Ex had a Cavalier with drum brakes. I was used to full disc brakes on my Saturn. Almost gave myself whiplash trying to drive her Cavalier. She loved the brakes on it, I hated them and vowed never to drive with drum brakes again.
I raced lots of cars with drum brakes, and properly setup and cooled they are pretty darn good. You have to be careful with heat saturation, like if you push for a lap to make a pass you need to cool it in the next couple heavy brake zones or you’ll start losing the pedal, but if properly matched to a car’s weight and grip and have the right friction material they aren’t bad at all.
Drum brakes offer more stopping force by the nature of the contact area
Not necessarily. They do offer more contact area, but the shoes are generally much harder. It's about a wash
What drum brakes do, that 99% of disc brakes can't, is self-energize. The action of the brake pad grabbing into the drum will cam it over such that it applies additional Force. In a system like this, you don't really need power brakes, unless the brakes are unreasonably small.
Even in lightweight cars, you can have non-assisted brakes with careful master cylinder choices. Once car started getting heavy, then breaking assistance was considered more or less mandatory
Not extremely but discs are better for it. Going through a big puddle can also soak your drums and cause a lack of braking power, then you have to drsg your brakes to evaporate the water
I have a 68 Ford with non-power drum brakes, and you can lock all four wheels at highway speed. It stops straight, and I last adjusted the drums probably 6 years / 20,000 miles ago.
When people say how terrible drum brakes are, it just tells me they can’t set them up.
Yup. Had a 68 c20 with a 396 and 4 wheel drums. Replaced wheels cylinders, shoes, rubber lines and adjusted. Stopped on a dime. My 65 riviera has all drum brakes also, apparently buick brakes at the time we're some of the best.
riviera is awesome my grandfather had his from new and his hideaways still functioned with new custom Leds and everything. Couldn't tell you what motor he had or nothing but his was this dark magenta color that I will forever be obsessed with. I saw a subaru outback with ALMOST the same color, it's called dark mahogany pearl and that color doesn't belong on an outback it is GORGEOUS in real life picture don't do it justice. His was just a smidgen more purple than that.
Wish I could've had that car, was sold after he died for a good chunk of change none of us could afford.
How many times in a row do you need to panic stop from 65 mph? I’m not arguing drum brakes for track use, but for any road driving they’re perfectly fine. I live in the Rocky Mountains where I have to drive passes with runaway truck ramps every mile, and I think I’ve experienced brake fade once in 15 years.
"Terrible" is subjective for sure.
The Honda community loves swapping out the rear drums on the CRX (non si) with Si rotors. The thing is, performance wise the rear drums are phenomenal. Replacing the rears with newer lightweight Honda insight drums is even better for cooling and weight. The issues is, they just dont look "cool"(pun intended).
All that said, if you step out of normal daily driving or even spirited driving/ sub 80mph, the caliper and rotor combo really winds up being superior for repeated heavy braking due to brake fade, abs, cooling etc. But I havent pushed drums to the limit with a newer application so I could be entirely off base.
Or they don’t know how to drive. My 68 c20 with 4 wheel drums will throw you through the windshield if you want it to, but you can get them to fade if you’re riding them downhill.
I had a 72 maverick with 4 wheel manual drums, and you could floor the brake pedal at 30mph and it would barely slow the car down. It was bad enough on that small car, I can only imagine how bad it would be on a full size car that weighs 6,000lbs. I like drums but if I dont have a booster I at least need front discs
You were driving a car with a brake failure. It had nothing to do with them being drum brakes. I have a 68 Falcon that has a ton of parts interchange with that Maverick, probably including the brakes, and I can easily lock all four wheels from highway speeds. Leaving four skid marks is the most brake force any vehicle can possibly apply. It has unassisted drum brakes.
Sounds like something wrong with the car, not the concept of drums. I have a '74 Super Beetle, no power ANYTHING, and it's not difficult to stop. Only 2,000 pounds though. Same with my old '79 Jeep DJ5, it was 3000 pounds with 4 wheel manual drums and not an issue at all.
Properly designed drum brakes are self-actualizing. They tilt slightly in their mounting and use some of the wheel rotation to apply more force. So, technically I guess they are assisted, just not with vacuum or hydraulics. If you set them up improperly, they're a nightmare. Harder to diagnose and more complex than disks, but I don't think they're actually any worse.
