Ides Of March
Posted by RockGodItachi@reddit | xena | View on Reddit | 9 comments
First of all I just want to say Hi to all the Xena fans out there! It's great to find a Reddit community who loves the Warrior Princess as much as I do! Second I watched Xena back when I was 16 and after the traumatic finale vowed never to do a re-watch again (I had a mad crush on her! it was painful lol) however recently I moved and found myself holding my Xena DVD complete boxset and thought, yes it's time to re-visit the world of ancient gods, warlords and kings! So that brings me to where I am now the Ides Of March. A truly amazing episode with the culmination of Alti's vision and the demise of Ceaser it really is a superb ride! However there were a few things that jumped to my mind I'd like to share with you:
Why did Xena try to kill Ceaser knowing full well the Romans were in Altis' vision?
I've asked myself this a lot and all I can come up with is basically hate. She must have had so much hatred for Ceaser that it clouded her mind and didn't give her the focus on thinking that Romans are involved so better to not get involved as this could lead to the vision coming true. In fact in true plot twist style by trying to remove the obstacle that could crucify her and Gabrielle she unwittingly walked right into the path that lead to it. So if she had avoided the Romans in the first place the vision may have been changed altogether and they could have both been saved or fate literally could have kicked in and made it a path that she couldn't remove her or Gabrielle from. Either way by getting involved with the Romans she had sealed both her and Gabrielle's death warrant.
Why didn't Gabrielle stop her going after Ceaser?
This has got at me for some time because both Ceaser and Ming Tien are both people who want power and to rule by crushing those underfoot. So the fact that Gabrielle makes a deal with Ares to stop Xena by getting to Chin first to foil her attempt at assassination is quite a turn around when she doesn't even bat an eyelid at Xena stating she is going to kill Ceaser! Even more surprising is the fact that she doesn't say anything knowing about the vision as Xena told her what Alti had showed her. yes after the India episodes Gabrielle had her way and Xena had come to terms with the way of the warrior but giving Gabrielle's nature killing in cold blood was still something she very much frowned upon! So to let Xena go to kill Ceaser is really in a sense out of character for her even though she was focused on saving Eli and his followers.
Would Callisto still have interfered if Xena didn't go to kill Ceaser?
This is a tricky one as Callisto was full of hatred and her time in hell obviously didn't do much for her sanity and the fact she manipulated Ceaser into doing her bidding showed she still had a skill of turning people into her puppet. If Xena had chose to not go after Ceaser the likelihood is that Callisto would have found some way of interfering to make her do so, so in that respect would Xena have still ended up on the same path or would she have tried something else to avoid getting involved with the Romans? The chances are Callisto would have targeted Gabrielle to force Xena's hand. Thus putting Xena right where she wants her.
Where were Xena's and Gabrielle's friends and the Greek Gods?
Throughout the series Xena and Gabrielle made friends and acquaintances but it was only Joxer and Amarice who were around after they got crucified and with Eli's helped managed to rescue them. It's surprising to me that word of the crucifixion hadn't spread to Greece and that none of their friends showed up to offer support. Not even Hercules or Iolas arrived to give aid. As for Ares I was confused as to why he didn't show up either as he does in the episode Chakram but not when Xena is getting crucified and left for dead? I thought surely he wouldn't have wanted his warrior queen killed by Ceaser? Xena had changed and he is aware of it but it's obvious he still holds a torch for her otherwise he wouldn't have favoured her over Mavican, so why leave her and Gabrielle to die when he could have easily traveled to Italy to save them? This may have been impossible if he still had issues with Kal over the dark chakram but in the Chakram episode they hadn't killed eachother so it's unlikely Kal would have stopped him. Why didn't any of the other Gods show up to help? Aphrodite and Hades both owed Xena and Gabrielle debts so it's surprising they didn't help with this matter. maybe they didn't know about it but being Gods it's likely they would have. It's unclear how long Xena and Gabrielle were left crucified but even if it was days and they were still alive they could have been saved but no one helped them despite everything they both had done for them.
So there were're those are my thoughts on some of the things that popped into my head after Ides Of March! Once again a truly fantastic episode! I am enjoying me re-watch immensely and I am so happy to be reunited with the characters I love so much! Also I am blown away with the diversity of the acting! There're so many phenomenal performances it really is a gem of a series! What were your thoughts on the Ides Of march when you watched it?
