AA or WN | TheaterFire

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Tony_Three_Pies@reddit

I don't think I could stand to fly the same airplane for 35 years so that pretty much eliminated Southwest as a contender for me. If that's not a consideration for you then that's probably where I'd go. Southwest is a top shelf company and only missed being a "legacy" with the other 3 by technicality. They both seem to be on the struggle bus a bit at the moment, but Southwest seems pretty resilient. American is probably on the "too big to fail" end of the spectrum though.

The only factor that I'd weight very heavily is bases.

You say you'd move to base for either but where do you want to actually live long term (family, friends etc) and does one airline favor that place over the other? Take it from some one who has always "moved to base" for every job I've had and now is on my like 10th city since college - it gets old. I'm committed to commuting for now because I just can't stomach the idea of starting all over again. That may just be a "me" thing, but it's something to consider.

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proudlyhumble@reddit

Southwest’s CEO has very clearly talking about bringing another type or two onboard. It’ll never be like United, but the 737 for 35 years thing is not going to be valid.

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Derp_McShlurp@reddit

My money is on some clapped-out CRJ's while adding exotic new locations like FWA and CPR.

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proudlyhumble@reddit

Yeah okay dude

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Derp_McShlurp@reddit

About as likely as the 787's all the WN pilots seem to think are headed their way.

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proudlyhumble@reddit

Not sure what you’re so bitter about

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Difficult-While-7673@reddit

Most are still coping with the reality that they got the “TBNT” from Southwest and had to go work somewhere else. So now they pretend they never wanted to work there to begin with.

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Tony_Three_Pies@reddit

And United is going to be flying super sonic jets any day now…

I personally wouldn’t be making career decisions based on CEO promises.

But hey, a new type would be great for them so all the better.

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hanjaseightfive@reddit

Everytime I roll up to HNL and see SWA tails I cringe. That would be awful. Better them than me I guess.

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Difficult-While-7673@reddit

You must be really living the dream if SWA tails can shake your inner peace like that. Better you than me I guess.

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hanjaseightfive@reddit

Yeah you’re right. I stay up at night thinking about it. Actually most nights.

I don’t know if I’ll ever get my inner peace back.

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Difficult-While-7673@reddit

Sending prayers 🙏

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hanjaseightfive@reddit

I’m gonna need some Thoughts too along with them prayers if I’m gonna make it outta this thing in tact.

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Difficult-While-7673@reddit

Thoughts, prayers, all of it. Oh and hope. Hope that you will become happy enough with your own career that seeing another airline’s tail doesn’t trigger your jealousy. Hang in there brother.

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Ok-Selection4206@reddit

Imagine 2.5 hrs from land in a 737 on one motor.

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Ok-Selection4206@reddit

Agreed. 1 airplane my whole career would blow.

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Tony_Three_Pies@reddit

I didn't want to get too harsh about the 73 specifically but yea...

Hawaii is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what airlines (not just SW) are doing with the 73. 7+ hour flights in that shit can are becoming normal.

I'm glad I bid the hell away from it when I did. Unfortunately it is going to the backbone of most US airlines for the next 20 years at least so I'm sure I'll end up on it again at some point.

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poser765@reddit

Me a bus FO that starts 73 upgrade training in a couple of months: “oh it’ll be fine. Right? RIGHT?!

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Tony_Three_Pies@reddit

It’s fine. It’s just such a goofball airplane. The fact that the Max is the “state of the art” for narrow bodies at Boeing is just sad. Enjoy getting the Recall button to work.

The paycheck will help lol.

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poser765@reddit

Yeah. I am looking forward to moving ALL the switches.

Also I’ve been telling a lot of people a shit load of money buys a bit of quality of life… so we will see.

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hogdriver@reddit

No worries, the FO flips all the switches. You just turn on the yaw damper and take a nap until taxi.

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Negative_Swan_9459@reddit

They’re making 767 pay for the troubles. I doubt they’re all that torn up about it.

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Hokie_Pilot@reddit

10th city?! That’s a lot of bases. How much of that for you was regionals?

