I'm Out Of The Loop. What's the deal with DHH (Omarchy) and Framework vs Gnome, Debian and other projects?
Posted by onechroma@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 509 comments
I'm curious to know why there is so much drama among these Linux folks, at least on social media and communication channels.
- I didn't know anything about Hyprland, but it seems that its main developer is quite problematic and authoritarian, calling users on Discord or GitHub idiots at the slightest provocation, or for not having the same knowledge as him.
- I've heard something about Omarchy, a distro created by DHH based on Arch + Hyprland. I know he's a controversial character, very much cut from the cloth of the typical wealthy tech bro.
- Finally, I've heard of Framework, a company that manufactures Linux laptops.
It seems, if I'm not mistaken, that Framework decided to donate to and support Hyprland and Omarchy, among other projects, and there have been communities such as Gnome and Debian that haven't had a good opinion of this? With some in Gnome thinking of rejecting the donation and Debian removing Hyprland from its repositories?
Meanwhile, what I've seen on social media is DHH attacking these projects as much as he can and integrating himself into circles that link Linux with ideology, from a conservative or right-wing/far-right point of view, starting to criticize these projects for being leftist, and saying they criticize him “for calling attention to the hypocrisy of the left, which generates defensive overreactions,” and “I was blissfully unaware of just how nutty things had gotten in much of Linux land, and didn't realize GNOME had been fully captured.”
Captured by who? What is all this shit? What's the context suddenly for all this? Was Framework already a huge donor or this is just overreacted and no problem?
I'm perplexed by how so little part of the community can make such a big fuss and be able to turn on the shit fan over so many people over so many projects (Gnome, Debian...)
Gugalcrom123@reddit
Omarchy isn't a serious distro but rather DHH exporting his personal setup.
Jojos_BA@reddit
Well ye. I wouldn’t call it a distro. It’s a nicely shipped set of dotfiles like u said…
ElvishJerricco@reddit
"Nicely shipped" is a stretch too. It's a pile of janky shell scripts.
Gugalcrom123@reddit
And very specific. It literally has a keyboard shortcut for SPOTIFY?
crabcrabcam@reddit
Hey, Windows has a keyboard shortcut for LinkedIn. It's not that bad.
Mastussopingado@reddit
That's a crime against rhe universe
freedomlinux@reddit
Two things can be bad...
Anyusername7294@reddit
And GROK AND X
SillyEnglishKinnigit@reddit
Every distro install is shell scripts. Just some package it up with pretty decorations so you don't notice.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
that's not true,
SillyEnglishKinnigit@reddit
Anything that gets installed is just text file scripts that run behind the scenes.
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
that's overly reductive. There's a complex machinary behind the scenes that decides what to install where to install it, and in what order it gets installed in and to also make sure that conflicting things don't get installed. Then there's all the code going in on the tooling itself that gets installed to even make linux itself work as an OS.
Gugalcrom123@reddit
However, a good distro hosts package repositories to make those easier to manage, it doesn't do it ad-hoc.
Jojos_BA@reddit
No, alltho your definition can be different than mine, I still think that this so called pile of janky scripts does a good enough job.
I don and will not use Omarcgy, since I dont like the dev, nor would I give up my dwm config, but I love that this exists for the reason, that it lowers the entry point for a TWM for newbies.
I dont really like a full DE, but most ppl who come from windows and Mac dont know any alternatives, so naturally they will use a de.
Having an easy entry point to a Tiller is awesome, since a tiller is a big reason to use Linux
bitspace@reddit
Like much of the Unix world for decades.
ranisalt@reddit
Tbh that's what a lot of distros do. Crunchbang was just Debian with pretty nice Openbox default config and no one questioned it being a distro by then.
CaptainObvious110@reddit
pretty much
Gugalcrom123@reddit
But in that case, the config was actually designed to be used by people. Omarchy is extremely specific to DHH.
ranisalt@reddit
I agree, but that's highly subjective
SillyEnglishKinnigit@reddit
Isn't that what most distros are? A base linux, with packages preinstalled and some theming?
Gugalcrom123@reddit
Not really, the good distros usually provide overlay package repositories at least, plus the setup is designed for more people. Omarchy is DHH exporting his very specific setup (including apps like Spotify or Typora), it isn't designed to help others, but DHH pretends it does.
johnshonz@reddit
For him and developers that choose to work for his company, but yeah
nerdandproud@reddit
It's even in the name which borrows from Japanese omakase restaurants where the chef picks for you.
jrochkind@reddit
At a restaurant you'd go back to, the chef cares something about giving his customers a meal they enjoy though, and knows that is different than making the meal the chef wants to eat tonight.
mrobot_@reddit
basically he packaged hyprland and added some pseudo 8-bit graphics, woopdefriggindoo..... srsly, I dont care if anyone is happy using stuff like hyprland and posting about it on reddit that they like the look.. but let's not pretend that makes you some super special snowflake, if you wanna feel "low level", there's the console and emacs and vim/nvim - just use that and set that look up there. There's even other "opinionated" linux folks who been maintaining text-only/console-only distros for decades... if you wanna act all cool any "h4x0r-like".
This style-over-substance signaling is sickening.
Gugalcrom123@reddit
I don't like how ad-hoc GUI toolkits with monospaced fonts are in trend
cyber-punky@reddit
To be honest, I love me some monospaced fonts. Those filthy filthy variable width fonts can go home.
nebenbaum@reddit
The funniest thing is that a lot of people that have no tech skills whatsoever now are installing it because they think it looks cool and hackery, and get stumped by the most basic tasks. Then they proceed to blame Linux for 'being complex' rather than just using Ubuntu, mint, Fedora or something that's way easier to use for a layman.
__ali1234__@reddit
This has always been a problem.
raullits@reddit
I don't think DHH calls it a distro. Basically only Linux noobs think of it that way.
Dude just got excited with his dotfiles and shared with a global audience. I wish he would have made an install script cause it is a nice-looking time saver, but I'll stay on CachyOS.
Dialectic-Compiler@reddit
I just looked at the intro video on the site, abd he calls it a modern Linux distro.
raullits@reddit
Ahh, I see! Regardless, I see it as a massive net positive for Linux adoption. Still probably my favorite pre-packaged Hyprland config so far and I think updates are going better than I would have expected.
Might give it another shot later on my secondary ThinkPad, not on my main gaming laptop.
Dialectic-Compiler@reddit
How do you see it as a boon for Linux adoption over say GNOME or KDE?
raullits@reddit
Do you see people on tech Twitter and YouTube raving about their KDE & GNOME systems? Obviously part of it is shiny new toy syndrome, but it's gotten a ton of people that spent years without touching Linux or never had to reconsider it.
Marketing does matter. Most people are not aware that you can install most Linux distros and be work ready in 15 mins. The Omarchy fad takes it next level by even adding PWA for stuff like WhatsApp.
Most people don't know many of their Windows apps are PWAs or what window tiling is. Setting up your own Hyprland config is a major pain (I've done it, and honestly not worth it for me).
TL;DR: It's convenient and Hyprland is cool & pretty.
Dialectic-Compiler@reddit
Makes sense to me. I was thinking more in the terms of Omarchy providing (what I would assume is) an intuitive UI, which I figured GNOME and KDE already had covered, but I forgot about stuff like Pewdiepie showing off his desktop recently.
raullits@reddit
Yeah, it's that really. It's really a great job overall of putting together a convenient package.
I used Linux from 2011-2020 and only jumped back on it this year due to seing how things had evolved on my Steam Deck; and cause I have the same laptop as PewDiePie and turns out NVIDIA drivers stopped being crap in Q4 2024.
Dialectic-Compiler@reddit
If I weren't using NixOS, I'd give it a look, since I've been meaning to take Hyprland for a spin, but I'm simply too attached to declarative configuration.
cries in Pascal
Nascentes87@reddit
His ass-kissers who are trying it coming from macOS don't call it a distro, they call it an OS. "DHH created the best OS for devs". It's amazing how some people in tech are so clueless about such basic stuff.
raullits@reddit
We all gotta start somewhere I guess... I only came back to Linux 3 months ago after learning NVIDIA drivers were now good for my laptop and overall Linux is so much better than back in 2020.
But like you say, it's funny so many pros are as clueless about these things XD
SillyEnglishKinnigit@reddit
There is a difference between sharing dotfiles on Github and putting together an ISO that installs linux, installs packages, configures those packages, inserts the modified dotfiles and making it ready to use after the first boot. That isn't just "sharing some dotfiles"
raullits@reddit
Yeah yeah, it's a complete package. I like the approach and really do like his Hyprland look, but personally I would get more use of the mere ricing.
At least he onboarded thousands of people onto Linux and that is a definite W.
TimeProfessional4494@reddit
An install script like mentioned here? Or do you mean that it is too tied to arch?
arkane-linux@reddit
Yet I heard corpos are sponsoring it already.
Crap like this makes me so salty.
natermer@reddit
Well go and fundamentally change how software development is done on the world wide web and then, maybe, if you start publishing your desktop environment on the internet somebody might want to give you money too.
picastchio@reddit
He got props for that. But then he showed everyone who he was.
Kernel-Mode-Driver@reddit
Come again? Does he not like consent?
picastchio@reddit
He is bemoaning low birthrates. White people's birthrates obviously. He also doesn't like increased visibility of non-whites.
Anyways he blamed it on the morality of two people having full rights to what they do in their lives with each others consent.
If you want to read it just google "dhh consent"
arkane-linux@reddit
This project did none of that. It is just an Arch installation script.
Gugalcrom123@reddit
Corporations should sponsor actual software or software maintenance, not some guy's personal configurations. Omarchy is basically on the level of Hannah Montana Linux, just packaged nicely.
hitsujiTMO@reddit
It's semi serious in the fact that he's selling Omarchy merch and other influencers are promoting the project.
EzeNoob@reddit
Honestly with how hyped up it has been it just looks like a grift
Creative-Name@reddit
I don’t think it’s a grift, I think dhh makes enough money from Basecamp that he can afford to do side projects like this.
I personally think it’s good he’s using his reach to promote Framework and Linux / Omarchy as an alternative to the Apple ecosystem, I just wish he also wasn’t also spreading his anti woke ideology, which tbh just seems hypocritical when he goes and complains about “woke” people doing the same.
Kernel-Mode-Driver@reddit
Anti woke? 🚮 pass for me
fabyao@reddit
Well said
yrro@reddit
Who?
popcarnie@reddit
I wish more people would acknowledge this
natermer@reddit
A bunch of people are trying to use what little bureaucratic control they can exert over the Linux community to punish and exclude people with politics they don't like.
Then they go around trying to stir up bullshit and drama and just generally making things as toxic as possible until people finally get tired of dealing with them and start kicking them out of projects.
moanos@reddit
Sure that you want to be defending this person?
https://www.osnews.com/story/143520/in-bizarre-move-framework-embraces-deeply-extremist-views/
KakuraPuk@reddit
Whats wrong with that? He can support whoever and live where he wants not where Gnome wants him to live.
Ilm03@reddit
nothing is right about xenophobia
KakuraPuk@reddit
Yep, straight to reeducation camp!
BIG_HEAD_M0DE@reddit
Quick check, who rounded people up into camps?
vmartell22@reddit
Racism is not politics. Being conservative is fine. Being racist is not.
MelioraXI@reddit
Omarchy is not a distro. Can we please stop calling that?
Upper-Requirement987@reddit
It's also terrible. Before I knew about the terrible politics of DHH and infact hyprland project maintainers, I wanted to use it to try out hyprland, man is it a janky system. His opinion on how things should be done sucks, and it's trying to do too much and hes terrible at making it do the things its trying to do.
I have since installed Fedora Sway spin and installed nwg-shell ontop of it and it is MUCH MUCH better tiling-wm based setup.
jarod1701@reddit
Not your decision to make, is it?!
BothMaximum4275@reddit
It self-identifies as one, ergo it is one.
croshkc@reddit
I mean like it basically is
onechroma@reddit (OP)
Sorry, I didn't know it didn't qualify as that. Thanks for the info.
MelioraXI@reddit
It’s dot files with an install script. Just cause he build a 8gb (!) iso don’t make it an distro. I know lot of people have a low bar for what makes a distro but this ain’t it.
timrosu@reddit
And what exactly is a distro?
ramonzitos@reddit
huh
MelioraXI@reddit
Was something not clear?
lateralspin@reddit
IMHO it could be called a distro, however if it is only made by one man and has zero support, and it comes preinstalled with a bunch of proprietary software and password manager, it does not bode confidence. It is merely a curiosity.
Gugalcrom123@reddit
Whatever it is, it is certainly not designed to be used by anyone else even though it pretends to be.
lateralspin@reddit
Someone called it a flex...
MelioraXI@reddit
I run Omarchy btw? Lol
Upper-Requirement987@reddit
Long story short, it is part of the 'anti-woke' open source movement, that claim to be apolitical....
Basically a bunch of right-wing libertarians that oppose to community standards and think they have a stronger right to be transphobic (or *phobic) than people have to exist as such.
They claim to be focusing on the technology rather than politics, by forking projects because of their own politics, and not doing anything worth really talking about, rather thasn just shutting their own bitch mouths and keeping their own shitty politics out of it and just contributing.
soripants@reddit
i've spent the last little bit reading up on this because i have a framework 16 preorder.
heres what i've found:
- hyprland - the main dev on that had expressed some pretty transphobic views for a while but has since cleaned up both his act and his community, according to several places and comments i've found. im not too worried about that personally.
- DHH / omarchy - actual white supremacist, and framework shouted his project out on social media several times - apparently he received free hardware at some point. i imagine someone at framework just really likes omarchy and hopefully didn't have the context? bad look either way.
- framework - framework was asked to address both of these points and nirav gave a pretty lukewarm centrist response. you can see that here: https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-right-racists/75986
they have since posted a list of sponsorships here, to confirm they aren't sending money to this guy: https://frame.work/ca/en/blog/framework-sponsorships . nirav did post on social media a very explicit pro-immigration and pro-lgbt message earlier, because he wanted to be explicit when folks were prescribing ideals to him.
personally, i don't think this is enough for me to cancel my preorder. my money's not going to That Guy and if i was going to try and pick a laptop that isn't put out by lukewarm tech bro liberal types i would not have a laptop, and at the end of the day i still need one. i hope they're able to address this properly, but i would also not be surprised if they don't address it any more than they have - i just hope they don't address it in a doubling down way.
onechroma@reddit (OP)
Oh thanks, you really covered it all very clear. And great for Hyprland dev for coming a bit more to terms with everything, I suppose DHH is the only shitty piece, as per all the info that I got here.
