Near Mid-Air Collision between Helicopter and Southwest Plane at Cleveland
Posted by risen2011@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 82 comments
Posted by risen2011@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 82 comments
SkyHighExpress@reddit
I am curious, are tcas RA dealt with so casually in the us? I would have expected southwest to make a concise RA call and ATC to leave him alone, perhaps only give him a heading but certainly not an altitude until he calls clear of conflict. Tcas is pretty much the last line of defence and you don’t want an atc instruction that conflicts. Also from a pilot point of view, the thing that you are visual with might not be the thing that tcas is worried about
Nasmix@reddit
This is why visual separation is dangerous and really imho should not be used or allowed. In this case the entire safety system depended on 2 pairs of human eyeballs.
yourlocalFSDO@reddit
Unfortunately without visual separation some airports, looking at you SFO, would grind to a halt
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Good ol' case of moving airplanes > safety.
yourlocalFSDO@reddit
Everything is a compromise. The best way to prevent an accident is to park all the airplanes but obviously we’re not going to do that
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
It shouldn't be an unreasonable expectation that an airliner flying under IFR gets to fly an IFR approach at their destination, regardless of the weather conditions.
yourlocalFSDO@reddit
As I said in another comment, that would require cutting the number of flights into a place like SFO in half. That is something that simply is not going to happen
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Oh, well, until the next visual separation at night midair then...
Designer_Buy_1650@reddit
It doesn’t make it right. I’ve had two events on the approach to 28L where an aircraft intercepting the 28R final overshot. Being belly up.
yourlocalFSDO@reddit
I agree 100%. I hate going into SFO it’s an accident waiting to happen. But unfortunately there’s a 0% chance the FAA is going to do anything about it
Designer_Buy_1650@reddit
Exactly. Eventually an accident will happen. Maybe then they’ll fill the bay in and build another runway
Or at night an aircraft may take the highspeed off 28R and not realize there’s no taxiway separating the runways. Hate to be the Debbie downer, but eventually it will happen.
troglodytez@reddit
There’s a pretty big difference between parallel landing visual separation (routine and expected) and visual separation with one non-landing aircraft passing in front of the flight path. Visual separation itself is less of a factor than the courses the aircraft are on.
yourlocalFSDO@reddit
True, but the comment I replied to said visual separation shouldn’t be used allowed at all
Nasmix@reddit
Yea - while I think there are problems generally - there is a different between a briefed and well understood parallel approach and random paths when it comes to visual separation
CotswoldP@reddit
"We have to operate unsafely or we couldn't operate" doesn't sound bad like a great response. What happened to Dr Reason? The visual separation slice of cheese has huge holes in it.
yourlocalFSDO@reddit
I don’t disagree with you. But try telling people that you need to cut the number of flights to SFO in half. It’s simply not going to happen
TigerUSA20@reddit
I Here it a lot on SJC (San Jose), which is very near SFO.
radioref@reddit
How about medivac helo pilots not try to shoot gaps in front of landing jet traffic. Dumb, reckless move
Nasmix@reddit
Well yes it was. Just like shooting the Potomac right in the threshold of the runway
Point being one careless move shouldn’t endanger hundreds of people.
wearsAtrenchcoat@reddit
The helicopter said twice that were maintaining separation. They didn’t. Controller asked if they could pass behind the 73, they said ”no we rather go above and in front”. They didn’t.
I don’t feel like this has anything to do with ATC and all to do with the helicopter. If Southwest didn’t turn and go around there could have been a midair collision.
I hate to point fingers but it’s hard not to wonder why they would get that close with traffic they supposedly had in sight
LostPilot517@reddit
It is incredibly difficult to judge direction and closure rate from a fast moving platform with another fast moving platform in 4D space.
With that said, maintaining visual separation should be taken to mean taking a wide berth, not let me cut this as close as possible without deviating from my flight path because I can the traffic.
Helicopters are incredibly difficult to spot from a jet, as they are small, having very little visible structure when flying, and are often well below your fixed wing altitudes, so they blend into the ground clutter. It is extremely important for helicopters to visually see and maintain safe separation from fixed wing aircraft in the see and avoid realm.
mattrussell2319@reddit
Based on the top comment by a helicopter pilot on YouTube, from a Just Culture perspective the systems issue here is the use of visual separation, as in the DCA accident. Since it’s so difficult to effectively maintain visual separation, give the helicopter pilot a specific heading and altitude.
