Blame game over Air India crash goes on
Posted by BT1982WT@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 240 comments
Blame game over Air India crash goes on
Posted by BT1982WT@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 240 comments
Blame game over Air India crash goes on
bobblebob100@reddit
What should be about aviation safety is turning political.
Its not about blaming, its about finding out the truth so we can mitigate the issue in future
Monkeyfeng@reddit
This is why nationalism is dangerous. Same thing that goes on in China.
zhumama2615@reddit
Not everything is about China…
FrankReynoldsCPA@reddit
Oh look a Chinese nationalist demanding people not talk negatively about China
zhumama2615@reddit
Aviation sub, better focus on topic. Plenty sub for China or politics or whatever, don’t you think? A random comment unrelated to aviation… go to China sub to criticise China as much as you want!
peterpanic32@reddit
I would generally agree if it weren't for the fact that China Eastern Airlines Flight 5735 is directly, 100% relevant and the evidently politically motivated refusal to release the proposal happened around the same time as this crash.
zhumama2615@reddit
I replied to a comment only says: “that is why nationalism is dangerous, same situation in China.“ No details, not context. Not helpful.
Your comment is related and detailed. However I find it is not helpful either. To certain degree, it is even disrespectful to the Air Indian victims’ family. They want to know why their loved ones are no longer with them. They are still waiting for answers. Who gives a flying fig what happened in China?
In my mind we should give the day to them first and foremost. Criticise China somewhere else.
peterpanic32@reddit
This thread isn't about the Air India victims and the feelings of their family members, it's a commentary thread on political interference in air safety - specifically political interference into the risk of pilot murder-su!cide due to fear of negative political / social fallout.
I understand that people love to pile on China, but this is a valid corollary.
Avia_NZ@reddit
And the US
roguemenace@reddit
You have an example of a US crash investigation being derailed by politics?
d3vmaxx@reddit
If it’s Boeing, I ain’t going.
This dude is a US propaganda bubble. Boeing MBA company is directly responsible for loss of lives due to their shortcuts for profit making. Stop blaming ethopian airways as developing country training when it is not.
Also the FAA was right with Boeing.
They get all preventive treatment from US carriers and US politicians.
Take a seat.
HappyLittle_Cloud@reddit
Lion air 610 and Ethiopian 302. Where the us was the only agency not grounding the Max and not criticising its design until the second crash.
goro-n@reddit
Ethiopian 302 was preventable. Per the NTSB report: “Appropriate crew management of the event, per the procedures that existed at the time, would have allowed the crew to recover the airplane even when faced with the uncommanded nose-down inputs.”
eswifttng@reddit
And without the uncommanded nose-down system due to the faulty implementation of MCAS, none of that would have happened.
Zrkkr@reddit
Is MCAS at fault? Yes. Was the crash preventable by the crew? Yes.
Doesn't excuse Boeing of having a plane that crashes itself, but the crew still had the ability to control the situation.
RandomNightmar3@reddit
No they didn't, because of the airspeed the Ethiopian reached, they were just too fast and impossible to recover.
Don't read CNN or Reddit, just read the hundreds of pages of the official report, then we can talk.
roguemenace@reddit
The crew could have (and should have) disabled the auto throttle, which would have stopped them from over speeding the plane and reduced the aerodynamic load on the trim tab.
goro-n@reddit
The first officer on Ethiopian had only 200 hours flying a 737. Even Sully was critical of that and said commercial pilots should have more experience before being allowed to be a first officer.
roguemenace@reddit
Lion Air 610 was the same. Hell it happened on the previous flight and the crew followed the checklist.
Jaggedmallard26@reddit
There is a reason why it happened to developing world airlines with already questionable safety records. Not to absolve Boeing of guilt for having a single point of failure that if it fails will make the aircraft try to fly itself into the ground but a competent crew could have stopped both crashes.
NordschleifeLover@reddit
Well, the second crew really tried to stop it, but it wasn't as easy and simple as you're trying to portray it.
roguemenace@reddit
If they hadn't left the throttles at takeoff (a memory item for runaway trim) they could have saved it, of it they had followed the emergency AD after the Lion Air crash, or if they had just left the trim switches cutout.
AdamN@reddit
That’s not even vaguely true - Ethiopian is a global caliber airline. It is true though that some of the safety upgrades were not purchased but that’s on Boeing for even allowing such an option.
dw444@reddit
The second incident involved an airline known for its high training and safety standards.
sox412@reddit
Ok but back this up. Boeing made an aircraft that points the nose down until it smashes into the earth
goro-n@reddit
They made a business decision to rush out a jet to compete with A320 Neo instead of designing an all-new jet. So they ended up with these massive engines that naturally caused the plane to pitch upward, leading to potential stalls. Pitching the nose down is what you do to recover from a stall. So the aeronautical principles were sound. The problem was that MCAS was relying on data from a single sensor and Boeing didn’t tell pilots it was there. But if pilots followed procedures they would disable MCAS and regain full manual control of the plane.
sox412@reddit
But a product like that should have never been released. Ultimately you cannot release an aircraft that will be flown across the world with such an extreme design flaw
wompdompers@reddit
There’s a good book on this, wasted warnings, it’s all about the Ethiopian crash and the airline culture.
discombobulated38x@reddit
To be fair in the case of Lion Air their safety record, most due to their pilots/MX, was so bad that they'd been refused IATA membership and also banned from flying in the EU, so at least with the first crash there was a basis for suspicion initially falling on Lion Air.
And no, nobody grounded the type before the second crash. The first country to ground it was China, 24hrs after the second crash.
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NSRedditShitposter@reddit
Remember back in February when they were blaming a woman pilot for causing a crash?
roguemenace@reddit
Sometimes pilots crash planes and sometimes the pilot is a woman. By all reports from the (Canadian) investigation her and the captain flew it into the ground at way too high of a sink rate
It didn't crash because she was a woman and afaik no investigation made that claim.
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Zrkkr@reddit
They're talking about general US politics
OnceReturned@reddit
Are you saying this based on anything that has actually happened in real life?
