That was actually his idea to.do it lol
> Electrification, then. How do you feel about it?
I'm totally in with it. Everything that you hear is wrong. There's a rumour that I walked out of a board meeting at Daimler over AMG’s four-cylinder hybrid, that was me! That was my idea. I brought that to life.
EU and China emission laws.
In the EU the fine for selling a V8 C63s is around 13.000€ at the moment and it will increase a lot (really by a very big amount) in the future. It´s not a business model they can use for much longer. They just jumped off that a bit too early and tried to be first at something, but fucked it up.
I always thought they penalized the co2 emissions by building the average of the brands fleet. So I assume that isn’t correct.
Is there a specific fine for singular models?
And if so the competitors are still building engine without e-support, so how are they doing this compared to mercedes
wouldn't be shocked if EU is closing that loophole. I mean like no one buys the electric mercedes they clearly exist just to justify the co2 of the rest of the fleet.
You are theoretically 100% right, but Mercedes is over the fleet limit so every car actually just costs the official fine. They could reduce that with EVs etc. But they do not sell enough of that so they are over the limit. So simply put: Every c63s with V8 sold increases their fleet emissiom by an amount that costs them 13.000€
What emissions are even a problem with a petrol engine that would necessitate a fine? And what does paying the government a fine even do to fix the problem?
>The fine/tax to the government does nothing to reduce climate change
It disincentivizes/discourages folks from buying vehicles with higher carbon emissions, which at the same time indirectly pushes manufacturers to focus more on smaller & more efficient engines.
A large portion of it. Transport is responsible for a bout a third of all CO2 emissions and of that, around 40% are from passenger cars.
Are you trying to argue that this isn't a problem?
When I was a kid they'd tell you that a new car put cleaner air out of the tailpipe than what you were breathing in Los Angeles or Las Vegas.
You can't see the smog cloud over either city anymore, so I don't know how true it still is.
These are two different topics. One thing are air particles and they are actually reduced these days when the air goes into the engine and does the combustion process. But it still produces co2 and thats the problrm
> And what does paying the government a fine even do to fix the problem?
Pushes companies to voluntarily make changes to avoid the fine (whether those change solve or avoid the problem is a different matter). It also allows customers to the choice to continue with the behavior if they are okay with paying the fine. This is more palatable to the electorate.
The alternative to taxes to dissuade behavior is outright bans. Taxes have been found to be very successful in causing long-term habit, so they are employed when the goal is to actually change behavior. See: cigarette taxes and tobacco usage - today, only 12% of Americans smoke tobacco.
Turns out people that like big power from big German V8s don't like a 4cylinder turbo hybrid power train.
One of the great mysteries of life as to why that's the case.
I'd bet that killed most of the demand left for the thing.
Why spend the money now for the 4 cylinder when you can just wait for the TT V8 in a few years?
I saw people shell out big money over MSRP for what they thought was the last C63s with the v8 probably hoping it would be worth a lot more down the road.
They're about to get destroyed on re-sale.
I dunno probably a bit, but those last F6 caymans and boxsters are still doing okay even after they brought that configuration back to the platform. Not a perfect analogy, so we’ll see, but I don’t think it’ll be THAT brutal.
The W205 C63 and 981 Caymans/Boxster hold value especially well in europe because they aren't equipped with a OPF/GPF.
(Also the reason R8 4S prefacelift are the same value as a 4 years younger facelift)
Especially since you will always know theres the Huracan, with worse quality but great sound on the same plattform.
Lamborghini just is the smaller brand
The MSRP for the Final Edition C63S was $130k before markup. It was absurdly overpriced for what amounted to a yellow decal package and a special AMG emblem on the c pillar.
Actually they have not at all. Not a single official statement.
It was only a single headline from car&driver and then all other news pages referenced that.
Of course they haven’t released an official statement. That would be foolish. But multiple engineers told Kacher that. He doesn’t get it wrong very often.
I feel like this is the biggest middle finger in all of this . They want you to pay the same or more as the old model with a V8. They are practically begging you to buy a used w205 instead.
It's almost like people buying sports cars, especially new, want experience as much as numbers. A hybrid 4 may tuned for performance my make gobs of power but it's still a hybrid 4, not an AMG V8.
Why the fuck is it even called a 63, I know the name conventions have waned in the past, but having 4 cyl with the 6.3 designation. It's such a disservice.
Because the numbers don´t have anything to do with displacement since 25 years at mercedes and AMG. It also would not make sense. Then an A35 and A45 which are massively different would have the same name etc. and more powerful faster models have a smaller number than slower ones.