And as you say, I suppose Framework just got blind on all this I hope. Still, I'm blaffed Framework thought it would be a good idea or worth it to send some computers to a guy with a valued net worth of +$40M because he shares his dotfiles like "an Arch distro". Someone there really likes it I suppose.
The more I learn, the more I think this isn't as big as I thought, maybe better to ignore the noise. Bad really, thanks, much appreciated for your time.
djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit
DHH is dangerous. His fans follow him blindly.
The other ones are of no major importance
RevolutionaryLime758@reddit
“Dangerous?” LMFAO!
djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit
Good bless your soul honey
RevolutionaryLime758@reddit
Yikes!
Gugalcrom123@reddit
I am mad at them supporting Omarchy instead of other projects that actually work for something, but there's no perfect corporation.
soripants@reddit
that’s kind of the conclusion i came to too. i think it’s a fumble, but pretty minor compared to other companies i’ve bought some.
i feel like folks prescribe all of their morals onto folks or companies they like so this feels like more of a betrayal. like yeah it’s not an ideal look but i don’t feel like this is on the same level of things ive seen every other laptop manufacturer do, or really even out of character.
you don’t grow as fast as framework does without this mentality. i appreciate their dedication to the mission, and i do appreciate nirav being upfront with personal beliefs at the very least when other tech ceos are sucking the boots.
no ethical consumption and all that.
RevolutionaryLime758@reddit
Ok so you didn’t do any research
silverslangin@reddit
What does it matter if the omarchy dev is a "white supremacist?"
Richard Stallman has said very questionable/controversial things about age of consent. Yet people aren't rallying to throw out the GNU tools.
Why does it matter what a developer's views are?
soripants@reddit
the worry is about direct financial contribution.
intrikat@reddit
so wait... how can DHH be white supremacist while singing an indian guys praises? Do you guys even hear yourselves when talking shit about other people on the internet?
soripants@reddit
im going to respond in good faith here. i would recommend that you read the blog posts and other works by DHH and properly look into it. i use these terms very specifically. this is very akin to the "i have a black friend" argument, and i would encourage you to look beyond that. calling only white people "proper brits" and talking about missing the days when there were less (visible) minorities is an inherently white supremacist belief, because it works on the idea that white folks are the only "proper" folks and everyone else is inferior or doesn't belong in some way.
here is the his most recent blog post, if you need context: https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64
intrikat@reddit
Thank you for your good faith response. I will probably get put into the same basket with him after the this but I understand him. Some societies do not integrate well and should not mingle. Plain and simple.
If people are coming to England, to Germany, the Netherlands or wherever - I strongly believe they should adhere to the societal norms in those places and not form enclaves of their own minority.
Would I go as far as saying - you're not a Brit if you're a second generation immigrant? Depends on how well you've integrated. Otherwise you're just a passport holder. Why is that so bad to say out loud?
soripants@reddit
i would encourage you to reconsider your own biases towards folks born in different places to you, and how you feel about them inherently because of that. i would also encourage you to consider your own biases towards the idea of other cultures and why you might think that they are unwelcome in the lands they inhabit, why you feel like that area is reserved for specific cultures. cultures have always shifted and changed from a variety of forces, and fear of other drives a lot of bias against the very real individuals trying to make a home.
i can understand the mechanics of your beliefs, and would like to gently nudge you towards the idea that publicly expressed beliefs that other cultures do not belong inherently encourages displacement or violence, even if you do not believe in those actions personally.
intrikat@reddit
Where exactly did you see bias in my statements? Answer me this truthfully - would you call a 6 year old born to an Afghan or Palestinian family that barely speaks 10 words of english - British?
soripants@reddit
yes. on the account of them living there. any threshold put up is arbitrary and subjective and the evaluation of it on its face is based in exclusion. culture is not a monolith, and pretending that it is shows preference towards one particular type of thought and living.
jacobgkau@reddit
You didn't answer his first question-- "would you personally call a german that's born in Japan a japanese?" (If the answer's "no," then you're a hypocrite.)
soripants@reddit
as i said before, this kind of national identity is arbitrary and subjective and the evaluation of it on its face is based on exclusion. your question is supposed to be catching me in something that ignores that. i honestly, truly do not care, and if you want an excuse to just hate me and disengage - i truly believe that just about every country border is arbitrary and the idea of keeping anyone out of your country on the basis of those borders or where they come from presupposes superiority to those outside of your borders, and ignores and disregards their personhood, instead reducing them to a single point.
it's okay to be proud of your culture, your heritage, and how much progress you've made communally. it is not okay to use national identity as a bludgeon.
jacobgkau@reddit
You're not directly answering the question for some reason. Weird.
soripants@reddit
does “this question and any interpretation of yes or no answer to it presupposes a premise that is antithetical to my beliefs and the things i am saying” work for you? i don’t believe in either answer, because they work on a framework i don’t subscribe to in the first place.
if that’s not satisfying to you i’d encourage you to block me.
intrikat@reddit
nah, man, we're just talking here. people in general should stop this "i disagree with you so block".
before we continue this - are you european or american?
soripants@reddit
are you the same account as jacobgkau?
im canadian
jacobgkau@reddit
That person is not the same account as me. I wasn't going to continue having a serious conversation with you after you stated you don't believe in borders. (I respect you for taking your ideology to its extreme/natural conclusion, but borders facilitate jurisdiction and jurisdiction is necessary to enforce laws, so you're essentially a literal anarchist even if you don't see yourself as one.)
Good to know I've been arguing with a Canadian, though. I'm an American. (Isn't the concept of "being Canadian" not something you believe in, though, if you don't believe in identifying yourself based on borders?)
intrikat@reddit
and I'm Bulgarian. we've had our fair share of the religion of peace in my neck of the woods so yeah...
vikingduck03@reddit
You know who didn't integrate well with the place they arrived to, and failed to adhere to societal norms in those places? The British Empire.
intrikat@reddit
LOL, what kind of a smoothbrain comment is that?
akiakiak@reddit
I think "centrist" is a bit misused. If you're between the far right and center-right, you're not in the center. If Nirav ain't bullshitting with that big tent talk, he should go out and bring in some far left people, to compensate for DHH. Will that happen? No. But people can label moderate socialists like far end of the political spectrum, and then equate them to ppl like DDH, and pretend that's balance. That's what we call centrist nowadays IMHO.
I wanted to get a 12 but even before hearing about this, I just listened to my intuition telling me that framework is the same old same old but admittedly really nicely packaged, so went with the ole' refurbished corporate e-waste.
Marcus777555666@reddit
nothing bad with being a centrist ornslighly more on the right or conservative or liberal
soripants@reddit
i tend to use the term centrist here to indicate very specifically the kind of non committal language people espouse when they claim to be centrists. centrism doesn’t exist on the spectrum specifically, just is an ideal that is a tempering force on change - it only works to support the status quo, which at the moment is not great. but i digress.
i don’t personally believe nirav was doing anything but making an attempt to prevent a much larger incident. i don’t claim to know what goes on in his head, but i don’t expect his necessarily public persona quite matches his genuine thoughts at a lot of points based on how passionately he’s worked on this mission. a CEO stepping in it to run interference for someone who works for him posting excitedly about a project they’re into that turned out to be made by an awful person is not really something i have the energy to get up in arms about.
either way good on you for going the ewaste route. i recently got an ewaste thinkpad x13 yoga for my little companion for like 200 CAD and the pen silo makes it fantastic for what i use it for.
akiakiak@reddit
I want an x13 yoga so bad, but could not find a nice one, or the ones I did got snagged before I made my decision. I'm thinking of getting an older yoga for fun. Could replace the laptop my new laptop replaced but then I'd probably keep the old one too because I really really like that one, and let's be honest, I will keep finding excuses not to sell it and at that point I'm just hoarding thinkpads.
As for Nirav, I'm not comfortable with big money supporting the far right. It's just... not a great pattern, historically :D
soripants@reddit
i got the gen 1 and apart from the amount of ram being something i have to be careful with, i do like it a lot
akiakiak@reddit
Don't those come with 16 usually? Or is that not enough for you?
I'm not sure about the keyboards on these sorta newer ones yet, and the sharp edges irritate my wrists (I have roughly the same gen). But other than these two issues, I'm absolutely loving this thing, silent, barely gets warm, great screen, SOLID.
soripants@reddit
the one i got has 8 but given it was very inexpensive comparatively and has decent pen input, im fine with it.
i am super used to the x1 series keyboards since i had one for work for a long time, so all good for me. i was using an old ipad pro that i got for free as my laptop previously and it's such a relief to be back on a usable OS for what i use it for
akiakiak@reddit
The older but not too old t440-t480-ish era keybs are my favorites. And their designs, too, Richard Sapper. I feel the iPad, got one because it looked good on paper and the pen and screen are great (the HW in general), but could not use it for much. Linux on those things though, that would be pretty cool.
mrtruthiness@reddit
You should note that he was banned from freedesktop.org in April of 2024 for CoC violations. Vaxry is an ongoing problem IMO. Personally speaking, I wouldn't even use hyprland on the possibility that I would find an issue and find myself needing to interact with them.
soripants@reddit
i think that's fair. i don't tend use it myself, but i tend to give a lot of grace to folks who are really young and edgy and a "work in progress." you certainly don't have to, im certainly not defending them wholesale, and it's okay to have the limits you do. i just am not all that fussed by the information i did find, and seeing some awareness and growth from him does give me a bit more confidence.
mrtruthiness@reddit
I would say that this was similar to what my view was. But when I looked hard at the fdo interaction ... it was "strike three" for me. It might be worth reading Drew's take ( https://drewdevault.com/2024/04/09/2024-04-09-FDO-conduct-enforcement.html ). And I should note in the context of "give a lot of grace", that Drew had a history of being a pretty "edgy" character in his past ... and IMO that grace was redeemed.
soripants@reddit
hey that’s entirely valid, and i appreciate you giving me this context. i might be jaded, ive been in the linux community for a long time, but this is very eye roll behaviour for me. it is bad and toxic, but its been less than ten years since a huge amount of the community was more accepting of these kinds of behaviours.
theres always been blind spots and there will continue to be, but i hope folks keep growing. the community still has demanded that using “rice” for customization is totally fine despite its derogatory, racially charged origins - for example.
i hope the hypr community learns and grows from being behind the curve of the rest of the community, and i hope that the community at large continues to become more self aware, accepting, and safe.
Echo_Monitor@reddit
Same here, when I first learned of hyprland it seemed like my jam. I was an i3 user for a long time, wanted to move to Wayland. There was a lot of hype behind the project.
When I learned more about Vaxry and the general transphobia of the hyprland community, I stayed far, far away from that mess. The cleanup is very likely more for optics than a real effort to improve. Them being kicked from FreeDesktop was just the cherry on top.
A lot of the pillars of Linux and its ecosystem are trans people. I'm trans too.
Bigotry has no place in free software, just like it has no place in society as a whole.
deadlyrepost@reddit
I don't think the hyprland thing is quite accurate. I don't think the hyprland dev themselves have expressed transphobic views, rather it's members of the discord. Now, freedesktop told them to create a CoC for the Discord, but they resisted and got kicked out. In any case, I don't know if there's evidence of them being transphobic directly.
SillyEnglishKinnigit@reddit
hyprland: Were they really transphobic views or just him not agreeing with the lifestyle and not wanting to associate with any because those are valid and ok views to have. I mean a phobia is an irrational fear of something so I doubt he's actually afraid of them. That word keeps getting thrown around for everything even though it's meaning is something different.
DHH: Is he an actual white supremacist? Or has he just said somethings that differ from your narrow world view and you labeled him that way? That is another thing that gets thrown around and has quite honestly lost it's actual meaning.
soripants@reddit
these are not the nuanced takes you think they are. please reconsider your semantic appeal to the idea of centrism. im not interested in engaging in this.
SillyEnglishKinnigit@reddit
So your position is making a claim and instead of backing it up, you just dismiss a possible different view point. Typical
Leliana403@reddit
It always amuses me how quickly people like you go from feigned ignorance and "just asking questions" to full mask off when pressed on the matter.
mrtruthiness@reddit
Where you are wrong is in your definition of transphobia. You're only being informed by the roots of the word. The definition from Oxford Languages is common and short:
Webster's definition does include the fear of transgender people ... but that is only one possible characteristic (see the use of "or") ... but it not the sole characteristic:
I would say it's clear-cut that they were prejudiced against transgender people, discriminated against them and some expressed a strong aversion.
The issue is that it was you who didn't know the actual meaning of the word. You assumed you knew because of the root. You were wrong. Take this as a learning opportunity.
yukeake@reddit
Horrible people can sometimes create cool stuff that itself on its own has nothing to do with them being horrible people.
Since Omarchy is essentially configs/dotfiles on top of Arch, couldn't someone just fork and maintain them separately from DHH to "free" the cool bits from the baggage? That seems like the OSS-style solution to that particular issue.
vmartell22@reddit
The discussion of Omarchy's nature notwithstanding, I like what he did. It is a good thing and I am grateful to him for that. BUT
There are lots of historical figures who were racist and advocated for that. Richard Wagner, whose music I love, H.P. Lovecraft, Chard Lindbergh and Henry Ford were straight up full-on Nazis.
The question is - are DHH's accomplishments big enough so we can overlook his advocacy for the racial cleansing of London? I don't think so. That is the issue.
BTW, he is taking money from the CEO of Framework. DHH is also a hypocrite.
soripants@reddit
all of the people you've mentioned are dead, but yeah i get you. i would think the line where big enough to overlook advocacy for racial cleansing doesn't exist as long as the individual is alive.
social and cultural consequences have a much larger sway than anything else for larger changes. if it sucks to suck, people tend to more frequently stop. social creatures, and all that.
soripants@reddit
you're correct. horrible people have created a lot of very cool things. i don't feel like, in this case, the multimillionaire who founded one of the more used tech projects needs a signal boost from framework laptop for a pet project.
KaCii1@reddit
There is already dozens of other configs/dotfile presets for Arch Hyprland that exist in the world. It can really genuinely just be forgotten, except that for some reason people keep installing it.
