long term, that being said I don't think they're less reliable than a WRX, just costs more when you do have to service it. Insurance on a 2 series is probably actually cheaper than a WRX, that wouldn't shock me one bit
That's what I'm saying, there's no reason to buy a WRX vs all the competition out there, cheaper cars that are equal or faster, slightly more expensive ones that are way nicer and faster, it has no reason to exist anymore
It really is, i have no idea who Subaru thinks is going to buy a WRX for 37.7k, but there aint gonna be many. Costs gotta come down on them or they gotta kill the car off, whichever comes first, I love the WRX but id be at like 30k to care to own one.
Wasn’t the company really struggling with a $4.5B net loss last year? I wasn’t gonna say anything about CVT. Those all suck, anyway. I think the Z is a cool car. I just don’t think Nissan is the way to go.
Nissan is gonna be fine as long as the Japanese government exists, the last thing they will do is allow Nissan to die. Nissan makes a good car nowadays too, people don't even consider them because of the CVT disaster 10 years ago even though they're pretty solid cars now, even with the new CVT'S.
The N is faster than the WRX in both a straight line and on a track, the N has more track oriented features included, is more efficient than the WRX, is cheaper than the WRX, it is the better car. The only thing the WRX had going for it is AWD at this point
A civic Si performance is quite a bit worse. I agree with the Elantra N being a much better vehicle. I never said I would buy a WRX or I thought it was great.
Also not a single person is paying MSRP for WRX. They've been going a few thousand under sticker for years now. One of the best new performance oriented vehicles to be able to buy during COVID. Only one car that could easily be had with deals.
I don’t mean to rant but as a side note: I am so tired of people bringing up “adjusted for inflation” as a justification for anything.
You’re taking one data point while leaving out dozens of others. Why don’t we talk about wage growth in comparison to inflation? Or what about the costs of other things going up that may negate you having any money left for an enthusiast vehicle?
It’s kind of hard to justify buying an enthusiast vehicle when your rent increases or food prices leave you with very little left over. I mean there’s a reason 8+ year auto loans are now a common thing.
Lol wage growth vs CPI is too nuanced of a topic for reddit. Wages generally outpace inflation. Lots of data and analyses out there. Some sectors may lag behind others, so that's one factor. Housing prices have exploded relative to wages. Historically where housing might have been 5x the median salary at the highest, it's something like 10-12x now. But housing has nothing to do with car prices. Car manufacturers dont set car prices based on living costs. That makes no sense
Considering wages have exceeded inflation (which is weighted to account for the greater increases in things like housing) maybe you should rethink this argument
The funny thing is that cars are one of the few things that really have tracked well with inflation over time, there are some outliers here and there but the trend is that cars really have increased a lot while getting safer and more feature rich.
In the US, nominal wages have outpaced inflation for about a year, meaning real wages (purchasing power) are growing. However, because of the high inflation of 2021-2022, cumulative wages since January 2021 have not yet fully recovered the lost purchasing power. Therefore, while the current trend is positive, many Americans still feel that their income has not kept pace with the overall rise in the cost of living
Wow. That is genuinely an impressively manipulative way to frame the data. That frames the entire thing around the massive (and brief) peak in 2020 and ignores the whole picture.
I’m sorry but are you being serious right now? You tell me I need to look at “the entire picture” and link to something which is only looking at the last 4 years vs. my link which includes the last 45?
Yeah I guess I’m living in fantasyland like millions of others who turned out to vote on Tuesday because the economy is so great and the wages we all have is enough to buy us everything. Right?
Sincerely, grow up. Maybe when faced with the reality that you have been misled by propaganda maybe you could look inward instead of lashing out emotionally
Inflation-adjusted wages are right around 2019 levels, and have been for well over a year. Enthusiast cars are definitely out of the budget for most people, but that has always been true.
In the US, nominal wages have outpaced inflation for about a year, meaning real wages (purchasing power) are growing. However, because of the high inflation of 2021-2022, cumulative wages since January 2021 have not yet fully recovered the lost purchasing power. Therefore, while the current trend is positive, many Americans still feel that their income has not kept pace with the overall rise in the cost of living
Wages still haven’t caught up to all of the inflation we have experienced. Plus while wages may have caught up in the last year, tar. and other factors threaten that moving forward.
First off, Q1/Q2 2021 are poor benchmarks because they are still on the tail end of the COVID labor market. Second, not sure where you’re quoting but it’s out of date. Median real weekly earnings in Q2 2025 were $376 (in 1982 dollars), compared to $373 in Q1 2021 and $371 in Q2 2021.
That’s literally a smaller timeframe than I provided in my link lol. Also what a terribly misleading chart, since it makes it look like real wages are so much smaller when really all that matters is their distance from 0, which even by that chart is very small.
So according to you, everyone is doing a lot better and has more income than ever before so there is nothing to complain about? Is that what you’re suggesting?
I’m saying that inflation adjusted wages are roughly on par with pre-pandemic levels. And yes, also that they are, with the exception of during covid, higher than ever before.
Not that there’s nothing to complain about. Scarcity isn’t magically gone, poverty is still a huge issue, housing costs represent a higher than ever percentage of household expenditures, and so on and so forth.
The thing is that many, though not all of those issues were issues in the past, and many of the issues that are new are not necessarily about recovery from inflation in general and more about specific issues with high-impact markets (like housing, which suffers from a supply crisis).
But yes, on the whole we are better off than before. Whether or not it feels that way is a different issue.
As it pertains to sports cars, I say again: they were always luxury goods. The perception that they were not is driven by a decade or two of cheap used sports cars. We’re dealing with some serious rose tinted glasses here.
Being roughly on par is not the same as being on par and as I stated: you have to also look at the forward aspect now. There are economic indicators that are showing that inflation is ticking back upwards and we don’t even have accurate data from the last two months to see if the trend is going in the opposite direction.
I would also be questioning any data coming from government sources since we know that this admin is willing to fudge numbers to make things look better than they are.
Sure but now you’re shifting the goalposts. And as for on-par… “roughly” in this case breaks in the opposite direction from what you claim. Real wages are as of Q2 2025, higher than the highest pre-pandemic quarter.
As for the future, I absolutely agree that there are concerning indicators but that’s not what you claimed.
And as for data integrity, the Fed is as-yet uncompromised (another point in favor of its quasi-governmental nature), and I can attest that none of the prior data in these charts has changed, as I have tracked them consistently across multiple administrations.
It’s not shifting goalposts at all. I very much stated several comments back that I was also looking at the current months and moving forward.
And if inflation matched wages then it wouldn’t have been such a major issue in exit polling as we saw it. People aren’t just complaining about one market sector, they’re complaining about the costs of everything going up well past where affordability is at.
It’s a shifting of the goalposts compared to what you initially were claiming and responding to, which is the claim that wages hadn’t kept up with inflation when, with the exception of the period of mid 2021 to mid 2022, they have.
As for your point about polling, you are quite simply wrong. People thinking something is true does not make it so.
The way we calculate inflation measures is quite transparent. Sure they are not perfect; no aggregate measure can be, but for what we are trying to measure, I am fairly confident in them - far more confident than I am in popular vibes. Economic sentiment is a poor measure of economic reality, especially compared to actual empirical methodologies.
As for other factors that are affecting sentiment, I’ve discussed these already. Housing is already captured by CPI, but given the compositional effects people are experiencing as a result, it is sure to affect sentiment, and it is a very real problem.
As for 8+ year loans… ok? Doesn’t change anything we’re discussing.
It does change what we are discussing. The increase in 8+ year car loans isn’t just a coincidence. If wages were truly matching inflation, then the higher rates of longer car loans wouldn’t be happening.
We are discussing affordability. If things were as rosy as you say they are then consumer sentiment wouldn’t be at a low point and all of these other factors wouldn’t be occurring.
Yeah, I simply don’t think your premise is reliable. You’d need a lot more than vibes and one particular knock-on indicator to make the claim you’re making. Causal inference, especially with regard to macroeconomics is simply not as simple as you claim.
There is absolutely no onus on me. Your problem is that if it isn’t in certain data points that you consider accurate then it’s not true. Instead of actually considering that the data maybe isn’t that accurate or isn’t getting the full picture.
Again, if you were right then there wouldn’t be as much complaints about inflation as there currently is, nor would there be more individuals taking out longer car loans just to be able to afford a new vehicle.
You still have yet to address why there are more 8+ year car loans. Why won’t you answer that?
There is absolutely no onus on me. Your problem is that if it isn’t in certain data points that you consider accurate then it’s not true. Instead of actually considering that the data maybe isn’t that accurate or isn’t getting the full picture.
You’ve gone from making concrete claims to (when provided evidence to the contrary) claiming that any evidence that doesn’t support your intuition must be flawed. Classic.
Again, if you were right then there wouldn’t be as much complaints about inflation as there currently is, nor would there be more individuals taking out longer car loans just to be able to afford a new vehicle.
Again, no, that is not necessarily true. You make a claim that something implies something else, the onus is on you to prove it. You haven’t. People in general have very poor intuition for things like inflation, and one particular phenomenon is insufficient to make such an extraordinary claim.
You still have yet to address why there are more 8+ year car loans. Why won’t you answer that?
And I won’t because I don’t know. And unlike you, I do not make claims about things for which I have insufficient evidence.
You actually didn’t prove anything because you made a claim that just because one year of wage growth negates 4 previous years of inflation outpacing it by a higher amount. Which in those 4 years people would’ve been making purchases and taking out loans that potentially set themselves up for an affordability crisis.
We haven’t even talked about the people that paid over MSRP for vehicles that are underwater on their loans right now. In fact the percentage of people upside down on their car loans is at a high point as well.
But whatever you have to tell yourself to make you think that you won an argument that you couldn’t even finish.
We haven’t even talked about the people that paid over MSRP for vehicles that are underwater on their loans right now. In fact the percentage of people upside down on their car loans is at a high point as well.
To be fair to mans who you blocked, this is irrelevant to affordability and income growth. This is completely a problem of people impulsively buying something outside of their means, or possibly FOMO.
Why don’t we talk about wage growth in comparison to inflation?
Every time the word "inflation" is mentioned on this sub there's a very predictable and tedious back and forth about how wages haven't kept up, except they have and it's only a couple of variables like housing and medical costs that outpace general inflation, well then surely the BLS must be wrong in how they calculate inflation, well then do you have a better way, of course not because we're not the world's best economists.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is, even though the medium wage hasn't kept up with inflation, neither has the WRX pricing when comparing similar specs over the years.
The bigger issue is disposable income has decreased because everything else has increased so much more.
Before I got my GRC, I test drove a bunch of vehicles, including a WRX. I could have gotten a Limited trim at a shade under 32k. I didn’t go with it because of how it drove but the price made me consider pretty heavily
I was debating it, also - there were some fantastic deals to be had. Unfortunately, there were a number of factors that pushed me away, but I've had a soft spot for the WRX for a long time. If the VA interior got paired with the current chassis, and they painted the plastic cladding, it's very possible I would have overlooked the other issues and bought one.
I had a hatch WRX before this so I understand lol. For me, it was a mix of the plastic cladding, tablet for infotainment, and the trans felt dull and lifeless
I still have my 14 wrx i purchased new, i service at the dealerships and they give crosstreks, outbacks, and i currently have a legacy while i get my clutch master cylinder replaced.
Yeah, that interior on the current car is, IMO, awful. I really liked the VA interior, so it felt like a dramatic fall from before.
Super cool that you had a hatch - having driven a few of that generation STi hatch, they're a really fun car. Plasma blue "wide fender" hatch? Yes please.
The wrx may not have kept up with inflation, but its performance hasn't kept up with inflation either. It's heavier with not any more power. A base mustang is a much better car and starts a 32k, which is roughly the same price as a brz. More powerful, more reliable, i havent seen the interior but its probably better on the mustang. Subaru dominated their market for years and then just sat and did NOTHING.
Average income increased over the decades. Medium income less so, but it still increased. Although wages haven't kept up, the WRX has still remained pretty affordable until this year where they aced the base trim.
You’re not alone OP. I also think the WRX is properly priced for current inflation. People aren’t buying it because of the new design. It’s grown on me, but I feel like good design shouldn’t have to grow on you. Same thing with food or movies!
Yup. All that plastic makes it not as attractive. Also the touchscreen inside feels like a decade old haha.
All they had to do was body color match the plastic pieces, add a louder Exhuast, and an optional STI style wing. I bet it would have gotten more attention.
For all the reasons you mentioned, I really tried to like the WRX and tried to talk myself into buying one. Dealership near me was constantly offering 3-4k off all trim levels and always had plenty of manuals in stock, so it seemed like a great deal and the perfect car for me.
Test drove them multiple times, and each time walked away just completely underwhelmed, not necessarily thinking it was overpriced, but that it simply wasn’t a fun/engaging car at all.
Well, no that’s not at all the definition of inflation, which is simply an increase in aggregate nominal prices. You’re describing definition of falling real-wages.
Yeah we intentionally always have inflation. But there actually was a point when wages kept up with inflation so I'm not sure why they think it isn't possible.
I agree. As I said, real wages have in fact done so since about 2022, and have in fact surpassed the last pre-pandemic quarter. They’re still down compared to early-mid pandemic, but that’s not a matter of inflation as much as it is a function of distorted labor market composition during the shutdown.
He used the word congenital so obviously he must be right!
/s but yeah we have real world examples of when wages actually did keep up with inflation, so not sure why they think real wages falling is part of inflation.
It’s really alarming. I’ve spoken to people who’ve worked at a company for 8-10 years not knowing their raises were eliminated by inflation and they have the same buying power damn near.
In particular, people have a hard time believing that their raises are actually inflation (in the labor market) and not necessarily something they earned above and beyond their previous compensation.
Well because not enough people bought the base model! On the used market, premium models seem to be the most popular.
Also not a single person is paying MSRP for these today. You can still find discounts when shopping around. I'd imagine snagging one for 35-36K OTD is far from impossible.
Well as someone that owns race cars and races. I can tell you I have never seen more than one or two of either type racing. Then again it’s only been 15 years of it pretty much across the country. Then again I may not know what I am talking about. lol
Yup. The WRX was an Icon of the 90's/2000. Having over 250 hp back then was a big thing. It was a monster. It was faster than a Mustang GT and Camero SS from a 0-60. It was awesome.
Then they just sat back and did nothing for over 25 years and now it gets intimidated by Camerys.
It was my dream car. In 2010's I was waiting for them to have 400 hp. Now they need 500 hp. And they need to keep the price the same.
There use to be a saying sports cars can be "cheap, fast, and reliable, but you can only pick two". Well with the WRX you get zero.
I was with you for most of that until the horsepower figures.
No one is getting 400-500hp for <$45k. The Mustang GT pricing starts where the WRX ends and it is solid power but still not 500hp.
300-350hp would be fine in a car that size and match the many other fast turbo "super hatches" in its price range. That would put it in the same range as the Ecoboost Mustang (which is it's real Mustang price competitor).
An STI probably needs 325-400 these days if they build one though, depending on price I suppose.
HP/Performance is definitely a huge part of it. WRX was iconic in the 90-00s when American V8s were still kind of in an awkward teenage phase before the modern muscle car horsepower wars
Right but the problem isn't that it's not 400-500hp...
The problem is that ~270hp it has now is perhaps too little but in no world does it need 400hp to regain what it had. Also the price would be a minimum of $10k more.
Honestly I think subaru screwed themselves a bit with the wrx GT and tS being a half ditched replacement for an sti. They loaded those trims with goodies nobody cares about at the price range. The so-called S210 is a travesty compared to what the S Line used to be. At wrx tS prices, I would pass on AWD and get a Type R, or go for the premium GRC. If they follow through with the STI I'm sure they would axe the GT and tS trims on the wrx so there's no price overlap on paper. Suppose the STI would start at $50k. I dont know what a viable power figure would be. Maybe somewhere in the 330-340hp range if it wants to be competitive. But I dont see subaru pushing numbers that high
The A45 is the equivalent of over $85k (converted, there's no US MSRP). Could compare to the CLA 45, which is also $65k though.
Those are a clear tier above the WRX and exactly my point. RS3 is 400hp, add $20k-30k to a WRX and it's yours. Yeah you're paying extra for the luxury interior, fine, shave off $10k... But, these are not competitors.
The WRX competes with the Golf GTI, Honda Civic Si, Hyundai Elantra N, and maybe cars like the Ecoboost mustang if you want to branch away from 4 doors a bit.