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Tony_Three_Pies@reddit

I don’t have to commute by any means. I’m just really tired of moving and really like where I live now. The commuting isn’t bad, and I make it as easy on myself as I can. Some day that math might stop mathing and I’ll suck it up and move again I’m sure.

Only 3 of those moves were for the regionals. I’ve been moving for jobs for a while now.

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Ok-Selection4206@reddit

I commuted for 33 yrs so far. But its been a low stress commute other than worrying about getting in an accident on the way to the airport. I have a 140 mile drive to a company airplane thats basically a positive space seat. Gone 7 days go home off 7-10 days do it again (basically) Accidents and road closures or icey roads are the most stressful.

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Hokie_Pilot@reddit

Gotcha, yeah moving sucks no doubt

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TransitionLess7228@reddit

Unless you live in a WN base that’s not an AA base, this seems like a no brainer. Remember that not very long ago they were hiring borderline CFI’s with hardly any turbine experience. There will be a time when that happens again because nobody wants to fly 5 legs a day. When you’re sitting in the left seat with an FO who pretty much bypassed the regionals, you’ll be wishing you went to AA I’ll bet. I don’t think SWA is what it used to be, and personally don’t think they ever will be. That culture is hard to get back

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Negative_Swan_9459@reddit

What are you talking about? Every carrier was hiring pilots less than a year out of a Cessna.

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Ok-Selection4206@reddit

And as an instructor in the 767 at the time, I never worked so hard or had so many discussions about pitch and power relationship in the previous 25 years of doing 121 ck airman work at 3 carriers. I wasn't just teaching how to fly a 767, I was teaching how to fly!

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SMELLYJELLY72@reddit

it is remarkable how the pilot skills fly out the window when handed a speedbrake. “hmm i could just slow my descent rate and slow down, OR pull this lever???”

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proudlyhumble@reddit

Been here a few years and have never flown a 5 leg day. The info you guys hold on to is so dated.

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Difficult-While-7673@reddit

Nobody at SWA is flying 5 legs a day. I wonder if saying that is a coping skill when legacy guys realize our colleagues at SWA are getting paid more to fly the same missions as us?

I also just flew with an FO at UA whose first jet was a United 737.

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ThatOnePilot@reddit

Like others have said, both are great jobs. Pilots, especially on Reddit, are obsessed with convincing themselves that they made the best choice and that everyone else is an idiot for not working where they do. It honestly tells you how good everyone has it if they have enough time on their hands to argue over minutiae 🤣 The industry is cyclical — every airline has good times and bad, pros and cons. If you have specific WN questions, feel free to DM me.

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prex10@reddit

Talk to u/difficult-while-7673 for the WN Wild Turkey flavored Kool Aid.

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Difficult-While-7673@reddit

Huh?

If the decision is between WN and AA and the variable is financials… I know we’re pilots and all but how are they even economically comparable? One has billions in debt and negative cash flow and the other has a positive net cash position and is making money.

AA lost only $200 million less than spirit did in the third quarter. And if you look at the scope of their operation and the issues that have led to their demise, the fact that AA has none of those problems yet the same horrid financials is quite alarming. Too big to fail sure, that doesn’t mean the government isn’t going to break them up or force some kind of shrinking.

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prex10@reddit

Oh you just seem to he the in-house WN cheerleader to figured I would summon.

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Difficult-While-7673@reddit

Thanks for the summon I enjoy participating in these types of discussions.

WN is a great company, the 20 somethings on reddit seem to think United and Delta are the only two career destinations

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RaidenMonster@reddit

Everyone knows UA and DL are the only airlines ever to never go bankrupt, furlough, blah blah blah.

I recommend everyone going to where they feel best about themselves being there. Faith in your company and an overall positive attitude makes more of a difference than the airplane and overnights you’ll get.

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srbmfodder@reddit

?? Ask any UA pilot that's been there for 20 or 30 years how many times they've been furloughed.

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RaidenMonster@reddit

I thought it was pretty obvious sarcasm but I suppose not.

