How the tables have turned
Posted by nitin_is_me@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 245 comments
*for users without internet access
Posted by nitin_is_me@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 245 comments
*for users without internet access
zoharel@reddit
You can install Windows without a terminal. You probably don't want to.
Kitoshy@reddit
And the fun part is that it is true
KlePu@reddit
Only that it's not.
I installed Windows 11 on my aunt's laptop just a week ago without internet access: no terminal needed. Merely had to use the the "legacy" setup. There's a text link at some point - easy to miss but it's there! ;)
JesusChristV@reddit
This is misleading and false
KlePu@reddit
If Jesus Christ himself says so... Sorry for reality to prove otherwise.
Real-Abrocoma-2823@reddit
When I last installed windows for dualboot I had to use "legacy" setup cause from what I understand you can't choose partitions in new one so it would destroy my Linux install but it still asked me for account. Last booted it 4 months ago but I will let it sit here until it somehow breaks or we get anticheat and loosles scaling on Linux.
Kitoshy@reddit
Doesn't that imply that UEFI won't be used?
KlePu@reddit
Errr... I don't think so? Windows registered fine without me having to input a serial, so it must've read the information from EFI I guess?
Kitoshy@reddit
Good to know.
KlePu@reddit
After the onslaught of answers to my first comment - I'm totally not sure if this is specific to Europe and/or Germany! Windows 11 keys are legally sold for <5€ (for personal use!) over here, so YMMV! \^\^
Kitoshy@reddit
I think it's an Europe thing since I've seen it in other EU countries too. But afaik in most countries were it can be done without legal consequences is not because of it being legal perse, but more because of voids in the legislation regarding software and digital products.
abbidabbi@reddit
I installed and configured w11 on my neighbor's computer last week (they've bought a new one because of the TPM nonsense, even though their "old" one as perfectly fine for browsing, writing emails and doing office work). I had to use the OOBE\bypassnro command in order to skip the M$ account requirement, even though the ethernet cable was not plugged in during setup. Claiming that none of this is necessary is simply not true.
KlePu@reddit
I've expanded my initial comment with "edit2". tl;dr: It worked on my machine.
auiotour@reddit
Can confirm being doing this shit for years, I work with Linux, windows and Unix. Most things people complain about things here they don't even bother to look up before they post.
dr_Fart_Sharting@reddit
That's the old installer. The "legacy" option was removed
KlePu@reddit
Sorry if the linked screenshot is misleading, I obviously didn't take one during just another install. Media used was 25H2, and the option was very much present (setup with the "new" installer failed in a subsequent step, couldn't find a disk to install to).
dr_Fart_Sharting@reddit
Huh. Weird. I keep trying to figure out how to do it right, and it keeps changing. In the 25H2 Pro media I downloaded, the option doesn't appear even when the computer is offline.
Lately I've found that when going with the domain account route, the installer can be tricked into doing what the user wants, a normal account.
itsbondjamesbond1@reddit
I never saw that button at all, or even that window design
KlePu@reddit
Fresh install, 25H2. Updated my comment.
Linuxologue@reddit
I'll have to rely on people's testimony - I have not installed windows in the past 4 years and that was only in a virtual machine
BeowulfRubix@reddit
Had to do it on bare metal for the first time in years. Lost a week going in circles, wondering why bloody storage drivers weren't cooperating.
Turned out that me just using dd of the iso wasn't good enough.
Damned image would boot, but not give a relevant error at the driver selection stage, even regardless of the basic OS supplied drivers being there already. Turned out you have to use Windows image burning tools (available for FOSS on Linux), or MSFT crap is missing apparently and the file structure isn't writeable from Linux or Windows after.
not_jov@reddit
all hail our lord and savior ventoy
Gborg3@reddit
Rufus worked for me too recently
not_jov@reddit
Rufus works fine if you're on Windows, but the convenience of flashing only once is just too good. And with Ventoy you can still use your usb to carry data like normal.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Does it also help you bypass the Windows restrictions like Rufus does?
not_jov@reddit
What restrictions exactly? If anything, I've never had any problem trying to boot from the Windows ISO using Ventoy.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
You know, the hardware restrictions, the TPM restriction, the inability to use a local account, those kinds of things.
not_jov@reddit
Oh interesting, never knew rufus allowed this.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Yeah, it's great! Unfortunately, on unsupported hardware you don't get feature updates so it's only supported for a few years before you need to manually intervene.
allalongthewest@reddit
In the past I ran Rufus in VMWare and just did USB passthrough. Worked like a charm.
Gborg3@reddit
I think I need to familiarize myself more with Ventoy now
skoove-@reddit
its very useful! i keep a usb with me with nixos, arch and alpine install media, and some documents + secret keys, really useful to have
not_jov@reddit
definitely worth your time :)
nicothekiller@reddit
You can also use grub on a USB. Ventoy is 1000% more convenient, but it can be hacky in some ways and doesn't always work. Using grub works more often.... as long as you are fine with troubleshooting boot issues.
