Why does a 22 Citroen have a worse ESC system than a 02 BMW?
Posted by hoeseateggs@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 17 comments
So to start off English is not my first language so apologies for any mistakes. I am currently renting a 2022 Citroen C3 (not my choice). As any car guy would, I am pushing the car as a rental should be pushed imo. I noticed that the traction control is significantly worse than in my E46 330i. So my question: how is it possible that a car 20 year older car has a better traction control system?
RJsRX7@reddit
One of these vehicles is RWD, one of these vehicles is FWD.
RWD is massively better at turning while accelerating than FWD can even remotely hope to be. This isn't a calibration issue so much as a physics issue, the C3 is a very tall car with rather skinny tires coupled with FWD; this means that the inside front tire is very easy to unload and cause ESC intervention in situations you're used to not seeing in the E46.
SailingSpark@reddit
I remember when I had my BMW, a 1995 E36 318ti, one of the cheapest BMWs you could buy. While it did not come with traction control, let alone ESC, I was amazed at how well calibrated the ABS was. You could barely feel it in action. My mother had a similar year Buick at the time, when ABS activated on that car, the brake pedal would violently kick back at you.
hoeseateggs@reddit (OP)
I am sure this is true. I bet those two cars were not 20 years apart, though.
SailingSpark@reddit
No, they were 2 years apart.
I now have a 2012 fiat 500 abarth, the ESC on that car is almost spooky. You can feel it applying the brakes to keep you from sliding, but it's not intrusive, it just happens, and you steer out of whatever corner you went too fast into.
havnar-@reddit
It’s to keep grandma from crashing going to the shops on their 15 year old linglong all weather 7 season tires
hoeseateggs@reddit (OP)
This might be true. I was also wondering who would buy a car like this because there is nothing positive about it. Neither the price nor what you get. But I guess a grandma convinced by a nice salesman is the answer.
LrckLacroix@reddit
Exactly
LrckLacroix@reddit
Well one of them is a RWD car designed, engineered and marketed to an enthusiast market and the other one is a compact SUV marketed towards the elderly and mothers doing grocery runs.
Also, what do you mean “better”? In some circles better would indicate it performs well in accident and crash prevention testing………..
what you’re looking for is probably “i gave the car a bit too much steering angle and carried too much speed into this off camber corner and the traction control saved my life”
hoeseateggs@reddit (OP)
This made me laugh out loud, thanks :)
mrclark25@reddit
In what way is it worse?
hoeseateggs@reddit (OP)
It takes about 2 seconds to recognize there is a slip. After the "dangerous" situation is long over, it blinks for another 3 seconds and doesn't let you accelerate. Also, the "correction" it makes is questionable at best.
So, worse in every possible way.
Whack-a-Moole@reddit
Money.
hoeseateggs@reddit (OP)
Traction control is an electronic system, though. Meaning whatever was expensive 2002 should be very cheap 2022. (20 years of progress)
mrclark25@reddit
The hardware may be cheaper, but the engineering time is not.
Whack-a-Moole@reddit
The application of brakes is an electronic/mechanical/hydraulic system.
And it's cheaper to just not.
Talynen@reddit
Quality of ESC systems can be improved with more powerful hardware, but fundamentally it's the type of system where the effort put into tuning/calibrating its performance and the parameters upon which it operates will have a HUGE impact.
BMW in 2002 was probably putting more energy and time into making sure that the outcome (the way the system feels/works) matched better to what someone who "pushes" a car would expect/want.
A Citroen being sold to rental fleets will probably not have much, if any, engineering budget devoted to calibrating the ESC for performance driving.
hoeseateggs@reddit (OP)
Fair enough, I have to say, though, that imo the ESC in this Citroen is literally dangerous and a hazard, even for normal driving (Emergency evasion of obstacles and similar) and thats even if the system is turned off.