[Rifle] Smith & Wesson Sport III (10 Round) w/ CT Red Dot $565 + Tax After Rebate
Posted by the_matthew@reddit | gundeals | View on Reddit | 66 comments
the_matthew@reddit (OP)
For those of you out there who want something between a $350 Andro and a $1200 Daniel Defense, there's this I guess.
It's a Rural King deal which means you have to pick it up at your nearest Rural King. You can't ship to other FFLs. Tax will be charged if your state does that. Appendix A of the rebate fine print does appear to show this UPC/SKU is eligible for the $100 rebate.
mjsv26@reddit
In your opinion, how meaningful are the upgrades from the Andro to this to the DD? I have been lurking for a while and am going to purchase my first AR but can't figure out how much to spend. The recent DD sales are incentivizing me to "buy once, cry once".
osubmw1@reddit
For your first ar, you'd be better off buying something cheaper and spending the rest on ammo. A middle of the road ar can be sold for ok money if you do decide its time to buy something nice.
mjsv26@reddit
Appreciate it. Would you spend the $380 on the Andro or the $565 here with the red dot?
wormraper@reddit
this right here. Andro got a name back in the day for being slightly better than PSA because they used BA barrels and some decent parts...and they were DIRT cheap. but reality is, they're just another low end manufactuer and PSA has passed them up in spades.
the S&W sport is put together REALLY well, with solid parts (including microbest bolt carrier groups, and proper barrels). flip the red dot for $50-$100 and get a Holosun/Vortex/Primary ARms dot and call it a day.
Insanity8016@reddit
Well are they still slightly better than PSA?
wormraper@reddit
IME....no. they're using lower grade anderson level parts (they stopped using BA barrels years ago) and have weak CS. PSA has their problems for sure, but they're a more reliable step up IMO. these Andro rifles ARE almost $100 cheaper for a fully built rifle though. so it is what it is.
Andro Corp got their name for being one of the better bottom barrel budget brands back when PSA was in their infancy around 2012, and back then PSA had PROBLEMS. their lower tier stuff was gritty, nasty, and frankly pretty shitty. PSA evolved a lot while Andro corp stayed the same (or got slightly worse). Not a bad choice, but PSA beats them these days easily.
don't get me wrong, PSA is still a budget rifle too, and I'm not trying to glaze them (goodness, PSA has their fair share of problems), it's just a matter of nuance at this price tier over which brand is better for a first timer.
MikeGoldberg@reddit
Ba has pretty decent deals on their website. You could probably build a decent rifle with mostly BA parts for 750 or so
wormraper@reddit
Aero/BA is pretty solid... I like their main parts (barrels, receivers) but they skimp and go PSA tier with their small parts... their bolts are notoriously "meh"... but for sure, a BA/Aero upper and their stripped lowers combined with some better parts will make a very competive rifle
MikeGoldberg@reddit
Oh, absolutely. Toolcraft and Microbest BCGs are the only thing I ever run. PSA owns toolcraft, so honestly, their bolts are a lot more solid than people think. The issues arise mostly with assembly and sometimes barrel quality, which, of course, BA smokes them at. Aero specifically has been having some issues with that during their whole staffing shakeup. I'm a big fan of FN barrel PSA rifles though, I own one and it quickly became my favorite.
wormraper@reddit
Nerdy nitpick. Toolcraft actually doesn't make any of their bolts. Just the carriers. They contract them out at different prices to different vendors, so you have to be careful on what specs are in a toolcraft bolt carrier groups description because the actual bolt can be different from carrier to carrier
MikeGoldberg@reddit
I had no idea that was the case, very interesting. I have a nitride toolcraft branded BCG in one of mine and she's a real nice shooter. I bought this about 6 years ago though, no doubt things have changed since covid. PSA themselves seem to think microbest is better than toolcraft because they put those in their premium sabre rifles but I can't tell a difference shooting the two š¤·āāļø
wormraper@reddit
yeah, they've done that for their entire existence, including pre PSA ownership. They're generally solid as long as you don't buy the cheapest from a no name vendor without listing specs...I still have a couple in an Aero build a while back.
and yeah, Microbest is one of the better ones, and they tend to be the OEM for the bigger name companies.
Insanity8016@reddit
So would buying a BCM/DD upper and using an Andro/PSA lower be considered kosher?
wormraper@reddit
lol...depends on what you mean as "Kosher"
I must say this. I'm a bit of a snob and stickler on lowers as I was an armorer for years and am a VEHEMENT antagonist to the whole "a lower is a lower" mantra that gets spread around online.