No-Air-8201@reddit
Make sure to familiarize yourself with safety concerns relating to Ventoy's use of binary blobs and if you want to take that risk. Convenience-wise - it's a great tool.
throbbin___hood@reddit
Ventoy is the way!
lordfairhair@reddit
It took you a week to install windows?? Lol just goes to show even people who aren't 'good at computers' are getting into linux these days.
BeowulfRubix@reddit
LoL 40 years nix admin, so nope.
But having that spinning plate for a 30mins a day in a family machine at the end of the working day, where it turned out that the nvme and the NIC had been fried also, then add normal dd'ing being not enough.
OGigachaod@reddit
Taking a week to install Windows is 100% skill issue, it should not take more than a couple of hours to get the drivers you need.
BeowulfRubix@reddit
On the subject of your skill issue, you seem unable to understand that it wasn't a driver issue. And the muscle memory that caused the actual issue was from being an instinctive nix person and rushed.
Bye bye, kiddie winkle.
Fit_Smoke8080@reddit
What tool did you use? Every single one I have tried fails eventually.
BeowulfRubix@reddit
Ventoy
yamsyamsya@reddit
This is a lack of knowledge issue, not an OS is bad issue
BeowulfRubix@reddit
Yes, indeed. Assumptions, in haste.
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/s/kyeQ4rNqK6
MrBadTimes@reddit
I installed windows 11 on last September and I didn't need a terminal. I just used rufus to create my boot usb
Okbar370@reddit
Partially true. You can install Windows without a terminal, but you are required to use a Microsoft account. Some tools such as Ventoy or Rufus can be configured to bypass this requirement, or use the terminal.
Ill-Kitchen8083@reddit
If I recall correctly, in year 2006, I installed Ubuntu on my desktop PC without using a terminal in the installation process. Just putting the CD into the CD drive and most things happen afterwards is to click "Next" or add username/password.
Surely, after that, I had to spend quite some hours in a terminal to install some weird drivers and other package I needed.
OGigachaod@reddit
Or just use rufus.
Kitoshy@reddit
I don't know why you think it's related, but Ventoy is superior.
FlukyS@reddit
It has been true for like 20 years now
Kitoshy@reddit
That's why the difference between a Linux and a Windows user during the past 20 years is that their sense of humor isn't as good as ours.
Karma-Karma1@reddit
The idea you need a Microsoft account to get past setup was insane in of itself
PresentationFirst517@reddit
Bog video i was just watching that
nouskeys@reddit
I've never understood how the terminal is so off putting. It's all input and dialog, really. We all excel at that when we put our effort into it.
MereInterest@reddit
When my brother and I were 9 and 7, when my grandfather upgraded his computer, he gave us his old computer. As part of giving it to us, he spent a day going through the programs on the computer, how to access them, what they are useful for. Some games had shortcuts to launch them, but most were only accessible through the DOS shell. Sure, I could start "Jill of the Jungle" without using the terminal, but if I wanted to play "Lemmings", "Raptor", "Gladiator", or "Corncob 3d", I needed to go through the command line.
If 7-year-old me wanted to play video games, then I needed to use the command line. As a result, it's always seemed like a standard way to interact with computers.
nouskeys@reddit
That a cool memory lane story that resonates with me. Your grandpa sounds like he was an old school techie. I wish I had one of those, not to disparage my own.
MereInterest@reddit
Thank you, and he was a fun guy. He was a nerd about accounting in the same way that most people in /r/linux are nerds about software. He would help everybody in the family to file taxes, because it was a fun way to spend time togehter. At one point, he bought TurboTax not because he wanted to use it, but because he wanted to see how it held up to his preferred tax software.
It's been the better part of a decade since he passed away, and I still miss him.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
What was his preferred software? Is it still better?
MereInterest@reddit
It was Drake Software, and what really sold me was the customer service on it. I was filing taxes with my grandpa, and a question came up on the correct way to fill in a specific field in the software. (The details are fuzzy, and I can't remember if it was for reporting graduate fellowship income, or for HSA expense reporting.) He started picking up the phone to call Drake's customer support, but I said that I'd like to search online a bit first, to avoid getting stuck on hold. So he smiled, shrugged, and let me search around uselessly for 5-10 minutes before admitting defeat.
Calling their customer service, the phone was answered within two rings, by a human, who was able to answer our question within a few minutes. This was during daytime hours on the weekend, during the first half of April, and so I'd been expecting an hour on hold at the very best. After hanging up, my grandpa told me that during tax season, everybody up to and including the CEO would be manning the phone lines.
I haven't needed to call their customer service since then, and Drake Software is in this list of acquisitions by a private equity firm, so I can't say whether it has maintained that standard since then.
nouskeys@reddit
Quit making me jealous, but I'm sorry for your loss. Lost all mine and it sucks! He was probably an expert in his field at the time. TurboTax predated windows by a year.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
The problem is that it hasn't been standard since XP.
Max-P@reddit
People will refuse to use a terminal, but will chat for hours with an AI terminal to basically do the same thing but 100x more verbose.