Even STI didn't compete there. That compared to "hyper hatches" like Golf R, Focus RS, and entry level luxury sport models like the Audi S3.
The earliest STI we're much more limited so it's harder to compare, that said if you convert the price to USD and adjust for inflation they were over $60k. Even the first more widely available models in the early 2000's would have been almost $55k when adjusted for inflation.
The same generation Civic Type R would have been ~$35k adjusted and was a different class of vehicle.
The same year R32 was ~$50k adjusted and is a more direct comparison.
WRX has never competed with M3 even in those days. An E46 M3 had ~340hp and a sub 5sec 0-60. Better interior of course and it's price was much higher at >$80k adjusted for inflation.
The WRX was always a bargain for performance. It put down lap times greater than the sum of it's parts and of course there's the rally heritage to boot... but it was never a raw numbers king if you want it to compete at the RS3 level it's probably going to cost at least $60k.
The WRX does not need 500 hp. 350 would be perfect. The STI however does need to have 500 hp. It’s funny I was the same way but I never bought a WRX because the 14 mustang GT was a better car for the money. Then this year I wanted an STI but they don’t exist and the WRX is a turd these days. I don’t understand what went so wrong at Subaru after 2010.
I felt that the power it made was adequate for the price and chassis.
I think bumping it up closer to 350 would be fine, but I don't think it really needs more than that.
It's not a car for drag racing and I didn't buy mine expecting to annihilate people in the quarter mile.
I bought it because it was practical and usable every single day of the year. Giving it excessive horsepower would start to make it less practical and usable every day of the year.
I'll play the contrary take and argue that I think the car needs to be built to be a better bargain as a "one car garage" sort of car. Ergo, it needs a competent automatic transmission to compete with the Golf R, Elantra N, GR Corolla, etc.
They seem to be heading in that direction by showing the new concept as a hatchback, which was my biggest gripe with the VA STI.
I agree the WRX should be a one car garage sort of car, but not for the STI. Its always been put up as a purpose built off road capable rally car. Its doesn’t need to be practical or get good fuel economy and it certainly doesn’t need a great automatic. Though I would agree putting the CVT in it was a trash idea that never should have happened.
The consumer-based STIs were never rally cars. Every single STI sold at a dealer would need considerable suspension modifications to properly compete as a rally car in amateur events.
Also, in today's economy, it's quite imperative for a car like this to truly be practical.
That's a huge reason why the big "sports" crossovers and SUVs have been selling so well. They offer the torque and power to blast down the highway, the space to handle Costco runs and all of the kid's sports events, and the comfort to mindlessly turn into a commuter.
I genuinely believe that there is an untapped market for performance sedans and hatches because nobody is making them well enough to bring over consumers on the edge.
You might be right, but the measure of that market is still probably under 10-20k units per year. It simply doesn't have the scale without huge margins. The only reason we still have the Mustang GT is because they also put that engine in the F150. They couldn't overcome the R&D costs if they were only selling it in the car. Subaru could make a bonkers fast STI and then put the same engine in their other cars like Dodge does. Then they might actually get away with the R&D.
Subaru doesn't compete with the WRX in the WRC anymore.
Those days are long gone and it's now 2025. Subaru needs to develop a more competitive product if they want to stay relevant in this segment.
The reality is that the economy is tightening and people are looking for better value across the board. Offering a product that does more will reach more consumers.
This is exactly right. You can basically use the Mustang GT as an index for cost and performance since its been in production forever. In the early 2000s, the WRX was about $25k and could do 0-60 in about 5.5s. The Mustang GT of that era was about the same price and 0-60 time.
Today a Mustang GT is slightly more expensive than the WRX, but performs significantly better
This complaint right here is exactly the reason why car manufacturers are leaving the ‘affordable’ enthusiast market. Cost of manufacturing is rising and the target demographic is never satisfied with what manufacturers can offer.
I am sad that these cars are disappearing but I blame the market and the ‘car enthusiasts’ that only complain.
BRZ would be fine with more power - should have been turbo from the start. Top end WRX is almost Golf R territory pricing but not an STI, and a fully loaded Jetta GLI is cheaper than the base WRX.
Sales are down even more YTD on the GR86 -15.9% vs just -8.3%. Its just that Toyota has a much larger network and GR86 sells in higher quantities. The WRX is a train wreck in comparison to the drop in BRZ sales YOY.
Both still cheaper than a Cayman. But tbh, I would have to test drive and compare them in detail, but since I can barely manage to get my right leg past the steering wheel, I havent checked on them in a while
I would take a used Cayman any day over a BRZ, the GR86 is good because it's cheaper, the BRZ at this point has no reason to exist. It's not nice enough to be a nice car, cheap enough to be a performance bargain, gets undercut by the same car with a different badge that has a nicer interior with better tech. If you want a nice GR86 a cayman is a great alternative
The BRZ and GR86 are the same car and the BRZ can be found and ordered cheaper. You can’t order Toyotas and their dealers like to play games. And used Caymans that aren’t super old out of warranty are still going for $75k+.
Next minute on /r/cars: "Subaru doesn't cater to enthusiasts any more and just makes boring crossovers.
Subaru are currently making two enthusiast cars. Hardly anyone is buying them new. And if nobody is buying them, they are going to stop building them - and then there won't be any used ones, either.
It's been stated by a spokesperson regarding production numbers. It was also mentioned in one of the many savagegeese videos on the twins. Toyota has at least double the number of subaru dealerships. This should be no surprise
Do something interesting and novel with their AWD systems in the WRX. It's bullshit that the best system they currently make is only available in the CVT WRX. Either figure out a way to couple VTD with a manual, or offer DCCD in the WRX. Even bringing back mechanical LSDs to the WRX would be really good, even with the dumpy viscous coupling center diff they use in the 6MT WRX.
Offer offroad-oriented versions of their performance lineup. The WRX is a complete no-brainer, but even a mildly lifted BRZ with some more compliance and mudflaps would be fun, and would make it really distinct from the GR86.
Give us a new model that North American enthusiasts can be excited about. Bring the Levorg here (with a manual, ideally). Turbo the Crosstrek. Bring the STI back. Do an Ascent Wilderness edition. Anything!
Fix the oiling in the FA24 and prove it to the world by setting up a cheap one-make series with the BRZ.
Figure out a new car to re-enter WRC, then sell it as a homologation special.
Literally any one of these things would be extremely cool and interesting to enthusiasts. I have no expectation they'd ever do any of them, but if you're asking me what Subaru could do to counter the "they just make boring crossovers" argument, that's my answer.
To point number 3, I have talked about the Outback Wilderness with one of my friends and how I was genuinely considering one when car shopping last year. I would have bought a stick Outback if they offered it. I get why they don't, but a person could dream...
The price has increased, and younger people are really struggling in the current economy. I think people still want these cars, but the chances of losing your job, and not being able to find a new one for 6+ months really is keeping people from buying these new cars.
Technically, wages have kept up with inflation in most fronts, cars included. Where they haven't kept up is on rental and housing, which is still a core necessity so people have less disposable income in that regard.
Yep. Inflation adjusted purchasing power is only down less than 1% even over the entire Covid fiasco, but the children on Reddit don't understand the stratification of the economy. Poor people used to just make do with their earnings, but now they've been given a voice on the internet, and believe they're owed whatever car they see on their TikTok reels; super vocal about it too. No... You just go drive a Versa for 17k. That's it. Don't think about the WRX.
The price increases are the CAUSE of inflation. People don't realize inflation is merely a measurement of collective price increases. Prices don't go up because of inflation, price increases IS the inflation.
Saying "x is more expensive because of inflation" is a nonsensical statement. It's like saying "it's raining outside because the ground is wet".
Also, in the grand scheme of car cost (insurance/maintenance/gas) the delta of regular vs premium is like 600/yr if you are driving 12k miles and getting 20mpg.
90% of young enthusiasts now just drive hot hatches. I see plenty of young people driving GTI's, Elantra N's, Type R's, GR Corolla's which are all more expensive. For whatever reason, nobody will tolerate driving a sports car as their daily anymore. Back in the 90's/00's, tons of people daily drove coupes as their only car.
Forgot where I saw it, but there was an argument made that in the 80s and 90s there was enough income to buy specialized vehicles:
a coupe for work/pleasure
a truck for… truck things
family hauler
With the way things are going, the average consumer wants all those things in one vehicle. Maybe two of you can swing it. It’s part of a larger socioeconomic theme that gets over looked.
But that's my whole argument. Back then those people DID NOT have specialized vehicles. They had an Eclipse, 240SX, Celica as their only car. Daily, sports car, everything. One car. Nobody I knew had the coupe and then a truck/family hauler. They did everything with that car. Even in my family, I grew up in the back of Grand Am's.
It's just that now everyone has been convinced that's "impossible", and they need an SUV to do what people were doing 20 years ago with coupes.
This obviously doesn't apply to everyone but rear facing car seats are fucking huge and didn't exist/weren't coming years ago. I make do with one in a polestar 2 / 2015 Prius but it would be impossible with a second kid needing one behind the driver's seat. Kids are in those for 2-4 years I think. There are longer sedans that could possibly work but it's easy to see why larger cars are common. Families upgrading cars when kids come along are going to go with what's available and what meets their needs. Once they have that vehicle they're going keep it for a while and if they upgrade probably keep what they know works.
I think part of it is that SUVs have become so much better and so much more car-like, there are a lot of benefits to having an SUV and not too many downsides.
You're right I bet this is a big part of it. Especially when so many SUV's now are essentially lifted small cars. And the Macan/Cayenne proved you can make an SUV that doesn't handle like total crap.
Those that are/were single had the sports cars/coupes. I knew a few myself, it’s exactly as you described. They did everything in those. But once kids and significant others become involved, the coupes are the first to go.
Our experiences seem to differ a little bit. Growing up through adulthood , families (middle class families) i saw them with specialized vehicles similar to what I described previously.
More recently, last decade or two.. it’s where I’ve seen what we see today. Single SUVs doing everything. Or if they had two cars, it’s essentially the gas saver + an SUV.
I’m not convinced it’s people diluting themselves (entirely) that they can’t do stuff in coupes… it’s getting more expensive to have more than one vehicle and if you have to have one vehicle, that’s where I can see where the SUV comes into play.
>Those that are/were single had the sports cars/coupes. I knew a few myself, it’s exactly as you described. They did everything in those.
I think this is why my argument is that it's more taste driven than it is financially driven. Because now you see young single enthusiasts way more often in a GTI/Elantra N/GR Corolla/Type R which is the same price as an 86/BRZ. And we both agreed it was commonplace to have a couple as your only car if you were single back then. So for the same money, people are not willing to daily drive a sports car as their only vehicle.
I also have to wonder if car seats have driven it. Because are people carrying around so much more stuff now that they suddenly need an SUV vs a sedan/coupe, or just that they think they do.
Forgot where I saw it, but there was an argument made that in the 80s and 90s there was enough income for individuals/families to buy specialized vehicles:
This argument isn't backed by actual data. The number of cars per household has been pretty flat since 1980.
Exactly. As a younger person getting into the job market, living on my own, etc, I would love to have either of these cars. But I can't justify spending much more than maybe 8k on a car to buy it outright, or maybe like a $200/mo car payment, but then I'd be locked in to the car for who knows how many years, and by that time I could need a completely different vehicle, I might have an emergency that wipes my savings, or I might not even have a job. The financial headache just isn't worth it, so I'd rather just save up the little money I have and keep driving my 260k mile Toyota
Police and fines are just too high to enjoy driving these cars one the road , people are giving up on fun cars … it is just not worth the risk these days.
Move on and go play golf ….
Pick up your anxiety pills on the way to the green …
Subaru never offered a “Base” trim this generation and is making it worse by killing off the “Premium” trim that was always a few grand more than the base GR86. Now their cost to entry is $5–6K more than Toyota’s. https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a68058341/2026-subaru-brz-more-expensive/
The current base gr86 is equivalent to the "base" (premium) brz. It's different than the first gen where toyota's base models was a slight step down below the lowest trim offering the brz
Ah ok gotcha. I just compared Toyota's and Subaru's websites and you're right—they're almost exactly the same, feature for feature, but the BRZ Premium gets a V-shaped strut tower bar standard whereas the GR Performance Strut Tie Brace is a $640 option on the base GR86.
Any idea why Subaru charges $2K more for the base BRZ over the 86?
base GR86 also comes with v bars. The gr strut brace is an additional brace that spans the strut towers and doesnt touch the firewall like the v bars
no real reason for brzs to be more expensive other than they've just always priced subarus to be more expensive even with no major differences this generation. i think the marketing argument is that brzs are more "rare" because the agreement is for subaru to build many more 86s than brzs. personally i think the base 86 has nicer looking cloth seats that have a pattern on them, whereas the base brz is just plain cloth.
The real kicker though is whether you'll run into markups with the toyota dealership, and whatever options you're forced to purchase due to toyota's allocation system. BRZs are also often discounted. So in reality, often times the BRZs will end up being cheaper.
Was considering the BRZ before getting the Z, sure the back seat is nice but me personally, I couldn’t justify needing to use 93 on a car with 228hp. That and the engine issues they were having at the start of this gen. WRX I thought of and just…nah.
Ye I was surprised by how bad the fuel economy on the 86 was too. It's main competitor, the ND Miata, is much more efficient and only uses 87 gas. But just in my experience I don't feel like this accounts for very many sales lost, I think most people don't care too much about fuel efficiency until it gets really bad like 10-20 mpg.
It's funny how Toyota are the only ones making what could be described as a true hot hatch currently and they make two of them.
The Golf R is a bit too sensible and automatic only, while the Civic Type R is basically the size of a 00s Camry nowadays. The Merc AMG likewise is automatic only and is a bit too pricey to be considered a souped up economy hatch.
The only other candidate would be the Renault Megane RS, but that stopped production last year.
I'd argue that the CTR being manual only is more a limiting factor in today's market than the Golf R being automatic only.
For a genuine single car that can do everything, most consumers would err toward the automatic.
A car like the CTR being manual only is fine for enthusiasts, but when the manufacturer knows their customer base is limited, it also means they will produce less vehicles overall.
I'd argue this if the Civic Type R was struggling to sell. It's not, to the point where dealers still think they're worth a stupid markup on them. The Golf R going automatic only probably didn't hurt sales much in the US, but I suspect it'll hurt the GTI, a car that people were far more likely to buy with a stick, even if people don't rave about the Golf manuals. Likewise, I don't think having an automatic has helped the WRX much in the States, although from what I understand, it's pretty popular in Japan with the CVT.
I think the biggest example of manuals actually hurting sales would be the Elantra N, where the only market the 6-speed really sells is in the US (I know they're available with a stick in most markets barring Asian markets that aren't South Korea), and even then, dealers are absolutely desperate to offload them because nobody wants them anymore. The manual's numbers look awful on paper compared to the DCTs, which puts a lot of people off; meanwhile the DCTs are selling far more rapidly at this point.
The inverse sales between the WRX and Elantra N come down to the fact that one of the transmission options is simply an afterthought.
For the WRX, the CVT is just carried over from Subaru's other models. It fits, so they can offer it.
For the Elantra N, the car was clearly designed around the DCT (much like the GTI and Golf R have been for the past decade). The manual just isn't good enough and honestly, I don't think it fits the character of the car.
The Type R isn't struggling to sell because it is not a high volume vehicle. Every single one they build will sell, but they won't build many of them. Whereas the WRX, the GTI, and the Elantra N will ultimately have larger production numbers by the end of their lifecycle. Those three are designed to cater to a wider audience, which is why they have options.
Interestingly, Toyota also makes the only manual pickup truck with the Tacoma (I just bought one!). I assume it’s a corporate directive since their CEO (is he still CEO?) is a racing enthusiast. He’s the reason GR exists IIRC, and it may be since Toyota is so huge globally that they can afford to allow fun vehicles to still exist solely on the behest of the CEO instead of some market research.
I've had a bunch of subarus including a few WRXs ranging from 2003-2015 and an STI, but now I'm old and bought one of them EVs everyone hates.
The wrx was a fast inexpensive car in the 2000s but now it's just noise, everything is as fast or faster even without trying. You could get an AWD kia with 360HP and a 300HP Camay. The wrx didn't stand out and A CVT in a sports car was a no sale for many people.
Think you’ll go back to gas? I’ve had my Model 3 P 1 year now and kinda crave these types of cars again after my lease is up but I don’t exactly know why.
