Israel’s underground jail, where Palestinians are held without charge and never see daylight
Posted by sssmmt@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 194 comments
dova_kinn@reddit
Israel is holding dozens of Palestinians from Gaza isolated in an underground jail where they never see daylight, are deprived of adequate food and barred from receiving news of their families or the outside world.
if there is a truly evil place on earth where evil thrives in every corner , it is the so called state of 'Israel' which needs to be dismantled .
HummusSwipper@reddit
I guess "China" should be dismantled too? China's black sites
I guess Saudi Arabia should be dismantled too? Saudi Arabia's black sites
Welp, guess "Poland", "Romania" and "Lithuania" also gotta go Black sites in these countries
Wait wait wait I got one more, last one I promise! Jewish hostages were held in tunnels underground by Hamas for months while being tortured, should we dismantle "Palestine" too? I know it's silly to ask since Palestine isn't even a country (lolol), I'm just mocking your dumb logic. Gaza hostages were held in tunnels for months.
Okok I know I said last one but lets not forget Hamas tortures and executes its own people in underground facilities: Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces | Amnesty International
Go spread your vile takes somewhere else. God forbid a country arrests and jails literal terrorists and criminals. "Oh but he's just a "nurse", he's just a "food vendor"" because he said so? Ok following that logic can you show me a single clip from the war where a Hamas member actually wore its uniform? Because any sane person who'll look at the war footage will be asking themselves "Why is that man firing an RPG while wearing flipflops?"
BernieMP@reddit
Finally someone gets it! You are completely correct, israel is just as bad a s China, Saudi arabia and the very terrorists that they need around to continue their genocide!
All those countries are just abhorrent in their behavior
HummusSwipper@reddit
Why didn't you include Poland, Romania and Lithuania? lmao. Seems like you didn't get it at all. Imagine your subconscious physically preventing you from reaching the most basic of understandings, which is that developed countries don't play nice with terrorists seeking to destroy it. There I spoon fed you, bon appetite! :)
BernieMP@reddit
Really? Did you mention any Germany? Norway? Finland, they deal with russia all the time.
Kinda seems like it's only a certain kind of "developed" places
You really think Lithuania is a dealbreaker for scumbag countries?
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
It would be amusing how these hasbara bros think asking us to condemn other human rights abuses is somehow some kind of gotcha. Like what does he expect us to go oh no not muh black sites.
Except, it's really chilling. That guy seems to think we are somehow ok with black sites, because HE is ok with them
HummusSwipper@reddit
I'm highlighting the double standards. This is understandably hard to grasp for those who've never left their echo chambers, I know.
BernieMP@reddit
I genuinely think their purpose is just to establish a very thin perception of discrimination for the people who already support the IDF and won't change their mind in any way, as another excuse to point to when faced with the reality of their genocie
Trying to make it seem like there's no condemnation of those other atrocities, and the only ones being persecuted are because of antisemitism
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
I think you're on to something.
Im always really puzzled, in this sub especially, about who exactly they are trying to persuade.
They end up quasi supporting all kinds of egregious shit and it just makes them sound irredeemable to anyone who has humanitarian values.
HummusSwipper@reddit
I have no clue what it is you want. I get that you're hungry for more spoon feeding I'm just baffled as to what it is you want to eat. Are you trying to say Germany/Norway/Finland are signs of proper developed countries?
Please reply with a coherent comment next time
BernieMP@reddit
Yes, that's exactly the point, it's funny how the people playing smart can't catch on to implied information, shit even basic sarcasm has gone over your head
Proper developed countried do not conduce genocide, terroristic nations do
Do you need more "spoon feeding"?
beauchywhite@reddit
Thank you for trying to explain this to these people
HummusSwipper@reddit
nw, I will do anything to avoid studying
ducktape8856@reddit
One can see.
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
😂
mendokusei15@reddit
Explaining how fallacies work? Yeah, they are doing a great job at that.
mendokusei15@reddit
TLDR: "So whatabout... and whatabout.... and whatabout... and whatabout... and whatabout..."
Arguments: 404 not found.
HummusSwipper@reddit
It’s not whataboutism if the comparison directly highlights an inconsistency in standards or reasoning, that’s just called examining context or applying equal principles.
mendokusei15@reddit
You can't highlight an inconsistency you don't know about... unless, besides derailing the conversation with pure blatant whataboutism, you are also shamelessly jumping to conclusions.
Discuss the actual topic, even if it's hard to your position (honesty is hard) or use keep using fallacies like a coward.
Gubbinso@reddit
No, they should also have those black sites dismantled and brought to justice for their human rights violations.
