Exclusive: Hamas aims to keep grip on Gaza security and can't commit to disarm, senior official says
Posted by justhistory@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 329 comments
Ostrich-Sized@reddit
Can you name any genocide where the victims disarmed while the perpetrators of the genocide faced zero consequences?
Asking Hamas to disarm while Israel faces zero consequences for a perpetrating a genocide means that you are just asking Palestinians to accept Israel's final solution.
There are no guarantees that Israel stops the genocide once Hamas disarms and who will deal with the ISIS linked gangs that Israel injected into Gaza?
A reality where genocide is legal and ISIS gets to expand is not a reality I want to work towards.
AFloppyZipper@reddit
Can you name any genocide where the population increases significantly?
Sovespra@reddit
This is literally what neonazis say about the number of jews in europe fucking LISTEN TO YOURSELF
montanunion@reddit
The Jewish population in Europe in 1939 was about 9.5 million. The Jewish population in Europe in 1945 was about 3.8 million.
I have literally never heard any Neonazi claim that the Jewish population of Europe increased during the Holocaust, and I’ve seen a lot of bogus Holocaust claims. The claims tend to be either ”there were a few 100.000s killed but most of them only because of war and disease“ (aka specifically denying the existence of gas chambers) or, for the especially deluded, “they all went to Israel and the US and lived happily on a farm there.”
Sovespra@reddit
They obviously don't pick those two dates, it's usually from as far back as possible (as in the 1800s) to modern day.
The tactic is to frame the data in a way so that it smooths over the massive population decline from a genocide.
montanunion@reddit
Ok but then that’s just… a bad argument because it has nothing to do with the Holocaust. The term genocide is appropriate for the Holocaust specifically for the timeframe 1939 (by some accounts 1941, that’s a bit of a scholarly debate point though- depending on whether you count the attack on Poland or the attack on the Soviet Union as the start) to 1945.
Sovespra@reddit
Of course it's a bad argument, it's made in bad faith by neonazis to try to deny that the holocaust happened.
"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies." and all that
AFloppyZipper@reddit
Wouldn't know, don't know any neonazis. I saw bigfoot once tho
Sovespra@reddit
Oh so you're just one of em, aight
AFloppyZipper@reddit
"Everyone who disagrees with me is a neonazi" will get many more upvotes in r/politics or worldnews. Maybe go there? Seems like the appropriate circle jerk for you.
Sovespra@reddit
You likened them to bigfoot, why else would you have done that lmao
Ostrich-Sized@reddit
First of all we still don't know how many people Israel killed. You can't find a single estimate of the Palestinian population that counts all the dead, nor can you find one that doesn't assume a constant birth rate. Why? Because Israel destroyed all the hospitals where that stuff was recorded.
Second of all, yes, I can.
There was a genocide in Sudan in 2003 here is the population plot https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/sdn/sudan/population
There was the genocide in Myanmar, here is another increasing population https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/myanmar-population/
AFloppyZipper@reddit
Omg I don't think a self own was this easy. Here's a shiny "fell for it again" award.
advillious@reddit
anyone who believes this overused hasbara line is a moron. israel destroyed the health ministry and most of the hospitals. how can the population increase “significantly” in these conditions? they even killed those who count deaths and births. my cousin had to be transferred to 3 different hospitals in north gaza because of lack of simple supplies and lost his leg. nobody is having children safely in gaza and anyone peddling that lie is pure evil.
AFloppyZipper@reddit
Well the hospitals should do what the ones around me do and refrain from hiding weapons and missiles under them.
Does the mouse honestly believe their tunnels are protected by divine mandate? They simply store nuts instead of missiles and even they don't expect protection.
If Israel wanted to conduct a genocide it would only take a week or two. The fact Gaza still remains is all evidence of restraint.
advillious@reddit
see how quickly you’ve abandoned your original claim?
and every respectable human rights org would disagree with you on the genocide part.
Association of Genocide Scholars https://genocidescholars.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/IAGS-Resolution-on-Gaza-FINAL.pdf
Doctors Without Borders https://msf.org.uk/issues/gaza-genocide
International Federation for Human Rights https://www.fidh.org/en/region/north-africa-middle-east/israel-palestine/one-year-of-denouncing-the-genocide-of-palestinians-in-gaza
Amnesty International https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/
Human Rights Watch https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/12/19/israels-crime-extermination-acts-genocide-gaza
United Nations (OHCHR) https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/11/un-special-committee-finds-israels-warfare-methods-gaza-consistent-genocide
Human Rights Network https://www.humanrightsnetwork.org/publications/genocide-in-gaza
B’Tselem https://www.btselem.org/publications/202507_our_genocide
Physicians for Human Rights https://www.phr.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Genocide-in-Gaza-PHRI-English.pdf
Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/6494
Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-on-why-we-call-the-israeli-attack-on-gaza-genocide
Center for Constitutional Rights https://ccrjustice.org/israel-s-unfolding-crime-genocide-palestinian-people-us-failure-prevent-and-complicity-genocide
AFloppyZipper@reddit
You honestly believe that the appropriate way to have a discussion is to spam links like a shareblue puppet? The appeal to authority is not an argument; the only thing you are trying to do is avoid actually confronting your ideological opponents.
You still need to explain why Gaza wasn't flattened completely within 1-2 weeks, despite Israel having the means to do so.
No, you're just lazy. You literally spam that same wall of text any time you interact with someone on reddit. You're either a paid shill or incredibly afraid of honestly confronting your ideological opposition.
DalmationStallion@reddit
This ceasefire has done nothing more than allowed Israel to hit the reset button, whitewash the last 2 years and go back to blaming Hamas for the new round of Israel’s atrocities.
Rindan@reddit
Versus what? Not having a cease fire?
The Hamas attack has been the most useless and worst tragedy to hit the Palestinians since the Israel occupation started. Israel sucks, but Hamas is absolutely fucking worthless and has brought only misery and death to the Palestinians while winning them exactly nothing.
Ostrich-Sized@reddit
Why are you blaming Hamas for the genocide?
In this conflict Hamas has done 2% of the killing. They have killed fewer civilians (both in number and proportion)
Also let's remember Hamas didn't even exist when Israel ethnically cleansed Palestinians and created the concentration camp that Gaza has become.
So ok, sure, Hamas is bad, but by every metric Israel is worse by orders of magnitude.
meister2983@reddit
It also didn't exist when Egypt decided to just not naturalize the Palestinians there after quasi-annexing it.
DevA248@reddit
Correct, because political Islamism was not popular in 1947-1967 when Egypt had control of Gaza.
So naturally, Hamas didn't exist.
Ostrich-Sized@reddit
Zionist always trying to get other countries to join the ethnic cleansing.
Weird strategy.
Zurrdroid@reddit
Yeah if you're expecting Egypt-glazing you're barkin up the wrong tree.
WonderfulPackage5731@reddit
Israel is the only reason Hamas is in power in Gaza. In 2012, Hamas announced the would be handing daily operations of Gaza over to a technocratic board to hold new elections. A US trained security force was to come into Gaza and support the peaceful handover of power.
The UNSC fully supported this. Israel lost their shit and Netanyahu ordered the largest scale assault on Gaza in decades and kept it up until the government transition was abandoned.
Americans seem to be very ignorant to the great lengths Israel has gone through to keep Hamas in power as a means to prevent Palestinian self determination.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Hamas has raised the profile of Palestinians tremendously. Palestinians have, for some mysterious reason, been the only people in the world that the west has decided may never have human rights, don’t have the right to self defence, may not appeal to have their basic humanity recognised, and who cannot use international organisations and mechanisms such as the UN to resolve their status as non-people with no rights.
According to the west Palestinians are so inherently inhuman or subhuman that you can violate UNSC resolutions for decades in order to avoid acknowledging their humanity. That doesn’t happen for anyone else. And that all started before Hamas was formed.
Only violence seems to work against Israel. It’s almost as though it’s the only thing they understand…
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
"Ceasefire now!"
"No, not like that! Only Israel. We want Hamas to keep killing Jews!"
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
BS. If Hamas disappears tomorrow if he happy because they target children and have used child suicide bombers. Heck, they recently killed the family of collaborators. That’s never ok.