Yeah you’re right. I think EVs suffer from being too good at the daily stuff that they become boring. Lots of power available instantly at all times, smooth power delivery, no warmup time, no maintenance. But I will say, long drives do become a bit of a chore and that’s when I miss gas. I’m also reluctant to take road trips or get lost down any remote roads for fear of not finding a charger. But day to day, man EVs are so good. I guess that’s why you need 2 cars, can’t have it all with just one.
I thought we needed an extra car and kept my Baja for over a year after we got our EV. But the I never drove it, the battery went bad, tabs expired and the paint started turning green. I finally sold it before it rotted away.
Which sports cars are currently outselling the twins?
It depends on how you define "sports cars". The Miata sells more. If you expand your definition, both the Mustang and Corvette sell significantly more.
Subaru is easy to single out for these rage bait articles.
Unlike pretty much all its competitors, the WRX is its own model that has its own sales numbers listed on the quarterly sales releases, so it’s easy to point to a decline in sales. The sales of its competitors aren’t as easy to find because they’re often bundled in with economy base trims. For example you’ll notice there is only Corolla numbers on this release, but nothing for just the GR trim specifically.
The BRZ on paper sells less than all it’s competitors (see its <2300 sales YTD above), but looking at inventory numbers and previous sales charts it’s obvious its production limited compared to its Toyota counterpart, which has always sold 2-3x more units despite being largely identical. Combing the 86 and BRZ together (which itself isn’t perfect methodology) and they’re outselling pretty much everything that isn’t the Mustang or Corvette.
In 2024 70% of all their sales were in the US. Combined with Canada and Australia it’s 82%. They are incredible dependent on those markets but are only stagnant in Japan losing sales in Europe and China.
That’s why on English speaking reddits the reception for Subaru is also different.
Sounds like Subaru been pumping these units out which is great for enthusiasts. A lot of supply means harder for dealers to play the ADM game and easier to pick one up
People like to single out Subaru because their formula hasn't changed much in like 15 years. My 2011 WRX made 265 hp at the crank. My 2025 WRX makes 271. I think the FAs dyno a little higher at the wheels, but when everyone else has been increasing their power figures for years, it's kinda like... what gives?
I think the big saving grace of the VB WRX is that it has lots of headroom compared to the EJ255 and FA20. All you need is a tune and intake and you're knocking on the door of 300whp and over 300 wtq.
The FA24 stock has nearly the same "peak" power and "peak" torque but is a much better engine everywhere else on the graphs than any Subaru turbo 4 prior.
Miata sales this year are fairly consistent with last year's so far. The people making it about nominal price are only partially right. GR86 sales are slumping just like the BRZ's, so assuming it's not just due to low inventory, it's likely target demographics and income. The twins cater to a younger crowd. Hard to find official numbers but they range from 30s-40s whereas Miata owner's median age is 62 according to JD Power. That's pretty much in the Corvette age group where people are retiring and have disposable income
I dunno why people always single out Subaru when it comes to talking shit
Because it’s been over a decade since they did anything original or novel. They’ve coasted on the past glory of the WRX/STI for ~20 years, and all the problems with the 86/BRZ are their fault.
i hate when people say 'oh but adjusted for inflation...' The people buying these cars dont care. They simply have less money to spend as salaries haven't caught up with the cost of products. And car companies certainly aren't going to have their high end employees take a paycut to help the general population afford their cars.
The base Z competed with the 2L supra that had less hp and no manual option, and people still felt the Z was overpriced. Those are the ones I see with discounted below $40k USD. I'm not sure about the performance trim, but I can see how the 3L supra edges out over the performance Z
I considered the BRZ for my summer car as I retired the E90 328xi to winter duties, but I couldn't stomach the lack of turbo where the fun roads I would take it (Alberta/BC mountains) is at elevation and its horsepower is already lacking.
The Toyota 86 is selling much better than the BRZ, and even that is not in great numbers. Maybe Subaru needs to cancel this car and let Toyota save money producing only the 86.
I've been an admin in one of the largest BRZ groups in the country (86ONE) for almost a decade. My $0.02 - the BRZ is too expensive now, you used to be able to get a limited brand new for $25k back in 2014. They now cost almost 50% more than that for essentially the same car. Enthusiasts who want a BRZ are more likely to cross shop used ones and there are some great used options between $15k-$20k, so it is very difficult to justify new. Economy is also shit, that definitely doesn't help. It's a great car and if you truly love the feel of driving, there's nothing better. We used to have huge events with a ton of people, but enthusiasm for the car has definitely declined over time. Maybe it's the price increases, maybe it's the lack of updates, or maybe it's just what those of us who bought into the dream initially grew up? I'm not sure.
They were always meant to to be an entry-level sports car so I'd imagine many former owners have moved on to a Porsche/Supra/Lotus/etc.
And while there will always be purists who want the classic formula of light/connected/RWD/manual, there are more who just want big brag-worthy numbers and don't care about driving feel.
In Canada the pricing has stayed more reasonable. MSRP for a base BRZ is $32,695 CAD and they sometimes do promotional discounts. I got my 2025 with $1k off. That would be like $23k and change in USD.
I think the cars are fine but nobody has any money anymore. Groceries have doubled in price. That's a car payment right there. Do I need a new car or to eat... Sorry car. Gotta eat.
I considered both cars when I was looking for a new daily.
The GR86 would have been pretty fun, but it's not practical and I also didn't want to drive a RWD sports coupe around during Chicago winters. I also wasn't going to sacrifice either my Si or Integra instead.
The WRX would have been more strongly considered if it looked better and didn't have that god awful Fisher Price tablet inside. If they offered a good looking hatch in the US, it would have made for a viable alternative to the GR Corolla. Ended up with the GRC and couldn't be happier. Hopefully that new STI concept actually gets put into production. There needs to be more competition in this class.
The fact is these cars are popular or exciting anymore. Everything about them is either stagnant or worse.
There’s literally no reason to buy either of these new; they’re bringing nothing to the table they didn’t serve years ago. In same instance, their worse now.
Performance-wise it is quite a bit faster than the previous generation, and the engine is a lot more reliable, which is kind of huge
However the design is lazy and ugly, and ugly in a bad way. I don’t mind ugly design but it’s the ‘corporate’ level of laziness in its design is what turns me off
Ya don’t think the WRX not selling might have something to do with being god awful ugly. Looks like a squished dodge calibre. Tail lights still intact.
Exactly this. It isn’t the price. It’s the worst designed WRX ever, and not in a good way. It’s lazy design too. It has grown on me but good design shouldn’t have to grow on you. The price point for what it offers for performance and reliability is good for modern pricing IMO. Oh well
Subaru does listen to their customers, they created a new trim level called the tS at the GT price that includes everything that enthusiasts were complaining about on launch.
It has Recaro Seats, Brembo brakes, manual only, a digital dash, adaptive dampers, etc.
Oh nice! Thanks for the correction. I might have to look into that. I've been thinking about trading in Crosstrek for WRX but also have had my eye on Civic type R for its insane value.
Love it. Comfortable cruiser for my daily commute. Stupid comfortable on the interstate. Pretty decent gas mileage as long as I don't get too much into the go pedal. Great soundtrack. The ride/handling is amazing for 90 percent of driving. It gets trounced in the 10 percent edge 9/10ths track performance by a comparable BMW, but will eat the BMWs lunch in terms of reliability and maintenance requirements. Eats tires (although that's an IS issue all the way around). Reliable till the sun goes supernova. Will hold value more than almost any other car on the market. Ownership costs are negligible.
For me and where I am in my life (early 50s, established, empty nester, want a car that is fun to drive when I want it to be, reliable no wrenching on it on the weekends works out of the box), it's perfect. Lexus dealership service is amazing. If I want to go be a hooligan on curvy roads and feed my inner 18 year old, I have the GT350.
Only have two things I don't like about it:
Infotainment system is a bit wonky with Apple Carplay start up. Obviously the console trackpad is stupid and takes up needed space which leads me to...
Console storage being limited to two tiny cup holders and tiny console suuuuuuuuuuucks. Only place to put my phone is either in a cup holder or console when connected to CarPlay. Wireless carplay dongles were unreliable (likely due to the wonky CarPlay shenanigans mentioned earlier). Though I admit it could be operator error in the set up.
That and 5 minutes after it's posted online, it's gone. I have a friend that has been looking for one for a solid year. Granted, he's picky with the interior color (black only) and only not open to buying a yellow one.
The price is going to be what the price is. You're not going to find one "cheap". Even the new 70K plus new models are sold before they arrive at the dealership. Hell, even IS350 F Sports are usually gone before dealer arrival.
I personally can’t stand the overly plastic look of the WRX. The wagon version that’s sold in overseas markets looks so much better because they kept the plastic bits to a minimal amount.
That and I think it’s interesting that a 2009 WRX was a much better performing vehicle than the current version. According to C/D numbers, a 2009 WRX could hit 60 in 4.7 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 13.5 seconds. The current version does it in 5.5 and 13.9 seconds respectively.
I just think either way for it to even have the same performance as the one from 2009 is kind of a let down. I think the performance should have improved over the last 15 years.
This should really be up higher. Yes the car should come warrantied with these upgrades but if you can transform a car for $2k or less, then it should be seen as a tuner special or a blank canvas. Also the VB did have a lot of stuff fixed in terms of drivetrain calibration compared to the VA.
I have basically the same garage except my WRX is a 2017 limited with 120k miles. It has a mild tune that fixed all of the drivability issues, and was only $450 (used cobb accessory). Between that, a new set of speakers after the stock crap blew out, and a shift bracket and bushing, the car is night and day better. It's a great reliable daily for a northern climate. Also I get about 27 mpg avg which is very good considering AWD and 250 whp with a manual.
I'm not an apologist for Subaru, and I most likely won't be buying a VB for my next daily. But it isn't because it's not a good option, I just want to try something different.
I bought a VA WRX new in 2018 and traded it in in 2023 for nearly what I paid for it new. Basically drove it for free for 5.5 years outside of regular maintenance, gas and insurance.
Pretty good considering most performance cars depreciate pretty hard.
Agreed on all points. I considered the GRC as well, but I felt the interior and the larger FA24 were more to my taste in the WRX.
I love driving mine, and I love that it feels like an old-new car. Infotainment aside, everything feels very mechanical and "real." There's no fake engine noise, there's no auto rev-matching, the AWD is legit and not FWD-based, you can hear the exhaust in the cabin, you can hear the transmission whine. It feels so much like my old '11 WRX just with a facelift.
I just have a Cobb catback and factory short shifter + Cobb weighted knob right now. An intake, protune, Rays wheels, and maybe some better brake pads are on my wishlist.
The Elantra N is the affordable sporty car to get, I know the looks are polarizing but it's just a good deal that balances fun and practicality well enough.
Probably just depends on your area. My local dealer had 3 or 4 on the lot when I bought mine, and 6 months later when I came in for service, they had another 4 or 5 on the lot new.
It’s not enough that we have to have motor1 articles constantly spammed on this sub, but now we have to have motor1 articles that just reheat information from other articles that this sub fully discussed days ago
I think the BRZ is in part of word constantly going around that it’s going to get a turbo, then it never happens. My wife was waiting for that, don’t want to pull the trigger on a BRZ then suddenly the new model finally gets a turbo.
Now she wants a MDX because we have a baby on the way.
I am not the biggest performance economy car guy so I may lack credibility here, but with those prices I would speculate the average MSRP of a new WRX is sitting in the 40K+ range. For that kind of money, you're not that far off of a Civic Type-R, GR Corolla, Golf R, which for better or worse have been for less controversial in the enthusiast crowd and are way "cooler", to say nothing of their performance.
Personally I feel like I'd just upgrade to one of them or save and get the Elantra N or try to find a deal on a GTI.
Sports cars typically aren't volume leaders, but the WRX could be a useful vehicle you could cross shop against a crossover, if it came as a hatchback.
The WRX has soo much body cladding it looks like a Civic and an Isuzu Vehicross fucked and had this....thing
Everybody has heard or knows that the BRZ is a ticking timebomb of rod bearing failure and is underpowered as hell compared to the competition. Yeah, supposedly they fixed the bearings in '14 but it still happens.
Personally I draw the line at CVT transmissions. Maybe I need to be better educated about them but they don’t strike me as appropriate in a performance car.
More and more, economists are using the phrase "K-shaped" to describe the US economy. They mean that the majority of consumer spending is coming from the poorest people and the richest people. (The "K" is lying on its back on the X axis).
...the poorest people spend so much because there are so many of them; the richest people because they got most of the money.
This results in a "missing middle." There are not many consumers buying middle-market, middle-priced goods.
This means there are two very popular classes of vehicles right now: very expensive ones, and very cheap ones. The "moderately-priced" class of vehicle? Not popular.
If you want to move inventory, you want to be selling either clapped-out 4th-gen Altimas, or 911s.
"Affordable sports coupe" - a $35k BRZ - sits right at the nadir of the K.
I feel like most people who are considering the BRZ probably have that as a backup if the can’t get a GR86 at the right price, spec, and whatever else. That badge def matters, even if it is the same car.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
The BRZ is too much money for people to care, and the WRX isnt enough car and too much money for people to care.
Independent-Win-4187@reddit
You must not have seen the track/hpde community where 70% of the cars are GR86/BRZ
Lower_Kick268@reddit
You must not be part of the rest of the general population where almost nobody is buying a GR86 or BRZ
Independent-Win-4187@reddit
The general population doesn’t buy sports cars, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t demand in the niche markets.
CharacterMedium558@reddit
Adjusted for inflation, the WRX is a bargain if you exclude this year where they removed the base model. For almost a decade, the WRX pricing didn't change through the 2010s. Like 1K difference at most
Lower_Kick268@reddit
A base WRX is over 37k, easily 40k after delivery and fees for a base model WRX. That is not enough car for that much money, so many better sporty car options
Guac_in_my_rarri@reddit
Don't forget the pia it is to test drive them at some dealers and/or the adm because it's a WRX.
I had the hardest time finding a VA I could test drive without buying first.
thedogthatmooed@reddit
I had to get a credit pull and have money down to do a test drive on an Mk8 Golf R. A used Golf R. Its just an economy car bruh
franzn@reddit
I was just asked to do a credit check and pre-approval to test drive an Elantra N because "they don't usually test drive those". Pretty crazy for a <40k economy car.
MSTmatt@reddit
That's wild, my dealership was like "yeah come on down!" When I called about the N
jalopaf2@reddit
Opposite experience for me. I was 100% ready to pull thr trigger on the N. Dealership wouldn't allow a test drive and kept pushing the Ioniq 5 (non-N)
Larcya@reddit
Meanwhile my Local Toyota Dealership requires a hard credit pull and money down to test drive a base model Rav 4.
The KIA dealership just gave me the keys to a top trim level sportage and told me to take it for a spin.
Want to guess what car is in my garage right now?
Shit the Mazda dealership just gave me the keys to a top trim level CX-70 and told me to take it for a spin. Salesman didn't even come with me.
Snow_source@reddit
Find another dealer. I had no issues buying my Supra but it required calling around for a couple months and driving 130 miles to a dealer that wouldn't play games.
Very different experience than buying my old Gen 1 '86 during COVID.
thedogthatmooed@reddit
I’m sure Toyota is nice. I hear they are reliable. But the stories I hear about the dealer experience time and time again push me to other brands.
fieldsofgreen@reddit
Reliability should be the #1 thing you look at in a car. Toyotas can’t be beat.
jalopaf2@reddit
That's so wild we bought a RAV4 Hybrid at the peak of Covid demand and we were still allowed a test drive. I thought this sort of crummy experience was localized to Kia and Hyundai. Just today went to drive a Maverick Lobo, and they didn't even take my license
Inconsequentialish@reddit
Wat. One of these things is not like the other...
muftak3@reddit
My dealership gave me the Elantra N as a loaner.
Siguard_@reddit
the dealer I went to let me take a golf r out by myself for almost 45 minutes.
ViewedConch697@reddit
I had a similar experience with a GLI. Like it's just a Jetta, why are you guarding it like some limited run supercar
one_five_one@reddit
Just...walk away....
ViewedConch697@reddit
Yeah I haven't been back there for a few years now. Not worth the hassle
Over_engineered81@reddit
Weird. I bought my GLI used, and the sales guy gave me the keys and said “bring it back within an hour, have fun”.
thedogthatmooed@reddit
A GLI is crazy because that barely even cracks 30k
TzarKazm@reddit
My brother is in his mid forties with a multiple six figures income and they told him he would have to buy without ever driving it because they don't do that.