I PERSONALLY wouldn't put a lower tier lower (say that 3x fast) on a nice upper like that, and would rather just buy a fully built BCM blem lower when they go on sale....buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut. a PSA lower isn't the end of the world.
IF I was going to go that type of route, I'd pick up an Aero/Centurion/Zev lower and built it yourself. Just make sure to pick a good lower parts kit and fire control group from a reputable company (BCM, Sionics, SOLGW, Colt, FN, DD, Geissele, etc) and not cheap out on the lowest priced parts kit and buffer tube kit out there. you make one for not much more than a PSA lower and make sure you have quality parts in there.
TheDeadlyGentleman@reddit
For someone who's about to build their first, and also used to work as a machinist, what are the main differences when it comes to lowers? Is it just tolerances, or is there something else for the parts? I can imagine a cheap lower parts kit would break easily but don't quite get the differences for lowers and buffer tubes.
wormraper@reddit
sorrry man, I COMPLETELY missed your comment. It's a mixture of tolerances, as well as adherence to proper TDP specs.
lowers require specific specs and tolerances so that everything will function not only properly, but for a long time. Buffer tubes also need proper machining, especially with the threads. Class 2 or 3 threads are required for a buffer tube and lower mating, yet many cheaper places will use class 1 extruded threads which can actually be sloppy enough to allow rotation and loosening of the castle nut even when fully staked.
osubmw1@reddit
I'm going to point out that SOF ran dd uppers and then geissele uppers on shitty colt lowers and its was kosher. When I was a ranger those were the uppers we had and there weren't issues
wormraper@reddit
to be fair, I'd never classify colt lower as "shitty". they're good midrange stuff. not always perfect in their finishing capabilities, but they'll run like graped apes. Back when we were testing lowers for Blackwater (wayyyyyyyy back in the day before the name change) we had colt lowers going to 175,000 rounds before needing to be retired. we had ONE get to 223,000 (and some odd rounds) which was the MOST we had ever seen a lower take before needing it's retirement stamp
I was simply saying that I'd be cautious about putting a nice upper on the lowest bottom tier consumer grade lowers out there like PSA or Andro when for a little more you can get a time test BCM, Sionics, etc....(or built your own)
osubmw1@reddit
Sure, I'd recommend swapping the lower out eventually, but what's the real likelihood this rifle sees 20k rounds?
wormraper@reddit
yup, that's always the tradeoff in reccomending.
many people will never put 20K through their rifle EVER. So even a budget lower will do them fine enough. *shrug.
Mcdubstep21@reddit
Iāve actually had the opposite experience with Andro, solid customer service and honesty in quite impressed with it, at least for a AR under $500. The one I handled and shot did quite well
That being said, youāre correct that PSA is better in the long run. I have a beat to shit AR-556 thatās pretty much been my āplinkerā, and at this point might slap a regular carbine upper from them (damaged the upper trying to put on aftermarket hand guards) and call it a day, my IWI Carmel has become my SHTF rifle so itās been collecting dust in my closet for awhile now
Insanity8016@reddit
Isn't most of the wear contained in the upper/barrel? And even then can't you just replacer the lower parts instead of having to replace the actual serialized lower?
wormraper@reddit
A LOT of the wear is in the upper. BUUUUUUUUUUUUT, there are many things in a lower that can shorten it's life substantially not related to the small parts installed.
the axis pin holes, take down pins, dimensions on the mag catch cutout, etc can play a huge part.
just for example. Mil-spec standard calls for axis pin holes (fire control group pin holes) to be 0.1545-0.1560 starting, with a maximum size of 0.1575 before the pin holes are so far out of spec it starts becoming a problem (0.0015 variance either direction of 0.1560). most good brands try to keep it as close to 0.1550 as humanely possible, though up to 0.1560 is considered acceptable for a new lower. HOWEVER, I've seen a TON of cheap budget lowers like PSA come with pin holes mic'd to 0.1568-0.1573 before.... which has just robbed your lower of like 2/3rds of it's possible life span before they're so slopped out it needs to be retired. It's technically within the "it's still usable!" range, but NOWHERE near optimal.
OR, buffer retainer pins being misdrilled so that the buffer retainer pin takes the force of the buffer returning to battery instead of the back end of the bolt carrier keeping it offset from the pin. This can cause the buffer retainer pin to snap off during firing and jam up the weapon. It can be as silly of a problem as it rattling into your mag well, or I've seen that loose pin get jammed up ahead of the bolt carrier and lock up the entire weapon to the poing where the only way to disassemble it is to tear off the buffer tube and pull the bolt carrier out of the ass end.
the TLDR version is that higher end lowers will have better QC and more in spec parts than the lower brands. Sometimes those lower brands will work well enough, and other times they can be catastrophic.