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Because they can actually communicate with it.
badoop73535@reddit
But they can speak to an LLM in English. They don't need to remember specific keywords or flags.
philipwhiuk@reddit
Different people
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Because you have to know what to type. You can figure out a GUI, you can't figure out a terminal.
technologyclassroom@reddit
I love the terminal. It is direction-less at first without hints so it involves learning and research. Once you do the research, it involves character perfect typing and reading. Many people want nothing to do with those concepts.
tollbearer@reddit
as youve described, it's high investment, so there would have to be a high reward for it to be worth it, and there just isnt for most people.
technologyclassroom@reddit
The reward is high for just about everyone, but it takes some time to conceptualize.
If you can figure out the command line way to do something without interaction, you can automate it. If you can automate it, you don't have to do it manually again to get same result.
tollbearer@reddit
You can just ask chatgpt to automate it.
technologyclassroom@reddit
I prefer to not have my computer running commands that have not been reviewed by a human. I ran into a problem at work this week because someone was letting Claude run commands that they did not understand or review.
tollbearer@reddit
you can review it.
technologyclassroom@reddit
Of course people can. The problem is that many people do not. Part of it is because of the list of reasons before. You would have to read, understand the commands, and research what you did not understand.
tollbearer@reddit
you can jsut ask chat gpt to break it down
technologyclassroom@reddit
That would be a reasonable thing to do if someone were reviewing it and had trouble understanding. The problem is that isn't happening in practice. People are just vibe coding and seeing if the results match what they want without any review of the how.
tollbearer@reddit
there still egtting mroe done than they otherwise would have
technologyclassroom@reddit
I would have rather they sat doing nothing than to spend my time investigating why they did it wrong.
Real-Abrocoma-2823@reddit
I would rather trust Claude than chatGPT. I got too much brain-dead responds from ChatGPT even after correcting it multiple times and Claude understood my prompt perfectly after one correction.
dank_shit_poster69@reddit
you only need the first few chars, then mash tab for auto complete
Turtvaiz@reddit
People just aren't used to it so it's outside their comfort zone
nouskeys@reddit
I'm the same, I suppse. I trt to inproved on that that when I can.
FifteenthPen@reddit
This. I started out with DOS and Windows 3.11, so I've never had an aversion to using the CLI, and often prefer it over clicking on things. Owner of the first company I worked for was fluent in DOS and hated the (before OS X) Mac in the back office because it had no CLI.
Ancient-Weird3574@reddit
In gui you can just click next and all the options are available. In terminal you get nothing. You have to know what to type. No typos allowed. Large wall of scary text.
PlasmaFarmer@reddit
Because the average user won't learn commands. On a UI they have an option to choose from several actions or click OK or Cancel on a dialog which makes it low effort.
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
It's not intuitive (to me atleast). I prefer using the terminal and i mostly do, but i always depend on documentation or googling or chatgpt to find the right commands and parameters because i can never remember it myself.
GUI is intuitive.
nouskeys@reddit
I do like GUI too, but the terminal shouldn't be some blockage as it is seems to be. We have all the tools to determine this now with multiple devices and such.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
I think it’s perfectly reasonable that the terminal is off putting for people, windows and Mac do very well to avoid forcing people to use the terminal and it’s a lot less user friendly than a GUI. Why would a normal user spend the time to learn the terminal when they can just avoid it?
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
it is a blockage even if it doesn't seem to be to people like us. Tools and resources may be available but they are available at the cost of time and effort (sometimes financial), which for some people is heavily constrained.
Consider the average person who has no idea what an OS even is. Or what a browser is. How can they manage to use a terminal as efficiently or more than the GUI? Now also consider that the average person not only isn't interested (they also don't have to be) but also don't have the time or energy.
A user can use the GUI to accomplish their task in a couple of clicks and taps, or, spend not only days but probably weeks or months with a lot of effort to reach the same level.
Many will disagree and downvote this but it is true.
nouskeys@reddit
I agree and it may be human frailty. I can do plumbing or electrical if I set set mind and fortitude to it but I really can't bother unless I'm at odds end and I have been.
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
It's not just being "at odds end". Allocating said time and effort to computers is a sacrifice (like most things in life). Many would rather spend these resources into socialising, their career, their family, their mental and physical health, etc.
Especially considering that one can achieve the exact same goal using some UI widgets lmao.
nouskeys@reddit
OK. I'd say there is time for most in a lot of situations, but you have a point at the extremes.
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
Honestly, i don't know if i can use the words "most", "average", etc. When i use these words, i refer to large groups of people (in my community, social circle, people I've met, the elderly, etc) who fit my description. My point seems to apply to them, but maybe for your community it IS extreme.
nouskeys@reddit
Wow your circle is quite sophisticated (not derogatory). I'm among often among elderly and technicians, engineers from time to time. Family is mostly military and or police officers.
Birk@reddit
GUIs are intuitive because they present some choices that you can do and that is easy if you’re not familiar with what choices exist. This only works if there aren’t too many choices to make. If there are too many it tends to become messy and very unintuitive. We see this a lot in “expert systems”. They tend to become messy and difficult to use because there is too much, and even the things that are there are sometimes limited and doesn’t necessarily cover every possibility or combination. Hence we see a trend where most GUIs become less and less powerful, containing less and less choices, because they are “unintuitive”.