It's great, but just know that it's not the absolute perfect car. It's amazing for sound, straight line speed, and 99% of any track driving you would want to do.
For the other 1% get a GT4
Honestly, from what I have seen from reviewers, the powertrain is not the issue. Most liked it, apart from the sound department. The biggest critiques were about the weight and the chassis.
It also seems to have weirdly calibrated steering that made it uncomfortable at high speeds.
Yeah, all the reviews mention the driving dynamics and tuning suck ass, the chassis is uncommunicative and it seems mercedes spent practically no time tuning this thing. The powertrain is probably the best thing about this car
I’m a BMW guy- drive an M2- but I think the C43 is a better looking car than the M340i (in coupe form) and being a twin turbo has a lot more on the table tuning wise. I also prefer the interior. The infotainment in that car is hot garbage though.
I mean isn't the B58 in the 340i known to be one of the best tuning platforms at the moment? Struggle to see how a super turboed 2.0 i4 would have a lot more on the table tuning wise.
is the B58 ECU still locked? I remember last year, if you wanted to unlock it, you needed to send it off to the one shop in Russia/Finland that knew how to crack them
I think the newer ones are yeah. I have an early m340i before the lock so no issues. I'm not sure how hard it is but tunes seems to still be popular so I'm sure there's ways around it
I seem to recall 2020 Supras being more desirable than 2021 models (even though the 2021s had a slightly more powerful stock tune) because the 2020 ECUs were unlocked.
There’s absolutely no reason to get the C43 unless for some reason you’re a huge Mercedes fan. Plus there seems to be a big manufacturing problem right now. Huge amounts of them are having major issues.
That market applies to the C63 now too, although based on this article it doesn’t seem to be a huge number of people. I guess at that price there are better “look at me “ cars. Seems like both M and AMG are basically just lifestyle brands at this point.
The BMW facia's are starting to grow on me TBH. It's kinda like the 70's Split Bumper Camaro's and Tuna Mouth Torino's, kinda weird but for some reason I like it.
Except that Tacky people would already be looking at an M340i and/or an M3.
BMW's just look better interior wise. The Piano black look in the middle area of MB shit looks very bad even a few months after you buy it.
Exterior and Interior design can be a big reason tbh. But yea performance wise W206 sucks hard compared to the m340 and m3.
But to be fair most C43 customers seem to be really happy. Here in the mercedes sub, but also other forums.
Mercedes performance has sucked compared to BMW for basically the history of the brands. If you wanted a driver's car you bought an M3. If you wanted a straight line missile that made crazy noises and was still a comfortable cruiser, you bought a C63.
Them ditching the big engines was perhaps the worst brand move any car company has ever made as it was basically the entire value proposition of the AMG brand.
Exactly this. I owned one for almost three years. It was a $30k car wrapped around a $70k engine. The engine was the only reason to own one, the rest of the car left a lot to be desired.
They don‘t get around ditching the V8. Climate change and EU emission laws etc. Completely fuck them up. They just moved away from it too early.
Today the fine for selling a c63s with V8 in the eu is 13.000€ and this will increase by a lot in little time.
A lot of the Germans had suppliers and supply lines in Ukraine. After the war started they had huge shortages and had to hastily throw up production capacity in other places. You basically couldn't get an RS3 for the last 18 months until recently because the wiring harnesses were made in Ukraine.
I see you're getting downvoted, BUT looks can also be highly subjective.
It seems to me there are 2 camps, the "it's growing on me" for the M3 / M4 camp, and the "dear god, set it on fire & drive it off a cliff" camp.
I understand both, and I see similar divisions happening with the M2.
It's okay, just always approach from the rear and get a good set of window tint so people don't see you inside.
The M340I at least doesn't suffer from the beaver teeth if cross shopping the 43
Even though the current gen S4 is nearly at the end of its current life cycle, it was more appealing over the brand new C43.
I didn't even bother test driving one. I don't see the appeal of a 4cyl in that market when others are offering 6cyls.
> I didn't even bother test driving one.
Lol this is the third car that I've randomly seen you post about that you didn't bother test driving. Was there a car you actually test drove besides the S4?
Guess I have never seen anybody be so proud about not test driving certain cars so I remembered your last post. I will eagerly await the reveal of the next car you didn't test drive.
I bet many of these will either sell or lease at deep discounts. Just look at the EQS sedan, Mercedes is or was leasing them at incredibly cheap rates - like $400-500 a month, which is cheaper than some Model 3s. Obviously there are some EV incentives towards leasing, but Mercedes is still taking a fat loss and they will likely do so again here.