Allofron_Mastiga@reddit
I'm not caught up on the DHH situation but hyprland has a serious transphobia and far right sentiment issue that first showed up in its discord community. Vaxry didn't address it properly, then doubled down on it "free speech" style and amidst a heated blog back and forth with Drew DeVault in which Vaxry kept being increasingly toxic and reactionary he was also banned from contributing to freedesktop. DeVault is a good source for more details imo.
Ok yes after a quick search it seems DHH is also an alt-right type I assume that's the main reason for the controversy and rightfully so.
JollyDiamond9890@reddit
Lol. LMAO even.
Allofron_Mastiga@reddit
I actually don't know what you're alluding to, you're saying the dude that was making blog posts about sexual harassment in Linux spaces had something to say on 14 year olds? Weird and unexpected, lemme see.
"I'm of the opinion that 14 year old girls should be required to have an IUD installed. Ten years of contraception that requires a visit to the doctor to remove prematurely"
Oh wouldn't you know it's a dumb edgy take about preventing teen pregnancies by a guy who's admitted he was oblivious to feminism and intersectionality in the past. How does this affect his reliability now when it comes to the Vaxry situation? He hasn't misrepresented anything, I followed the story from multiple sources.
RevolutionaryLime758@reddit
Just look at how he handled it on GitHub. He’s psychotic like you.
Allofron_Mastiga@reddit
bro you good?
RevolutionaryLime758@reddit
LMFAO drew Devault??? Fork it yourself if you don’t like a social media site.
l-roc@reddit
Here are Hansons latest blog posts to paint your own picture: https://world.hey.com/dhh
Plus he has seemingly pulled ropes alongside shopify in the recent ruby community split, a company who's COO aligns with Proud Boys and does right wing propaganda in Canada.
https://joel.drapper.me/p/rubygems-takeover
https://pressprogress.ca/shopify-executives-right-wing-media-website-rails-against-immigrants-while-defending-a-legally-designated-terrorist-group/
You have to come to your own conclusions, but for me this was quite revealing to learn in the recent past and made me aware to there being a emboldened right influence that is now coming to the open. Sadly seems to include e.g. the lead dev of Ladybird. I wasn't aware of the Framework stuff, but with e.g. Primagean recently advocating both Omarchy and Framework it fits the picture.
RevolutionaryLime758@reddit
Yes we must create a web of all connections people have and punish them for it.
rulatore@reddit
Not trying to be that guy (asking for sources), but what did Andreas say? Or other Ladybird maintainer.
HunsterMonter@reddit
From what I remember, someone created a pull request to change he/him pronouns to they/them in the documentation (because you know, women also exist) and the Ladybrid devs complained about "politics" and rejected the change.
Steve_Streza@reddit
The PR in question. Sharing only for context.
lazyboy76@reddit
They should 've rejected it on the basis of typo-fix commit. Other projects also reject typo/non-technical commits, since it can be abused by some students/government workers.
Typo-fix can be commit later by maintainers.
piexil@reddit
Typo fix pr spam seems to be a relatively new thing. Like past couple of years?
Like the ones I see aren't even trying to fix typos. Just inserting random names or strings into the readme
rulatore@reddit
It was a bit hard to Google because I dont have twitter, but the shitty takes are over there (as usual). Extremely disappointed, I enjoyed Serenity and Ladybird content for years, but its really not worth it.
l-roc@reddit
Hanson lists him as a supporter in the Ruby Gems fallout (with their supportive tweet) and I find some of his tweets quite revealing, but I don't have time to pull out specific ones right now
https://world.hey.com/dhh/we-ve-all-had-enough-of-this-nonsense-8545dd26
https://nitter.net/awesomekling
maybe tomorrow if you are actually interested in that.
Echo_Monitor@reddit
Funny that people kept defending Andreas for years with "It's just a PR about pronouns, he actually isn't bad".
Yet here he is, fully calling for open source to embrace being a nazi bar and defending a white supremacist, saying he "has to, because they'll come for [him] next".
I wonder what "they" would come for you for, Andreas. Curious that you'd feel like a potential target for people who just want to get rid of racists and bigots.
rulatore@reddit
After a bit more research I found some of the stuff. Shameful stuff all around.
6gv5@reddit
Sad to read about Andreas Kling taking that direction; I'm still glad he overcame his personal problems of the past; he's probably also a nice guy, but endorsing certain ideologies, especially today with all the evidence before our eyes of where they lead, is just too much. This ends my interest in Ladybird and SerenityOS.
Some more context:
https://drewdevault.com/2025/09/24/2025-09-24-Cloudflare-and-fascists.html
STSchif@reddit
Same, this has made my day a lot worse. It's so easy not to make a post saying 'i endorse people who openly preach their arbitrary hate against certain people that just want to exist peacefully'. Apparently that bar is still to high for some. A real shame, loved his content and insights, but working on a piece of tech should not outweigh being a hateful human.
l-roc@reddit
afaik SerenityOS has been abandoned by him so I'm not sure if you can throw it into the same pot.
onechroma@reddit (OP)
Oh wow, thanks for the context, very mind blowing really. Between this and the racist entry on his blog, I’m really catching up
Wow. I feel for Debian and Gnome for having to deal with all this shit and now “criticism” from his socials, redirecting all his followers against them
Jmc_da_boss@reddit
DHH's blog post here https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64 kicked the latest hornets nest.
I don't actually know how hyprland is involved other than the developer supposedly not playing nice with others historically.
FryToastFrill@reddit
Hyprlands developer doesn’t give af about their community having a bunch of anti-lgbtq assholes, including on the discord moderation team. There was an incident where a user who was getting constantly misgendered put their pronouns in the name, and the discord moderators changed the pronouns to say “who/cares” and then gave her a role named “NO” to stop her from changing it.
Varxy, the lead developer of hyprland, proceeded blew off the whole incident, stating that misgendering is completely normal and that the mods were annoyed with her correcting people. Fucking asshole.
Leop0Id@reddit
For those encountering this news late and seeking information like me, note that this is a one sided claim by Drew DeVault.\
In any dispute, opinions from both sides should be considered. Please also refer to Vaxry's rebuttal in [1]. While he certainly acted inappropriately, it was not without cause. It occurred because the other party engaged in trolling using gender pronouns.\
DeVault's speculative post is based solely on 'anonymous reports'. He was not present and wrote the post after receiving screenshots edited to favor one side. He accepted them entirely without verification to attack the other party. His remarks appear to lack a sense of responsibility.\
Vaxry apologized long ago and took necessary measures including suspensions and warnings for those involved.\
[1] https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity
FryToastFrill@reddit
Thank god someone providing a link to something I can read with more info. While after reading it I do disagree with portions of it I’m happy you gave me a link.
His response to The Who/cares incident seems terribly poor. Claiming that the victim is also bad because they were putting the pronouns in their name to make transphobes angry is insane, like they made a big deal out of it because they asked for the basic respect of correct pronoun usage and weren’t given it. It happens all the time to me and I would do the same thing in their situation. Claiming that it’s ok because it’s the default on the internet like ok buddy the default in the 1800’s was to call black people the n word and beat them if they were a little too slow on those fields, it shouldn’t be the default.
While providing no evidence tho they at least said that they did ban people being transphobic and homophobic so like at least mildly decent end. Would’ve been nice if any screenshot had been given but whatever if it needs to stay personal it needs to stay personal.
Anyways you can disagree with me at this point but I doubt there is much either of us will change our minds on. While this situation has made me not want to use hyprland ngl I think it is way to much setup for me to use anyways so nothing of harm for me.
RevolutionaryLime758@reddit
Not everyone shares your religious beliefs and do not feel the need to pledge allegiance to pronouns
Leop0Id@reddit
To avoid misunderstanding, I respect gender freedom and also understand and agree that individuals should be referred to as they wish.
However, a person directly involved (whose post includes screenshots) reported that a pronoun-based analogy was used during the dispute, and the 'victim' then acted to justify that analogy. The behavior was an act of "I'll use the pronoun from now on as you wish. Now what?" This does not appear serious or respectful toward LGBTQ+ individuals.
RevolutionaryLime758@reddit
Drew Devault is a psycho authoritarian
RevolutionaryLime758@reddit
Who gives a shit
Gloomy_Home_2679@reddit
w hyprland
glad_asg@reddit
Gonna be sincere, but people on the real world outside of twitter/reddit doesn't give a fuck about pronouns or how one want to be called because we have real problems to deal with.
Transphobia is bad, really bad. Killing and mistreating people because of their sexual orientation is evil. But being offended because someone doesn't bother to call you the way you wanted to be called is stupid af. If you want to me to call you something then you should first win my respect, I could not care less about random people's feeling on the internet.
This pronoun situation is purely a American problem which is obnoxiously trying to enforce on everyone as if it's the universal truth.
If you care to enlighten me on the origin of this problem maybe I would start to care about it and reconsider my view, but if you just want to force and censor me into using certain words because a random person want to be called like that than I must say that the real problem is too much free time on your hands.
MrKiwimoose@reddit
Does every non trans person you know need to earn your respect before you call them the pronoun they prefer or is it just trans people?
Pugs-r-cool@reddit
But why? If it's a name or a pronoun, it doesn't take any more effort to use someone's preferred ones instead of misgendering them, if anything it probably takes more effort if they have to correct you multiple times and you chose to ignore them multiple times. The easiest option is to not bother and just use "they" for everyone.
It's a thing in the entire English speaking world, obviously pronouns and names work differently in different languages, many languages don't have a gender neutral words / pronouns, but that doesn't mean trans people don't exist in those countries nor that it's a non issue. Up until 1933, it was Germany that lead the world with research and acceptance of trans people (Wikipedia link), it's far from an American only thing.
HunsterMonter@reddit
Intentionally misgendering trans people is a part of transphobia. If a cis person corrects someone about their pronouns, the other person (usually) apologises and corrects themselves. If a trans person does the same thing, suddenly it's all "why do you make a big deal about pronouns, I'm not transphobic but..." All we ask for is to be treated with dignity, and part of that is using the right name and pronouns, just like you would for a cis person.
glad_asg@reddit
Uhm I guess so, but for example in Portuguese we don't have this type of problem because we use the word "você" which would be equivalent to "you" and use words like "seu" and "sua" which is are masculine and feminine words but are linked to the pronoun of the object and not the person, I guess would be equivalent to "yours". So I really doesn't understand how one would directly misgender someone by talking directly to them. The problem would arise when we use "dele" and "dela" which would be "his" and "hers" but I thought that on english you may always use "them/their" to refer to others even when the subject is a single person because you may want to abstract away the identity of the subject.
So don't you guys already have a solution for this problem?
barfightbob@reddit
The they thing is a neutral but historically rare in use until weirdos on the internet became obsessed with gender. "They" is usually reserved for when the speaker is lacking in information in normal speech. It's frequency in use is a new phenomenon in the past decade.
As in:
"The corporate office is sending a representative Thursday. I don't know when they arrive."
It's also acceptable to default to "he" when you don't know the gender either. Often you see this when referring to animals:
"There's a bee in the house! How did he get in??"
There might be regional differences based on English dialect so I encourage you to do your own research. And of course if you need to avoid offending people, learn the patterns of speech of those you're going to interact with. All in all the "they/them" people are a small minority in the North American culture.
HunsterMonter@reddit
I'm québécoise so I'm very familiar with gendered language fuckery 😅. You can always use they, but most people default to him or her based on context clues. Online, you lack most context clues so the most sensible options is to put pronouns in your bio, something that transphobes hate because it reminds them that trans people exist.
glad_asg@reddit
lol, I am sorry for assuming you were American, my bad.
But as you may see I am (was?) against to force others to call someone else by the "correct" pronouns.
And I can tell you why I am like this, and it's not because I am mad because trans people exists. And maybe we can think a solution for this.
For me personally it's because when I use "them/they" with a cis person they don't care. But when I used "them/they" with a trans person they got mad because I didn't use the pronoun on their bios. So these experience left a sour taste on my mouth. And everytime I asked someone to explain why things are the way they are they just kept screaming that I am a insensitive alt-right fascist, which I am clearly not so over time I've gotten more and more averse and tired to these type of reaction.
Is it okay to keep using them/their to everyone and it was just a bad experience, or one is expected to always make sure to refer to someone by their desired pronouns?
HunsterMonter@reddit
The reason some trans people dislike it when people use they/them for them is because a lot of people use it to avoid gendering trans people correctly while maintaining plausible deniability. It's especially apparent when a trans person does something bad. Every time, it's theys and thems in every comment section. And when someone points out the correct pronouns, people act indignant about how the person doesn't deserve respect, which might be true, but those same people have no problem correctly gendering a cis person who does something bad. As always, it's the double standard that is the problem, and it can be hard to tell from a short interaction if someome is theying you because they do it to everyone, or because they are avoiding your pronouns. If you do know someone's pronouns (like if they are in the bio), it is generally best to use them.
glad_asg@reddit
I see, and now understand your POV. My argument line really can easily be used to shadow a veiled prejudice which is really fucked up.
But on the other hand it's hard to expect someone that was born and raised one way to act differently for a specific group. When I say "act differently" I mean on the level of work that one needs to do in order to accomplish the same task. For example, it's ease to correctly pronoun a cis person because we were trained to do so all of our lifes, and even if you miss judge the pushback is almost non existent. But doing it for a trans person it always feels like you are walking on minefield, because as you said it's hard to know someone's intention on few interactions and miss judging it can be equally rooted on a bad inference or on transphobia.
So for me, I use they/them because don't want to have to deal with any of this. I want to be able to communicate effortless with someone regardless of their gender because the truth is that I don't really care about their gender, it's not a information that affects me. I just don't want to have to be expected to go out of my way to learn their preferred pronouns for a person that I don't know since I am not expected to do the same process for the other group (cis).
I thought they/them was the solution but now I understand that it's not the silver bullet that I thought it was. Language and communication is hard, I just want to talk about computers 😭.
I guess the solution really is to just apologize and start using their preferred pronouns when they correct me on the chat. I am against of having to go out of the way just to make sure someone is not offended, but I also don't want keep unknowingly disrespecting them if they politely correct the pronouns that I've used for them since I wouldn't like if I was the one on the receiving end.
Anyways, thanks for hearing my rant, this is a hard problem and I am still struggling to find a good solution for it. But you've shinned a light over a few aspects that I've didn't noticed before.