Terminal programs are different. They can have an enormous amount of optional parameters. These parameters are not immediately obvious if you are unfamiliar with the program, and you have to do some research to find the ones you need. That is unintuitive to new users. (Not as unintuitive to experienced users, since help commands and man pages are pretty standardized.) But when you have found the ones you need you can easily use the program while completely ignoring all the other options! They are simply not there. You can also very easily create small scripts that, say, automates some options that you always use and you only have to provide options you care about for that use case. This is very “intuitive” and useful for experienced users. It is very hard to create this power and flexibility in GUI programs. And the scripting/automation aspect is almost impossible.
To allow some of the same power a good GUI program should at least allow a lot of its options to be set via command line parameters. Or simply do what is very common in the UNIX/Linux world: Have a powerful terminal program with every conceivable option and then build light GUIs on top of that, that just generates commands for the terminal program. Then you really get the best of both worlds.
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
This is probably a problem with the existing UI widgets, not the concept of GUI it self. A GUI perhaps could intuitively represent "many choices" or complex concepts using a number of special widgets.
Like, a text label, a text input, a button, an image, etc. These alone can't do a lot of things. Maybe if there were stuff like, graph input/output, speech input/output, image input/output or similar and kind of widgets, one could simplify some of these problems.
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
I agree this is the best thing a program can have. The accessibility to use it either with a GUI or a CLI, and the ability to automate.
Less_Evening2337@reddit
Literally saw this comment that night. WHY DIDNT YOU LIKE IT?
Skin_Ankle684@reddit
Wait, windows needs terminal usage to be installed?
Real-Abrocoma-2823@reddit
It also needs terminal when you have any issue with it. Remember SFC and dism?
PJBonoVox@reddit
Almost never?
Real-Abrocoma-2823@reddit
I've seen some people downvote me since it somehow worked for them. Don't want to anger them again.
GhostBoosters018@reddit
Without an internet connection or to not have an online account yes
sylvester_0@reddit
I honestly can't figure out what the comment in the OP means. Between the fact that Windows has never been terminal heavy and that there are four negatives in that sentence, I'm lost.
GhostBoosters018@reddit
They mean a local account only, no Microsoft online account
sloomy-santana@reddit
fun fact: I was completely unable to install windows 11 normally on my friend's pc, because the damn thing didn't have internet drivers, and it needed internet :) Had to use a terminal. Tried to convince said friend to use linux, and the whole experience convinced him to do so later, lol
_A4_Paper_@reddit
My laptop has this problem too. I "solved" it by using phone USB Tethering but it's slow as hell
dederplicator@reddit
"Internet drivers"?
Destroyerb@reddit
You are being downvoted, but I think it is nice of you to correct them
minmidmax@reddit
They weren't wrong in the first place. They just weren't specific.
Destroyerb@reddit
That link to the internet is managed by the router itself, so all you need is a network connection to it
i.e., there is no such thing as internet drivers
ItsToxsec@reddit
I mean, if we want to be pedantic about things isn't the modem technically what handles the internet connection not the router?
primalbluewolf@reddit
Not generally, no. Modems are legacy technology for converting a digital signal to an analog one for sending over legacy telephone networks.
Modern internet, you have routers talking to routers, possibly via some sort of ethernet bridge, possibly in turn via some form of proprietary connection (Starlink comes to mind).
ItsToxsec@reddit
You still need a modem or modem adjacent technology. A modem is what allows you to read signals from your ISP
primalbluewolf@reddit
My ISP signal is ethernet frames, which ethernet routers handle quite happily. In my case its optical, XPON. The closest analogy you could use is to call the XPON media converter a "modem" but this would be a very tortured analogy.
ItsToxsec@reddit
"Modem or modem adjacent" without the XPON your local network will read your ISP as garbage
primalbluewolf@reddit
I mean at that point you might as well call a switch "modem adjacent".
ItsToxsec@reddit
No because the XPON is the ONT, without it you can't connect to your ISP. A modem works as the translation between local network to ISP, a switch doesnt do that i.e. the XPON is modem adjacent
primalbluewolf@reddit
Sure I could. Its a glorified media converter, not hard to replace. Its still just sending ethernet frames. Same sort of data that the local network uses.
Thats what a router does. It routes between networks. A modem lets you convert from ethernet, to something you can send over POTS.
Destroyerb@reddit
The modem is the device to which all the queries outside the local subnet are sent.
The modem provides access to the internet, it's the router that manages it. i.e. choose when the query needs to be passed to the modem
ItsToxsec@reddit
Which again, being pedantic, the modem is the link to the internet, not the router, the router is the link to the intranet
primalbluewolf@reddit
If you're going to be pedantic (which yay, you should) at least be correct.
The router is the router. Most home internet gateway devices are all-in-one devices which provide a variety of network services... and you dont need the router for access to the intranet. If anything you need a switch, and for IPv4, you probably want (but dont need) a dhcp server. All you need for intranet is ethernet and IP addressing inside the same subnet.
You need a router as a gateway to other networks... typically, the internet.
minmidmax@reddit
Like I said, they weren't being specific. They meant 'drivers that enable the device to connect to the internet' or, colloquially, 'internet drivers'.
We knew what they meant.