But, no matter how bad Hamas are, the IDF is about a thousand times worse…
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
You are attempting to blame Hamas for Israeli actions. It’s cute, but Hamas didn’t force Israel to launch a genocide, didn’t force the IDF to mass murder ambulance workers, air workers, journalists and doctors, didn’t force Israeli snipers to murder octogenarians and children and people under white flags.
Hamas didn’t force the IDF to use human shields, or to set up kill zones, or any of the other atrocities the IDF has done. That’s solely on Israelis, the IDF and their supporters like you.
officerblues@reddit
No, dude. The worst tragedy was the genocide that Israel ran on them. Don't normalize it, they could not have done that and yet chose to do it. We all saw it live, everything was recorded and broadcasted.
Yes, fuck Hamas, but Israel was 100% the villain here.
setut@reddit
Useless? Hardly. Public support across the world for Palestine is higher than it's ever been. Israel has been exposed as a genocidal rogue state. 80% of the UN General Assembly now recognise the Palestinian state.
You're probably one of those people who puts part of the blame for Israel's genocide on Hamas, which basically toes the Israeli government line of blaming the victim and is bullshit. Do you know anything about Palestine? Do you understand life for Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank pre-Oct 7? Stop pretending you care about Palestinian misery and death.
Your tax dollars funded this genocide. Your vassal state committed it. Your society has been brainwashed for the last 30 years with an Islamophobic anti-Arab narrative and your comment reflects this.
GothicGolem29@reddit
Hamas are not victims they are murderers kidnappers and terrorists... And yes Israel has done alot of bad things in this war(won't say genocide until the icj rules) but that doesn't make Hamas victims its the civilians who are the victims
Ostrich-Sized@reddit
You clearly don't know your history.
The last time Palestinians agreed to disarm Israel gave us the Sabra and Shatila massacre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
meister2983@reddit
The Tamil Genocide, using the threshold of "has a Wikipedia article".
Didn't happen to the Tamils! Killing stopped once the LTTE was all dead.
860v2@reddit
MultiversalTraveler@reddit
Literally Israel, which has continuously violated the ceasefire. Yes, the bodies thing is an excuse because they both made it clear that they knew the bodies would be difficult to retrieve and also put in caveats in the 20 point plan addressing that.
They’ve withheld aid to “put pressure” on Hamas. In other words, wielded starvation on Gaza’s as weapon, a war crime.
860v2@reddit
If Hamas agrees to disarm then who else is going to conduct mass extrajudicial executions in the middle of cheering crowds?
LonelyStranger8467@reddit
Themselves being in power is more important to them than the safety of the Gazans, or the future of a Palestinian state. What good is a state to them if they can’t lead it?
Kahzootoh@reddit
Exactly what greater good of Gaza are they sacrificing for if it is to create a Gaza that is defenseless against the genocidal Israelis?
I don’t like Hamas and I think you’re right about their tendency to accumulate power for their own benefit, but I also recognize that the Israelis are genocidal and they have a history of extreme brutality whenever the Palestinians are totally defenseless.
Hamas did offer to disarm on the condition that Gaza would be protected by a force such as an Arab multinational peacekeeping force or a a unified force under Palestinian leadership as part of a national security apparatus for Palestinian statehood, which it could trust.
Hamas is not going to disarm and trust the Israelis, who won’t even commit to not committing genocide- we’ve heard lots of Israelis call for genocide, but as far as I know no one in the Israeli government has proclaimed they will not commit genocide. Do you have any footage of Netanyahu or his military generals saying they will not commit genocide?
The Israelis have not committed to any sort of agreement on a peacekeeping force in Gaza, so it’s understandable that Hamas is not going to disarm and trust a genocidal country to suddenly change.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
You're right, Hamas has done such a bang up job protecting Palestinians up to this point!
DevA248@reddit
Compared to just dying in silence -- yes, probably.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
If this is "dying in silence," I'd hate to see them and their TikTok supporters when they're loud.
DevA248@reddit
You didn't understand my comment. Before Al-Aqsa Flood, the Palestinians in Gaza were living in an unlivable open air prison and the international media and attention were all but nought.
It was inevitable that Israel was planning to kill them (periodic bombing of the Strip was always the norm), so they decided to strike out and defend themselves.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Oh, of course. They just periodically bombed Gaza for no reason, while at the same time, allowing Qatari money to flow in.
I appreciate the perspective, it tells me what I always suspected all along: Palestinians and the general Arab street have no interest in peace, only justifications for their hatred and failures.
DevA248@reddit
Not for "no reason." They bombed Gaza for the purpose of killing the inhabitants.
A Zionist claiming that anyone else has "no interest in peace" is not to be taken seriously. You're willingly funding a genocide, you lose any credibility in that regard.
LonelyStranger8467@reddit
Wait so they need the arms to stop themselves being genocided but despite having the arms they were not able to stop themselves being genocided. Do you see the contradiction?
Brief_Fly6950@reddit
Obviously it didn’t stop it, but giving up arms with no real guarantees will probably make it worse.
LonelyStranger8467@reddit
What’s worse than genocide?
Brief_Fly6950@reddit
A faster easier genocide.
LonelyStranger8467@reddit
You don’t truly believe that Hamas in anyway reduced casualties to the Gazan population. They in fact increased casualties.
Brief_Fly6950@reddit
Not in a literal sense. I do believe however that if Hamas loses its arms, the genocide may escalate further as there would be no bargaining ships left for Palestinians and Israel can do whatever it wants with nothing to put in mind.
the-bladed-one@reddit
Well, it would be an actual genocide instead of a retaliatory action to an attack.
The current situation has at least a base justification even if it went way too far. If they have no weapons and Israel went back at it, even America would have a hard time defending Israel.
JPolReader@reddit
When has Hamas prevented the Israelis from killing anyone the Israelis wanted to?
Brief_Fly6950@reddit
Any kind of militant resistance makes genocide a harder and more expensive task to do. There is a well recognized historical pattern of genocide victims agreeing to disarm/relocate (as if that’s gonna stop the genocide) only to be killed on a larger scale later.
JPolReader@reddit
Really? Israel wasn't bombing Gaza on October 6th.
The reality is that Hamas' actions have lead to much death and destruction for Gaza.
Brief_Fly6950@reddit
Israel literally bombed Gaza a few days before Oct 7th (though not as intense). Hamas’ attack on Oct 7 was surely a catalyst for genocide, but disarming will probably make things worse.
JPolReader@reddit
If you look at the last 25 years, nearly all Palestinian deaths due to fighting follow immediately after Hamas attacks Israel.
Hamas is doing the exact opposite of protecting Palestinians.
The Israel-Palestine conflict has claimed 14,000 lives since 1987 https://share.google/gaAZx1o5d0O7hK6QI
Palestinian death toll from Israeli attacks on Gaza rises to 2,750 https://share.google/QhG29XdWZY13greP5
Brief_Fly6950@reddit
Lmao
pasher5620@reddit
Faster genocide? Not hard, my guy. People have a right to defend themselves.
LonelyStranger8467@reddit
I’m not your guy.
If you think Hamas in anyway reduced the amount of casualties in Gaza then you’re not being honest with yourself or you’re uninformed about how they conducted war and what their capabilities are vs what Israel’s capabilities are.
metamorphotits@reddit
each person who dies in a genocide who didn't have to make it worse, and i'm sure their surviving family agrees.
Zipz@reddit
These people live in lala land
flossdaily@reddit
Israelis aren't genocidal. That's a sickening blood libel. It didn't matter how many times you repeat it. It simply isn't true.
But Hamas certainly is genocidal, as they happily admit to.
pasher5620@reddit
Yeah, they totally aren’t genocidal, despite many of the Israeli leadership outright stating they want to kill all Palestinians. Yup, just ignore how they regularly do genocide as recognized by the world’s experts on the matter. Israel put out a press briefing saying they aren’t genocidal so it must be true.
Leshawkcomics@reddit
If every authority on the subject from the UN to academia agrees you’re committing a genocide, then youre genocidal. No matter how much it seems to make you mad to hear it.
Thats what the guy talking to you needs to understand.
“You cant be more upset about being called genocidal than you are at being genocidal.”
flossdaily@reddit
Really it's basically just one finance minister who is saying that.. And he was deliberately excluded from the war cabinet for his views.