Weekly-Drama-4118@reddit
I don’t disagree with the point on visual separation, but I really doubt that guy is a commercial pilot if he threw out holding a hover as a possibility here
Immortalic5@reddit
Helo pilot here, PPL only so far. I’m not outrunning a 737, but that’s just me. I don’t care if they see me or not.
wearsAtrenchcoat@reddit
That’s my point exactly: if you can’t do something, whether because it’s difficult or any other reason, you say so and go for a safer option.
For them to act like they can maintain separation and then clearly not doing it seems reckless
Paranoma@reddit
Bingo. That’s exactly it. Helicopter at fault.
Conscious_Award1444@reddit
How much is life flight if you need to be airlifted from an accident?
Drew1231@reddit
Depends if you buy the approach incursion package to get you to the hospital faster.
hartzonfire@reddit
Armchair observer here-what's the topography around this airport? Why does the helicopter need to be at 2000 feet?
BuckeyeReason@reddit
Increased risk of collisions if Burke Lakefront Airport closes and Greater Cleveland population mushrooms due to climate change migration?
AliveInCLE@reddit
The first scenario needs to happen. The second one never will.
BuckeyeReason@reddit
The negative impacts of closing Burke are being ignored. Only ignorant persons or climate change deniers discount the inevitability of a climate change migration. E.g., are you aware that NOAA and NASA have predicted 18 inches to a foot of sea level rise off the Gulf of Mexico and Florida by 2050 and climate change experts fear more likely 2-3 feet.
https://www.propublica.org/article/climate-change-will-force-a-new-american-migration
https://www.theinvadingsea.com/2023/03/29/miami-harold-wanless-sea-level-rise/
Chip89@reddit
That’s really weird that’s an MH helicopter since it’s going to an UH hospital which has their own helicopter in Medina and runs that flight all the time.
TheTangoFox@reddit
Start making these guys cross over midfield perpendicular
Approach_Controller@reddit
Sorry. Make a medivac take a detour? I'm not saying this was done right or anything, but if its an either or situation the 737 is going around each and every time.
Blueberry_Mancakes@reddit
Helicopters have been causing air traffic mayhem lately.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
I wonder why ATC didn't instruct them to hold before the extended centerline until they've were visual with the 737, and then issue a clearance to pass behind it.
Middleage_dad@reddit
My guess: these ATC folks are all overworked, overstressed and not getting paid. I’m kind of glad I don’t have any plans to fly ATM
DomitiusAhenobarbus_@reddit
I have 3 flights in the next 2 months lol
hurbungy@reddit
I have 5 scheduled this week lol
Middleage_dad@reddit
You have three scheduled! I wonder if you’ll get to do all of them!
DomitiusAhenobarbus_@reddit
No issues with JFK this weekend 🤷🏻♂️
b-side61@reddit
So far.
mflboys@reddit
Because LN aircraft have operational priority, and visual is a legal and generally safe form of separation used across the globe.
radioref@reddit
That helicopter tried to shoot a gap that wasn’t obtainable. It was a reckless and stupid move.
mflboys@reddit
I agree
F1super@reddit
Positive control, followed by the application of Visual Separation would have been the more appropriate decision here.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
You can still have visual separation, once aircraft actually see each other.
This was more like let's hope for the best.
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Sea-Cheesecake-7053@reddit
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Paranoma@reddit
This would have been safe and completely avoidable had the helicopter pilot actually maneuvered the aircraft to stay out of WN’s way. Absolutely unacceptable lack of action or communication if something had prevented him from climbing. He literally did nothing. At the third communication tower should have given him instruction to cross the numbers or just vectored him along a heading of 060 until separation was ensured.
Independent-Stick85@reddit
Bro, did he really try to cut it in front of landing 737?
doom_pizza@reddit
Bro yea bro he did bro.
ExoticBump@reddit
You got a problem with him saying, bro?
dendronee@reddit
Bro is way overused Bro
ExoticBump@reddit
Relax slugger
dendronee@reddit
⚾️
William_Shaftner@reddit
Don’t call me bro, friend.
dendronee@reddit
Thats right…. Bruh
whats_a_quasar@reddit
I'm not your friend, buddy
ExoticBump@reddit
I'm not talking to you slick. Relax.
doom_pizza@reddit
No. As mentioned in my other comment, it’s my old ma yells at cloud thing. The kids these days say bro too much. I’m fully aware it’s a dumb thing to even care about.