Destroyerb@reddit
You have no idea how much these terms are used interchangeably that people transfer their files through the internet even when in the same local area network
Even if we understood what they meant, the term is not correct. My point still stands as is:
There is no such thing as a internet driver
IRuleRed@reddit
im saying this to help you not continue looking stupid DB. a driver makes the network card in your machine work, in order to use said connection.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_Plug_and_Play
last paragraph on hardware identification
Destroyerb@reddit
That preinstalled bootstrap driver you are talking about would still be called a network driver
When the device is connected to the local network, it is made to connect to the internet when requesting an IP address outside its local subnet
If by "internet driver" you mean drivers downloaded from the internet, then you probably misunderstood what the comment said
IRuleRed@reddit
so you do know what a network/internet driver is; and no I was not mistaken…also there’s no such thing as a “bootstrap driver”
Destroyerb@reddit
OP is talking about drivers to make a network connection, not drivers downloaded from the internet
the_best010tom@reddit
Drivers that allow your system to use the "network interface card" to communicate with you router (in its intranet etc) or other devices that you would like to connect to via that device (just like any data interface) are in fact not fully encompassed by the the term "internet drivers" altough it can be enough in everyday communicatiom.
primalbluewolf@reddit
Well, they were. The issue was wifi drivers, it would be just as much of a problem even if they were trying to connect to a wireless LAN/intranet rather than the internet.
SannusFatAlt@reddit
wi-fi drivers, internet drivers, you do not need to be pedantic when at the end of the day the point still gets across
the installation of this software cannot be continued because of the fact that the drivers are just missing
SomePlayer22@reddit
There is a possibility that he did not understand the meaning of "intentet driver". So...
garanvor@reddit
And this is why people shy away from Linux. You should be helping a newbie, not criticizing using the incorrect terminology.
almond_sh@reddit
Yes, drivers that are necessary for using built in WiFi hardware like on laptops and most ATX motherboards. The thinkpad I use has a Ryzen 8840HS with a Qualcomm QCNFA765 wireless adaptor which is not supported in windows 11 without network drivers. Yes, can also be called internet drivers.
monocasa@reddit
You can slipstream them into the install iso with a gui tool I think, but yeah, windows is getting constrained by its model.
7mood_DxB@reddit
I swear yesterday my friend tried setting up a new Windows laptop (Huawei) and it was stuck, so he opened a terminal and restarted the OOBE
PriorityNo6268@reddit
No terminal needed : Generate autounattend.xml files for Windows 10/11
Livro404@reddit
The level of expertise one needs to make a simple local account with no internet in windows is crazy.
HengerR_@reddit
When it comes to installing Linux my experience is limited (only used 2 distros so far), however the installation process was about as hard to understand as a stick... Windows is just painful.
MrBadTimes@reddit
what windows did you install that required a terminal?
SomePlayer22@reddit
Why? Do You need to use terminal to install windows without internet?
whlthingofcandybeans@reddit
What does this mean? Pretty sure Windows had a graphical installer the last time I had to install it in a VM. You certainly didn't have to use any terminal commands.
nitin_is_me@reddit (OP)
In windows 11, it has unrealistic system requirements, and the installer won't process if your pc doesn't follow those requirements. If you don't have internet, or don't want to connect your Microsoft account when installing Windows, it won't process. Basically Microsoft forces you to link your Microsoft account with your PC or you can't install Windows 11. These have to be bypassed through CMD.
luckydotalex@reddit
Why does Microsoft do this?
poooppypoopoo@reddit
Window users have bug dick linux SHRIMPYYYYY
oldrocker99@reddit
I have had great success with Balena Etcher.
techma2019@reddit
How the turn tables indeed
Interesting_Hall_556@reddit
Normal people don't install an OS
GhostBoosters018@reddit
You're right
Exceptional people do it
Interesting_Hall_556@reddit
exceptionally unemployed
GhostBoosters018@reddit
Incorrect
Real-Abrocoma-2823@reddit
Normal people expect OS to work and keep their device usable. Windows doesn't do that. Want older PC to even boot? Install outdated windows xp or even older, on Linux you can have modern kernel on old hardware.
Interesting_Hall_556@reddit
You don't have to install an OS on older PC because you buy it preinstalled to begin with
the_abortionat0r@reddit
That's not how building a gaming PC works choom. And no gamers are not tech experts.
SithLordRising@reddit
Wait, people are installing windows?
InformalGear9638@reddit
People like getting their balls crushed with a stiletto so it's not surprising. 🤔
derangedtranssexual@reddit
I just wanna play video games without much hassle so I installed windows
GhostBoosters018@reddit
I just want to use my PC without much hassle so I installed Mint
Why are you in this sub then
derangedtranssexual@reddit
I have fedora on my laptop, Debian on my server and windows 11 on my gaming PC.
Real-Abrocoma-2823@reddit
I have endeavourOS on my laptop, CachyOS on my gaming PC/server, android on my phones, and bunch of Unix and BSD(so also Unix) devices (PS4, router and anything else with OS). Everything is *nix and it works, no need for proprietary bloatware.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
Can you CatchyOS gaming PC run Fortnite?
