[A350] I had no idea an A350 could do a 9000 mile pull. Almost 18hrs?? Crazy!!!
    
        Posted by No_Cranberry1853@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 73 comments
No_Cranberry1853@reddit (OP)
Why did my post get removed?
Cesalv@reddit
Yep, Singapore Airlines is the only operator using the a350-900ULR, designed to reach 9700 miles
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/news/2018-10-the-ultra-long-range-a350-xwb-brings-key-destinations-closer-together-with
Consistent-Welder458@reddit
One thing I don't understand is on what basis do manufacturers publish these range figures. The 9700 miles is definitely not with full payload so what is the cutoff until they can claim they "designed it for X range".
For example A321XLR is advertised 4700NM but can only manage 3500NM on full payload. How did Airbus determine that they'd advertise only till 4700 and not even further?
SherryJug@reddit
Good question actually.
Let's do some heavily simplified calculations:
The range R is directly proportional to: ln(sqrt(M0)-sqrt(M1))
So let's set x as our payload variable such that: x = 0 when Mfuel = MaxFuel and M0 = MTOW
M1 will then be M when the all the fuel has been spent. This means that when x < 0 we have max fuel, and when x > 0 we start trading fuel for payload.
We can then write: R \~ ln(sqrt(min(MTOW+x, MTOW) - sqrt(max(MTOW-MaxFuel, MTOW-MaxFuel+x)))
Let's now consider payload in the simplest way possible, let's say when using max fuel and x = 0, the aircraft should be at MTOW, that is: P = MTOW-OEW-MaxFuel+x
And let's now say that the revenue obtained from a flight is a product of range and payload, that is: REV \~ R*P
Taking the rough values for an A321 XLR in metric tons: MTOW = 101 MaxFuel = 33 OEW = 50
We have: REV \~ (18+x)*ln(sqrt(min(101, 101+x)) - sqrt(max(68, 68+x)))
When you put this into Wolfram Alpha and plot it, you get maximum revenue at, you probably guessed it: x = 0 :)
This means, for this very simplified calculation, that you'd get the most money when filling the tanks to their maximum capacity and then adding payload until you reach MTOW.
This is really obvious, if you think about it, as there's a discontinuity in the range vs. payload graph once the tanks are full, and you start getting a much lower increase in range for every decrease in payload.
Reality will probably not be exactly like this super simplified scenario, but it probably isn't far off either.
nalc@reddit
Uh, they have payload range curves and then the airlines look at what they're trying to do and figure it out? It's not like some airline exec is scrolling on BezosMart and is like "ooh, an A320XLR has 4700nmi but a 737-8 only has 4100nmi, and it has 2 day shipping, let me get that!"
Airlines know what payload and range they need for their routes, regardless of what numbers go into Jane's or whatever
Consistent-Welder458@reddit
Well seeing as Wizz Air seemed surprised their densely packed A321XLRs couldn't fly too far and as a result have converted most of it to standard NEO I'm not sure it's that well conveyed to airlines all the time.
thesuperunknown@reddit
True, but Qantas is planning to use the ULR variant of the A350-1000 for their Project Sunrise routes between Sydney/Melbourne and London/New York
No_Greed_No_Pain@reddit
This is the second incarnation of the Singapore to NYC non-stop. There was an all business class service to EWR that operated 2004-2013 until Singapore Airlines retired the A340-500 that operated that flight. Depending on the wind, it took between 18 and 19 hours.
No_Cranberry1853@reddit (OP)
What their coach seating like for a trip like that? How does it does it differ from standard Southwest flights etc. Just curios thanks
ahirebet@reddit
Most major Asian airlines are leagues ahead of American carriers when it comes to comfort and service. The regular coach seats on Singapore Airlines are comparable to domestic first class. Premium Economy is even better. And Business/First is truly like nothing you've seen.
Photos: Singapore Premium Economy
Lady_Airbus@reddit
I wouldn’t go that far. Economy on Singapore Airlines is well… economy. Most of their planes now use the CL3710 seat model, which is the same seat found on British Airways, Qatar Airways, Delta Air Lines, Virgin Atlantic, etc. Based on my experience, CL3710s aren’t that comfortable and the old seats that are on 777s and older A350s are much better.
Premium economy is competitive and is actually a good product. Business class, I think is overrated: the seat is hard, I hate how you have to sleep at an angle, and footspace is pretty small. No opinion on first class though.