So you think those held without charge and haven't been tried is reasonable? You're fine with Israel denying the Rule of Law and rights to a fair trial to those it deems terrorists and therefor are authorised to take extrajudicial action? What about all those children being indefinitely held on no charge?
party_core_@reddit
I dunno, seems just about as suspicious as somebody who hides their comment history
Stippings@reddit
Most people who do this are either trying to hide the fact they have an agenda, or know how vile they are and are ashamed to show it.
This sub would drastically increase in quality if automod instantly removed comments and submissions by accounts who hides their profile.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Mmmhm I love the taste of salty tears of stalkers whining about my hidden profile
Clean-Ad-6642@reddit
You've been commenting on the thread for 3 hours. Go outside you bellend
Greedy_Ship_785@reddit
It amazes me how petty these guys are.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Reddit has a bot problem, what's wrong with calling it out?
Greedy_Ship_785@reddit
Calling others bot while having their comments hidden is peak hypocrisy.
rattleandhum@reddit
I recommend RES for reddit. You can tag these cretins. I know now, every time I enter these threads who the hasbarabots are.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Why? How is a resurrected account that hyperfixates on commenting about a singular topic the same as me hiding my history so I can collect the tears of reddit's stalkers? I'd love to hear your explanation.
Greedy_Ship_785@reddit
Tell me which dataset were you trained on, what is your base model and what was your initial prompt.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Ask your mom bro
Nem o Wi-Fi caiu tanto quanto o Brasil naquele 7 a 1.
Greedy_Ship_785@reddit
Low effort bait, ask whoever is running you to update you to the newest version
HummusSwipper@reddit
How do you know there's a new version? Oops seems like you just revealed yourself as the bot all along!
That 7-1 score makes much more sense now
HummusSwipper@reddit
Really? How come these are equally suspicious? Please, enlighten us all.
party_core_@reddit
All I know is, whenever I see somebody coming with scorching hot, truly incisive takes that say, hey, this person really gets it, I'm always disappointed that they've chosen to hide their pearls of wisdom from us plebes ;(
As for the other one, the gap is suspicious, but at least we n see what they're about.
HummusSwipper@reddit
The only reason you'd need my comment history is to engage with ad hominem, so I prefer to take that away from you. The fact this causes you to kick and scream is just an added bonus honestly :)
rattleandhum@reddit
ah, the equivocating ghoul is here, didn't take long.
Yes, all these places should be dismantled. NEXT.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Alright go dismantle them champ, I'll wait for you here!
Not-reallyanonymous@reddit
Yeah! All those countries. And US should be dismantled too. Most (all?) countries should.
And neoliberalism and contemporary democracy stomped out, and replaced with post-nation-state societal organization, with implementations of democracy that utilize what we’ve learned about democratic decision making over the past 200 years.
At least some of these people are being held without charge. Those who are held under charge have largely been charged by military courts, or in the best cases, Israeli civil courts, courts under the very same government that is inflecting genocide against the Palestinian people.
Like come on, even in our shitty contemporary democracy, concepts like “judged by a jury of peers,” or similar concepts in non-jury-based legal systems, are considered foundational and essential elements of modern civil society. A fair trial is considered by every civil society as an essential part of justice, and the determining factor in the establishment of criminality of an individual. And you’re cheering on the failure to uphold even such primitive principles.
This is a big reason why it’s considered apartheid, btw. Palestinians in the West Bank, and now Gaza, are subject to a separate legal system imposed on them by a government under which they have no rights, with no end in sight.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Yeah you lost me at that first line. If your starting point is "All these countries should be dismantled" then we won't be agreeing on anything.
In fact, I won't bother reading your comment as I don't want to engage with hypocrites who enjoy a comfy and privileged life due to being born in a privileged country, yet are somehow stupid enough to call for their own destruction.
Not-reallyanonymous@reddit
cool story bro.
Yes, I am privileged. A lot of people in the US, and especially in US history haven't been as privileged. Dismantling the US is how we're going to make sure another genocide of Palestine, or another Iraq war, isn't going to happen.
Dismantling isn't the same as destruction, though. It's a deconstruction of the institutions which have empowered abuses against countless people, and rebuilding newer, better institutions that hold closer to justice.
NoHetro@reddit
pretty weak to reply and block someone ngl.
party_core_@reddit
I dunno, seems just about as suspicious as somebody who hides their comment history
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Wait wait, are you saying palestinians can differentiant between militants and 'civilians'?
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
This is an incredibly fucked up human rights abuse.
Gecko99@reddit
I really think this and other Israeli prisons should be covered more widely in the media outside The Guardian and just a few subreddits. At least this article should be posted on places like Twitter where there will be more extensive discussion. I'd imagine at this point most people think "the prisoners have been released, the Palestinians are returning home" and that's obviously not the case. Until these people are released from their underground prisons they will continue to be used as a bargaining chip whenever Israel wants to start bombing again.