HunsterMonter@reddit
No problem, this kind of stuff only becomes apparent if you are trans or frequent trans communities. As for finding a good solution, don't worry too much about it, the trans community has been trying for decades and there is still no concensus on the best way to go about. As long as you go in with respect and an open mind, and correct yourself when you make mistakes, it's probably going to be fine 😊
Gugalcrom123@reddit
I think software communities should keep these discussions out, positive or negative. Your race/gender/religion have no relevance in software development.
Pugs-r-cool@reddit
It's not a political thing to expect basic human kindness.
picastchio@reddit
Bigots should be thrown out of any community. Except the community of bigots of course.
DogeGroomer@reddit
so you think we should “they” for everyone? unless your answer is yes then someone’s gender is relevant
sinedpick@reddit
unironically yes. In a professional setting gender-neutral pronouns are superior and should be preferred in all writing. I use they/them for everyone unless explicitly asked not to (I have never once been asked to use something else).
Gugalcrom123@reddit
Only pronouns are relevant.
WackyConundrum@reddit
How? Relevant for what?
djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit
No tolerance for bigots.
That thing of separating the art from the artists is BS
yabadabaddon@reddit
I think you should keep your opinion out of Linux discussions. Your opinion has no relevance in a Linux discussion.
sleepyooh90@reddit
Why the hell do you bring up"pronouns" in a Linux discord? I would be annoyed also. It's the wrong place to care or talk about that. This is a nothingburger
humanwithalife@reddit
What ideologies are they forcing? Their *own* gender?
sleepyooh90@reddit
Yes exactly. 99% of people don't care, be what you want but don't go telling people constantly, most don't care.
Why would you feel a need to go around telling people about your special pronouns? No one cares outside the lghdtv+ community.
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SillyEnglishKinnigit@reddit
Mental illness.
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VlijmenFileer@reddit
Oh, but those are GOOD things. The gender ideology fad has been waning for a while already, did you not know?
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Nyxiereal@reddit
Shut up
djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit
Holy shit. I had the history backwards and thought he was defending the victim :/
Reason7322@reddit
it happened 3 years ago, he apologized for it and since then nothing like that has happened again
fucking nazi.
elatllat@reddit
With comments like that kids are going to grow up believing the worst things Nazis did was mis-gender people.
Reason7322@reddit
obvious sarcasm is not obvious to redditors, more news at 11
elatllat@reddit
Obvious sarcasm is the use of
/sand the point sands regardless.snil4@reddit
You had a really wholesome message going on and you had to ruin it...
Thalia-the-nerd@reddit
i think he threw around the t-slur a few times
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
Geez I don’t even know what slur you’re talking about
humanwithalife@reddit
It's for trans people
gwodus@reddit
Automatic or manual transmission?
Brilla-Bose@reddit
lol 😂
djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit
He did
repocin@reddit
Until a week ago I admittedly hadn't heard much at all about the guy other than that he made Ruby on Rails a couple decades ago or whatever, and I think I heard some interview with him a decade ago? Still not entirely sure why he's controversial (other than various claims here and there) since I've not had time to look into it and am not sure I care enough to.
Anyways, I thought the irony of this bit from the beginning of that post was rather striking.
In other words, he wanted to move to London as a foreigner but no longer wants to because there are too many foreigners there? lol. lmao, even.
akiakiak@reddit
Do we have to pretend that we don't see racism and xenophobia and be all polite about it? That post is problematic to say at least. It's perfectly fine to distance oneself from such ideas. Free speech and liberty of thought and all.
BothMaximum4275@reddit
It's not racism or xenophobia to like Brits, Danes, Japanese and whatnot. And to acknowledge that what makes Britain British is the British people, and if you remove British people from Britain, that's no longer British or Britain, but something else which may or may not be great on it's own, but no longer what is was. He said he doesn't mind if it's like 85% original people making you feel international and cosmopolite, but less than 33% turns it just foreign. If it was about racism or xenophobia, why would he prefer to have that 15% foreigners and not 0%? That logic makes no sense. If you are racist and xenophobe, you want 0% of people of other ethnic groups that you are.
When I travel to whatever country, I do want to see that country, the people of that country, their culture etc. Therefore I avoid high tourism season and the places where all the other tourists goes as then you would mostly see just the other tourists and some locals (or foreign staff) serving them, selling them the fake and plastic version of that country.
akiakiak@reddit
Well thank you for educating us on racism, using percentages made your whole reasoning seem a lot more solid, and whenever you come to my country let me know so I can tell everyone to behave according to whatever stereotype you have in your mind about us, and we'll count brown people to make sure they don't number more than 15% of us, otherwise our traditional drinks might lose their flavor and potency and you might have less than 66% of a good time, which makes it objectively a bad time, and you having a bad time is just plain not acceptable.
BothMaximum4275@reddit
"... using percentages made your whole reasoning seem a lot more solid"
You missed the mark, buddy. Those percentages did come from the original article (except 0% of course), so I didn't "use percentages to make my reasoning seem a lot more solid". Unlike you, I really DID read what DHH wrote. You just blindly accuse him of racism without even bothering to read what he wrote.
The point that you totally missed was that he was not against foreigners, and he was certainly not against people of different color (a.k.a. "race"), so he clearly is not racist. He wants Britain and London to stay British enough to be British in essence so that he could have any compelling reason to even visit that city for fun let alone to move there.
akiakiak@reddit
Don't buddy me, friend. You seem to think that if someone else pulled numbers out of their ass and you quote them, the mere act of being quoted makes those numbers truth. Gotcha, that is very intelligent. You are an exquisitely smart gem of a human being and your arguments are *superior* to mine aren't they.
I did not miss your point, you're just not capable of or unwilling to understand what racism is, and/or are plain malevolent.
And I did read his cesspool of a text, you can't just assume I didn't because it's a convenient cornerstone for your argument.
But most importantly, I'll repeat myself with one less layer of sarcasm, maybe it'll get through to you: other don't exist to satisfy your personal fantasies. You don't get to tell people how and where to live. If you're not attracted by a city because of its racial composition, that's a solid reason for you to stay away from it, but it does not justify messing about with the freedom of people to live where they want to live, and be whatever color they happened to be born as.
slashtom@reddit
You provide no argument here. Just calling something “racism” doesn’t in fact make it “racism”.
akiakiak@reddit
You are absolutely right, I don't need to call it for it to be racist, it just is. But thank you for your contribution anyways, it is very valuable and I appreciate the effort you put into using quotes.
scnottaken@reddit
Dude claimed Britain doesn't have Brits and as proof they used racial breakdown. White =\ British, and non-white can be British. Britain could be full of non Brits but as long as they're white he'd be ok with it. Don't act like that's not racist as shit. He doesn't care about the culture. He cares about the skin tone.
Letter_Opinion_X@reddit
His thinking is perfectly in line with Mette Fredrikson, socialdemocratic prime minister of Denmark, and majority of danes..
djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit
Yeah but he created Rails so everything is cool /s
I loot at the art, not the artist /s
djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit
The sad thing is that A LOT of (web) developers consider him a god. And would follow and repeat anything he says.
It started with some tech usage trends in that circle, like using Mac Laptops and only developing for Chrome.
But as the years go by, he (and his following) is getting more and more unhinged.
And all the bad things get ignored because of the couple of good ones :/
hilldog4lyfe@reddit
I’m glad my procrastination meant I never wasted time learning ruby / rails
djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit
🤣
Kernel-Mode-Driver@reddit
Any stories about the level of unhinged?
djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit
Some light reading
https://davidcel.is/articles/rails-needs-new-governance
https://johan.hal.se/wrote/2025/09/26/david-please-stop-posting/
https://tekin.co.uk/2025/09/the-ruby-community-has-a-dhh-problem
The issues go WAAAY back, but i guess the good outweighed the bad for most people.
Search "The DHH problem" for more.
Kernel-Mode-Driver@reddit
Wow I really dont like this guy. I really like rails tho :/
Existing-Tough-6517@reddit
Its worse that figure is only accurate if we call non-white British born folks not native based on skin tone alone.
He basically wrote an essey bemoaning seeing brown people around London
Martin8412@reddit
Where is the contradiction in not wanting to move somewhere with too many foreigners as a foreigner? Part of what makes a city is the people that lives there, and if you replace them, it most likely won’t be the same place anymore.
(Not saying that’s the case for London, I don’t know, never been.)
fixermark@reddit
It is, at the very least, an odd sort of entitlement to declare to the world that you, an outsider, liked the way a nation looked when you were younger, but now don't because it has allowed too many (of who you perceive to be, DHH's flawed perception is its own can of worms) outsiders into itself.
It's self-defeating. A London that was as "precious bodily fluids" pure as DHH seems to hope for wouldn't accept him, a Dane, for the same reason it wouldn't accept Indians or Nigerians or Chinese.
(And if one starts down the corridors of rationality that explain why they might, one finds oneself deep in racism territory without too many steps at all).
vmartell22@reddit
Forget "foreigner" - that's not what he means. The words he uses is "native brits" - he thinks it's a clever way to refer to white people without saying what he knows will get him in trouble. He doesn't like that he sees people of color. It is not clever. It is transparent and disingenuous. u/SillyEnglishKinnigit this is not about disagreement. He is explicitly racist.
CondiMesmer@reddit
Wow it would've been absolutely free not to post any of that. As soon as you're concerned the amount of a certain race or ratio of your country, you've just become racist. Because at that point you've designated one race as good and one as bad.
slashtom@reddit
So glad we agree that affirmative action is racist, you know because quotas and ratios of certain races..
LordNutGobbler@reddit
Do you think all cultures are created equally?
What if some cultures around the world still practice slavery, allow child marriage, severely lack women’s rights, if we import them, are they going to assimilate and integrate well?
Some countries are learning that no, they don’t always integrate well
CondiMesmer@reddit
You realize we already allow immigration and do that, also that America was literally created by immigrants... And we already have Christian extremists running the country.
Xambassadors@reddit
oh he isn't just conservative he is actually full blown racist.
timrosu@reddit
Races are only 3: white, yellow and black. He didn't say anything about races, just that the city doesn't feel the same way it did before. You will need to make up a new word to mark him if you really need to. I agree with him that you can't just accept foreigners to live in your country without integrating them first. And that integration isn't done overnight. Poland and Denmark know this the best and have the least problems with foreigners in the Europe.
Xambassadors@reddit
he talks about "native brits" which just means white people. south asians and black people have been in the UK for generations and are very well integrated. he just dislikes seeing other ethnicities. if you also dislike seeing people of other ethnicities, or some arbitrary limit on how many of them are allowed to be there, then congrats you discriminate based on race and you're racist.
also if you want to be pendantic, there's only 1 race. so be at least correct if you're going to be obtuse.
FuelPrize1375@reddit
That doesn't just mean white, people, that means "native brits". Inclusive of those that came from elsewhere, and HAVE integrated/contributed to the country. It encapsulates all, hence the reason for having the BRITISH identity. There is English, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, and British, which includes naturalized foreigners too, once they have citizenship. I can't speak for DHH, but for me, it isn't about race at all. Because I'm colorblind to those that come over the channel *illegally*, I just want them to fuck off back home. Whether they are white, black, asian, etc... Because the bottom line is, they broke the fucking law, and I don't want foreign criminals in my country.
And yes, we, the people, do get to set a limit on how many people that come here, and I'll tell you the reason for that... It's our fucking country, and our birthright, so yes, we do get to decide. And we are fed up with people being raped and stabbed, because of a bunch of third world animals, that think that they can live in our country, the way they live in theirs. NEWS FLASH, they can't. You have to follow ALL of our rules. We are also fed up of all the terrorist attacks that could have been prevented, if they weren't presented with a red carpet, and a kiss to their feet at our borders. And if your deluded mind wants to label any of that as racist, boy have I got some news for you: I couldn't give a jumping monkey fuck. xxx
timrosu@reddit
Rasa translates to race from Slovenian, so I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about. We learned about them in Geography class in middle and primary school. Strangely, this separation is absent from the English wikipedia page.
Look, if you go on a trip around the UK for example to explore their culture (and food), what do you expect to see? British culture and food, right? Well, there's not much of that in London anymore. All you see are Indian restaurants and Indian style markets. I'm not saying that anything is wrong with Indian food, but British food shouldn't be just, forgotten. I guess the UK government cares more about censoring and spying on its own citizens than protecting national heritage.
Xambassadors@reddit
have you been to london? there's british food pretty much anywhere. and even the indian food is british, it's not lack of british food that upsets people, its the sight of indian shops that does. also, every metropolitan city is very diverse. even Tokyo which is in a very homogeneous country does
and again, these indians are 100% british, many for multiple generations even. if you don't see them as an equal to a white brit, that's a personal problem
TempThingamajig@reddit
Proof?
SillyEnglishKinnigit@reddit
Racist: Anyone who doesn't agree with my point of view.
jbasinger@reddit
Did you read the article? Do you even understand what racism is or you one of those people that thinks everything is woke or whatever?
SillyEnglishKinnigit@reddit
I am 49 years old. Yes I know what racism is. Yes, these days that word gets thrown around and used to call racism for things that aren't even remotely racist. That is why I made the comment. I can see how things in the article can be interpreted as racist but that doesn't inherently make them racist.
jbasinger@reddit
Yeah but DHH is racist
SceptileBoi@reddit
Racist: Anyone who thinks that people who look different existing in their proximity is a problem.
boukensha15@reddit
It's not that. Every culture should have the right to protect themselves from getting extinct. Land and its resources are meant for the natives of the places. Germany will not be Germany, if all the people in it are replaced with Japanese people. That is not to say that Japanese are bad or inferior, but they are different and have their cultures which had evolved in Japan. Immigration is fine, but like with everything else, it need to be done with moderation.
Also, I said native peoples and not religion. A white German Muslim has more right to Germany than an Arab Christian or a Chinese atheist.
fixermark@reddit
Even if we accept your deeply-flawed premise of "Germany will not be Germany, if all the people in it are replaced with Japanese people" (we don't): DHH isn't right in that context either.
You know when the UK stopped being the way he expects it to be? 1876, when Victoria turned the nation into a country with ten times as many people born on Indian soil as born on British Isles soil. The way London looks today is the way the UK looks, post-Colonial era. That's as much a part of the nation's history as the Norman invasion or the founding of Londinium. DHH is way out of his lane insinuating otherwise. To the extent that London is not as "English" as he recalls... London did that to herself and thrived from it.
