Pre-flight observation
Posted by Opposite-Shame352@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 94 comments
Daughter is a ppl student and discovered this during her pre-flight of a C172. Looks like a frayed rope. Is this ok to fly with like this? Location is between elevator and horizontal stabilizer.
zeropapagolf@reddit
She should ask her instructor. But to answer your question, that is a grounding strap that electrically bonds the elevator to the rest of the airframe. It should be fixed, but it's not totally broken and there's another one on the other end of the elevator. I'd fly it while awaiting repair.
hogtiedcantalope@reddit
Broken grounding strap contributed to the langoliers situation
Darksirius@reddit
I work at a BMW dealers body shop. I've seen a loose ground strap cause half of the control modules in the entire car to go incommunicado and stop functioning all at once.
LsG133@reddit
I drive a mini and this is exactly what recently happened to me
Opening-Dragonfly537@reddit
You fell out of the sky in your car, and because of high resistance between components? That is incredible. The big question is did you your BRS (British Racing Stripe)?
Guysmiley777@reddit
Luckily there are no electronic modules in the elevator of a GA trainer aircraft. But it's still a great sign that the student doing the preflight is paying attention.
Darksirius@reddit
Agree on the latter part.
I was just pointing out a bad ground on a car (and probably a plane) can cause some wild issues.
MJG1998@reddit
These are bonding straps for dissipating static (chiefly P-static, which you can read about in the AIM). One of the many being frayed isn't going to cause any issues with dissipating electrical energy.
These are not grounding straps for electronic equipment so it can't and wont cause any issues.
Darksirius@reddit
Gotcha. Appreciate the clarification.
RecentAmbition3081@reddit
That’s why we’re A&Ps. She did a great job of spotting it. Will the airplane fall out of the sky? Doubt it. The chances of an electrical issue is null.
RecentAmbition3081@reddit
And it will bond through the attach bolt, even with a lighting strike, doubt any issues will make it fall out of sky.
vicious_delicious_77@reddit
Wait was that actually the reason? I just remember tuning into that movie randomly as a kid and thought it was super weird, couldn't remember what caused everything though.
hogtiedcantalope@reddit
Like any aviation safety incident there's multiple contributing factors , I'll link the NTSB report later
CR00KANATOR@reddit
Anxiously awaiting.
faaiden@reddit
probably the most niche thing i've laughed at today lmao
RollSomeCoal@reddit
King reference?
Ok_Oil_4585@reddit
Jet mechanic here. Good thing she noticed it. This is used to make sure every part of the aircraft is grounded and helps prevent excess static. As the aircraft is in flight, it likes to store static electricity. These are called bonding wires (for electrical bonding). It’s basically used as one big lazy static circuit for the airframe & components attached like this trailing edge flap. It is separated from the avionics, flight controls, comms, etc. Hope this helps!
GoobScoob@reddit
This is a very common scenario question given to private pilot applicants during their checkride. Your daughter is getting the experience first hand!
Question 1.) is it legal to fly with it like this?
Question 2.) is it safe?
Ask her and let us know what answers she comes back with!
TheCodeWizard@reddit
what’s the answer to this? 😅
galvanized_steelies@reddit
Currently: 1 is no, and therefore 2 is no. But really, just needs to be documented, maintenance will look at it and defer it (not sure what the form is on the American side), and then it’s captured, parts ordered, and is legal and safe to fly, even in the current state
senorpoop@reddit
The answer is check the POH. If the POH doesn't have the answer, it's an "ask the mechanic" situation as any airworthiness limitations that aren't in the POH will be in the AMM.
RDRNR3@reddit
And technically if it is not documented anywhere then it is grounded until fixed.
stardreamer00@reddit
MKAT9PD
Choi0706@reddit
Happened on my checkride with a loose camlock. The DPE grilled me these two questions, and where I should look..