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
This. Half the people I know haven't even heard of Sde Teiman which is basically Abu Ghraib.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Well, have they heard of any of the black sites in China? In Poland? Lithuania? Strictly from a pragmatic standpoint the situation in Israeli prisons pales in comparison to what is going on in other places. I could also continue to name other countries where prisoners are terribly mistreated but I believe you get my point.
The question is, why the hyper fixation on Israel?
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
I mean yes many of my friends are aware of the egregious human rights abuses in US black sites, this is not a new issue. US won't even stop illegal imprisonment in Guantanamo.
If anything this new problem can be seen very much as a continuation of the Goatse-ing of the west's human rights overton window caused by the US allies torture regime.
From what the Sde Teiman whistleblowers say it is VERY COMPARABLE to those sites (only it possibly seems to involve more medical experimentation by interns for some reason).
Your mileage obviously varies, either because your circles arent politically aware or because you're determined to assume bad faith for anyone concerned about this but it honestly does look like its up there with CEPCOT and various other sites of current human rights abuses.
HummusSwipper@reddit
God knows why you attribute this to the "west" as if this isn't normal practice around the globe. In fact, I'd gladly argue it's much worse in every non-Western country because at least in the West there's some form of accountability.
You get to live your privileged and sheltered life precisely because your country goes to such extremes to maintain your safety and privilege. You're more than welcome to stop playing SJW on the internet and move yourself and your friend to a developing country, ya'll clearly need to experience life outside your bubble.
travistravis@reddit
Part of it may be that this is a very old problem and despite the UN trying to pass many resolutions about it over the years, they've all been vetoed by the US. Many Americans aren't a fan of genocide by proxy either.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Bad answer. The correct one is because people are lonely and need something to unify them, with the addition of identity politics causing Westerners to hate themselves and think that allying with people who'd murder them makes them morally superior to others.
Throwing around the word genocide is pathetic and only takes away from actual, real genocides. I guess the war against ISIS that resulted in 50k casualties was also a genocide, or does that not count because it wasn't Israel's fault?
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
Oh you took the mask off.
Regret having taken your reply to me seriously now.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Booo you don't want to be my friend because I don't accept your personal interpretation for the word 'genocide' ;(
Shelala85@reddit
Genocide looks like property confiscation. Genocide looks like the changing of place names. Genocide looks like the removal of people to replace them with settlers. Genocide looks like calorie restriction. Genocide looks like endangering health. And, yes, genocide looks like mass killing.
All this we were told in 1944 when the term genocide was introduced so are you sure you can recognize actual real genocide when you limited it to one technique?
http://www.preventgenocide.org/lemkin/AxisRule1944-2.htm
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258433114_Genocide_and_settler_colonialism_can_a_Lemkin-inspired_genocide_perspective_aid_our_understanding_of_the_Palestinian_situation
Proteus-8742@reddit
What black sites are you referring to in Poland and Lithuania? A major reason that people in the UK are upset about Israel’s genocide is that the UK is a participant in that genocide.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Black sites in Poland and Lithuania (and Romania) https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/fs_secret_detention_eng
Mind you this is just the ones that have been brought to light. It's very reasonable to acknowledge most developed countries have some form of black site, especially those that take a more active role in the global stage.
Proteus-8742@reddit
It’s a wild guess - but I imagine people aren’t so vexed about those incidents because they occurred 20 years ago and the sites no longer exist?
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
Nah mate its ongoing.
We DO care about it we just havent managed to get any traction on it for the past 25 years.
Proteus-8742@reddit
Name one person detained on a European black site since 2009?
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
Why is your comment history hidden, you don't seem to be one of the Israeli shills?
I mean we all know a few countries are using them for refugees rn but I assume from the 2009 date youre talking about the CIA. May come as a surprise to you but neither of those groups gives out info on who they are detaining, thats kind of the point of a black site.
Proteus-8742@reddit
Obama formally ended the CIA black site program in 2009. I don’t doubt the US still has such things eg at sea and obvs there Guantanamo, but given that since 2009 there have been various investigation in Europe into black sites, I kind of doubt there are still sites in Europe. I haven’t seen any evidence anyway
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
Oh yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with your main point.
Tbh when I made that comment I was thinking about the ongoing US black site gulag system in general not specifically about Lithuania, reading back over the comment chain what I said doesnt make that much sense.
You might be right about Europe The modern scandals over East European black sites seem to be things like Orban shoving refugees into them.
That said I disagree with that guys BS that none of us care about other ongoing human rights violations when we pretty obviously do.
Proteus-8742@reddit
Because i don’t want israeli shills up in my shit
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
Fair enough. They havent done that to me yet, didnt k ow it was part of their schtick.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Many of the cases in that document are from 10 years ago, not 20. And based on what do you assume these sites no longer exist? The document said nothing of that sort. Your comment is very confusing
Proteus-8742@reddit
In the document you linked, All three cases v. Lithuania refer to detentions in 2005-6
HummusSwipper@reddit
And the cases have become relevant again due to new information emerging. So what's your point?
