Why do people have this idea that the British monarchy is somehow quasi-German when they can all trace their ancestry back to William the Conqueror?

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FidelityBob@reddit

But they can be traced back to the Saxon kings, from Northern Germany, so German and through Normandy to the Vikings, so Scandinavian. They are mongrels like the rest of us.

The royal families of Europe are so intermarried you can't put an origin on any of them.

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SparkeyRed@reddit

They can all trace their ancestry back to William I, just not solely through the male line.

They also have German ancestry (which is far more recent).

William I had German(ic) ancestry too fwiw - he was a Norman, and the Normans were literally Nor(th)men whose ancestors starting squatting in northern France and didn't go back. "Northmen" were the Germanic tribes, back in the day. Bit academic for this point, but an interesting aside.

William could also trace his ancestry back to Alfred the Great, although again it wasn't solely through the male line (iirc). That means that the current royal family can do the same.

I can also trace my ancestry back to William I, fwiw (and also Alfred) ... and so can most of England (at least, those people who don't have recent immigration into the UK in their family). That's the thing with ancestry - go far enough back and everyone is related, because we all have 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, etc etc... go back far enough and there weren't enough people in the world for everyone's ancestors to be different people. That point in time is not as far back as you might think for an island which didn't have any mass migration between about 1,000 AD - 2,000 AD (obv there are exceptions, but they're not statistically significant for that time period).

"most of the inhabitants of Western Europe are probably descended from William the Conqueror; they are equally likely to be descended from the man who groomed his charger."

— Lines Of Succession - Heraldry Of The Royal Families Of Europe, Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan

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OkTechnologyb@reddit (OP)

Thank you. This helps to put it all into context.

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SparkeyRed@reddit

I think "lineAGE" makes one think that ancestry is a straight line, or close to it, and that to be related to someone 1,000 years ago is pretty special. But it's really not: ancestry is more like a pyramid, with millions of people at the base for every individual person 1,000 years ago. Just because that person might have been a king doesn't change the maths.

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OkTechnologyb@reddit (OP)

Good point. I should have used a word other than "lineage" in my original post. I won't edit now due to all the answers so far. A better word for what I was trying to express is "descent."

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SparkeyRed@reddit

It's not an incorrect word, it's just that our use of it has a lot of baggage

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DrHydeous@reddit

They are replacements imported from Hannover when the real monarchs had inconvenient beliefs about religious toleration.

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skibbin@reddit

Charles is approximately half German by ancestry

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SilyLavage@reddit

How have you worked that one out?

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BusyBeeBridgette@reddit

I'd assume through Princess Alice.

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SilyLavage@reddit

Would you call someone half-German based on their great-grandfather and great-great-great grandmother?

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BusyBeeBridgette@reddit

Well, I mean, if you look at all the ancestors he has from over the past 200 years and how much inbreeding there has been (his parents were essentially second cousins) Then you could assume that roughly half of his ancestry is German, yes.

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SilyLavage@reddit

His mother was British with two British parents and his father was a naturalised Brit born in Greece to a Greece-born father and a UK-born mother. Seems a bit unlikely that he'd be 50% German.

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BusyBeeBridgette@reddit

Ancestry, not nationality. If you go on Nationality alone, most foreign monarchs would be British because they were often born in places like Buckingham Palace.

Also Victoria and Albert were blood related which just deepens the German bloodline even more so.

It is less German these days though with William and his children because Diana's own lineage comes from King Charles II own lineage through illegitimate means.

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skibbin@reddit

You're right, has ancestry is unknowable due to being completely undocumented. If only we had some titles, portraits, and proclamations to go on, but sadly nothing.

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SilyLavage@reddit

His mother was British and had two British parents. His father was born in Greece to a father born in Greece and a mother born in the UK, and later became a naturalised British citizen.

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Robbylution@reddit

They're friends. Chuck shared his 23andMe results while they were watching The Crown.

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skibbin@reddit

We shared a spliff and laughed about the poors

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Diazepam_Dan@reddit

There have been no peer reviewed genetic tests published but geneticists consider Charles to be around 57% German

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Gormolius@reddit

Because the current royal house is Saxe coburg-gotha, which is of German origin

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Zealousideal_Till683@reddit

No, the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha dynasty ended with Elizabeth II. The current royal house is Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg.

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SilyLavage@reddit

The current royal house is Windsor, and has been since 1917.

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Gormolius@reddit

Only because they changed their name due to fighting a war with Germany. Still German origin.

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SilyLavage@reddit

The royals clearly consider themselves British, though. It strikes me as vaguely anti-integration to suggest they're not.

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Gormolius@reddit

Noone (worth paying attention to, imo) is seriously suggesting they're not British because they're of German origin. It's more a commentary on the dichotomy of a British royal family having origins outside of the UK. It's either a critique of the system of aristocracy, which could be seen as vaguely anti integration I suppose, or more a mildly interesting anecdote.