DependentHorror2081@reddit
It’s a grounding strap. They are normally deferred until next major inspection or maintenance. Just had our mechanics clip one yesterday because it was frayed
AnnualWhole4457@reddit
Just a frayed bonding strap. Not a super dangerous thing. Important enough that I'd write it up. It grounds the elevator and allows static electricity to flow to the static wicks to....well....wick static and prevent radio interference.
sleepingorangutans@reddit
good for her for being observant! shouldn’t pose any safety issues. it’s to discharge static electricity but as a ppl student she shouldn’t be flying through rain so not a big deal
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
"ppl student shouldn't be flying through rain"
I asked my student how it went during his solo practice? He said "good, I climbed up a bit and went into a cloud layer to see what it was like"
Never know.
MushroomWaste3782@reddit
Hah! No fear in that student.
I'm probably someone who'd do this too, because even if I'm not instrument rated I do know what instruments are for and how to use them. I'm also observant and smart enough to understand that, if I was in clear air and climbed to enter the cloud, I know where the clear air is or should be. (Hint: It's down there under me.)
There's also this thing called a Standard Right Turn that can be used to execute a 180* U-turn.
And no I'd never tell anyone because, not being IFR rated, flying in IFR conditions is a no-no.
tparikka@reddit
Lots of untrained pilots thought they couldn't die in clouds because they knew how to execute a turn and get out of clouds. A lot of those pilots are dead and in the process put other pilots in the clouds at risk.
178 Seconds To Live
Please review your hazardous attitudes.
MushroomWaste3782@reddit
Glider pilots routinely fly just below clouds because that's where the lift is and occasionally will drift into the lower cloud layer. I don't see them falling out of the sky because they couldn't see the ground for a few seconds.
And of course, many pilots inadvertently end up IMC and still manage not to die.
You know why? Because most people aren't stupid. I count myself in that category. A risk taker, yes, but not stupid.
And here's the ONE FACT you fail to mention; a pilot's certificate is the minimum standard, not the highest standard. That means that one can be a student pilot and also be skilled/smart/experienced enough to fly IMC without a problem. Because, you know, shit happens and you need to be prepared for it and a signature in your logbook doesn't convey magical proficiency.
You, on the other hand, would lump everyone without an Instrument Rating in the bottom of the barrel of barely capable idiots without a clue, forgetting that student pilots are trained with foggles to still be able to fly the airplane even if they can't see outside. So telling someone that their IMC flight training for times when they cannot see outside the airplane isn't good enough is about as fucking STUPID as it gets.
And let's not quote stats because you're going to lose that argument as soon as I raise the impossible turn issue.
Please review your bias and leave it at the door next time you decide to opine foolishly.
tparikka@reddit
There's no foolish opining here, only facts. You are presenting a textbook case of macho direct from the hazardous attitudes list in the PHAK. Please correct your attitudes before you get yourself or someone else hurt.
No one here is lumping everyone without an IR in the bottom of the barrel of barely capable pilots. They are, however, reminding you that the purpose of foggle training at the private level is to give a candidate pilot better odds of successfully escaping from clouds. A few hours under the hood is not a substitute for 40+ hours of time under the hood / simulated where you drill performance and maneuvers without outside visual reference. It does not teach you how to identify and ignore the various illusions the body can experience when outside reference is lost, something that can only happen with experience. It doesn't drill into you monitoring of your instruments for all their potential failures, not nearly to the same degree. The Instrument Rating is for all of those things and more.
Finally, something that you're not addressing is the danger you place other pilots in when you fly in IMC without an instrument flight plan. The VFR minimums are there to protect pilots flying in IMC on IFR flight plans from pilots in VMC flying VFR. If you are breaching the cloud clearance requirements while not on an IFR flight plan you are putting pilots who did not consent to your dangerous decisions at risk because they may not know you are in the soup with them and may not see you until it's too late.
For the sake of yourself, pilots who fly in IMC, and the safety of other pilots who may take you seriously, please start taking VFR cloud clearances seriously.
MushroomWaste3782@reddit
Get over yourself. NO ONE is advocating routinely flying in IMC without training.
tparikka@reddit
No one is advocating for routinely flying in IMC without training, but everyone essentially except you is advocating for never flying in IMC without training.
MushroomWaste3782@reddit
EXCEPT!!!!