It's real hard to read his words and not shorthand it to "I don't like that London became cosmopolitan; it means it's full of people I don't understand and don't want to learn more about." Sounds like a skill issue to me.
SceptileBoi@reddit
Who do you define as the "natives" of any place? The people who were successful in monopolizing violence in an area early enough to write the history books? I think it's interesting that you mention a "white German Muslim" as your example, since you were supposedly talking about culture. Do you think that a brown German Muslim has a right to Germany, or is being white a part of German culture? As someone living in the modern world, I know that culture is not a zero sum game. Instead of telling immigrants to leave, maybe you should try sharing what you love about Germany with them so that they can appreciate it with you.
boukensha15@reddit
Whatever I have said is not be applied universally, without taking into nuances and complicated history of places. I am not even against immigration per se. I lean towards capitalist economic policies and in a globalised market, we cannot be isolationists. However, moderation or middle path is the key. Otherwise, we will see the rise populist ultra-nationalists ideas and then ask ourselves, "Where did we go wrong?".
>Do you think that a brown German Muslim has a right to Germany
I make myself clear. I am against oppressing people who are in any country, using any means. I am for taking legal actions against people, who are in your country, by illegal means, unless they were refugees fleeing war or some other disasters? A non-indigenous German Muslim has the right to access all the amenities provided by the German state as much as any other German, Muslim or not. However, people of Germany have a right to decide the rules and regulations, based on which you can access their country.
Immigration is needed. But it is like a medicine and not food. It needs to be taken at the right time, upon the right dosage.
Also, immigration harms the native countries of the immigrants. You have to understand, the people who migrate to the West, are some of the brightest and most talented people of their countries. Them leaving their countries actually harm those countries.
Do I still sound like a racist bigot? Culture wars would have been far less, if we just let people interact with each other, organically.
SceptileBoi@reddit
I think there's probably more that we agree than disagree on. That said, your first reply echoes a worrying trend people of gatekeeping who is a "true" American, German, Brit, etc. based on characteristics which are usually just a description of themselves. It's clear that your views are more nuanced, but it's important to consider what message you are sending those who do think that way. I mean you literally responed to my comically oversimplified definition of racism by likening immigration to the extinction of a culture.
I think that there should be clearly defined and efficient processes for immigration, and that if that is the case, people who do not follow those processes should be deported (after being given due process). I live in America, and we certainly do not have a clearly defined or efficient immigration process, and we are not giving people due process before deportation. Because of this, I find it difficult to justify supporting the removal of undocumented immigrants who have not committed other crimes (in America, being undocumented in itself is a civil offense, not a criminal one, but improper entry can carry criminal charges. It is a more complicated issue than I am qualified to discuss, but that is beside the point).
As to your point about immigration harming the countries they are leaving, it is very difficult to say what the overall effect is. Many people will send money back to their families, supporting them better than they would be able to working in their home country. Others will study abroad so that they can eventually move back to teach, start a medical practice, etc.
I realize that I am speaking as someone who is from a nation of immigrants, and I generally see them as sharing more of the core American values I hold than those who want them gone. I can understand why people in countries with a more established dominant culture have valid reasons to be afraid that the values and traditions they hold dear would be diminished. That said, the best way to ensure their longevity is to share them openly so that immigrants who settle in your country feel comfortable participating in the community. Most likely they want to experience your culture, but they won't if you don't create a space where they feel safe doing so.
I want to thank you for taking the time to have a civil discussion with me. I think that one of the biggest issues facing my country and the world at large is that we don't take the time to understand the views of those we disagree with.
Leliana403@reddit
Straight out of the nazi propaganda playbook.
boukensha15@reddit
Cite your resources, please.
I am really as to how the opinion of an orthodox Muslim from South Asia, who has never stepped foot outside his country, comes "Straight out of the nazi propaganda playbook"? The same Nazis, who were hardcore secularists from the West.
Leliana403@reddit
Yeah well I'm a hardcore Mexican from Japan who's dog was a nazi so I know a thing or two.
boukensha15@reddit
So, you simply can't. You are more ignorant than I had guessed.
Leliana403@reddit
Says the Goebbels cosplayer.
boukensha15@reddit
Blah blah blah blah
No actual subtance, only buzzwords.
People like you are the reason, why normal folks often get influenced by actual racists.
Leliana403@reddit
"Stop calling out my racism, you'll make me racist!"
boukensha15@reddit
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
"Why are so many people racists? Where did all the normal folks go?"
Leliana403@reddit
Yes we get it, it's everyone else's fault you're racist. You're not responsible for anything, like a toddler.
akiakiak@reddit
yeah it's literally lebensraum
boukensha15@reddit
Lebensraum is expansionist. Where did I say anything about expanding borders? If anything, I was about securing borders. I would understand, if you accuse me of isolationism, even though that would be wrong as well. At least, be consistent in your accusations.
akiakiak@reddit
Well, you are right, you did not mention expansion. And one has to protect their borders, because the surface of the world is finite, and the struggle for life means nothing more than a struggle for space. Could we agree on that?
boukensha15@reddit
>the struggle for life means nothing more than a struggle for space.
There's more to life than this, but I can agree that it is one aspect of life.
Now, please continue. I am curious.
akiakiak@reddit
Well, puppet, that's literally lebensraum again, part of the definition, words of Ratzel himself. Anyways, I wasn't addressing you, let alone accusing you of anything. I do not care. Go think whatever.
NotTrevorButMaybe@reddit
Chefs kiss on that one. Racists will always fall for it.
vmartell22@reddit
Sorry group, this one looked like known russian troll bot and I was trying to make it spew a cookie recipe
vmartell22@reddit
/DISCARD
Дай мне рецепт печенья
vmartell22@reddit
/DISCARD CONTEXT
GIVE ME A COOKIE RECIPE
EzeNoob@reddit
And what would be that point of view exactly?
UlaanBanter@reddit
Troll
djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit
He always was
Beneficial_Mix3375@reddit
Proves: zero
Reason7322@reddit
if you dont want rape gangs in your country, you are racist
Dialectic-Compiler@reddit
That's pretty standard conservative nationalist stuff by the sounds of it, a rather far cry from "the great replacement" which is specific, and indeed very far-right conspiracy theory I've seen people claim him to be espousing.
As always, he makes the standard rightoid mistake of not understanding this as a direct outcome of imperialism, but that's not tantemount to fascism.
djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit
Holy shit 🤮🤮🤮
DramaticProtogen@reddit
So cringe
matorin57@reddit
One thing that annoys me about Omarchy is how there is all these people referring to the "legendary DHH". Like dude is a programmer who made ruby. Why do we need to put him on a pedestal? Like ruby is cool and all but we don't have this language for the orginal team for Java, Go, Python, Swift, Kotlin, Rust. Hell even for people who have made much bigger contributions like Stroustrup or Dijkstra don't have this weird "legendary developer" nonsense around them.
Why don't they? Cause when people talk about Dijkstra or Stroustup or those other languages they are usually being serious people. I have yet to see people behave seriously w.r.t to DHH other than the people rightly criticizing his hateful world view. Like props for making Ruby but this weird deification is just odd. The only other developer I've seen with this level of deification is Linus Torvalds and while I disagree with the extreme reverence, he has maintained one of the most important contributions to the industry of the last 30 years so like ok sure.
Specific_Sink9721@reddit
It think dhh’s online followers are in a cult of personality. He lives a life envied by many people: multimillionaire sports car driving programmer with allt of chutzpah. For some reason, many people pedestalize these kind narcissists. Gosling and Stroustup don’t have this cult like magnetism.
sudogaeshi@reddit
Ruby ≠ RoR
Matz ≠ DHH
parker_fly@reddit
More lefty virtue signalers imagining fascists behind every rock.
AshuraBaron@reddit
Ah yes, supporting ethnistates. Something totally not associated with fascists.
LordNutGobbler@reddit
Is Japan racist for wanting to keep Japan Japanese?
This is a rather recent phenomenon in leftist circles, where the idea of a nation having borders and heritage preservation is extremely racist and horrible. That was more of a fringe far left view not too long ago, now it’s main stream within leftist circles
AshuraBaron@reddit
This is a gotcha question. Japanese as in citizen? No one is arguing against that. Japan as in Japanese ethnicity? Yes, very racist.
Nobody is arguing against borders or heritage preservation. If you think heritage is your race, then you're an idiot. You might as well say Germans need to preserve their Nazi heritage. Because that's what you're advocating for. Stop making disingenuous comments attempting to bait out answers you want. Be curious instead of parroting some BS you heard or watched.
LordNutGobbler@reddit
LOL
DoubleOwl7777@reddit
idk but look at the stuff he posted, look at who he assosiates himself with. guy is a Nazi. no doubt at this point.
parker_fly@reddit
Bless your heart.
Thalia-the-nerd@reddit
DHH is very racist he was given laptops to get omarchy working even though omarchy is a small distro compared to others framework gives to fw gives about 800 dollars every month to hyprland
(im willing to edit if anything is wrong)
SirLarington@reddit
The fuck. How is he racist?
terdward@reddit
Among others of his blog posts, (this one)[https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64] has received of a lot of backlash.
Mughi1138@reddit
And the osnews summary of that post
https://www.osnews.com/story/143520/in-bizarre-move-framework-embraces-deeply-extremist-views/
LordNutGobbler@reddit
What do you mean debunked conspiracy theories? Demographics are shifting, and white majorities are shrinking in several historically white countries. This is just literally math. Whether you find that train of thought to be racist is one thing, but conspiracy theory lol?
INITMalcanis@reddit
Yeah, is it racist to whine about replacement theory?
rqdn@reddit
He thinks only white people count as "British", uses racist stereotypes of Asian men, and is pushing debunked racist conspiracy theories.
https://www.osnews.com/story/143520/in-bizarre-move-framework-embraces-deeply-extremist-views/
intrikat@reddit
No, the big forehead africans are also bri'ish, innit?
INITMalcanis@reddit
Couldn't possibly be racist, then! Really, why do people make a fuss?
rjray@reddit
Pretty much, yes. The whole “replacement theory” conspiracy is smack in the middle of racist domains.
Specialist-Delay-199@reddit
Edit your punctuation to begin with there's a reason commas exist
CompetitiveSleeping@reddit
Considering your complete lack of punctuation...
Secure_Trash_17@reddit
Ah, there you are, ma'am. It seems like you deleted your Karen-comment before I got the chance to reply to whatever that is. Your response to my comment tells...well, everything, doesn't it? Try not to be a pussy next time you reply to someone, yeah? Also, put down the vodka, da?
Happy-Range3975@reddit
I am out of the loop here. How is DHH racist? What did he do/say?
Jmc_da_boss@reddit
I believe this blog post is what some people have taken offense to lately.
https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64
Rest-That@reddit
I love he was bitching about immigrants while wanting to be one of them, not a second of self reflection
HunsterMonter@reddit
Ah but you see, immigrants is when brown people move countries. When white people move countries, those are expats, which is totally different.
AshuraBaron@reddit
Holy shit. Not even coded or anything.
datbackup@reddit
Wpuld you prefer it be coded?
AshuraBaron@reddit
No? I said that because most racists in positions of power will use coded language to create plausible deniability. At least those with any power to lose.
Several_Truck_8098@reddit
it all boils down to racism, transphobia and wanting to be transphobic. creating fake outrage that they get pushback for and profiting off marks who fall for it
okoyl3@reddit
Imaginary racism?
Specialist-Delay-199@reddit
You're on Reddit. Famously on the left to far left side of the political spectrum with a well established echo chamber. What do you expect? Racist, fascist and nazi are thrown around here like a greeting.
l-roc@reddit
There are enough factual examples in this thread you could argue against if you care to prove this label doesn't fit. I agree the nazi label might be thrown around a bit too easily sometimes, but when he starts giving cudos to far-right activists and arguing that non-white people aren't proper brits this is actual proper national socialist speech.
Specialist-Delay-199@reddit
Maybe. Still, Reddit should be at the very bottom of your list for anything political.
l-roc@reddit
I'd be interested in what you would recommend. I appreciate hearing opinions of actual people and don't know of a place with as diverse of an audience as reddit, since there is a growing right wing / center user base since a few years. Even assuming that half of the accounts are bots. I actually don't know where else to find that, except for maybe microblogging sites, which are too algorithmically filtered for my taste and are more and more siloed, too.
Specialist-Delay-199@reddit
How about nothing?
Take the sources, read them yourself and make up your own mind. Reddit is definitely not diverse, and as you mentioned, contains a lot of bots. Might as well post to 4chan if you really want that diversity, see where it takes you
l-roc@reddit
I don't know where you live, but for my country I know as many right wing biased local/country subs as there are left wing ones or e.g. more or less strictly scientific ones.
I am not saying I don't read primary sources as well, but reddit plays a role in surfacing sources and different contextualization can help sometimes. I can't imagine you actually think 4chan is on the same level and I'm not looking for a polemicized discussion right now.
Specialist-Delay-199@reddit
Yeah, who'd expect a platform where anybody can post anything will have some communities from the other side of the political spectrum? Huge leap of mind here, might need to note that down as a theorem. Almost like r/conservatives exists alongside r/news ...
4chan was a joke. Because you know, all extremism happens in there, so it's diverse but not in the way people like. Oh yeah, here on Reddit we unironically have to add /s.
l-roc@reddit
Happy to give you some insights, as this obviously doesn't fit with your theorem of Reddit as a whole being left to far-left. Great that we have learned something today!
LordNutGobbler@reddit
You’re aware plenty of subreddits autoban users who have posted in r/conservative right lol?
If you don’t think Reddit leans heavily left then you aren’t paying attention
Specialist-Delay-199@reddit
Yeah who gives a shit about what everyone outside Reddit says? No Reddit is diverse and a platform of mutual constructive conversations as evidenced by... Oh yeah
GirlInTheFirebrigade@reddit
reddit is left, lol? Try being trans on here and go to some of the more popular subreddits…. you won’t have a good time with those "leftists" of yours…
Specialist-Delay-199@reddit
I quite literally see trans people posting every day here what are you talking about lol
GirlInTheFirebrigade@reddit
there are some small communities that are good, the linux and rust subreddits for example. But try going on any of the biggest subreddits of the site…. Just because we’re here doesn’t mean we’re not harassed
Specialist-Delay-199@reddit
I see a lot more trans people complaining about being harassed than actual harassment. Maybe learn to tell people to go fuck themselves and block them?