Constant-Arm5379@reddit
Yeah the 737 Max crashes
Monkeyfeng@reddit
Correct
Excellent_Ad_4427@reddit
And USA under DJT
WesternBlueRanger@reddit
See China Eastern Airlines Flight 5735. The final report hasn't been released, and probably never will because the Chinese government has said releasing the report would "endanger national security and societal stability", and all news of the crash is heavily censored in China.
deltajvliet@reddit
What's funny is that's essentially an admission. I'm surprised they didn't just stay mum about it.
andrewia@reddit
They can't, because that would imply Boeing or CFM have an issue, and NHTSA (or the other government agencies) would defend them. This is the safest way for them to bury it.
TickTockPick@reddit
The judge is correct in this instance. We simply don't know enough to start blaming individual(s)/equipment. And if we do determine that it was one of the pilots, how on earth do we find out which one did it.
FutureHoo@reddit
You’d be surprised how advanced forensic analysis can be . There are multiple mics in the cockpit, it could be possible to triangulate
Plebius-Maximus@reddit
I wonder how long before cockpit cameras (or at least cameras covering certain instrument clusters) become a thing
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
How exactly is a camera supposed to help improve safety? What relevant details will it tell you that you can’t get from FDR’s and CVR’s?
Plebius-Maximus@reddit
Well I could flick a switch when you're occupied and then ask why you flicked the switch. You could say you didn't and it'd be the truth.
Or I could notice a switch is flicked when it shouldn't have been and ask you why you did it. You could say you didn't and it would be a lie.
A camera would show who did what, while FDR/CVR can't distinguish between the above situations
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
So clearly the FDR picks up the switch movement, the cause of the crash is pilot murder/suicide. How does knowing which dead pilot did it increase safety or change the outcome in any way, shape or form? Are you going to change any procedures based on that information? Is the plane not safe? Are you going to put the burnt up corpse in prison? Is there not any way to investigate or ascertain which pilot is most likely to have done such a heinous crime based on life events or other information?
How does that justify the billions of dollars in costs to modify and maintain and train on these new systems and how does that investment prevent the next mishap?
Safety investigations aren’t there to provide gee whizz answers to redditors, they’re there to save lives. I don’t see how this would make anyone any safer.
Plebius-Maximus@reddit
Not with complete certainty, no.
There could be a situation like this where people survive. So in that case I'd like the attempted murderer to go to prison, rather than a perpetual guessing game for who did it.
My man, a camera that automatically records to a secure location requires fuck all training for any of the flight crew. It could be a completely automated thing that would overwrite every 48/72 hours, meaning that you'd only have the last few flights recorded so if there were issues you could review footage, if not it would be overwritten. Modification wouldn't be particularly expensive either. There's no way this would roll into the billions, it could even be put in place on new aircraft while old wouldn't have it until their scheduled equipment upgrades in X years time.
Cute.
It would make people safer by establishing what exactly went on, and which pilot killed themselves and murdered hundreds at the same time. Which would allow us to review what was going on with the pilot at the time, and if any preventative steps could be missed. Which we currently don't know, so it could happen again.
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
Here’s a crazy idea, you look at the personal life of the crew and you see one who was recently divorced from a cheating spouse and dealing with the death of their mother and probably other red flags and you can make a damn good guess and then factor that into the behavior modeling. Or you just look at the thousands of non pilots who committed suicide and then use that data. Why would you only look at the small number pilot suicides and extrapolate when there are so many other examples to use?
And you dramatically underestimate the cost and testing that goes into any aircraft modification. Every model of aircraft needs to be tested and certified and installed, and then costs are going to go up 100x because it’s now “aviation grade” materials. Then you need to pull a plane off the line and stop it from moving paid passengers and cargo to sit there, which is $$$ lost, and pay maintainers $$$ to install it. That process across tens of thousands of commercial aircraft is going to add up. Then parts are going to break and need replaced, and how will the MEL work? If it’s safety equipment a malfunction is going to ground the aircraft. Now you’re paying passengers for hotels and rebooking them. That all costs $$$$. So yes it will certainly get into the billions of dollars across the industry. And for zero increase in safety. What a great investment!
Plebius-Maximus@reddit
Here's an even crazier fact - it's not always that obvious.
And a "damn good guess" is still a guess.
Non pilots tend to commit suicide alone. They don't take hundreds of innocent people with them, so they're an entirely different group in an entirely different scenario under entirely different pressures. The data is not directly transferable.
This is an issue that can be solved by removing bullshit steps to certify an item that doesn't need to be any different to one used in other applications. You don't need an "aviation grade" camera. And there are plenty of planes with cameras in certain areas (infernally and externally) already. Part of the procurement system being flawed (especially in the US) isn't a reason not to make changes.
It's a reason to fix the flawed system.
This is why I said it could be installed on new aircraft or alongside already scheduled upgrades, when the plane would be out of use anyway.
Because what's essentially a glorified dashcam is known to break frequently. Oh wait, no it's not
Sure in an exceptionally poorly managed worst case scenario like you've dreamt up. Same as any other modification.
However it doesn't need to cost nearly that much.
I quite literally highlighted that the increase in safety is proving who caused an incident so you can be certain - and then know what to look out for to avoid repeating it. Rather than guessing based on factors that may or may not actually point the finger in the right direction?
You can pretend not to understand, but the benefit is obvious.
ZippyDan@reddit
It seems strange to me that you are so vehemently against adding a camera to the cockpit. You're against:
?
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
In countries with strong unions it will take a very long while.
NeglectedDuty@reddit
Yes, unions hate accountability
AdriftSpaceman@reddit
No. They hate cameras being used arbitrarily by employers and they have very good reasons to do so. There's also the very reasonable fear of leaked footage from accidents having nefarious impacts on pilot's and crew's families, or themselves, even if they aren't to blame for the accident. Imagine an accident and losing a loved one and having their last desperate moments leaked online or to the press? Or dealing with the fallout of a crash because some random YouTuber found something he believes isn't right in the footage? Or airlines using footage to control every little behavior of the crew during flights?
This accident and the Chinese Boeing one were, most likely, caused by deliberate action of one of the pilots. It's possible to stablish that during a good investigation without footage You can't prevent that with camera and cockpit surveillance, you do that with better pay, better working conditions, health care, mental health awareness, culture change and many more actions taken outside the cockpit.
