If colgan 3407 never happened
Posted by LegalRecord3431@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 138 comments
Do you think the requirement for FO to have ATP would have eventually came to be? Would the market be more or less the same now? would demand have driven up the average time of new hires up to where it is now? Or would we still have 500 hour FO’s at regionals?
Computerized-Cash@reddit
We would mirror Europe’s current system/flow pretty closely in my opinion.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Putting 150h pilots into the right seat of an A320 or a B737? Don't think that would ever happen in USA, even without Colgan. Too many dues to be paid before someone can fly such a complicated machine.
Beyond-Salmon@reddit
bro has never heard of 25 year old military pilots getting into c-17 or or f16 with 150 hours ☠️
Headoutdaplane@reddit
The entry and training into military is completely different than civilian. Civilian. If you pay enough you will get your tickets. The military will kick you out early on for pretty much anything. It is not in apples to apples comparison
NoteChoice7719@reddit
You've just described civilian training in most of the world with direct trainee to airline pilot pathways. Aptitude tests, skills tests, interviews before you even get to fly a Cessna. Integrated Ab Initio course where your progress is monitored from 0 hrs to graduation. Fail to achieve standards and you'll be let go.
It works everywhere else in the world but apparently is impossible in America.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
I like our system more - nowhere else has GA like we do. hell, WE might not have GA like we do if MOSAIC doesn't shake up the market like I hope and we continue on the steady decline we're on)
NoteChoice7719@reddit
You like you’re system more because that’s what you’re used to.
Training for an EU airline job at 200hrs isn’t like the training you get in the US btw, it’s far more thorough with higher standards. I wouldn’t trust the product of a U.S. flight school to sit in the flight deck of a jet at 200hrs.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
no, I like our system more because we actually have general aviation that’s (relatively) affordable and widespread. I can aspire to plane ownership while being barely middle class. other places it’s just too expensive and complex for the american way of “figure it out lol” to work.
this is kind of what part 141 training is in the US (“better” training for lower hour requirements), it’s just not nearly as powerful.
pretty uninformed about this subject tho I just like the sound of my own virtual voice :\^)
NoteChoice7719@reddit
I’m not really interested in aircraft ownership or recreational flying. I’m solely looking at the training of professional airline pilots and the U.S. does not have the best system. Full stop.
Headoutdaplane@reddit
The IATA from 2024 would argue that point. Per million hours flown the u.s had .55 accident rate versus 1.4 for European carriers.
NoteChoice7719@reddit
Not sure where you get those numbers, this shows Europe having a lower accident rate to North America (1.02 vs 1.20)
https://www.iata.org/contentassets/4d18cb077c5e419b8a888d387a50c638/iata-safety-report-2024-fy_final.pdf
Plus the IATA European region includes Russia/Ukraine which conflict aside I wouldn’t class under the EU/Western European pilot training model I was talking about
Headoutdaplane@reddit
You are correct, I should have specified in the US. In the US if you have the money you can get your tickets eventually. And as we have seen in Colgan among others the airline selection process don't weed out all the bad pilots. Kind of like Air France where three different pilots that went through the system you described could not figure out they were in a stall.....for seven minutes. No system is perfect.
NoteChoice7719@reddit
U.S. heavy drivers with 10,000hrs of experience and plenty ex mil have made some pretty bad judgements calls in the last few years (like the UA 777 dudes off Maui) that have come VERY close to a major accident.
Headoutdaplane@reddit
Yup, nobody is immune
Dinosaur_Wrangler@reddit
Rather see them tackle funding the government or a dozen other things before any energy gets spent on this.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
I thought we were talking about civilian aviation...
jet-setting@reddit
A lot of those are the MPL pilots which unions here have strongly opposed since forever IIRC.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
MPL isn't as common as people think...
ainsley-@reddit
Don’t some airlines like easyjet only accept pilots with no airline experience if they’re MPL?
clackerbag@reddit
Not anymore.
NoteChoice7719@reddit
Most pilots joining Easyjet (and Ryanair, Wizz, BA, AF, LH, IB, SAS, Finnair, KLM et al) have 250hrs tops when they start their A320/737 training.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
With MPL, you only get about 100h total time in a real airplane - it all depends on the exact course.
clackerbag@reddit
That doesn’t make them MPL students. Even amongst integrated students MPL are in the minority.