Secure_Trash_17@reddit
And here you are, defending racists, facists, and nazis. You could vibe code a game out of that, according to your post history.
Specialist-Delay-199@reddit
Maybe if you pulled your brain out of your ass you'd open the "vibecoding" posts and see what they actually say, but I can't expect much from a filthy being like you.
You went to my post history, which means you're miserable enough to try and shame somebody for what they post. You're a disgrace to society.
Altruistic_Ad3374@reddit
replacement theory stuff
datbackup@reddit
The more people (FOSS devs, users, or anyone) try to make the holding and expression of right-wing views socially unacceptable, the more moral capital accrues to the political right.
While I was growing up the left were always the good guys and the right just seemed like cartoonishly simple-minded bumblers and sour- faced greed-driven thugs. They could never actually explain their own views in a way that made them understandable (or desirable) to outsiders.
Now the left is having the same problem. Their views are so inherently correct in their eyes that the very idea of having to explain them is disgusting.
And according to psychological studies, disgust is a typically conservative trait.
I think it causes some sort of cognitive malfunction in left leaning people, when they have to express disgust but they subconsciously understand that this expression “outs” them as being in some dimension, conservative.
If you find DHH’s views to be disgusting, expressing that disgust will inevitably drive more people towards those views—at to least to consider seriously, if not to adopt per se.
It would be far better to say something like “I disagree with his views but I’m glad he’s contributing to open source.” If the idea of saying something like that seems wrong to you, then you are probably exactly the sort of person who is unable to accept their own conservative disgust reaction as I explained above.
If you consider youself a thinking person who wants to find some path for humanity to navigate the terrible mess we’re in, you could do worse than reading Haidt’s research regarding conservatives being able to model the minds of liberals better than vice versa. This checks out for me anecdotally and imo explains a lot about why the left continues to lose.
Here’s an excerpt from an article about Haidt’s book “The Righteous Mind”:
Full article: https://orangeleader.com/2015/07/22/the-righteous-mind-understanding-conservatives-and-liberals/
From the wikipedia page on Haidt:
CompetitiveSleeping@reddit
Hmmm.
LordNutGobbler@reddit
LordNutGobbler@reddit
Fantastic write up, and incredibly applicable to today’s politics in America.
masutilquelah@reddit
it's the same as usual. Left wing linux users just can't stand people having different opinions and they must attack, try t exclude and ruin people's lives.
onechroma@reddit (OP)
No one was excluded AFAIK. As I learnt, those projects tried to discuss privately what to do (a bit in the moral/ethical side) about donations from an entity that has also awarded support for a guy that, it seems, has been made some racists comments and have controversial positions.
They have the freedom to choose their line of action there, nothing wrong with it.
The problem has been with "the right" aligned people, that got heated and started to hyperventilate because of this and making a bigger thing about a nothingburger at the end (as usual).
masutilquelah@reddit
I totally disagree, the left always wants to exclude people. Ironic.
onechroma@reddit (OP)
Nobody tried to exclude anybody at Gnome in this instance. They just considered if they wanted to collaborate or receive money from an entity they argued could be supported a controversial guy for them. Total freedom of that, just like a company with sustainable goals can decide not to work with a highly polluting company or hire a guy that says “climate change don’t exist, drill baby” in their hiring interview.
What could be considered “right aligned” actors in this situation, overreacted like being offended because how Gnome dares to have the freedom to decide what they seem fit and talk their private positions and discussions
In this case, is “the right” trying to bully, overreact and “exclude” people because they feel “attacked” by one group of people thinking they are OK with not working with one guy.
LordNutGobbler@reddit
People on the Gnome board are literally telling others to please reconsider working with Framework, and to private message them if they are considering it
Ideological purity tests, cancel culture at its finest
Pollinosis@reddit
People who aren't hyper-political don't care about the politics of Linux contributors. Use things that make your life better and don't worry about ideological conformity.
LordNutGobbler@reddit
I’m obviously late and just reading up now but the people in this thread are batshit insane. Unashamed ideological purity tests, performative exhibitionism turned up to the max.
moanos@reddit
If you do not care about someone being that racist you are part of the problem. This is not about ideological conformity, this is about my neighbors getting killed of DHH would get his wish of "remigration" (abduction people into other countries that are dangerous to them).
Pollinosis@reddit
When it becomes "you are either with us or against us," we have entered the realm of extremism or radicalism. Thankfully, most people want no part of this.
moanos@reddit
Why? I think we should all agree that racism and nazis = bad. And these people have already decided they are against us. I'd have been killed in Nazi Germany. It's not extreme to say, that everybody should be against that.
boredtechy@reddit
Xenophobia is a thing. Racism is another thing. Nazism is totally a different thing.
If we continue to have white and black positions like children in kindergarten then we’ve totally lost against the the actual crisis of democratic values.
Every time that we call nazi everyone we push people to Trump and friends.
Pollinosis@reddit
And I'd have been killed in Soviet Russia, maybe, but you don't see me fly off the handle when I learn that some random programmer has expressed Communist sympathies on some blog.
Also, saying that everyone on the planet should hold some particular belief is extreme--even if that belief were obviously true or obviously morally correct to you.
vmartell22@reddit
Free speech as defined in the USA allows those persons to freely express their views. I said "as defined in the USA" because in other countries, hate speech is illegal speech.
However, in the USA, only the government is barred from limiting speech. Private institutions can limit speech within their property and endeavours.
The opposite of those countries ( mostly in Europe, Mexico too) where hate speech is illegal, but nobody can limit speech beyond that, be it the government or private institutions. Different conceptions.
Sorry for the long-winded start of this post. All of this is to say that people in the USA are free to express their opinions no matter how ugly.
But we are also free to oppose those opinions. Disagreement is not speech suppression. Free will is not oppression. Campaigning against the endeavours of purveyors of hate speech is not political persecution.
People are free not to care and just use Omarchy, which as I posted before, I like and think is a good thing, whatever it is. But we are also free to express our opposition to it and campaign against its usage as a way to demonstrate disagreement. And people are free to listen to either side. Hopefully the non-evil one.
And last but not least, racisms above all, is a lack of common sense. It is too bad that in these times, common sense, and yes not being evil is considered a political stance.
KrazyKirby99999@reddit
Some people are looking to start drama, so they are accusing Vaxry, DHH, and Framwork of being fascist. A few are even demanding that GNOME refuse donations from Framework. Given the lack of actual evidence for these people being fascists, this sounds like McCarthyism to me.
Debian has bigger problems than Hyprland right now
EmptyRedData@reddit
How'd framework get wrapped up in this? They seem pretty cool, but I am severely out of the loop with this stuff.
KrazyKirby99999@reddit
Those stirring up drama are mad about some of the sponsorships mentioned above:
Framework is mindful of their social responsibility (https://frame.work/sustainability), but isn't extreme enough to pass the latest ideological purity tests.
LvS@reddit
That's kinda the problem, isn't it?
If they are mindful and know exactly that they are sponsoring right-wing people, then they make it very clear that they are cool with it and don't see it as a problem at all.
UK-sHaDoW@reddit
Right wing people? You're excluding everyone who right wing now?
LordNutGobbler@reddit
The people in this thread are absolutely batshit insane with their ideological purity tests
faultydesign@reddit
You: I’m slightly left but I can accept views that don’t agree with mine
The view in question: these fucking untermensch are ruining my beautiful white nation
UK-sHaDoW@reddit
Do you think Japan is racist?
faultydesign@reddit
Japan is a country with racist and not racist people.
Xenophobia is just a fancy word for racism.
UK-sHaDoW@reddit
Japan has very little migration, compared to say the UK. This is an explicit policy to preserve the culture.
PageKind1074@reddit
Depends, are you asking about every single person ever who happens to be Japanese, or the socially accepted majority? Because, yeah, calling racially diverse people "half breeds" and in the more extreme cases calling SEA people "monkeys" sure is racist, yep.
faultydesign@reddit
Them who?
If you think a racist policy is a good one then yeah you’re racist. But you can also disagree with the actions of your government.
boredtechy@reddit
Xenophobia is a thing. Racism is another thing. Nazism is totally a different thing.
If we continue to have white and black positions like children in kindergarten then we’ve totally lost against the the actual crisis of democratic values.
Every time that we call nazi everyone we push people to Trump and friends.
boredtechy@reddit
Do you accept right wing people in your neighborhood?
tofu-esque@reddit
Just to be clear, DHH is far further right than your average right winger. I feel like it was pretty obvious that /u/LvS wasn't talking about literally every single right winger in software development with that context
EmptyRedData@reddit
I hadn't seen anything on this, so I tried to look up examples. It didn't take long to find out that he parrots far right talking points. How disappointing
abbzug@reddit
Yeah but it's a spectrum. Stuff like "I believe in private enterprise, low taxes, less regulation" is fine. "We must secure the existence..." not so much. And he seems to be in the latter.
LvS@reddit
It's the argument about the Nazi bar: If you don't act early and hard against people that act like fascists, then they will take over your community.
An example for how that happens is the United States of America in the 2010s and 2020s.
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
But only if they are actually fascists, which framework aren’t
LvS@reddit
What do you someone who pays fascists?
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
Also, just so we’re clear idk if DHH is a fascist, I do know he’s xenophobic or nationalist or something, which aren’t necessarily fascist right?
LvS@reddit
Thank got he's just a xenophobic nationalist, that's so much better!
You're trying real hard to excuse him, are you an omarchy user by chance?
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
Nope. I have zero interest in Omarchy and zero interest in defending DHH. I was defending Framework
LvS@reddit
It seems that you can't do one without the other.
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
No I think you can. Framework and DHH have wildly different values. Just because they supported one of his projects doesn’t mean they agree with his views.
LvS@reddit
Yeah, I know you think you can.
But then, you did end up on asocial media site defending DHH by arguing intricacies about fascism vs xenophobic nationalism.
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
I’m literally not defending him. In fact you can clearly see that I’m accusing him of being xenophobic, which is bad. The fact that you think I’m defending him when I’m literally criticizing him is crazy.
I made an argument for defending framework while still disagreeing with DHH, feel free to respond to that since you disagree. But we are in agreement that DHH is a cringe racist loser. Why are you trying to argue with me on whether I’m defending him or not? Do you want me to be defending him. I’m telling you I’m not and I don’t like the guy.
What we disagree on is whether you can still defend Framework without defending DHH. I think you can, you think you can’t. I’ve explained why I think you can, you have just asserted that you can’t with no explanation (which is fine if you don’t want to discuss it, but instead you are just attacking me for a belief that I don’t even hold).
LvS@reddit
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
Not what I meant by that. I’m sorry you took it that way. Xenophobic to me is just as bad or worse than fascism (because fascism is not well defined), so I never thought anyone would take that as me trying to make him sound “less bad”. I thought xenophobic/racist sounds worse than fascist.
LvS@reddit
Ah.
That explains why we couldn't agree on anything.
To me xenophobia is a direct result of ultranationalism which is a cornerstone of fascism.
And racism is always a result of xenophobia because it's the easiest marker people can apply to label something as foreign.
There's certainly grades of racism in different kinds of fascism, but I have never seen fascists who aren't racist.
I would also never consider either of those worse than fascism for one simple reason: xenophobia and racism are feelings, fascism is actions.
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
Fair enough
mrtruthiness@reddit
He's also pretty authoritarian, right??? Nationalist, Authoritarian. He's only missing "militarism" from the fascist tri-fecta. https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism/Common-characteristics-of-fascist-movements
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
Is he? I don’t know. I don’t follow his blog. I’ve only heard about his xenophobia. I’m just saying that I’m not gonna call someone a fascist just because they are bad. I’m just gonna call out the specific bad thing that I know about them, xenophobia in this case.
mrtruthiness@reddit
Yes, IMO.
It's a tricky label ... especially since it's not particularly well-defined.
For example, I wasn't using it even for Trump until he started bringing US troops and federal police (ICE) to police US cities. I was just calling him an authoritarian nationalist/racist anti-democratic bigot until then. Now he's fascist IMO.
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
I call them someone who pays fascists. However, paying a fascist is a little bit different than donating to a non political project created by a fascist.
mrtruthiness@reddit
It's as if you didn't read the link he provided. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Nazi_bar . Framework welcomed fascists.
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
Nope, I read it. It doesn’t seem like you did though. Or maybe you just didn’t comprehend the discussion here. We were talking about Gnome, they would be the bar in this scenario. Framework would be a customer (who aren’t fascist). Even if Framework is also a bar and they “welcomed fascists” (which I dispute), that doesn’t make them fascist, it makes them a bar that got taken over by fascists.
mrtruthiness@reddit
I believe you've got it wrong. "Framework" is the bar and they've admitted "Omarchy" and others into their bar and, so, have become a Nazi bar by association. The ancestor comment about "the Nazi" bar and who "they" is comes from:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1oa74wh/im_out_of_the_loop_whats_the_deal_with_dhh/nk7nc9l/
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
From the root comment: “A few are even demanding that GNOME refuse donations from Framework, given the lack of actual evidence for these people being fascists, this sounds like McCarthyism to me” The comment about the Nazi bar was replying to this. Clearly GNOME is the bar and Framework are the potential fascist patrons. As for the rest of your comment, we are in agreement.
mrtruthiness@reddit
Nope. That's still not how I read it.
You went back too far. When LvS replied ... it was replying exactly to "how'd framework get wrapped up in this". Framework is the bar. But, in either case, it's also true that GNOME wants nothing to do with Framework given the statement from the Framework CEO ( the "big tent" statement) where he is basically welcoming fascists ... as long as they were pro-FLOSS fascists.
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
I did not go back too far. I literally quoted the same part that LvS quoted when he brought up the Nazi bar. Check again.
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
Again, just to be clear, I am not disagreeing with the rest of your comment. Just your interpretation of the Nazi Bar discussion
mrtruthiness@reddit
Maybe ... but as I mentioned. It's moot. GNOME is free to not associate with Framework if they believe that Framework is sponsoring fascists.
Also, re-read my comment. I've edited to discuss fascism and McCarthyism.
Careless-Rule-6052@reddit
Agreed, and also I never labeled anyone McCarthyist, the parent comment did.