WTF guys? What adult is buying a car with no test drive? No wonder they can't sell these things, they market them to young people and price them for older people. You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to see that might not work.
Guac_in_my_rarri@reddit
Yep, it makes absolutely nonsense. I turned my ass around, found a dealer over an hour away who let me test drive AND were willing to give a manual refresher course before I bought the car. (I had not driven manual for more than 5 years, I was nervous).
On top of this, I was at antoher dealer with a friend who was doing listing photos and got to drive around a manual r8 and merci for 2+ hours. It's so weird a fuckig Subaru dealer agte keeps WRX's and STI's so hard.
Inconsequentialish@reddit
Same thing is happening with Nissan's new(ish) Z. They're not selling well mainly because the frickin' dealers won't frickin' sell 'em.
The original Z was a hit because it was a sports car for the people.
They're treating the new Z like it's a limited edition Lamborghini or something, marking them up by several boat payments, optioning them to the absolute tits with $25K in floor mats, pimp paint, and stickers, crapping them up with automatics, then wondering why enthusiasts never want to turn over a credit app, three unicorn hairs, a signed letter from the Pope, and a $10K non-refundable deposit before being allowed to stand at a respectful distance from a locked Z.
This is easing up a little at some dealers as inventory is finally trickling out, but it's honestly amazing how bad people who sell cars for a living can be at selling cars.
thisisjustascreename@reddit
If groceries acted like car dealers the whole world would starve.
RichieJ86@reddit
Don't give them ideas.
Rand0m_Spirit_Lover@reddit
This is 100% my experience as well… went to look at a sport (base) trim manual transmission Z, which the dealership was offering 10k off sticker of, bringing it to 35k. Wouldn’t let me so much as sit in it without “going over the numbers” first.
It’s a $35000 base sports car with cloth seats, not some limited luxury vehicle.
They sat there for quite a while but eventually sold, but I’m sure they would have sold almost immediately had they actually let people test drive them.
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
That’s insane lmao. Are you in a rough area? I could walk into any of my Ford or Chevy dealers and test drive a Mustang or Corvette with a basic intake form and my license.
macfail@reddit
I think that is typical domestic vs import dealership behavior. One time I wandered into a Toyota dealership to look at Tacomas. The salesperson basically said "its a Tacoma, it sells itself" and walked away - did not offer to let me sit in one, let alone test drive it. Later on, I went to look at a Colorado/Canyon and I was in the drivers seat within 20 minutes.
SnooChipmunks2079@reddit
I think Toyota dealers have gotten really full of themselves. I wandered one a couple months ago for a good twenty minutes and nobody said a word to me.
Stopped by VW, Mazda and Hyundai the same day and was immediately greeted.
aprtur@reddit
I've noticed this is a really tricky balance - some people like to be left alone until they ask for help, and others encourage the interaction. A close friend of mine worked sales for Honda while I worked service and ops, and he always told me that he could never win - people were mad when he engaged, giving him the feeling of being overbearing or hawkish, and others were angry when they were left to walk the lot and browse. I don't envy salespeople at all.
SnooChipmunks2079@reddit
I was wandering the showroom, though, and they didn’t seem busy. It was a weekday afternoon.
aprtur@reddit
That's totally fair, but what I was getting at holds up when it comes to the showroom - if the salespeople have been burned enough, they will stop engaging. Not saying you should have had zero interaction (I would have thought the front desk would at least call out to you and ask if you need help), but I could see where the salespeople could leave someone be.
Guac_in_my_rarri@reddit
No, I'm in a pretty nice area as was all the dealers. This particular dealer had a kickback scheme going they later admitted too. Even then, a bunch of dealers around me wouldn't allow a test drive. Just dumb imo.
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
That is wild lol
Guac_in_my_rarri@reddit
Oh it was whole thing. I wanted to buy that WRX and the whole situation felt slimy. State AG agreed and long story short: a Subaru outback shouldn't cost 80 or 90k over the life of a loan when promotional interest rate is 1.99%.
Substantial-Oil7569@reddit
That kind of thing is so dealer-dependent. My local one practically threw me the keys 30 seconds after stepping foot on the lot. I think they tend to be pretty enthusiast-focused though because they stock lots of WRXs, BRZs, and Wilderness editions. Sold for MSRP too.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
Probably because they can't move any of those cars and know someone looking to test drive one is much more likely to buy
F50Guru@reddit
I’m actually test driving a BRZ and WRX today at my local dealer. I guess it depends. Even a different dealership offered me to test drive one.
We’ll see if I like it or not.
jasonmoyer@reddit
There's nothing comparable performance wise that's AWD with a manual. And if you don't need AWD, you can get a BRZ which has the same performance as a WRX, is an actual 2+2 sports car, but is also priced like a Civic SI.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
Yeah you dont understand why the WRX and BRZ are failing lol
jasonmoyer@reddit
Are they? Subaru is going to keep making them forever, just like Mazda will always make Miatas. Because they sell more of them than any enthusiast car that isn't American muscle.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
Subaru will likely have sold less than 12k WRX this year, and the GR86 outsells the BRZ 4:1, is that not failing? The Elantra N are BOOMING in the sales department this year, and Honda is having no issue moving Civic SI's, enthusiassts with the budget are not buying a WRX, they are buying a Type R, Z, GRC, sales numbers on those cars arent meant to be giant.
Captain_Alaska@reddit
Even with Subaru's significant sales decline the WRX is still outselling the GR Corolla, Golf GTi & R, Nissan Z, GR86 and BRZ.
Honda doesn't break out sales of either the Si or the CTR from the rest of the Civic lineup.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
The difference is every single GRC, Z, N, SI, CTR, and GR86 being built is getting sold, there is plenty of WRX rotting on lots right now that have no indication of moving. Also the BRZ isn't any better, the GR86 Is outselling it like 4:1, it literally has no reason to exist at this point
zerosystem03@reddit
You do realize 3 to 4 GR86s are built for every 1 BRZ right? That was the deal since gen 1. Go back to the frs/brz years. BRZ was always lower volume as part of the agreement
randeus@reddit
That’s definitely not the for the Z. They’re still on lots.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
There's not an excessive amount of them out there though, and sales have been growing for the Z this year, Nissan isn't having an issue moving them when the dealerships aren't asking 10k over sticker
Captain_Alaska@reddit
My guy the GTi, R, GR86 and BRZ are all down on sales so far this year. The Z is the only car I can find sales figures for that's actually improved sales in 2025 and that was never a high bar to begin with considering they only sold 2175 of them in 2024.
franzn@reddit
It feels like Subaru doesn't want to sell BRZs. Years ago when I ended up with a Miata the Subaru dealer drove the BRZ 5 minutes out and "let me" drive it back. This time they only had one in the showroom which understandably I couldn't drive unless I was buying it that day. Both times they were really trying to talk me into a WRX over the BRZ.
golden_glorious_ass@reddit
Not sure why you're comparing the 4:1 gr86/brz ratio when toyota has a say on how many gr86 and brz gets made. toyota is literally the biggest car company in the world where a subaru might as well be a pop and mom shop compared to them.
Toyota is around 250B on market cap while Subaru is hovers around 30B (plus toyota owns 20% of Subaru).
Lower_Kick268@reddit
You're coming up with reasons to justify Subaru vehicles not selling well, have you considered maybe it's because the GR86 is $4000 cheaper for the exact same car?
golden_glorious_ass@reddit
https://imgur.com/a/ns1GeVZ
That's a from autotrader canada. 2026 brz ts is $42900cad While a 2025 hakone is is at $41000cad and a 2025 A/T gr86 is at $41000cad. And that's just the listing price. So you can do what you want with that info.
base 2026 brz 38400cad vs base 2025 gr86 38400 if you want the lowest trim for each.
Maybe do some actual research instead of repeating ai slop.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
I'm not Canadian, in the US a base GR86 starts at 30.8k, a base BRZ starts at 33.2k, my bad it's a $2400 difference. The GR86 is actually nicer on the inside too, and the suspension tuning is better, there is literally no reason to buy a BRZ over an 86
golden_glorious_ass@reddit
Have you ever done a test drive on a brz/gr86 or is this something that you got from ai slop?
Clip_Clippington@reddit
In contrast, I think I've seen way more WRXes compared to Elantra Ns around here. They simply don't exist, and it's probably the one car in that category that's very out of sight, out of mind to me here on Long Island.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
There's also a lot more WRX out there, sure the N will outsell it this year, but there's like 50k WRX of this gen out there vs maybe 15-20k Elantra N
Astramael@reddit
GR Corolla is within a few thousand, readily available, can be had below MSRP, AWD, manual, and has significantly better performance.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
Seriously, and they're probably equally reliable to the WRX lol, neither are reliable.
Astramael@reddit
I haven’t seen any significant reliability issues with the GRC. Believe the worst issue so far is likely a bad batch of clutches in the 2023 model year.
Scary_One_2452@reddit
A 1.5t making 300hp is the long term reliability issue lol
Astramael@reddit
You’re going to need evidence to back that up. The engine has won every WRC2 season it’s entered. It’s not even a 1.5, you didn’t even bother to get your facts straight before fabricating wild speculation.
Scary_One_2452@reddit
I'm talking long term reliability where any heavily boosted small displacement engine is under a ton of stress. What is that extra 0.1 litre going to do in terms reducing mechanical strain? 300hp is the realm of a 3.5 litre.
_The_Real_Sans_@reddit
We had 300hp from 3.5 liters in NA minivans from 20 years. I'd like to think 20 years of engineering and the car being a little more performance oriented than a minivan could bring us more power per liter...
Astramael@reddit
What does “stress” mean? That’s not a thing in combustion chamber engineering.
I guess turbo diesel engines are unreliable, so sad. Oh wait, that’s not necessarily true at all. Weird how physics don’t back up anything you are saying.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
I've seen people have issues with the engines blowing and catching fire on them, even not pushing the car it can happen. That shit scares me, idk how common it is, but it's happening to them.
Astramael@reddit
This happened to 2 people.
What do you want the warranty to do after the insurance company pays out because the car burnt down?
Toyota has not announced this.
jasonmoyer@reddit
And yet Subaru sells over twice as many WRX's for some reason. So is the GR Corolla failing?
Astramael@reddit
GRC produces 8,000 units per year, or so. Also I think that demand is actually getting weaker for the GRC yes.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
The GRC is also kept to a limited production run to insure they are all sold and a profit is made on them, there are orders to be filled on the GRC, the sales numbers on the GRC are strong and growing. There is nobody trying to order a WRX, the sales are falling quickly on the WRX, dealerships have plenty unable to move. You need to look at the bigger picture to understand why WRX are failing and the Corolla GR isnt
jpcoop@reddit
A base 2 series would be similar in performance, way nicer on the inside, and somehow get 8 more MPG.
Heck my M340i (with full time AWD and way more power) gets 7 more MPG than a base WRX.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
The only thing about the 2 series is the maintenance costs long term, that being said I don't think they're less reliable than a WRX, just costs more when you do have to service it. Insurance on a 2 series is probably actually cheaper than a WRX, that wouldn't shock me one bit
Siguard_@reddit
insurance is a big factory as well between a 2 series vs wrx
Lower_Kick268@reddit
Eh not really, WRX are notoriously expensive to insure, the 2 series is probably actually less than it.
Siguard_@reddit
A 2025 WRX was 300 month roughly for myself. I just was shopping for a new car and a M2 was 610 a month for myself, and a Golf R was 194.
jpcoop@reddit
An M2 costs almost twice as much as a 230i. Almost twice as fast too. Not the same car at all.
Siguard_@reddit
Fair. I was also looking an X2M and that was 545 a month and the regular x2 was 490. Its not cheap regardless of what you buy
Kentx51@reddit
I used to drive an STI and quickly learned expensive parts don't care what brand the car is.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
I got some STI parts for my business to sell, I will confirm they are very expensive for the STI specific ones.
CharacterMedium558@reddit
Sti uses bespoke parts/engines. It may be an exception. Similar problem with SS 1LE, Type R, etc.
jpcoop@reddit
It’s true, the 2 is probably a bit more expensive to maintain. No manual either. But the interior and tech are a lot nicer than the WRX.
If you’re worried about maintenance costs there are other options out there, like an Elantra N. And that one still has a manual.
I just don’t see the current WRX as a good value these days. Too many better competitors out there.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
That's what I'm saying, there's no reason to buy a WRX vs all the competition out there, cheaper cars that are equal or faster, slightly more expensive ones that are way nicer and faster, it has no reason to exist anymore
WarCrimeGaming@reddit
I’m strongly considering one if the Supra doesn’t work out
DerBootsMann@reddit
subaru is never about fuel economy and .. oil economy as well !
losinator501@reddit
Damn few years ago when I was looking at like a 2023? 2024? it was 37.7k for the Limited!
Lower_Kick268@reddit
It really is, i have no idea who Subaru thinks is going to buy a WRX for 37.7k, but there aint gonna be many. Costs gotta come down on them or they gotta kill the car off, whichever comes first, I love the WRX but id be at like 30k to care to own one.
cornlip@reddit
You’d rather have a Nissan? Okay…
Lower_Kick268@reddit
Whats wrong with a Nissan? And dont say CVT because the Z doesnt even have a CVT, tell me, whats wrong with Nissan?
cornlip@reddit
Wasn’t the company really struggling with a $4.5B net loss last year? I wasn’t gonna say anything about CVT. Those all suck, anyway. I think the Z is a cool car. I just don’t think Nissan is the way to go.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
Nissan is gonna be fine as long as the Japanese government exists, the last thing they will do is allow Nissan to die. Nissan makes a good car nowadays too, people don't even consider them because of the CVT disaster 10 years ago even though they're pretty solid cars now, even with the new CVT'S.
DerBootsMann@reddit
nissan is fine , they even used to make a gt-r back then ..
RiftHunter4@reddit
Reminder: the Limited in the current WRX is CVT only. I rarely saw them late last year. It was mostly base trims with some options.
kconfire@reddit
+1
xamdou@reddit
Not only does the Elantra N blow the WRX out of the water in terms of performance, you also have the option for a proper DCT instead of a CVT.
For people that aren't looking for a manual, that is a huge selling point for a sports sedan.
I absolutely love Subarus, and I really do like the way the VB looks. However, the alternatives in its price point have far better options.
All wheel drive is nice, but it's really not a huge requirement unless you genuinely live out in the middle of nowhere.
_yeen@reddit
GTIs are about the same price and are FWD yet there selling fine.
mantenner@reddit
Sorry in what world does an Elantra N smoke a WRX at anything?
Lower_Kick268@reddit
The N is faster than the WRX in both a straight line and on a track, the N has more track oriented features included, is more efficient than the WRX, is cheaper than the WRX, it is the better car. The only thing the WRX had going for it is AWD at this point
mantenner@reddit
Surprising news to me.
hurricanePopsicles@reddit
In the 2025 Lightning lap the $34k Elantra N was 4 seconds faster than thhe $47k WRX TS at VIR
CharacterMedium558@reddit
A civic Si performance is quite a bit worse. I agree with the Elantra N being a much better vehicle. I never said I would buy a WRX or I thought it was great.
Also not a single person is paying MSRP for WRX. They've been going a few thousand under sticker for years now. One of the best new performance oriented vehicles to be able to buy during COVID. Only one car that could easily be had with deals.
Big_Smooth_CO@reddit
Never met a WRX I wanted to buy. I did have a rally build in AN 04 STI. That was fun as fuck. Till it wasn’t.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
I don’t mean to rant but as a side note: I am so tired of people bringing up “adjusted for inflation” as a justification for anything.
You’re taking one data point while leaving out dozens of others. Why don’t we talk about wage growth in comparison to inflation? Or what about the costs of other things going up that may negate you having any money left for an enthusiast vehicle?
It’s kind of hard to justify buying an enthusiast vehicle when your rent increases or food prices leave you with very little left over. I mean there’s a reason 8+ year auto loans are now a common thing.
zerosystem03@reddit
Lol wage growth vs CPI is too nuanced of a topic for reddit. Wages generally outpace inflation. Lots of data and analyses out there. Some sectors may lag behind others, so that's one factor. Housing prices have exploded relative to wages. Historically where housing might have been 5x the median salary at the highest, it's something like 10-12x now. But housing has nothing to do with car prices. Car manufacturers dont set car prices based on living costs. That makes no sense
WheresTheSauce@reddit
Considering wages have exceeded inflation (which is weighted to account for the greater increases in things like housing) maybe you should rethink this argument
InvasionOfScipio@reddit
Okay now add the costs of healthcare.