No one has ever offered a shed of evidence that any order to our within the IDF had genocidal intent.
Ala117@reddit
Along with the rest of the democratically elected government.
meister2983@reddit
Actually, they are far more brutal toward the Palestinians when they are armed. There's lots of problems in Area B, but Gaza is 1-2 orders of magnitude worse.
Given that's the next step here, what's the problem with proceeding?
odysseyOC@reddit
if they disarm before the new government is there to receive the arms the gangs take over immediately
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
What's the point of 200 US bodies there, then.
They're there to oversee, and approve of military against anything funny to the deal.
justhistory@reddit (OP)
They’re scared of the gangs, clans, and Gazans in general. Let the people have their retribution on Hamas. I have no problem with Mussolini-style deaths for Hamas leaders, “A fitting end to a wretched life”
Stubbs94@reddit
Except you know... They've offered to give up control of the civil administration of Gaza to a Palestinian led authority. What good is a state if the occupation won't end when they disarm?
Weirdyxxy@reddit
While keeping the military force to control the civil administration?
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
I recognize that smell living in Southeast Asia.
Good ol' military "backed" governments. Load of crap.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
They agreed to reform the PLO and share power in Gaza in 2005 too. They also explicitly nullified all deal with Israel in their charter. I don’t think they’re very good at making deals and keeping them.
Stubbs94@reddit
They offered Israel multiple truces for a return to the 1967 borders.... Hamas have in a roundabout way accepted a two state solution... Has Israel ever said they will accept a completely free and independent Palestinian state?
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Riiiiiggggghhhht. In the next sentence they go on to say how they’ll never recognize a state of Israel and how all Palestine should be free between two bodies of water. Been a pretty popular chat amongst people in western countries. Can’t have a two state solution when one side wine acknowledge the existence of the other.
Stubbs94@reddit
Israel has stated they will never under any circumstance recognize a Palestinian state. Do you believe that's a horrible thing too? Hamas have at least attempted to change their rhetoric and soft acknowledge a border between Palestine and Israel. Israel has been illegally occupying Palestine for decades.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Except when they offered Palestinians all those deals right? How many two state solution deals have been offered and then rejected in favor of violence again? The mere existence of prior offers from Israel to create a Palestinian state totally poops on your argument. Try again.
Stubbs94@reddit
There was never a deal by Israel to offer a free, independent Palestinian state along the 1967 borders.
the-bladed-one@reddit
The 67 borders are no longer viable or tenable to the coherence of Israel as it stands now. That’s the geopolitical reality. This is the same argument as America giving back all the native lands-it just isn’t going to happen. Is it right? No. Is it fair? No. But international politics isn’t run on fairness.
Go read some Thucydides.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Yes, because it’s totally sensible for Israel is to give up all of Jerusalem and allow every single Palestinian person to immigrate back. Palestinians had the 67 Borders or better multiple times, again they chose to start wars instead. Palestinians aren’t so good at staying on their side of the line.
sivvon@reddit
Now you've googled some talking points on the peace talks. But which one? Oslo? Camp David?
All of Jerusalem was never on the table by either side. At any of of the peace talks. East Jerusalem was.
You should stop trying to have a conversation where you clearly lack even a basic understanding of its history.
The exact 67 borders were not on the table and is why they were rejected each time. Palestine was never offered a contiguous state.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
They rejected the partition plan, the white paper, camp David, Taba, Annapolis zzzz
“A Palestinian state on 94-96% of the West Bank and all of Gaza, with land swaps to accommodate major Israeli settlement blocs”
By bad 6% land retained by Israel for the border.
sivvon@reddit
And why did they reject it? I don't think you have ever critically analysed this from a neutral or even the palestinian pov purely as an intellectual exercise.
Your complete lack of imagination in your posts as to why peace talks have failed previously are telling.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
They rejected it because of no right of return to Israel proper as well as the newly created Palestinian state…
sivvon@reddit
That was one aspect, but not the most important.
I'm not sure what you mean by the newly created Palestinian state.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Why did Taba happen? Because Arafat realized he made a mistake, then publicly vilified Israel and came crawling back.
Stubbs94@reddit
The 1967 borders didn't include all of Jerusalem... And no they didn't. Every offer from Israel has included stipulations of Israeli control of resources and borders.
sivvon@reddit
This guy is in way too deep. He has no idea about what has been offered at the peace talks and the reasons for them stalling or being rejected by Arafat. He's gone and done some googling to try and save face but yet. It's obvious he is clueless.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
6 day war: Israel captured
The Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip from Egypt.
The West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan.
The Golan Heights from Syria.
Which of these was previously part of “Palestine” again?
Stubbs94@reddit
The part still occupied by "Israel".
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
That doesn’t answer my question
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Famously, at the 2000 Camp David Summit, Ehud Barak offered a partitioning of Jerusalem. Israeli control of the West Bank would be only 8% (compared to 60% now) The offers he made were so good for Palestinians that he lost the election for them.
There will never be another deal where Israel offers any portion of Jerusalem.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Clinton says this too, you reject the offer that gave you 95% of everything you wanted... you can't come back to the table 25 years later and expect the same or better deal to be on the table
Leshawkcomics@reddit
This guy is just deflecting at this point. Jumping from “well they did” to “well they didnt, but that’s expected.” As if the guy knew they didnt to begin with and was just trying to waste your time
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
They asked for their capital to be Jerusalem go read it again.
sivvon@reddit
You show a lack of knowledge of the details of the peace deals in this post. If you read them you would come to quickly realise why they were rejected.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Yes you’re right rejecting a deal containing 98% of your ask with no further negotiations isn’t close to good enough.
sivvon@reddit
It wasn't 98%. You've shown a distinct lack of cursory knowledge of any of the major peace talks.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
A Palestinian state on 94-96% of the West Bank and all of Gaza, with land swaps to accommodate major Israeli settlement blocs.
My bad off by 2%
meister2983@reddit
Only recently because Palestine is failing to moderate. They were open to before
860v2@reddit
Nope, you just misread. Hamas’ stated goal is the destruction of Israel and the liberation of “Palestine” (current day Israel). They view the 67 borders as a way for them to achieve those goals.
This is all in their charters.
Stubbs94@reddit
So, don't give the Palestinians their basic right to self determination because of that? Continue the occupation that is causing the deaths of Jews... Sounds a bit anti semitic there mate.
860v2@reddit
Yes, since “their basic right to self determination” includes killing Jewish people and destroying a sovereign nation.
Ah yes, Jewish people getting killed in antisemitic attacks is Jewish peoples’ fault. Great logic. /s
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Do you not remember how that turned out? Israel arrested everyone from Hamas they could, incited a civil war and pressured Fatah and the PLO with deligitimization if they didn't agree to abandon efforts to share power with Hamas.