Sk1900d@reddit
Happens in Europe in Asia, can happen in the U.S. if push comes to shove
pilotchriss@reddit
And pay wages being shit also like Europe’s.
RodionsKurucs@reddit
We don't make as much as Americans here, that's true, but as a year 2 narrowbody FO, I make 3x the average salary of the country, which still feels really nice. And I went from finish CPL to flying in line in a span of few months.
srbmfodder@reddit
I started way back when at a 141 school pre-9/11. The school was definitely advertising that they helped pilots get jobs. Some people did get hired (post 9/11) at small 121/135 operators with a few hundred hours. Jobs were few and far between. I had been given advice in high school to go to Embry Riddle in the late 90s if I wanted to be a 121 pilot. No, I didn't end up going there.
paul-flexair@reddit
Flight school owner/operator here (goflexair.com) also retired naval aviator. I've been in the industry a long time but never went Part 121 (nobody was hiring post 9/11 and post GFC). I was working at an OEM the day Colgan happened and remember it well. Seeing the fallout from that got me interested in running a flight school. Early in the founding days of the flight school I networked a lot and talked to a ton of folks from union reps to chief pilots to economists trying to figure out wtf is up with this industry. I love it but it's definitely got its warts. In a sci-fi alternate universe without Colgan (without the "1500" rule) and with Covid:
- Regional FOs would be paid more, but not as much as today
- CFIs pay would be trending up, potentially way up
- Flight training would be more expensive - maybe a lot more expensive
- There would be a lot fewer affordable / reputable "mom and pop" flight school operations than today
Not very rigorously researched but my hot take.
usmcmech@reddit
It would be 10X worse. New hire FO wages would still be below poverty line.
MyPilotInterview@reddit
And it was 1000 TT and 100 ME.
redditburner_5000@reddit
It was down to 500/50 in the early-mid 2000s. Wasn't normal, but it happened. 800/50 was more common
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
I had a walk in offer at Continental at 500ttl and 50multi. And the salary was a whopping $18,000/year
I was making that every two weeks so I said no
TravisJungroth@reddit
You were making $468,000/year and applying to regional airlines?
redditburner_5000@reddit
High-earners get visions of being airline pilots, try it, and then go back to making $18k a week.
TravisJungroth@reddit
I’d think if you’re switching from a high earning job, you’d be less concerned about first year pay and just take whatever job you want. You’re living off savings anyway. That’s what I’ve done, and known some other people to do.
Like, was he holding out for $25k/year?
The other explanation was he was working a boom and bust sales job. Sometimes people take their best week / 2 weeks / month ever and say they make X per Y. But I don’t know, so I asked.
redditburner_5000@reddit
Someone making $400k is living a $400k life. They're on a treadmill just like everyone else, it's just a fancier treadmill. They still need to pay a mortgage and they still want to drive their late model car. They have a standard of living they want to maintain, more or less. There's still a monthly nut they need to crack.
Then there's the culture shift. Most high earners are in a dynamic, stimulating career. Transitioning to flying is a shock. Creativity and outside-the-box thinking are absolutely not valued behavior when repetition and perfect conformance to procedure are the goal. The very attributes that made them great at their careers are suddenly problems.
So, getting paid nothing and suppressing fundamental personality traits + learned behavior rewarded with years of positive reinforcement is hard.
Ram_Rod8@reddit
Spoken like a fellow pilot, howdy there 😎
redditburner_5000@reddit
Not a real pilot though. Merely a GA pilot these days.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
No, that's not always the case. I was well invested, we were living well below our means, putting away money so that our future was never in question.
You are trying to make this into something you can relate to and fit into a box you understand. And that is often not the case for the person actually involved
redditburner_5000@reddit
It's my observation of a few cases of this.
Your experience may vary.
TravisJungroth@reddit
I’m failing to get something across here.
There are people who make $400k and depend on that income. These people don’t switch to being airline pilots. They know they’re not going to make enough for a long time, so they wouldn’t even interview.
There are people who live below their means with high salaries and use this to transition to careers that are low paying or start low paying. I’ve done this myself (from software engineering, $500k+/yr), personally know people who’ve done it and have read stories of people who’ve done it.
When you take that strategy, you focus much less on short term pay and much more on what’s good for your career long term or what you enjoy. You have the privilege of not sweating first year pay as hard as the average person, and use that to your advantage.
