Two Air India pilots grounded for operating flights without mandatory licence requirements
Posted by Twitter_2006@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 121 comments
FinancialMilk1@reddit
I never once made this claim. You’re just putting words in my mouth and dancing around what I said because you got called out. But okay, go ahead and be racist. See where that gets you in life.
Slick_rickey@reddit
It's not just pilots that have fake certifications, it's a common practice in India.
NotesCollector@reddit
Prepare to be down voted and called a racist for saying this.
Existing-Help-3187@reddit
It is racist since its not a common practice in India.
NotesCollector@reddit
There we go, playing the racist card. I suppose from your perspective, India is a paradise with no scams? The country has regressed under Modi - someone I know who was born in India but left nailed it on the head when he said that "Modi is not an intelligent man, but he is clever in making people think that he is clever and the man of the century."
https://www.trtworld.com/article/23e1fe1c3220
Existing-Help-3187@reddit
It is racist because there is literally no fake pilots with fake licenses in India.
NotesCollector@reddit
The first page of a Google search tells me otherwise.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-12857742
https://www.thetimes.com/travel/destinations/asia-travel/india/airline-pilots-fly-on-fake-licences-w79ctmxkc0h
Existing-Help-3187@reddit
15 year old news, I was talking in the present tense. Show me a single case in the last 10 years, or just a single case after the 15 cases in 2011.
cozywolf1332@reddit
U guys cant even pretend to open the article to see what was lapsed.
NotesCollector@reddit
I did open and read the article. Sadly it hasn't inspired greater confidence on the state of Indian aviation for me.
aviation-ModTeam@reddit
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Bunny_2711@reddit
read the article , rational thinking is declining in west
Big__Bean8@reddit
Pattern recognition
Existing-Help-3187@reddit
Its not.
hoitytoitypitot@reddit
Another moronic comment from a bigoted redditor who knows nothing about Indian aviation.
MMAPredictor@reddit
I agree. I’ve come across two here in Europe in the accountant trade;
2.Interviewed a Woman who claimed to be a member of a well known accountancy body. As part of verification process in light of the previous issue, I contacted that professional body who never heard of her. She had edited someone else’s qualification certificate.
It must be frustrating for genuine Indian workers to see so many of their fellow country men do things like this.
ainsley-@reddit
Not to turn this into a non aviation discussion but you just have to look at the trucking industries of all Anglo western countries in the last 5 years to see this…
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
Had this discussion with someone, an Indian, and they were earnest when they said “You can’t blame Indians for such things, it is the culture, part of everyday life.”
Zero shame.
Tomorrow those fake pilots will go to one of many ‘employment agencies’ who for a fee will produce magical documents attesting that they are highly skilled engineers, or perhaps some other industry.
NotesCollector@reddit
Did the person elaborate further? Seems crazy that faking things would come off as second nature
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
They said it’s ingrained in them from day one. Dishonesty how nonIndians view it is not dishonesty how Indians view it.
Long discussion on pride, status, entitlement, disregard for others, caste system,… could follow but what’s the point? Not like it will change anything.
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fly_awayyy@reddit
You do know right here in the good ole USA Alaskan pilots are guilty of the same flying GA planes? We generally brush it off it’s just not talked about much.
GurraJG@reddit
Bit of a difference between flying a GA plane in rural Alaska with a fake licence and flying a literal airliner with a fake licence.
Existing-Help-3187@reddit
No fake license issue in this case.
forreddituse2@reddit
It is the part of life. Check this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/mar/20/relatives-scale-buildings-indian-students-cheat-exams-video
If you grow in this environment and see other people step on you by such way, you must be a saint not to mimic it. (When Canada (US IT industry too) imported millions of them, what will happen is obvious. )
aviation-ModTeam@reddit
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rdndsouza@reddit
They are not fake pilots, one had a lapsed english proficiency test and the other failed a bi annual instrument’s rating test. There is nothing to suggest they were fake pilots. Air india should be more proactive to ensure pilots complete all the mandatory trainings though.