Lol and you want to talk about honesty in dealing
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Oh yeah and finally
“As a result of the battle, Hamas took complete control of Gaza. The pro-Fatah view is that it was a plain military coup by Hamas. The pro-Hamas view is that the US drew up a plan to arm Fatah cadres with the aim of forcefully removing Hamas from power in Gaza, and that Fatah fighters, led by commander Mohammed Dahlan with logistical support from the US Central Intelligence Agency, were planning to carry out a bloody coup against Hamas.[43] Then, Hamas pre-emptively took control over Gaza”
So the Hamas narrative doesn’t even blame Israel, but here you are trying to speak for them? I’m confused.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
“According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, the June 2007 escalation was triggered by Hamas's conviction that the Palestinian Presidential Guard—expanded by the United States to 3,500 men and loyal to Mahmoud Abbas—was being positioned to take control of Gaza.[35] On 10 June 2007, the Fatah–Hamas conflict culminated in clashes between Fatah-allied forces and Hamas-allied forces. The primary Fatah forces were the Palestinian National Security Forces, particularly the Presidential Guard. The main force of Hamas was the Executive Force. Hamas militants seized several Fatah members and threw one of them, Mohammed Sweirki, an officer in the Presidential Guard, off the top of the tallest building in Gaza, a 15-story apartment building. In retaliation, Fatah militants attacked and killed the imam of the city's Great Mosque, Mohammed al-Rifati. They also opened fire on the home of Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh. Just before midnight, a Hamas militant was thrown off a 12-story building.[36] On 11 June, gunmen opened fire on the Palestinian cabinet building while the government was meeting inside. Fatah gunmen fired shots at the residence of Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, of Hamas, in Gaza City, but no casualties were reported.[37][38] On 12 June, Hamas began attacking posts held by their Fatah rivals. Hundreds of Hamas fighters had moved on the positions after giving their occupants two hours to leave. A major Fatah base in the northern town of Jabalia fell to Hamas fighters, witnesses told AFP news agency. Heavy fighting also raged around the main Fatah headquarters in Gaza City, with Hamas militants attacking with rocket-propelled grenades and automatic weapons.[39] On 13 June, Hamas attacked the headquarters of the Palestinian National Security Forces in northern Gaza. Gunmen fought for control of high-rise buildings serving as sniper positions, and Hamas said it had bulldozed a Fatah outpost controlling Gaza's main north–south road. Also on that day, an explosion wrecked the Khan Yunis headquarters of the Fatah-linked Palestinian Preventive Security, killing five people.[2] On 14 June, President Abbas announced the dissolution of the unity government and declared a state of emergency as Hamas militants took over vehicles and weapons in the National Security headquarters compound—Abbas' residence.[40] The gunmen who entered the compound held a prayer there and waved a flag on the building's rooftop. At least 10 people were killed. Hamas TV broadcast a display of weapons inside the building, as well as jeeps, mortar shells and bulletproof vests seized in the compound, which, according to Hamas, were smuggled to Fatah by Israel and the Americans in the past few months across the border with Egypt.[41] Hamas also changed the name of the neighborhood where the building is located from "Tel al-Hawa" to "Tel al-Islam".[41] On the afternoon of 14 June, the Associated Press reported an explosion that rocked Gaza City. According to Fatah officials, security forces withdrew from their post and blew it up in order to not let Hamas take it over. The security forces later repositioned to another location. Later on 14 June, Hamas also took control of the southern Gaza Strip city of Rafah, which lies near an already closed border crossing with Egypt that, a crossing that is monitored by Israeli, Palestinian, and European Union security forces. The EU staff had, at that time, already been relocated to the Israeli city of Ashkelon for safety reasons.[citation needed] On 15 June, Hamas completed taking control of the Gaza Strip, seizing all PNA government institutions and replacing all PNA officials in Gaza with Hamas members.[4][42]”
Still no mention of Israel helping anyone. Hamas did throw a bunch of Fatah guys off a roof though to start a major war for control of Gaza. Wonder why Israel wanted to militarize its border?
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
“Hamas was receiving money and arms from Iran, and possibly Syria, and was threatening to increase its Executive Force to 6,000 men. At that point, the U.S. began to provide training in urban anti-terrorist techniques to members of the Presidential Guard, with the goal of strengthening Abbas's security forces. Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey also began to provide similar training for the Fatah forces, and Britain, Spain, and the European Union began to provide communications equipment, vehicles, and logistical support.l”
Still no mention of israel. Lots of mentions of Iranian influence.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Again, not even close to historically accurate. It was actually the British who aided Fatah.
“Documents published in the Palestine Papers reveal that in 2004, the British Secret Intelligence Service helped to draw up a security plan for the Fatah-led PNA. The plan proposed a number of ways to degrade the capabilities of opposition groups such as Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), and the al-Aqsa Brigades. The strategy would involve disruption of command, control, and communications capabilities, detention of key officials, and confiscation of their weapons and financial resources.This plan was passed to Jibril Rajoub, a senior Fatah official of the PNA, and most of the stated objectives were achieved by the West Bank-based PNA security apparatus.”
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
There’s no mention outside of conspiracy theories of Israel causing their civil war. It was pressure on Abbas from the international community, Hamas not upholding the agreements they made and the power struggle that ensued.
themightycatp00@reddit
They've offered to become what hezbollah is in Lebanon
All the glory of being a jihadists and none of of the headache of cleaning up the post war mess, and if anyone calls you out you publicly execute them.
Brief_Fly6950@reddit
It’s the exact opposite actually. They offered to disintegrate their militant wing once the Palestinian state is established.
themightycatp00@reddit
Palestinian statehood is not in the cards for this deal
It's probably not going to happen for a long time after october 7th
Brief_Fly6950@reddit
That’s why they said they won’t commit to disarm in this deal.
themightycatp00@reddit
Well they could stay dependent on international food agencies, not have any control of their borders, and rule over ~47% while Israel controls the rest
what position of power they have to make demands?
Stubbs94@reddit
Or Israel could just end the fucking occupation, you know... End the decades of violent abuse towards Palestinians.
themightycatp00@reddit
Why would we reward violence against us? Let me guess you have a dominatrix on retainer?
Stubbs94@reddit
Rewarding violence? Are you that deluded? The occupation is the reason for the violence... Jesus Christ.
themightycatp00@reddit
Rewarding violence? Are you that deluded? The occupation is the reason for the violence... Jesus Christ.
There was arab violence against jews in that area way before Israel was established
Stubbs94@reddit
So the occupation is justified because of historic mistreatment of Jews? That's psychotic. I guess just keep occupying Palestine and be shocked every time the indigenous population revolts against said occupation.... Can't think of any reason why they would possibly not accept an occupation that constantly murders their children.
themightycatp00@reddit
So "the occupation" isn't what causes violence, and "ending" it won't solve anything
It's astounding I had to baby feed that conclusion to you
Brief_Fly6950@reddit
Historic incidents of violence against Jews have zero relevance to this topic. Every single modern attack by Palestinians has its root cause in occupation and colonization.
themightycatp00@reddit
He brought historic treatment and made it relevant. You can't jump into the conversation and cherry pick what is and isn't relevant
Stubbs94@reddit
"we need to strip these people of their human rights because they are savages" is what you're saying. You're literally saying Palestinians deserve to be collectively punished. Should Germany also be occupied and brutalised by Israel? Or France? Or maybe Spain because of the Spanish inquisition....
themightycatp00@reddit
Don't put words in my mouth. I've never said anything that amounted to that.
When? When did I say that? I literally advocated against violence
Or maybe jews should just have a country where Europeans don't butcher us to pass the time, even now no ethnic group on earth went through what you did us
TipiTapi@reddit
And then when another terrorist militia attacks israel from the strip 1-2 years from now they have your blessing to bomb the whole place to rubble again?
Brief_Fly6950@reddit
Well it’s not as if Israel wanted to stop the genocide. Pressure prompted Israel to take what Trump presented (after adding modifications). If Hamas can somehow convince the mediators of its modifications as well (for the sake of keeping the deal intact), it may be able to keep a part of its weaponry.
meister2983@reddit
I don't recall them ever agreeing to both give up politics and military.
Stubbs94@reddit
They agree to disarm in a situation where a Palestinian state is established. I don't see what's wrong with that.
meister2983@reddit
No, that's just entering politics and controlling the Palestinian military. As I stress, they never agreed to both conditions, which is what "disarm" should mean.
Stubbs94@reddit
The Zionist militias that formed the IDF did the exact same, not sure why it's any different. The Palestinians have a right to form a military for self defense, especially when they will border an expansionist colonial state
meister2983@reddit
Israel won is the key difference.
I didn't say that didn't. I said Hamas as a condition of the peace treaty must disarm and get out of politics.
Lizardledgend@reddit
...what a ghoul you are
BaPef@reddit
That's how wars kind of work especially when you lose a war that you started. The loser of a war doesn't get to dictate the after for the government. The people get to form a new government and new military and Hamas cannot be involved. Fair or not those were the conditions presented if Hamas rejects them then fighting continues. I hate this shit and wish it was over but Hamas is not winning this and should do what's best for the people not themselves.
meister2983@reddit
Sorry that you don't understand how the world works. Doesn't make me a "ghoul"
pasher5620@reddit
So if Hamas had won and gotten rid of Israel, you wouldn’t have any problem with it? Tf is this line of reasoning?
meister2983@reddit
No that violates international law. Hamas is not a legitimate government of anything.
