When I was a fed, we would decline food at university meet ups because it may be worth more than the gifted maximum. $20 per occurrence, $50 maximum from the same source per year. I should have accepted a bribe I suppose to help facilitate commercial activities now that I look back on it.
I can't understand how that happens in the first and most important country in the world. I'm european and I live in Europe and I don't want to dunk on you on this. But I'm appalled by how Air safety can be jeopardized in this way.
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Well, yeah. Regular strikes are part of a healthy Economy in a democratic country, IMHO. However, what we are discussing here is not a strike, but a forced shutdown.
I am also perplexed by the massive spectrum of federal employees who immediately stop being paid when a budget bill isn't passed.
The only time something equivalent ever happened in Australia, the government was sacked and a new election was held (after passing the budget bill).
> But I'm appalled by how Air safety can be jeopardized in this way.
Oh, you're a few decades too late for that: https://www.npr.org/2021/08/05/1025018833/looking-back-on-when-president-reagan-fired-air-traffic-controllers
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Airport Employee here:
We bought our controllers Chick-fil-A yesterday, and if this continues we will likely have to budget for them.
Better than losing a close friendship those before me have created over the last quarter century.
Crazy. I was a bit confused by this at first but as explained in the article, many controllers are simply not showing up for work and choosing to do work like DoorDash and Uber instead. A few meals is a drop in the bucket but it makes sense that for those that do show up you want them to be well fed and concentrating.
Many people at the office where I work are talking about cancelling thanksgiving trips because everyone is nervous about massive delays or much worse. It’s going to be an interesting holiday season
Not only do the controllers have to deal with the stress of work and missing paychecks, they now have to also suffer through airline's economy class catering
Just what I want in air traffic controllers. Put them in stressful work and life situations with no end in sight. Then send a pizza now and then. They are definitely super focused in there…
Funny how they make it sound like some sort of charitable thing, when the real story is “yeah *please please* keep working because our entire business falls apart without you”.
Christ it was a joke. The Secretary of Transportation claimed on TV that we make 180k-400k. The max salary for any government employee is 195k and the vast majority of controllers make much less than that, especially while in training.
Also, even if we did, how long are you willing to work without being paid? It's not completely about the money, it's also about respect and dignity.
> Also, even if we did, how long are you willing to work without being paid
Private sector, and the day my paycheck is late because accounting fucked up is the day we all hang out at the coffee maker to really get it clean and the brew settings dialed in. Happens about once a year and lasts all of a day or two but that shit pisses me off to no end.
Honestly, if private sector can't make payroll, I assume it's because they're insolvent and anything they say is covering for that.
Miss one paycheck and I'm looking for a job that day
This is not the attitude shared by the people sending the food. Sure some of the CEOs might think that way but most of the food I've seen has come from the unions specifically.
Also, a free sandwich or a slice of pizza is never going to keep controllers coming to work.
Companies can't give federal employees gifts in the US. It's an anti-corruption thing as any gift could be seen as a bribe.
Most first world countries have similar anti-corruption laws for government staff.
Let's be real. It's about money. All these airlines are publicly traded companies and they all have shareholders to think about. This isn't some altruistic thing they're doing they need to keep people buying plane tickets and flying.
They just don't want to be limited to uncontrolled airspace and VFR, (costs fuel or something, apparently).
I mean you CAN fly across the country like that, and with the gov shut down the FAA shouldn't be handing out phone numbers to call...
Canada has also sent food down too! They’ve done it in the past and they’ve done it most recently.
An entire country’s aviation system and safety is at risk. I think that’s the underlying thought behind these gestures. But we should really be thinking about the orphan crushing machine.
Not just the airline’s business, pretty much the entire global economy crashes without ATC. In ways that make COVID shutdown and the great depression look rather tame.
Genuine question, what does count these days? I know the original 1st/2nd/3rd world definition was based on Cold War alignment rather than any particular economic/development factor, and nowadays the PC term is developed/developing countries (or LEDC).
But in a modern context, what would you consider a third world country?
can someone explain why they aren’t getting paid? Is it because of ten US govt shutdown, is this a govt job?
That’s insane to me, if I didn’t get paid I wouldn’t have enough money to get to work at all.
This is it. It’s a government job. And with the government being shutdown/without appropriations they don’t get a paycheck. But they are considered essential/accepted employees so they are required to continue to show up to work.