Just the way he talked about the relative pay difference doesn’t match the mindset these people usually have. Like, even the regionals with better first year pay were going to pay as much as he makes in three weeks. How’d he end up in the interview?
So it’s like “this seems weird” and I asked to confirm if the facts were straight.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
A friend of mine was in the chief pilot's office and had the ability to walk in pilots. He knew that I always entertained the idea of a "Retirement Job", Flying jets. He made the offer. At the time, I was very happy where I was and declined the offer. Had I not been doing what I was doing at the time, which was very satisfying creatively, intellectually, and financially, I would have leapt at the offer.
It wasn't until over a decade later that I made the change due to a career-ending injury that I made the change to flying long-haul private jets for a living.
TravisJungroth@reddit
Ok, that makes total sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
It's always interesting to see people try to make a comment fit into their idea of what happened. So I was happy to explain it.
BubbaBoondocks@reddit
Yeah he’s lying lol
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
Not at all.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
Nope, that's not what I was doing. Not even close to a sales job.
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
I wasn’t applying to airlines. And I was making a bit more than that at the time.
TravisJungroth@reddit
So what do you mean you “had a walk in offer”?
redditburner_5000@reddit
Yep. That was the deal.
120SR@reddit
It’s fun how guys who got hired then scoff at guys today who can’t for the life of them get out of a 172 even at 2000hrs plus.
As if, they were Jesus, born flying a jet and other pilots can’t ever make the transition
Substantial-End-7698@reddit
It’s not exactly apples to apples but if you look at Canada you’ll have an idea what it would look like. Canadian wages used to be on par with, if not better than US wages in the early 2000s. It’s tough to say if the ATP rule is the cause, but today’s new hire wages are dreadful in comparison to the states. I wouldn’t say it’s below the poverty line in most cases, but it’s close.
charlie_30@reddit
It's not tough to say, ATP is the reason we've seen wage growth.
Malcolm2theRescue@reddit
Both of the pilots on 3407 met the time requirements of the new legislation. Nothing would be different. Pay would be higher but high pay never stopped pilots from making stupid mistakes.
LegalRecord3431@reddit (OP)
No one said their time was an issue guy. Do you even legislate?
Malcolm2theRescue@reddit
They certainly did make time an issue as well as rest periods. Neither was responsible for the accident.
LegalRecord3431@reddit (OP)
Lol so you’re saying “nothing would be different” if it didn’t happen? Lol!
Malcolm2theRescue@reddit
Poorly worded I guess but my point was in reference to safety. Did the legislation change things? Yes, of course. In particular, it made it much more difficult to get a job with the regionals. A pilot with 1,200 hours of flying Cessnas around the pattern is not necessarily safer than one with 500 hours. One could have 5,000 hours of Cessna time and still be totally lost in a complex airliner. It’s all about the training he receives at the new airline. I would much prefer a requirement for fewer hours but more complex time as one would receive completing a university course that includes simulator time in a CRJ/ERJ and the use of FMS and other advanced nav systems.
PilotWannabeinOK@reddit
Colgan crash caused me to quit flight training. I had my CSEL, but I knew I didn’t want to slog around being a CFI to get my 1500 hours. Not sure if it’s one of life’s regrets or not, but I wish I would have kept going anyway to see where I could have ended up.
AdministrativeBee946@reddit
As much as I hate to say it (I’m at 600 hours) I do think it’s a good thing that there is a 1500 rule whether or not Colgan happened. Sure it sucks the road to 1500 but once you get there your paid as much (if not more than) doctors and you get a pretty good lifestyle out of it, if you like it. But to answer your question if it wouldn’t have been colgan it would have definitely been someone else, I have no doubt.
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
The average person aint getting paid shit at 1500 hours anymore.
rotardy@reddit
That’s a healthy perspective. My first jet 121 pay was under $20 an hour but it could have been worse, I didn’t have to buy my own hotel room for new hire training and I was paid from day one. That was luxury at the time.
Headoutdaplane@reddit
Just to clarify, It is not a 1500 hour rule. It is an ATP rule, in fact the FAA made getting a restricted ATP available at a thousand hours. 1500 hours for an ATP goes back to the 1950s.
jet-setting@reddit
Also, to enhance the clarified clarification, 1500 is the worldwide ICAO standard for ATP.