After I had a suicide door come open next to me while driving a vintage vehicle that was all around drums I realised the brakes were absolutely fine you just need to use more force than I was used to. Turns out having an open door and no seat belt does encourage you to stand on the brake pedal
My 70 Buick was the same. It would do it once. Then needed time too cool afterwards. Now the random pulling left or right when braking gets n the city I swapped to front disc. Oh and power brakes.
Drums aren’t bad, my ‘66 c10 had a single pot master cylinder. That is bad, and I remind myself to never drive another like this. Most 4 wheel drum brakes had single pot master cylinders.
I don't have an opinion either way on how they feel, I just don't know how to service them. My Tacoma only has them in the back, and if/when they go bad, I'm just planning on only using my front disk breaks.
I will agree, that IF I am replacing every single part of a drum brake, then I don't mind them. But if I'm just putting new pads on, or something, I HATE them.
I swapped the giant rear drums on my old truck for discs. Quite possibly the single worst fucking thing I ever did to that truck. Parking brake was a finicky piece of shit, pedal feel was never quite right. Rotors were 2x the cost of replacement drums and annoying to change.
My 05 Sierra had drum breaks in the rear but I did a disk conversion and it felt worse after even after doing ABS bleed etc. But I had 24’s on it and drums are uglier so….
Yeah so many people put disc conversions on their cars, cant imagine the hassle it is to get parts for them eventually, its hard enough with stock brakes
I had a 73 standard beetle that I replaced the master cylinder, wheel cylinders, shoes, springs, and swapped on braided stainless hoses. Once everything was bled, and adjusted the car would almost flip over if you hit the brakes too hard. There's nothing wrong with drums, and keep in mind that the newest air-cooled beetle in the US is over 45 years old, meaning every rubber part really should be replaced on any beetle at this point, even if it "looks" okay.
Good to hear because i’m restoring a -73 standard and was a bit upset that i can’t fit front discs with the 13” rims i currently have and would like to keep them. Never driven anything without discs at least on front wheels before.
I drive Beetles for years and Model As with mechanical brakes. It’s just a different skill set, however my current Model A is 4wheel discs with a 7” power booster!! That assembly likes very nice!!
My 31 Model A Lakes Modified has manual drums, 67 c10 master, and fabricated clutch and brake levers. The brake pedal ratio is 6:1 which makes the brakes effective without having to mash the shit out of it. Also an older mentor taught me how to adjust them. Proper adjustments took the car from darting around when braking to being very stable and straight. A 1900# hot rod with 1/2 ton truck brakes, even drums, will stop rapidly!
I was pleasantly surprised at how powerful the 9” 4 wheel drum system is in my ‘73 Valiant. Stops on a dime even without a power booster. But yeah, definitely better things out there especially if you’re gonna get them hot
Cars that had large enough drums often had as much stopping power as their tires could handle, at the time. Cars with smaller drums were often barely adequate at higher speeds. Get any of them hot enough, they fade real fast.
Drums get a bad reputation now because most people have incorrect lining materials, improperly sized to match the drums, and often adjusted incorrectly.
I took apart a drum parking brake to swap diffs and it’s been two months and I’m still too scared to try to reassemble it. It’s like the f’ing Antikathera mechanism
The problem with drum brakes has never been stopping power they have more stopping power than disc brakes. The issue is heat soak. Once they get hot there's nowhere for the heat to go. They're great for the drag strip where you only stop once but suck for the track.
Back in the ‘60s Pontiac had an 8-lug wheel option where the wheel was basically just the rim and the center was the exposed finned aluminum brake drum, which jutted outward like the “turbine” wheel covers and wire wheels that were popular at the time. The idea was to improve cooling but I don’t know well that theory translated to the real world. Then again despite names like Bonneville and Grand Prix they were boulevard cruisers that would hardly ever be driven hard so normal drum brakes probably would have been perfectly adequate.
I agree, but with the exception of your beetle. Drums on a bug are about right. When I did my 60, I was expecting poor stopping power, instead it nearly put me through the windshield. Drums set up can stop 2200ish-lbs on a dime.
The rotor for most of the rear disc w/ e-brake kits for beetles weigh twice what the drums weigh. Not worth the unsprung rotating mass imo. Use some brake grease where there is metal to metal contact.
