C172 circuits | TheaterFire

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408548110@reddit

C172S circuits should be: Downwind at 2300 RPM for ~105 kts, landing checks complete. Base turn: reduce power 1500 RPM, start a medium LEVEL turn (don’t drop the nose), add flaps 10° (“speed below 110, flaps 10”), make your radio call, then wait for speed <85kts to add flaps 20° (say it out loud again. Now you can lower the nose for roughly 50/50 ground and sky visible in your windscreen for the rest of base - you are aiming to get performance of 75kts. Adjust your attitude as needed, remembering you need to be on final (or at least turning) by 500’ AGL. Remember to consider headwind or tailwind on base. Turn onto final at a point that you think will line you up with the centreline. Don’t be afraid to bank up to 30° but no further. Once on final, add full flaps. Now go into the workcycle “aim point, aspect, airspeed.” Aim point: are you maintaining the right attitude, which is the compass aligned with the second dash of the centreline after the threshold. Aspect: you can tell if you’re on the right glide path, or too high/low by the shape of the runway. Airspeed: maintain 65kts using power and attitude. Keep repeating that. The key thing while on final is to use power and attitude in coupling. If you’re high on final, you’ll lower the nose but also reduce power in anticipation that your airspeed is gonna increase. If you’re low, you’ll raise the nose and add power. In my experience, airspeed is the vital link in the chain for a good landing. Most schools encourage you to be too fast rather than too slow (risking a stall) on final. Completely fair, but being as close to 65kts as you pass over the threshold will set you up for a good landing. Not repeating a defined workcycle on final can lead you to fixate, get too high and force you to try and land at 70 or 75 kts - which makes landing hard, even with the right technique!

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Practical-Raisin-721@reddit

You're not starting your descent until you turn base? Maybe other folks can comment if this is standard practice or not, but I'm used to starting the descent abeam the numbers., turning base 6-700agl, final 4-500 agl. Slowing down the entire time.

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wapkaplit@reddit

That sounds crazy low to me. I was taught to start my descent at the base turn, works fine for me. Makes sense to maintain your height as long as possible so you can always make the runway if you lose the engine.

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408548110@reddit

C172S circuits should be: Downwind at 2300 RPM for ~105 kts, landing checks complete. Base turn: reduce power 1500 RPM, start a medium LEVEL turn (don’t drop the nose), add flaps 10° (“speed below 110, flaps 10”), make your radio call, then wait for speed <85kts to add flaps 20° (say it out loud again. Now you can lower the nose for roughly 50/50 ground and sky visible in your windscreen for the rest of base - you are aiming to get performance of 75kts. Adjust your attitude as needed, remembering you need to be on final (or at least turning) by 500’ AGL. Remember to consider headwind or tailwind on base. Turn onto final at a point that you think will line you up with the centreline. Don’t be afraid to bank up to 30° but no further. Once on final, add full flaps. Now go into the workcycle “aim point, aspect, airspeed.” Aim point: are you maintaining the right attitude, which is the compass aligned with the second dash of the centreline after the threshold. Aspect: you can tell if you’re on the right glide path, or too high/low by the shape of the runway. Airspeed: maintain 65kts using power and attitude. Keep repeating that. The key thing while on final is to use power and attitude in coupling. If you’re high on final, you’ll lower the nose but also reduce power in anticipation that your airspeed is gonna increase. If you’re low, you’ll raise the nose and add power. In my experience, airspeed is the vital link in the chain for a good landing. Most schools encourage you to be too fast rather than too slow (risking a stall) on final. Completely fair, but being as close to 65kts as you pass over the threshold will set you up for a good landing. Not repeating a defined workcycle on final can lead you to fixate, get too high and force you to try and land at 70 or 75 kts - which makes landing hard, even with the right technique!