WheresTheSauce@reddit
It’s already included and weighted in the aggregate percentage that is inflation.
InvasionOfScipio@reddit
The “measure” of inflation is artificially assigned and weighted based on perceived importance. It is not an ACTUAL costs of goods.
Skensis@reddit
The funny thing is that cars are one of the few things that really have tracked well with inflation over time, there are some outliers here and there but the trend is that cars really have increased a lot while getting safer and more feature rich.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
I don’t need to rethink anything.
WheresTheSauce@reddit
Wow. That is genuinely an impressively manipulative way to frame the data. That frames the entire thing around the massive (and brief) peak in 2020 and ignores the whole picture.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
It absolutely is not a manipulative way.
You need to look at the entire picture.
WheresTheSauce@reddit
I’m sorry but are you being serious right now? You tell me I need to look at “the entire picture” and link to something which is only looking at the last 4 years vs. my link which includes the last 45?
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
Yeah I guess I’m living in fantasyland like millions of others who turned out to vote on Tuesday because the economy is so great and the wages we all have is enough to buy us everything. Right?
WheresTheSauce@reddit
Sincerely, grow up. Maybe when faced with the reality that you have been misled by propaganda maybe you could look inward instead of lashing out emotionally
Fallline048@reddit
Inflation-adjusted wages are right around 2019 levels, and have been for well over a year. Enthusiast cars are definitely out of the budget for most people, but that has always been true.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
Wages still haven’t caught up to all of the inflation we have experienced. Plus while wages may have caught up in the last year, tar. and other factors threaten that moving forward.
Fallline048@reddit
First off, Q1/Q2 2021 are poor benchmarks because they are still on the tail end of the COVID labor market. Second, not sure where you’re quoting but it’s out of date. Median real weekly earnings in Q2 2025 were $376 (in 1982 dollars), compared to $373 in Q1 2021 and $371 in Q2 2021.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
You guys keep looking at a snapshot instead of the broader picture.
This is the whole picture.
Fallline048@reddit
That’s literally a smaller timeframe than I provided in my link lol. Also what a terribly misleading chart, since it makes it look like real wages are so much smaller when really all that matters is their distance from 0, which even by that chart is very small.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
So according to you, everyone is doing a lot better and has more income than ever before so there is nothing to complain about? Is that what you’re suggesting?
Fallline048@reddit
I’m saying that inflation adjusted wages are roughly on par with pre-pandemic levels. And yes, also that they are, with the exception of during covid, higher than ever before.
Not that there’s nothing to complain about. Scarcity isn’t magically gone, poverty is still a huge issue, housing costs represent a higher than ever percentage of household expenditures, and so on and so forth.
The thing is that many, though not all of those issues were issues in the past, and many of the issues that are new are not necessarily about recovery from inflation in general and more about specific issues with high-impact markets (like housing, which suffers from a supply crisis).
But yes, on the whole we are better off than before. Whether or not it feels that way is a different issue.
As it pertains to sports cars, I say again: they were always luxury goods. The perception that they were not is driven by a decade or two of cheap used sports cars. We’re dealing with some serious rose tinted glasses here.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
Being roughly on par is not the same as being on par and as I stated: you have to also look at the forward aspect now. There are economic indicators that are showing that inflation is ticking back upwards and we don’t even have accurate data from the last two months to see if the trend is going in the opposite direction.
I would also be questioning any data coming from government sources since we know that this admin is willing to fudge numbers to make things look better than they are.
Fallline048@reddit
Sure but now you’re shifting the goalposts. And as for on-par… “roughly” in this case breaks in the opposite direction from what you claim. Real wages are as of Q2 2025, higher than the highest pre-pandemic quarter.
As for the future, I absolutely agree that there are concerning indicators but that’s not what you claimed.
And as for data integrity, the Fed is as-yet uncompromised (another point in favor of its quasi-governmental nature), and I can attest that none of the prior data in these charts has changed, as I have tracked them consistently across multiple administrations.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
It’s not shifting goalposts at all. I very much stated several comments back that I was also looking at the current months and moving forward.
And if inflation matched wages then it wouldn’t have been such a major issue in exit polling as we saw it. People aren’t just complaining about one market sector, they’re complaining about the costs of everything going up well past where affordability is at.
Fallline048@reddit
It’s a shifting of the goalposts compared to what you initially were claiming and responding to, which is the claim that wages hadn’t kept up with inflation when, with the exception of the period of mid 2021 to mid 2022, they have.
As for your point about polling, you are quite simply wrong. People thinking something is true does not make it so.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
Or maybe just maybe the data isn’t capturing what is actually happening accurately. Did you ever think about that?
Also I mentioned in my original comment about more people taking out 8+ year loans yet you seem to be quiet about that one.
Fallline048@reddit
The way we calculate inflation measures is quite transparent. Sure they are not perfect; no aggregate measure can be, but for what we are trying to measure, I am fairly confident in them - far more confident than I am in popular vibes. Economic sentiment is a poor measure of economic reality, especially compared to actual empirical methodologies.
As for other factors that are affecting sentiment, I’ve discussed these already. Housing is already captured by CPI, but given the compositional effects people are experiencing as a result, it is sure to affect sentiment, and it is a very real problem.
As for 8+ year loans… ok? Doesn’t change anything we’re discussing.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
It does change what we are discussing. The increase in 8+ year car loans isn’t just a coincidence. If wages were truly matching inflation, then the higher rates of longer car loans wouldn’t be happening.
We are discussing affordability. If things were as rosy as you say they are then consumer sentiment wouldn’t be at a low point and all of these other factors wouldn’t be occurring.
Fallline048@reddit
Yeah, I simply don’t think your premise is reliable. You’d need a lot more than vibes and one particular knock-on indicator to make the claim you’re making. Causal inference, especially with regard to macroeconomics is simply not as simple as you claim.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
There is absolutely no onus on me. Your problem is that if it isn’t in certain data points that you consider accurate then it’s not true. Instead of actually considering that the data maybe isn’t that accurate or isn’t getting the full picture.
Again, if you were right then there wouldn’t be as much complaints about inflation as there currently is, nor would there be more individuals taking out longer car loans just to be able to afford a new vehicle.
You still have yet to address why there are more 8+ year car loans. Why won’t you answer that?
Fallline048@reddit
You’ve gone from making concrete claims to (when provided evidence to the contrary) claiming that any evidence that doesn’t support your intuition must be flawed. Classic.
Again, no, that is not necessarily true. You make a claim that something implies something else, the onus is on you to prove it. You haven’t. People in general have very poor intuition for things like inflation, and one particular phenomenon is insufficient to make such an extraordinary claim.
And I won’t because I don’t know. And unlike you, I do not make claims about things for which I have insufficient evidence.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
You actually didn’t prove anything because you made a claim that just because one year of wage growth negates 4 previous years of inflation outpacing it by a higher amount. Which in those 4 years people would’ve been making purchases and taking out loans that potentially set themselves up for an affordability crisis.
We haven’t even talked about the people that paid over MSRP for vehicles that are underwater on their loans right now. In fact the percentage of people upside down on their car loans is at a high point as well.
But whatever you have to tell yourself to make you think that you won an argument that you couldn’t even finish.
aprtur@reddit
To be fair to mans who you blocked, this is irrelevant to affordability and income growth. This is completely a problem of people impulsively buying something outside of their means, or possibly FOMO.
strongmanass@reddit
Every time the word "inflation" is mentioned on this sub there's a very predictable and tedious back and forth about how wages haven't kept up, except they have and it's only a couple of variables like housing and medical costs that outpace general inflation, well then surely the BLS must be wrong in how they calculate inflation, well then do you have a better way, of course not because we're not the world's best economists.
charlemange77@reddit
yes were all broke but these cars are what we love
CharacterMedium558@reddit
I guess the point I'm trying to make is, even though the medium wage hasn't kept up with inflation, neither has the WRX pricing when comparing similar specs over the years.
The bigger issue is disposable income has decreased because everything else has increased so much more.
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count_nuggula@reddit
Before I got my GRC, I test drove a bunch of vehicles, including a WRX. I could have gotten a Limited trim at a shade under 32k. I didn’t go with it because of how it drove but the price made me consider pretty heavily
aprtur@reddit
I was debating it, also - there were some fantastic deals to be had. Unfortunately, there were a number of factors that pushed me away, but I've had a soft spot for the WRX for a long time. If the VA interior got paired with the current chassis, and they painted the plastic cladding, it's very possible I would have overlooked the other issues and bought one.
count_nuggula@reddit
I had a hatch WRX before this so I understand lol. For me, it was a mix of the plastic cladding, tablet for infotainment, and the trans felt dull and lifeless
Etchii@reddit
I still have my 14 wrx i purchased new, i service at the dealerships and they give crosstreks, outbacks, and i currently have a legacy while i get my clutch master cylinder replaced.
While the inside feel is upgraded q
aprtur@reddit
Yeah, that interior on the current car is, IMO, awful. I really liked the VA interior, so it felt like a dramatic fall from before. Super cool that you had a hatch - having driven a few of that generation STi hatch, they're a really fun car. Plasma blue "wide fender" hatch? Yes please.
count_nuggula@reddit
The one and only! Sometimes I miss it but don’t miss the maintenance
isaac99999999@reddit
The wrx may not have kept up with inflation, but its performance hasn't kept up with inflation either. It's heavier with not any more power. A base mustang is a much better car and starts a 32k, which is roughly the same price as a brz. More powerful, more reliable, i havent seen the interior but its probably better on the mustang. Subaru dominated their market for years and then just sat and did NOTHING.
CharacterMedium558@reddit
And I totally agree!!! Elantra N is also a beast.
WRX and Si are both disappointinvg
RiftHunter4@reddit
*was
"Tear Riffs" ruined WRX pricing.
aprtur@reddit
Getting rid of the base trim is a bigger factor, TBH.
Kurt805@reddit
Neither have wages.
carguymt@reddit
Median wages have outpaced inflation since the '80s. This is an objective fact and is not debatable.
CharacterMedium558@reddit
Average income increased over the decades. Medium income less so, but it still increased. Although wages haven't kept up, the WRX has still remained pretty affordable until this year where they aced the base trim.
Op3rat0rr@reddit
You’re not alone OP. I also think the WRX is properly priced for current inflation. People aren’t buying it because of the new design. It’s grown on me, but I feel like good design shouldn’t have to grow on you. Same thing with food or movies!
CharacterMedium558@reddit
Yup. All that plastic makes it not as attractive. Also the touchscreen inside feels like a decade old haha.
All they had to do was body color match the plastic pieces, add a louder Exhuast, and an optional STI style wing. I bet it would have gotten more attention.
Rand0m_Spirit_Lover@reddit
For all the reasons you mentioned, I really tried to like the WRX and tried to talk myself into buying one. Dealership near me was constantly offering 3-4k off all trim levels and always had plenty of manuals in stock, so it seemed like a great deal and the perfect car for me. Test drove them multiple times, and each time walked away just completely underwhelmed, not necessarily thinking it was overpriced, but that it simply wasn’t a fun/engaging car at all.
ADVICECAREER@reddit
Lol driver error. U picked the forte gt over a Wrx?
ricketyracketry@reddit
Cool! My income hasn't adhusted for inflation though so in that context, still too much money.
AmericanExcellence@reddit
this sub seems to have a congenital inability to understand that wages not keeping up with inflation is the very definition of inflation.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
You don’t understand what congenital means
The measurement of inflation has nothing to do with wages
Fallline048@reddit
Well, no that’s not at all the definition of inflation, which is simply an increase in aggregate nominal prices. You’re describing definition of falling real-wages.
CouncilmanRickPrime@reddit
Yeah we intentionally always have inflation. But there actually was a point when wages kept up with inflation so I'm not sure why they think it isn't possible.
Fallline048@reddit
I agree. As I said, real wages have in fact done so since about 2022, and have in fact surpassed the last pre-pandemic quarter. They’re still down compared to early-mid pandemic, but that’s not a matter of inflation as much as it is a function of distorted labor market composition during the shutdown.
12-34@reddit
No it's not.
Inflation is general price increases (usual expressed via a tracked basket of goods).
You're referring to "real wages", which is NOT the same as inflation. It's about wages in relation to inflation.
Inflation is inflation, and it's pretty funny when someone laments the whole sub for being wrong while making econ 101 mistakes.
CouncilmanRickPrime@reddit
He used the word congenital so obviously he must be right!
/s but yeah we have real world examples of when wages actually did keep up with inflation, so not sure why they think real wages falling is part of inflation.
WarCrimeGaming@reddit
It’s really alarming. I’ve spoken to people who’ve worked at a company for 8-10 years not knowing their raises were eliminated by inflation and they have the same buying power damn near.
Fallline048@reddit
In particular, people have a hard time believing that their raises are actually inflation (in the labor market) and not necessarily something they earned above and beyond their previous compensation.
maxlax02@reddit
Yeah dude, and at $30k it was a deal. And you could have bought them for $30k just 2 years ago.
They’re closer to $40k now. That’s the problem.
CharacterMedium558@reddit
Well because not enough people bought the base model! On the used market, premium models seem to be the most popular.
Also not a single person is paying MSRP for these today. You can still find discounts when shopping around. I'd imagine snagging one for 35-36K OTD is far from impossible.
Electrical_Top656@reddit
it doesn't work like that tho
Big_Smooth_CO@reddit
Both are way higher priced than they should be for their level of build and performance.
Independent-Win-4187@reddit
There is a reason the twins are one of the most tracked/raced cars today.
Big_Smooth_CO@reddit
Well as someone that owns race cars and races. I can tell you I have never seen more than one or two of either type racing. Then again it’s only been 15 years of it pretty much across the country. Then again I may not know what I am talking about. lol
Big_Smooth_CO@reddit
Btw the most tracked model of car is the Miata. I believe it’s followed by the 3 series.
ExpensiveBookkeeper3@reddit
Yup. The WRX was an Icon of the 90's/2000. Having over 250 hp back then was a big thing. It was a monster. It was faster than a Mustang GT and Camero SS from a 0-60. It was awesome.
Then they just sat back and did nothing for over 25 years and now it gets intimidated by Camerys.
It was my dream car. In 2010's I was waiting for them to have 400 hp. Now they need 500 hp. And they need to keep the price the same.
There use to be a saying sports cars can be "cheap, fast, and reliable, but you can only pick two". Well with the WRX you get zero.
Thanks for ruining my dream Subaru, fuvk u.
happyevil@reddit
I was with you for most of that until the horsepower figures.
No one is getting 400-500hp for <$45k. The Mustang GT pricing starts where the WRX ends and it is solid power but still not 500hp.
300-350hp would be fine in a car that size and match the many other fast turbo "super hatches" in its price range. That would put it in the same range as the Ecoboost Mustang (which is it's real Mustang price competitor).
An STI probably needs 325-400 these days if they build one though, depending on price I suppose.
RAMBIGHORNY@reddit
HP/Performance is definitely a huge part of it. WRX was iconic in the 90-00s when American V8s were still kind of in an awkward teenage phase before the modern muscle car horsepower wars
happyevil@reddit
Right but the problem isn't that it's not 400-500hp...
The problem is that ~270hp it has now is perhaps too little but in no world does it need 400hp to regain what it had. Also the price would be a minimum of $10k more.
zerosystem03@reddit
Honestly I think subaru screwed themselves a bit with the wrx GT and tS being a half ditched replacement for an sti. They loaded those trims with goodies nobody cares about at the price range. The so-called S210 is a travesty compared to what the S Line used to be. At wrx tS prices, I would pass on AWD and get a Type R, or go for the premium GRC. If they follow through with the STI I'm sure they would axe the GT and tS trims on the wrx so there's no price overlap on paper. Suppose the STI would start at $50k. I dont know what a viable power figure would be. Maybe somewhere in the 330-340hp range if it wants to be competitive. But I dont see subaru pushing numbers that high
AdventurousDress576@reddit
The WRX should have about the same power as the current RS3 / A45, that's the competition.
happyevil@reddit
That's a complete pipe dream. The RS3 is $65k...
The A45 is the equivalent of over $85k (converted, there's no US MSRP). Could compare to the CLA 45, which is also $65k though.