Proteus-8742@reddit
My point is that its reasonable for people to be more upset about thousands of Palestinians held , at this moment, without trial being tortured and in some cases executed in underground Israeli prisons , than a much smaller number of people being tortured on black sites, which haven’t existed since 2009, 20 years ago. And that people did protest about the war on terror in huge numbers at the time in any case.
HummusSwipper@reddit
There's a problem with your argument's premise- it's not thousands, I mean this specific article barely names two. If you'd read the article you'd know it says there are, at best, \~100 inmates at that specific prison.
Furthermore, are you arguing this is the result recency bias or a scale bias? Because as we speak there are hundreds of thousands of Uyghur Muslims held in Chinese concentration camps. Although it's larger in scale and is currently on going, no one could care less about that topic. How does that fit your argument?
Proteus-8742@reddit
There are currently around 10,000 palestinians being held in Israeli prisons, only 1500 are actually serving sentences. As I said initially we are not participating in China’s repression of the Uyghur, whereas the UK and other countries are participants in the genocide due to their military coordination with the IDF.
HummusSwipper@reddit
The UK is importing goods from China, hence directly contributing to the Chinese economy. The UK's military coordination with Israel amounts to... what exactly?
I'm failing to understand why China gets a pass from you.
Proteus-8742@reddit
Because we are not directly participating in Chinese repression of the Uyghurs. The UK has flown hundreds of surveillance flights over Gaza to assist air strikes that have killed civilians. We have transferred weapons and equipment to Israel through RAF Akrotiri and RAF Brize Norton which has subsequently been used to commit war crimes. We back Israel diplomatically without question.
That does not compare with maintaining trade relations with China. Additionally, and unlike China, multiple UN bodies have concluded Israel is committing genocide
HummusSwipper@reddit
Your comment reads as meaningless excuses. Uyghur concentration camps need money to maintain and the UK is giving China money. By your logic, European countries could have just cease military coordination with Russia instead of going as far as imposing sanctions on it, is that right?
Honestly, you're purposely trying to portray the two things as different when in reality they're are pretty much the same. I'm happy to be the one to burst your bubble.
The UN is just a place for countries to voice grievances, it is not a court and has no real authority. Why do you treat it as some beacon of truth? To me it sounds more like you're just using it as a convenient rhetoric tool. Will you deny the Armenian genocide Because the UN hasn't deemed it a genocide?
Proteus-8742@reddit
Why do you keep conflating historical events with things that are happening right now? Of course people are going to protest about current events - they’re trying to stop them!
HummusSwipper@reddit
When did I conflate historical events? I'm just trying to figure out what you're saying. If you follow the UN's opinions to a tee, that'd inadvertently mean you deny the Armenian genocide. The Uyghur genocide is happening right now, your comment history however has zero mention of it. How do these fit with your logic?
Idk bro, to me you sound pretty hypocritical and obsessed with Israel rather than morally just and informed.
Proteus-8742@reddit
You mentioned Lithuanian black sites in the 00s. And the Armenian genocide in 1915-17. These events happened in the past. That means you can’t stop them in the present day by protesting
HummusSwipper@reddit
I also mentioned the Uyghur genocide, did you miss that part or did you subconciously skip it?
Proteus-8742@reddit
I already responded to that. Fuck this. Free Palestine
HummusSwipper@reddit
Your ignorance is not freeing anything hahaha, you're just polarizing discussions and making a fool of yourself.
HummusSwipper@reddit
I think you've accidentally flipped the script there my friend. Jews were kidnapped from Israel to be used as bargaining chips for future negotiations. The absurdity is how Jewish lives are worth so much that Palestinians go as far as stealing their corpses Video allegedly showing UN aid worker taking body of Israeli on Oct. 7 | Reuters
This goes back as far as Gilad Shalit's deal in 2006 Why Israelis believe one soldier is worth 1,000 Palestinian prisoners
To argue it's Israel that needs bargaining chips makes no sense from an objective perspective. You'd first have to assume Hamas values and second be oblivious to the words of Palestinian leaders themselves: 'I Asked Sinwar, Is It Worth 10,000 Innocent Gazans Dying? He Said, Even 100,000 Is Worth It' | Reuters
I feel like this needs to be said even though it's somewhat unrelated: This war was started by Hamas and was perpetuated by Hamas. At every single point in time, if Hamas would have said "We surrender" the war would have been over in that very instant.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. Cheers
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
So why does Israel keep holding Palestinians without charge in a dark hole?
HummusSwipper@reddit
The aforementioned prison has, allegedly, around 100 inmates. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians are not held in that prison, do you understand that?
As to why black sites exist well maybe ask China or the USA if it really bothers you. Unless you're saying you're more bothered by a dozen individuals held in Israel than you are by thousands held around the globe?