"Louis Renault is credited with inventing the modern drum brake in 1902, though a less-sophisticated version was used by Maybach in 1901. Renault's design featured brake shoes pressing against the inside of a rotating drum, which created friction to slow the vehicle. His 1902 patent was a significant improvement over previous braking systems. "... " a design that remains the basis for this type of brake today. " Nice job Louis.
Christ-0-for@reddit
VW swing axle?
Briggs281707@reddit
You could get a beetle with front disks you know. Drums actually stop pretty good the first few times, then they get hot and stop working great.
Bubbly-Pirate-3311@reddit
Strong as hell, but so little brake force modulation. It's just, touch the brake pedal, and you're tasting the leather on the steering wheel
Shot-Rip306@reddit
They work well on heavy trucks with some momentum behind them.
I remember having to move a friends late 80s f150 with drums and aggressive power brakes and you couldnt be smooth with it if you tried.
Slappy-_-Boy@reddit
Ex had a Cavalier with drum brakes. I was used to full disc brakes on my Saturn. Almost gave myself whiplash trying to drive her Cavalier. She loved the brakes on it, I hated them and vowed never to drive with drum brakes again.
Bubbly-Pirate-3311@reddit
Lmao thankfully I've never had to deal with them
mikePTH@reddit
I raced lots of cars with drum brakes, and properly setup and cooled they are pretty darn good. You have to be careful with heat saturation, like if you push for a lap to make a pass you need to cool it in the next couple heavy brake zones or you’ll start losing the pedal, but if properly matched to a car’s weight and grip and have the right friction material they aren’t bad at all.
blakewantsa68@reddit
A big part of “properly set up” is radiusing the shoes to the drum so you get full contact. Nearly a lost art
C2it4U@reddit
Looks GREAT!! Shame it’ll be hidden by the drum!👍🏼👍🏼
edthesmokebeard@reddit
They do have a cool steampunk vibe.
Beating the drum off with a sledge is never the fun part.
BobsBug65@reddit (OP)
Great observation. Something about the look appeals to me. Here is how I finished the rear panels on my '60 bug
chuck-u-farley-@reddit
I got a 72 olds with 4 wheel power drums that’ll put ya into the windshield if you aren’t careful
Gostaverling@reddit
Drum brakes offer more stopping force by the nature of the contact area, the problem is disappearing the heat.
Hansj3@reddit
Not necessarily. They do offer more contact area, but the shoes are generally much harder. It's about a wash
What drum brakes do, that 99% of disc brakes can't, is self-energize. The action of the brake pad grabbing into the drum will cam it over such that it applies additional Force. In a system like this, you don't really need power brakes, unless the brakes are unreasonably small. Even in lightweight cars, you can have non-assisted brakes with careful master cylinder choices. Once car started getting heavy, then breaking assistance was considered more or less mandatory
CicadaHead3317@reddit
So much fade coming down from a day at the mountain through snow/slush/rain.
PreferenceContent987@reddit
I take it they fade extremely fast
FalseRelease4@reddit
Not extremely but discs are better for it. Going through a big puddle can also soak your drums and cause a lack of braking power, then you have to drsg your brakes to evaporate the water
Sle@reddit
When I had a bike with a front drum brake, the water used to make the thing more grabby - the opposite of discs.
solarpurge@reddit
My disc brakes always feel extra grippy after a rinse. Snow packed calipers results in no brakes though
Sle@reddit
Haha, I never considered this. Discs clearly win out in those circumstances.
25_Watt_Bulb@reddit
I have a 68 Ford with non-power drum brakes, and you can lock all four wheels at highway speed. It stops straight, and I last adjusted the drums probably 6 years / 20,000 miles ago.
When people say how terrible drum brakes are, it just tells me they can’t set them up.
No-Guey@reddit
Yup. Had a 68 c20 with a 396 and 4 wheel drums. Replaced wheels cylinders, shoes, rubber lines and adjusted. Stopped on a dime. My 65 riviera has all drum brakes also, apparently buick brakes at the time we're some of the best.
UrAvgAngel@reddit
riviera is awesome my grandfather had his from new and his hideaways still functioned with new custom Leds and everything. Couldn't tell you what motor he had or nothing but his was this dark magenta color that I will forever be obsessed with. I saw a subaru outback with ALMOST the same color, it's called dark mahogany pearl and that color doesn't belong on an outback it is GORGEOUS in real life picture don't do it justice. His was just a smidgen more purple than that.