NeglectedDuty@reddit
You typed up a long response which just proves the point.
Video footage would be augmented by audio on accident analysis - same arguments against body cameras for cops, videos in buses and trucks - they have figured it out despite massive union obstruction to safety standards and accountability. No matter what there will be conspiracy theories and other things like that.
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
You’re comparing apples to potatoes here.
Police need video for accountability, chain of custody of evidence in criminal trials, and obviously they can move around outside of vehicles etc.
Trucks don’t have data and voice recorders showing exactly what’s happening, and the cost of standing up a full airline disaster safety investigation and number of trucks on the road outweighs the benefits from switching to an airline style system.
What level of safety would cameras provide that the current CVR’s and FDR’s don’t have?
NeglectedDuty@reddit
Nope. Police have dash cams, audio recordings, and also multiple witnesses at the scene and in their squads. Everyone can make the same arguments but of course each tries to claim they are different and exempt. Classic behavior and ways to make excuses and skirt accountability.
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
You’re claiming a police officer has never been able to lie and cover up their actions?
NeglectedDuty@reddit
Nope. That proves why cameras make sense, just like they would in the cockpit.
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
Do cops have black boxes that tell investigators exactly what is going on and taking snapshots dozens of times every second? Do they have the economic incentives to have investigative teams trained and ready to go to figure out exactly what happened maybe once or twice a year?
It makes sense to have black boxes and investigative teams for some jobs, and cameras suffice for most others. Both is just overkill.
HanekawasTiddies@reddit
Yeah 100%. The only downside I see is that if there are cameras, the crash footage from the cockpit will be all over the internet and media and would be a lot more traumatic for the friends and family compared to only the audio.
Mr-R--California@reddit
Or just ask people who knew them who’s talking?
FutureHoo@reddit
That wouldn’t prove who flipped the switches
Mr-R--California@reddit
Nothing will prove it. Occam’s razor says the one who was asked why he cutoff the switches is probably the one who cutoff the switches. But people love for there to be twists and turns in the story so they’ll argue otherwise
ZippyDan@reddit
A camera in the cockpit would prove it.
Turbulent_Cod_9333@reddit
Except not in this case. The PF who was the FO would have both hands on the yoke for rotation. No where near the fuel switches. After rotation the PF/FO finally realized after 10 seconds the fuel was cutoff and asked the captain in a panic. Which the captain denied, calmly. A humans natural instinct is to lie. I am fairly certain as an armchair NTSB agent that the captain was the one caused this event.
goro-n@reddit
A reputable Italian paper published more detailed transcripts that said the first officer asked why the switches were cutoff and started panicking. He was also PF so that made it possible for the captain to potentially flip switches while PF was focused on the takeoff.
https://www.corriere.it/economia/trasporti/aerei/25_luglio_18/air-india-comandante-trappola-2db9160e-9395-4daf-8746-fa0278faaxlk.shtml
Pugs-r-cool@reddit
That link doesn't have a transcript of anything, the quotes they give are just rephrasing the preliminary report, and their only citations are " two Western sources"...
I'll wait until the final report is published.
bobblebob100@reddit
We seem to live in an age where people love a cover up and conspiracy. There was a good article ages ago that ive lost the link to that explains why people believe in conspiracies despite all the evidence pointing the other way.
Chronigan2@reddit
You lost the link to the story that backs up your argument? How convenient....
bobblebob100@reddit
Ironic post
But anyway i did some Googling and found it https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2023/06/why-people-believe-conspiracy-theories
Chronigan2@reddit
When challenged you easily find the link you stated you had lost? How convenient...
bobblebob100@reddit
Ive no idea what your on about. I assume your board and trying to amuse yourself
goro-n@reddit
“No one can blame the pilot of the Dreamliner for the crash in June that killed 260, the Supreme Court told the pilot's father today and sent notices to the Centre, the civil aviation regulator (DGCA), and the Aircraft Accident Investigation Bureau (AAIB)”
Sounds like the Supreme Court is jumping the gun and fudging the investigation.
bobblebob100@reddit
The only ones who seem to be blaming anyone is the media. The preliminary reports simply spells out the facts as we knew them at the time. The media put 2 and 2 together
deltajvliet@reddit
There was a crazy scene from Tokyo Vice about an American journalist reporting in Japan.
Fact 1: Man found with a sword stuck through him
Fact 2: He is now dead
Reporter's initial story: Man killed
Japanese newspaper and police: Woah woah woah, you cannot extrapolate to such libelous and inflammatory claims. You have no idea if he fell on that sword or it was put there after a heart attack! Until the police say there has been a murder, you cannot report that.
SarniltheRed@reddit
Egypt Air 990
Dry_Complaint_3569@reddit
☝️
electri-cute@reddit
This is the joke India has become and has been in the making for the past 10 years. Hyper nationalism combined with superiority complex plus ignorance about the world and literally no world view and this is the result and its very potent.
Silent_Rule_S@reddit
Anyone who has worked with Indians know this. They say "Yes we will do it" to everything. Then it's all about blame game when something goes wrong.
Melech333@reddit
"On Friday, a judge in India's Supreme Court insisted that nobody could blame the aircraft's captain."
Great. A judge ruling on whether or not an investigative team can go where the investigation leads them - or not.
👌🌠🤪
ScaldyBogBalls@reddit
Reflects terribly on their political establishment. One of the two men in the cockpit killed hundreds of people. No mechanical or technical fault has ever been evidenced and the flight and instrument log show clear as day that the fuel switches were disabled, simultaneously, at the worst possible moment. They're trying to cover up murder to save face.
kmohame2@reddit
If you read the article it says FAS director says that electrical fault could have caused the issue and he also says the preliminary report was inadequate.
peterpanic32@reddit
He's a non-technical former Boeing employee who worked on an entirely different plane and has made a lucrative career out of publicly criticizing Boeing over anything and everything. He's not a credible source nor is that a credible organization.
And a small child could have snuck into the plane's electrical systems and Gremlin-style compromised the aircraft. But there's no evidence to suggest that and it's unreasonable to believe that would be likely.