But I dunno if Al Qassam Brigades had won a battle against say the Hilltop Youth and they ordered to disarm, yeah that's fair
Vegetable-College-17@reddit
Half of an Israeli supporters belief system is "we have more weapons and are backed by a superpower, we deserve to take things from others". So it's no surprise he thinks like this.
TipiTapi@reddit
I always wonder... are you malicious or have you just never thought about this? Because it makes absolutely 0 sense. There cant be an independent civil administration while a paramilitary group has all the weapons. Itnwould mean the administration can never ever enforce their will on Hamas so they would be a puppet government.
Ala117@reddit
israel do be like that, yes.
flossdaily@reddit
Yup. If Hamas had put the Palestinian civilians ahead of themselves, there never would have been a war to begin with.
CricketJamSession@reddit
No suprise, a terrorist organization being a terrorist organization.
Its now up to counties participating in this deal to ensure hamas does not get a second chance to dictate the palestinian people
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Lol, they're the only ones who actually had some kind of democratic mandate. The PA is even less legitimate, and a Tony Blair led technocracy of rich people isn't exactly a democratic improvement...
Like, sure, Hamas is not great, but easy with the pearlclutching
Rindan@reddit
Hamas has no democratic mandate. Most of the Palestinians were literally not alive the last time Hamas allowed an election.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Weren’t you among the group that two years ago was saying that Palestinians elected Hamas, and therefore mass murdering Palestinians was justified?
DevA248@reddit
Schrodinger's Palestinian support for Hamas.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Whatever Hamas has the PA has less. Tony Blair has less
CricketJamSession@reddit
A terrorist group should not govern anyone no matter what
It should not be a controvertial statement
TraditionalGap1@reddit
And genocidal extremists pushing war crimes for political gain not governing anyone either shouldn't be a controversial statement either, but that's the world we live in. You play the cards you're dealt. All the platitudes and handwringing and virtue signals about 'terrorism' aren't going to change anything.
If you want to fight some more, insist they disarm and go away. If you want to find a solution that doesn't involve more violence, you'll have to deal with Hamas. They've certainly expressed a lot of openness to a negotiated settlement.
JPolReader@reddit
You just described Hamas. If we want Lukid out of power, how can we possibly support Hamas being in power?
TraditionalGap1@reddit
You're missing the point entirely. It's not about 'wanting' or 'supporting' one side or the other side in or out of power. It's about acknowledging that they exist, they they are there in power regardless of what you might prefer and dealing with that reality.
Or don't, and go back to trying to deradicalize them by the ton (of bombs).
JPolReader@reddit
Well, the bombs have been working quite well.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Really? Hamas are gone now? Or is your measure of success actually the number of dead Palestinian children?
JPolReader@reddit
The measure of success for Israel is how much threat they are under. The bombs have been working quite well for that.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
The measure of success seems to change wildly and often. Israel is under no more or less threat now than they were 12 or 18 months ago. Or did you believe Hamas could potentially destroy Israel? Does Hamas have a secret air force? Nukes? No? So your measure of success is badly flawed.
JPolReader@reddit
The number of rocket attacks and Hamas fighters are less than 18 months ago. Even if you ignore everything else that is progress. Compared to the beginning of the war which Hamas started, there has been even more progress.
Interesting how the Palestinian crowd desperately wants to ignore that October 7th happened.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
70,000 dead, mostly civilians. 20,000 children dead minimum. Your bloodlust is on full display. Only you can’t see that.
You may have heard this before, but history did not begin on October 7…
JPolReader@reddit
I was wondering when the ad homin would start.
I have no dog in this fight. I'm just explaining the reality of the situation.
sivvon@reddit
By all objectives, it failed. Support globally has also plunged to new lows. Israel is a pariah state. So militarily and on the PR front, they have failed.
JPolReader@reddit
Support is only low among anti-semites. Meanwhile Hamas and Hezbollah have been crippled, Iran routed and Israel has permission to bomb certain areas of Lebanon.
Only the Houthi remain as a threat in the region.
sivvon@reddit
Granted, Lebanon has really been dealt a blow since Nasrallah's death. You are talking about many different and wider conflicts.
For Gaza specifically. They have not achieved their own military objectives.
Your comment about support is only low amongst anti-semites was a good laugh. This is why you aren't taken seriously and are considered a hasbara troll
JPolReader@reddit
Their objectives were the return of hostages and the destruction of Hamas.
93% of hostages have been returned including 100% of living hostages.
Putting an exact number on Hamas' capability is difficult, but rocket attacks have slowed to a trickle with 10k to 20k deaths. I would probably rate that at a 2/3 to 3/4 level of progress.
My facts are met with insults. Unsurprising.
sivvon@reddit
After 2 years of genocide and famine. Multiple ICC warrants, individual sanctions and losing global support for their Zionist project and being seen by many for the first time how sick Israel is as a society. That cost is immeasurable.
Hamas just negotiated a ceasefire and has refused to disarm. After all the death, bombs and misery Hamas is still there and has just retaken control of the unoccupied sections of Gaza.
A huge outlay of resources, human life and political capital and goodwill has been expended for not much.
This has been a failure by all measures.
Tetr4Freak@reddit
So we settle on both being out of power? Ok you got a deal
JPolReader@reddit
That isn't the position of this sub.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Is that your position? Or are you now saying you want Likud in power?
JPolReader@reddit
I want neither in power.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Weirdly, you spout a lot of far right Israeli talking points. The problem isn’t Palestinians or Hamas. Hamas almost vanished all by themselves until Netanyahu arranged them to get more funding. The problem is the Israeli Knesset and the fact that almost all of them oppose a Palestinian state.
JPolReader@reddit
What? Facts are far right propaganda now?
Hamas was the government of Gaza when the PA cut off funding and Netanyahu organized Qatar to fund the civilian government apparatus. I guess you would hate aid going to Gaza though.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Talking points aren’t facts. At best they are incomplete parts of a fact.
Now you are attempting to paint Netanyahu as the protector and saviour of Palestinians. Laughable.
JPolReader@reddit
No, just stating facts.
Netanyahu is a fascist asshole, but I don't support lies even about him.
MeEyeSlashU@reddit
It's almost like Hamas isn't genocidal. Making great choices? Leading very well? Maybe not. But they're backed into a corner by a much larger, well-armed and -funded military with few to no options.
JPolReader@reddit
So putting genocide of the Jews in their charter means that they aren't for genocide?
The Charter of Hamas - HRC fist special session - NGO statement (World Union for Progressive Judaism, Association for World Education) - Question of Palestine https://share.google/bwW55lUdnZ36ljusX
Policy-brief-Sara-E.-Brown.pdf https://share.google/PmYN5lmYvPScZtuBc
Hamas’ October 7th Genocide: Legal Analysis and the Weaponisation of Reverse Accusations – A Study in Modern Genocide Recognition and Denial | Israel Law Review | Cambridge Core https://share.google/qhcBo8smPORqlh80E
sivvon@reddit
This HRC link is from 2006. 11 years before Hamas released a new charter in 2017. Which changes a lot of the antisemitic and problematic language and focuses on and explicitly stated its issue is with the illegitimate Zionist entity. Not with Jews.
Since you can't even link relevant, up to date analysis of Hamas and most likely didn't on purpose what point is there reading the rest of your post and links.
JPolReader@reddit
Do you really think that an organization would abandon genocidal ambition so easily?
Interesting that you want to ignore what Hamas themselves have said their goal is.
sivvon@reddit
They are analysing the Hamas charter from 1988. That isn't 2017, or 2025. I didn't make it past that link, as I mentioned in my post because, why bother?
JPolReader@reddit
I have three links which support each other from 2006, 2023 and 2025.
sivvon@reddit
And the first one was out of date by decades. Why did you include it? Perhaps provide some further context or people dismissing the post as not worth the energy is pretty spot on.
JPolReader@reddit
So you are dismissing it without even reading it, considering it or arguing against the content.
Well, that is about what I expected.
sivvon@reddit
Did you read why? I explicitly stated why. At least show you can follow a conversation
CricketJamSession@reddit
You have to be a special kind of naive (or dishonest) to say something like this. Violence is at their core and they are proud of it.
pasher5620@reddit
Hamas was the only one to ever come to the table with any kind of real peace deal. To say violence is at their core is supremely ironic giving the realities of the aggressions between Israel and Palestine.