GuyButtersnapsJr@reddit
Thank you for elaborating on those out of spec consequences.
wormraper@reddit
no worries man. Just trying to inform as so many people get caught up in a "all lowers are the same! there's only 4 forges!" mantran and can overlook some of the important ways in which lowers can fall prey to budget issues as well.
I'm not against lower priced budget lowers either. It's simply a case of "know what you're getting, and know what the trade offs for the lower price may be and act accordingly". I mean, I have a psa rifle I built for my wife a decade ago because she wanted something to plink with. I used a PSA lower and gauged the eff out of it to make sure it was at least reasonably in spec, but still. I wasn't going to drop $499 on a Daniel Defense lower for a $299 PSA upper lol
GuyButtersnapsJr@reddit
I'm going to check the specs on all my lower and upper receivers, now. I don't have any bargain basement lowers, but all my AR-15s are mismatched brand upper/lower. So, I'm a little worried that I may have some tolerance stacking issues.
Insanity8016@reddit
So what brand would you recommend?
wormraper@reddit
for a complete lower? or a complete rifle?
Insanity8016@reddit
Both. Add in a complete upper too.
wormraper@reddit
for rifles it will be with the caveat that I'm a "buy once, cry once" person and have a little bit higher tastes than the rifle in this thread
my go to at the moment of "you'll never NEED to buy another rifle" is the Daneil Defense DDM4 V7 that's been sold by 208gunshop for $1199 the last few months. Insane value considering they routinely went for $1600-$1800 up until this year when the gun market had the bottom drop out from under them
if you can find a Colt 6920 for $800-$950 than that's a very good price for a mil-spec rifle
sionics, SOLGW (on sale, their prices are a bit stupid high otherwise), Geissele Super duty if you want to go for a TON of quality of life upgrades
now if you're more into sub $1000 guns because that's your budget, then my reccomendations are slimmer
IWI Zion, or buy a blem BCM lower and a Blem BCM upper and just "clip them together"
Uppers ------
as for uppers, same with the full rifles, it's HARD to beat a blem BCM upper on their website and then grab a lower when you have time. Same with DD if you can find their uppers on sale. But honestly,
Lowers -----
BCM goes on sale all the time for $350 (ish...$25-$50 higher depending on what it comes with) which is my favorite "go to" lower. So does Sionics, sometimes SOLGW
if you want to build your own, that's where we can branch out. I really like Centurion and Zev lowers. Mega Arms as well. Geissele lowers go on sale for $80-$90 during holidays and BF is just around the corner.
some lower tier brands are really good as well, like Aero Precision, Spikes, etc.... I just steer away from cheapo ones like Anderson, PSA, Bear Creek, etc. .
osubmw1@reddit
I had to explain that to one of the guys at my club this weekend. My buddy came to shoot with me and wanted to buy his first gun. Everyone in the shop shoots some form of competition or another so I had to talk all of them way down with their recommendations.
wormraper@reddit
lol, yeah there's always a balance. a first timer can get overwhelmed with long timers reccomending tricked out 3 gun rifles to a newbie.
I mean, I'm all for "buy once, cry once" type of thing (like that $1200 Daniel Defense that's floating around...INSANE value), but you don't need to be reccomending an LMT MARS-L or KAC SR-15 to a newbie and watch their eyes pop out of their head when they see the price sticker.
AnUnhappyCamper@reddit
Iām in the opinion of if Iām having to buy an FFL item like a lower, I would buy the best tier you can afford. I bought an LMT Mars lower.
wormraper@reddit
well f@ck... you went right to the top lol. LMT Mars lowers are top notch.
BlastBaffle13@reddit
Imo the CT dot is garbage
GuyButtersnapsJr@reddit
IMHO, the S&W Sport would be a better choice for a first AR-15 over the Andro/PSA. First, the build quality will be a little higher and S&W will have better QC. Second, the S&W warranty will probably be easier to deal with.
Your first should NOT be an expensive rifle. Since the AR-15 is so modular and customizable, you won't really know what style parts you truly prefer until later. It's better to borrow and try out as many rifles, parts, furniture, accessories, etc. that you can get your hands on in the beginning.
osubmw1@reddit
I'd look at throwing together a psa kit. Building your first is pretty easy as there are resources all over the place and its rewarding. You can learn how the gun operates better and get an alright deal for a pretty decent ar.