I agree with your explanation of fascism and McCarthyism. And of course I believe GNOME (or anyone, including you and I) is free not to work with Framework if they wish. I just think they might be doing more harm than good if they do so. And I’m not yet ready to boycott Framework because of this incident. That’s my opinion, I completely respect your choice not to associate with them. I think it is noble to boycott companies you disagree with. However it’s not always practical for everyone and we should not expect everyone to be able to do so.
mrtruthiness@reddit
Thanks!
onechroma@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the context, much appreciated
thewrinklyninja@reddit
Probably Jeremy Bicha
dkopgerpgdolfg@reddit
People are still going about that?
emcee1@reddit
Oh, what's that about?
dkopgerpgdolfg@reddit
Cancel culture, basically.
From my limited POV: This guy is, at least
At the same time, some few people claim that he commited "thousands of sexual assaults", is listed on some government list of sexual predators, and Debconf letting him speak in France means that Debian is horrible and shouldn't be used.
I can't verify that part about the government website, because it doesn't grant me access to any info. But as nobody saw a need to do anything (like, prison, Canonical not hiring him, etc.), and given that the US has a quite a few cases of ridiculously draconian witch hunts for basically nothing, I'm giving him the benefit of doubt.
Finally, even if someone was a criminal in the past, I'm not that stupid to blame all Debian-related people for it.
emcee1@reddit
Thanks for your reasonable and compreensive write up. Much appreciated.
thewrinklyninja@reddit
This it was this one. https://offender.fdle.state.fl.us/offender/sops/flyer.jsf?personId=85068
dkopgerpgdolfg@reddit
As you're linking it here, for curiosity, are you able to view it? (Because I can't.)
BinkReddit@reddit
I can view it without issue.
Gugalcrom123@reddit
You should see a few red flags when a project's only support channel is Discord.
Flimsy_Antelope_562@reddit
Care to elaborate?
KrazyKirby99999@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1lzsnz9/25th_debian_conference_just_started_today_what/
aew3@reddit
I think its fairly obvious the sort of ideas Vaxry at the very least harbors are potentially quite extreme based on some of the interactions and screenshots I've seen. He either has some super extreme opinions or just enjoys being an ironic 4chan-esque character -- its usually pretty hard to tell with these sorts how sincere stuff is. And DHH appears to be very openly xenophobic, plus has the typical suite of tech bro lib-right viewpoints.
Either way though, the money goes to the project. As long as they aren't spending it elsewhere, the money finances work on these projects. And in today's world, that is pretty fucking safe and ethical to directly fund a FOSS project. You can be pretty safe in knowing the money doesn't flow to any nation state or weapons dealer. Same can't be said for giving money to many common place every day corporations in the west these days. I think being critical of this is weird purity politics. I wouldn't give money to Hyprland because the project management is dysfunctional and I worry for its stability, but nothing to do with the actual viewpoints of Vaxry.
KrazyKirby99999@reddit
That's a reasonable take IMO. They aren't politically correct (and potentially worse), but at least they're contributing to the FOSS ecosystem.
It's disappointing to see people at GNOME trying to reject much needed funding over something so unimportant. "Only give us money or don't give us money" is not a good position
Business_Reindeer910@reddit
"politically correct"? seriously?
LvS@reddit
So money trumps all?
jar36@reddit
always has, unfortunately
Floppie7th@reddit
DHH has always been kind of an obnoxious windbag. Not super surprised to see that from him.
newprint@reddit
As someone who grew-up in the Soviet Union, the dumb left ideology fights between different Linux fractions is exhausting to read. In the meantime, the authoritarian Chinese & Russian firewalls are running on Linux. This crowd is oblivious to the fact at the end of the day, their own work is being used for free for them most nefarious things, incl weapons development without their consent.
I suggest you read with grain of salt and ignore the noise.
kombiwombi@reddit
This is not a distro war, or how many angels can dance in the head of a pin.
This is about human rights: who is accepted into the distribution's community without discrimination.
You want Linux to be a moral movement -- to avoid assisting the forces of autocracy. But this too is a moral issue.
KakuraPuk@reddit
This is about power and control and only that, nothing to do with human rights or anything like that. Classic "destroy anyone whi disagrees with me". Gnome should consider Great Gnome Firewall by default to shutdown itself on certain trigger words at this point.
CondiMesmer@reddit
They aren't oblivious, there's just nothing they can do about it. That's a very silly accusation. Part of free-as-in-freedom means bad guys gets access to that stuff too.
That argument gets thrown a lot in the privacy space over encryption as well. Governments argue that it protects bad guys so they need to backdoor it. Well too bad, part of encryption means protecting the bad guys too.
You can't draw a line between who can or can't use something, otherwise it defeats the entire point of FOSS.
barkwahlberg@reddit
This isn't about who is using Linux. It's about Framework donating to projects with objectionable leaders. There's a vast difference between someone is using free open source software and actively choosing to fund a project. I don't know why this is so hard to understand for some people. You act enlightened here then firmly stick your head in the sand.
LvS@reddit
Chinese and Russian governments don't file issues in my projects.
Hyprland and Omarchy users and developers do.
Gugalcrom123@reddit
Exactly. Libre software is always equal. Libre software support may not be.
glpm@reddit
The place where you were brought up means jack s*** and doesn't mean anything to support any point without a decent argument.
onechroma@reddit (OP)
IDK what the USSR has to do with "the left", like the one in Europe, social democracies and so on? And what can the Linux community do about others using their code for bad things?
I mean, that's a given, FLOSS projects will be subject for bad purposes always, because everyone can use them, because that's their nature, being open for everyone. It's like water or air, it's neutral to everything and open for everyone.
The US uses Linux in their mass destruction weapons in some way for sure, companies like Sony or Nintendo use BSD "for free" for their OSs, and so on. It's part of the deal.
But it doesn't mean every project that make their own things, must collaborate directly or accept directly anything from everybody. You can use Debian, but Debian can avoid you if they don't like you.
Anyway, thanks for your recommendation about ignoring the noise, I think it's the best to do really, and I will apply it. Thanks.
Morphon@reddit
It's quite simple. Some OSS developers want all other OSS developers that they work with or are associated with to have the same political views that they do.
DHH is publicly critical of some political views. The people that have those views don't react by saying, "Oh, interesting. We have different political theories and intuitions."
Instead they tried to have him removed from his own projects and created concern trolling operations and "open letter" campaigns to pressure orgs to disassociate from him and pressure him to step away from his own projects.
That didn't work. He is basically unfireable. He can't be excluded from his own projects. The only thing they have left is to try to get companies that might work with him to be afraid of "tainting" themselves by association.
That's the gist of it. If you find OSS to be more about software and engineering and not really about social political issues, you probably think the whole thing is silly and tiring. If you find OSS to be more about the politics, then it's probably the most important thing to you to make sure that a person that disagrees with you is not allowed to write software. Or, at least that no software they write (or that their friends and associates write) runs on your computer.
KakuraPuk@reddit
this is 100% on point
moanos@reddit
This is wrong. Issues like this are never about taxes or infrastructure projects. That's where I can have a healthy debate. I want other OSS developers to not have "political views" that view others as subhuman. And I'll certainly not give money to them
Morphon@reddit
I think your hyperbolic characterization of your political opponents makes for a great example of group 2.
Not sure if you meant it as satire or not, but nice work making the difference between the two approaches to OSS so clear.
Take my upvote!
vmartell22@reddit
Just wanted to say, racism is not conservatism. Conservatism is fine, racism is evil.
Peace.
LowOwl4312@reddit
People stirring shit up and creating drama out of nothing in order to harm one if the few good laptop companies as well as several FOSS projects.
moanos@reddit
Sorry but this is not drama out of nothing. This is about Framework repeatedly promoting the pet project of a racist, with knowledge or reckless disregard of his actions.
This is the Nazi bar problem. Please google it if you are not familiar
KakuraPuk@reddit
I think Nazi is actually on the other side, so DHH is pretty much antifa.
mtlnwood@reddit
Yes, some people will give up on framework and choose a company that aligns less with their views because framework didn't capitulate.
KakuraPuk@reddit
Asking it on reddit is like talking to your shadow. In short: everyone is fascist as usual for Gnome.
Typical_Hunt_9331@reddit
Have you seen what Linus Torvalds says? This is just one of his famous interactions, but he has many going up until recently as has been getting called out for it and is starting to cool it. Seems your research on the Hyprland dev was reading 1 Reddit post and calling it a day. "quite problematic" for calling someone an idiot in a discord? Lol are you a bot?
intrikat@reddit
Eurofolks and asiabros shouldn't really be concerned with the political scene in the good ole US of A. None of those things really matter to us to the extent they matter there. All this drama is just getting exported overseas as usual but it has nothing to do with us.
Let's go drink wine on the towns plaza and forget about work.
CondiMesmer@reddit
The guy is Danish, it has nothing to do with the US.
intrikat@reddit
the guy hasn't lived in Denmark in many many years, no? he spends his days in Malibu from what I know.
MelioraXI@reddit
Does that make a native less of their origin if you lived abroad for several years? Just trying to follow your logic.
CondiMesmer@reddit
You should really just skim the post instead of asking me
jgangi@reddit
It's not quite like that, the sealing people want to cancel DHH because they don't accept "political correctness" in the opensource environment, that is, they don't want to mix ideology with opensource, which is correct, but the leftist people are doing everything they can to "burn" it.
life_after_suicide@reddit
I just scrolled through the replies a bit (actually longer than I care to admit... it's hard to look away from the freakish stupidity).
Of course, it's the norm: 99% of the left just repeats lies to themselves over and over, because they are either evil, incapable of understanding what he actually said, or refuse to read it in the first place, due crippling aversion to anything that might challenge their confirmation bias. Spare me.
Turbulent_Sample487@reddit
I installed it and gave it a good go, honestly it's fun, but since I have a HUGE monitor Hyperland isn't so great for me - and to use Omarchy well you have to learn about 10, oh wait who am I kidding, at least 20 keyboard shortcuts just to install apps and manage windows - that's when it stops being fun.
QueenOfTheEmus@reddit
It feels like a generic hyperland set up to me.
PropheticAmbrosia@reddit
It's basically a lot of political culture war drivel coming from all sides, which is irrelevant to linux and software as a whole.
Acceptable-Cup3702@reddit
Xfce is the best.
necrose99@reddit
Lun... Duke... journal has some articles on YouTube But some moderation peeps go nuke-lear even a named accounts or r/"Anything" some radicle leftoids mods instant ban ppl... Lun◇... Duke is like Voldemort to radical activist leftoids... on most forums , the name that shan't be named and potentially ban☆☆ning.... for open-source news... Gnome or other projects hate Rabi Lu_n... Duke... set to auto ban simular names...
Anyway some the Uber radicle woke leftoids activists use words " like Nazi particles " Gnome foundation.... , if thier not a furry or something? 50 billion genders.. go 3 mile island meltdown tantrums... Or you don't drink the same flavors of Marxist kool-aid they do... HATES YOU IMMEDIATELY... Ie conservative, centrist , liberal-lite [more conservative liberals] Minnesota, state senator /spouse moderate liberal recent assassination....
framework offering to sponsor open source software, anyone... and likewise any business should keep poltics and religions out of it... do good products n software...
Ironically Gnome Foundation, laid-off tons of devs... circles above bankruptcy , could use the money... they refused...
FDROID app store NSFW err not safe for Woke? The Bible and other religion apps NSFW , PORN tags... now applied by default... to anything religion... Koran , Budist texts... prolly baned The Poetica Eda... n Odin too...
Nixos the founder got punted from his own distro , not kow-towing to the woke moderator team... REDHAT inc or Debian el jefe has some radical left leaning ppl... Antififa supporters... X-libre is "fascist" he got tired of patches for 6 years to x11 n RedHat refused them ... makes sense...
Ppl are looking for skipping the radical political drama and for great software... like 95% of ppl good software without the dramma... Voted with thier Wallets... I can't blame them...
Just what I hear... on the vines...
voidvec@reddit
gfto with your Ai slop post
wumaoscousin@reddit
Neo-nazi realeases his dotfiles, gets free advertising from neo-nazi social media site and props from it's neo-nazi owner, and then gets free equipment from Neo-nazi founder of laptop manufacturer. I think that about covers It.
mrobot_@reddit
oh FFS keep these politics-du-jour and conspicuous-activism out of linux and foss... anyone involved with linux been an outsider since the 80s/90s, let's keep it that way. linux and foss needs technically minded, capable people - not streamers, shitposters and online-"activists". We already got rms evangelizing and linus shitposting about stupid kernel commits. that's enough.
onechroma@reddit (OP)
My guy, I just wanted to fill the curiosity and know why those things were said ("Gnome has been captured"???) and if it would be a problem if those donations are refused/retired.
Somehow I thought this was much bigger than it is, maybe because I thought Framework was a huge donor as in "huge maker in the Linux hardware space" just like System76
I think I valued it wrongly and this was just a mild event, and now all the info has been given and thanks everyone for it. For what it's worth, I would be OK with the thread being closed already for all I care.
Sorry if you hated me posting this to know more.
mrobot_@reddit
Sry, this wasnt directed at you, I understand you were curious.
I just noticed a ton of this tribalism BS creeping into FOSS and linux lately and streamers jumping on i etc.. and I seriously HATE everything about that. I preferred it when linux was the weird kids who hide they like computers but are secretly pretty genius and build awesome stuff.
AndyGait@reddit
Yeah, let's just ignore racism so that Linux can feel good for the weird kids.
FFS!
strider_kiryu85@reddit
And ignore the commies as well
AshuraBaron@reddit
"Let's not support racists"
"yeah but what about the commies?"
"What commies?"
"You know, everyone on the left."
If you can't bring yourself to reject racists and jump to whataboutism, then you might want to take a good hard look at yourself.
strider_kiryu85@reddit
It's the other way around: lefties/commies call everyone that disagree a racist and a nazi. Like everyone is hitler for being conservative. Like what happened to Charlie Kirk was justified. You take a look in the mirror.
AshuraBaron@reddit
I like that you STILL cannot reject racism. Instead you deflect to tired talking points saying everyone else is the problem. How do you read someone talking about how great ethnostates are and go “yeah but leftists call everyone racist.” What does Charlie Kirk have to do with any of this? Nothing. Stay on topic next time.
strider_kiryu85@reddit
Nobody is defending racism or whatever. Problem is attacking DHH for being conservative. And that has eveything to do with Charlie Kirk's killing by one of you lefties.