Real-Abrocoma-2823@reddit
It can. Easy anticheat works on Linux so there is no reason it wouldn't but epic games got paid by Microsoft to disable option in anticheat that allows Linux. That's why I don't use windows often, I dualboot for fortnite but I last booted windows about 4 months ago. The more people stop using windows and switch to Linux the faster we will get companies to stop giving us lies about how most Linux players are cheaters.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
So there is a need for proprietary bloatware then
Real-Abrocoma-2823@reddit
And that's entirely epic fault.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
So? Idc who’s fault it is I just wanna play games the easiest way possible
Real-Abrocoma-2823@reddit
Then play. I'm just saying that we need to wait just a little more to get it on Linux.
dr_Fart_Sharting@reddit
Yes, and when I do, I'm getting paid.
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
...yes?
HeyKid_HelpComputer@reddit
They probably are just buying devices with Windows installed. I would reckon 90% of modern PC users aren't installing any OS.
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
Not initially but a lot do later on when they upgrade or as they say "clean it up"
MelioraXI@reddit
Since when? Isn't Windows still using their wizard installer?
w2qw@reddit
I think they are talking about installing without a Microsoft account.
tenchigaeshi@reddit
Just tick a box in Rufus, you don't need a terminal.
Real-Abrocoma-2823@reddit
Rufus isn't made by Microsoft. You shouldn't need terminal or 3rd party tools to do this.
tenchigaeshi@reddit
It's not made by any of the Linux distros either but guess what most people on Windows use to put a Linux iso on a USB drive. Yeah you shouldn't have to but it's absolutely trivial to get around using a popular tool that many people use to burn the iso anyway.
w2qw@reddit
I'll just stick to Arch
MelioraXI@reddit
You can't anymore? Granted I haven't installed Windows since the W10 days and you could just use a local account.
ThrowAway233223@reddit
On the consumer/home version, not without bypasses that often require opening the terminal and MS is actively fighting people on this rather than listening to their consumers. MS is obsessively persistent on pushing certain "features" to the point that they are pushing away some of their consumers.
120mmbarrage@reddit
You still can, this is just for the consumer iso/home version. I believe the business version/Pro still has domain join where you can create an offline account. Though it's always best to create a customized installation when installing Windows so you can automatically create an account when creating the bootable drive.
MelioraXI@reddit
I used to make my own ISOs with Microwin (i think it was called) but I assume these things become more sophisticated and complex back a decade ago.
120mmbarrage@reddit
Yeah, without having to modify the iso, you create an unattend.xml file and with that you can do all sorts of stuff like removing requirements, auto creating accounts, and stuff like that without actually gutting out services and features. It's pretty easy to do. There's a 3rd party website someone created that helps you create one, so that's pretty nifty especially now.
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
You can't install Windows with a local account using their shitzard installer. While it is a joke, one could say that it is the only way to install Windows if you need a local account.
MelioraXI@reddit
That is pretty shitty indeed. TIL.
xAdakis@reddit
I mean. . .define "install".
You can very easily create an image of a fully installed Windows OS and just plug and play into almost any machine without a terminal. You can even have them pre-activated using special keys and not need an internet connection to use them.
That is pretty much what all headless bootable linux mediums are anyway, just a pre-constructed image of a fully functional linux system that is loaded when you boot the medium.
Am I wrong?
Real-Abrocoma-2823@reddit
You also can do network boot on Linux, but you can't install windows with local account the normal way without terminal.
the_abortionat0r@reddit
Nice goal posts moving. "Windows is so easy all you have to do is way more stuff than you need to with Linux!".
Thanks for the clown show, a real treat.
TheFredCain@reddit
Someone needs to inform ChatGPT because it seems the default answer for literally any question all these new Linux users have somehow needlessly involves the terminal. It's completely bonkers!
Craftkorb@reddit
A solution through the terminal is oftentimes valid across distributions and desktop environments. I can tell you how to configure something in KDE, but that doesn't help you when you're on Gnome. There's a place for both "styles" of tutorials.
Maccer_@reddit
However everything falls apart when you suggest installing a distro-specific package to solve the issue. Then the user is asked to install 30 dependencies +2GB of random libraries. They will just do it, but now you have created a time bomb waiting to explode (break on the next update cause of dependencies).
Real-Abrocoma-2823@reddit
Arch kind of solves that by having all packages you could want, but CachyOS makes it easier to install.
TheFredCain@reddit
I saw someone the other day trying to trying to build GIMP from source because they thought that was the way to do it. They had no clue about their package manager and were following AI instructions to do it.
GhostBoosters018@reddit
Terminal good
Terminal solutions seem to never work on Windows. And GUI solutions seem to never work on Windows.
On Linux GUI solutions work. Sometimes there isn't a GUI solution and the terminal solution works.
E.g. I didn't have a mono output in the mint settings so I found a script that created the mono output. I needed it because I was watching a video where the creator had the audio only playing on the right headphone. It was easy and fast.
TheFredCain@reddit
You can easily do that in the Audio settings right from the speaker icon icon in the systray.
GhostBoosters018@reddit
Not at the time otherwise I would have done that of course. Yes I looked in the GUI obviously.
FurySh0ck@reddit
Not only that it unnecessarily insists on the cli, it spits out misinformation constantly.