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srbmfodder@reddit

What’s sarcasm? Sorry, in the days of the insta influencers spewing crap about “being the youngest typed 777 pilot” and writing a book about it to other grifters selling “how to pass the PTS” I’m fried on people that haven’t seen shit.

“I’m 24 and not at a regional yet is my life over?”

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Ok-Selection4206@reddit

Everyone knows UA and DL are the only airlines ever to never go bankrupt, furlough, blah blah blah.

What? Both filed bankruptcy and the pilots retirement was raided.

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SevenFortySwole@reddit

If you look at the actually earnings reports they are taking losses after paying debt. It’s not like they aren’t making money. Q3 of 2024 they paid off like 636 million in debt.

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Difficult-While-7673@reddit

Paying off debt is not reflect in EBIT at all…

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SevenFortySwole@reddit

They are paying off more than the minimum required toward its debt. This is evident from their accelerated deleveraging efforts, which go beyond contractual obligations. They have paid ahead of scheduled maturities. They reduced debt by like 1.2 billion quarter over quarter. I may not be the best finance guy out there but from what I can tell they are making operational profits prior to paying off debts. The aggressive debt reduction strategy they have is why they are taking losses each quarter no?

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Difficult-While-7673@reddit

I don’t believe you’re correct that debt payments would lower their profits. Those are calculated differently, outside of EBIT.

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srbmfodder@reddit

There are also other metrics to go by besides EBIT: EBITDA, cash flow, operating income, and the big thing the stock market cares about: future earnings.

Not saying AA is doing wonderful, they aren't, maybe they will turn the ship around, but their management is stagnant, slow, and scared. But the premium model doesn't have a big moat around it. More premium seats is relatively low effort, and if people are willing to fork over the cash, they may soon catch up to UA and DL. It will take a few years if it happens.

Elliot is kind of a wildcard with WN. Will they screw it up or make them turn around? Right now it looks like they are turning the place around. The no more bags for free was widely unpopular but here we are. But also, WN only has the 73, which is not exactly been making good headlines. The Max 9 is delayed still. I'm glad to see them turning it around though. I have friends at both airlines.

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Difficult-While-7673@reddit

I don’t know the details about accounting principles and financial reports that you’ve mentioned.

Elliott at SWA is no longer “active.” They haven’t been for a year. They did their work in refreshing the board and they are now just an interested investor. They could attempt to become more engaged again, but from what I understand there’s not a reason to now that the “old guard” of SWA has been removed.

AA is a gigantic ship with a tiny rudder. Chances are they end up being fine. But they will never be financially healthy. They’re in too deep of a hole.

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srbmfodder@reddit

I'm not an expert, I had an accounting class over 20 years ago and had to learn all that stuff and tried to keep up, but I don't really care that much. The thing I look at is how the stock market responds after earnings, because the companies are held to what they say about future performance. Like these airlines are taking X amount of deliveries which will lead to more revenue, this initiative, bla bla bla. The earnings call always reveals a lot.

I had no idea about Elliot not being active. I'd say that's good, I just don't follow it much. I'm more in the boat that I prefer competition even at my own company's detriment. I'd rather travel be affordable for everyone and we all compete to produce a good product.

AA is definitely showing a positive trend. I imagine this debt is gettin cheaper by the minute with inflation, and I assume they financed or refinanced a lot of it during the low rates of covid. I wouldn't underestimate them either. They hired some people with some good credentials to turn around their quality issues. I've had much better dealing with DL and UA gate agents jumpseating, and I think AA has a lot of culture issues to overcome with their customer facing people. But big companies can and do turn around. Not all the time. Look at how Microsoft floundered for a good 10-15 years under Steve Ballmer. he was supposed to keep things kicking butt like they did under Bill Gates, and they struggled. But AAs management probably needs to be cleaned out.

It's fun to speculate. Best advice I've gotten was from a Fedex pilot who has repeated a thing many pilots have said to me, "you won't know if you picked the right place until you're retiring in X amount of years."