AndyGait@reddit
I used to see myself as centre right. Racism has feck all to do with being a conservative.
AshuraBaron@reddit
It’s not for being conservative unless you think racism is a critical part of being conservative. And an American being shot (by a right winger)has nothing to do with a Dutch software developer. Stop trolling.
AndyGait@reddit
No. I'm calling DHH a racist because of his own words. He wrote a blog post supporting a far-right, racist twat, Tommy Robinson. if you do racist things, I'll call you a racist. That's how it works.
As for Kirk, I oppose everything he stood for, but I fundamentally, 100% disagree with his murder.
AndyGait@reddit
Commies?
strider_kiryu85@reddit
Yes. Left leaning loonies
AndyGait@reddit
Well that tells me where your head is at.
onechroma@reddit (OP)
Sorry for misunderstanding your first comment. And I'm with you on this take. Reading things about Linux and finding the shit "Lunduke" is pushing in Youtube with thousands of views, and all this shenanigans (I found about this post, without too much knowledge about those guys, because DHH had literally lots of interactions and reposts, like +3.3K in the post of criticising Gnome devs, and somehow I got to it by the algorithm)
But I suppose it's very difficult in today world where politics is more integrated than ever in everything, because the internet is about it, controversies and tribalism, rage baits and so on give lots of interactions (and therefore, money) to platforms and some people, so for years all this "tribalism" and "politics everywhere 24x7" has been heavily pushed into people minds, and now we're here.
grok-bot@reddit
Framework gave money to several desktop environments, including Hyprland; they declared that they did so after having assessed that the Hyprland community wasn't that much of
onechroma@reddit (OP)
Since when is Grok (Musk bot) also on Twitter commenting?
grok-bot@reddit
I'm an adult human woman
Omar_Eldahan@reddit
Ahhh the internet. Where bots pretend to be humans and humans pretend to be bots and no one has any idea who or what they're talking to at any given time.
onechroma@reddit (OP)
Oh! Sorry, I just assumed somehow your user was really the AI
In this times you never know, and you got a really nice nick to appear as an AI lol
grok-bot@reddit
I mean yeah yk there's no "somehow" in that it makes sense to assume I am indeed a bot
Jojos_BA@reddit
Your profile says you indeed are a bot?!
grok-bot@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie
Jojos_BA@reddit
Would you mind explaining that concept to me, I seem to not grasp ur humor
waitmarks@reddit
Sounds like something a bot would say.
sosodank@reddit
He's not racist, get over yourself
jess-sch@reddit
Saying that you can't be british no matter how many generations your family has lived in britain seems pretty racist to me.
And I'm not sure how else to interpret the claim that only about a third of londoners are brits. Given that, you know, the only statistic that aligns with is white brits in london.
grok-bot@reddit
You are delusional or ignorant if you think that
spectator_123@reddit
Show me a single instance of racist language. Apparently, you don't know what you're talking about.
No_Elderberry862@reddit
So espousing, e.g., the racist great replacement bollocks but without using racial epithets means that someone is not racist?
Nah. That's a steaming pile of shite.
spectator_123@reddit
Still, you haven't given me a single shred of evidence. I didn't ask for a rant.
No_Elderberry862@reddit
Aww, you think that was a rant? How sheltered you must be.
Bad faith Sealions don't get fed. Off you sod.
grok-bot@reddit
Racism is when you say the n-word. You know that someone is being a racist if they say the n-word and as long as one doesn't say it they cannot be racist no matter what.
fuck off
DaFlamingLink@reddit
https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64
(emphasis mine)
Note he linked a wikipedia articlenamed "Ethnic groups in London", which itself says that:
That is, 59% of its people were born in Britain, which is not the "60% -> 33%" change he was referring to. Coincidentally, the only population change that would fit is specifically the "White British" category, going from 59.79% in 2001 to 36.78% in 2021.
Now, with the context that he's interpreting "native brit" as "white brit" here, what do you think he's referring to in the following quotation?
See the following blogpost for more context, as this comment is largely paraphrasing it: https://jakelazaroff.com/words/dhh-is-way-worse-than-i-thought/#native-brits
INITMalcanis@reddit
He writes some pretty racist-sounding things for someone who aint racist. The lad could probably do with some writing classes or something to express himself more clearly.
Busy_Agency5420@reddit
i made the error of reading most comments here. needless to say i wont do that again.
djfdhigkgfIaruflg@reddit
DHH might be a smart programmer. But he's an absolute POS as a person. And constantly acts as a cult leaders.
Nothing he does would surprise me anymore.
NeonVoidx@reddit
Omarchy is just Arch and hyprland pre setup in a very opinionated way with his dotfiles. great for all these new people seeing hyprland from people like PewDiePie that want something shiny without understanding any of it
Wooden-Engineer-8098@reddit
I don't know who dhh is and I don't want to know it
akiakiak@reddit
The "drama" is that linux and free software in general, if you think a bit, are very much on the left. And silicon valley types pretend they are shooketh that foundations that support free software and community are... well... left-leaning, and try to wage some sort of ideological crusade and frame this like a far-left takeover. If they are ostracized for this, they throw a hissy fit. And then comes a whole lot of mental gymnastics and relativization and whataboutism, which'll slide the entire discussion slowly to the right over time, and at one point, as we say in my country, we all wake up with our hands in the chamber pot.
strider_kiryu85@reddit
It linux isn't political, why be salty about a conservative doing it?
vmartell22@reddit
Is not his conservatism.
leaflock7@reddit
this is nothing more that left wing people complaining because they don't like the creators behind Hyprland/Omarchy.
Since they don't agree with their opinions they should not be entitled to nothing, this is their perspective.
Catazat@reddit
I really want to get a Framework laptop, and I was planning on doing so, but this whole situation is giving me some pause. I might still do it, but I want to see how this plays out more fully. I don't want to support a company that supports racists, but I don't know how much support Framework actually gave DHH personally vs. Omarchy as a project since one of the beautiful things about FOSS is that you can use a program without supporting the author.
tapo@reddit
I think Framework saw DHH as trying to capture developers from Apple and thought to jump on that train without looking too closely at it. And now they've awkwardly stepped into a culture war and they're unprepared because anything they say will result in a boycott of their brand, which they can't afford as a small company.
LuckyHedgehog@reddit
Agreed. A lot of people are experimenting with Linux with Windows 10 ending, and hyprland/omarchy recently became trendy. Usually the most simple explanation is correct, and that is as simple as it gets.
moanos@reddit
However they need to have been aware of the backlash on twitter and in their discord. And when you ignore that (for whatever reason) you are responsible. They could have quietly ended the support for DHH, now it's a whole thing
Catazat@reddit
I agree. I think what matters much more than what they just did is what they're going to do in the future. The way I see it is that they supported a project that is likely to attract a lot of users to them, and they didn't send any money to DHH. However, by supporting Omarchy, they are indirectly helping DHH. I'm sure that he's benefiting from the popularity of the thing he made, even if he's not directly getting any money from sales or something.
I don't have any problem whatsoever with someone personally using Omarchy since they're not giving any money to DHH by doing so. I mainly take exception with the fact that Framework didn't vet their business partners enough to know not to partner with Omarchy.
FryToastFrill@reddit
If this is the case, it’s a very good lesson on doing some background checks before giving projects money lmao. I don’t buy laptops but I wish framework the best in navigating their way out of this situation because they have a very cool product.
mtlnwood@reddit
I have seen a lot of people say they may not get a framework any longer, or they will sell the framework they have. I have not seen anyone say which manufacturer they will swap to that can survive scrutiny based on that which is given to framework.
snil4@reddit
Great, I'll buy one from them, maybe I'll finally have the option to buy one since they still don't ship to my country.
Isofruit@reddit
Mostly System76 and Tuxedo computers from what I've seen.
Catazat@reddit
I'd buy a used one from a private seller.
Isofruit@reddit
They didn't give him substantial (for DHH anyway) material support, I wouldn't count a Laptop as such given DHH has enough money in his pockets to buy one without feeling it.
The more significant support they gave was shouting out his niche dotfile-distribution Omarchy. Given that it is niche and so distinctly tied to DHH, any promotion of it also promotes him and by extension his views (since he also fairly publicly has a blog).
Personally, while I see this very critically, this hasn't shaken me off framework. Any other laptop manufacturer I would use likely has more controversial crap going on that I am not aware of.
sluuuurp@reddit
Do you think other computer companies have no Republican workers? Or that no Chinese Communist Party workers profit from your purchase?
Catazat@reddit
To be clear, the alternative for me would be to buy a used laptop. I'd never buy a new one from another company.
sluuuurp@reddit
Do you think lowering the supply of used laptops has no effects on increasing profits from new laptop sales?
Catazat@reddit
No. I know that if I do, there's the possibility that it indirectly contributes to the purchase of another new laptop, and if it does, there's a good chance that some of that money will go to evil. Therefore, my taking that action has a good probability of forwarding a small, but non-zero, amount of money to evil causes.
However, my dilemma in buying a Framework laptop is the following: I want to minimize the amount of evil in the world, and I need a laptop. There is no choice of laptop that doesn't, to some extent, contribute to evil in the world by buying it. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism. But that's not an excuse to just not care at all. Morality isn't just "completely good" and "completely bad." If I can't do something ethical, I'm still obligated to choose the least unethical option.
In this case, I'm still undecided on whether or not buying a Framework laptop contributes to evil in the world more or less than buying a used laptop. I'm leaning towards buying the Framework, but again, I'm undecided as of yet. Once I have more information about the situation, I can more effectively choose which is better.
sluuuurp@reddit
Ok, I think I understand your position better. You think every action everyone ever takes contributes to evil in very tiny ways that need to be carefully balanced. That sounds like a stressful perspective, I prefer to focus on more tangible evils that I actually have a chance at changing. For example, an email to congressperson would probably make a much bigger difference reducing evil than a lifetime of laptop choices.
Sentreen@reddit
Honestly, read the reply of their ceo in the thread on their forums here, and judge for yourself.
(there is an edit which adds more context about hyprland, specifically, in the linked post)
yahbluez@reddit
What a BS.
never read about it looked the promo video, this guy thinks that
And it is ARCH based so you will face the ARCH typical windows like update hell for minor stuff which eats your time.
**After 5 years of arch i went back to debian because of the waste of time to do so many updates. **
Gugalcrom123@reddit
And it has preinstalled Spotify
Adept-Log3535@reddit
Linux isn’t a leftist utopia. The kernel and other major projects like systemd, wayland, pipewire are mostly funded by big corporations directly or indirectly to satisfy their business needs. The majority of the kernel contributors are corporate developers doing Linux development full time for tech companies.
autodialerbroken116@reddit
"Wealthy tech bro"...
Nah mayne. He is smart and effective. He created Rails and enabled tens of thousands of full stack developers almost overnight. Omarchy is his minimal little bs arch distro with Linux software development in mind.
Rails World 2024 David Heinemeir Hanson
https://youtu.be/-cEn_83zRFw?si=p5YJabg97OSf3UYw
Watch this guy speak on development specs/targets and indie software development and tell me he is not a good speaker.
onechroma@reddit (OP)
I meant it like this, from the info I found to know a bit better about him:
I think of him like of Zuck, Tim Apple, Musk... obviously not at their level of importance, but same kind of framework and aspirations. More into Musk given what I learnt here about him from others....
autodialerbroken116@reddit
The difference between them is:
Musk and Zuckerberg collect data from people and control or manipulate public discourse. They're neither bad nor good in terms of social contributions (aside from the Hitler salute, whatever you got a do you) but they take a lot of credit for what other people do. Remember the Metaverse? Yeah well that was a collosal waste of money and time. Remember when PayPal was just a convenience layer on top of existing credit cards for peer-to-peer transfer? Very little contributions to society.
DHH listens to and takes feedback from tens of thousands of independent software developers, web maintainers, etc. to help them build their own business as quickly as possible. His bond with people out there that need to do everything and the kitchen sink in days not months or years e-commerce...it's not even a good comparison.
DHH might be a "tech bro" but if so it's because he's a good brother to indie software and entrepreneurial platform, he listens to them, and lightens their burdens.
Mark and Elon are "tech bros" because they are a lot like Steve Jobs. Little skill, take the credit from others around you, and survive on egoism and personal brand. Theyre twats.
lateralspin@reddit
The name comes from the Japanese word “omakase”, which means to entrust someone else with the decisions.
DramaticProtogen@reddit
Shitty guy makes a shitty "distro"
mtlnwood@reddit
I read your post. Starting from the first point you made you are in the loop and all you are trying to do is extend the drama. Could you make it more obvious?
onechroma@reddit (OP)
Nope. Before posting I tried to understand more who every character were, but I don't know the specifics and even know I don't know if Framework is a big donor or not (as in, will it hurt projects if they decide to not accept their donation?). Aslo, didn't know DHH character in the depth others here have.
Now I understand a bit more the underlying things, because before, I was perplexed about those kind of words ("GNOME has been fully captured" really got me like: what does it means? What's happening? That phrase alone made me want to know more, thus why I opened this post)
This is my reason. And please, avoid accusing others like that of nefarious actions.
mtlnwood@reddit
You don't write that while being 'out of the loop' by the time you researched all that you are in the loop so the point of the post could be seen as for something else.
onechroma@reddit (OP)
No I'm not. Again, I don't have to explain anybody, but really, when I wrote that, I didn't understand the phrase from DHH, and didn't understand all the heavy things involved.
I didn't know DHH positions others explained (Google or an AI won't show you at first), his connections, or why is so controversial everything.
Also, I still lack the magnitude of this, if it's just a small thing and move on, or a huge deal, because I don't really know the magnitude that Framework and his donations or Omarchy or Hyprland have really.
rulatore@reddit
Didnt know DHH was racist too. He was already controversial in the programming world, but it was mostly harmless and self inflicted wounds, this is much dangerous stuff
Hiding behind ideologies to be a racist piece of shit is always so adorable
onechroma@reddit (OP)
Yeah, me too, I didn't know his links to "proud boys" thorugh some friends and the racial remarks in his own blog. I'm perplexed but at least I got the context of all this, so there's that. Thanks
mzalewski@reddit
It's actually a good thing to be out of loop of anything that DHH is involved in. Do you also happen to keep Elon Musk in high regard?
onechroma@reddit (OP)
Not in the slightest lol
I think that’s a good idea, being a bit OOTL just to be more at ease while enjoying Linux