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BelowAverage355@reddit

Yeah, I start descent abeam the numbers at 500 fpm from a standard circuit. I feel like it would be hard to control decent rate and not be way over speed starting descent on base, but I guess if it works and that's how you learned it then who am I to judge.

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ElPayador@reddit

90 knots approach speed / pattern altitude 80 on abeam / drop RPM / first notch flaps / TRIM for 80 and start your descend Base 75 and second notch of flaps Final 70 - 65 over the numbers I land with 20 flaps but you can go full flaps on final… Watch your airspeed… don’t get slow / below 60’s and resist the temptation to pull up… Sinking too much… add power Too slow… push the joke forward USE TRIM

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Almost_A_Pear@reddit

I was always taught that you can't descend on downwind at any point, one you turn base you start descending.

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PilotC150@reddit

That's incorrect. Descent starts on the downwind leg, roughly abeam the numbers. Check out the Airplane Flying Handbook, last paragraph of page 8-3 and continuing onto 8-4. It discussing the actual flying of the traffic pattern. [https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations\_policies/handbooks\_manuals/aviation/airplane\_handbook/09\_afh\_ch8.pdf](https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/09_afh_ch8.pdf) Specifically, it says "Pattern altitude is maintained until at least abeam the approach end of the landing runway. At this point, the pilot should reduce power and **begin a descent.** "

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Almost_A_Pear@reddit

OK, the Transport Canada Aeroplane Flught Training Manual says: |The Circuit - P.99 >Technically, the approach to landing commences on the downwind leg,at the turning point from downwind to base leg. I guess US and Can have different ideas on that.

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jet-setting@reddit

So, naturally you can do it either way. But as mentioned above, waiting until base to descend requires either a wider pattern to begin with, a longer final, or a steeper descent rate. Consider a straight in approach from pattern altitude. With no wind, and a continuous descent rate, you will need a certain amount of distance to get down. Lets take that same distance, and split it into thirds. One third on downwind, one third on base, one third on final. If we split the descent into just two segments, each segment will obviously be longer, or one will be significantly longer than the other. So to maintain a continuous descent, you could have a long base leg and ‘normal’ final, or extend downwind and have a long final, or you fly a slightly wider pattern and have both a wider final and base. Or, you fly the same pattern but your descent rate is higher. Nothing really wrong with starting descent at the turn to base, and in fact that is often what you have to do when following traffic anyway. Interesting difference I never knew existed, thanks for pointing it out.

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Almost_A_Pear@reddit

Thanks for the great breakdown

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PilotC150@reddit

Well that explains that. That's an interesting difference.

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Almost_A_Pear@reddit

Well u/Final-Muscle-7196, listen to your American friends, my advice is not valid here

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Final-Muscle-7196@reddit (OP)

Lol interesting. I am Canadian. But good to know the rules vary by crossing the border!

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Mispelled-This@reddit

How I land a C172: 85kt on downwind. Abeam the numbers, flaps 10 and 1700rpm; let the plane start to descend. Turn base, flaps 20, trim for 75kt. Turn final (should be right on glide slope), flaps 30, trim for 65kt. Over the threshold, power to idle. The details will vary a bit depending on plane, pattern size and height, winds, etc. and personal taste. What’s important is that you have a specific plan that you can execute consistently—and if you get *consistent* bad results, then you can adjust it. One bad landing, or several landings that are bad in different ways, may be just poor execution of a good plan.

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CallSignNightmare@reddit

This is how I do it

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Treader1138@reddit

This is it. I stay 15-1700 depending, and typically only use 20 flaps on final.

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tdscanuck@reddit

This, except 1500 RPM for me. OP is carrying too much power too far into the descent.

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poisonandtheremedy@reddit

You say reduce to approach speed of 65 knots **then** turn final. I would recommend you turn final at the higher 75 knots before reducing to 65 knots. You don't want to be low and slow, and stall spin, on that base to final turn. Otherwise like others have said start your descent abeam the numbers.