Thanks for reading! :D
RGI
AuntyEmfromOz@reddit
Perhaps Xena thought if she killed Caesar she could stop the crucifixions. Throughout most of Season 4, she did things to try and stop the future prophecy.
Did Gabrielle know that Xena was going after Caesar? I'd have to watch the episode again to remind myself. Gabrielle seemed too caught up with coming across Eli again to give much thought to what Xena was doing - sort of a reversal of The Deliverer where it was the other way around. Quite the irony, too, as both were about the so-called One God - or so Gabrielle thought.
Likewise, though, when she realised that Xena was helpless (broken back) she immediately forgot her other preoccupation (peace and Eli) and her dedication to/love for Xena kicked in and that's why she started killing all those Roman soldiers to try and protect her, and at least she got a bit of time for their final farewell (that beautiful scene in the jail cell).
The crucifixion was in Italy at a place called Mt Amaro (which is a real place). By the time her friends found out she was being crucified, they wouldn't have had time to get there to help out. According to Googlemaps getting there from Greece was over 600 miles so not a quick trip. And it was snowing so they would have died quickly because of exposure. I believe when they were filming some of the crucifixion scenes, Renee actually suffered from hypothermia. Joxer, however, well Joxer was amazing. He's either constantly stalking (i.e. following) the girls or he has some sort of superpower and is able to turn up and find them in no time at all wherever they are!
The Greek Gods were not omnipotent - think Discord in Takes One to Know One. They'd get caught up with other things on their mind and missed lots of things happening around them, plus they were out of their 'area' and, most probably, out of their power base.
Finally, the difference between Gabrielle's reaction to Xena going to kill The Green Dragon, and her pursuing Caesar? It's very clear in Forget Me Not that Gabrielle was jealous of Lao Ma, which is why she betrayed Xena in Chin. Caesar, however, had caused personal harm to Xena (Ming T'ien had not - only to Lao Ma) and we know that Gabrielle doesn't like it when others hurt Xena. Plus the Romans had killed Ephiny.
Does that help?
Maverick_Mack@reddit
No. 6:
You make it very good point about, why Gabrielle didn’t try to stop Xena going after Caesar. As it was a personal thing for Xena to deal with, as Caesar wronged her and he tries to kill her not once but twice.
After he betrayed her and killing her men, then try to Xena kill it by crucifying her and again. After a friend of her rescue her from the cross, but she died by protecting Xena from one of Caesar’s man.
While Loa Ma was the different situation of because yes, she was jealous of that person that Xena was going to accept. A task she was going to do, because a quest from dear friend of her.
I guess that why, Gabrielle gonna try to stop Xena going after Caesar. As was a personal vendetta that, she needed to deal with. Yes, Caesar price on her life.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
No. 6: You make it very good point about, why Gabrielle didn’t try to stop Xena going after Caesar. As it was a personal thing for Xena to deal with, as Caesar wronged her and he tries to kill her not once but twice.
After he betrayed her and killing her men, then try to Xena kill it by crucifying her and again. After a friend of her rescue her from the cross, but she died by protecting Xena from one of Caesar’s man.
While Loa Ma was the different situation of because yes, she was jealous of that person that Xena was going to accept. A task she was going to do, because a quest from dear friend of her.
I guess that why, Gabrielle gonna try to stop Xena going after Caesar. As was a personal vendetta that, she needed to deal with. Yes, Caesar price on her life.
SakuraTacos@reddit
The thing with Xena is as much as she preaches about not seeking an eye for an eye, like trying to tell Gabrielle not to seek vengeance for Callisto and Gurkhan, Xena’s a big big hypocrite. She’s not totally over her trauma with Caesar. Xena’s vision was as much of a self-fulfilling prophecy as the Twilight of the Gods. She let hate and fear walk her right into it.
Also, Caesar put a $6 million bounty on Xena’s head. Xena was going to be hunted unless she did something about it.
One thing about Gabrielle going to Chin to stop Xena is that her choice was heavily driven by jealousy over Xena having a past love she’s still holding on to and a history she hid from Gabrielle, more so than her not wanting Xena to kill outside of self-defense. She wasn’t going to have that same conflict with Xena going after Caesar because Gabrielle was a lot more familiar with their history.