You GET training as a student pilot to do exactly that. It's a requirement as part of your 40 hours.
Basically you and all the rest here are saying that the required training a student pilot gets is inadequate to fly an airplane. That's not your call. Nor is it realistic.
tparikka@reddit
We are not saying that the training a student pilot gets is inadequate to fly an airplane. We are saying that it is inadequate to fly in clouds or violate visual flight rules.
Pilot certificates are a privilege that are contingent on following the law. 91.155 is federal aviation law and a condition of exercising your pilot privileges. Choosing when to obey or not obey that law is not your call, and obeying the law is in fact realistic.
MushroomWaste3782@reddit
WT actual F?
Based on your beliefs (because they don't track reality) Mike Melville should have stayed at home because he wasn't "rated" to fly an airplane into space.
And of course you've NEVER EVER driven faster than the speed limit, rolled a stop sign, or anything else in your entire life. Because a driver's license is a privilege contingent on following the law. Right?
I can smell your bullshit all the way over here, so you go ahead an waggle your finger at the internet for someone doing what you'd never have the courage to do. Because I have the feeling that what you'd do with that "reckless student" mentioned above is cut him off (so you'd preserve your precious CFI certification unsullied) instead of giving him additional IMC training to ensure that if he does it again he'll have something solid to rely on other than luck.
But you do you.
Jimmi5150@reddit
Please realise how dangerous your statements are in the normalisation of doing dangerous things. Your macho attitude is not going to win you anything but a potential atsb report. You are making a hell of alot of assumptions based on things that no one has said in this thread. 178seconds to live is a real thing, if you dont believe the study you can believe the atsb findings on the plethora of crashes that have happened because of flying into IMC as a newly trained or training pilot. No one is talking about professionals or IR pilots, even though there is still a risk especcially more so in single engine a/c, low hour
In other words blow your macho atitude out your behind, and are you even a pilot? I hope you arent or I hope you are just purposely being a rage baiter
MushroomWaste3782@reddit
People do dangerous things all the time. In the modern context, are you trying to say you've never EVER exceeded the speed limit? Rolled a stop sign? Mixed bleach and ammonia? Set off firecrackers?
In less modern times, people stepped off the boat and walked into the wilderness to settle and create a new society. Dangerous as all hell but they did it.
It's not macho, it's acceptance that life is dangerous sometimes. Kind of like flying without being gifted wings by nature (and even that's no guarantee you won't fall out of the sky anyway).
Jimmi5150@reddit
Bro just stop.
MushroomWaste3782@reddit
Why? You going to rat me out to the FAA?
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Not stupid....like John Jr?
MushroomWaste3782@reddit
It was about a student who was aware of his surroundings and took a controlled risk.
You're all acting like some student on his first solo decided to brave the ice storm of the century in a C150.
Then there's this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZPDfZArP_Q&t=98s
Amazing how a little bit of smarts and awareness lets you live longer than the aforementioned 178 seconds.
Because it's ALL ABOUT controlling and minimizing risk.
Immediate_Cut7658@reddit
Violating CARs/FARs for fun because you're smart enough to survive IMC without sufficient training..? You should review CRM dangerous attitudes.
Immediate_Cut7658@reddit
By the way, you're soloing on your instructor's endorsement. Their ass is on the line if you do something stupid and damage yourself, the plane, or others. Dick move to screw over someone who's probably spent a lot of time and effort trying to ensure your success.
MushroomWaste3782@reddit
Cry me a river.
I know you have to parrot the narrative but it's meaningless in the real world.
tparikka@reddit
Caring about your instructor's certificate, your certificate, your safety, and the safety of other pilots in and around the soup is far from meaningless.
Immediate_Cut7658@reddit
Have it your way, best case scenario your CFI strangles you as soon as the prop stops, worst case scenario, you end up on YouTube. Just do it a couple miles away from civilization and other air traffic.
Qauiliubi@reddit
This is a joke right? Please say sike rn
planetrainguy@reddit
O-o
sleepingorangutans@reddit
HAHA valid
flyinboxes@reddit
Shouldn’t be flying through clouds. Rain is a different story. I’ve flown through lots of rain and been vfr
_MartinoLopez@reddit
Nothing illegal about flying through rain when VFR, as long as visibility stays above minimums.