They will assumingely get back pay. I borderline feel bad for people in my country, but, luckily, most of us have gone unaffected, at this moment. We wouldn’t be in this mess if we didn’t rely so heavily on the government. Maybe it’s time for people to start realizing they need to quit being selfish and start helping their neighbors. Don’t get me wrong, there is a lot of “free” community help, but it’s only going to go so far if more aren’t willing to help during this.
The white zone is for loading and unloading only.
If you have to load, or if you have to unload, you go to the white zone.
You'll love it.
It's a way of life.
United had a bad case of food poisoning at DEN last thanksgiving or Christmas from the company dinner. Can’t remember which one but lots of callouts the next two days lol.
In other countries they can, see ATC strikes in France that happen almost on regular basis :). In US they cannot. They are considered "essential workers" and still required to carry out their duties, like the army or police.
So… can the Republicans get their act together, negotiate some healthcare cost subsidies, and get the government back open? It would be a win-win for… the constituents, us, who voted for them to work for us.
I work for an airline and we tried to send pizza to a tower to feed the controllers. Our legal department caught wind of it and shut it down. Apparently there are laws/rules against airlines or airline employees paying for goods/food/services to federal employees.
Laws about unjust enrichment of government officials are not currently being enforced, though. I don't think a pizza or two would even register.
And mods, don't ban me. I'm not making a value judgement, I'm stating a fact and letting the reader draw their own conclusions.
Totally agree with your opinion and sentiment. Our legal department thinks otherwise. I work for a major airline in a union. I guess they decided the juice wasn't worth the squeeze.
The fact they are willing to try feed ATC now, is a sign of coperate desperation and like corporate desperation it's mostly lip service. I've been working in the airlines for quite awhile and remember they didn't do this last shut down. They are trying to get a head with good PR but their main goal is to not get grounded. No ATC? Now they have to give out points and other amenities if they aren't Frontier. No airline wants to spend a cent over profit. If they give or points/flying miles, they calculated that in the budget but a full stop that may go over budget? Yeah let's feed the guys that allow us to not take a loss. In the 2019 ATC call outs in LGA were definitely a push to reopen because shareholders started grumbling.
I used to be at a carrier that always advertised to customers free snacks and employees profit sharing.during COVID those were the first things to go despite the stock doing well due to bailouts which kept me employed but the math just didn't work. Profit by definition is making a surplus to operational requirements. So everyone has been on a skeleton crew and almost every airline I see rather go with a cheaper BP to fill laid off departments because they are no longer obligated for benefits. Theres quite a few legacy airlines that run third party LLCs for that reason. Industry got wrecked, that have that cream and the top isn't sharing.
Laws on the level you're talking about are being enforced because the government officials you would be enriching, atc, isn't on a level that can skirt the laws.
Some people at SWA tried to send food, but legal got mad. Unions that might represent certain employees at SWA might have been able to make things work while staying legal though.
Get your union involved and they will normally have means of getting things to your local ATC in a legal manner. My office tried the same a few weeks back and legal also freaked out, but our union was able to help out.
I also work a job that shouldn't be paycheck-to-paycheck. But some of my coworkers for some reason are always complaining about how they're broke.
TBF, I'm a single person with no kids, and when you start factoring in the cost of dependents, schooling, vehicle and home ownership to support a larger family, health insurance, etc. I can see how a 6-figure job can quickly get eaten up by expenses, especially in this economy.
People also tend to live up to the level of whatever their means are. If you're pulling 6 figures and have no reason to think that supply of money will end, you're going to have a nice house, car, etc. to live comfortably at the salary you expect to get. Then suddenly your paychecks stop coming and you still have to pay your bills.
I’m happy this is happening, in the “humans helping humans” category, but the fact we’ve even gotten here shows who inept our elected officials are. Using TSO and ATC as bargaining chips along side welfare benefits is cruel and evil. All this does is make things more dangerous for everyone….. secretary Duffy has failed every American.
I see a lot on here talking about how ATC can't strike so they are still working. Surely not working due to non payment isn't a strike. If an individual doesn't get paid they are not withdrawing their labour, it's the otherway around it's the employer who has broken the employment contract. Even for critical workers who can't strike surely they can't be compelled to work for no wages.
Controllers should just call in. "I did not get paid, I cannot come to work because I do not have money to put gas in my car, and I cannot take my child to daycare, because I did not get paid" You want me to work, fuck you pay me.
I meant in general, people, especially wealthy people are of the opinion that we can cut taxes and services and still have a great first world country.