Yeah, the entire buyer base for the C63 was in it for the legendary AMG V8, not a big heavy hybrid 4 cylinder. The only people left interested in that car can't afford it.
> You can't just ignore your customers and expect good results.
I believe the same is going to happen with the Charger/Challenger EV's.
The current owners LOVE the current cars and the V8 - scoring extremely high in owner satisfaction, and they're willing to overlook flaws. You could produce it nearly as-is for the next decade and ride off into the sunset with decent sales the whole time.
Or you could turn it into yet another EV, alienate 90% of your current customer base, and pray there is an untapped audience for an EV muscle car willing to overlook Dodge's shadiness.
100%. I got my Charger for cheap V8 power but have absolutely 0 interest in EVs even if Dodge made it. Maybe some hardcore Mopar fans will buy it but I have no interest in it, it's not even on my radar. Next car is a GT350, I'm in a good spot right now so I'll enjoy these V8 machines while I can.
Which is why I will die on the hill that the hemi isn’t dead. It’s coming back or they’re making a new smaller V8. They already admitted the new charger platform was designed to allow them to fit in gas engines.
We'll see.
I'd be shocked if Dodge didn't do something to hedge their bets for their EV revolution. I'd wager 500+ HP I6 hurricane engine finds it way under the hood of the new charger early in its run.
I have the same prediction for the EV Charger and Challenger, where returning buyers are going to be very slim. The difference with those though, is like you said, an audience for EV muscle cars. I think at least they have a chance to capture the people who want to buy an EV, but want a cool car as well. I think this will capture a nice untapped market of those buyers IF it can keep a realistic price tag.
With the problem of the C63s hybrid, the only people who want it, can't afford it. A Charger EV will have a decent audience, but if that price tag is too high, its going to have a hard time selling to that market.
Very true - Acuras have been a good example of price sensitivity for years.
They're not bad cars, but for the price, they're wholly not competitive.
And this is where I think the Charger will struggle. The base Charger 340 has 455 HP for, and will cost at least $50k according to online sources. So ScatPack pricing, for ScatPack power.
Except it's not competing against itself.
I look at the Kia EV6 GT. 576 AWD HP, for $63k. That should be the target price for a loaded mid-tier "Charger 440" with 590 HP. I suspect it will be $70k+, which is going to kill sales.
So you're right, if Dodge comes out and starts an EV horsepower war in relatively affordable EV's, they'll find an audience. But traditionally, Mopars have been a bit more expensive than rivals.
Maybe the "Assipack" isn't getting the bank loans anymore that they used to. At least when you see most AMGs here, including the C63, it's always the same type of people. Other Germans will know what kind...
I always wondered if people that look down upon people leasing their expensive car, could afford the rates. Especially Germans that aren't exactly in the best economic as we speak.
It's not really looked down upon, I'd say it's actually becoming more common. It's just the type of people that lease AMGs usually.. I don't want to comment too much about it, otherwise people gonna call me names. But German people know what kind of people
It still seems odd to me when they have a modular straight 6. I know the E AMG crowd wasn't pleased with that change but I suspect it would have been better received in the C class as it would be *inline* with the competition.
Seriously. Mercedes is basically a McMansion. Gaudy, tacky, cheap and already dated as it drives out of the manufacturing plant.
This pathetic trend of slapping giant iPads all over the place has gone on for long enough.
Well a V8 won’t fit either, but there’s rumors it’s going back into the C63 by 2026 after it undergoes “minor bodywork changes”. They could have just designed it from the get go to fit a bigger engine.
That's nothing new. The 203 C55 had an elongated engine bay to fit the V8. The 204 C63 is pretty bespoke relative to the base car. It doesn't share very much with the base car e.g. it's longer, wider and has a lower roofline.
There’s a lot of precedent for that, especially within the C-class range. The 2000s C 55 AMG notably had the entire front end from the CLK 55 as that was able to fit the 5.4L V8 they used in it.
That´s not the problem. They just don´t want to put a non AMG engine in a 63. The CLE which is basically the same as the C class fits the inline 6 without a problem.
The straight 6 is not an AMG engine. It´s a merc engine focused on smoothness and efficiency. It is only used in the light AMG models and apparantly already running on it´s limit.
The 63 models all get hand built AMG engines and AMG fucked up with their eninge portfolio. They only have the straight 4 and V8. Nothing else.
Yep, sportung machines aren't for box checking.
A Casio F91-W does basically everything better than a Grand Seiko but I'm not paying more for the Casio.