Logically, there are only so many noble/royal families in Europe/the world. If royal families weren't mixing across countries you'd have a Habsburgs issue.

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SilyLavage@reddit

I do think there are overtones of 'they're not really British' in the joke about the royals being German. If they're German then they're also Greek, Danish, and more than a bit British.

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Gormolius@reddit

Yeah, maybe. As republican arguments go, it's quite hard to find a worse one though. Monarchists are unlikely to bring it up if they have an issue.

Anyone thinking that with any degree of seriousness massively undermines their credibility to most people.

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Zealousideal_Till683@reddit

Well either way it's not Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.

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Gormolius@reddit

Ah, I stand corrected. Still German I'm guessing?

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Zealousideal_Till683@reddit

Danish by way of Greece.

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Gormolius@reddit

Ah, I did know the Greek part now you mention it. TIL!

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DavidJonnsJewellery@reddit

Doesn't really matter that much anyway. We're all Anglo Saxon. And the Angles and Saxons were German

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Responsible-Kiwi870@reddit

We're really not all anglo saxon at all

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DavidJonnsJewellery@reddit

Okay, throw in some Celt, Scandinavian, Roman and French

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MattDubh@reddit

Because that isn't the case.

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OkTechnologyb@reddit (OP)

That the current royals aren't related to William I?

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UserCannotBeVerified@reddit

Im a direct descendant of William the conqueror's mother (he was a bastard child, his mother had two sons to two different men, im related to the half brother), and yet I live in a caravan by the side of the road 😂😂

The Mounteneys (Montagne, Mounteny, and various other spellings throughout the years) came over with William during the whole taking of england business, and we've dwindled our riches over the years to nothing. Back in the days of 1066, nepotism and cronyism was everything, so roundabout the 1200's when the king fell out with Billy C's family (technically my ancestors) he stripped us of our land and titles, and that stripping of land and title continued for the next 500 years or so, to the point we're at nowadays. Its worth noting BTW, that when I say im a direct descendant, im talking father to son to son to son etc (which is called the pedigree line).

(My great uncle - grandads brother - has spent his whole life researching family history and names. He contributed an obscene amount of files and research to ancestry.com when they first launched and still to this day continues to work on family trees for people. Back in his hayday before the internet, if you wanted to research you had to trace through birth marriage and death certificates, compare the styles of handwriting against others to identify the correct person etc, so he followed more than a few dead ends for years before, all the while learning about new families amd new names. Hes basically a wealth of knowledge when it comes to English and wider UK surnames and their origins/placements. Luckily for us, our family name has a deep history, so our descendants had status and were literate enough to have things written about them as well as being able to write things themselves - most people's family trees crash out at around the -200year mark due to people being illiterate and only being able to sign their name with an indistinguishable "X", which makes identifying one Mary Smith from the other nigh on impossible.)

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tradandtea123@reddit

Most of England are probably related to William I, it's about 40 generations ago and as 2 to the power of 40 is about a trillion that's how many direct descendants we have, or more accurately everyone is interbred going back that far and it would be almost impossible for someone English (or for that matter American, Australian etc) to not be direct descendants of William I.

There isn't a direct line of succession from back then though. The royals have changed at various times such as after the war of the roses, William of Orange, or James I who was a Scottish king who took over the English throne. The current royal family almost certainly have more German descendants than most people in England.

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MattDubh@reddit

There's even a google link provided for you by another viewer.

Fetch adult to assist you with opening it.

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BobBobBobBobBobDave@reddit

Well as you say, the twists and turns are very convoluted.

The current ruling house is the house of Windsor, which was known as the house of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and Gotha (very Germanic) before changing name due to anti German sentiment in the First World War.

That line goes back to when George I (who really was German) became king in the 18th century.

The Georgian monarchs had strong links to Hanover and were much more culturally "German". Then the links kind of continue, e. g. Victoria married a German.

So you are right that it is kind of exaggerated, but it is a bit of a joke, and like all good jokes there is a grain of truth.

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OkTechnologyb@reddit (OP)

Great answer. Thank you.

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Negative_Touch_3956@reddit

Try this:

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=uk+royal+family+tree

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OkTechnologyb@reddit (OP)

Why do people like you even bother to join Reddit? Just to tell people to Google things instead?

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SilyLavage@reddit

The German-ness of the royal family is overstated in popular culture. The most recent monarch or consort to be unambiguously German was Prince Albert, who is five generations removed from Charles III.

Alexandra of Denmark was Danish, Mary of Teck is a bit complicated but was raised in the UK, Queen Elizabeth was British, Prince Philip had a complicated upbringing but became a naturalised British subject, and Diana was British.

The Georgians were more German, although even then it's worth remembering that they only became monarchs of Great Britain because they were descended from the Stuarts in the female line.

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OkTechnologyb@reddit (OP)

Excellent answer. Thank you.

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Waste_Ad4554@reddit

The lineage doesn’t go back to William the conqueror, the line was broken hundreds of years ago.

