CommuteAir 4339 Runway Excursion Preliminary Report
Posted by JediPenis_69@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 192 comments
Preliminary report for the excursion in ROA back in September. Not a good look for the captain…
https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/546744
gosquawkyourself@reddit
Captain is figgity-fucked
TooLow_TeRrAiN_@reddit
But but what about my flow to UA???
MeatServo1@reddit
Just bought another 5-10 years at C5.
JediPenis_69@reddit (OP)
I’d be shocked if they don’t fire him for this. His career is over. Maybe some 134.5 operation will hire him.
Commercial_Total_332@reddit
*Her career
PayOk8052@reddit
Why is everyone saying “him” voice on the radio is a female, assuming she was FO? Have the pilots names been released or leaked?
MiniTab@reddit
They better fire him.
We all make mistakes, I sure as hell have made my share. But ignoring two GA calls? WTAF. We don’t want you here.
Rev-777@reddit
He's an ALPA pilot. More training, back to the line.
ThatLooksRight@reddit
South Florida, here we come!
ApatheticSkyentist@reddit
My job went away during Covid and the first company to call was a 135 operator out of For Lauderdale. I needed to feed my family so off I went...
My god, I lasted about 2 months. I was pilot #6 to quite in that time frame. It was an absolute dumpster fire of dubious legality, dubious mx, and all capped off by an overtly sexist and racist Director of Ops.
x4457@reddit
Dubious legality and maintenance sounds like one of the better ones.
No-Series-3997@reddit
Every time an EMAS sings, a Western Global pilot gets his wings
sprulz@reddit
Deliberately ignoring a GA call probably means his 121 career is over
Rev-777@reddit
He's an ALPA pilot. More training, back to the line.
bottomfeeder52@reddit
two GA calls
ApatheticSkyentist@reddit
I'm sure there's a lovely 134.5 operator out there who needs someone.
sprulz@reddit
Oh yeah, he’ll find his feet somewhere on 36th St. soon enough
554TangoAlpha@reddit
Enjoy south Florida!
c402c@reddit
More like career.
mild-blue-yonder@reddit
Yours is probably improved
shonan__pilot@reddit
Oopsie woopsies, somebody just did a fucky wucky!
BitterMojo@reddit
Time for the captain to find a real estate agent in Miami.
AnythingNo4588@reddit
They can’t drive taxis how can the fly a plane ?
Turbulent-Mud-5320@reddit
2 Go around calls from the FO
bhalter80@reddit
Is there a way for the FO to force to GA at that point? It may be worse to have confusion in the cockpit over who's PF at low altitude.
Significant_Map6670@reddit
Yeah, there is. It’s “I have control, going around”. And then you initiate the go-around. Sure, the PIC/AC/asshole in the left seat has final authority but if you’re being put into an obviously dangerous situation you’ve got a vote as a FO. If you see traffic and the AC who is PF doesn’t see it are you just going to let the plane plow onto that traffic?
ScathedRuins@reddit
this seems like the scenario for an interview question.. I haven't gotten to that stage yet so idk how to answer it, but wouldn't that lead to other issues later on? conflict with captain, reprimand from the company, etc? curious how this is handled. Obviously I'm not going to let a captain fly me into the ground "because they're PIC after all", but i'm also not going to undermine them for some minor rule breaking like going 270 KIAS when under 10k' (or should I?).
Where do I draw that line as an FO?
!remindMe 1 year when I've done MCC maybe I can answer this
clearingmyprop@reddit
270 KIAS below 10K is a pretty significant fuck up believe it or not. Not huge but you have to be behind the airplane to do it. Airlines have thing like FOQA that track all of your data and can see if you were being negligent or not. I would 100% say something at like 260 below 10K. At 270 knots I’m reaching up dialing it back to 250 to explain I don’t feel like talking to the chief pilot anytime soon and the CA still has an issue than there’s nothing a little bid avoid can’t fix.
ScathedRuins@reddit
ah, gotcha. sorry I was trying to think of a conscious violation that wasn't "egregious" but that was the first which came to mind. I feel like I've definitely read anecdotes on here about people purposely violating that restriction to get home faster because "ATC can't see IAS"
K5LAR24@reddit
Even Southwest Airlines, a notably time sensitive airline, abides by the speed restrictions below 10,000. They do however have no qualms staying at 250kts until short final.