What the evidence does suggest to the near exclusion of all other possibilities is that one of the pilots intentionally switched the engines to cutoff.
Of course it was, it was a preliminary report. It's not the final report.
ScaldyBogBalls@reddit
Sure, an electrical fault tripped on both switches at the exact moment it would've been fatal and completely coincidentally the sensor measuring the switch state also malfunctioned at that precise moment to suggest the switches were moved, then moved back.
You understand that's impossible? clearly you don't. Somebody tripped those switches, not even simultaneously, a second apart.
kmohame2@reddit
I understand and I don’t know how an electrical fault could have physically tripped the switches. But when FAS director who was former senior manager at Boeing says this, then there’s perhaps more to it that we don’t understand.
"There were so many of what we consider electrical oddities on that plane, that for them to come out and to all intents and purposes direct the blame to the pilots without exhaustively going through and examining potential system failures, we just thought was flat out wrong," he says.
rkba260@reddit
The switches cannot be moved by an electrical fault, they are mechanically gated by a spring, one that is more than sufficient to keep the switches in their intended position. There is no electrical fault that can move these switches, EVER.
Your making assumptions about systems based on intentioanlly misleading information.
Source, I am a pilot who currently flies Boeing products.
ScaldyBogBalls@reddit
Regular poster in /r/indianmuslims
Seriously, it's pathetic. You're behaving shamefully.
kmohame2@reddit
?? What has my religious or national affiliation got anything to do with this?? I’m not denying pilots did this. I’m not saying the pilots did this. All I’m saying is we don’t know enough to make any conclusive judgements. What is rather shameful is your behaviour and response.
ScaldyBogBalls@reddit
Everything. It's extremely transparent. Shame!
CompetitionLimp6082@reddit
An electrical fault could not have physically repositioned the switches. The voice recorder data tells us the switches were physically in the custody position. Ergo…
FutureHoo@reddit
How does it reflect terribly on the political establishment? The Supreme Court aren’t wrong here. Nowhere in the report does it conclude the pilots flipped the switch. Nowhere is the Supreme Court saying the pilots didn’t do it either, all that was stated is that the pilot cannot currently be blamed for the crash as a direct result of the pilot’s father filing a petition with the court.
Is it highly likely one of the pilots did it? Yes. Is it a factual conclusion at this time given the preliminary report? Absolutely not.
peterpanic32@reddit
They're 100% wrong.
"you should not carry this burden that your son is being blamed. Nobody can blame him for anything"
They didn't say "at this time".
You absolutely can blame the pilot for this. Pilots are frequently the cause of crashes, and all the evidence suggests that's the case here.
Correct, because they made no conclusions at all. It just presents evidence that makes that the almost certain outcome when they do actually make conclusions.
They did in fact say that, yes.
They said "Nobody can blame him for anything".
If anything, it's a bad article because it elevates conspiratorial nonsense and quotes compromised !d!ots like Ed Pierson. Not because it reported on the actual words of the Supreme Court justice.
ScaldyBogBalls@reddit
A pilot flipped the switches, beyond a doubt. The fact that this has wound up in court is absurd, damning. The entire legal proceeding is an attempt to muddy the waters on mass murder.
FutureHoo@reddit
I agree that the pilot flipping the switches is the most likely scenario, however as it stands right now, there is no report concluding that is the case and we’re unlikely to get one until early next year.
This hasn’t wound up ‘in court’ either. A Supreme Court judge responded somewhat off the record to a plea the pilot’s dad made about the media jumping to blame the pilot. Which is fair given what we know at this time. There isn’t a ‘legal proceeding’, in fact the court has backed the report saying the report was fair and transparent.
We and the media are free to jump to conclusions but the courts can’t come out and say ‘oh yeah the pilot committed mass murder’ during an active investigation. This is basic law 101
ScaldyBogBalls@reddit
Switches of that design do not flip themselves. We know enough to say without a doubt what happened.
FutureHoo@reddit
Again, there is no official conclusion stating this yet. The courts cannot speculate no matter how obvious it may seem. I’m shocked that people on this subreddit can’t understand this.
ibarmy@reddit
lol. typical bjp sympathiser
FutureHoo@reddit
lol. Shame on me for expecting better discourse on an aviation subreddit, I guess
m-in@reddit
But who exactly is saving face? Internally in India everyone knows that things are corrupt. Externally too. There’s no face to save??
ScaldyBogBalls@reddit
Given the dozens and dozens of Indian posters showing up desperate to deflect from this act of mass murder, clearly that instinct exists. Unfortunately the opposite will occur, the attempts to obfuscate this act will further damage the reputation of India and it's aviation sector.
peppermanfries@reddit
Everything is true here. Pls remember we have more people than Europe and NA combined. Every viewpoint you see will make you feel like that's what the country actually believes.
No it won't because there will be equal opposition from the other side as well. Don't try to put india into a box, it's too big and chaotic for one viewpoint or opinion to be considered the majority view.
Jaggedmallard26@reddit
The weirdest thing is that pilot murder suicide is the least damaging thing for Air India's reputation. If it turns out to be the cause then it means there was no incompetence at any level just one man doing an act of evil in a way that has happened in major Western airlines.
sourcefourmini@reddit
It’s not about Air India’s reputation; it’s about the perceived national reputation in a culture that heavily stigmatizes suicide. Same reason Egypt will never admit one of their pilots deliberately brought down Egypt Air 990.
gorbot@reddit
I think if it was a choice between blaming a pilot you hired and entrusted to fly hundreds of lives, and blaming the non-Indiam anufacturer who has recently ran into issues, i'd pick the latter if i were the leader of the airline or India
But it should be objective regardless of what's better, which isn't seemingly happening, which stinks
greatlakesailors@reddit
Not simultaneously. The interval between the two shutoff switches being flipped, one second, was almost exactly the amount of time it takes to move your hand from the #1 switch to the #2 switch and lift its lock.