Wish I could've had that car, was sold after he died for a good chunk of change none of us could afford.
Zappiticas@reddit
Yes but how many times can you do that before your brakes have faded to the point of not working anymore before you have to let them cool down.
That’s why drum brakes suck. Yes, they can brake hard…a few times, but they are horrible at dissipating heat.
25_Watt_Bulb@reddit
How many times in a row do you need to panic stop from 65 mph? I’m not arguing drum brakes for track use, but for any road driving they’re perfectly fine. I live in the Rocky Mountains where I have to drive passes with runaway truck ramps every mile, and I think I’ve experienced brake fade once in 15 years.
H2Dcrx@reddit
"Terrible" is subjective for sure. The Honda community loves swapping out the rear drums on the CRX (non si) with Si rotors. The thing is, performance wise the rear drums are phenomenal. Replacing the rears with newer lightweight Honda insight drums is even better for cooling and weight. The issues is, they just dont look "cool"(pun intended). All that said, if you step out of normal daily driving or even spirited driving/ sub 80mph, the caliper and rotor combo really winds up being superior for repeated heavy braking due to brake fade, abs, cooling etc. But I havent pushed drums to the limit with a newer application so I could be entirely off base.
CogBlocker@reddit
My 66 impala was the same way, I could leave 4 black marks on the highway anytime I wanted
AlwaysBagHolding@reddit
Or they don’t know how to drive. My 68 c20 with 4 wheel drums will throw you through the windshield if you want it to, but you can get them to fade if you’re riding them downhill.
Blu_yello_husky@reddit
I had a 72 maverick with 4 wheel manual drums, and you could floor the brake pedal at 30mph and it would barely slow the car down. It was bad enough on that small car, I can only imagine how bad it would be on a full size car that weighs 6,000lbs. I like drums but if I dont have a booster I at least need front discs
25_Watt_Bulb@reddit
You were driving a car with a brake failure. It had nothing to do with them being drum brakes. I have a 68 Falcon that has a ton of parts interchange with that Maverick, probably including the brakes, and I can easily lock all four wheels from highway speeds. Leaving four skid marks is the most brake force any vehicle can possibly apply. It has unassisted drum brakes.
jeepsaintchaos@reddit
Sounds like something wrong with the car, not the concept of drums. I have a '74 Super Beetle, no power ANYTHING, and it's not difficult to stop. Only 2,000 pounds though. Same with my old '79 Jeep DJ5, it was 3000 pounds with 4 wheel manual drums and not an issue at all.
Properly designed drum brakes are self-actualizing. They tilt slightly in their mounting and use some of the wheel rotation to apply more force. So, technically I guess they are assisted, just not with vacuum or hydraulics. If you set them up improperly, they're a nightmare. Harder to diagnose and more complex than disks, but I don't think they're actually any worse.
hannahranga@reddit
After I had a suicide door come open next to me while driving a vintage vehicle that was all around drums I realised the brakes were absolutely fine you just need to use more force than I was used to. Turns out having an open door and no seat belt does encourage you to stand on the brake pedal
cat_of_danzig@reddit
I always enjoy a comment that reminds me of this. Wear a seatbelt, folks.
hannahranga@reddit
Hard to wear one that doesn't exist but yeah we really should fit them to it.
tlivingd@reddit
My 70 Buick was the same. It would do it once. Then needed time too cool afterwards. Now the random pulling left or right when braking gets n the city I swapped to front disc. Oh and power brakes.
g-e-o-f-f@reddit
My 56 MGA with drums can lock up the tires at any speed it can achieve
DocTarr@reddit
I have experienced brake fade on a vehicle with 4 wheel drums at the bottom of a steep hill.
Front now on I only run discs in the front.
Technical-Special-77@reddit
The biggest issue with Drums these days is the shoe material, and the material they're making replacements drums out of.
OOFMAN-1234@reddit
My 86 c10 stops on a dime with drums in the rear
VW-MB-AMC@reddit
Well maintained drum brakes are not bad at all.
Screwthehelicopters@reddit
Many times I have battled with those springs using pliers which were unsuitable for the task.