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
This post is about Palestinians being held in Israel so that’s what I’m bothered by when I comment here. What other countries do is irrelevant.
So why does Israel hold 100 Palestinians in this particular prison and at least another thousand without trial or charges in other places?
HummusSwipper@reddit
I've already answered your initial questions but now you're just shifting goalposts instead of engaging with what I've said. The post is about one thing but we were past discussing it. You've also completely failed to engage with my initial comment, instead deflecting with vague questions.
Clearly you're bothered by what Israel does more than what other countries do so, even when said countries cause a lot more suffering to many more people. How about dropping the performative outrage act instead of engaging in bad faith arguments?
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
My initial question was why Israel is holding people without charge in a dark hole? Your answer was that it’s allegedly around 100 people and that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians aren’t held there. How is that an answer to my question of why?
HummusSwipper@reddit
That comment had two paragraphs, yet somehow and even though you read it at least twice you still missed the 2nd part referring to that silly question. Maybe it's time for sleepy sleep?
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
This bit?
So your answer is other countries have black sites too and I should ask them why they exist? But that also doesn’t answer my question because I’m asking you what you think why Israel is holding these people without charge in dark hole.
HummusSwipper@reddit
You asked a rhetorical question and received a rhetorical answer. It's pretty straightforward. Maybe you're not mature enough to understand no one enjoys entertaining your imbecility?
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
What’s with the sad little insults and all the assumptions? I asked a question cus I thought you have an opinion on why Israel is doing this since you’re convinced it’s not for bargaining purposes. You could have said that you don’t know at any point in this back and forth.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Yawn.
Well this conversation has run its course and you've enjoyed enough of my attention. Goodbye.
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
Lol. That’s what I reckoned.
Proteus-8742@reddit
Human rights violations have occurred in basically all Israeli detention centres. Israeli human rights organisation B’Tselem recently produced this report
Welcome to Hell - The Israeli Prison System as a Network of Torture Camps
Tsofuable@reddit
How strange that Israel can just "release" thousands of Palestinians at the drop of a hat. It's almost like they systematically abduct them and holding them hostage.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Israel arrested them either during October 7th or in the subsequent two years of war. What's strange about it exactly?
bullhead2007@reddit
This is bullshit. Israel already had thousands of Palestinians held in prisons without charge for years before Oct 7th.
HummusSwipper@reddit
It's not bullshit. The majority of the released prisoners in the latest ceasefire were arrested during the war.
Additionally, prior to October 7th, out of the \~5,000 Palestinian prisoners only around \~1,000 were held without trial. This is a farcry from what you're arguing. Are you misinformed or just trying to inflame discussions?
On a personal note, it's easy to judge the security requirements of another country when you live a privileged life with no concerns on the other side of the world. By employing these security measurements Israel has cut down on Palestinian terrorism and has completely eradicated the phenomenon of Palestinian suicide bombing in Israeli buses and restaurants. You can kick and scream all you want, won't change the fact you're pointing fingers at the wrong side.
travistravis@reddit
Which is only about 1000 human rights abuses too many by the "most moral army" in the world.
HummusSwipper@reddit
I don't recall calling the IDF "the most moral army in the world" though now did I? Garbage strawman argument.
bullhead2007@reddit
It sure is easy to judge a Settler colonial state who has been displacing the millions actual indigenous people to that land for 80+ years that are committing a genocide and operate as an expansionist fascist ethnostate and aparheid state with ethno-supremacist ideology rivaling the Nazis.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Are you feeling ok? It seems like you just vomited on your keyboard
callmejellydog@reddit
This sub is literally full of pro Hamas Redditors. It’s best to just enjoy the headlines of Hamas scum and their supporters being eradicated like rats and stay quiet.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Oh I know, and I know it's a waste of time engaging with them but I can't help myself lol. Appreciate the support though!
Small-Policy-3859@reddit
You know a nation is absolute filth when you're suprised to read the Court actually decided something in favor of the opressed People (or is this again one of these twisted Court decisions and is it actually the opposite?)
I-Here-555@reddit
Israeli courts are fairly independent and many judges are not fans of Netanyahu.
For all its faults, it's not a monolithic society.
waiver@reddit
Not being fans of Netanyahu doesn't mean that they don't support the IDF war crimes, which they do.
Small-Policy-3859@reddit
We'll not being fans of Netanyahu doesn't really say a lot, i've heard from many Zionists online that they hate him too. They all agree on one thing tho, and that is the eradication of the palestinian People & state. That's why this is so suprising.
I-Here-555@reddit
Palestinians are an existential threat to the state of Israel (and vice versa).
That doesn't justify genocide, but it's not a huge surprise you won't find too many pro-Palestinian Israelis... although plenty would like to see human rights respected and some kind of a negotiated, stable two-state solution.