One electrical fault that took out both would be logged as simultaneous or nearly so. And a simultaneous shutoff would have strongly implied an electrical fault (one person cannot physically grasp both switches at once). The odds of an electrical fault exactly matching the timing expected of a manual shutdown are... not identically zero, but very very low indeed.
sayitonmyface@reddit
the way you say it sounds like either you’re part of the investigation or you got an iq of albert einstein to figure things
ScaldyBogBalls@reddit
No, I've just reviewed the available data, which illustrates beyond any doubt that someone in the cockpit tripped both fuel cutoffs, deliberately. There are no other factors to even consider. Those switches don't disengage themselves (they have to be pulled up to be moved at all, it can't happen accidentally).
Blythyvxr@reddit
Why the fuck is a court getting involved in an ongoing investigation? The preliminary report stated the facts that had been identified to date. Specifically:
In the cockpit voice recording, one of the pilots is heard asking the other why did he cutoff. The other pilot responded that he did not do so.
Those two paragraphs state:
The report does not state what happened or why, only the facts that had been identified.
It's very clear what could be inferred from this, but the preliminary report does not make that conclusion - that's not it's purpose.
The BBC article is disappointing - while it states the purpose of the preliminary report, it then quotes several people who state that "it's biased" or "inadequate" or "flawed". Nowhere does it include anyone with actual experience with aircrash investigations, or any reference to the obligations of the Chicago convention.
bobblebob100@reddit
People want to blame Boeing as Boeing have had, let's say a troubled few years. But stats speak for themselves, they're still an extremely safe aircraft and the data in this investigation point towards pilot error (intentional or not)
But people love a conspiracy
TickTockPick@reddit
The data points to both pilots denying that they used the switch... Anything else, like you just did, is speculation.
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CompetitionLimp6082@reddit
People lie.
The data indicates the switches were moved.
TickTockPick@reddit
and components break...
CompetitionLimp6082@reddit
Gravity doesn’t reverse itself such that a latched switch lifts itself out of a detent, moves, the pushes itself down into a second detent—let alone 2x in a row. It is literally impossible according to physics.
bobblebob100@reddit
The data points to the switch being physical moved to the off position on both engines. A technical issue cannot magically lift up the switch and pull it back to the off position. It has to be physical done
Question is why
Great_Comparison462@reddit
"Boeing have had, let's say a troubled few years" - that might be the biggest understatement of the decade.
Ok-Gazelle4595@reddit
Last part is why it’s being politicized, India doesn’t want to have to dig and see if the individual who turned off the fuel pumps was depressed or suicidal
bobblebob100@reddit
Mental illness used to have a massive stigma attached to it. That appears to be largely going away as mental illness is more talked about and understood
Not being Indian, is that not the case over there?
Ok-Gazelle4595@reddit
Knowing their culture/political mindset if they would view it as a hit to their country if this was the case, thus why they want to push blame anywhere but the pilots so that can’t come out
kocafegdf@reddit
Also to note, the former CM of Gujarat was also on the plane ( was a part of the current ruling party of the country BJP )
RadlogLutar@reddit
In India, from day one, its almost concensus that the pilot is innocent and Boeing had an error. Tbh, I also wanna believe that the cutoff switch was triggered by error and not by any pilots but nobody knows, was it switched off or it turned automatically
Adjutant_Reflex_@reddit
Because, to use one of my favorite quotes, “what you feel is irrelevant” when the facts are clear about what happened.
Pugs-r-cool@reddit
Assuming the details in the report are factual, it's not possible for it to have been anything other than the pilot cutting off fuel. The way the switches are designed it's not possible to accidentally flip them, either. Maybe you want to believe, but there's no factual reason why you should believe.
bobblebob100@reddit
I can see why the family wouldn't want to believe despite the facts pointing the other way. Its not a nice thought to think your loved one not only killed themselves but hundreds of other people
Ok-Gazelle4595@reddit
Tbh I doubt we’ll ever know even if it’s found out the pilot in error was “depressed” or what not unless he wrote a note saying I’m doing this we’ll never truly know if it was an accident or intentional. Either way it’s pilots fault pretty apparent at this point and India is just deflecting
academicgangster@reddit
It is still extremely stigmatized here, particularly by the religious right (which overlaps significantly with the manosphere).
rohmish@reddit
if anything it has been even more a stigmatized topic in the past decade
jorisb@reddit
From the article, aviation safety expert: "I don't want to use the word. I've heard the pilot had some medical history and... it can happen," he said.
If it makes this guy this uncomfortable to discuss suicide, you can bet there a good deal of stigma involved.
G-III-@reddit
That stigma is not going away. It may have temporarily, slightly lessened, but it’s weaponized more than ever as well.
Tame_Trex@reddit
You need to read the article again.
Blythyvxr@reddit
Updated.
Sir_Madfly@reddit
Also disappointing is the fact that the article is authored by their 'International Business Correspondent' rather than a journalist with experience in transport or accidents.
LYuen@reddit
And the court only reiterate the findings from the preliminary report. The article from Reuters made it clear - the court did not make comment from source other than the preliminary report. The BBC article fabricate controversy out of nothing.
this_is_bs@reddit
"Mike Andrews, a lawyer acting on behalf of victims' families, thinks the way in which information has been released has "led people unfairly and inappropriately to blame those pilots without all the information"."
I am thinking it would be in that lawyer's best interests that the airline was at fault rather than a rogue pilot.
This_Elk_1460@reddit
It would still be the airlines responsibility if they allowed a suicidal pilot to fly one of their planes
MaterialInevitable83@reddit
Only if they knew or should’ve known
This_Elk_1460@reddit
It is literally their responsibility to make sure their pilots are in sound mind. Unfortunately the industry at large has decided that if a pilot is having mental health issues the only recourse is to take their jobs away.
peterpanic32@reddit
You can't identify suicidal tendencies by pure willpower unfortunately.
MaterialInevitable83@reddit
If they took reasonable precautions it would be difficult to prove neglt
Competitive_North837@reddit
I strongly suspect the captain had undiagnosed cognitive decline. Early dementia or something and just flipped the switches.