SilentMasterpiece@reddit
On a lite VW drum are fine for the rears, upfront I like disc.
helloiisjason@reddit
Drums are fine if adjusted properly. Most all semis have drums.
my_cars_on_fire@reddit
You wanna come fix mine? Can’t get my parking brake to work 🙄
Tin_Can_739@reddit
Drums aren’t bad, my ‘66 c10 had a single pot master cylinder. That is bad, and I remind myself to never drive another like this. Most 4 wheel drum brakes had single pot master cylinders.
Similar_Dirt9758@reddit
I don't have an opinion either way on how they feel, I just don't know how to service them. My Tacoma only has them in the back, and if/when they go bad, I'm just planning on only using my front disk breaks.
Justprunes-6344@reddit
My brother drove Caddy ambulance’s He said , they had 7 stops per run.
bit_herder@reddit
weird mine barely stop my vw bus but no booster
Bingo1dog@reddit
PARKOUR_ZOMBlE@reddit
Link?!?!?!
two_sams_one_cup@reddit
https://www.junkyarddigs.com/shop
It's in here
DaisyDong@reddit
Junkyard digs website
ctennessen@reddit
Audi UFO
LabyrinthConvention@reddit
is a disc brake
https://www.fcpeuro.com/blog/reinventing-the-rotor-audis-ufo-brake-solution
beermaker@reddit
My 4 wheel disc conversion performs wonderfully.
so-sick@reddit
If you have e the correct tools, drum are easy peasy, nice job by the way.
froebull@reddit
I will agree, that IF I am replacing every single part of a drum brake, then I don't mind them. But if I'm just putting new pads on, or something, I HATE them.
Assembling nice new parts is never a bad time.
Individual_Put2261@reddit
I hate those springs
grease_monkey@reddit
VW?
Radius8887@reddit
I swapped the giant rear drums on my old truck for discs. Quite possibly the single worst fucking thing I ever did to that truck. Parking brake was a finicky piece of shit, pedal feel was never quite right. Rotors were 2x the cost of replacement drums and annoying to change.
FalseRelease4@reddit
Naw bro think of the good feels you have from swapping in disc brakes, theyre the best 😂
CogBlocker@reddit
My 05 Sierra had drum breaks in the rear but I did a disk conversion and it felt worse after even after doing ABS bleed etc. But I had 24’s on it and drums are uglier so….
FalseRelease4@reddit
Yeah so many people put disc conversions on their cars, cant imagine the hassle it is to get parts for them eventually, its hard enough with stock brakes
CogBlocker@reddit
Yeah this one used front calipers from an OBS truck and Gbody calipers
Familiar_Palpitation@reddit
I had a 73 standard beetle that I replaced the master cylinder, wheel cylinders, shoes, springs, and swapped on braided stainless hoses. Once everything was bled, and adjusted the car would almost flip over if you hit the brakes too hard. There's nothing wrong with drums, and keep in mind that the newest air-cooled beetle in the US is over 45 years old, meaning every rubber part really should be replaced on any beetle at this point, even if it "looks" okay.
sultan_of_gin@reddit
Good to hear because i’m restoring a -73 standard and was a bit upset that i can’t fit front discs with the 13” rims i currently have and would like to keep them. Never driven anything without discs at least on front wheels before.
Familiar_Palpitation@reddit
https://www.jbugs.com/product/5587.html
https://www.jbugs.com/product/T16977BK.html
This is pretty much what I put on my bug, it all went on smoothly and worked well.
Big-Energy-3363@reddit
I drive Beetles for years and Model As with mechanical brakes. It’s just a different skill set, however my current Model A is 4wheel discs with a 7” power booster!! That assembly likes very nice!!
sladebonge@reddit
Drum brakes are just fine (on the back) as long as you have disc brakes (on the front).
Huskerdu4u@reddit
My 31 Model A Lakes Modified has manual drums, 67 c10 master, and fabricated clutch and brake levers. The brake pedal ratio is 6:1 which makes the brakes effective without having to mash the shit out of it. Also an older mentor taught me how to adjust them. Proper adjustments took the car from darting around when braking to being very stable and straight. A 1900# hot rod with 1/2 ton truck brakes, even drums, will stop rapidly!
BeerJedi-1269@reddit
I dislike them. Had to make a fancy tool. (Bonus if you can guess the car without looking at my profile)
v8packard@reddit
The brakes look Mopar. The tapered axle makes it pre 1964. Is that a frame? If so, pre 1957?