BackseatCowwatcher@reddit
Hamas- stating that their 'goal' is the total 'liberation' of the region from Jews.
that the 1967 borders are a temporary position leading up to said 'liberation'.
that deals, peaceful solutions, and international conferences are in contradiction to their goal of total 'liberation'.
that they will commit 10/7s until the last Jew has been driven from the land.
Violence is the core of Hamas's values, to claim otherwise is to ignore reality in favor of a fiction where they are not the core of the issue.
sivvon@reddit
You misquote The charter. The charter from 2017 says they will liberate Palestinian land from the Zionist project. The new charter also explicitly says its issue is with Zionism. Not Jews.
They do not speak of the "region" and they do not say they will liberate said region from Jews.
It's important you use the correct language and don't misrepresent either side.
No where in the charter do they say the 1967 borders are a temporary solution.
I'm guessing you haven't read the 2017 charter. You also keep saying Jew instead of Zionists. This has to be a wilful misquoting of the charter to frame this in the way you want.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
It's no fun if you just turn your brain off
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Are you still talking about Hamas or did you swap topics to Israel’s genocide?
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Do you uhh... not see what I'm getting at? The double standard being proffered here?
pasher5620@reddit
The only reason they ever even got in power is because Israel kept slaughtering Palestinians and Hamas was the only ones willing to actually fight back. Like, yeah, their actions are reprehensible, but Palestinians have no other real options if they want to continue existing. Any none military force that doesn’t have weapons to defend Palestine with will be steamrolled by Israel when they come for the rest. Disarmament was never going to happen and should never happen because Israel will immediately take advantage of that.
CricketJamSession@reddit
Weird how you try to convince me that the only way for the palestinians to survive is to be controlled by a murderous terror regime.
If you really can't think of any other way then i might start to suspect that you prefer it that way.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
What’s your clever way? Appeal to the UK to slightly reduce the amount of weapons they sell to Israel? Appeal yo Israelis’ humanity and beg them not to kill quite so many children?
Time and again only opposing force propels this murderous regime’s actions into the spotlight.
CricketJamSession@reddit
Openly supporting hamas staying in power is becoming quite popular around this unhinged parts of the internet huh?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Everything you are saying leads to Israel mass murdering ever more Palestinians with even less opposition than is present now. Why is that? Is it because that is your ideal outcome?
CricketJamSession@reddit
Its because a terrorist group that also kills palestinians doesn't help to prevent any death and only increase it.
Why are you so convinced that hamas are the protectors of the palestinian people? Who's narrative are you pushing?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
I’m not pushing a narrative, I’m trying to push facts and logic. Pushing a narrative means lying or omitting inconvenient facts to try and present your side as being less evil than it is.
Let me give you an example: Did Israel commit genocide in Gaza over the last two years?
CricketJamSession@reddit
No its choosing half truths and connecting specific dots while ignoring others accoding to the massage you are trying to push.
And you are talking about a lot of indirect stuff to challenge the simple truth that hamas is a terror group in its core and so are they methods and goals and they use those methods against their own people and the people of israel, and at their core they said time and time again that their higher goal is to slaughter jews in the land and replace all of israel with palestinians through the most brutal of methods and when that is complete you will get another islamist dicatorship state that opress everyone outside their agenda
And there is no scenario of peace in that region while a terror group dictate the actions of palestinians (or an extreme government that dictate the actions of israeli because you are so eager to talk about israel)
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Yes, Hamas is a terrorist group. No, you can’t answer a simple yes/no question…
sivvon@reddit
If you can't see that diplomacy, negotiations and using the UN over many decades has failed to bring self determination, contiguous borders and sovereignty and basic human rights then I might suspect you are a mouth breather.
CricketJamSession@reddit
So someone wise like you understand that terror is the way?
sivvon@reddit
I'm not advocating for anything. One must understand the human condition and to understand motivations, hopes, dreams and aspirations of both sides. One must also look at the past through a non hyper partisan eye like you to then provide a position based on reality, morality and pragmatism combined.
CricketJamSession@reddit
One must not fool himself into believing that letting hamas stay in power is a somehow acceptable or preferable with enough mental gymnastics.
sivvon@reddit
Again, not my point. But thanks for continually trying to strawman me. My posts are directed at you predominantly.
pasher5620@reddit
The fact that you somehow got “only terrorrists should run Palestine” from what I wrote just says you are either unwilling or incapable of basic critical thinking skills.
Aquariano_Nato_13@reddit
Yeah
But Hamas is not a terrorist group
CricketJamSession@reddit
Thank god this opinion is only lurking on dumb parts of the internet and third world countries
travistravis@reddit
The issue is who are the ones determining a "terorrist" government. Israel definitely hits all the same boxes Hamas does, if not more. The United States also checks quite a few boxes, especially lately, with their drone strikes on fishing boats (and definitely do historically).
Tankshock@reddit
They both are
SRGsergan592@reddit
So why ask only one of them to disarm?
MaestroRozen@reddit
What are the consequences of each side disarming?
I keep hearing how Hamas disarming would spell disaster for the Palestinians as they couldn't fight off Israel any longer. This would imply that they could fight it off until now, which is wholly untrue. Hamas is still a poorly equipped terrorist organization where IDF is a modern army. Only effective "weapon" that Hamas has are dead civilians on both sides. Only thing that Hamas disarming accomplishes is guarantee that they can't harm anymore civilians or cling to what little power they have left through the only method they have, which is violence; against a military with actual intelligence, airforce, artillery and tanks there's already little difference from being barehanded.
On the other hand, Israel has been fighting defensive wars since literally the moment it was founded. Yes, there should be consequences for their actions, but disarmament ain't it. When surrounded by factions who've been trying to destroy you for as long as you exist, having a bigger stick than all of them is as much of a basic necessity as having food and water. Disarm Israel and it'd cease to exist within a month. You'd get to see what an actual, full scale genocide looks nice.
AlashMarch@reddit
You make a good point about disarmament. Being armed evidently did not protect Palestine from one of the worst genocides in the 21st century. Its unclear how being armed help.
SRGsergan592@reddit
People still call what's happening in Gaza a "defensive war"
MaestroRozen@reddit
Where did I say that? What is happening in Gaza today does not erase all the wars since the 6 day war, nor does it change the consequences of Israel disarming.
SRGsergan592@reddit
6 days war started after a series of provocations and strikes on the border by Israel.
Nowadays Jordan is ruled by a cuck monarch who would do anything to please the US, same thing with Egypt but with a military backed dictator.
Saudi Arabia has no interest in displeasing the US and the UAE is very friendly with Israel, Qatar basically has no military, and Syria is in chambles.
So tell me again who is threatening the existence of Israel?
MaestroRozen@reddit
Stop with the fairytale that Arab side was wholly innocent in 6 day war. Then there were 1947 war - an attempt to destroy Israel literally the moment it was founded, Yom Kippur war, and so on.
Do you honestly think that with all the bad blood in the region, Arab states would not take the opportunity to do what they were trying to for the past 70 years if Israel suddenly found itself with no military? All I can say is that for someone who considers the entirety of Gazan population paying for sins of Hamas to be unacceptable, you're awfully eager to see the entirety of Israeli population pay for sins of Likud.
SRGsergan592@reddit
So you are against Hamas disarming ?
MaestroRozen@reddit
If you actually read my original comment before trying to engage in a discussion you'd know my answer and explanation. Though it might have impede your ability to reduce it to a single out of context sentence so I understand why you wouldn't do that.
SRGsergan592@reddit
Your initial comment says nothing you are basically saying Hamas can't stop Israel from bombing Gaza so they should disarm and let them take it without any resistance.
Then you ignored the fact that all the major powers around Israel are American puppets and one US base there would stop them from trying anything.
And then you tried to play the why should the people of Israel disarm because of Likud actions which apply for Hamas too.
So again what are you trying to say apart from goalposting and deflecting?
MaestroRozen@reddit
You must have missed the part of the peace deal where an international peacekeeping force will take place. Can't exactly start killing those and claiming doubts that they are Hamas - especially if Hamas as an armed force ceases to exist.