I recently needed to install VMware on a machine with newer kernel than the supported one, and dear chat gave me so many useless commands and unrelated packages to install.
I ended up succeeding by almost completely ignoring it and going with common sense and prior knowledge - and besides 1 package everything was done via GUI
TheFredCain@reddit
Yes, it's a huge problem.
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
Someone needs to stop using ChatGPT. I mean, i use it but i would never use it to configure or install an OS unless i aim for destruction.
TheFredCain@reddit
I'm seeing a frightening number of new users with broken systems from doing things like trying to compile programs from source when they are one click away in the distro's package manager. And gamers who have no desire at all to know how linux works and just want a system with Steam working using Arch as their first exposure. Madness.
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
Damn who would attempt to compile a program 😭 I can do it but even i never do it.
miggaz_elquez@reddit
It can happen when you want to use a program that isn't packaged on your distribution.
Soft-Butterfly7532@reddit
The answer in Windows needlessly involves the GUI though. How is that better?
TheFredCain@reddit
Because many, many times they are doing things in the terminal like downloading and manually installing apps that are available in the package manager because ChatGPT told them that's how you install things. We're not talking "sudo apt install kdenlive" we're talking about installing a million dev packages, downloading source with wget and attempting to build it simply because ChatGPT made it seem like that's the most reasonable way to do things. Somebody with zero Linux experience likely can't even come up with a good prompt to begin with.
Soft-Butterfly7532@reddit
It sounds like your complaint is that it involves needless terminal commands, not that it needlessly involves the terminal.
You seemed to be suggesting the needlessness was with using the terminal itself.
TheFredCain@reddit
Right, but it sort of would be a good rule for new users to avoid any tutorials/instructions that involve the terminal or outside sources/debs until they have exhausted all the "official" resources. I mean there are reasons things aren't in the repos. It means Debian has not approved it, Ubuntu hasn't approved it and Mint hasn't approved it. That should be a big red flag saying "this isn't normal."
Same as Windows in that regard really, messing around in the registry, the command prompt or sketchy exe files should give you pause. But people have heard so much weird FUD about Linux being so hard that they may think those kinds of things are normal and necessary for everyday tasks when in reality they are more of a last resort.
Soft-Butterfly7532@reddit
I would say it's precisely new users who should be using the terminal.
They are completely normal for everyday tasks.
commenterzero@reddit
Okay. I just informed chatgpt and it says we're good now.
TheFredCain@reddit
I'll check r/linux4noobs tomorrow and let you know if it's time to pull the plug on that bastard.
sudo_and_fedora@reddit
Even with internet connection u can't install win11 without using diskpart in terminal, cause it is not able to label existing partitions with letters correctly, cause it gives letter C: to existing partition, even if u want it on new partition. True story.
Kobymaru376@reddit
Caveat being that the vast majority of windows installs were not installed by their users, but bought pre installed on their device.
yawn_brendan@reddit
This is true but installing windows from scratch is still a pretty core usecase due to SSDs being a component that's expected to fail.
My SSD that had a Windows installation failed and it took me many many hours to figure out how to get it reinstalled. The tools are completely fucking broken.
The upshot of this is that installing the OS is not something you can expect an average user to do, which means people have to take it to a shop, which REALLY means people are just gonna buy new computers a lot of the time, which means this is a huge source of e-waste.
Meanwhile, installing MacOS and most Linux distros is basically foolproof.
VanCardboardbox@reddit
I am clearly not understanding this post because it is reading to me like OP's Windows system drive died and he did not know how to install Windows to a new SSD even after hours of working at it.
Windows 11 install on a machine with access to internet is dead easy, having done so several times now. I myself do not like the must-be-connected and must-use-an-MS-account conditions, but most Win users do not care and this is how most users will install.
While I am very happy to be using Linux on my main rig, I manage Windows PCs for family members and nothing about it is hard.
boomerangchampion@reddit
You can't even set up W11 without an internet connection, you have to run a command to bypass the Connect to WiFi step.
I had to drive to my mother's house to do it last week.
DonaldLucas@reddit
There's an script called autounattended that allows you to skip the internet too.
SannusFatAlt@reddit
and you think that this persons mom will be able to run a script and go through the installation instructions... right.
DonaldLucas@reddit
Not the mom, but the person that will install windows on her computer.
oyMarcel@reddit
Unattended setups have existed since the 95 era
ifngdyida@reddit
You can in ltsc subscription
the_abortionat0r@reddit
Pay extra for basic features!! Count me in !!!
bushs-left-shoe@reddit
And Microsoft is likely going to remove the bypass mechanism from the OOBE >:/
GhostBoosters018@reddit
That doesn't relate to the post
BananaUniverse@reddit
Which is stupid because of manufacturer bloat. Best do a fresh reinstall even for a new pc.
NordschleifeLover@reddit
It's even worse on the secondary market. I sold a few of my computers over the years. It always amazed me how people wanted me to install Windows for them. I could put anything there, leave a backdoor, and they would never know. I'd definitely wipe the disk and install the system myself for that reason.