FinancialMilk1@reddit
Any response to this u/GoodGoodGoody or did you just want a free pass to be racist?
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
What response do you want? Indian pilots were flying with proper documents? And if you’re saying India doesn’t have a national problem with fake everything, well, OK.
But sure u/rdndsouza the truth is “racist”.
FinancialMilk1@reddit
The truth? Which truth? The one where you fantasized about them being fake engineers? Lmao.
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
Truth is they faked being qualified to have control of that AC.
Truth is also that you want to write a fantasy that excuses this unprofessional behaviour. Like I said, if you think India doesn’t have a serious credibility and fake qualifications problem then good luck.
FinancialMilk1@reddit
You claimed that they were fake pilots, which they’re not. Don’t switch your story now that you got called out for stereotyping an entire group of people when all you could’ve done is read the article.
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
No current papers. Fake.
And dangerous, entitled, and a bunch of other things.
But good luck saying India doesn’t have a significant problem and history of fakes.
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
When commercial pilots take possession of an AC, especially one with passengers, they acknowledge that they are legally, physically, and mentally capable to complete their duties.
These pilots faked that but here you are, “It was just…”
dredeth@reddit
I'm not joining either side of the debate here, but I want to ask the question for those who say "it's just an expired English proficiency test", who many crashes or near misses have happened due to "just an English language misunderstanding"?
doabarrelroll69@reddit
Quite a few, Avianca flight 52 probably being the most famous example.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Quite a few, but not enough to convince our friends in the USA to stick to standardised phraseology, and of course USA is one of the countries that doesn't require a radiotelephony practical exam, or doesn't require periodic testing of pilots, who don't achieve native level of English language proficiency.
And that's before we get to things like some countries permitting the use of local language at busy airports and in busy airspace, thus reducing situation awareness of pilots who don't speak that language.
National pride before safety sometimes, unfortunately.
hoitytoitypitot@reddit
This comment should be higher. Most of the other commenters just seem to not really understand the nuance at play here and are ready to jump on a South Asia bashing spree.
ashwinsaval@reddit
I'm Indian. I don't know what that person implied by "it is the culture". We don't encourage cheating and is generally frowned upon.
Part of everyday life doesn't imply cheating is encouraged. Sometimes there are no options because beauracracy is very slow in India.
Patrahayn@reddit
What a shit take - things taking long does not make cheating or lying acceptable an you saying this proves it is part of the culture because you can’t even realise it’s bad
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
We don’’t encourage it!
(Except when things are taking too long.)
msut77@reddit
Tell them cool story bro we already this conversation.
https://cchr.uu.nl/widow-burning-the-burning-issue-of-colonial-britain-and-india/
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
I mean to start with maybe use some paragraphs…
ALA02@reddit
McGonagall: “When something happens, why is it always you three?”
Cuts to India, Pakistan and Bangladesh
aviation-ModTeam@reddit
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PotatoFeeder@reddit
Replace Bangladesh with Aerosucre
ballimi@reddit
Nepal
creedz286@reddit
Had bangladesh had the same issue? Only aware of pakistan also doing it.
moneymakerbs@reddit
I don’t get it. Let’s say they cheat just for the social cred. How do they do complicated landings or work the dang airplane with all of its complicated screen and functions?
Samtulp6@reddit
The amount of pilots from that general area of the world who have fully genuine licenses is much lower than most people think.
At my flight school in South Africa some students from Pakistan said that they would just start the aircraft have the engines run in just high enough RPM so that the tacho would work, and they’d just leave the aircraft to play games and drink tea inside. They were ‘surprised’ that in South Africa (at least my school) there were no shortcuts and the instructors actually told them ‘no’ or told them they weren’t gods gift to aviation.
It is an open secret that a lot of people paid others to take their exams, bribed people to get new ratings (without doing anything required) or just faked their hours by adding 300 hours in a single page.
jon_targareyan@reddit
If you’re gonna cheat your way to a job, why choose one where hundreds of lives depend on you every day? Truly insane
Samtulp6@reddit
Honestly, I’ve met a few of those people, the season is rather morbidly simple: Being able to say you’re a pilot to everyone, to wear aviator glasses and have the social status. However, it’s much easier to fake getting there than to actually put in the effort.