Knowing how relaxed medicals are done in 3rd world countries and the general culture. He just flipped the switches, wasn’t even thinking. I reckon if you spoke to close family or friends, if they were honest, it would Come out
bobblebob100@reddit
Lets just say for a minute it could be an electrical issue like the article suggests (i dont believe it was)
How would an electrical issue manage to move the switch from run to off, considering you need to pull it up first? Its not possible. And then for both to happen within a second of each other too
Great_Comparison462@reddit
What about there being an electrical issue which resulted in the fuel being cut-off, and then the pilots flicked the switches off to see if it could fix the issue?
peterpanic32@reddit
That didn't happen because 1) the engines were working fine up until the fuel switch was flipped, 2) the switches were flipped and left on cutoff for an unreasonable amount of time, and 3) flipping the switches would be well down the checklist of things to try, not the first and not in that situation.
bobblebob100@reddit
Doesnt really line up with what we know from the preliminary report
BarvichF1@reddit
Rats munching on circuitry?
This_Elk_1460@reddit
People are dead dude, it's not funny
BarvichF1@reddit
It's literally not even a joke. It's a massive mystery to everyone. The conversation from the pilots, the switch being cut off. What are the odds of a switch failing?
railker@reddit
Nothing about the conclusion yet states it was a physical switch movement. It's likely, but all we REALLY know is the FDR -recorded- switch movement, or circuit activation. It's a physical switch but electrical signals all the way end to end. Even if something is electrically faulty, the FDR judt records what it's given. Investigators will need CVR audio synchronized to the FDR recording to cross check cockpit sounds to recorded 'actions' to be 110% sure.
bobblebob100@reddit
I thought they found the switch which shows it was in the physical off position? I could be mistaken
railker@reddit
Both switches were found in the RUN position, after they were 'cutoff' someone reset them to run one at a time, 10s apart IIRC.
Again, we're talking about remote possibilities and 100% certainties here, any investigator will tell you just because it looks like something happened, you cannot go into an investigation with any bias like that. Evaluate everything.
ScaldyBogBalls@reddit
The sensor which records the switch state is located physically on the switch, it is an independent system to the switch itself. The fact that it agrees with the cutoff time means the physical switch was indeed moved.
AdamHLG@reddit
Lots of comments here but nothing I saw about the FADEC theory mentioned in the article. Not a pilot. Is that theory possible?
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
Each engine has its own independent FADEC and there are backups. While it may be technically possible the chances of both engines having the same failure in quick succession are quite improbable to the point of near impossible.
hellomoto_20@reddit
Why does Ed Pierson support looking into that?
peterpanic32@reddit
I presume he supports looking into that because he's made a lucrative career out of weaponizing his limited experience working for Boeing (in a non-technical role on an entirely different aircraft) into questionable criticism of Boeing.
Boeing being at fault is good for his career, regardless of what the facts or a reasonable conclusion would suggest.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
In an investigation you look into everything, more likely if it was aircraft related you'd find something else that would result in a single point of failure.
A good example is the A350, one diverted single engine after they spilled a drink on the throttle quadrant. 10 minutes or so later one of shit off switches failed and failed to OFF. The other could have failed too on that flight but even if it had the chances of that happening so close in point of time are quite small (you'd have some type of time separation).
Fortunately in that case it resulted in a learning opportunity to solve the issue going forward.
In this case I would expect an aircraft system side issue to involve something else that would trigger two working units to shut off. But then the shut offs also weren't actually simultaneous.
The worst part about all of this is one of the engines had relit and was spooling up but they weren't high enough to provide the time for it.
Really the way the indications cycled in both directions timeline wise it seems incredibly unlikely it was anything other than the switches moving.
momentofcontent@reddit
This article has people (including the head of a US aviation safety organisation, so not related to the family or India) all saying that there is the possibility that a downstream error or disturbance in the electrical controls could have caused the cutoff (without the switches being physically moved). Can someone who is more knowledgeable than me explain if this is actually possible? And is there some kind of light or indicator that would have alerted the pilot the engine fuel was cut off if this was the case?
I have no agenda here either way and don’t know enough, but everyone keeps commenting on how impossible it is to accidentally move the switches mechanically, but not anything on the electrical system itself.
peterpanic32@reddit
There's also a possibility that a passenger farted too hard, causing their toxic fumes to degrade the plane's electrical equipment, causing a crash.
All of the evidence however points to a pilot intentionally causing the crash.
GeneratedUserHandle@reddit
First of all, I have been in aviation for almost 2 decades and have never heard of the Foundation for Aviation Safety. A cursory look shows it has no real technical authority and is a pet project of a recently retired Boeing employee who was not an engineer and was a manager.
https://www.foundationforaviationsafety.org/
And no, these switched are physical relays which open/close circuits. There is no way they could have faulted or actioned a fuel control system.
momentofcontent@reddit
Thanks for the clarification, so the Full Authority Digital Engine Control system mentioned in the article is not involved at all?
GeneratedUserHandle@reddit
A FADEC is involved with engine operation, but not in this respect.
Because that switch position can only be signaled by a contact relay.
It is an isolated system.
Think of it this way. You have a sensor on a light switch. It shows on or off. But the sensor does not actually control the light switch. In order to turn the light on or off the switch physically has to be moved and then the sensor shows the position.
Even if it showed a fault (which isnt positive because it reads the physical position and it wouldnt show it happening within 1 second for 2 independent switches) of off for the light, if the switch was still ON it wouldnt turn the off.
The other piece that hasnt been disclosed but obviously is on the CVR is the physical clicking of the switch when it is pulled up then locked out.
You’ll be able to hear it.
Adjutant_Reflex_@reddit
The former NTSB chairperson did not claim there was some “electrical disturbance” and backed up the conclusion of deliberate cutting of fuel.
The “electrical disturbance” claim was made by some captain in India that’s running his own foundation. Why the BBC would even include a quote from that person is questionable.
makiferol@reddit
India and their archaic nationalism, what do you expect ?
Jazzlike_770@reddit
It's a low effort article from BBC quoting non-experts. They need to do better than that.
peterpanic32@reddit
You mean like the non-expert supreme court judge saying dumb shit about the crash and report due to nationalism?
goro-n@reddit
I mean.. I posted this article from Reuters a few hours before this post https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-top-court-says-air-india-crash-report-does-not-insinuate-anything-against-2025-11-07/
FutureHoo@reddit
Did you even bother reading the article?