I'm at the point where this should be the first domino to fall in a general strike. No controllers, no flights, cripple air logistics. Let there be catastrophic economic consequences to the government shutdown, holding the government's feet to the fire. Stick the whole foot in if necessary.
Non-American here, I was kind of wondering this, like is there a reason ATC controllers aren't going on strike over this? Grounding all/most flights from major air hubs would literally cripple the country, the shutdown would be over in hours...
Most countries don't allow critical government employees to strike, allowing government employees to strike would make the democratic process pointless since a small minority could just blackmail the government into doing what they want.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_strike?wprov=sfla1
Basically, there was a strike in '81 that got nearly all the striking ATCs fired. That was a major blow to labor unions in this country.
These days, most unions in the US use striking as an absolute last resort. The union I'm in doesn't let locals strike without express permission from the international office; doing so without it gets your ticket pulled. I imagine others are like that as well. Some unions that take contracts from the government are legally forbidden from striking like rail workers, and I believe ATCs as well.
Went into IAD recently and I can tell something's off. The tower was pretty stretched out talking nonstop like a director/approach frequency and was ignoring us between calls.
Nice but ATC make REAL good money, I don't think many of them are hurting for food after missing one paycheck unless they are complete degenerates with their money
Still absolutely insane they aren't getting paid though
It’s good business I will say. Smart move. None of the airlines want a lawsuit because there weren’t enough atc working, nor do they want a full stop of services over this mess.
Can’t believe how bad the US has become in governments not working over a corrupt president.
ELI5 Non-political answer; There's no budget. America could not pass a bill to fund the country. So government employees and programs do not have funding right now.
If only there were some way for large corporations to feed the people that work for the government and keep things running, just automatically! Like maybe some kind of yearly or even monthly subscription!
These things are so hard! I guess we'll never know!
That's also a point, that makes me wonder. Here in Europe ATC controllers are extremely well paid professionals, far above the average. Therefore, I would expect that even if one or two salaries would be missed, people should still have enough savings to get along without the need for food donations. That's quite concerning to me, that if even ATC controllers are needing (food) support, how are then other, probably not so well paid federal employees getting along.
It’s not just food. But paying for rent/mortgage, child care, health insurance, car payment, student loans, etc. When things get tight and you have to pick what expenses to cut, food tends to be the hardest… if it means hungry and having a roof over your head or homeless with some food in a backpack?
I don’t think a lot of people have tons of savings.
They aren’t living paycheck to paycheck. They are highly compensated with good benefits. Just cut the nonsense. If they are paycheck to paycheck it’s their choice to be like that
they might as well pay them too. With the latest anti-consumer moves made by this admin, Airlines will be even less liable for compensation, meals and hotel accommodations due to delays, and that's a ton of money airlines will be saving.
Sure, but the airlines \*collect\* these fees on behalf of the FAA, including other fees like facility charges and taxes. So it's paid by the passengers, not the airlines, and doesn't mean airlines are funding the FAA. And that also does not mean the FAA does not also get a large chunk of funding from the federal gov't. That's the difference here.
Pilot here, called my local ATCT, Approach and Center to schedule a time to send them all food. Sent a catering platter from the local deli. A lot of my friends are pilots and have done the same. Controllers take care of us everyday now its our turn step up for them when they need it.
I know the pilots unions like ALPA, APA, IPA, SWAPA have all done been donating or doing whatever they can to help the controllers. Really appreciate all the controllers out there hopefully this doesn't drag on to long you guys have enough problems with stress and staffing without the gov shutdown.
You don't usually expect to see this on the tarmac.
https://preview.redd.it/g650nlhtycyf1.jpeg?width=612&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ec5f850ddabdac3909c32fa8c0bf2d2e6061fb8d
My tin foil hat theory is they're going to delay things so long and so many people are going to quit or stop working that they're going to use it as an excuse to privatize ATC under the guise of keeping America moving.
Not really airlines. Pilots, and pilot unions, are the ones I’ve seen feed ATC. Airlines are run by CEOs. CEOs don’t give a flying f*ck about anything but their bonuses, so I doubt “airlines” is an accurate title for this.
Airlines cant fly if ATC doesnt operate.
So yea, I'd say that the CEOs give some degree of a fuck here, as ATC peeps deciding that working in Walmart is the better option over going hungry 100% impacts a CEOs bonus.
Airlines and airline employees can’t legally send food or gift cards, but their unions can. Some workgroups at SWA recently tried to send something to some of the local facilities, but legal said they couldn’t. TWU, SWAPA, and even AMFA were able to though.