It’s just in every other country, only the Captain has to hold one.
AtomicShadow_@reddit
I think its so interesting the effect the accident had on the industry considering that the captain just put the airplane into a stall ultimately. I know he failed multiple check rides and hid them but the captain and fo had much over 1500 hours
Temporary-Fix9578@reddit
People act like 1500 hrs is some magic safety answer. Sure, experience is good, but that crew already met those standards
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
the crew did not meet those standards when hired, though
Temporary-Fix9578@reddit
So? Do you think you learn more accumulating hours in an airline op or doing circuits in a 172?
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
PIC time, even in a 172, is extremely valuable. If you think instruction is "doing circuits in a 172" then you are already a lost cause.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
I wouldn't go that far (though I do think, in my completely uninformed opinion, that a couple hundred dual given is probably a really good thing to have), I just think "the crew had 1,500 at the time of the crash" isn't an airtight dismissal of requiring an ATP in the right seat
setthrustpositive@reddit
The FO also retracted the flaps prematurely.
AtomicShadow_@reddit
Yes, there are definetly alot of factors to consider with the accident as well. I had to study it for a class a while ago it was really interesting
setthrustpositive@reddit
I went through Q400 type school in 2022. We spent a whole class and a whole sim on it.
It was recoverable.
poser765@reddit
That might have had something to do with her transcon commute and being at the end of like a 20 hour day.
Part 117 also came out of colgan.
prex10@reddit
A lot of Europeans need to come to grips that what we are doing over here is not bad. And what they're doing over there isn't bad either. Most Americans aren't saying their system isn't safe. Except our pros are heavily more compensated than theirs. But I will say this;
A well rested and well paid pilot is significantly more safe than a miserable one. And then I can say the ATP rule definitely covers it bases on.
poser765@reddit
Right on!
What I should have mentioned in my initial comment was this;
Everyone always brings up the colgan crash in the context of the atp rule. I have no problem with that rule change, but I think the far bigger impact came from 117. It ain’t perfect, but it’s leaps and bounds ahead of the original 121 hours of service.
Also, as you alluded to, neither can be taken alone. Show of hands… how many of yall spent the night in a crew room with a tapas snack box? None of that is good for fitness for duty.
Odd-Explanation-9614@reddit
And one out both of them was sick at the time
rotardy@reddit
No.
Just for clarity let’s also remember the unions, primarily controlled by legacy pilot groups, with ALPA at the head of the charge were the driving force for the ATP requirements at 121 carriers post Colgan.
Which, in my opinion, had nothing to do with safety and everything to do with creating an artificial barrier to entry for new pilots so they could get better pay at legacy airlines. That old supply and demand thing ya know.
Without Colgan there would have never been enough political support for the change in policy.
Mystery_Member@reddit
I say this is hogwash. It was primarily about safety, and we can argue how effective that was. I work in a place where pilots earn a lot of ATPs along with jet type ratings. I think it's a requirement that makes a lot of sense. While at your stage of career it seems like a major barrier, in the big picture, it isn't. What you learn in ATP/CPT may seem to be trivial or useless, but it's important. The 121s hire the best people they can get given the market. The post-covid jackpot was a blip. In my opinion too many people entering the career now are doing it mostly for the money. I liked it better when most everyone did it because they loved it. Get off my lawn!!
Bravo-Buster@reddit
Primarily for safety?
If it was a riddle me this. How many hours did the Colgan pilots have? Would this rule have prevented it?
If the answer is "No", then it wasn't about safety.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
yes, it would have prevented them from being hired in the first place :\^)
(which would have changed everything thanks to the butterfly effect)
Bravo-Buster@reddit
🤣🤣
rotardy@reddit
I do have my flair up to help with context but I’ll be more blunt about it. I’m currently a captain at a legacy. When Colgan crashed I was already working at my second airline with two 135 turbine jobs prior. The ATP rules have benefited me since they were passed.
I also have experience in training and standards at 121 airlines.
So respectfully, based on my experience prior to and after the atp requirement I don’t think it’s meaningfully improved safety. Definitely put positive pressure on wages though.