What Singapore Airlines does well with is service, otherwise the seats are not much to write home about.
futuremonkey20@reddit
It has a modified fuel system and is premium economy and business class seats only so it flies with a much lighter load.
kummybears@reddit
Sounds amazing
whyisthiswhatwegot@reddit
I have flown Seattle to Singapore on a Singapore Airlines A350-900, the flight was 16 hours and the economy class was pretty standard, I think it’s like a 32” seat pitch which is pretty typical. I would assume they would use a similar A350-900 for this too as they are pretty similar flights
goose38@reddit
No economy on the ULR a350 used on this route. Only premium economy and business. Can be found with a quick search
lopsided-earlobe@reddit
No
cwajgapls@reddit
No pure coach. Premium Eco + biz
Not bad, it’s a pretty cool ride.
kwp302@reddit
It’s an Ultra Long Range variant that carries fewer passengers (only business class and premium economy), limited cargo, and increased fuel capacity
junaidnk@reddit
Hold on, is that why our American Airlines flight from Madrid to Philly was just Main Cabin and above?
Lady_Airbus@reddit
Main Cabin is economy…
028247@reddit
How big a factor is passenger weight? In my layperson's mind the plane was like hundreds of tons, and a human like a couple of needles' difference
noodleofdata@reddit
I imagine it's a combination of things, but pretty much the person themselves isn't the only weight that comes with more passengers, there is also their luggage and the seating. That all adds up.
Pro_Pain_TTV@reddit
A350 900 is almost 250,000 lbs empty.
If we only assume 300 people at 150 lbs each, that's already ~45,000 lbs without factoring cargo or luggage.
Pretty considerable already.
Comfortable_Yard_968@reddit
That explains the want more space and relying on the meals & several videos in their in-seat TVs for exercises to reduce jet lag. Don’t drink alcohol & too much coffee btw.
rapzeh@reddit
18 hours in a plane also soulds like a pull for passangers. Crosse the ocean multiple times and 9 hours is a stretch as is.
soarer205@reddit
Welcome to living in Australia, if you want to go to Europe especially from the east coast you are in for 22 hours in the air with generally a 14 hour leg somewhere mixed in (e.g. Singapore to Heathrow)
catsdrooltoo@reddit
All my international flights suck. I can't sleep on a plane to save my life. Tried pulling all nighters the day before, sleep meds otc and rx, drinking just enough to be drowsy. None of it gets me asleep on a flight. I think I slept like 45 minutes on a 777 where I had 4 seats to myself and laid down.
onedollalama@reddit
i've taken this flight a couple times, on=e round trip in business and 2 RT's in premium economy. AMA!
CouchPotatoFamine@reddit
Did you have the chicken or the fish?
mmartabq@reddit
Yes, I remember; I had the lasagna.
justdoubleclick@reddit
In business you can book the cook and choose lobster if you want..
onedollalama@reddit
catering on this flight is excellent, so both and then the beef for your third full meal lol
028247@reddit
What brings you to Singapore (or any other destinations)?
onedollalama@reddit
Chili crab and Laksa cravings.
amir_s89@reddit
Whats your advise, so that people can endure such long durations?
st_malachy@reddit
Did the 14hr Doha to Sea flight on Qatar a bit ago. Travel pillow is key, along with headphones and plenty to watch and turn your brain off to. It’s long but not unbearable.
onedollalama@reddit
try not to have a mental breakdown after sleeping for 6 hours and realizing you still have 9 more hours on the flight.
Dochorahan@reddit
Was it worth it? Would you do it again?
onedollalama@reddit
saves a bunch of time not changing planes in Tokyo or Shanghai!
DudleyAndStephens@reddit
I did SQ22 (SIN-EWR) back in 2022 and am taking SQ21 (EWR-SIN) next week. Fun experience, SQ is a really nice airline.
Tortenthusiast@reddit
How badly did you wish to be in business class on the 2 premium economy trips?
onedollalama@reddit
premium economy for first 2 trips - then got a very good random milage upgrade deal for the third trip.
culprit020893@reddit
I’ve heard Sing air PE is really nice. Was it decent on that long of a trip?