Small-Policy-3859@reddit
If the People who were living on the land before them are an existential threat to them maybe they should realize they are the problem. It's like a home invader complaining that the home owners are a threat to them. And then we should applaud the buddy of the home invader who still doesn't want to leave the home but calls for a "peaceful solution".
I-Here-555@reddit
Do you expect them to say "oh, sorry, we'll dismantle the state of Israel where most of us were born and go wherever our ancestors came from (or stay to be massacred by people we've been massacring until yesterday)"?
Realistically, facts on the ground are often established by violence. It has been like that throughout human history and not just in the case of Palestine. You can't undo all the injustices and consequences decades later, only seek peace looking forward.
Hopefully they'll eventually agree on a stable two-state solution that nobody will be happy about, that will not fix every past injustice, but that will establish a lasting peace. Arafat and Peres/Rabin have started that process, but unfortunately it was derailed.
Maximum-Hall-5614@reddit
Palestinians do not have bloodlust in the way Israelis do.
Palestinian existence is a threat to the state of Israel.
The state (and people) of Israel are a threat to the existence of Palestinian people.
States do not have any rights in the way that all humans have rights. And despite the insistence of Israelis, Palestinians *are* humans.
meister2983@reddit
This is objectively false and if anything Palestinian bloodlust is even higher. You see this is wide support of organizations (like Al Qassam Brigades) who manage to kill thousand+ Israelis even if in the process tens of thousands of Palestinians are killed. You see this in the heavy historical use of suicide bombing by said organization. You see this in mass lynchings in their own capital of Israelis.
I literally cannot come to any conclusion other than that palestinians (broadly speaking) have a significantly negative utility function on Israeli lives. Israel i would describe as callous indifference (you don't see the willing to die to kill behavior).
To be clear, a bunch of Arabs existing with roots in Palestine is not a threat. An ideology that believes it has the right to the entire historical mandate of Palestine is a threat.
I fail to see why. It's a threat to their expansive ideology, but there's been multiple times they could just get strong autonomy without occupation and call it a day. (Of course they implicitly rejected the offers).
That's simply not true. A state is a manifestation of collective self determination and it can infringe on some human rights of outsiders. Like denying then entry.
meister2983@reddit
Any non moronic Israeli Jew understands Zionism is part of the problem given the history.
However: * It does not imply the Palestinians are morally right. The Jews in Israel did not invade (80% were born there) and basically all the Palestinians complaining about Israel existing never even lived in Israeli territory. (Note that I reject your analogy given these facts) * Regardless, even if you accept the Palestinians having a moral argument, it doesn't remove the fact that they are an existential threat to Israel and Israel will respond as one would expect a nation to respond to an existential threat
HummusSwipper@reddit
Show me an Israeli judge calling for an eradication of Palestinians
Small-Policy-3859@reddit
They don't have to call for that if they just don't prosecute the literal crimes against humanity/war crimes the IDF commits daily. Actions speak louder than words.
Luniticus@reddit
Netanyahu literally reformed the Israeli judicial system last year to strip power away from the courts that were trying to get in his way.
HummusSwipper@reddit
It's not a judge's role to prosecute though is it?
Your comments comes across spiteful and ignorant, even when you've never been wronged by Israelis in the first place. I doubt you have ever even met anyone from Israel.
Small-Policy-3859@reddit
Do I need to be wronged personally by the nazi's to be able to say 'I think the nazi's were the baddies'?
Inb4 'not everyone in Israel supports the regime or their actions'. Yes. I know that. The regime surely does tho, and as long as no actual change happens the courts are part of that regime. Settlers can also just do whatever they want and they barely get punished for it. Sure, there are some good Apples probably, but in general the whole Israeli system is rotten to the core, infested by blatant Zionist supremacy.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Do you call Chinese people Nazis for what they're doing to the Uyghur? Do you call Russians Nazis for what they're doing in Ukraine? Do you call Lebanese Nazis because of the apartheid system they have against Palestinians in Lebanon?
The answer to all of this is no. So I'm sorry but I'm not impressed by your bigoted rambling, and I find your accusations to be nothing more than a projection.
Small-Policy-3859@reddit
Huh? No, i'm calling nazi's nazi's? Get out of here with your strawman.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Where's the strawman? You're not bothered by other countries doing objectively bad or even worse things than Israel to human beings, even to Palestinians. I conclude you're an edgy teenager trying to find a place to fit in since you were neglected by your parents.
I hope you grow up and find healthier coping mechanisms, maybe go see a therapist. Goodbye.
Small-Policy-3859@reddit
Another strawman lmao. I'm very bothered by anyone/any state doing crimes against humanity/war crimes, don't put words in my mouth. But here the subject is Israël/Palestine.
Nice, a few ad hominems on top of that.