I do appreciate the sacrifices of all the new guys/s
Mystery_Member@reddit
Also to be clear, I didn't say it had meaningfully improved safety, I said its intent was to improve safety, though I think it probably has in some small part. These instruments, exercised by government, are blunt. This shit is complicated, and we are working on the squeal of the big here, the low-hanging fruit has been picked. But requiring an ATP for 121 service is an improvement to what we had. I say this as someone who flew 121 in the "bad old days". Did it also increase pay as a side effect? Also yes. Good.
rotardy@reddit
I agree the politicians were told it was for safety and they bought it.
The pilot unions knew exactly what they were doing when they spoon fed it to the congress critters.
As I said it’s been 100% to my benefit. So I’ll take it.
What I won’t do is look at a pilot just starting their career and tell them it’s because they are not experienced enough to be on my flight deck.
Once I talk about what the first fifteen years of my career looked like they typically are glad it’s changed. When they finally do get in the door at the first post ATP job they can afford to eat. Pretty neat.
One interesting side effect I’ve seen with the push to everyone on the deck having the ATP is how some new hires act. When I started my career before the ATP requirement new hires typically didn’t have it and were often well below 1000 hours. In fact when I went to school on the 727 as a new hire FE I had barely 700 hours. I was very aware I didn’t know shit. Like less than nothing. Straight from “more right rudder” to “protect essential” and big u little u on a three pilot crewed jet.
I was like a friggin sponge and if someone was talking I was listing because I was fairly confident they were telling me something I didn’t know.
Post ATP requirement I’ve had brand new pilots, sitting in their first jet, weeks out of IOE get bristly with me for mentoring and have the audacity to tell me “I have the same type rating you do.”
Well from where I’m sitting that 1000-1500 hour brand new typed ATP holder does not know any more than my dumb ass did when I had 700 hours. But now guess what… they have that ATP and an unrestricted type rating.
As you said it’s better than what we had but like most big hammers the results are often unexpected.
I’m in the sunset of my career. Just a little over ten years left before I have to get out of someone’s seat. Hopefully it can all stay on the rails for just a little while longer. Nice to be finally getting that paycheck I was looking for thirty years ago.
Cheers!
Mystery_Member@reddit
It's clear that we're coming to this from pretty much the same spot, your view of money and politics is a bit more cynical than mine is all. Democracy is really messy and inefficient. But Captain, I've got 15 years on you, you're not quite at "sunset" yet, maybe late afternoon! Enjoy it all everyday, take nothing for granted. Pass on some of that experience to the next generation, even if you think they're not sufficiently receptive to it.
When I tell people that I flew airliners on ADF approaches using an RMI, they look at me like I'm from outer space! And rightfully so. There are myriad reasons aviation is safer today, and that's a great thing. The APT rule is just one minor piece of the puzzle. I actually think technological advances and CRM are #1 and 2. I'd like to buy you an adult beverage sometime and compare notes.
rotardy@reddit
Absolutely! Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Cheers Captain.
Accurate-Indication8@reddit
I think the Part 117 duty and rest requirements did far more to improve safety than the implementation of the ATP requirements. From where I'm sitting, the ATP requirements are just another barrier for entry and is one of the reasons we have the better pay and benefits (which I'm all for). The majority of the subject matter covered during the ATP/CTP course was a rehash of stuff I already knew (and any multiengine pilot with half a brain already knew) and was an expensive check in the box as opposed to something that truly improves safety. The ATP aeronautical experience requirements, debatable, not all flight time is created equal and I'd also be remiss if I didn't point out the fact that both the Captain and First Officer in the Colgan Air crash both had way more hours than what is required to hold an ATP.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
Legacy airlines didn't need barriers to entry. Regional pilots did ultimately benefit, but even that was significantly delayed.
There was a lot more than the ATP requirement rolled into the bill
rotardy@reddit
I think legacies very much needed the barrier to entry. Not for the new hires at the legacies. Rather for the new hires at the first rung of 121 legacies. It had great impact on legacy pay scales and scope pressure and in the long game.
Headoutdaplane@reddit
The raise in first officer pay for the first year brought wages up throughout the industry (except for cfis) pilots flying sleds in Western Alaska started getting $10 to $20 an hour more when everybody started bailing for the airlines.
prex10@reddit
Corporations don't just pay livable wages because they don't want to be the grinch.
Nothing would have changed. SkyWest would still be paying $19 an hour. Contracts and training stipulations would be the norm.