Insanity8016@reddit
RiP GAFS
Mobile-Plankton7088@reddit
Rip in peace delton
Randommtbiker@reddit
Thanks for the feedback. I had the same question and I wasn't sure if I wanted to get the Andro or wait for PSA black friday.
Jsa1azar6@reddit
I would get the DD for that exactly . Buy once cry once.
coryhoss1@reddit
If you can find one of those $1200 DD deals go with that.
Throw a holosun aro on it, practice and once you figure out what type of optic you want buy a nice one.
wormraper@reddit
that $1179-$1199 DD deals are by FAR the best deal running for a great AR. I almost want to buy one just because it's that good of a deal.
The_NiNTARi@reddit
I bought the $360 andro sheās nice
Shellback7@reddit
Really thinking about taking this deal. It'd be my first AR and was looking at the Ruger and PSA brands. Would it be easy to convert to a .22 for my kids to do some plinking with and get used to it?
Puzzleheaded_Fix3135@reddit
These are great for the price and a great AR for a first one to build upon. Buddy had the sport 2 as his first ar and it worked great. He did end up replacing the grip, stock, charging handle, and trigger and now itās awesome. Zion is the other AR in this range to look at but itās usually a little more.
CupHot9957@reddit
First gen was my first AR when it came out. I've changed damn near everything but the bolt carrier, upper, lower, and some pins and detents. It's an awesome builder, everything worked good in stock but the upgrades made it better. A few years back I wrestled with buying a newer, more expensive AR and decided to swap the barrel for a criterion core and it shoots heavenly now. But the upper and lower, being so lightweight compared to the offerings at the time, still rock over 10 years later. I've seen some shitty $1000 ARs that the Sport beats in quality, hands down. Luckily these days there is a lot less crap around this price point. My shooting buddy swapped his for a DD and we both shoot each others' respective rifles now with about the same skill level and accuracy. I'm sure by now I've put close to $1000 in parts in the thing, but.. it was worth it.
OzempicDick@reddit
smiith and Wesson need to stop trying to make ct "happen".
zBaer@reddit
And Springfield.
queeblosan@reddit
As others have said buy the Andro and spend the money you saved on ammo
cpreils@reddit
Just a FYI, Gunzonedeals is $543 after rebate with shipping for a 10rd. No red dot but I donāt think people are in love with CT anyway. Buyer should do their homework on Gunzonedeals as I have never bought from there
KBillW@reddit
GZD is GTG. Bought may times
8WmuzzlebrakeIndoors@reddit
I remember buying an m&p sport before the pandemic for like 450-500 and then selling it during peak pandemic for 1000 š
Next_Emphasis_9424@reddit
I should have sold everything I owned during Covid. Heck I couldnāt stop at a gas station without someone offering to buy my truck.
wormraper@reddit
dude, during the first year of covid I put up cases of ammo on armslist thinking "I'll see what I could get". I ended up selling cases of 5.56 for $800 and cases of 9mm for $450... I had stockpiled so much that it wasn't a big deal, but people were literally offering $50 - $100 over my list price (I wasn't pricing it THAT high) to get some. it was nuts.
Next_Emphasis_9424@reddit
The only good sale I made during covid was selling my 1895sbl in 45-70. Never really shot it and decided for fun would just post it for sale a little higher than I would even pay for it. I swear I had to put my phone on do not disturb it was blowing up that much with people offering even higher than my asking price to reserve the rifle so they could drive to me. Could not believe it.
I had one buddy who was going moose/ black bear hunting over the weekend and his offer was I wouldnāt pay a dime for the weekend and he would give me what I was asking for it haha. Funny thing was his girlfriend told me day before he was inviting me haha. I still decided to take his offer and did top his tank off and gave him a buddy discount.
RonaldWRailgun@reddit
Really. Or at the very least, I should've kept one 9mm, one at 15, sold everything else, and bought it back 3 years later for a third of the price.
I didn't do it not because I thought the world was ending (honestly, except for the ammo situation, literally nothing was happening š), but because it's still a hassle to put everything back together.
I still regret not selling all of my cheaper junk every time I look at it now.
AllAmericanZoomer@reddit
Thatās insane!! šš
arshah786@reddit
I saw this but ended up getting the Volunteer XV for $460 after rebate. I think volunteer XV is slightly better it has a better trigger, furniture etc out the box
NewbRedditer@reddit
Should have made it $9 cheaper
Junction91NW@reddit
Or 101 dollars more expensive š¤Ā
the_matthew@reddit (OP)
It's $556 before shipping if you ignore the 97 cents!
wormraper@reddit
this is a solid entry level AR for someone looking to dip their toes in the water....the CT dot should be tossed in the trash or flipped the second you get it though.
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