_DigitalHunk_@reddit
Just curious. Why can't Pilots be at fault? Aren't they human? It's not the first time and certainly not the last time!
Put CC in the cockpit.
No more mystery to solve.
Angrykitten41@reddit
The main reason is that the Indian government, primarily the BJP, doesn't want to look bad in front of domestic and international media. If 1 pilot was of a minority faith (Muslim, Sikh, etc), they would have put all of the blame on them even if he was innocent, but unfortunately for them, both pilots were Hindus. They just want to drag this whole tragedy out so they can maneuver this into a nationalist propaganda matter. Plain and simple.
TiberianDictator@reddit
Seconded. As unfounded and ludicrous this sounds to a western spectator, the notion that the Indian Government—governed by Hindu radicals of the most obscene kind—would’ve embarked on a scrupulous character assassination of the pilots had either of them been Muslim or Sikh is true.
They’ve done so in the past for incidents unrelated to aviation, and they’d do it again. The existence of Muslims is a blessing to them, for they invariably get find themselves the scapegoat of Indian mismanagement and corruption.
kombinacja@reddit
Thank you both for the explanation
vaasu_annan@reddit
You have no idea about the political climate in India, Do you? I'm as against BJP as one gets but right now, You’re reaching, bud. The government has been silent in all this. If they wanted to hide something, why would they release a report that clearly points to an act by the pilot or pilots?
NetworkDeestroyer@reddit
I already knew this investigation was going to be a shit show, and it’s sad I’m being proven right. Cause for all we know the real truth will get buried. India’s politics are an animal of their own.
Just feel sad for those who want actual answers and not answers that have the gov of India redacting it.
Feel like the NTSB should’ve taken the lead in this.
toarunps@reddit
I don't really understand why politics needs to be brought in for an air crash investigation, but since you decided to, think the US politics is any better than what is in India?
NetworkDeestroyer@reddit
Did you read the article? Cause then you will understand why I said what I said.
toarunps@reddit
Yeah. And you should as well. If you have difficulty understanding, let me know. 🙂
NetworkDeestroyer@reddit
Please go for it, I’m hear for this explanation. Let’s hear it.
toarunps@reddit
Alright. So all that this articlrle does is to focus on the ongoing debate over who was responsible for the crash and whether the investigation treated the pilots fairly.
The piece highlights that India’s courts and aviation authorities have disagreed on parts of the inquiry, and that families of victims and pilot associations have raised concerns about procedural fairness. But nowhere does it imply a political motive or government cover-up — it’s about the technical investigation and accountability process, not politics.
But then given you have read it and has a different take on it, kindly highlight the piece where it leads you to believe that the Indian politics has a leading hand in the investigation.
Great_Comparison462@reddit
It's surely possible that it's neither a fault, not pilot suicide? The pilot could have just accidentally hit the fuel cut-off, and lied about it, either to save face or because he didn't realise he'd done it.
Skylynx224@reddit
You don't 'accidentally' hit fuel cutoff switches in the same way you don't 'accidentally' turn your ignition off whole driving or 'accidentally' reach over to the passenger side glovebox to open it. It requires a deliberate action. What we don't know, is the reason for the deliberate action. But we do know, that it was done deliberately, with intention, and on purpose
Great_Comparison462@reddit
You can't know that it was a deliberate action. It's as simple as that.
Ramenastern@reddit
They're not simple "flip" switches. These switches are physically protected against people moving them accidentally. In more than one way. They have guards next to them to protect against brushing against them, and they also need to be pulled out with considerable force, then moved, and then pushed back in.
It's not like the standard on/off switch on your coffee maker. It's not even like any other switch in the cockpit, to avoid any "correct muscle memory, wrong switch" effect.
Great_Comparison462@reddit
Respectfully, this is irrelevant to my point which was you cannot know it was a deliberate act. The pilot might have had some kind of mental episode, a stroke, or something else which caused him to involuntarily flick the switches.
Ramenastern@reddit
You cannot ultimately know anything about another person's thoughts. But you're firmly in the realm of philosophy at this point and obviously not interested in coming so any sort of conclusion that can prevent future crashes. I mean... You're completely disregarding anything and everything about how the plane works, how the pilots interact with it, how the switches in question work, and just keep repeating your line about how we cannot know whether a person did something deliberately.
Philosophically, congratulations, no we can't. Well done. But we can deduce. Which you're not interested in. And your "insight" has zero practical impact or relevance, because you choose to focus on that individual factotum rather than the full picture.
If my kid can be seen opening a cookie jar with a clip lock - ie a lock you won't open accidentally by brushing against it - you can still keep arguing about how I can't know if my kid really did that deliberately. And whoopdeedoo, no, very strictly and philosophically, I can't. Might have been remote-controlled by aliens, obviously.
For the time being, it was a deliberate act for all intehgs and purposes, and going by that I'll put additional safeguards in place to avoid reoccurrence. Like a lock-out, tag-out padlock, or like placing it somewhere my kid can't reach without an adult, or like not buying or making any cookies to begin with.
Great_Comparison462@reddit
Comparing a child's brain being controlled by aliens to a pilot having a medical incident that might impair their judgement is absolutely moronic.
Ramenastern@reddit
Replace "child" with "my significant other" or literally any person you can think of, including myself or yourself, and the argument remains the exact same.
Great_Comparison462@reddit
Also, I don't think 'factotum' means what you think it does.
Ramenastern@reddit
Cheers. Not my native language, corrected.
FrankReynoldsCPA@reddit
These pseudo philosophy types are worse than LinkedIn thought leaders.
double-dog-doctor@reddit
Do you also believe that people end up in the emergency room with pineapples in their butts because they tripped and fell onto them?
Great_Comparison462@reddit
If I don't have sufficient evidence, I don't rule out potential scenarios. I don't make unsubstantiated guarantees about things that happened unless there is irrefutable evidence.
double-dog-doctor@reddit
I'll take that as a yes!
Ramenastern@reddit
Only read this after I wrote my lengthy response and... Kudos. Much more in point.