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bhalter80@reddit
This seems like a great setup for a CRM discussion, I can see the FO needing to be more assertive by the 3rd GA command but I can also see not wanting to turn what was a benign runway excursion into EMAS into a much bigger problem by adding power to GA without enough runway
aye246@reddit
The way the report is written makes it sound like they may not have even touched down by the runway midpoint (which is apparently when the FO’s second GA call came out), or perhaps had maybe just touched down—so have to think they were carrying enough speed to get off the ground again after a few seconds of TOGO power.
bhalter80@reddit
I give the FO a lot of credit for calling for the GA but from the outside throwing popcorn I feel like CRM empowered him to take a lot more decisive action in light of a CA who was unresponsive
ljthefa@reddit
I haven't been in the situation but what I heard that I liked. Make the radio call.
"Commute Air 123 going around"
shonan__pilot@reddit
What the hell man, this is ass level CRM. WTF was going on in there?
aye246@reddit
Omg can’t imagine that poor FO, halfway down the runway without TR engaged, still not touched down yet (my assumption based on the wording of the report but not specifically called out? begging for an obvious go-round and having the captain ignore you. Being an avid air accident investigations report reader I would have had flashes of the AA MD-80 at Little Rock going through my head
burningtowns@reddit
Crazy what happens when a macho HA shows up.
FyrPilot86@reddit
F O is quietly going through an upgrade class right now
ArtichokeHot5239@reddit
SHE.......not He
SHE also went quiet whilst sitting in the EMAS....SHE did not relay anything about being in the EMAS until asked.
The FO also asked her to go around 3 times....SHE ignored it.
pilot_1999@reddit
The SHE was the FO………. Captain was a dude
sillysyly@reddit
The report states that the communication button was turned off immediately after being in the EMAS likely the reason why comms were quite. It doesn't matter what gender the flight crew is either the Captain is a absolute moron and made a career ending decision to ignore multiple calls for a go around with the severe case of "get home itis"
AdventurousTravel422@reddit
do anyone know where to get the cvr audio ?
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
To all the FOs here, if captain refuses to go around after two calls, it's time to take things into your own hands and take over.
plicpriest@reddit
Here is a trick for FOs in this situation- just call the tower and announce you’re going around. Make sure your CA hears you do it. After you do land at the least contact ProStans and get their guidance for next steps.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
As well as "I have control, go around" and push thrust levers forward. Captain would have to be absolutely insane to try to wrestle the controls back and try to land.
ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit
Use “CUS” words as well. Those are supposed to connect to crm training
Immediate_Cut7658@reddit
Cuss words? You mean like "Go around you fucking vegetable"?
plicpriest@reddit
That is an option, however it carries a lot of risk. This should be a last resort, and only if it’s clear that a serious accident is probable. Furthermore, even if successfully done, there could be serious consequences on the company end. In other words, an FO had better be 100% blameless or else they stand to face some unsavory consequences. That’s a lot to consider in the heat of the moment.
Though this incident is serious, no injuries and the aircraft just has minor damage. Now imagine trying to take the controls from a captain low to the ground and he doesn’t willingly relinquish controls. Gotta ask if it’s worth it?
sunfishtommy@reddit
Also people who are not familiar with the airport dont realize how serious a low altitude go around to runway 34 in KROA is. There is a giant mountain at the end of the runway. You have to execute an immediate left turn while climbing. You will likely be at a low airspeed and high bank angle throughout the turn if you executed it half way down the runway in the flair like this scenario. That would be a very difficult maneuver to conduct while wrestling controls from a captain. The FO made the right decision here.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
You bring up some very good points, the captain obviously played fast and loose here. Before the landing itself they were telling the FO not to get data for wet numbers on descent because it wasn't raining right then and then having the FO get landing date during an ILS in significant weather. 8 also doubt they were appropriately prepared for the ILS or what the go around would entail in general.
They also only had a 200 ft margin over the required length, granted that does have a safety margin as well,
I think you're getting downvoted because there was more the FO could have done, such as declare the go around to tower. That said, the FO's career will survive this.
I also wonder if the FO is newer and whether the CA was a lifer.
Flymia@reddit
My question, would the airline have seen diverting based on 200ft a bad call? I am no a pilot, but if I am seeing oh look we have 200ft of margin, maybe diverting should have been the call right there.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
There's an additional margin of 20% and an assumption of landing in the touchdown zone (not threshold) for airline distance requirements. It's perfectly safe to land with 200' or else from the calculated numbers because of that but you can't mess around if you float or otherwise will be landing long.