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tdscanuck@reddit

You don’t want to be too low & slow but 65 really isn’t a risk for that in a Cessna 172. You’re comfortably 15 knots over stall even in a 30 degree bank for normal training weights.

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poisonandtheremedy@reddit

Habits learned in training often become ingrained behavior. Pitching for final approach speed, prior to final approach, isn't a habit you want to have as you move plane to plane. Just like some folks I know who bought a hot rod aerobatics plane and promptly stall spun themselves into the ground base to final on day two of ownership. Turns out an agile biplane doesn't fly quite the same as their normal plane did.

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acepilot1975@reddit

Figure out power settings.... don't chase airspeed.

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usmcmech@reddit

You are probably making a mistake that is very common by not reducing power enough early enough. I call it “holding onto your teddy bear”. The sound of the engine is comforting and the sudden disappearing is very alarming to new pilots so you typically reduce power but not enough. This leaves you with too much energy to get rid of in a tight traffic pattern.

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ClayCrucible@reddit

Big upvote for "holding onto your teddy bear" - great image for this phenomenon! I totally did that when I was learning to land, too.

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Big_Spicy_Tuna69@reddit

That seems odd to me. At my school it was always 90kt downwind, abeam the numbers flaps 10 and pull power to 1700-1800 depending on weight and density altitude, pitch for 85kt, at the 45° mark turn base, roll out, below 85kt flaps 20 and pitch for 75kt, then turn final and flaps full 65kt. The DPEs in our area hated our slow patterns, but we never failed because of them.

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DueRequirement1440@reddit

This may be a case of the blind leading the blind, but I'll tell you what I (also a student) does... We have a checklist for this, and you need to follow your school's/CFI's SOP/checklist, but... when abeam the numbers, reduce RPM to 1500 or so, slow to 75 knots, when in the arc, add 10 deg. of flaps. At about 45 degrees from the end of the runway, turn base, add another 10 deg of flaps and maintain about 70 knots. At this point, I'm looking at the runway, the PAPIs, and the ground. If I'm high, I reduce throttle, if I'm low, add throttle. Turn final when I'm at the right point to make it a decent 90-ish degree turn, add final flaps, pitch for about 60-65 knots (I'm really bad at maintaining one airspeed.). At this point, it's all the PAPIs and maintaining centerline. If I'm high, throttle goes to idle. I'm really high, idle + a slip. Once I see one red light on the PAPis, I bring in some throttle so I don't descend through the glide slope. During all of this, I don't think I ever look at my altimeter. It's all airspeed and outside references. Looking at the altimeter only works at that one airport, unless you're calculating AGL constantly while managing everything else and that's crazy talk.

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Herebemyusername@reddit

lol we might have the same CFI, thats exactly what I do too

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brez@reddit

Tight circuits are better; if you lose your engine, just land. I also teach pitch sight picture at idle, that way you don't have to continuously look at the airspeed indicator (there's a direct coloration between pitch attitude and speed in a light aircraft) and chase the needle.

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EliteEthos@reddit

Remember, pitch for airspeed, power for altitude. If you pull a bit of power, add nose up trim. Trim until you get the desired airspeed. More power out, more trim. Once you get the desired descent rate, just pitch for the speed

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andybader@reddit

“If you pull a bit of power, add nose up trim.” This sounds counterintuitive, but is it because reducing the power will cause less airflow over the wings and cause the nose to drop?

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makgross@reddit

Yes. You’re missing trim. It’s effectively impossible to fly well while out of trim, yet every student pilot tries it. Your altitude and airspeed will deviate to the trim whenever your attention goes somewhere else. Which is constant in the pattern.