Zionists really just can not Bring any good arguments to the table (ofc they can't, there are no actual rational/good arguments for zionism) so they resort to this. It's laughable.
JrSoftDev@reddit
This is beyond.... I'm speechless. FREE PALESTINE!!!!!!!!!!
Stubbs94@reddit
I am absolutely shocked that the state committing genocide and having pro rape marches would commit human rights abuses.
Level_Hour6480@reddit
You don't understand: When Hamas does rapes and holds people underground it's an atrocity, but Israel is "The most moral army in the world" so when they do it, it's moral.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
Yes, but only Israeli's are the chosen people, not anyone else, especially not those Palestinians (gasp). Obviously Israeli's have the right to do whatever they wish to them.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
That is indeed the Zionist belief…
OutblastEUW@reddit
could you share more about these marches? havent heard of them
IsNotPolitburo@reddit
I assume they're talking about the angry mobs marching to demand the release of the war criminals caught gang raping hostages at the Sde Teiman concentration camp.
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InternationalShine85@reddit
Yeah I had to practice my surprise pikachu face for this
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
We don't have to be surprised by something, to be angry and demand change.
Stubbs94@reddit
I agree that is why I believe Israel needs to be completely isolated from the rest of the world until it ends the apartheid system. BDS till Palestinians get full human rights.
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
I agree, brother. Your country is doing well on this front. We must continue to put pressure on our governments and organisations.
Stubbs94@reddit
Unfortunately, Ireland still is a major trade partner with the Apartheid state.
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
Will have to keep pushing. Apartheid South Africa took time as well.
Stubbs94@reddit
100%
Stippings@reddit
Just genocidecountry things...
Dry-Season-522@reddit
Well if Israel had a martyr fund that matches the Palestinian one, they wouldn't have this problem, is that what you endorse?
KaiBahamut@reddit
Does Israel pay out when it's soldiers are killed or crippled in the line of (forced) duty? That's a martyrs fund yanno.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
And also when civilians are the victims of Palestinian terrorism, which includes Israeli terrorists settlers hurt by Palestinians. Baruch Goldstein’s wife, for example.
Stippings@reddit
Instead of a martyr fund Israel has mandatory subscription.
"Go protect our settlers doing heinous shit in the West Bank, or face jail time!"
Soo much better, and they still do this in the article on top of that.
mendokusei15@reddit
If you are gonna go with whataboutism, at least try to make some Sense.
waiver@reddit
Sounds less like a jail and more like a dungeon
RetardedGaming@reddit
The ACTUAL hostages
ionetic@reddit
“It is said that no one truly knows a nation until one has been inside its jails. A nation should not be judged by how it treats its highest citizens, but its lowest ones.” - Nelson Mandela
HummusSwipper@reddit
Well... Palestinians are not Israeli citizens so we can't judge Israel based on this?
sheytanelkebir@reddit
Perhaps you need it reworded to "people under it's militarys jurisdiction " (i.e. occupation).
HummusSwipper@reddit
Why should I? Ask Nelson Mandela
sheytanelkebir@reddit
Spirit Vs letter. You're using the fact that 80% of Palestinians are not granted Israeli citizenship (itself a crime against them)... As the reason why it's ok to dehumanise them?
Zipz@reddit
It’s a crime to not give people citizenship to a country they don’t want to be apart of ?
A huh
sheytanelkebir@reddit
They were ethnically cleansed. It was never offered to them
Zipz@reddit
Weird because Palestinians do live in Israel.
How did they get there again ?
sheytanelkebir@reddit
How did the ones not there anymore get where they are, is the question
Zipz@reddit
Palestinians were kicked out by Arab forces because they told them to leave while they try to kill all the Jews in 48.
Then they weren’t allowed back because the ones who left were the ones who wanted to kill all Jews.
Let alone Palestinians who are isreali citizens have more rights than any citizen of the Middle East.
It’s funny you clearly don’t know what you are talking about
sheytanelkebir@reddit
I suggest broadening your source of information
Zipz@reddit
In noticed how you didn’t argue against anything I said
HummusSwipper@reddit
Why is it a crime and where did you get this random ass number (80%)? When did I dehumanize anyone? You're just putting words in my mouth and making sh.. up
sheytanelkebir@reddit
It's a crime because most were ethnically cleansed and put under military occupation for generations.
PartySr@reddit
We can. The god chosen people are kidnaping people from another country. The so called god chosen people are a bunch of shit heads.
Zipz@reddit
Hey I got to ask
When Jews says they are gods chosen people what do they mean by that?
PartySr@reddit
Israeli. And they believe that they are allowed to toy with people's life. Killing all the Palestinians or removing them from their land is a common opinion among Israeli.