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0621Hertz@reddit

Shhhh let the Tulip boy talk smack because of a Wendover Productions video.

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butthole_lipliner@reddit

Both are a race to the bottom unless you want to be a guppy jockey for the next 35 years

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Weasel474@reddit

Oh no, someone makes a few hundred grand a year with a lot of time off by flying an old airplane! How terrible!

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Ok-Selection4206@reddit

It does get old. I flew a dc9 for 13 yrs all domestic. When I upgraded in 1998, I made 180k that was a good pay ck for 1998. When I went to the dc9 as an fo 3 years earlier, it was my 6th airplane in 6 yrs and decided I was going to retire on the 9. After 13 yrs I bid the 767 to get a chance of scenery and learn something new.

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Weasel474@reddit

I get that, even fighter guys get a bit tired of the same routine after a while. Just wanted to point out to him that there are MUCH worse places to be, even within this industry. Nothing is perfect, but it sure as heck beats a real job.

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Ok-Selection4206@reddit

Still should go where he wants to stay and has the equipment he wants fly. Not just a job that pays good. At that level they all pay good.

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Weasel474@reddit

Totally agreed, I just thought that the dude saying flying a 737 for WN is a race to the bottom is full of BS. Not for everyone, but it's hardly a terrible job, tons of guys love it there, and it's a great career destination. Not sure how you'd call Hawaiian a race to the bottom either, especially after the merger with Alaska.

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proudlyhumble@reddit

Not to mention the CEO has been talking about plans to bring on another type soon, and likely wide bodies in the near but not super near future.

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Difficult-While-7673@reddit

I would bet WN has the same amount of retirements off set by another couple years.

Do you want to fly widebody and you don’t care about the financial health of your company? AA

Do you not care about widebody and/or you care about the financial health of your company? WN

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Lanky_Beyond725@reddit

On what planet is WN financially healthy?

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theflyingcowboy@reddit

Earth.

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Ok-Selection4206@reddit

Not the earth we live on.

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Ok-Selection4206@reddit

Lol, that was my thought!

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Negative_Swan_9459@reddit

Stop getting your news from YouTube comment sections and Reddit.

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Difficult-While-7673@reddit

Planet earth

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Baystate411@reddit

I'd probably go to southwest. AA isn't in a great position right now and some armchair experts think they'll declare the B word in the next ten years. Why not UA or DL?

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BasilProfessional09@reddit

At least AA is too big and established to fail.

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RaidenMonster@reddit

With WN being the largest per departure domestic carrier, I’d think they are in the “too big to fail” category.

Maybe not but more markets would be SOL with WN going down than some others.

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proudlyhumble@reddit

Not to mention that WN is a backbone for pilots commuting on other airlines. Nothing made this more clear than when WN had their big meltdown two years ago.

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biggusfootusnz@reddit

Wellington is pretty sweet, although high cost of living, Auckland had better international connections, but worse traffic.

I would go Wellington

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Positive_Hippo1276@reddit

Whoever makes you competitive at UA or DL the fastest.

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TemporaryAmbassador1@reddit

Are you trying to hurt my feelings?

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Negative_Swan_9459@reddit

All the top level jobs are great careers, we’ll all spend time at the top and bottom.

I would seriously consider the source on this sub as it skews heavily to lacking industry experience and DL and UA are the largest koolaid drinkers of the entire lot. Talk to real AA and WN pilots to make your decision, hopefully you have actual offers before posting yet another silly comparison thread.

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VileInventor@reddit

CJO’s from both? if not apply to both.

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saxmanB737@reddit

AA.

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MyPilotInterview@reddit

I think with an activist investor AA is the safest bet.

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Ludicrous_speed77@reddit

You have a job offer at both, right?

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ThatLooksRight@reddit

I’d go to AA then update my apps for DL and UA.

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

AA or WN. I would move to base at either, I’ve got 35 years left. Biggest pros to AA I see: the seniority growth from their retirements currently and long term flying variety. Pros at WN seem to be the schedule flexibility and making extra money. Curious to hear y’all’s thoughts

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