BeerJedi-1269@reddit
1949 plymouth special deluxe!
1320Fastback@reddit
If they are set up well with new parts and in perfect adjustment they still suck.
i-like-to@reddit
The truck I just finished has drum brakes all round and it throws me into the dashboard if I’m not careful stopping
Wholaughed@reddit
That’s not a good thing
Tfox671@reddit
I just started wearing a seat belt.
Lava_Lamp_Shlong@reddit
You got me on the first half xD
Wholaughed@reddit
I live in Alberta so rust is really bad here….. I hate drum brakes.
Expert_Mad@reddit
I was pleasantly surprised at how powerful the 9” 4 wheel drum system is in my ‘73 Valiant. Stops on a dime even without a power booster. But yeah, definitely better things out there especially if you’re gonna get them hot
v8packard@reddit
Cars that had large enough drums often had as much stopping power as their tires could handle, at the time. Cars with smaller drums were often barely adequate at higher speeds. Get any of them hot enough, they fade real fast.
Drums get a bad reputation now because most people have incorrect lining materials, improperly sized to match the drums, and often adjusted incorrectly.
chapo1162@reddit
You can tell the drivers that started driving on drums They always leave a bigger gap to the car if front
mechapoitier@reddit
I took apart a drum parking brake to swap diffs and it’s been two months and I’m still too scared to try to reassemble it. It’s like the f’ing Antikathera mechanism
srgh207@reddit
It helps to have six fingers on one hand and a prehensile tail.
FalseRelease4@reddit
Ive heard the special drum brake tool set makes it a lot easier, with two shitty screwdrivers its definitely miserable
smthngeneric@reddit
The problem with drum brakes has never been stopping power they have more stopping power than disc brakes. The issue is heat soak. Once they get hot there's nowhere for the heat to go. They're great for the drag strip where you only stop once but suck for the track.
obi1kenobi1@reddit
Back in the ‘60s Pontiac had an 8-lug wheel option where the wheel was basically just the rim and the center was the exposed finned aluminum brake drum, which jutted outward like the “turbine” wheel covers and wire wheels that were popular at the time. The idea was to improve cooling but I don’t know well that theory translated to the real world. Then again despite names like Bonneville and Grand Prix they were boulevard cruisers that would hardly ever be driven hard so normal drum brakes probably would have been perfectly adequate.
leo_gotti@reddit
That a flex
eyesofthunder@reddit
Properly adjusted drums are fantastic, self energizing and don’t need power assist.
They also have fast less drag than discs. So better mpg.
Furthur@reddit
about to do these on my bronco. got the beer, eye-pro and pliers ready
chadder69er@reddit
I agree, but with the exception of your beetle. Drums on a bug are about right. When I did my 60, I was expecting poor stopping power, instead it nearly put me through the windshield. Drums set up can stop 2200ish-lbs on a dime.
RoboticGanja@reddit
My ‘74 Karmann Ghia had factory disc brakes up front and rear drums, I really liked that stopping combo on a light car.
HFentonMudd@reddit
Same as my MGB
Alternative-Feed3613@reddit
The new old school way!
Vecna_Is_My_Co-Pilot@reddit
A hand break to be able to independently modulate those also sounds amazing
Probablyawerewolf@reddit
I like drum brakes as a hobby. I hated working on drum brakes to pay bills. Lol
Busterlimes@reddit
For drumming then?
der_german1432@reddit
The rotor for most of the rear disc w/ e-brake kits for beetles weigh twice what the drums weigh. Not worth the unsprung rotating mass imo. Use some brake grease where there is metal to metal contact.
P3tr0@reddit
Good enough for my Freightliner good enough for me
Noodnix@reddit
They are fine for your stock VW Beetle.
BobsBug65@reddit (OP)
Drums in the front.
MrManSir1974@reddit
They work well when adjusted properly.
BobsBug65@reddit (OP)
"Louis Renault is credited with inventing the modern drum brake in 1902, though a less-sophisticated version was used by Maybach in 1901. Renault's design featured brake shoes pressing against the inside of a rotating drum, which created friction to slow the vehicle. His 1902 patent was a significant improvement over previous braking systems. "... " a design that remains the basis for this type of brake today. " Nice job Louis.
BaconNPotatoes@reddit
They work great until they heat up, then not so much.
I'd rather work on and maintain disk brakes myself