Junior-Special5159@reddit
do you have to land in the touchdown zone or can you aim closer to the numbers in this case for additional margin?
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
Part 121 you're not generally supposed to go below the glidepath. The danger there is landing short, especially as you get to larger aircraft. There is a caveat to the glidepath though.
It's also important to know what the PAPI is indexed for. The PAPI will be set for the eye height of the largest aircraft that is expected to normally use a given runway. Take an airport like Atlanta or Seattle and that's going to be a widebody, it'll still be a 3:1, but it'll cross the threshold higher and actually be located farther down the runway to account for a larger aircraft. This could be almost 1500 ft down the runway in some cases likewise, if the largest aircraft is an RJ it'll be closer to right at the 1000 ft markers. If you're in a smaller aircraft than the PAPI is indexed for you can actually expect to see 3 red on the PAPI while on the ILS glideslope. This is even true in say a 737 at an airport that sees widebody aircraft.
This is also a big reason you will see notes that the PAPI and ILS glidepath are not coincident.
A big problem with trying to land shorter (above the trap of using the PAPI to judge how much lower you can go) is that it tends to make your approach unstable. Usually pilots don't adjust power so they gain speed and add float distance and don't really gain anything.
Really, during normal operations, the big thing to take away when numbers are tight like that isn't to give yourself more buffer by trying to land earlier than the touchdown zone so much as be more primed for a go around if something doesn't look right.
Junior-Special5159@reddit
so even with reduced runway environments you’re still trying to hit the 1000 footers?
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
Yes.
No-Series-3997@reddit
Generally no. You'd be asked to justify your decision, but if you gave a remotely coherent answer regarding an attitude of safety you wouldn't face any action.
prex10@reddit
The CA I'll assume knew in the back of his head most likely "wet numbers = we can't land in ROA".
ROA is a lot like EYW. You'll only get acceptable numbers if you run the data with dry. Being a C5 dude, they've likely been in and out of there enough to know that.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
That's very possible.... Of course then they still tried to land in heavy rain.
Personally if the weather will be questionable I'll try to get data for worst case and if that doesn't return good numbers step up until I get them and then make note of what is required. My current company provides all landing condition data for whichever configuration you have selected, which makes it much more straightforward.
prex10@reddit
Get there itis. They were late, he "had" what he wanted to see with his 5/5/5 numbers.
Having deplaned twice for mx, probably had already made a jackass of themself twice, making a gate house PA. Now in the back of your mind you're thinking about doing a go around and diverting. And then having to make another jackass of yourself. That's a real weight for a captain after what they already went through. Seemingly too much for them.
I don't think it's an acceptable excuse, but I bet that's what will be looked into.
I'm sure everyone whoever sat inside of a private pilot ground school had an instructor give them a scenario like that "So what are YOU gonna do when the customer WANTS.... and it's xyz out???"
Flymia@reddit
As I passenger I don't want my captain making decisions on whether passengers will be upset or not..
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
Not discrediting your points. It is a good one to discuss. However, at the end of the day, these are two highly trained professionals that are 100% capable of executing a climbing left turn on a published missed approach procedure. The go around here was the safer option. Going off the end of the runway to avoid a complicated missed approach procedure is not an acceptable option in any scenario.
sunfishtommy@reddit
Yea but the problem is you don't know how the captain is going to respond to you attempting take the controls in the middle of the flare. If the crew are on the same page and working together than yes the climbing left turn is 100% simple maneuver that any 121 pilot is capable of. But its obvious these two pilots were not on the same page.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
I also don’t know what’s going to happen if we go off the end of the runway. In hindsight we can look back and say EMAS saved the day and nobody died. But, if the go around wasn’t a safer maneuver it wouldn’t be required by every 121 FOM out there in this situation.
sunfishtommy@reddit
A go around would have been the safest maneuver. The FO called for it twice. But a low altitude fight over the controls is unsafe even if you are not facing a mountain. Now is that fight over the controls more unsafe than the long landing? Thats the point of what im trying to say. A go around would have been the best course of action but the captain did not respond to that call from the FO.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
A long landing is absolutely more unsafe. This time it worked out. But that’s only because of EMAS.
f1racer328@reddit
Probably would have been a cakewalk of a go around during the first go around call.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
If the captain hasn't responded to two calls prompting for go-around, and aircraft is clearly in an undesired state (long landing/unstable), FO must consider captain to be at least temporarily incapacitated and take over. Much easier to deal with the consequences if you're still alive, and any reasonable airline will back the FO up any day of the week, if captain didn't want to go around after two calls to do so.