Those are a clear tier above the WRX and exactly my point. RS3 is 400hp, add $20k-30k to a WRX and it's yours. Yeah you're paying extra for the luxury interior, fine, shave off $10k... But, these are not competitors.
The WRX competes with the Golf GTI, Honda Civic Si, Hyundai Elantra N, and maybe cars like the Ecoboost mustang if you want to branch away from 4 doors a bit.
Even STI didn't compete there. That compared to "hyper hatches" like Golf R, Focus RS, and entry level luxury sport models like the Audi S3.
AdventurousDress576@reddit
When the STi came out is had 280hp, the contemporary Civic type R had 185hp, and the Golf R32 came out 5 years later with 241hp.
Subaru is still stuck at 1990s level of power, when it should be halfway between a Golf R and an M3.
happyevil@reddit
The earliest STI we're much more limited so it's harder to compare, that said if you convert the price to USD and adjust for inflation they were over $60k. Even the first more widely available models in the early 2000's would have been almost $55k when adjusted for inflation.
The same generation Civic Type R would have been ~$35k adjusted and was a different class of vehicle.
The same year R32 was ~$50k adjusted and is a more direct comparison.
WRX has never competed with M3 even in those days. An E46 M3 had ~340hp and a sub 5sec 0-60. Better interior of course and it's price was much higher at >$80k adjusted for inflation.
The WRX was always a bargain for performance. It put down lap times greater than the sum of it's parts and of course there's the rally heritage to boot... but it was never a raw numbers king if you want it to compete at the RS3 level it's probably going to cost at least $60k.
Ftpini@reddit
The WRX does not need 500 hp. 350 would be perfect. The STI however does need to have 500 hp. It’s funny I was the same way but I never bought a WRX because the 14 mustang GT was a better car for the money. Then this year I wanted an STI but they don’t exist and the WRX is a turd these days. I don’t understand what went so wrong at Subaru after 2010.
ExpensiveBookkeeper3@reddit
No, 500 is too much. I actually agree with 350.
Ftpini@reddit
For a WRX sure, especially at its current price point. But for an STI which will definitely eclipse 50k, it needs 500hp to be relevant.
xamdou@reddit
I would disagree, even after owning a 2021 STI.
I felt that the power it made was adequate for the price and chassis.
I think bumping it up closer to 350 would be fine, but I don't think it really needs more than that.
It's not a car for drag racing and I didn't buy mine expecting to annihilate people in the quarter mile.
I bought it because it was practical and usable every single day of the year. Giving it excessive horsepower would start to make it less practical and usable every day of the year.
I'll play the contrary take and argue that I think the car needs to be built to be a better bargain as a "one car garage" sort of car. Ergo, it needs a competent automatic transmission to compete with the Golf R, Elantra N, GR Corolla, etc.
They seem to be heading in that direction by showing the new concept as a hatchback, which was my biggest gripe with the VA STI.
Ftpini@reddit
I agree the WRX should be a one car garage sort of car, but not for the STI. Its always been put up as a purpose built off road capable rally car. Its doesn’t need to be practical or get good fuel economy and it certainly doesn’t need a great automatic. Though I would agree putting the CVT in it was a trash idea that never should have happened.
xamdou@reddit
The consumer-based STIs were never rally cars. Every single STI sold at a dealer would need considerable suspension modifications to properly compete as a rally car in amateur events.
Also, in today's economy, it's quite imperative for a car like this to truly be practical.
That's a huge reason why the big "sports" crossovers and SUVs have been selling so well. They offer the torque and power to blast down the highway, the space to handle Costco runs and all of the kid's sports events, and the comfort to mindlessly turn into a commuter.
I genuinely believe that there is an untapped market for performance sedans and hatches because nobody is making them well enough to bring over consumers on the edge.
Ftpini@reddit
You might be right, but the measure of that market is still probably under 10-20k units per year. It simply doesn't have the scale without huge margins. The only reason we still have the Mustang GT is because they also put that engine in the F150. They couldn't overcome the R&D costs if they were only selling it in the car. Subaru could make a bonkers fast STI and then put the same engine in their other cars like Dodge does. Then they might actually get away with the R&D.
If they put out a 350 hp STI at $50k+ its DOA.
GP7onRICE@reddit
They already do that. The Ascent is the same engine as the VB WRX. Just different internals and tuning.
ExpensiveBookkeeper3@reddit
Sure, just don't call it a WRX. That has a meaning.
xamdou@reddit
It doesn't.
Subaru doesn't compete with the WRX in the WRC anymore.
Those days are long gone and it's now 2025. Subaru needs to develop a more competitive product if they want to stay relevant in this segment.
The reality is that the economy is tightening and people are looking for better value across the board. Offering a product that does more will reach more consumers.
B-Diddy@reddit
This is exactly right. You can basically use the Mustang GT as an index for cost and performance since its been in production forever. In the early 2000s, the WRX was about $25k and could do 0-60 in about 5.5s. The Mustang GT of that era was about the same price and 0-60 time.
Today a Mustang GT is slightly more expensive than the WRX, but performs significantly better
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Sudden-Seaweed8498@reddit
This complaint right here is exactly the reason why car manufacturers are leaving the ‘affordable’ enthusiast market. Cost of manufacturing is rising and the target demographic is never satisfied with what manufacturers can offer. I am sad that these cars are disappearing but I blame the market and the ‘car enthusiasts’ that only complain.
instantur@reddit
The WRX only makes sense if you really need AWD.
AcidicQueef@reddit
Wrx also looks hideous
NoctD@reddit
BRZ would be fine with more power - should have been turbo from the start. Top end WRX is almost Golf R territory pricing but not an STI, and a fully loaded Jetta GLI is cheaper than the base WRX.
clownpirate@reddit
While I would never argue against the BRZ getting more power, isn’t the GR86 doing fine in sales with the same power?
NoctD@reddit
Sales are down even more YTD on the GR86 -15.9% vs just -8.3%. Its just that Toyota has a much larger network and GR86 sells in higher quantities. The WRX is a train wreck in comparison to the drop in BRZ sales YOY.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/toyota-cms-media/toyota-pdfs/US%20September%202025%20FINAL.pdf
https://media.subaru.com/pressrelease/2389/subaru-america-reports-october-2025-sales
LanEvo7685@reddit
I also still can't be sure precisely sure what it means that a BRZ more "premium feel" than a 86.
xamdou@reddit
The suspension is slightly softer, which might be leaning toward that.
Also, being able to order it exactly as you want might give that illusion as well.
ryguy32789@reddit
More premium feeling price?
jabroni4545@reddit
Also the wrx is ugly.
AramisSAS@reddit
Its too small fo fit tall people, otherwise I would habe bought one
oskanta@reddit
I fit fine at 6’3 with room to spare in my 86. My dad is 6’6 and also has no problem driving it. It’s pretty spacious inside for a small coupe.
Lower_Kick268@reddit
Cant believe youd be willing to pay 37k for a base WRX, wild
AramisSAS@reddit
I was refering to a brz
Lower_Kick268@reddit
Why would you buy a BRZ over a GR86 though?
AramisSAS@reddit
Yeah, the Subaru Dealers where I live are way more chill than the Toyota ones
Lower_Kick268@reddit
But the car is like 4k more, is the chill factor worth 4k? Could get a midrange GR86 for the price of a base BRZ.
AramisSAS@reddit
Both still cheaper than a Cayman. But tbh, I would have to test drive and compare them in detail, but since I can barely manage to get my right leg past the steering wheel, I havent checked on them in a while
Lower_Kick268@reddit
I would take a used Cayman any day over a BRZ, the GR86 is good because it's cheaper, the BRZ at this point has no reason to exist. It's not nice enough to be a nice car, cheap enough to be a performance bargain, gets undercut by the same car with a different badge that has a nicer interior with better tech. If you want a nice GR86 a cayman is a great alternative
WarCrimeGaming@reddit
The BRZ and GR86 are the same car and the BRZ can be found and ordered cheaper. You can’t order Toyotas and their dealers like to play games. And used Caymans that aren’t super old out of warranty are still going for $75k+.
AnonymousEngineer_@reddit
Next minute on /r/cars: "Subaru doesn't cater to enthusiasts any more and just makes boring crossovers.
Subaru are currently making two enthusiast cars. Hardly anyone is buying them new. And if nobody is buying them, they are going to stop building them - and then there won't be any used ones, either.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
Then perhaps they should have put more effort into them to make them more appealing
strongmanass@reddit
The BRZ has been a favorite for almost 15 years.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
That’s why it’s literally never outsold its Toyota counterpart, right? Because of how favored it is?
zerosystem03@reddit
The fact that the BRZ has never outsold the 86 should be a clue to something. Such as the agreement was that Subaru would build more 86s than BRZs...
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
Link me to that agreement then
zerosystem03@reddit
It's been stated by a spokesperson regarding production numbers. It was also mentioned in one of the many savagegeese videos on the twins. Toyota has at least double the number of subaru dealerships. This should be no surprise
PalmSizedTriceratops@reddit
What do you think they need to do?
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
To cater to the enthusiast market?
Do something interesting and novel with their AWD systems in the WRX. It's bullshit that the best system they currently make is only available in the CVT WRX. Either figure out a way to couple VTD with a manual, or offer DCCD in the WRX. Even bringing back mechanical LSDs to the WRX would be really good, even with the dumpy viscous coupling center diff they use in the 6MT WRX.
Offer offroad-oriented versions of their performance lineup. The WRX is a complete no-brainer, but even a mildly lifted BRZ with some more compliance and mudflaps would be fun, and would make it really distinct from the GR86.
Give us a new model that North American enthusiasts can be excited about. Bring the Levorg here (with a manual, ideally). Turbo the Crosstrek. Bring the STI back. Do an Ascent Wilderness edition. Anything!
Fix the oiling in the FA24 and prove it to the world by setting up a cheap one-make series with the BRZ.
Figure out a new car to re-enter WRC, then sell it as a homologation special.
Literally any one of these things would be extremely cool and interesting to enthusiasts. I have no expectation they'd ever do any of them, but if you're asking me what Subaru could do to counter the "they just make boring crossovers" argument, that's my answer.
handymanshandle@reddit
To point number 3, I have talked about the Outback Wilderness with one of my friends and how I was genuinely considering one when car shopping last year. I would have bought a stick Outback if they offered it. I get why they don't, but a person could dream...
PalmSizedTriceratops@reddit
1 isn't worth the cost when their target customer doesnt care about the slight differences in AWD systems.
2 again isn't worth the cost. The number of people who would buy an "off road brz" is probably in the dozens.
3 Levorg would be cool
4 already exists. The GR86 cup series.
5 not worth the money.
At the end of the day they're a company that needs to be profitable and catering to the very few people who MAY buy something isn't profitable
RealSprooseMoose@reddit
Not to mention the manual take rate of each Subaru model (BRZ & WRX) is well over 80%.
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit
Pretty simple IMO.
The price has increased, and younger people are really struggling in the current economy. I think people still want these cars, but the chances of losing your job, and not being able to find a new one for 6+ months really is keeping people from buying these new cars.
Most of the older person cars are doing fine.
SwiftCEO@reddit
But the price is adjusted for inflation!!/s
gokartninja@reddit
Yeah, but the wages aren't, so enthusiast and hobby markets are struggling because necessities have to come first.
goaelephant@reddit
Great, now adjust my salary for inflation too
Substantial-Oil7569@reddit
I mean, the price is in line with inflation, but wages are not keeping up and the job market is terrible.
Conscious-Food-9828@reddit
Technically, wages have kept up with inflation in most fronts, cars included. Where they haven't kept up is on rental and housing, which is still a core necessity so people have less disposable income in that regard.
Napoleon_Boneherpart@reddit
Yep. Inflation adjusted purchasing power is only down less than 1% even over the entire Covid fiasco, but the children on Reddit don't understand the stratification of the economy. Poor people used to just make do with their earnings, but now they've been given a voice on the internet, and believe they're owed whatever car they see on their TikTok reels; super vocal about it too. No... You just go drive a Versa for 17k. That's it. Don't think about the WRX.
ggtsu_00@reddit
The price increases are the CAUSE of inflation. People don't realize inflation is merely a measurement of collective price increases. Prices don't go up because of inflation, price increases IS the inflation.
Saying "x is more expensive because of inflation" is a nonsensical statement. It's like saying "it's raining outside because the ground is wet".
SwiftCEO@reddit
Which is exactly why that statement is largely useless when it comes to talking about why the car isn’t selling
phuk-nugget@reddit
The WRX also only takes premium, which means it’s expensive AF to daily drive
erix84@reddit
My Si takes premium and I daily it.... I can drive like an idiot and still get 30mpg+ though.
TrptJim@reddit
Yeah it's not so much a big deal if you are already sipping fuel. The ND Miata needs Premium also but I can get over 40mpg with the top up.
At 20mpg I imagine you would feel the hurt bigger and more frequently.
Substantial-Oil7569@reddit
VBs can run on 87 actually, but why anyone would buy an expensive, sporty car to do that is beyond me.
I get a little over 20 mpg city in this car shifting at 3k most of the time.
Skensis@reddit
Also, in the grand scheme of car cost (insurance/maintenance/gas) the delta of regular vs premium is like 600/yr if you are driving 12k miles and getting 20mpg.
PalmSizedTriceratops@reddit
Spot on. If people are balking at that small cost they cant afford the car anyways.
PalmSizedTriceratops@reddit
I don't understand the argument that premium vs regular matters in the finances of people buying enthusiasts cars...
If you truly cannot afford 1 dollar a gallon more then maybe you can't afford the car to begin with.
outofdate70shouse@reddit
If you could still get a base model for $30k ish, it’d be the frontrunner for my next car. But right now they’re too expensive.
WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit
90% of young enthusiasts now just drive hot hatches. I see plenty of young people driving GTI's, Elantra N's, Type R's, GR Corolla's which are all more expensive. For whatever reason, nobody will tolerate driving a sports car as their daily anymore. Back in the 90's/00's, tons of people daily drove coupes as their only car.
rome_vang@reddit
Forgot where I saw it, but there was an argument made that in the 80s and 90s there was enough income to buy specialized vehicles:
With the way things are going, the average consumer wants all those things in one vehicle. Maybe two of you can swing it. It’s part of a larger socioeconomic theme that gets over looked.
WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit
But that's my whole argument. Back then those people DID NOT have specialized vehicles. They had an Eclipse, 240SX, Celica as their only car. Daily, sports car, everything. One car. Nobody I knew had the coupe and then a truck/family hauler. They did everything with that car. Even in my family, I grew up in the back of Grand Am's.
It's just that now everyone has been convinced that's "impossible", and they need an SUV to do what people were doing 20 years ago with coupes.
franzn@reddit
This obviously doesn't apply to everyone but rear facing car seats are fucking huge and didn't exist/weren't coming years ago. I make do with one in a polestar 2 / 2015 Prius but it would be impossible with a second kid needing one behind the driver's seat. Kids are in those for 2-4 years I think. There are longer sedans that could possibly work but it's easy to see why larger cars are common. Families upgrading cars when kids come along are going to go with what's available and what meets their needs. Once they have that vehicle they're going keep it for a while and if they upgrade probably keep what they know works.
Ran4@reddit
Nah, that's not it. Most people are buying CUVs and those generally have terrible rear seat room.
Ran4@reddit
Those people were very, very rare...
For every such person there's 50 people with a 90s golf.
not_right@reddit
I think part of it is that SUVs have become so much better and so much more car-like, there are a lot of benefits to having an SUV and not too many downsides.
WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit
You're right I bet this is a big part of it. Especially when so many SUV's now are essentially lifted small cars. And the Macan/Cayenne proved you can make an SUV that doesn't handle like total crap.
rome_vang@reddit
Those that are/were single had the sports cars/coupes. I knew a few myself, it’s exactly as you described. They did everything in those. But once kids and significant others become involved, the coupes are the first to go.
Our experiences seem to differ a little bit. Growing up through adulthood , families (middle class families) i saw them with specialized vehicles similar to what I described previously.
More recently, last decade or two.. it’s where I’ve seen what we see today. Single SUVs doing everything. Or if they had two cars, it’s essentially the gas saver + an SUV.
I’m not convinced it’s people diluting themselves (entirely) that they can’t do stuff in coupes… it’s getting more expensive to have more than one vehicle and if you have to have one vehicle, that’s where I can see where the SUV comes into play.
WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit
>Those that are/were single had the sports cars/coupes. I knew a few myself, it’s exactly as you described. They did everything in those.