Ustakion@reddit
Being a pilot myself I actually cringe myself when I have to answer a question when someone is ask what do i do.
I usually answer that i carry stuff and people around
andorraliechtenstein@reddit
Someone in my family is a pilot. He always says he's a bus driver in the sky.
Zlatan_Ibrahimovic@reddit
depending on how talkative i feel i sometimes say i work in transportation and logistics and that's a boring enough answer that it dissuades any follow ups.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
How many old people continue driving, when they know they aren't fit anymore, and are a danger to other people around them in traffic?
raised_by_toonami@reddit
Including your own. Flying a plane ironically isn’t a place where I’d wing it.
skapuntz@reddit
There was one from Qatar in my school that was afraid to fly… he was logging the hours even thought he wouldn’t live the apron. Crazy! Then he was expecting to pass the exams due to his very rich father’s money. Thankfully it was a serious school, they just sent him away
Inevitable_Owl4338@reddit
It has improved in India now. A decade or so ago it was well reported about fake pilots over there.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-may-have-4000-fake-pilots-449891
allaboutthosevibes@reddit
Technically speaking real pilots, just unlicensed
Samtulp6@reddit
I sincerely hope that’s the case, but from what I hear from my friends & colleagues they are not so sure the situation has improved as much as is publicly believed.
I hope it has, there have been enough incidents in these countries attributed to pilot competency.!
Bunny_2711@reddit
india doesnt experience many aviation accidents as opposed to what public believes .
Patrahayn@reddit
I doubt very much it has improved as much as it is now more hidden
njsullyalex@reddit
As a brand new student pilot this is wild to me. I’m trying to get my SPL at a small private school at a local field with some old Cessnas and my CFI is still stringent as hell about doing everything by the book. Full walk around and inspection including fuel check, full checklists, full tests of the gauges and flight controls, full proper runup.
The fact that guys training to become line pilots can get away with cutting most of that out in their countries is wild to me.
kocafegdf@reddit
Hi mind sharing what flight school? Sounds promising
njsullyalex@reddit
Orlandi Flight Center at Blairstown Airport in New Jersey
kocafegdf@reddit
Looks pretty nice! I checked out their website but couldn't find information on it - do they offer part 141?
njsullyalex@reddit
Nope, they offer strictly part 61, it says so on their training page.
Samtulp6@reddit
The difference is you (likely) want to be a pilot, whereas they want the social status or are being pressured by their family to be a pilot, again for mostly social status.
The amount of non-motivated students from those countries I’ve seen is absolutely insane.
Many of them are more busy posting instagram selfies pretending they are Maverick than actually doing any studying.
njsullyalex@reddit
Yup. I’m a gigantic avgeek and learning to fly has been a dream since childhood, I savor every moment I’m at the yoke.
astroamy24@reddit
The safety thing is what gets me. Aviation is inherently filled with risk and that is one huge hole in the swiss cheese to take shortcuts in your training.
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
Different industry: Canada has outlawed companies importing Indian highway heavy truck drivers after many many deaths. So now companies import ‘mechanics’ or ‘logistics specialists’ which are still lawfully allowed - the employer and applicant are both in on the scam. The day the immigrant arrives they are happily placed in the driver’s seat. The snide term is Team Brampton.
theagentK1@reddit
I found no evidence that Canada “outlawed” importing Indian highway truck drivers; hiring foreign truck drivers is still allowed through the Temporary Foreign Worker Program (TFWP) with an LMIA and compliance duties for employers.
Could you please cite your sources about 1st sentence?
“Pro-Khalistan extremists sponsor visas of such Punjabi youth … for medium-skilled jobs like plumbers, truck drivers or … roles in gurdwaras … in exchange for doing pro-Khalistan activities.”