The sole reason for that being there was EMAS at the end of that runway. Now imagine there wasn't... We'll have to wait for the final report, but given the tracks, I'd imagine the aircraft crossed the runway end at quite a significant ground speed.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
While I do fully agree with you, I feel like the power dynamic on the flight deck was likely incredibly imbalanced.
So while I won't argue that the FO probably should have done more, they were also put into a very difficult situation.
SupportGold7583@reddit
But we can’t blame the FO for this one. Yes the FO could’ve taken controls but we don’t physically practice that in training. They did what they were trained to do by calling a go around…Twice.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Yes we do
Any CATII or CATIII capable aircraft we practice taking controls if the PF is not respond to the go around call
SupportGold7583@reddit
Not sure your airline but I’ve never had that training with taking controls. Seems pretty cool though
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
You’ve never done pilot incapacitation training scenarios in the sim?
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Yeah something’s not adding up. Pretty sure everyone has to do pilot incapacitation training
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
I never did it until I flew at an airline that had Cat II approaches, I could see there being smaller operators they still don't do it.
In this case the captain obviously wasn't incapacitated, just a reckless idiot, not quite the same. While you may want to say it's functionally the same, it is a bit different when you look at it from a power dynamic perspective.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
But in the moment you don’t know if they’re not incapacitated. You only know they aren’t responding to you so you treat it as them being incapacitated
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
The cat II and III training deals with a lack of response, not an affirmative refusal.
someFAsarecrazy@reddit
I don’t have the full CVR obviously but there’s a difference between incapacitation and a CA actively saying “No” when you say Go around.
We don’t have all the information but there’s a very good chance he wasn’t passive.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
A common interview question is “what would you do if you call a GA and the CA refuses”.
Hint: the correct answer is to say you grab the controls. Maybe one day you’ll have the opportunity to interview at an airline that’s not a regional
someFAsarecrazy@reddit
Lmao, I’m at a legacy and have done interview prep on that exact question.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Short memory then?
someFAsarecrazy@reddit
Nope, the interview prep guys explicitly tell you not to use the grab the controls answer.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Now you’re just making stuff up lol
Thanks for the laugh.
someFAsarecrazy@reddit
Whatever man, don’t give a shit what you think
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
But you’re at a Legacy! Everyone should respect you
lmFairlyLocal@reddit
I wouldn't take their comments as blame, really, but as a warning/lesson to other FOs who may experience the same with a large cockpit gradient.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
Thank you, that's exactly my point. When there is a large gradient like that and you have a reckless captain it is real easy to stay in the range of "I'm not flying with them again after this trip." And in a trip specific normalization of deviance and you can very easily slowly let it get worse and worse. In this case the FO did call a go around twice and the captain flat out refused. This is after not wanting landing numbers for a wet runway and then having the FO get numbers DURING AN ILS. I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that there were other things like this happening during the trip.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
No doubt, an incredibly tough situation for the FO to handle.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
I think it's not really fair to equate it to pilot incapacitation, as he obviously wasn't. I posted it in a response deeper in as well, but there's a difference between incapacitation and a pilot who's reckless. When an FO is flying with a captain like that, there's a fine line between when you should discuss it later and bring in pro stans etc and taking action then and there.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
If you call go-around twice, and captain doesn’t respond (tunnel vision, fixation on landing, etc.), they’re effectively incapacitated at that point.
duaIinput@reddit
I’m not gonna dig it out of my FOM, but if I recall the other airlines I worked at did it the same way; at this point it directs you to assume that the other pilot is incapacitated and you need to take control.
No-Series-3997@reddit
Sure, but saying "just take the controls from the Captain" is an easy thing to say after the fact for someone who's never had to do it before. Doing that at low altitude may just fuck you over even more if the other guy is determined enough. The tower call is probably the best way to go about it, because either this result is gonna happen anyway or the other guy is finally going to realize he has zero remaining options.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
Agreed. Make the tower call, they will generally reply with the “Go around, [instructions].”
That can sometimes be enough to take the other guy out of his tunnel vision. Sometimes not, but if he’s still not going around I’m going to at least be trying to take the airplane from him.
The idea that an FO can’t take the airplane from the CA but the CA can take the airplane from the FO is pre-modern CRM. I say that as a CA. Being a CA does not make you invincible.
jedensuscg@reddit
I think they mean physically taking the controls vs "it's rude" or something can be hard.