I think this is why my argument is that it's more taste driven than it is financially driven. Because now you see young single enthusiasts way more often in a GTI/Elantra N/GR Corolla/Type R which is the same price as an 86/BRZ. And we both agreed it was commonplace to have a couple as your only car if you were single back then. So for the same money, people are not willing to daily drive a sports car as their only vehicle.
I also have to wonder if car seats have driven it. Because are people carrying around so much more stuff now that they suddenly need an SUV vs a sedan/coupe, or just that they think they do.
SireEvalish@reddit
This argument isn't backed by actual data. The number of cars per household has been pretty flat since 1980.
rome_vang@reddit
Didn’t even know BTS tracked that. Thanks for sharing.
Independent-Win-4187@reddit
I’m 24 and own a Miata, it is my second car, and it’s honestly difficult to do stuff if it were my only car.
The GR86 is more livable, my brother has this as his only car.
My friend (also 24) owns a 718 cayman, and a beater 2010 car as his daily. That is also not livable as an only car…
Independent-Win-4187@reddit
Me and my 20y old friends with Miatas, the Twins, Cayman, would love to disagree.
Subatomic_Spooder@reddit
Exactly. As a younger person getting into the job market, living on my own, etc, I would love to have either of these cars. But I can't justify spending much more than maybe 8k on a car to buy it outright, or maybe like a $200/mo car payment, but then I'd be locked in to the car for who knows how many years, and by that time I could need a completely different vehicle, I might have an emergency that wipes my savings, or I might not even have a job. The financial headache just isn't worth it, so I'd rather just save up the little money I have and keep driving my 260k mile Toyota
No-Necessary7135@reddit
> Most of the older person cars are doing fine.
Ahh that's why Honda's bringing out the Prelude now
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit
Maybe your onto something.
TheReaperSovereign@reddit
Bmw is on track for record sales 3 years in a row
There is a wealth gap problem in the US.
pihops@reddit
Police and fines are just too high to enjoy driving these cars one the road , people are giving up on fun cars … it is just not worth the risk these days.
Move on and go play golf ….
Pick up your anxiety pills on the way to the green …
LzTangeL@reddit
BRZ is a high 20k car they are trying to sell for the mid-high 30s
tallon4@reddit
Subaru never offered a “Base” trim this generation and is making it worse by killing off the “Premium” trim that was always a few grand more than the base GR86. Now their cost to entry is $5–6K more than Toyota’s. https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a68058341/2026-subaru-brz-more-expensive/
zerosystem03@reddit
The current base gr86 is equivalent to the "base" (premium) brz. It's different than the first gen where toyota's base models was a slight step down below the lowest trim offering the brz
tallon4@reddit
Ah ok gotcha. I just compared Toyota's and Subaru's websites and you're right—they're almost exactly the same, feature for feature, but the BRZ Premium gets a V-shaped strut tower bar standard whereas the GR Performance Strut Tie Brace is a $640 option on the base GR86.
Any idea why Subaru charges $2K more for the base BRZ over the 86?
zerosystem03@reddit
base GR86 also comes with v bars. The gr strut brace is an additional brace that spans the strut towers and doesnt touch the firewall like the v bars
no real reason for brzs to be more expensive other than they've just always priced subarus to be more expensive even with no major differences this generation. i think the marketing argument is that brzs are more "rare" because the agreement is for subaru to build many more 86s than brzs. personally i think the base 86 has nicer looking cloth seats that have a pattern on them, whereas the base brz is just plain cloth.
The real kicker though is whether you'll run into markups with the toyota dealership, and whatever options you're forced to purchase due to toyota's allocation system. BRZs are also often discounted. So in reality, often times the BRZs will end up being cheaper.
manesag@reddit
Was considering the BRZ before getting the Z, sure the back seat is nice but me personally, I couldn’t justify needing to use 93 on a car with 228hp. That and the engine issues they were having at the start of this gen. WRX I thought of and just…nah.
Born4Nothin@reddit
The brz needs 93??
manesag@reddit
Brz and gr86 require 91/93, yes
Born4Nothin@reddit
That’s some bullshit for a NA 4 banger
manesag@reddit
That is why I own a Z and not a GR86 LMAO
r00000000@reddit
Ye I was surprised by how bad the fuel economy on the 86 was too. It's main competitor, the ND Miata, is much more efficient and only uses 87 gas. But just in my experience I don't feel like this accounts for very many sales lost, I think most people don't care too much about fuel efficiency until it gets really bad like 10-20 mpg.
namesdevil3000@reddit
Come to Canada. We have BRZs and WRXs coming out of our ears here in comparison.
BreweryRabbit@reddit
Bring back the hot hatch.
HankSteakfist@reddit
It's funny how Toyota are the only ones making what could be described as a true hot hatch currently and they make two of them.
The Golf R is a bit too sensible and automatic only, while the Civic Type R is basically the size of a 00s Camry nowadays. The Merc AMG likewise is automatic only and is a bit too pricey to be considered a souped up economy hatch.
The only other candidate would be the Renault Megane RS, but that stopped production last year.
xamdou@reddit
I'd argue that the CTR being manual only is more a limiting factor in today's market than the Golf R being automatic only.
For a genuine single car that can do everything, most consumers would err toward the automatic.
A car like the CTR being manual only is fine for enthusiasts, but when the manufacturer knows their customer base is limited, it also means they will produce less vehicles overall.
Ran4@reddit
The CTR is absurdly expensive. Not a lot of people with that money is buying a Honda.
handymanshandle@reddit
I'd argue this if the Civic Type R was struggling to sell. It's not, to the point where dealers still think they're worth a stupid markup on them. The Golf R going automatic only probably didn't hurt sales much in the US, but I suspect it'll hurt the GTI, a car that people were far more likely to buy with a stick, even if people don't rave about the Golf manuals. Likewise, I don't think having an automatic has helped the WRX much in the States, although from what I understand, it's pretty popular in Japan with the CVT.
I think the biggest example of manuals actually hurting sales would be the Elantra N, where the only market the 6-speed really sells is in the US (I know they're available with a stick in most markets barring Asian markets that aren't South Korea), and even then, dealers are absolutely desperate to offload them because nobody wants them anymore. The manual's numbers look awful on paper compared to the DCTs, which puts a lot of people off; meanwhile the DCTs are selling far more rapidly at this point.
xamdou@reddit
The inverse sales between the WRX and Elantra N come down to the fact that one of the transmission options is simply an afterthought.
For the WRX, the CVT is just carried over from Subaru's other models. It fits, so they can offer it.
For the Elantra N, the car was clearly designed around the DCT (much like the GTI and Golf R have been for the past decade). The manual just isn't good enough and honestly, I don't think it fits the character of the car.
The Type R isn't struggling to sell because it is not a high volume vehicle. Every single one they build will sell, but they won't build many of them. Whereas the WRX, the GTI, and the Elantra N will ultimately have larger production numbers by the end of their lifecycle. Those three are designed to cater to a wider audience, which is why they have options.
Rand0m_Spirit_Lover@reddit
i20N hatch, or did Hyundai kill that one off? Is there a i30N hatch available in any markets?
handymanshandle@reddit
i20 N and i30 N hatch still exists in Australia AFAIK.
ChrisTosi@reddit
FL5 feels like a boat, especially compared to the previous generation. It's just inches but you can definitely tell when driving it
No-Necessary7135@reddit
Cupra Leon?
FlyingYankee118@reddit
The Golf R is also almost 50k and is very much in new or lightly used M240i or used M340i range
count_nuggula@reddit
I tell people all the time that the GRC is the WRX that Subaru should be making
Astramael@reddit
The CTR does feel huge to drive in comparison, but it’s also a liftback not a hatchback.
So technically Toyota is the only one making a manual hot hatch, but the distinction seems unimportant to me because the CTR has a lot more space.
LogicWavelength@reddit
Interestingly, Toyota also makes the only manual pickup truck with the Tacoma (I just bought one!). I assume it’s a corporate directive since their CEO (is he still CEO?) is a racing enthusiast. He’s the reason GR exists IIRC, and it may be since Toyota is so huge globally that they can afford to allow fun vehicles to still exist solely on the behest of the CEO instead of some market research.
Captain_Alaska@reddit
The last time the Camry was the same length as the current hatch was 1991 and it grew 10 inches for the 3rd gen.
Sonar_Bandit@reddit
We need a new scion tc
nefrina@reddit
over here still daily driving mine, 16+ years of ownership. the rust will take her soon sadly :(
bananatacos@reddit
This is the reason I didn't even consider stepping into a Subaru dealer when I bought my '25 Golf R.
NISMO1968@reddit (OP)
The new STi’s coming!
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/subaru-sti-concepts-debut.html
Astramael@reddit
This is a concept car that has absolutely no promise of making it into production.
Odd_Fox5573@reddit
WRX is so underpowered it’s hilarious
Beastcu@reddit
I have a 21 WRX, but the new model looks awful so no wonder it’s not selling
bobjr94@reddit
I've had a bunch of subarus including a few WRXs ranging from 2003-2015 and an STI, but now I'm old and bought one of them EVs everyone hates.
The wrx was a fast inexpensive car in the 2000s but now it's just noise, everything is as fast or faster even without trying. You could get an AWD kia with 360HP and a 300HP Camay. The wrx didn't stand out and A CVT in a sports car was a no sale for many people.
JasonARGY@reddit
Think you’ll go back to gas? I’ve had my Model 3 P 1 year now and kinda crave these types of cars again after my lease is up but I don’t exactly know why.
bobjr94@reddit
It would be fun for like a week I think then the novelty would wear off...I have to stop for gas again didn't I just fill up Sunday...
JasonARGY@reddit
Yeah you’re right. I think EVs suffer from being too good at the daily stuff that they become boring. Lots of power available instantly at all times, smooth power delivery, no warmup time, no maintenance. But I will say, long drives do become a bit of a chore and that’s when I miss gas. I’m also reluctant to take road trips or get lost down any remote roads for fear of not finding a charger. But day to day, man EVs are so good. I guess that’s why you need 2 cars, can’t have it all with just one.
bobjr94@reddit
I thought we needed an extra car and kept my Baja for over a year after we got our EV. But the I never drove it, the battery went bad, tabs expired and the paint started turning green. I finally sold it before it rotted away.
Ornery-Magazine-7892@reddit
2010 and beyond WRX’s are tacky
Positive_Patient4019@reddit
Bring back the STi.
jasonmoyer@reddit
Which sports cars are currently outselling the twins? Which performance sedans are outselling the WRX?
SireEvalish@reddit
It depends on how you define "sports cars". The Miata sells more. If you expand your definition, both the Mustang and Corvette sell significantly more.
Vhozite@reddit
Subaru is easy to single out for these rage bait articles.
Unlike pretty much all its competitors, the WRX is its own model that has its own sales numbers listed on the quarterly sales releases, so it’s easy to point to a decline in sales. The sales of its competitors aren’t as easy to find because they’re often bundled in with economy base trims. For example you’ll notice there is only Corolla numbers on this release, but nothing for just the GR trim specifically.
The BRZ on paper sells less than all it’s competitors (see its <2300 sales YTD above), but looking at inventory numbers and previous sales charts it’s obvious its production limited compared to its Toyota counterpart, which has always sold 2-3x more units despite being largely identical. Combing the 86 and BRZ together (which itself isn’t perfect methodology) and they’re outselling pretty much everything that isn’t the Mustang or Corvette.
LogicWavelength@reddit
Someone with sources? On Reddit?
takao-obi@reddit
Sometimes sources tell a different story.
Subarus sales performance pdf also shows where their problem really lies:
https://www.subaru.co.jp/en/ir/finance/pdf/performance/pfo_global_e.pdf
In 2024 70% of all their sales were in the US. Combined with Canada and Australia it’s 82%. They are incredible dependent on those markets but are only stagnant in Japan losing sales in Europe and China.
That’s why on English speaking reddits the reception for Subaru is also different.
withsexyresults@reddit
Sounds like Subaru been pumping these units out which is great for enthusiasts. A lot of supply means harder for dealers to play the ADM game and easier to pick one up
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit
In terms of Subaru, ADM really isnt a thing anymore.
You can get any WRX or BRZ for $3k under MSRP all day long.
Subaru even backs that up with the VIP program where if you donate $500 to the ASPCA, you get guarenteed invoice.
withsexyresults@reddit
Which happens cuz Subaru pumps out units
Substantial-Oil7569@reddit
People like to single out Subaru because their formula hasn't changed much in like 15 years. My 2011 WRX made 265 hp at the crank. My 2025 WRX makes 271. I think the FAs dyno a little higher at the wheels, but when everyone else has been increasing their power figures for years, it's kinda like... what gives?
I think the big saving grace of the VB WRX is that it has lots of headroom compared to the EJ255 and FA20. All you need is a tune and intake and you're knocking on the door of 300whp and over 300 wtq.
RealSprooseMoose@reddit
Tune and intake get you closer to 350whp&tq.
The FA24 stock has nearly the same "peak" power and "peak" torque but is a much better engine everywhere else on the graphs than any Subaru turbo 4 prior.
KadettYachtz@reddit
I can only guess that by Subaru keeping the HP figures down that it'll increase reliability of the engine is their thinking?
zerosystem03@reddit
Miata sales this year are fairly consistent with last year's so far. The people making it about nominal price are only partially right. GR86 sales are slumping just like the BRZ's, so assuming it's not just due to low inventory, it's likely target demographics and income. The twins cater to a younger crowd. Hard to find official numbers but they range from 30s-40s whereas Miata owner's median age is 62 according to JD Power. That's pretty much in the Corvette age group where people are retiring and have disposable income
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
Because it’s been over a decade since they did anything original or novel. They’ve coasted on the past glory of the WRX/STI for ~20 years, and all the problems with the 86/BRZ are their fault.
HardBoiledHarold@reddit
I was behind a WRX the other day at a stop light. I thought it looked cool, and thought I’d give them a look next time I’m buying a car.
When the light turned green, a ton of smoke started bellowing out of the exhaust. No thanks.
NISMO1968@reddit (OP)
Looks like a poor ECU remap. The air-fuel ratio is too rich, which explains the black smoke. If it’s white, the engine’s probably toast.
HardBoiledHarold@reddit
It was white
NISMO1968@reddit (OP)
My bet’s on a coolant leak from a blown head gasket.
Born4Nothin@reddit
It’s a Subaru, of course it’s a head gasket…
humdizzle@reddit
i hate when people say 'oh but adjusted for inflation...' The people buying these cars dont care. They simply have less money to spend as salaries haven't caught up with the cost of products. And car companies certainly aren't going to have their high end employees take a paycut to help the general population afford their cars.
What_the_8@reddit
The BRZ is underpowered and the WRX with all the black plastic stuck to it is ugly. Stick a turbo on the BRZ and it will sell.
zerosystem03@reddit
The Z has two turbos and isnt moving without discounts. A turbo in the BRZ would just move it upmarket and make sales problems worse.
T0uc4nSam@reddit
Likely because they're competing with the Supra at that price point
zerosystem03@reddit
The base Z competed with the 2L supra that had less hp and no manual option, and people still felt the Z was overpriced. Those are the ones I see with discounted below $40k USD. I'm not sure about the performance trim, but I can see how the 3L supra edges out over the performance Z
T0uc4nSam@reddit
Nah I meant the B58 Supra obviously.
There's zero reason to take the B48 supra over even the GR86 imo
zerosystem03@reddit
I'm talking about people buying a base Z over an 86. 400hp wasnt enough. Nissan needed to discount them to move units
James_Vowles@reddit
Subaru need to get back into WRC for anything they make to sell
Swichblade@reddit
Didn't we do this exact same thread a few days ago with a similar top comment?
SaintTastyTaint@reddit
I considered the BRZ for my summer car as I retired the E90 328xi to winter duties, but I couldn't stomach the lack of turbo where the fun roads I would take it (Alberta/BC mountains) is at elevation and its horsepower is already lacking.
495orange@reddit
The Toyota 86 is selling much better than the BRZ, and even that is not in great numbers. Maybe Subaru needs to cancel this car and let Toyota save money producing only the 86.
DjImagin@reddit
BRZ isn’t selling because not many within its market have the money for a 2 door sports car currently.
WRX is a great car that looks like shit currently.
mettaxa@reddit
Title is misleading. They aren’t producing that many. There are very few BRZ’s in stock.