You must have also missed the part where Iran still exists as a major regional force, and likes employing proxies to wage their war for them. Israel was not just fighting Hamas. Hezbollah and Houthi took a major part in rhe conflict as well - and talking about them, their host countries are too weak to stop them from terrorizing their own populations, let alone acting outside of it. Can a single US base guarantee complete safety with that in mind? Can it guarantee to stop lesser acts of aggression as well, that missiles will not be launched and terror attacks will not be committed? Because something tells me US ain't risking a full scale war over those.
Even if above was true - do you really want Israel to fully rely on the US to keeping them safe, putting their existence in hands of Donald fucking Trump - a man who changes opinions more often than he changes underwear? And hoping that the next president will look favorably upon them? And the next. And the next. And the next. That ain't happening.
I can ask you the same. If you truly, sincerely, can't discern the difference between the two then I doubt anything I say will make you see logic.
SRGsergan592@reddit
It literally guaranteed the safety of micro states with trillions of dollars worth of natural resources and military whatsoever.
Ala117@reddit
Tell that to israel.
HansBrickface@reddit
You’re a terrorist.
Now that that’s been established, anything my government chooses to do to you is justified.
CricketJamSession@reddit
You really think that?
Well thank god you're just a random internet wanker and your opinions don't matter
flossdaily@reddit
You're not wrong about their democratic mandate.
So the question we need to ask is: what's more moral: to allow the Palestinians to vote themselves back into a terrorist state, or to impose on them a government that will strive for peace, and hopefully Western values like plurality, secularism, equal rights, etc.?
ElKidDelPueblo@reddit
If you want them to become “de-radicalized” maybe stop committing genocide upon them first.
How effective will de-radicalization be while Palestinian children grow up with life altering medical issues due to suffering famine at the hands of the people trying to de-radicalize them? While they struggle to live life disabled because of how many child amputees the IDF is responsible for? While there are so many orphans and children with no family members left? Will you de-radicalize them in the rubble of the schools Israel has destroyed?
Want to stop de-radicalization? Ensure Netanyahu and everyone responsible for perpetuating this unnecessary genocide face consequences, then maybe they’ll have some sort of trust in that process. We cannot simply go back to pre-Oct 7th treatment of Palestinians and pretend that’s enough.
flossdaily@reddit
There is no genocide. There is a war with an extraordinary low non-combatant to combatant death ratio.
Three genocide blood libel is getting in the way of honest discussion, and real resolution to the conflict.
ElKidDelPueblo@reddit
Israel’s own data shows 83% of deaths are civilians. That’s not “extremely low” that …
“is extremely high for modern warfare, even compared with conflicts notorious for indiscriminate killing, including the Syrian and Sudanese civil wars.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2025/aug/21/revealed-israeli-militarys-own-data-indicates-civilian-death-rate-of-83-in-gaza-war
Pair that with the deliberate starvation of the population and the sabotage of necessary infrastructure, and I’ll continue to trust the many Human Rights organizations and genocide expects which classify it as such. “Blood libel”, give me a break.
flossdaily@reddit
No, this was a cherry picked stat, from rando anonymous sources. It was never the official position of Israel. At the UN, Netanyahu put the ratio at 1:1 in his address.
In all combat where air strikes are used in urban areas, the noncombatant to combatant death ratio is an average of 9:1. So even if you're stat were true, it would still be on par for the average war of this type. That's a heck of an achievement given that Hamas's strategy is to maximize their own civilian deaths in exchange for public relations points.
In all wars where
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
If that is a cherry picked stat, why doesn’t the IDF release their stats? Is it because it’s the same or worse?
flossdaily@reddit
I didn't know why the IDF isn't putting this stuff out. Maybe they're just busy defeating evil.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
There are several possibilities:
If it was 4 then the IDF would be broadcasting this information to anyone and everyone who has eyes or ears…
flossdaily@reddit
I mean that's what it is when netanyahu is broadcasting it to the world at the UN.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
With no word from the IDF? No list of militants killed? They can release the names of all 35,000 members of Hamas - their names and ranks - but they don’t.
xray-pishi@reddit
70k dead minimum (total definitely higher but we don't know how much higher).
35k militants.
1:1 civilian/militant ratio according to Netanyahu.
Wouldn't this mean that all the militants are dead? Hmmm...
flossdaily@reddit
Your problem is that you're assuming that all militants in Gaza are Hamas. That's absolutely not the case. Palestinian Islamic jihad, is another organized group within Gaga, for example.
xray-pishi@reddit
I'm not assuming that, I am well aware that in Gaza there are a bunch of allied groups fighting. And no, not Hamas, but al-Qassam, and not PIJ but Saraya etc. Plus note that after these two, numbers drop off quickly. PLFP'S AAM Brigades prob only has a few hundred fighters in Gaza for example.
The issue is, Israel almost never uses any of these names or distinctions in its public rhetoric, calling them all "Hamas" probably to make things easier for Americans etc to understand.
I haven't seen the sources for these numbers, but if Israel distributed then for global consumption, it is very unlikely that when they give the size of Hamas, they are not actually talking about the combined size of military wings. Makes no sense to count some random PLFP bureaucrat in the WB for example.
Or, of they were actually giving the size of h "Hamas" including its politicians, media, armed wing etc, this number would also be roughly equal to "all fighting Gazans" anyway.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Careful. We’re one step away from bringing told that doing basic maths is antisemitic.
sivvon@reddit
Who's evil? Have you seen the state of the released dead hostages of Palestinians. Showing signs of torture, rape, abuse and execution. Also there are now claims that organs have been harvested.
They also returned them cuffed, bound and blindfolded and without identification outside of a number. Who's evil?
flossdaily@reddit
Hamas.
sivvon@reddit
Troll.
sivvon@reddit
Ahh playing dumb. Cute. You know why they don't reveal any information that does not paint them in a positive light.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Bwahahahahahahahahahaha yeah real credible source there
xray-pishi@reddit
Wtf do you think "blood libel" even means?
If you want to talk about things getting in the way of honest discussion, using a term that means "accusing Jewish people of using gentile children's blood in rituals" to describe the actions of Israel during its invasion of Gaza might also be a bit of a problem.
sivvon@reddit
If somebody says blood libel it's a sure sign you are talking to a hasbara Muppet.
sivvon@reddit
Honest discussion and real resolution he says...all while denying genocide and the size of the death and suffering of Palestinians.
You can't make this up...
Hasbara troll spotted. "Blood libel"
sivvon@reddit
Exporting democracy has worked so well so far. I can't tell if you are naive or just a mouth breather who doesn't know his basic history, modern or otherwise.
Only an American can think that everyone wants to live in a society exactly like them and it should be forced on everyone via violence.
flossdaily@reddit
I mean, the US, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia, are all success stories for colonization and the spread of Western values and democracy.
sivvon@reddit
I mean, you totally misunderstood my point if you are pointing to those countries as examples. Again, probably on purpose.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
“We know what’s best for Palestinians, and that’s as a disarmed non-state group that Israelis can butcher at will while stealing from! Anything else is rewarding terrorism!”
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Thankfully in the real world there's more than those two options.
Ala117@reddit
Because only israel is allowed to do that right?
Colodanman357@reddit
It’s almost like Hamas doesn’t want peace and doesn’t care about what is best for the Palestinian people. Shocking.
Waffles86@reddit
It’s almost like Palestinians have a right to bear arms,
860v2@reddit
Murdering civilians, raping women, blowing up school buses, etc. isn’t “resisting a genocide”. That’s where you’re confused.
Waffles86@reddit
Are the Israelis any better?
860v2@reddit
Objectively speaking, yes.
Waffles86@reddit
Nah
860v2@reddit
The fact that only one is a designated terrorist organization says otherwise.
Waffles86@reddit
Yeah they should both be
Zipz@reddit
Lol imagine thinking hamas is against genocide
When they’ve come out multiple times and said a dead Palestinian helps the cause more than an alive one
Waffles86@reddit
Well I’m sure that basic human morality is against a genocide. I think it’s only fair that if we take palestenians weapons away, we do the same with Israel. Israel has killed more people in a genocide. They are too untrustworthy with weapons americans pay for.
Zipz@reddit
Well Hamas isn’t
You might have missed the point that hamas wants Palestinians dead it helps their cause.