That captaina mind was already off somewhere or was so focused on landing he completely checked out done everything around him. Trying to take the controls could have caused him to fight, even briefly, say if you tried to pitch for a GA and be insticntlivly, not realizing what was happening, pushed if forward again, of you pushed throttles forward but were unable to arrest the descent from him before he put it on the runway and now you are trying to remove that extra energy you must put in.
Short of a neck strike or covering his eyes, he might not have even realized you said GA or that it was you trying to take the controls rather than the plane itself figgti him.
Not saying he was that out of it, but the report ju said he continued, never said he verbally acknowledged the GA call so it sounds like it was just him and that runway in his brain.
graysongymguy@reddit
I wouldn't bother with Pro Standards. They have no teeth. Ignoring a commanded go around is dangerous and shows blantant disregard for CRM. Go to the Chief Pilot composed, factual, and firm.
Sad-Improvement-2031@reddit
This exact situation was given to me during my regional interview, and the interviewer told me about this trick afterwards. Its stuck with me very well and I hope I never have to use it.
airbusman5514@reddit
YX? Got the same scenario in my cadet interview
Sad-Improvement-2031@reddit
Negative AA WO. To be more precise this was a cadet interview as well.
JPAV8R@reddit
This is the way. The captain will feel foolish landing the craft after they called tower to announce a go-around. I’d maybe give him a 1-2 Mississippi before then snatching controls which when that low and slow can get tricky.
Channegram@reddit
I like this answer. Taking the controls at this late stage has a lot of risk on multiple fronts. Tough spot for the FO and one you don’t really get prepared for. This is similar to an interview question I give and my favorite answer is when they key the mic and get ATC involved.
swakid8@reddit
Good answer, but I would hit the TOGA switches first and force the hand that way before trying to take the controls.
GooseMcGooseFace@reddit
The EMB-145 doesn’t have auto throttles so this wouldn’t really do anything to force a go-around.
swakid8@reddit
That’s true except changes to the FMAs and flight guidance…
Floating halfway down the runway and flight for controls is not a great recipe either that can also lead to a bad outcome.
It’s a tough spot for sure.
As a Captain, I expect my FOs to speak up and call me out if I am fucking up. I always say thank you and my bad to acknowledge it.
GooseMcGooseFace@reddit
Looks like those CRM classes worked lol. I just upgraded recently and can’t imagine just ignoring my FO’s go-around call outs unless we’re literally on fire and a crash landing is a better option.
swakid8@reddit
Welcome to the left seat, always remember we are human and we make mistakes.
Oceanside92@reddit
That's absolutely the worst idea. You're gonna kill everyone on board.
GooseMcGooseFace@reddit
No, you’re right, the FO should just watch the CA crash the airplane like the good little seatwarmer/gear-slinger they are. It’s not like they’re also a qualified, typed pilot as well.
Oceanside92@reddit
I do interviews. And if you tell me you yank the controls away like that it's an immediate disqual.
GooseMcGooseFace@reddit
Don’t get injured too hard when you fall off that high horse.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
I'd be interested to hear what you think FO should do, if the captain is clearly going to crash and airplane. Sit and wait for it to be all over?
Oceanside92@reddit
From what I've seen it wasn't clearly. He landed long and fo assumed correctly.
satapotatoharddrive4@reddit
Im curious if the “never take the controls” guys had to CFI. Yeah there’s risk but the plane departed the end of the runway, it could have killed people without EMAS.
drrhythm2@reddit
We have a policy that states exactly that. It’s not optional.
MeatServo1@reddit
This is an interview question for a lot of regionals and 135s for this exact reason.
Channegram@reddit
I got goosebumps twice reading that. The FO litterally tried to save the captains career on at least three occasions. The only thing the FO could have done is taken the airplane, but halfway down the runway having an argument over the controls could have had an even worse ending.
shonan__pilot@reddit
FO did all they could, it's unfortunate how shit the captain's CRM was
TRex_N_Truex@reddit
I’ve flown for 3 different 121 ALPA carriers. One regional, one major, one legacy. All three of them had interesting captains. When I’m talking “interesting” I’m talking about the mean, the weird, the bad captains. Whenever I flew with one of these captains, I always ask myself how the hell they still work for this company. So like all first officers, after the trip I ask other first officers and some captains if they know about xyz captain and I’d estimate 99% of these problem captains have a reputation. Angels in the sim and then a demon on the line, we all know who these pilots are. What I’m getting at here is us as line pilots have a few resources we can fall back on to help this issue. One of those being pro standards.