Source 1: 'Khalistan' elements in Canada attracting Sikh youth through visa sponsorship, says report
Source 2: Terrorists sponsor Canada visas, woo youths into ranks
They are radical fringe elements within the Sikh Community who also run transnational gangs and have their hands in all kinds of illegal activities; Indian government has warned and provided intelligence to Canadian government quite many time but The Canadian government has failed to act on them time and time again while the Canadian media often fails to call them out for who they are and what they represent.
GoodGoodGoody@reddit
There are two worker-immigration streams:
temporary worker (the LMIA you mentioned) and
permanent resident (typically what’s called the EE program).
If the employer can make a case of economic hardship they can still apply for temporary drivers although theoretically the criteria has toughened and theoretically drivers are duration-limited.
For ^permanent* the relevant govt dept, IRCC, has what it calls “deprioritized” truck driving (basically it’s a no go) so the companies and applicants commit fraud by falsifying roles and histories - that’s the illegal part. I said “outlawed” for brevity and you’re right, it’s policy not law. However the fraud remains.
Complicating things are the provincial pathways.
As for militant people with ties to a few specific regions using trucking companies as a dodge to staff up, that’s absolutely true. Murder and arsons have been tied to them.
kacheow@reddit
Resume fraud is the rule not the exception in that part of the world
pup5581@reddit
Would these pilots tend to be more from the domestic vs International long haul side?
Samtulp6@reddit
More domestic, most long haul carriers do have significant checks in place, though Pakistan International Airlines was famously banned from flying to Europe for YEARS because a lot of their pilots had fake or questionable licenses.
That ban got lifted only last month.
PotatoFeeder@reddit
50% outright fake, other 50% highly questionable
Functionally 100% fake.
This is why many many airlines are to be avoided
Ecstatic_vagabond@reddit
What's the use of not doing your flight hours, I mean it's the most fun part.
Existing-Help-3187@reddit
Amount of armchair pilots in reddit who cant even read the article is mind boggling. If you dont understand something atleast ask.
One pilot had his ELP lapsed. There are 3 levels to ELP, level 4, 5 and 6. You need minimum level 4 to get license issued.
4 has 3 years validity, 5 has 7 years and 6 is unlimited. Air India recently moved from ecrew to CAE rostering system. The system probably didnt catch his ELP expiry to notify rostering to plan is ELP renewal.
The other guy had a admin issue with his sim check. Once you fail a sim, you can do it again and clear it. But in India, once you fail once, you have to do a corrective session whether you passed it the next time or not. Failing is not a big issue since it depends on the severety of the failure.
Fucking reddit armchair pilots.
albonycal@reddit
Did anyone in the replies even try to read the actual article?
> co-pilot and a senior captain have been taken off flying duty after the airline found they operated a flight each last month with a lapsed English Language Proficiency (ELP) licence in one case.
"English Proficiency License"
> other, a co-pilot did so without undergoing mandatory corrective training
This was a rostering problem by the airline, the pilots.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
While both of these things are likely administrative error, it is a duty of every pilot as well to ensure they are in the possession of a valid licence, ratings, etc. before they operate a flight.
If my type rating or medical isn't valid, and I operate the flight, saying "well, my company should have told me" isn't going to go well as an excuse.
albonycal@reddit
I agree with you, but there's no evidence to say they intentionally did it. Slightly negligent, sure. But the replies to this are clearly drawn from racism, you can't deny that. These things do happen occasionally but aren't exaggerated like this one.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Oh yeah, it's a non event overall, especially the English proficiency thing.
MarkGleason@reddit
But did they know where the fuel pump cut-off switches were?
SWMovr60Repub@reddit
Saw a YouTube video where a pilot was saying that the FADEC thought the plane was on the ground and couldn’t be overridden.
Just throwing that out there.
Samtulp6@reddit
You cannot just throw a random sentence like that (that doesn’t make sense to begin with?) without providing any additional context.
What video? What could not be overridden? The fuel cutoff switches? If they are always forced ‘off’ on the ground then how do people start the engines to begin with? Who produced this video?
SWMovr60Repub@reddit
I think I might be having an AI generated attack on my YouTube feed. That speculation about the FADEC, A supposed CNN vid about Malaysian 370 being found, and another about an F1 vid that I sat through that was preposterous. I'm getting click-bait bombed by AI.