Technical-Patient28@reddit
LoCo Capt here! You can be absolutely certain that the reason you guys have such sweet conditions is because of strong unions and the 1500h requirement. We hire fos at 250ttl and put them on the right hand seat of a 737. And it’s fine and safe. But the airline has an infinite amount of young guys accepting low conditions.
Hdjskdjkd82@reddit
To be fair, a pilot going through their first airline is not going through the same training a pilot for their first airline in Europe would. We don’t have base training at all, and while you do operational experience which is equivalent to line training over there, a new hire doesn’t fly anywhere near as much with a training captain you do with a European operator. US training at your first airline can often times be a swim or sink kinda deal for many people…
NoteChoice7719@reddit
I doubt there's that many Euros planning to come to the US, they seem fairly happy there if these comments are anything to go by:
https://old.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/1df76ns/european_pilots_salary_megathread/
Most EU pilots if wanting to leave Europe would probably head to the ME. Once you take into account higher cost of living, higher healthcare costs, other services funded by taxes Euros get then any tax or salary advantage to US pilots is probably erased. So it then comes down really to where you would prefer to live. I guess if your dream is to drive a RAM truck to a ranch in Idaho to go hunting deer you are not going to get that at a Euro airline.
Hdjskdjkd82@reddit
Things in Europe aren’t that bad. It’s a different game over there than the US. Pay isn’t US level even when adjusting for COL, but it’s still a career that will put you financially ahead of average.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Ryan Air pilots pay for their hotels?
MikeInPajamas@reddit
It's Ryan Air... The pilots are lucky they don't have to pay for their own Jet-A.
Match-Impressive@reddit
Not on the overnights, but my buddy had to pay for his own hotel when going for a recurrent in a different city.
LegalRecord3431@reddit (OP)
Pay for your own type was a thing? Holy smokes
BeenThereDoneThat65@reddit
Yes it was
Tony_Three_Pies@reddit
Hell, there were people paying to fly in the right seat of turboprops...
RaidenMonster@reddit
Called out a buddy of mine “all the way back” in 2021 after Covid popped off for advertising $75/hr in a KA200 you could log as they worked revenue flights.
And that’s paying 75/he to talk on the radio, sling fear, lick windows.
No-Series-3997@reddit
Ugh. Pay to fly scams never truly disappear, they just strategically hide and wait for the next wave of suckers
PM_ME_YOUR_FOQA@reddit
Dude people used to pay cape air to fly right seat on a single pilot plane. Shit was crazy.
LegalRecord3431@reddit (OP)
Pax: “why does one of the pilots have his sunglasses cut out on the bottom?”
Headoutdaplane@reddit
This is true.
Alone_Elderberry_101@reddit
Less than 20 years ago people were paying for a 73 type just for the chance of an interview at Southwest.
jet-setting@reddit
Yep I remember those days when I was starting training and browsing the APC forums.
External-Victory6473@reddit
yes. Back in the 80s and 90s. Needed 5000 to 7000 hours, half of that multi, half of that turbine, to get a pay-for-your-training job at a regional to earn less than $1K per month. There were tons of laid off airline pilots back then.
prex10@reddit
www.southwest.com
JPAV8R@reddit
When I was in flight school 400 hrs and 50 duel could get you at a regional making 19,000 a year.
LegalRecord3431@reddit (OP)
Did you have to take a side job? I am coming into this from another career and the only feasible way I can justify a current FO salary is by supplementing with part 91 flights on the side. There is no way I could survive on 90K a year now, no idea how people did it back in the day
JPAV8R@reddit
I didn’t have the support network that allowed taking such a low paying job. I went 135 which then led to 91 and when I was sick of that noise I went 121.
There used to be an old YouTube video which unfortunately I can’t find because there are too many aviation influencers set to the song “I want money” which showed the very low wages at regionals.
People slept in crash pads bunked sometimes three high. One news organization even did an exposé on the rough living conditions of pilots at the time.
I think the new generation of pilots is unaware of that history.
Dbeaves@reddit
The ATP requirement raised regional wages. That was the point of raising it.
CBRChimpy@reddit
The Colgan 3407 FO had more than 2000 hours and thus still would have been there with a 1500 hour rule.
Clearly they wanted to implement a 1500 hour rule. If that plane didn't crash, they would have used a different excuse.