Pugs-r-cool@reddit
People always overlook this when they try to blame muscle memory or the pilot zoning out or whatever. The switches have multiple design elements that make such a thing impossible to happen, because designers know how crucial it is for it to not happen.
Ramenastern@reddit
Yup. Man-machine interface is such an overlooked area that's actually key for so many things, especially in safety-critical systems.
chzit@reddit
They very nature of the design of those switches means, IF they were actuated, it was intentional.
qalpi@reddit
Besides the physical action required to turn one switch off, the switches were BOTH switched off, one after another
OverPing80@reddit
The switches need to be pulled up and back with considerable force. No other switch in the 787 cockpit requires that motion. You can’t swipe your hand to cut off fule
Skylynx224@reddit
You can, because the two switches need to be lifted before they can be moved to cutoff. That requires a deliberate action. You cannot accidentally hit the two switches into cutoff. What we can't know, is why the deliberate action was done.
GeneratedUserHandle@reddit
Everyone ignore this guy. He hides his comments and is from india if you do a search. He just wants to lie as a nationalist.
https://www.reddit.com/search/?q=%2Fu%2FGreat_Comparison462&cId=77e4ec3a-ffeb-4d46-a454-42992979befe&iId=4023b4a7-c435-4f89-ba54-2a60a447fa2d
Great_Comparison462@reddit
What even is that link?!?
Great_Comparison462@reddit
Lol what are you on about?
jdbcn@reddit
Can they identify which pilot spoke?
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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WAR_T0RN1226@reddit
Unfortunately that still leaves the possibility that the pilot who did it asked the other pilot why he did it, in order to cover up what he was doing
ZeroWashu@reddit
so, can they follow all are switch state changes to get an idea who might have had the best opportunity? I guess there would not be to much activity that early.
ScaldyBogBalls@reddit
Correct, one of the two men is lying, knowing he's about to commit a murder-suicide. Based on their roles, probably the Captain.
goro-n@reddit
Yes, they can, but they haven’t revealed that for the preliminary report. The AAIB isn’t supposed to assign blame anyways, it’s just to uncover what happened and why
cpt_ppppp@reddit
From memory I think it was identified as the captain asking. The first officer was pilot flying so he would normally have had his hands on the yoke to control the aircraft which is why there is so much uncertainty
Death_Ma5ter@reddit
The report didn't explicitly mention who asked the question. People believe it was the caption as he was the pilot monitoring during the incident.
goro-n@reddit
https://www.corriere.it/economia/trasporti/aerei/25_luglio_18/air-india-comandante-trappola-2db9160e-9395-4daf-8746-fa0278faaxlk.shtml
From Corriere, Italy’s top newspaper, it was identified that the first officer was the one asking why the captain turned off the switches and the captain denying it.
Death_Ma5ter@reddit
There are multiple microphones inside the cockpit including ones inside the captain and first officer's headset. So it wouldn't be too difficult to identify.
HatRemov3r@reddit
Remind me never to fly air India
don_sley@reddit
But booing fault, if its booing i aint going
wickedGamer65@reddit
Somehow literally no one the thread has managed to read the article.
GhostRiders@reddit
I said after the accident that this will turn into a blame game because the Indian government would do everything they can to protect their National Carrier yet I was downvoted...
Anybody who is from India or has dealt with Indian Companies could and would have told you that this was inevitable.
I have several India Colleagues and of the day of the accident they all said that it will be a very long time if ever we get to the bottom of this because because the Indian Government will do everything can to delay and will point the finger at everyone to protect their National Carrier.
TaskForceCausality@reddit
Unfortunately, everyone at the upper levels of each involved agency has an agenda which at best, only intersects with the truth.
Boeing and America’s political establishment will protect the aircraft and its reputation, whether thats aligned with the facts of the crash or not. Indias airline and political establishment will protect their national reputation first, whether that’s aligned with the facts or not.
The truth of why hundreds of people died -to those in charge of both camps- is irrelevant.
I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS@reddit
Yeah that's why nobody ever found out why those two 737 MAXes crashed
m-in@reddit
I do believe you, but how will they “protect” their carrier? What/who from? They had a major crash that stinks and anyone who cares about it has adjusted their flying plans accordingly. So what’s there to protect? The damage is done. It doesn’t matter at this point who is responsible, the stink is there all right.
goro-n@reddit
It looks much worse for an airline to have a crash because of pilot suicide vs because of mechanical or electrical failure that was the plane manufacturer’s fault
ContextWorking976@reddit
I don't even see how your comment could be controversial, it's common sense.
Similar_Mistake_1355@reddit
So that means they’re happy to let it happen again.
_gravedanger_@reddit
It’s India lol
vyrago@reddit
Here’s the TLDR:
The fuel switches were moved from RUN to CUTOFF.
“But why would an Indian do this?” Asks another Indian.
BrianBash@reddit
The pilot that did this is a mass murderer.
There’s my blame.
FriendComplex8767@reddit
The industry know what happens, hence why very few 787 pilots or operators have any doubts about the aircraft.
[Source: someone employed for a 787 operator]
It's pretty damn clear that the the fuel cut-off switches were deliberately moved and basic psychology by who. The Indian investigation team are going full mental gymnastics to try and blame anything other than an Indian such as speculating on elaborate implausible conspiracy theories.
One of the reasons why the NTSB threatened to pull-out.
https://simpleflying.com/us-investigators-threatened-withdraw-air-india-crash-probe/
It's embarrassing. Airbus and Boeing shouldn't sell India as much as A4 sheet of paper until they get investigators who are fully committed to air-safety and not covering up for each other.
superimu@reddit
Yet not enough blame is head where it belongs: to the lawyers.
TrafficOnTheTwos@reddit
India is obviously covering something up
betawings@reddit
Wish cameras were put into the cockpit facing the controls so public, avoids all this speculation And mystery
CaydeTheCat@reddit
Same thing happened with Egypt Air 990.
SidewaysGoose57@reddit
They want to go after Boeing's deep pockets. It's about a payday.
Pugs-r-cool@reddit
What makes you think that?
SidewaysGoose57@reddit
Lol! Really? Money, it's always money.