Zipz@reddit
So what you are telling me is you have no idea and you just made up an uneducated opinion got it
All it means is they have a convent with god
I like how you tried to twist it into something dirty that makes Jews seem like they think they are superior to everyone else
HummusSwipper@reddit
'chosen by god' does not mean what you think it means my guy. When Jews say they were chosen by god it means they were chosen to take on the responsibilities God imposed on them. This responsibilities are the ten commandments. That's all it means. Now consider how much hate you're holding against people you don't even understand.
poet-imbecile@reddit
We're upset about both, but we're 100x more upset with Israel because it's doing 100x the atrocities and has far greater power as the majority group in a colonial apartheid state.
Does this adequately scratch the "both sides" itch for you?
HummusSwipper@reddit
Ever heard of “Nothing someone says before the word 'but' really counts.”? That word vomit "colonial apartheid state" is just the icing on the fruitcake. You were never upset about anything done to Jews, and your performative outrage for attention is sad to watch. Buzz off.
poet-imbecile@reddit
I genuinely am upset about the hostages.
You argue in bad faith, and are not worth anyone's time.
Good luck.
PartySr@reddit
Yet the Israeli claim that they are god chosen people while abusing the Palestinians, and Hamas are a terrorist organization. Are you saying that Israel is the same as Hamas? Cuz they act like Hamas while also claiming they are god chosen people.
HummusSwipper@reddit
What does this have to do with my comment? You're just blabbering
LineOfInquiry@reddit
They’ve been under Israeli occupation for 60 years, they’re part of Israeli society regardless of whether they are legally classified as citizens. It’s like how the us treated native Americans before 1928.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Lol unfortunately that's not how things work. In the Judea&Samaria Palestinians have their own government with their own public services. Israel left Gaza in 2005.
KaiBahamut@reddit
*West Bank.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
The PA is an Israeli puppet and Israel has defacto control over Gaza and especially the West Bank. Not to mention areas C and B and East Jerusalem.
Legally the US didn’t technically own tribal reservations either, but we saw how that went.
HummusSwipper@reddit
How convenient it is to basically argue Palestinians are hopeless infants incapable of controlling their own fates. That's just called racism of low expectations.
Regardless of your mental gymnastics and covert racism, Palestinians in Judea & Samaria are not citizens of Israel hence OP's quote is silly and irrelevant.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
“How conventient it is to basically argue that native Americans are hopelessly infants incapable of controlling their own fates. That’s just called racism of low expectations.”
-you if you lived in 1900
They only aren’t equal citizens because Israel refuses to recognize them as such. Citizen is a legal term that can be weaponized against people, not a fact of the world. South aftica did this same thing too with bantustans.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Huh? I said that in response to you infantalizing Palestinians, so if anything it's you who's stuck in the 1900. Did you forget the context of the conversation?
I don't understand why you're blaming Israel for not handing out citizenship to Palestinians who don't deserve it, and comparing it to bantustans is historically illiterate.
HummusSwipper@reddit
Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank have not been under occupation for the last 60 years. What are you talking about?
KaiBahamut@reddit
That makes it worse. Kidnapping another nations people and abusing them. Why, that's an act of war if I ever saw one.
rattleandhum@reddit
jesus christ man, what happened to your soul?
HummusSwipper@reddit
What happened to it?
Mohwi@reddit
That doesn’t make it any better
Airowird@reddit
A medieval dungeon.
You can't call that a prison, it's a dungeon, and not the fun, kinky kind.
Between the tribalism, colonialism, apartheid and land-theft, Israel is a medieval feudal kingdom 8 centuries behind on the rest of the world.
breadgluvs@reddit
The tunnellees have become the tunnellers, in a shocking(?) twist to an already complex topic. They should connect the tunnels systems and name it MLK Jr. Blvd.
stprnn@reddit
what complex topic? XD
the terrorist state of israel has 3500 hostages , its pretty simple.
meister2983@reddit
And what are they demanding to release them?
HummusSwipper@reddit
3500 hostages for every year they waited for their promised land, am I right? XDD
breadgluvs@reddit
It all really depends on who tunneled first imho
jknotts@reddit
all the tunnels you hear about in gaza? yeah turns out those were actually dug by Israel. No irony here.
HummusSwipper@reddit
tell me more
smegabass@reddit
Inhumanity on display. Hope this quote makes it to the genocide and occupation museum one day.
Fk Israel.
Anton_Pannekoek@reddit
This is extreme torture. The worst kind of torture is psychological. People don't appreciate just how brutal this is.
And it's totally unnecessary. It seems like Israel is torturing people just for the sake of torturing them. We really need to start acting on this crazy state. It's a reflection of the depravity of the West and its leaders that this is allowed to happen.
SajCrypto@reddit
We need to get the Zionist state to release ALL the thousands of Palestinian hostages it holds in illegal detention, without cause or trial, sometimes for YEARS!! ...Men, Women AND CHILDREN!!
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