Hammerhandle@reddit
I WANT a BRZ, but at their price I'll just save a little more and get a Mustang GT.
hopfield@reddit
The price of the WRX went up $3k last year, that’s gonna kill some sales. I don’t really know why you’d buy a WRX for $37k when a GR Corolla is $40k
xxBrun0xx@reddit
I've been an admin in one of the largest BRZ groups in the country (86ONE) for almost a decade. My $0.02 - the BRZ is too expensive now, you used to be able to get a limited brand new for $25k back in 2014. They now cost almost 50% more than that for essentially the same car. Enthusiasts who want a BRZ are more likely to cross shop used ones and there are some great used options between $15k-$20k, so it is very difficult to justify new. Economy is also shit, that definitely doesn't help. It's a great car and if you truly love the feel of driving, there's nothing better. We used to have huge events with a ton of people, but enthusiasm for the car has definitely declined over time. Maybe it's the price increases, maybe it's the lack of updates, or maybe it's just what those of us who bought into the dream initially grew up? I'm not sure.
dustygator@reddit
They were always meant to to be an entry-level sports car so I'd imagine many former owners have moved on to a Porsche/Supra/Lotus/etc.
And while there will always be purists who want the classic formula of light/connected/RWD/manual, there are more who just want big brag-worthy numbers and don't care about driving feel.
hopfield@reddit
Bro go to /r/gr86 right now, I promise you those guys are not going to Porsche lmao.
BadResults@reddit
In Canada the pricing has stayed more reasonable. MSRP for a base BRZ is $32,695 CAD and they sometimes do promotional discounts. I got my 2025 with $1k off. That would be like $23k and change in USD.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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ShinLiberal@reddit
Three letters would solve both problems
STI
nefrina@reddit
and then endless threads whining about how it costs $55-60k
ShinLiberal@reddit
Well this is Reddit so you’re right.
But we wouldn’t be able to hear any of the whining over the sound of the turbo and blow off valve in the BRZ STI 😎
Bekabam@reddit
Make them faster for the same price, or keep them the same and dramatically lower the price.
It's really just that simple. The problem lies within your margins.
TehMulbnief@reddit
yeah because the brz blows engines and then subaru doesnt warranty them because customers drive their sports car in a sporty fashion.
Cjymiller@reddit
BRZ was 26k in 2013. Today that’s the equivalent of 36k. Also it’s been around a while. Time for a product refresh. Nothing unusual here
flamingmenudo@reddit
Might be partially due to them looking fuglier than ever before.
xxRonzillaxx@reddit
Why do you think everyone drives Hyundai and Kia now? We're all fucking broke
hurricanePopsicles@reddit
The Hyundai’s are quicker now too
MaceAries@reddit
I think the cars are fine but nobody has any money anymore. Groceries have doubled in price. That's a car payment right there. Do I need a new car or to eat... Sorry car. Gotta eat.
imnoherox@reddit
I mean, the BRZ is pricey for what it is, and the WRX is just hideous these days.
Successful_Ad_9707@reddit
I considered both cars when I was looking for a new daily.
The GR86 would have been pretty fun, but it's not practical and I also didn't want to drive a RWD sports coupe around during Chicago winters. I also wasn't going to sacrifice either my Si or Integra instead.
The WRX would have been more strongly considered if it looked better and didn't have that god awful Fisher Price tablet inside. If they offered a good looking hatch in the US, it would have made for a viable alternative to the GR Corolla. Ended up with the GRC and couldn't be happier. Hopefully that new STI concept actually gets put into production. There needs to be more competition in this class.
kconfire@reddit
Both need some performance upgrades and price reduction.
ChrisPnCrunchy@reddit
Everybody acts like it’s solely a money thing
The fact is these cars are popular or exciting anymore. Everything about them is either stagnant or worse.
There’s literally no reason to buy either of these new; they’re bringing nothing to the table they didn’t serve years ago. In same instance, their worse now.
Op3rat0rr@reddit
Performance-wise it is quite a bit faster than the previous generation, and the engine is a lot more reliable, which is kind of huge
However the design is lazy and ugly, and ugly in a bad way. I don’t mind ugly design but it’s the ‘corporate’ level of laziness in its design is what turns me off
wakeupabit@reddit
Ya don’t think the WRX not selling might have something to do with being god awful ugly. Looks like a squished dodge calibre. Tail lights still intact.
Op3rat0rr@reddit
Exactly this. It isn’t the price. It’s the worst designed WRX ever, and not in a good way. It’s lazy design too. It has grown on me but good design shouldn’t have to grow on you. The price point for what it offers for performance and reliability is good for modern pricing IMO. Oh well
nopeandnothing@reddit
Was strongly considering a WRX but the auto option being a CVT, awful infotainment/climate control, and terrible gas mileage really put me off.
Montreal4life@reddit
Thats why you need the manual on wrx, glad they still offer it
Insideoutdancer@reddit
Yes but I don't think they make a manual version of the highest trim.
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit
They do now actually.
Subaru does listen to their customers, they created a new trim level called the tS at the GT price that includes everything that enthusiasts were complaining about on launch.
It has Recaro Seats, Brembo brakes, manual only, a digital dash, adaptive dampers, etc.
But it is ridiculously expensive.
Insideoutdancer@reddit
Oh nice! Thanks for the correction. I might have to look into that. I've been thinking about trading in Crosstrek for WRX but also have had my eye on Civic type R for its insane value.
theArtOfProgramming@reddit
Honestly if you have the interest in a car like a WRX, you’re going to enjoy it more in a manual. It’s worth learning and it isn’t hard.
Paper-street-garage@reddit
I think the fan base ha kind of ruined the appeal unfortunately. Looking at you, Kyle with a monster hat and vape pens
coastal_ghost08@reddit
The people that want to buy them can't afford them and the people that can afford them don't want to buy them.
WarCrimeGaming@reddit
How’s the IS500
coastal_ghost08@reddit
Love it. Comfortable cruiser for my daily commute. Stupid comfortable on the interstate. Pretty decent gas mileage as long as I don't get too much into the go pedal. Great soundtrack. The ride/handling is amazing for 90 percent of driving. It gets trounced in the 10 percent edge 9/10ths track performance by a comparable BMW, but will eat the BMWs lunch in terms of reliability and maintenance requirements. Eats tires (although that's an IS issue all the way around). Reliable till the sun goes supernova. Will hold value more than almost any other car on the market. Ownership costs are negligible.
For me and where I am in my life (early 50s, established, empty nester, want a car that is fun to drive when I want it to be, reliable no wrenching on it on the weekends works out of the box), it's perfect. Lexus dealership service is amazing. If I want to go be a hooligan on curvy roads and feed my inner 18 year old, I have the GT350.
Only have two things I don't like about it:
Infotainment system is a bit wonky with Apple Carplay start up. Obviously the console trackpad is stupid and takes up needed space which leads me to...
Console storage being limited to two tiny cup holders and tiny console suuuuuuuuuuucks. Only place to put my phone is either in a cup holder or console when connected to CarPlay. Wireless carplay dongles were unreliable (likely due to the wonky CarPlay shenanigans mentioned earlier). Though I admit it could be operator error in the set up.
WarCrimeGaming@reddit
Man, if they did a refresh of it for 2026 I would have been all over one, it’s what I was waiting for. Now they’re all going $60k* used
coastal_ghost08@reddit
That and 5 minutes after it's posted online, it's gone. I have a friend that has been looking for one for a solid year. Granted, he's picky with the interior color (black only) and only not open to buying a yellow one.
The price is going to be what the price is. You're not going to find one "cheap". Even the new 70K plus new models are sold before they arrive at the dealership. Hell, even IS350 F Sports are usually gone before dealer arrival.
WarCrimeGaming@reddit
I was so mad when I saw a 2023 vector blue and it was gone within a day
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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Stacheshadow@reddit
Bruh
zkrp5108@reddit
No one wants to take the initial hit on depreciation, I bet you the second hand market sells pretty good
xGhost09@reddit
It's not the car.
It's the economy in its current state.
Everything is getting expensive.
People don't the money.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
I personally can’t stand the overly plastic look of the WRX. The wagon version that’s sold in overseas markets looks so much better because they kept the plastic bits to a minimal amount.
That and I think it’s interesting that a 2009 WRX was a much better performing vehicle than the current version. According to C/D numbers, a 2009 WRX could hit 60 in 4.7 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 13.5 seconds. The current version does it in 5.5 and 13.9 seconds respectively.
Substantial-Oil7569@reddit
That's because of the 5MT. You can hit 60 in 2nd gear compared to 3rd in the STi and newer WRXs.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
Ok so explain the 1/4 mile difference then.
Substantial-Oil7569@reddit
The 2009 weighs ~3,200 lbs while the 2025 weighs 3,350-3,500ish depending on the trim.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
Ok and the new one is up on power and torque over the 2009 version.
Substantial-Oil7569@reddit
:shrug:
Yeah, it's probably making 10 more whp and similar torque. I don't think there's any black magic going on here. It's a simple physics problem.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
I just think either way for it to even have the same performance as the one from 2009 is kind of a let down. I think the performance should have improved over the last 15 years.
Substantial-Oil7569@reddit
I agree, and there isn't even an STi right now so it's not like the WRX is stepping on the flagship product's toes.
Smart-As-Duck@reddit
It’s expensive.
I bought mine for 40k (43k MSRP) in April. The only options for a manual AWD car were the WRX, GRC, and Golf R.
I hated the functionality of the Golf R interior, and how cheap the GRC interior felt.
I will say for an extra 2k, installing the Cobb stage 2 kit has made the car come alive, but it should have felt like that from the factory.
shouldahadaflat4@reddit
This should really be up higher. Yes the car should come warrantied with these upgrades but if you can transform a car for $2k or less, then it should be seen as a tuner special or a blank canvas. Also the VB did have a lot of stuff fixed in terms of drivetrain calibration compared to the VA.
I have basically the same garage except my WRX is a 2017 limited with 120k miles. It has a mild tune that fixed all of the drivability issues, and was only $450 (used cobb accessory). Between that, a new set of speakers after the stock crap blew out, and a shift bracket and bushing, the car is night and day better. It's a great reliable daily for a northern climate. Also I get about 27 mpg avg which is very good considering AWD and 250 whp with a manual.
I'm not an apologist for Subaru, and I most likely won't be buying a VB for my next daily. But it isn't because it's not a good option, I just want to try something different.
SophistXIII@reddit
You'll always get your money out of it too.
I bought a VA WRX new in 2018 and traded it in in 2023 for nearly what I paid for it new. Basically drove it for free for 5.5 years outside of regular maintenance, gas and insurance.
Pretty good considering most performance cars depreciate pretty hard.
Substantial-Oil7569@reddit
Agreed on all points. I considered the GRC as well, but I felt the interior and the larger FA24 were more to my taste in the WRX.
I love driving mine, and I love that it feels like an old-new car. Infotainment aside, everything feels very mechanical and "real." There's no fake engine noise, there's no auto rev-matching, the AWD is legit and not FWD-based, you can hear the exhaust in the cabin, you can hear the transmission whine. It feels so much like my old '11 WRX just with a facelift.
I just have a Cobb catback and factory short shifter + Cobb weighted knob right now. An intake, protune, Rays wheels, and maybe some better brake pads are on my wishlist.
jemlinus@reddit
I had a ’23 WRX but got rid of it after sitting in an Elantra N. The Elantra N has a nicer interior, better sound, is much quicker, and it’s cheaper.
Skensis@reddit
The Elantra N is the affordable sporty car to get, I know the looks are polarizing but it's just a good deal that balances fun and practicality well enough.
uglybushes@reddit
Nope they aren’t making them. I’ve had 1 WRX in my lot the past 4 months.
Substantial-Oil7569@reddit
Probably just depends on your area. My local dealer had 3 or 4 on the lot when I bought mine, and 6 months later when I came in for service, they had another 4 or 5 on the lot new.
uglybushes@reddit
Historically western pa sells the most wrx. They have limited production to vehicles and have focused on core models
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
It’s not enough that we have to have motor1 articles constantly spammed on this sub, but now we have to have motor1 articles that just reheat information from other articles that this sub fully discussed days ago
KiddBwe@reddit
I think the BRZ is in part of word constantly going around that it’s going to get a turbo, then it never happens. My wife was waiting for that, don’t want to pull the trigger on a BRZ then suddenly the new model finally gets a turbo.
Now she wants a MDX because we have a baby on the way.
dontbeslo@reddit
They’ve gotten too expensive while not receiving meaningful updates in a few years.
Also, the poor VB WRX was hit pretty hard by an ugly stick. I stick see a lot of VAs but far fewer VBs
Ser_Drewseph@reddit
“Everyman” sporty cars aren’t selling well during a time of widespread economic hardship for the Everyman? Color me shocked
stupidber@reddit
Need moar power
BunnyTiger23@reddit
Too expensive
Heisenburg7@reddit
"It's because, I'm all out of.... MONEY!"
IAmWellBehaved@reddit
I am not the biggest performance economy car guy so I may lack credibility here, but with those prices I would speculate the average MSRP of a new WRX is sitting in the 40K+ range. For that kind of money, you're not that far off of a Civic Type-R, GR Corolla, Golf R, which for better or worse have been for less controversial in the enthusiast crowd and are way "cooler", to say nothing of their performance.
Personally I feel like I'd just upgrade to one of them or save and get the Elantra N or try to find a deal on a GTI.
ForestCityWRX@reddit
A lot of WRX owners are sitting on their wallets waiting for a refresh without all the plastic.
Low-Umpire236@reddit
But the infotainment looks like Windows XP.
icbint@reddit
The newest wrx just looks shit let’s not kid ourselves
V48runner@reddit
Sports cars typically aren't volume leaders, but the WRX could be a useful vehicle you could cross shop against a crossover, if it came as a hatchback.
MBolero@reddit
I had a BRZ for 3 years. A very fun car to drive.If Subaru added their AWD system to it the car would be incredible.
TopoChico-TwistOLime@reddit
make a wrx hatch you cowards
BOHIFOBRE@reddit
Has anyone mentioned how the new WRX is just flat out hideous? That might affect sales.
donesteve@reddit
Two non lesbian cars from a lesbian car brand. Of course they’re not selling.
wandertrucks@reddit
The WRX has soo much body cladding it looks like a Civic and an Isuzu Vehicross fucked and had this....thing
Everybody has heard or knows that the BRZ is a ticking timebomb of rod bearing failure and is underpowered as hell compared to the competition. Yeah, supposedly they fixed the bearings in '14 but it still happens.
TheWonkiestThing@reddit
You'd sell more if you made the BRZ a liftback coupe.
You'd sell more if you made the WRX a hatchback.
People can only afford one car nowadays and you have to consider that when making a car.
AlfaHotelWhiskey@reddit
Personally I draw the line at CVT transmissions. Maybe I need to be better educated about them but they don’t strike me as appropriate in a performance car.
daxelkurtz@reddit
More and more, economists are using the phrase "K-shaped" to describe the US economy. They mean that the majority of consumer spending is coming from the poorest people and the richest people. (The "K" is lying on its back on the X axis).
...the poorest people spend so much because there are so many of them; the richest people because they got most of the money.
This results in a "missing middle." There are not many consumers buying middle-market, middle-priced goods.
This means there are two very popular classes of vehicles right now: very expensive ones, and very cheap ones. The "moderately-priced" class of vehicle? Not popular.
If you want to move inventory, you want to be selling either clapped-out 4th-gen Altimas, or 911s.
"Affordable sports coupe" - a $35k BRZ - sits right at the nadir of the K.
No_Cherry_1423@reddit
I think they just don’t market these things at all. They should probably offer more hp if not only for marketing reasons.
alphagypsy@reddit
I mean the new WRX is pretty ugly.
And the BRZ, it’s subjective of course, but the GR86 looks a lot better.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
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ManufacturerBest2758@reddit
But enough about the Prelude
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Someone has post same article in r/cars. However, it was locked, so this one would be locked too.
TinuThomasTrain@reddit
I feel like most people who are considering the BRZ probably have that as a backup if the can’t get a GR86 at the right price, spec, and whatever else. That badge def matters, even if it is the same car.
mustangfan12@reddit
The WRX is no longer a good deal and the BRZ has never really sold super well. The BRZ is more expensive than a Miata, so thats probably a big factor
ZZZ-Top@reddit
Can't do much with it that's the problem.
mulletstation@reddit
Da doiiii
xdr01@reddit
Expensive, like a lot of Japanese csr manufacturers now.
xlb250@reddit
Too slow imo