Okay. Any news articles that say “ Scott Kirby, or any airline CEO, has airline send food to ATC facilities”? Haven’t seen anything that says that.
I have seen headlines and social media that ALPA, and APA, are the ones sending food to ATC.
That’s what I was trying to say.
See, all you are doing there is putting extremely specific criteria on the proof you are demanding just so you can reject anything which doesn't match your exact "argument".
CEOs act through their companies - they dont have to personally donate anything, they can direct the company to do so. Just like the heads of ALPA, APA etc aren't doing things themselves - they are using members funds to do things that bring the unions good PR.
Okey dokey. I’m saying the headline was misleading, and may imply that CEOs care about a group of workers, for the sake of caring. They do not. But I’ve got other things to do today sooooo….. have a good one.
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You overestimate how important US airplane traffic is for global shipping.
Hint: it's drop in a bucket.
The only people really suffering would be politicians and rich millionaires.
ATC controllers went on strike in the 80's and the president fired almost all of them.
Federal workers aren't actually allowed to strike, even if they're in a union, and especially if they're considered critical. Anyone who is required to work right now rather than being sent home on furlough is going to get very harsh treatment if they go on strike - legally, participating in a strike as a federal employee is a felony offense.
They can, however, quit and if this goes on too long they'll have to just to make ends meet, whether they want to or not.
Here is a thought, pay the ATC based on the difficulty of each tower, on a bid system, the harder the work is, the more they get paid.. It would be interesting to see if the major hubs got better or worse…
Fundamentally what probably needs to happen is for ATC to be spun off into a GSE much like the post office, fully self-funding through user fees (in a way it’s already funded that way but congress funnels those through the general fund, making it a political pawn). Same could probably be said for TSA (the handful of airports with contract security generally work quite well).
I’m actually surprised the airlines aren’t picking up the tab for the ATC paychecks. Like that’s something that directly effects their entire business model. If the airspace is closed they’re screwed. I know it’s possibly an issue with legality, but write a law that says certain industries can pay government workers if they choose and the government will reimburse them once they reopen
Global airport revenues: ~$150 billion
Global airport infrastructure spending: ~$50 billion
Global air traffic control costs: ~$10 billion
So, call it $210 billion and round up to a cool quarter trillion for miscellaneous costs. The world spends about $970 billion on air travel, so adding $250 billion to it would increase the costs by about a quarter.
Air travel is very cheap, in a historical context, but bumping it up by about 25% would absolutely price a lot of people out of it.
Ending government subsidy would also entail things like taxing SFO like private property, levying income taxes on airports, etc. private industry would also need to buy airport property off the tax districts/cities/counties etc that currently own them at fair market value.
Quite. Hence the “miscellaneous.” Government operations and private operations tend to have different sorts of fixed and variable costs, and taxes can play a big part of that.
As a passenger, is there a tip jar or hotline where we can help our ATCs?
On second thought, fuck that; our government is supposed to be taking care of them and if we start tipping our ATC the government would just let us and keep enriching the megarich and ATCs being paid in tips to prevent starving would become the norm. The ATC should just strike. I'll gladly take the train for a while to...oh shit, they defunded the trains a generation ago and there aren't any.
ATC went on strike.....once. They were fired, 11,000 workers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968)
Federal workers are prohibited from striking.....fired and then prohibited from future employment.
https://www.govexec.com/management/2019/01/why-feds-dont-strike/154438/
mods when asked why this is happening: "Idk maybe the airlines just thought they were hungry for whatever reason haha. government? funding? never heard of it. made up terms."
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TSA saw great support during the last diaper don shutdown. This time the citizens are in much worse shape. Pretty soon they will not be able to afford gas to get to work so lines will get long
My flying club sent chic fil a breakfast today to the tower. We will probably do it again next week. We love BNA tower. Lot of great folks working there (for free!).
Why does the article word it kinda like the airlines paying for food for workers seems like it might be bending the rules in doing so? Is it seen as bribery or something...?
(I am but a casual redditor that follows this sub, sorry of this is a well known thing)
The Dems choose to starve kids instead of passing a spending bill.
Yeah, it's time to nuke the filibuster so we can get a reasonable spending bill passed without liberal cockblocking.
Then it REALLY will be a Republican controlled Congress. 🤞🏻
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I suspect that certain people see this kind of information, thinks it makes “their side” look bad, and feel upset seeing other folks talking about it. They comment things like this maybe as a form to keep cognitive dissonance at bay.
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