MarkGleason@reddit
If that’s your standard, I’m left wondering how you feed yourself with a fork without causing grievous injury.
MrHellno@reddit
They make A LOT of food. Some of it makes its way into their mouth, but they get quite a few puncture wounds in the process.
CommunicationNo3626@reddit
No pilot who is employed by an airline is stupid enough to post speculative rubbish on YouTube
hellolaurent@reddit
Ever heard of Captain Steeeve?
Anti_Kautsky@reddit
What's the tea on captain steeeeeeve?
CommunicationNo3626@reddit
True, although at least he isn’t scaremongering people into believing that there is something seriously wrong with the B787
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
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Brief-Visit-8857@reddit
When did it become normalized to make fun of people’s deaths?
Skycbs@reddit
On Reddit? Quite some time ago
AbeFromanEast@reddit
Too soon
NoDoze-@reddit
Sheeesh Incredible. Reminded me, what ever happened to the last air India crash investigation? The dreamliner that crashed on takeoff. Still no results or conclusion?
InclusivePhitness@reddit
How can he fly?????
meshreplacer@reddit
How do you fail an IR-PPC test if you have been flying that experience just adds up. So how is this possible?
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Do you think experienced pilots in other countries never fail a sim check, because they haven't studied or are just having a bad day?
rohmish@reddit
don't we love the "this is aviation club don't make it political" sub mods being quiet and permitting open racism on here?
32zer0@reddit
Okay if you read in detail, it’s more of the ratings on their licence lapsed not the licence itself.
1 guy suspended as his English Language Proficiency which is valid for 5years lapsed and airline, which facilitates renewals did not renew on time and pulled him out to cover a stuck flight.
The other guy got suspended because he flunked his Instrument Rating renewal test valid for 1 year 1st time and was planned for 2nd time which he passed. But a corrective session required to be planned before 2nd attempt was not planned by the airline due to lack of clarity on published rules.
Yes regulator of India is on overdrive for compliance now which is a good thing. Airline somehow got away blaming lapses on pilots.
dancccasf@reddit
How dare you be logical and actually read the article and not be straight up racist? You know we don’t do that in this sub
Snoo_78472@reddit
Hey, don’t be logical, people love being racists.
chemaster0016@reddit
Pakistan International Airlines: "Finally, a worthy opponent! Our battle will be legendary!"
aussiechap1@reddit
Nah. PIA was a massive scandal and systemic, whereas this is only isolated cases. People in the west sometimes failed these things, we just stop them flying sooner. Hopefully the state will call an investigation into how this happened and better regulate the industry (no one want more accidents).
crispicity@reddit
Ya, he’s a pilot. Graaape
r1Rqc1vPeF@reddit
In the early days of blockchain hype, this use case - validation of training credentials via immutable blockchain was seriously investigated. By at least one aircraft manufacturer.
spinonesarethebest@reddit
Maybe they could find work as truck drivers in the US.
xiaomi558869@reddit
This is not casual. This is systemic AI. Too many issues to ignore or say they are victims of bad luck.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
To be fair, one of those was an expired ELP (English Language Proficiency) for one month, which is hardly a big deal. Some countries don't even require pilots to regularly demonstrate (in a formal way) language proficiency, while India - as most countries - does.
The other occurence is obviously a much serious one.
Being_Stoopit_Is_Fun@reddit
But if they didn't have the mandatory license then weren't they already grounded. "I double-dog dare you to fly again." *Pilot flies again* "I triple-dog dare you."
Kreeos@reddit
You assume every airline in the world actually cares. There's a lot of corruption in certain parts of the world and if you grease the right palms then not having the proper licenses isn't a hinderance.
driftingphotog@reddit
Maybe one of them was the guy who posted a picture here of his HUD on final to SIN.
Accountantinkc@reddit
Stupid nitpicky details.
LivermoreP1@reddit
Shocked I tell you!
Python_07@reddit
It’s Blasphemy!!!!!
J-96788-EU@reddit
Minor detail.