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
Encourage your daughter to take questions like these to her CFI, if she isn't already doing so.
Fly4Vino@reddit
If I had to guess .----
Grounding strap appears "patched" which shortened it and then it broke.
Potential red flag re maintenance practices
Student deserves ++ for noting abnormality
Student to instructor - This looks abnormal to me, condition and patching.
Swwert@reddit
Ackchyually, they’re bonding straps not grounding straps
NotSayinItWasAliens@reddit
The grounding strap is what connects the plane to the ground, right?
derdyn@reddit
Doesn’t look patched, these things take 30 secs to change and are typically deferrable under most airframe tech data. Nobody really “repairs” them. Not even sure there is an approved repair, we always just replaced them or deferred them depending on how close departure time was.
That’s based on airline experience, though. Never worked GA.
Good find, though. Great attention to detail.
kytulu@reddit
On the 172S, they take 20 minutes or so to change, depending on the skill and tools of the A&P. I have spliced them back together before if they are long enough if the flight block could not be pushed back, since I can splice it in 5 minutes.
After the splice, I fab up a new strap and install it the next time the aircraft is down for maintenance.
derdyn@reddit
20 mins!!?? We’d be getting to know our super better if it took 20 mins for a bonding strap.
derdyn@reddit
Not sure why I’m getting downvoted, that’s how it was…. But whatever
kytulu@reddit
sigh
When you can only get 1/8th of a turn on the hardware stack that is inside the elevator and only accessible through the small gap in OP'S pic, it takes 20 minutes to remove and replace the strap using two open-end wrenches because that's all that will fit.
For the end that is attached to the Philips head screw, it takes a little less time because I can get an ignition wrench on the nut and use my screw gun to back the screw out.
Swwert@reddit
I worked at a flight club some time back. We used to fabricate new ones whenever needed
derdyn@reddit
Make full new ones or “patch” old ones. I’ve made new with full new all one length braids terminated, but I’ve never seen one “patched” before.
I assumed by “patched” they meant basically spliced, for lack of better word.
tailwheel307@reddit
A lot of GA just removes them if the plane won’t be flying any IFR anytime soon.
kytulu@reddit
It's a normal insulated ring terminal. It frayed from wear during normal flight. It happens.
PlanetMcFly@reddit
With something like this, not likely called out in a POH, an MEL or a checklist, not sure I would trust your average CFI either. The CFI should at minimum go ask an A&P.
Asking Reddit for a few second opinions is honestly not a bad approach.
RDRNR3@reddit
Agreed. Although I think I knew what these were when I was a young CFI, I’m not sure I could find any reference for it.
Hopefully CFI’s and most of us in general, are humble enough to embody the “I don’t know the answer, but I can help you find it” mindset. And taking this question to an A&P would be the right choice then.
Random61504@reddit
Yup. Anytime I ever saw something that I'm not confident in, straight to my CFI.
biodal@reddit
Not a big deal. Can be easily changed but the aircraft still has more than just these binding straps in the photo.
Technical_Present_65@reddit
That you even have to ask this in the first place…..
LifeWeekend@reddit
I wouldn’t take it. TBH I won’t take any of them if I’m not 100% satisfied with the control surface condition in any of these 70 year old plane. Remember it’s always one step away from being featured on PilotDebrief.
185EDRIVER@reddit
It's a electrical bonding line
maxcatmdwv0053@reddit
Anyone worried about that Phillips head situation? 😂
kytulu@reddit
Nope.
There should be a washer there. The filiform corrosion under the surrounding paint is a result of dissimilar metal corrosion happening because that is where the other end of the bonding strap attaches to on the inside of the elevator. The missing paint is supposed to be there, just not quite that much. You want metal to metal contact for grounding or bonding straps.
