When can I start taking inexperienced passengers?
Posted by dripppydripdrop@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 40 comments
I’m learning how to sail on Catalina 30s and 320s at a local ASA sailing school, in the San Francisco Bay. I’ve passed ASA 101, and I’m in the middle of ASA 103. I’ve done a few group sails with the sailing club, and I have about 8 days on the water now, and will have 10 days once I’m done with ASA 103, at which point I can charter 30 and 32ft boats.
I am trying to figure out how responsible or irresponsible it would be to charter a boat with just myself and a friend or two (who have no sailing experience).
I asked my ASA 101 instructor, and he said “you should have at least one extra person with sailing experience, at least ASA 101 or ideally ASA 103”.
I asked my ASA 103 instructor the same question, and he said “you’re fine with anyone who can listen to instructions and has two hands”.
I’m curious what y’all think.
roehnin@reddit
If you can single-hand, you can take anyone
justdick@reddit
"Sailing with non-sailors is like single-handing with people in the way."
Get comfortable sailing with other sailors first. Then, have one on board as backup, but not actually doing anything, when you take out friends.
Then take non-sailing friends out by yourself.
CocoLamela@reddit
Would you feel comfortable single handing? If not, then you're not ready.
Frankly, ASA 101 and 103 are kind of a joke. You learn the absolute basics of sailing but SF Bay is not a basic place to sail. Until you have more local knowledge and an understanding of how the conditions can turn, I wouldn't recommend taking other people out or going out solo.
How many of your days on the water have been in 20+ knots? Do you think you could get the sails down and the engine on by yourself? Are you comfortable in a solo docking situation with strong breeze?
These are the questions you need to be asking yourself, not reddit.
MissingGravitas@reddit
Schools on the bay (well, at least some of them) will be a bit more motivated to be more rigorous if they want to keep their fleets intact.
That's why the good ones tend to spend twice the time for the intro courses than other places. (OP mentioned only 2 days for 103 which seems odd, but perhaps OP isn't counting classroom time?)
dripppydripdrop@reddit (OP)
ASA 101 was 4 days, ASA 103 is 4 days. ASA 104 is 3 days (2 nights on the boat).
MissingGravitas@reddit
That sounds more reasonable! All the ASA schools that are doing 2 day courses are not doing much for the ASA reputation.
I had very little concern with taking people out fairly early because the classes involved plenty of practice time and the instructors made sure we knew what we were doing and could handle things like MOB recovery.
The most important bit is recognizing that your friends likely won't know what you know, so you need to take the time to explain things well in advance of any maneuver as well as doing what you can to allow time for on-the-fly corrections. Whenever you had more than one person involved in a maneuver in class, think about how you'd do it on your own, as well as how you might instruct an untrained person to assist.
Gravitas__Free@reddit
ASA 101 and 103 are solid foundational material. The joke is thinking you are ready to sail anything, anywhere in any condition. Solo sailing a Santa Cruz 28 after 103 in benign, familiar daylight, coastal conditions is reasonable expectation.
CocoLamela@reddit
Agreed, just the foundation. I took 101 and 103 with a buddy in Hawaii after I had been sailing for 15 years on the Bay. Pretty sure I knew more about sailing than the instructor, even if he had some ASA tips and test knowledge that I lacked. My perception of the courses is probably tainted by that lens because after a full 3 day weekend of sailing, I felt I hadn't learned much at all and was surprised that that's what the ASA considers competence.
y-c-c@reddit
Sorry but what's the point of this comment? Obviously after sailing for 15 years, taking an introductory class (ASA 101 targets complete beginners) won't teach you much. If you think you can only sail and take passengers out after 15 years of sailing then maybe, just maybe, you are doing a bit of gatekeeping here?
CocoLamela@reddit
What is the point of your comment? Triggered?
I absolutely don't think you need 15 years of experience. But you definitely need more than ASA 101 and 103. I did the courses to get a charter resume and to help my friend learn, not because I thought I would gain that much skill-wise.
My point is, ASA markets these courses as if you'll be ready after a long weekend. I was surprised at how little experience my instructor actually had. It's the blind leading the blind. OP has clearly been duped by their marketing efforts.
If you think ASA 101/103 and 8 days on the water not helming is enough to risk other novices lives on San Francisco Bay, then I sure as hell am glad I'm not on your boat.
13lackMagic@reddit
This is the vibe. ASA is mostly a cash grab designed around making people feel overly confident in their rudimentary sailing ability - it really only certifies that you aren’t going to plow full speed into the dock under perfect conditions, which is good enough for most charter fleets.
kdjfsk@reddit
Imo, as far as it being a cash grab, i'd say that more to do with the high cost...the material itself does what it intends, and is fine.
The ASA-101 book, 'Sailing Made Easy' is great at achieving its goal, which is just basic principles and terminology. thats all the prerequisite you can really ask for before you need to actually get on the water to learn more.
The book is like $35 on its own, which is 95% of the value, which means you (and every other student in the group) is paying like $700 for two sessions of a few hours each, and even that is just weather permitting. (i kind of got screwed on that angle when i took it). It's an insane hourly rate just to have an instructor take you out on a Capri 22 or whatever.