IIRC, or maybe this was my own headcanon, Gabrielle also didn’t want to believe the vision, she wanted to believe what Xena always says: they control their own destiny. She thought Xena was going to figure it out like she always does and rewrite the vision’s outcome.
IseQween@reddit
I disagree about the "self-fulfilling prophecy." I do believe Xena figured Caesar was involved somehow with the envisioned crucifixions, but had no intention whatsoever to kill him for that reason or to simply satisfy some lingering desire for vengeance. As I contend in another comment in this thread, I think she tried to avoid him. Caesar's political crap in Amazonia and Cally's "Lord" from Hell -- not Xena's hate or fear -- propelled X&G toward those crosses. By the time Xena came to that jail, she shared Gabs' faith that they could determine their own destiny -- "Listen, that vision's not going to happen, all right?" They would've prevailed, if not for Cally's super-mortal powers to pop in and fulfill her Psycho Way.
SakuraTacos@reddit
No I don’t think she went after him to avoid the vision, just that Xena had an open-book test placed in front of her and STILL the second she heard he had a bounty on her head she was like “Heck yes, an excuse to go after Caesar, don’t mind if I do!”
She tells Gabrielle “You can’t come because of the vision” as if THAT’S what will be their downfall and not Xena’s immediate reaction of “I have to take him down or die trying” WELP! Ya took him down but you also died trying, my friend!
But I’ve not been watching these episodes for as long, I’m still learning about them so I can always misread things lol
IseQween@reddit
I believe the trip to India was precisely to get away from Romans. It's actually Gabrielle's role as Amazon queen that draws them home and into the battle Caesar's power struggles have extended beyond Rome. After they drive the Romans out, they're on their way to meet up with Eli when Xena learns Caesar's put a huge bounty on her head. Regardless of the vision, she knows she and her friends will be hunted to their deaths anyway.
Gabs knows Caesar's ruthlessness. She accepts and trusts Xena must handle the situation her own Way. The warrior is fairly cool, calm and collected in going after Caesar. She fails to kill him herself but guesses he's about to anoint himself emperor. She warns Brutus, pretty much leaving it up to Caesar's fellows to take him out. She then focuses on rescuing Gabs and the Eli group. She saves the latter, probably would've saved herself and Gabs if not for Callisto's super-mortal interference.
It was Cally's obsession with Xena that blew everything up. She didn't give a hoot about Caesar except as a pawn in gaining favor with the Evil "Lord" who freed her from hell to win Xena to his fold. She failed to do so my his rules. Being Cally, she ultimately cared only about what she wanted and played by her own rules when she feared the WP would escape death or defeat once again.
As to others you mention, I think Amarice expected the Dynamic Duo to prevail. I doubt she had WiFi coverage to summon help anyway. Joxer, of course, had a special connection to his friend's whereabouts, this time through nightmares. I rarely hurt my brain about the gods' motivation and was relieved none popped up for me to worry about.
RedwoodFox71@reddit
Yes, Xena has vendetta against Caesar. Since he betrayed her, when she see him again. As Caesar has kills her men and set to kill Xena, as she crucified and have him breaking her legs.
Xena did wanted revenge on Caesar, since she met a person named Khrafstar. Who Caesar and Xena set her goals gets her revenge that, cause Gabrielle some mess from her first kill and loss of her innocent to having Hope.
Maybe the reason why, Gabrielle didn’t try to stop Xena. Going after Caesar, because she probably going to get him sooner or later
If he doesn’t get her first, I guess it’s unfortunately that. She probably fell to the trip of the vision, she got from Alti and vision of her and Gabrielle demise came through.
Evilbuffy14@reddit
Wow. You've analysed this a fair bit. Well done.
The question should be why wouldn't Xena try to kill Cesaer. He's an asshole that's used her so many times. But, more importantly, if he's not alive, there wouldn't be a crucifixion.
I know, I know. It would be better for Gabrielle to have tried to keep Xena away, but she knows better than that. If Xena says she's going to do something, she's gonna do it.
Yes, I think you're right about Callisto. She had her orders and knew the outcome. She was going to make sure it came to fruition no matter what.
The Greek Gods have no power outside of Greece. They do mention it in at least one episode, can't remember which one.
How'd I do?