Poopy_sPaSmS@reddit
Are there two flight crews for these long flights?
shocky32@reddit
Yes
ahu_huracan@reddit
i already did 16h flight... same crew
No_Cranberry1853@reddit (OP)
Going to New York, I would think it would be faster to go East from takeoff, but Im sure they know better than I lol.
cwajgapls@reddit
…isn’t that what they are doing? Flying east?
SelectAirline7459@reddit
Only time you would fly directly east for any distance is between two points on the equator
cwajgapls@reddit
Ok I meant “eastward” as opposed to “westward”
flyingcircusdog@reddit
Since Singapore and NYC are both north of the equator, it's shorter to head northeast. Australia to the US goes east.
PhigNewtenz@reddit
I'm confused. This image clearly shows the flight traveling eastbound from Singapore to NYC. It takes a route that benefits from prevailing winds (and doesn't go directly across Russia as the shortest straight-line path would).
The interesting fact about this pair of routes (SQ23 and SQ24) is that they're often/typically BOTH flown eastbound. The reciprocal flight out of NYC departs east over the Atlantic, flies over Europe, the cuts between Russia and Iran on the way to Singapore.
Again—flight restrictions and winds.
saint_nicolai@reddit
You also have to consider wind. The jet stream can give you about 100 knots (1800 miles over the course of the flight) for most of a flight if you're lucky
pup5581@reddit
Winds are going W to E.
bluestonelaneway@reddit
I was at Changi waiting to fly back to Australia and my flight was leaving just before this one. A woman from NYC flying back to JFK got talking to some Australians nearby, and I overheard her saying she could never fly to Australia because it’s just too far. Meanwhile she was about to take the longest scheduled passenger flight in the world. Confusing.
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Pale-Ad-8383@reddit
That’s a short day for that flight too!
Comfortable_Yard_968@reddit
I could imaging if SIA wants to reach the United hubs of Chicago & Houston if they convert their A350 & 787 or using their new 777X to reach more US and Canadian markets. Toronto &/or Montreal soon?
mencival@reddit
Very interesting (for me) to find out that return flight sometimes opts to fly eastward, completing a whole loop around the world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Airlines_Flights_23_and_24
camm131986@reddit
I did 13 hours to Tokyo in business and it was barely tolerable. I’m not sure how I would fare on this flight. I’d still take it though.
1-Word-Answers@reddit
Sometimes they follow great circle routes other times the do jetstreams. I think I saw an EWR-SIN going east from the US instead of west because the winds were better
DudleyAndStephens@reddit
The EWR-SIN flights almost always go east. They take the great circle route maybe 5% of the time from what I’ve seen.
Over_engineered81@reddit
About a month ago, I did YYZ-HKG and we flew over the pole. On the return trip, we flew over Japan and Alaska for the jetstream.
EdHimselfonReddit@reddit
Agree. I did JFK to NRT in business in a half empty 777 and I was climbing the walls after about 8 hours.
ckanderson@reddit
Last I did 13 hours first class was MSP to Tokyo on a Northwest 747 late 90’s or early 00’s. Nowadays if I can just get an empty seat next to me in economy for the same leg it’s ezpz 😴
lopsided-earlobe@reddit
Sometimes they fly east, sometimes they fly west.
ScienceYAY@reddit
You can't explain that
itswednesday@reddit
sure you can - wind.
bmwkid@reddit
No economy on these flights.
They’re likely going to use going to use these planes to do the London to Sydney flights when they launch next year
https://www.timeout.com/australia/news/the-worlds-longest-non-stop-flight-is-set-to-take-off-from-australia-in-2027-032825
There’s a bunch of Singapore flights that fly on the 787 if you’re willing to go to the west coast and the prices are pretty good. United and Air Canada are the main two airlines running these. Air Canada also has Bangkok service which is the only North American airline flying there
Competitive-Draw8223@reddit
I’ve always wondered all these long legged flights are financial feasible for an airline. I’m sure it’s not run daily, but how much can they really make off it?
This is similar to there being talks of flights from Miami International, where I currently work, to Japan. The talks increased during the Wild Baseball Classic a few years ago, and I had the chance to see the JAL 787 on the airfield.
eliminate1337@reddit
It actually is run daily in both directions. They probably make a plenty since it has loads of business class seats between two financial hubs.
Schmittez@reddit
Project Sunrise is planned to run direct from Sydney to London with a distance of \~17000km and a 20h flight time.
flyingcircusdog@reddit
Yes, it uses a premium-heavy seating layout and limits the amount of cargo it'll bring.