Turbulent_War4067@reddit
Really an easy answer. When you can confidently go out single-handed, ie all by your lonesome, in conditions of beaufort scale X, you can take someone inexperienced out in X-1.
But "confidently" is the key term. If you think you can do so with X greater than or equal to 5, then do it 10 more times. You will change your mind.
1nzguy@reddit
Taking a friend sailing is a great way to up skill yourself… do it as soon as you can … as the experience person, you will be calling the shots , but not necessarily doing all the work, get of the dock , the teach your friend how to helm in a straight line … you then raise the sails etc … teach friends to helm .. you do the sailing..
Bikkleman@reddit
Unhelpful answer, but the answer is you'll know when you're ready. Skippering a yacht with novices/non sailors is rewarding but complex. If they're just there for a ride- give them a good safety briefing, tell them when to stay out of the way, and go for it. If they're there to participate and learn, you need to be ready for that too. I'd do a couple of passages with experienced crew but make it clear you're skipper that day. Remember a skipper's job is crew management as much as boat management:) if those passages go well, take your novice friends out:)
nogoodalternatives@reddit
I sail in the bay. There's a huge difference between going out this time of year when everything is pretty chill and everything happens pretty slowly, and the middle of the summer when getting the sails up can be a struggle if everyone isn't on their game. I think you'll be fine going out with inexperienced people on a nice sunny 5-10kt fall day (just pay attention to tides). I would not recommend it in summer conditions.
MissingGravitas@reddit
Agree, it very much depends on conditions. I took family/friends out relatively early, but I didn't take them out into the slot. There's plenty of light sailing in flat water if you come out from Alameda, and if for some reason you did need to do an MOB recovery you wouldn't be struggling to manage the boat in whitecaps and 27 knot winds.
RonGoBongo111@reddit
I learned to sail in the San Francisco Bay and started taking people out not too long after I completed ASA 103. I was also sailing a 30-footer. The good news is that over the coming months, the wind in the Bay won't be too bad, so you won't be facing the regular 20-25+ knot winds in the slot, which are typical in the Summer. It's really a relatively calm time to take people out. As others have said, once you feel like you can single-hand the boat, you should be ok. Just always be conservative. Don't take risks. There are lots of ferries and large container ships. Stay clear of little Alcatraz, too. Where are you sailing out of?
MrSnowden@reddit
I took my son out. He is quite capable, practical kid. My jib got fouled and I went up to get it free. Hit a little wave and lost my balance for a just a second. But thought “what if I fell off? I didn’t teach him anything about rudder, sails, anchor, etc. he would have just sailed off and by the time he figured out what to do would have been hundreds of feet away.
I resolved to make sure there is always someone else with at least a modicum of knowledge.
the-montser@reddit
Whenever you have developed the skills to be able to sail by yourself. Happens at different speeds for different people.
Moist-Mess5144@reddit
This is the answer.
Anecdotally, I got my ASA 101,103, AND 104 on a 30' mono then almost immediately chartered a 47' monohul in the BVIl with 2 other people who had never sailed, but were competent. I've since chartered about the same size monohuls and catamarans successfully, and usually I'm the only sailor. It's really easy to tell people how to help tacking, gybing, catching a mooring, and docking. Rules 1-3 are also easy to follow. DON'T FALL OFF YHE F'N BOAT.
MadameoftheMacabre@reddit
This is the best answer. No set time frame but more about experience and confidence. While inexperienced friends may be able to lend a hand at times, often in the times you need it the most they will not be able to or know how to help. You should only take out inexperienced sailors without another sailor, when you feel like you could go out solo. If you are able to and feel confident sailing/ docking independently then you are ready to bring some folks out regardless of what level you are at.
PrizeAnnual2101@reddit
So San Francisco the water temperature is always cold which is a pretty big issue in a MOB incident
In general it’s also a pretty windy location we’re pretty challenging selling conditions so all of that needs to be considered
Gravitas__Free@reddit
Charter a boat…. Like for a day in the local waters where you have learned to sail, on a boat that you are familiar with? Or charter a boat that you are unfamiliar with, in a foreign country?
That sentence right there should induce a realization that there are differing factors that contribute to complexity.
How many times have you been out on the water and you have had to deal with a significant issue? For example: blocked engine water intake? Jib won’t furl at all? If these kinds (normal, but significant mechanical type stuff) things happened how ready are you to be the only person to diagnose and cure?
What is your game plan for something more serious? What is the back up plan if that doesn’t work?
If the people, friends or otherwise, are paying you to perform the service, that would require a USCG captain’s license (or your country’s version of it).
Gravitas__Free@reddit
Charter a boat…. Like for a day in the local waters where you have learned to sail, on a boat that you are familiar with? Or charter a boat that you are unfamiliar with, in a foreign country?
That sentence right there should induce a realization that there are differing factors that contribute to complexity.
How many times have you been out on the water and you have had to deal with a significant issue? For example: blocked engine water intake? Jib won’t furl at all? If these kinds (normal, but significant mechanical type stuff) things happened how ready are you to be the only person to diagnose and cure?