The current line of royals in the Uk are German. We even had several kings called George who didn’t even speak English.

The current royal family changed their family name from Saxe-Goth to Windsor during World War One as having a German name didn’t go down well.

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Ruby-Shark@reddit

Charles III is a direct descendant of William the Conqueror, notwithstanding that the direct line of descent was broken more than once.

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OkTechnologyb@reddit (OP)

Exactly. Thank you. I'm talking about being a direct descendant, not lines of descent. As though these were normal people who were able to trace their family trees, and all the nomenclature of royalty and "houses" were irrelevant. In that sense, Charles III is a direct descendant of William the Conqueror, whatever other rude-arse people might say.

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Former-Mirror-356@reddit

I mean, the lineage goes back that far, just not strictly across the male line as one dynasty, but ultimately all claims flow through William I. George I's mother was a descendant of William the Conqueror.

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vexedvi@reddit

Sweetie, I am a direct descendent of W1 as are thousands/ hundred of thousands of people. The current royal family - maybe not

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furrycroissant@reddit

Do you have any knowledge of the royal family lineage? Between cousins and someone's brothers 3rd sibling who all ended up on the throne the current Monarch is not related to William the Conquerer. The current family is literally half German, from Queen Vic's husband.

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Glittering_Habit_161@reddit

What about Queen Victoria's grandmother?

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MortimerDongle@reddit

George I didn't even speak English.

Is the royal family quasi-German? Certainly they have more recent German ancestry than the average English person does.

As far as tracing their ancestry from William the Conquerer, virtually every European alive can do that. Even direct paternal descendants would be millions of people.

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throwpayrollaway@reddit

Charlies hands are even like them weird German sausages that are in the fridges in Aldi.

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MerlinOfRed@reddit

By which you mean:

"I'm honestly not sure what they are, but I can say that they're not authentically German".

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CredibleSquirrel@reddit

I hope this gets the karma it clearly deserves.

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Timely_Egg_6827@reddit

The direct line of King William 1st didn't rule England that long - his eldest son ruled Normandy and then his other two sons ruled England in succession. The youngest son and second to rule lost his only son when the White Ship sunk so he made his daughter his heir and that went as well as expected. It led to a period called the Anarchy. Some connection of near-enough relation probably ruled England until about 1471 when the Plantangents took over.

They then got replaced by death in battle by the Tudors and then in 1603, there was the union of the crown when the Scottish King James 1st of England and 7th of Scotland took the throne because he was the son of Queen Elizabeth's cousin. The Stuarts were ill-fated and the Dutch Prince of Orange got invited in as dual king with his wife because he was married to the eldest daughter of King James 2nd who'd fled. He then inherited the throne when she died.

This is where the Germans come in. The Elector of Hanover had married the granddaughter of James 1st - the one who joined the crowns and he was next in line. And then until WW1, the crown was responsible for both Britain and Hanover. The little trouble in WW1 made they needed to decide which to prioritise and they choose to seperate Britain from Hanover.

Wales was conquered by the Plantangents and Ireland mainly by the Tudors though those are long stories in their own right.

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ScotchPleb@reddit

Dynasties are historically defined by the 'male line', rightly or wrongly. The current dynasty is from Victoria's husband Prince Albert, of the German Saxe-Coburg and Gotha dynasty, renamed Windsor during WW1 to make it sound more English. Queen Victoria herself was of the House of Hanover, originally German too.

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Vyzantinist@reddit

Lol that reminds me of Blackadder.

"I'm as British as Queen Victoria!"

"So your father's German, you're half German, and you married a German!"

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Zealousideal_Till683@reddit

No. I can't believe I need to tell you this, but for many years we had a queen called Elizabeth II, who was the current king's mother. The male line comes from Elizabeth's husband, Prince Philip, whose family name was Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg, which he changed to Mountbatten to sound more English.

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ScotchPleb@reddit

They changed how succession worked, & you're right that would be historically consistent but they changed the rules and its officially still House of Windsor

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OkTechnologyb@reddit (OP)

Ah, this is the answer so far that makes the most sense to me. I was thinking of ancestry a la a DNA test rather than the "male line" specifically.

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Davutto@reddit

A quick look at their family stump will show why!

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CreativeAdeptness477@reddit

The line of succession does, and earlier too depending when you start counting. A few different bloodlines though.

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Kind_Ad5566@reddit

The family name was Saxe-Coburg-Gotha until 1917 due to the anti-German sentiment when it was changed to Windsor.

The current Kings lineage is approximately 50% German.

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Downtown_Physics8853@reddit

The House of Hanover started the Germanic houses of Britain. George the 1st never really learned English very well, Victoria spoke German at home, and during WW1, the queen consort WAS German. And, FWIW, William was a Norman, who was a French-speaking Norseman (a.k.a., "Norman"), which is pretty Germanic itself.

Don't forget, Prince Phillip was nominally Greek, with family ties to the Danish crown, and with the family name of Battenberg. So, yeah, pretty German...