I usually remove the hardware stack, clean off the corrosion, prime and repaint, and reinstall the bonding strap with new hardware at the annual inspection.
rdrcrmatt@reddit
Do not go into IMC until that is fixed.
auron8772@reddit
It's fine for VFR, for sure. It just means possible light static on the comms with one less path to dissipate static electricity.
pilotavery@reddit
It's fine in VFR, it can cause a little bit of wonky readings on some instruments.
Opposite-Shame352@reddit (OP)
I should add that the insructor did say not to worry about it for VFR flight.
NoRecipe3152@reddit
“I’m gonna text daddy so that he can post the photo on Reddit and get answers from random people instead of going to my CFI and asking if this is safe”
1213Alpha@reddit
That's a broken bonding strap. Is it safe to fly like that? Probably but as an A&P I certainly wouldn't risk it. In my opinion it's unairworthy until that strap is fixed but I am not your A&P or the flight school's A&P.
Venture419@reddit
While they fix the grounding strap they can also check and see if they have the right washer stack for the mount. It looks like they are missing a washer and it is rubbing for sure.
SquidShadeyWadey@reddit
God my dumb-ahh thought this was a FBW cable, but a lot of others informing me it's a grounding cable.
Mre64@reddit
I am the kind of pilot that would call off a flight if I had too big a fart that day. It will fly it’s a grounding cable , and you’ll probly be fine, put in a ticket and assess if that a risk you want to take
EntroperZero@reddit
Technically speaking, this is "okay" to fly VFR for the reasons mentioned, it's a bonding strap to help dissipate static in IMC. But the more important question to ask is, how did it get this way?
nl_Kapparrian@reddit
As a pilot you tell management "I'll fly it if you have a qualified mechanic sign it off as airworthy". Spoiler A&P is going to fix it or not sign it off.
antreas3@reddit
Broken bonding strap. Can fly. Should be fixed at some point.
HardcoreHenryLofT@reddit
Thats a zap strap. It grounds the flap or control surface to the frame. Wothout it you get a static build up and some of your instruments do not like it. Definitely a snag. If you have an MEL it might be on there but on a small plane I couldn't imagine it having an MEL. 100% talk to maintenance.
ashtranscends@reddit
Other commenters have explained this in much greater detail than I could. I would personally be okay with flying this one in VMC only.
It’s good to see your daughter taking her preflight inspections seriously. There’s a chance she may be discouraged and waved off by her school when she finds things like this, depending on how the school is run. Hopefully she stays the way she is now - always checking, asking questions & willing to refuse an aircraft if it doesn’t sit right with her.
InternationalBag7290@reddit
It’s good that she is observant! It won’t have any effect on VFR (good weather) flying. That’s a bonding wire. When an airplane flys through precipitation (IFR), a static charge will tend to build up on the airframe and this causes radio interference (static). Static wicks and various bonding wires provide a path to discharge the static buildup and improve radio communication. Hope this helps.
voretaq7@reddit
Ayup. That Ain't Right.
It's probably not a major problem though.
What you're looking at is the bonding strap for the flight control surface At the trailing edge are probably little bits of wire sticking out - those are static wicks, and they allow static electricity that builds up in the airframe to dissipate so it doesn't fuck with your radios.
In order to get the static electricity from the rest of the airframe into the control surface so it can exit via the pointy end of the static wick reliably the control surfaces are bonded to the rest of the airframe with a length of flexible braided wire - that lets the control surfaces move (and lets you have plastic bushings so they move smoothly) but still gets the built-up static electricity to the trailing edge where it can be disposed of.
If I noticed this I would not fly the aircraft IFR or in IMC - that's where you tend to pick up static, flying in the clouds. I'd consider it good-to-go for VFR operations as long as the damaged strap isn't interfering with anything or at risk of being pinched by a pushrod and jamming anything.
I would also squawk it and see how maintenance responds.
PP4life@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/s/ScJpNzDTGd
TxAggieMike@reddit
That is the electrical bonding strap between the two parts.
Allows static electricity buildup to move and eventually be discharged.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Daughter is a ppl student and discovered this during her pre-flight of a C172. Looks like a frayed rope. Is this ok to fly with like this? Location is between elevator and horizontal stabilizer.
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