What is your game plan for something more serious? What is the back up plan if that doesn’t work?
If the people, friends or otherwise, are paying you to perform the service, that would require a USCG captain’s license (or your country’s version of it).
Consider reading the Annapolis Book of Seamanship cover to cover, and then evaluating yourself, before taking people aboard for more than something extremely benign.
the_mustard_king@reddit
Depends on your comfort level like others have said, but if you ever need someone to sail with that has some experience I can help! I am local to the area and currently don’t have a boat so would love to get out on the water more
vacagreens@reddit
I also did the ASA classes (did mine out of Richmond) and the answer is dependent upon your experience and the capabilities of your crew. It took me a couple dozen sailing trips before I felt like I could bring others with me if they had no experience. Hands down, the sketchiest part of the day is always that late afternoon wind that can get up to 15-20 knots and you need to get to the dock to pump out or into the slip safely. I really enjoyed the ASA 118 course I did where the instructor focused not only on various docking maneuvers but also how to teach newbies how to handle lines when docking.
Freedom-For-Ever@reddit
The problem you have with inexperienced crew is:
What do you do if the wind gets up, they get frightened, and won't come out the cabin?
Could you handle that on your own?
When the answer is , yes, then the time is right.
AppropriateBunch147@reddit
Anytime you can keep them safe.
SVLibertine@reddit
C’mon over to Alameda and you can sail with me anytime…
Me, sailing SV Andiamo! just off the Embarcadero recently…she’s an ‘85 Ericson 30 Plus. And runs (literal) circles around Catalinas. For fun, we’ll go under the gate and offshore, strapped in, of course.
SoaringPuffin@reddit
How well do you respond under pressure? Practice this. Randomly throw a life jacket overboard. Circle around as quick as you can. Put her into the wind. Throw a line out that hits the jacket or very very close to. Pull it in. Fake a radio emergency call.
Did the jacket survive?
Can you do this consistently and keep your cool in different weather conditions?
If yes, then you are ready.
light24bulbs@reddit
Try to make friends with someone from the class or sailing school who has some experience. A mate with experience REALLY helps things go smooth
Strict-Air2434@reddit
You don't do newbies in greater than 8 knots.
blogito_ergo_sum@reddit
I think I was around your level of training and experience when I first took out someone with zero experience. Fortunately I also had someone else with experience with me, because despite my best efforts at a briefing beforehand I did not succeed in making my friend useful and I definitely would not have been ready to single-hand (especially docking) at that point. I've since gotten more training (104 equivalent), more time on the water (around 50 days now), been put into some dinghy sailing situations where I was the only person with experience on the boat and ended up doing a fair bit of explaining, and been practicing single-handing, and I'm now at the point where I might again think about taking a keelboat out with a zero-experience crew in low-stakes conditions.
Admirable-Horse-4681@reddit
Join the Cal Sailing Club in Berkeley and sign up for their cruises. They go everywhere you will eventually go in your chartered boat with your friends, Angel Island, Tiburon, Sausalito, Jack London Square, etc. Lot of added experience on the bay for not much money.
Capri2256@reddit
I would say somewhere in between your 101 and your 103 instructor. The person who can listen to instructions and has two hands must also have some spatial awareness and a rudimentary sense of mechanics - forces, levers, etc.
drossmaster4@reddit
I’ll tell you how I became proficient in taking people out who knew nothing on my late father’s 50’ sense. I grew up sailing but when I expressed my desire to take friends out he took me out every week, multiple times to practice everything from docking to anchoring to sailing to radio communications. He would say “I’m here to help but only when you ask and are specific with what you want me to do” to mimic my guests who know nothing. Now if I was in danger or panicked and needed real help he would but that was the drill. I did this over and over again. The key was communication. I had to learn what to ask for. We also purposefully had different color lines on the boat. Sheets were red halliards were black etc etc so I could say “grab the white line” vs crank the sheet. Then we had strict rules that I would give when they came on board. As my dad would say “accidents on water almost always end with a life” so take it seriously. I told groups me plus one had to be sober. The second one was so they could rescue me if needed. Buuuut once we got to shore all drink are on the others, ha. It’s about practice. You have to be able to do everything by yourself. Help is a gift. Enjoy the journey. I took friends to Catalina island a hundred times because I got good at it. Just practice. Once you can do it on your own you’re good.
johnbro27@reddit
If you feel absolutely ready to be responsible for their actual lives, then sure. If there is any doubt, then there is no doubt.
jh937hfiu3hrhv9@reddit
At least teach them what to do if you become incapacitated.
Infamous-Adeptness71@reddit
There's no set answer. But what really helps is when you "skipper" the boat with another experience person on board who is not going to intervene constantly. If you can do this a few times, you may be ready to charter a 30ft sailboat.
By the way ideally you would start smaller, with a 22ft boat or something.
Anyways, this is the kind of thing...it needs to happen at some point. You just need to go for it. So the person that knows when that's possible is really you. Are you going to take it seriously? Prepare? Have a gameplan? Think through some "what ifs"?
I guess bottom line: if you have 101 and 103 done, and about another \~25 hours on the water crewing (actively)...it's probably time to go for it.