The_Relaxed_Flow@reddit
You know well that the average joe doesn’t know how to (re)install Windows on a computer
Barafu@reddit
If you wiped the drive, maybe people just want to have the PC bootable out of the box? If I ever get to selling a whole PC, I'd install some enterprise desktop like Debian or Alma, just so the buyer can see it boot.
rekoiln@reddit
Installing Windows has become really laborious.
After the install you have to navigate through like 10 pages of offers for office 365, offers for free month of office, offer for game pass, phone link, cloud sync settings etc etc.. When you are done, you are greeted by bloat and other garbage you have to start uninstalling.
When you are done that, you need to use ShutUp10 (or equivalent) software to really disable all the telemetry crap and now you are finally ready to use your PC.
A lot of this can be done beforehand with autounattended.xml and such, but like I said, it crazy how much legwork you need to do just to have a fucking OS in a clean state and not be a glorified thin client.
Evol_Etah@reddit
True. I heavily use windows, so I activated all their stuff. And I genuinely use their bloat.
But I also use shutup10 and have my autounattended.xml.
Just in case. Not that I use them.
For me! Personally great. Love Microsoft features. But for others I know it's hard. I pay my way out.
But setting up a local profile for my mom, and the set-up keeps coming. Like dude. I just switched to a family plan, but still.
Jesus it's a lot.
Destroyerb@reddit
Clean the iso with Tiny11 builder first, then get rid of the other crap while writing it with Rufus
Then maybe you should be able to use it right after installation
Still, this counts as extra steps and can only be performed on Windows itself, so indeed a pretty bad experience
DrierFish@reddit
lol just run a Fresh Start from Intune.
Barafu@reddit
Trick: if you do not have a prepared image and install from the original one - during installation in the list of countries choose "Worldwide". It makes it skip on most offices and copilots. You can fix the country in Ms Store settings after the installation.
kalzEOS@reddit
For now. Later on, there won't even be a terminal option
CelebsinLeotardMOD@reddit
Never thought I’d become a full-time Linux user… but here we are 😅
So honestly, if someone told me back in 2004 or even 2012 that I’d end up being a full-time Linux user and a Windows hater, I’d have laughed in their face. Back then, I didn’t even know what Linux was - it was like some alien word from a tech forum. I eventually stumbled upon it years later, but man… that first impression? Rough. The installer confused the hell out of me, and I gave up pretty quick.
Fast forward to 2020, during the COVID lockdown. I was home, bored, done with my chores, and decided to chill with an old DVD movie. I pop the disc into my ancient desktop - running Windows 10 - and… it barely moved. The movie lagged, the mouse crawled like a sloth, and even typing was a nightmare.
Why? Because I was dumb enough to believe Microsoft’s “Windows 10 brings new life to old PCs” marketing BS. My rig was a 32-bit Intel Pentium (2002) with 1GB of RAM, and I thought upgrading from Windows 7 to Windows 10 (and later bumping it to 4GB RAM) would magically fix everything. Spoiler alert: it didn’t. It made it worse. The thing turned into a toaster that could barely open Notepad.
Out of desperation, I started Googling:
The first link that popped up was from XDA Developers - an article listing lightweight Linux distros for low-spec machines. It was super detailed, with screenshots and system requirements. That’s where I first met my savior: Linux Lite 5.0 (Emerald).
I downloaded the ISO, made a bootable USB, and installed it… and holy hell, it was like giving CPR to my dead PC. The thing booted faster, ran smoother, and actually felt usable. Even on an old HDD, it felt like a new machine.
Sure, the first week was a pain - I went in expecting Windows and got a completely different world. But curiosity kicked in. I started learning how to install and remove software, explored package managers, and discovered open-source alternatives for everything I used on Windows - editors, browsers, DVD tools, office apps, you name it.
Before I knew it, I wasn’t just using Linux - I was loving it. I wiped Windows completely and never looked back.
Big shoutout to XDA Developers for pointing me in the right direction, and to the folks behind Linux Lite 5.0 (Emerald) — my first Linux distro that opened the door to this awesome world.
InformalGear9638@reddit
People install Windows because they like being dominated with a ball gag in their mouth. 😊
the_abortionat0r@reddit
I don't think they like it, that's simply just what ends up happening.
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
Touch grass..
almond_sh@reddit
well well well... how the turntables...
Tmhc666@reddit
vro watches bog 💀💀🥀
mitchallen-man@reddit
I had to tinker around in BIOS just to upgrade to Windows 11. It was easier just to install Linux Mint from scratch.
PBJellyChickenTunaSW@reddit
Did the rufus method break?
sometimes_point@reddit
no i did it recently
DarthZiplock@reddit
lol yup. Installing Fedora was the easiest and fastest OS setup I’ve ever done.
If memory serves, installing Mint might be easier and faster still.
IIllIlllIllIIIlllllI@reddit
Redhat's GUI installer is 26 years old but I'll completely pretend to forget that and jork it with the fellas if you guys want.
Unique_Low_1077@reddit
How the turns have tabled
StrainWise6573@reddit
how the turntables
AdSpecific4185@reddit
🙂
Nearby_Astronomer310@reddit
🙂
kinleyd@reddit
Correction! You mean 'How the turn tables!'