Bravo-Buster@reddit
Yes it would have came eventually. Both pilots in that crash had well above 1500 ATP minimums; total hours had nothing to do with it. Some safety person got Congress to insert it into the bill, and it became law. That would have happened at some point, in any FAA funding bill.
The rule wouldn't have prevented that crash. It shouldn't exist as a result of that crash. If safety wants to increase limits on things they should be vetted for what they actually are for. Attaching that onto a bill with the false narrative around a crash leads it to be awfully suspect as to its actual need. Put it another way, if it was actually needed in order to increase safety, they wouldn't have needed a trojan horse to pass it. and if it's not for safety, then call it what it is, and if it still passes then OK, so be it.
capn_davey@reddit
Airlines (as most for-profit businesses do) pay for the minimum level of safety required for maximum profit or regulatory compliance. That’s all I have to say about that.
FlyingShadow1@reddit
At the very least, in a grim way, this would keep people who are only in this for the money out of aviation. Now the field is flooded by people who came into aviation with 0 passion for aviation.
No-Series-3997@reddit
Meh, this goes both ways. Plenty of people with the passion would have been unable to pursue it due to the low returns. I like this way better.
Vincent-the-great@reddit
Passion doesn’t pay bills, I got into it for the money and fell in love with it along the way. Just because someone is obsessed with planes doesn’t necessarily make them a better pilot, ive flown with some grumpy grouches who hate it but they are better pilots than me
FlyingShadow1@reddit
I never said they had to be obsessed but they should have a passion for aviation. Even then I'm not saying being passionate makes them a better pilot.
Chasing career fields for solely the money usually has led to people hating what they do or just living unfulfilled lives (yes I know having lots of money means you can buy fulfilling things).
Vincent-the-great@reddit
Im in it for the adventure, every time I get 5-6 days off I puddle jump to Europe and explore new cities. A lot are ex military who just wanted to stay with something familiar to them
FlyingShadow1@reddit
To me it sounds like what you wrote is linked to passion for aviation.
Vincent-the-great@reddit
Pay would be shit because no barrier to entry, part 117 rules wouldn’t exist. Life would be so much worse and I probably wouldn’t have chosen this career
TheTangoFox@reddit
Lower wages, but probably more steady hiring & attrition.
Gotta remember we were coming out of the recession, and 65 became the mandatory retirement age.
setthrustpositive@reddit
IMHO:
If Colgan never happened, the Q400 would still be in use, bombardier would have never been split up, low pay, and a bunch of regional still open.
However, a similar accident would have happened. Prior to Colgan, there was Roselawn. In this timeline, pay would still be on the upswing.
0621Hertz@reddit
I personally think the requirement for both pilots in a 121 carrier operation (AKA the 1500 hour rule) to have a ATP rating would have eventually came to be.
However, the job market was pretty loose at the time the law was passed due to the FO pay being absolute garbage. It was one of the reasons I pursued the military route 12 years ago.
That being said, because of a pretty loose job market, I don’t think the silly R-ATP rule would have existed if the ATP rule was passed naturally.
butthole_lipliner@reddit
Speculating on whether an event that cost 50 people their lives would impact today’s hiring market if it hadn’t happened is kind of a weird look
prex10@reddit
"What if the south won" is a question many people have asked.
Doesn't mean it's a bad question.
butthole_lipliner@reddit
That’s a fair point. I respect it.
When I initially read this post it came across like another “but what about meeeeeeee” low-time FO bitching about the market or “I have 1500 hours now, where are my three CJOs to agonize over choosing from” type post I’ve come to know and love … and instead of getting off Reddit and having a beer, I decided to rage bait myself like a feral animal.
Anyway, now I’m gonna get off Reddit and grab a cold one
LegalRecord3431@reddit (OP)
How? It literally was the impetus of historical regulatory legislation.
butthole_lipliner@reddit
Yes, obviously. I just don’t understand the point of theorizing whether the regs would have organically changed without it.
SeatPrize7127@reddit
"Predict a different time line"
Guysmiley777@reddit
To be fair, OP appears to be using this subreddit as a coping mechanism.
LegalRecord3431@reddit (OP)
Copium is real mate
UNDR08@reddit
Change is stained by Death.
So. Doubtful.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Do you think the requirement for FO to have ATP would have eventually came to be? Would the market be more or less the same now? would demand have driven up the average time of new hires up to where it is now? Or would we still have 500 hour FO’s at regionals?
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