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SubMireLurker@reddit

Disclaimer: also a PPL student, post solo, USA not Canada, and obviously my way is not *the way* I'm in 172s, S and N models. The sequence I developed from what I was taught is: Downwind: checklist (fuel, mix, lights), throttle 1800RPM, 80kts, flaps 10° Base: 1700RPM, 75kts, flaps 20°, descend ~500ft between base turn and base to final. Final: 1600RPM, flaps 30°, 70kts until over airport threshold then reduce to 65kts, gently reduce to full idle when crossing runway threshold in preparation for round out Easy increments to remember. 1800/80/10 1700/75/20 1600/70/30 My CFIs taught me to carry 5kts extra on final in case of unexpected wind and it has saved my ass a few times. But doing 90kts IS gonna make it go faster, especially if you're flying tight patterns as opposed to wider. It's a lot to remember at first, and pattern work is the phase of flight with the heaviest workload! I train at one of the busiest Deltas in the country (KBJC). It's not uncommon to have 6-7 other planes doing laps with me, plus regular arrivals/departures. Early in my training I had a day of pattern work where there were so many people in the airspace there wasn't a single moment of silence on the radio for over an hour, among other factors- it was so stressful that when I got home at noon I slept the rest of the day. My acronym to remember the flow is FML, TF (fuel, mixture, lights, throttle, flaps) or "F*ck my life, the f*ck?" because that's how I was feeling that day 🤣 if that's helpful.

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acniv@reddit

If your solo’d get away from the instructors and fly the pattern by yourself until you are comfortable. 85/75/65 kias is standard practice at our FS in a c172, with 1/2/3 notch of flaps corresponding with each speed change (ergo, 1 notch at 85, abeam, begin 500FPM descent, turn base, 75, 2nd notch, continue descent, turn final, 65, last notch, use VASI/PAPI to determine proper slope. Where I am, they teach beginning descent abeam the numbers at pattern altitude (downwind). That’s it, if winds are not gnarly, normal operations and traffic is reasonable, should be a very repeatable process/outcome every time. Get away from barking CFIs if your solo’d and put your time in where you can think through everything. Pattern altitude shouldn’t be negotiable. IMO, this is one area simulated flight can help a good deal.

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dumbassretail@reddit

I usually pull the power just before/while turning base. Maybe a touch earlier if I’m number one and trying to keep it in tight. Pull the power (to 1500ish), start the turn, make sure I am below flap extension speed, and start adding some flap. If I am not using flap, power to almost idle may be appropriate. Pulling power on downwind seems a bit odd to me, and isn’t going to work if you have to extend for other traffic.

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N546RV@reddit

> The circuit seems so tight. Any circuit is going to seem tight to you right now. You're learning a new thing, and there's a lot of stuff to deal with in a relatively compressed period of time. This will get better as you learn. It is of course possible to fly larger circuits, and give yourself more time to do these things, but now you're instilling a habit that's not great. Much better to keep your patterns tight, it's a good habit to have. > Because the current circuit puts me nearly idle coming off downwind to hit those targets… Nothing wrong with that.

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ph1294@reddit

I used to do way too tight circuts, but my instructors gave me shit for it so

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Final-Muscle-7196@reddit (OP)

Good to know! You are right. Some of the lessons it’s like bam bam bam manevour complete. Like you said, it’s new, hesitation like am I doing this right, what did I forget .. oh snap everything’s good and I’ve got 15 seconds to spare? Oh wow! 🤣

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Almost_A_Pear@reddit

OK, the Transport Canada Aeroplane Flught Training Manual says: |The Circuit - P.99 >Technically, the approach to landing commences on the downwind leg,at the turning point from downwind to base leg. I guess US and Can have different ideas on that.

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EntroperZero@reddit

Too high is better than too low. :) If you're consistently way too high, there are a few things you can try: 1700 rpm instead of 1800, extending downwind slightly, or flying a slightly wider pattern so you have a longer base. Pay attention to the wind, too. If you have a crosswind on the runway, it will either be a headwind or a tailwind on base. Just a 10 knot wind could make your groundspeed on base anywhere between 65 to 85, and the difference is very noticeable.

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