SmallRocks@reddit
Did uh… something get under your skin here?
doom_pizza@reddit
No. It’s just my old man yells at cloud moment.
ActionManMLNX@reddit
Understandable, im 25 and i hate how these bozos just talk like parrots
DentateGyros@reddit
The only thing keeping this from being a repeat of DC was the fact that the LifeFlight had a TCAS on board. Directing the LifeFlight to pass through the runway approach, at a typical approach altitude, while Southwest was on approach was just poor decision-making, and no amount of visual separation should have made this okay, both because the Southwest pilots shouldn't have to be playing Frogger while in this critical phase of flight and because as we learned from DC, visual separation is prone to error.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
TCAS isn't required on both aircraft to work.
All airliners are required to be equipped with TCAS, so as long as it is operating (we can fly a few days without in some cases), it will generate a traffic advisory (TA, "traffic, traffic") for any intruding aircraft that has at least a mode A transponder. If the intruding traffic has a transponder with altitude reporting (at least mode C), then TCAS can also generate a variety of resolution advisaries (RA, e.g. "climb/descend/level off/..."), which we as pilots have to follow at all times, unless complying with an instruction would create a greater risk, and we generally advise the ATC with "Callsign 123, TCAS RA" standardised phraseology (perhaps less so in USA, as we can hear on the video).
In an absolute ideal scenario , if both aircraft have TCAS as well as mode S transponders, the TCAS computers on board both aircraft create a datalink connection and can negotiate and co-ordinate TCAS commands, meaning one aircraft will get e.g. a climb RA command, while the other one will get a descend RA command.
LandscapePenguin@reddit
So what happened in DC that allowed the collision? Was it because TCAS turns off at low altitudes?
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Yes, some parts of TCAS are inhibited at low altitude.
DogFurDiamond@reddit
Poopy_sPaSmS@reddit
Is it normal for any air traffic to be allowed to cross a landing or take off path so close to an airport? I have absolutely no experience it seems it would be weird to allow ANY traffic from crossing certain paths around airports.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
To cross, yes. To get a carte blanche clearance before being visual with the other traffic, and without an explicit instruction to cross behind/above much faster traffic? That should definitely not happen.
Poopy_sPaSmS@reddit
Thanks!
9welkzie98sdu@reddit
Pretty obvious there needs to be some sort of major reform for helicopters and what’s the ‘norm’. Just makes zero sense how it’s acceptable for helicopters to cross the final path of an aircraft. Also in this example it’s wild to me the helicopter says what he’s planning on doing and the controller just says “Roger”. Come on
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Crossing of the path is not an issue in itself, it's more that the clearance was given before the helicopter had the 737 in sight, and there was no instruction to cross behind and above the 737.
ATC could have issued a clearance to hold before the ILS, watch for the 737 to go past, and then clear the helicopter through, and we would have never heard about it.
rmhoman@reddit
They were cleared through a class Bravo. Responsibility falls on ATC to navigate them through it safely. If ATC is just relying on Mark 1 eyeballs then we get this, or worse.
350smooth@reddit
Ahhh, the old “we’ll maintain visual separation.” Where have I heard that one before.
goodcleanchristianfu@reddit
"And if we're wrong, it will very quickly not be our problem."
TigerUSA20@reddit
I listen to radios a lot. They never say how much separation 😊
Complex_Substance656@reddit
People gonna start calling helicopters slurs if they keep this stuff up
OneMadChihuahua@reddit
One of the reasons I kinda retired myself from flying is two very close near midair collisions. One was at KCRQ in marginal IFR with my instructor. A helicopter was not in contact with the field in class D and literally popped out of the clouds directly in the glidescope path for runway 24. The second was at Ramona airfield before it was towered when we were departing the pattern after takeoff and some knucklehead flew into the pattern unannounced and \~100 feet right over us.
Designer_Buy_1650@reddit
On final at Las Vegas for west landing. About 4 miles out told to circle to land 19L. Maneuvering to land we get a RA to climb. Guess what caused it? A helicopter taking off from the north side of the airport. I was furious.