Pro standards may not give you the immediate results you’re hoping for but it does create the paper trail. When you find yourself flying with some dipshit, call pro stands and add to their history. I feel if more people did this, these incidents/accidents would be prevented. A captain who ignores multiple go around calls doesn’t just happen in that moment.
graysongymguy@reddit
Yeah ignoring a commanded go around is incredibly egregious (at least for me) and is beyond the scope of Pro Standards. Go to the Chief Pilot and be firm. A captain like this is a recipe for disaster, especially if paired with a timid FO on probation.
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
At our Legacy there are Captains that literally have the Pro-Standards number blocked on their phone. It didn't take them long to figure out that they have zero power whatsoever. While pro standards may be a useful tool for people who don't realize they come off a certain way to those people who DGAF they are not going to be any help.
MiniTab@reddit
We did have a CA get fired at mine, but it definitely took longer than it should have. He was an absolute fucking lunatic. He constantly lost his temper and yelled at everyone almost every flight.
He tried that shit with me when I was a new hire on probation. He was yelling at me to hurry up when we were getting ready to push, for absolutely no reason.
I stopped what I was doing, and told him my tendency is to slow down when I feel rushed so I was now going to slow down. As always with these fucktards, he backed down immediately and apologized.
He is the only person in 15 years of 121 that I went to Pro Stans with. After a few more incidents like this, he got canned. He was WAY off the scale though, and it took many, many incidents and “second chances” before he was fired.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
At that point, when do you just go to HR and say fuck em.
prex10@reddit
I have had one interaction with pro standards in my 10 year career. I see why a lot of people are just going to HR now and by passing them
DarkSideMoon@reddit
Pro standards is a fucking joke. No teeth = no change in the pilots that really need it. Sure, it’s useful for FO stinky and Captain MLM but the actual safety/CRM issue assholes are just going to ignore it.
Ok_Excitement725@reddit
Yep I can see this too.
Pro standards is just a get out of jail free card essentially. The bad seeds who even bother talking to them know it’s just a big nothing the union uses to protect them pretty much. Taking it to the company is the only way, I got no time for dbags. If someone can’t play nice, be professional and more so be safe then you got no business being in the seat.
No-Series-3997@reddit
It would probably take physical contact before I'd go around the union structure. It's there for a reason and undermining it may piss off more people than necessary.
The only other reason IMO would be a repeat offender with zero action from pro standards.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
Ya exactly, if said dude has P.S. blocked on his phone then PS ain’t doing shit. If he/she won’t go the union route then why should I.
TRex_N_Truex@reddit
I do agree there is a lot true with what you and it’s feels useless at times. With that being said, there’s going to come a day where your captain is going to ignore multiple go around calls and both of you will go do the carpet dance due to whatever happens. That paper trail is going to sink that captain and keep your job. Pro stands really is for HR deals but when the safety issues start adding up, they will go to the training department or the chief about it.
DepressedFoool@reddit
It only makes the union not give a fuck about them more, if the company wants to fire them.
GeorgiaPilot172@reddit
Exactly this, we have a captain on my fleet that the company and union are quite literally powerless to do anything. When you actually realize what they can do, pro stands is a joke.
21MPH21@reddit
Half way down the runway the FO again called for the go-around.
Damn, really wonder what the CA was thinking/considering
hawker1172@reddit
Gotta get to this darn layover hotel!!
prex10@reddit
That Food Lion across from the Holiday Inn was CALLING.
BrianBash@reddit
This is absolutely sending me right now 😂
Reminds me of the good ol’ days
No-Series-3997@reddit
Please do not say those words to me in that order
prex10@reddit
We've all stared out the window at the old Blockbuster sign in the parking lot too.
No-Series-3997@reddit
I'm more than slightly annoyed at how fast you came back with that.
Rainebowraine123@reddit
It was go home day. Gotta get home!
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
In the report they briefed a diversion in the event of a go-around. Imagine hitting TOGA knowing you’ll have to divert because you botched the approach. It’s what you have to do, but still, I would guess that’s why they didn’t. Ego.
21MPH21@reddit
Botched more than one approach, not proud of it, but not the end of the world.