Trading nearly all of the intangibles for numbers makes the entire experience feel commoditized.
That's also what I'm thinking. MB committed to 100% electric and if AMG kept chugging along they would've gotten scrutinized so they forced AMG to follow along. Still feel like they should've milked the V8 as long as possible and then go fully electric.
Remove the number one reason people buy something and it’s not a shock no one wants it. The V8 was basically the only reason you bought a C63. The M3 is a more dynamic driver, RS5 is easier to live with as a daily driver, and the C63 has the V8. With a four cylinder engine there’s quite literally no reason to buy the car.
I'm curious what Mercedes's market analysis team thought would be the reason people would buy this over the BMW M3 or the Audi RS5? Historically people went AMG cause they wanted a luxury muscle car with exhaust notes and that brute feeling a V8 delivers. If I wanted great handling or driving experience, I would just buy the M3. It also comes with an option of a stick and has a straight 6 in it that is quite good. The only thing I can think of is they thought enough people would be turned off by the pig nose to overlook the 4 cylinders and cost increase of the C63. The RS5 is has a liftback which is a huge plus point in the market since it is the only one with that feature. Not to mention it has a decent exterior look and a nice clean interior to boot. I would totally take the RS5 interior over the C63 even if the RS5 feels a bit old. The build quality is solid and I like the design a lot more.
They should fire the corpo executive that proposed this idiocity of puting a measly 4 cilinder into a legendary C63, probably one of those "inovators, disruptors".
My guess is Mercedes tried to use the higher cost as a marketing/psychological trick to convince consumers the new hybrid 4 cylinders was some special new valuable tech, because they new it would be received poorly at face value.
I didn‘t say all the extra price compared to a V8 or a M3/4 is down to that. But the powertrain simply is even more expensive than the V8 and they in general are more expensive than the 3 series even with normal engines.
They just fucked up
He's totally killing in Aston. People are talking AM seriously now: Db12, dbx707 gave a lot credibility for them. Although I wish the dbx wasn't so horrendous looking.
Been a car enthusiast for basically 23 years of my whole life. This is quite possibly the biggest fuck up in the enthusiast market I have ever seen. No one likes it and the reviews for it don’t even say redeeming qualities. The review throttle house gave for this car was quite possibly the most negative review I have ever seen them put out and Rory at auto trader although doesn’t come off as negative as throttle house he never actually said good things. His silence speaks volumes of the car. We also can’t forget the scathing first impressions that Matt at carwow had.
There’s always some camp of people who defend a controversial car but this? Haven’t seen it at all.
Mercedes couldn't even make an NA gas engine that wouldn't shit itself the first 100 miles out of warranty. If you buy one of these you'd better get it in a color that looks good under the service center lights because that's where its going to live.
When u replace the heart of the car with a little beeper... people notice...
It's also why the 981 boxster is more desirable than the 4 cylinder 718s...
I believe 718 would have been received much much better if they prioritized minimizing turbo lag, instead it was a great disappointment to many who test drove it.
I have a w204 with the m156. I don't get what they're doing moving away from what made them great in the first place.
Tone deaf move Mercedes, even if the new c63 is a technological tour de force, no one cares if it doesn't have the attitude and swagger of the older cars.
Who could have thought that person buying a 6 figure super saloon doesn't want a fuel efficient 4 cylinder hybrid with an engine that's identical to the one in an A-class, a real headscratcher here.
Anyone who genuinely buys one of these over an M3 or RS4 must be absolutely insane imo.
I think car companies in general have really underestimated how much the mainstream associates 4 cylinder with low power.
Like people act like it's just a car enthusiast thing but alot of older people that haven't kept up with car tech still pretty firmly believe that 4s are for cheap cars getting A to B because that's how used to be.
Maybe the Germans needs to reinvent the 4 cylinder in our public opinion. Audi reinvented how AWD was a sports car feature by calling it Quattro and winning competitions with it, I think.
These are going to become collector cars in about 20 years after Mercedes goes back to the 4.0 V8 as quickly as they can get the production line switched over. Like the Tahoe Hybrid of sedans.
Personally I do think the hybrid i4 is an interesting powertrain. It’s like the discount version of what’s in the AMG ONE.
But using that to replace the V8 TT was never going to work. Mercedes should have put it in the AMG A45 and marketed it as a WRC car for the road
I’m not even sure they’ll release these in the US given how bad it’s going. Order books were supposed to open this summer and it’s been crickets.
But if they do, there’s gonna be some cheap AF 13 month lease deals on these.
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