🎵🎵 you can always go around🎵🎵
ALTSCAP_ALTS_ALT@reddit
Day 4 of 4, leg 2 (of 3 presumably)
Logical_Check2@reddit
And they were behind. This was definitely a factor.
probablyinahotel@reddit
I saw a similar thing from the jumpseat of a 73 going into Jackson WY once. Scared the crap out of me. Capt had spent 10 minutes briefing every detail of the approach blah blah, then couldn't get it down and sailed halfway down the short high runway, finally popped the reversers while STILL AIRBORNE and jammed it on the ground. FOs eyes were dinner plates but he didn't say a word. It's amazing how strong the urge not to go around can be. Not pointing fingers we've all been there, but this one shook me.
skywagonman@reddit
I was there during a pretty crazy winter storm earlier this year.
I was doing my standard post flight duties (pulling bags off the damn plane lmao) and turned around to see a United 737 look like it was about to go off the end. Those poor guys came to a complete stop with the TRs still out feet from the end.
DepressedFoool@reddit
Captain still stuck in 1980s crm
skywagonman@reddit
There’s a ton out there flying 135 it’s insane how bad some of them can be.
OnionDart@reddit
Where the fuck was the captain? FO assumed basically all duties. Was the captain just playing his Tamagotchi and sippin a soda? Great job by the FO
Twarrior913@reddit
When I read that the FO called ATC, then called the FAs, and then back to ATC to coordinate, I feel like the Captain’s mind was still back at the FAF.
bhalter80@reddit
At the threshold at least thinking about how he got there and what was about to happen to him
vintageripstik@reddit
EMAS really saved the day. the people in the back were very lucky this captain got bailed out.
GooseMcGooseFace@reddit
Yeah I just pulled up what is beyond the EMAS at KROA. It’s like a 20 foot straight drop into a road and then a 20 foot ledge on the other side of the road. This could’ve easily been a hull loss/fatality situation depending on the speed they hit the EMAS.
vintageripstik@reddit
Absolutely crazy. But hey maybe they briefed that there is EMAS and decided to send it, right??? 🤪
Firm-Gold7904@reddit
Probably some old guy ignoring his FO because he thinks shes a DEI hire.
Rainebowraine123@reddit
Where does it say the FO is a she?
Ok-Exchange-7891@reddit
I thought I heard on Liveatc that it was a woman. Not like it matters but an observation
Rainebowraine123@reddit
I went and listened to it, and it was. But yeah, I doubt (or at least hope) that didn't affect how the captain put stock in her go around calls.
Ok-Exchange-7891@reddit
Unfortunately it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if the FO being a woman was what led the captain to ignore her concerns. Far too often I see men in our industry brush off the skills and knowledge of female aviators. Which makes absolutely no sense to me. As pilots we all know the effort required to get to where we are, why would it possibly be any different for a woman?
yourlocalFSDO@reddit
I’m not usually one to go here but unfortunately I would be shocked if there wasn’t a large amount of “I’m not letting this girl DEI hire tell me to go around” going though this moron’s head.
DepressedFoool@reddit
Everyone says to watch out for FOs, but really, it's the CAs you should worry about.
someFAsarecrazy@reddit
It’s easier to deal with a bad FO from the other seat than a bad CA.
Both situations aren’t good and have caused accidents/incidents but I agree, a bad CA eventually will fly with a FO who can’t keep them in check adequately.
swakid8@reddit
This is the Official Megathread for this discussion…
DepressedFoool@reddit
Unfortunately the FO will now always have to tick the box of "have you ever been involved in an incident involving the FAA/ntsb” because of the captains stupidity. Even though it's not his fault, it WILL still rank his application lower in the file due to risk. It's like insurance, raising your premium even though you aren't at fault.
r361k@reddit
She, not he.
Oregon-Pilot@reddit
I was subject to an FAA investigation, which was based on an FAA hotline report. Went through it, was found to be 100% in compliance, case closed. But yeah, had to stick that on any application that asked if I had been subject to any FAA investigation, which was almost all of them. On my applications, I wrote about what I learned from it, owned up to how I contributed to it, etc etc etc. During my interview at my legacy, the captain interviewing me took my write up that I had brought and just goes, "thanks for writing this up. I think we all know what that was about," rolled his eyes, and moved on. That was it. Got a job offer a few days later.
So i'd say this kind of thing is not necessarily a death sentence by any means. And in this case, there is an NTSB investigation to back it all up. I think the FO calling for a GA twice, and then staying with the program afterwards and pretty much assuming captain's duties in terms of coordinating with FA and ATC is a good look for him.
oleighter@reddit
pilots like this gotta convince themselves that they want to go around, every time. get the mentality that a landing is the disappointing outcome. it's the only way to nip this risky attitude in the bud.
more block time, more money anyway.
Right-Suggestion-667@reddit
Wouldn’t the FO also be liable for not being more assertive and taking control?
I totally get the main cause is the captain, but since 2 crew isn’t both responsible?
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
A little bit, yes. But the FO won’t be disciplined for it. It’s an incredibly difficult situation for the FO.
FlyingSceptile@reddit
NTSB never determines liability in a legal sense, but if we're going to assign blame, yes there is a share on the FO, but its extremely minor. My initial odds would be 75% to the Captain, 20% to Commutair (specifically to their pilot training curriculum) and 5% to the FO.
Right-Suggestion-667@reddit
Yeah that’s what I was thinking.
I could almost see the report reading like flight crew failure with pinning most on the CA with contributing factor being the FOs inactions
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
So in a case like this, realistically how much trouble does the FO get in? They did what they could aside from physically fighting for the controlls.
Obviously the captain is fired.
SternM90@reddit
I would hope they look upon the FO with grace based on this preliminary report. Outside of an exchange of controls, which has a large risk component as well, not much more they could have done. And the captain that ignores two go-around calls is likely not one that may relinquish controls
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
Counter point: I doubt the CA even heard the go around calls. I bet the dude was so far gone he was tunneled into getting the airplane on the ground.
SternM90@reddit
That’s entirely likely and I agree. I don’t have any input on CA role or outcome. Just chiming in that I hope FO shouldn’t get in hot water here.
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
Exactly. Fighting for it may even be more dangerous than an overrun with EMAS at that point.
duaIinput@reddit
I think they’ll pull the CVR and listen to more of the conversation. They clearly were thinking of the big picture and verbalized their concerns with the captain. At that point, it’s the captain’s hole to dig.
Even the go-around issue, I’m not sure how safe fighting for the controls crossing the threshold would be especially during heavy rain/windshear. She’s pretty much absolved in my view.
f1racer328@reddit
What’s a CUS word? Not a term at my airline that I’m familiar with.
Just lines to bring the CA back to reality?
Avlatlon@reddit
Concerned, uncomfortable, unsafe. You work your way down the list with each being a factor "more intense" than the last. Supposed to be a red flag if anyone says those words, kinda like a verbal gate.
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
Yeah as I mentioned in another comment, fighting for controls that low might even be more dangerous than overrunning into the EMAS.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
I don't fly in the USA, but I'd imagine the FO at my airline would get a sim training session with focus on monitoring and intervention, and perhaps a line check, and then they'd be back on the line.
DQFJK@reddit
A friendly reminder: if you are anticipating moderate or heavy rain on landing, run the numbers with an RCC of 2
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
This is also part of probably every 121 FOM. Good stuff.
ropps202@reddit
It’s amazing how many people don’t cover their ass by running 2s
satapotatoharddrive4@reddit
After two ignored go around callouts some SOPs are going to assume the other pilot is incapacitated and require the PM to take control. Yes lower down it has risk but it’s better than having a clearly incapacitated pilot at the controls.
xXgnhubnature@reddit
Curious to hear Nathan Fielders thoughts on this
prex10@reddit
The FO spoke up, unlike what he insisted wasn't happening in his comedy routine. He got ignored.
Mikey_MiG@reddit
Not saying The Rehearsal was 100% representative of how CRM actually works, but I don’t think he ever stated that FOs never speak up. Many of the real life examples he used were ones where the FOs did speak up, but relented to whatever the CA wanted. Not faulting the FO in this specific accident, but asserting yourself by speaking up and taking control of the aircraft is sometimes necessary.
DepressedFoool@reddit
Guaranteed this captain was on multiple FOs no fly list. Airlines should look into patterns of CAs on no fly lists and do internal investigations as to why certain people are on multiple people's no fly list
prex10@reddit
Not a good luck there.
Avlatlon@reddit
not a good luck at all.
hawker1172@reddit
Captain got what he/she deserves. A career at the regionals maybe less.
OnionDart@reddit
Also, this isn’t the place for an ego. Yes we are prideful in this profession, but that stops the second any of us call go around. In my 12 years in the 121 world I’ve only had to call a go around to a captain once for non visibility related elements. You know what the captain did? You won’t believe it, but he initiated the go around, we came back around, landed and made it to the hotel maybe 5 minutes later. Great guy, great stick, good safe times had by all!
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Preliminary report for the excursion in ROA back in September. Not a good look for the captain…
https://asn.flightsafety.org/wikibase/546744
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