Waffles86@reddit
At least Hamas is fighting for a Palestinian state, whereas Israel is fighting for the eradication of Palestinians
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
And again, typical US citizen forgets that there were hundreds to thousands of rockets flying towarda Israel a few years ago.
That wasn't a resistance, it is an act of war.
And an attempt to survive said war.
Israel's not perfect, neither would I accept their methods. But it did what it had to do.
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
When did they say that?
Zipz@reddit
Wild
It’s crazy I’m getting downvoted for calling out hamas
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-chiefs-brutal-calculation-civilian-bloodshed-will-help-hamas-626720e7?mod=middle-east_news_article_pos3
Just goes to show you guys don’t care about Palestinians defending this shit
MeEyeSlashU@reddit
Lemme get your login real quick.
Zipz@reddit
Lol
How funny you ran away
Zipz@reddit
I have two more
Keep up
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
Paywall, and that’s only one example, you said multiple times?
Zipz@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas
“For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and all the people living on this land excel. The elderly excel at it, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have created a human shield of women, children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, to oppose the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they are saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death just as you desire life.”
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
Literally none of the sources that you provided prove what you said they proved. Because if you want to talk about the use of human shields, I'm more than happy to decry the placement of things like the Iron Dome or Mossad headquarters in population centers like Tel Aviv. What you said is:
>When they’ve come out multiple times and said a dead Palestinian helps the cause more than an alive one
Zipz@reddit
Perfect thank you for proving my point
Nothing is enough
Always the goalpost moves
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
You're just saying things. You literally stated a first thing and then never demonstrated it. The whole racist concept of human shields is entirely different from what you said, which is lying that Hamas has explicitly stated something which they haven't.
Zipz@reddit
I did 3 times you ignore each one because you are hamas support not a supporter of Palestinians
Shameful
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
lol you literally did not
Zipz@reddit
Yes I did
You just want to play games and say it’s not the same exact wording so it doesn’t count
Again stop simping for Hamas
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
Those really are very different things and I’m sure you know that.
Zipz@reddit
They aren’t and I know you know that
Why are you defending Hamas so much ?
Do you think they are freedom fighters ?
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
Now who’s moving goalposts lol. You cannot back up your initial claim and you should re edit to make it clear you mean three disparate quotes about human shields across two decades.
Zipz@reddit
Damn now your trying to gaslight me
Lmfaoooooo
Brother all 3 are the same concept
You’re just mad that the terrorist you simp for got exposed
You just keep making a fool of yourself and I just keep laughing at you
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
This is going nowhere. You should really retract your fallacious statement.
Zipz@reddit
Oh no it definitely went somewhere
It made you look like a terrorist supporting fool
OnlyRadioheadLyrics@reddit
I’m gonna mute the conversation now. Best of luck with failing public opinion.
Zipz@reddit
Lol public opinion is pretty clear here
You look like a hamas supporter that got embarrassed
themightycatp00@reddit
In the same interview he also said hamas only hopes for a very limited ceasefire that would last anywhere between a minimum of 3 years to a maximum of 5 years
Between that and talks of refusing to disarm it's pretty clear what their plans are
stprnn@reddit
Can you blame them? Israel has violated the cease fire how many times already?
themightycatp00@reddit
How did Israel violate the ceasefire?
stprnn@reddit
They killed 7 children just today...
themightycatp00@reddit
Weren't they past the yellow line? Why do you think borders exist? You can't just cross them
pasher5620@reddit
Ah yes, literal children crossed an imaginary line because they want to go look through the rubble of their homes for their murdered family members. Israel was perfectly in-line to shoot them with a tank and machine guns. /s
Genuinely, do you actually think about what you are writing? Do you not understand how ridiculous you sound when you defend grown adults slaughtering actual children?
themightycatp00@reddit
I think that none of the things you wrote constitution and agreement violation on Israel's part
And that if the Palestinians want to expedite Israeli withdrawal from gaza they should keep their end and release all the hostages
pasher5620@reddit
Shocker. An Israeli supporter justifying the IDF gunning down children.
themightycatp00@reddit
If you don't understand how agreements, legally binding contracts, borders, and how the real world works It's no one's fault but your own
Get off reddit and touch some grass
pasher5620@reddit
They’re children. You are actively justifying murdering children whose only “crime” was crossing an imaginary line so they could go back home after years of war and displacement.
themightycatp00@reddit
17 years are children and they can drive cars
Children aren't these dumb zombie like creatures who mindlessly wonder the earth, you learn from a pretty young age to look at something and think "that's dangerous I shouldn't do that"
UInferno-@reddit
And yet Israeli's are if they're so itchy to shoot children because they cross an imaginary line without second thought?
themightycatp00@reddit
How is this an "and yet"? What's the contrast you're pointing out?
We're in agreement the dangerous area is dangerous, so dangerous that even a child should know to stay away from it
stprnn@reddit
Very dangerous area..because of the IDF. Did Hamas kill any children lately?
scorpions411@reddit
Not even a smart bot. Pfff...
stprnn@reddit
They were in a car somebody else was driving you actual psychopath
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Shocker. A clueless terrorist supporter faced with an solid argument and can't really respond so they resort to this braindead tiktok garbage. No wonder no one takes y'all seriously 🤦
pasher5620@reddit
Brother, you are out of your mind if you think a truce signed under duress is in any way a good defense for shooting children trying to return to their bombed out homes.
themightycatp00@reddit
What duress? The Palestinians who signed the contract were hundreds of kilometers from gaza and the Palestinians who negotiated the terms were even further and some of them haven't set foot in gaza for years before the war even started
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
More brain rot. What's not a good defense is crossing an agreed upon yellow line and then crying when you get shot. I'd say you're out of your mind but it doesn't sound like you have one to begin with, just like the morons hanging around the yellow line for no reason
HansBrickface@reddit
Is this yellow line in the room with us now?
Jfc, just listen to yourself.
themightycatp00@reddit
No the yellow line is in gaza
fuckmaxm@reddit
Back to r/worldnews with you
Ala117@reddit
your heroes' child killing gallery?
bigbadaboomx@reddit
You are defending killing children because of an imaginary line invented by colonizers
stprnn@reddit
XD least insane zionist
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Ya, who crossed the yellow line. So where's the breach again?
To clarify, Hamas is a known terror organisation that has no problem sending in plain clothed people of any age to do their bidding. IDF is gonna take zero risk with any of this, hence the yellow line. So where the breach?
Ala117@reddit
nice child murder defence there German.
FlagerantFragerant@reddit
Says the genital mutilating African that's chops their own civilians' hands off for trying to vote. Run along
travistravis@reddit
They've refused to allow the mandated number of aid trucks through, for one
themightycatp00@reddit
Because hamas violated the agreement first by not releasing all the hostages and by handing over random corpses.
meaning the agreement is null and that any aid Israel is letting through is a good faith attempt to return to the agreement
DalmationStallion@reddit
You mean the corpses Israel hired under hundreds of tons of rubble. Pray-tell how they were meant to hand them over immediately.
Also explain the dozens of mutilated and tortured bodies of Palestinians that Israel dumped out as part of their hostage exchange.
Imagine if Hamas had returned corpses that were bound, blindfolded, garrotted, burned, mutilated and clearly tortured to death.
themightycatp00@reddit
It's not my responsibility to figure it out, hamas signed the agreement and therefore took on the responsibility to find a way to dig out the bodies
Not only that, they said they were ready to hand over two thirds of the bodies days after they signed the agreement, they had the opportunity to say they need more time and chose not to use it.
And once they said they need heavy machinery to extract bodies their request was granted within hours, and all the information they need to find the bodies was given to them too they have no excuses!
I don't need to imagine, that already happened with the bibas family
Sloppykrab@reddit
Bunch of greedy pussies.
Ala117@reddit
the likud are indeed.
the1newman2@reddit
A Hamas supporter who keeps their comments hidden. Shocker.
Ala117@reddit
A likud swallower mad he can't stalk someone he disagrees with, shocker.
Rindan@reddit
Hamas and Likud can both suck.
Ala117@reddit
Then why is likud still being rewarded?
HopelessExistentials@reddit
Yet you consistently only bitch about one, how odd
Spunk-Nugget@reddit
why in the ever loving fuck would they live in gaza when israel would just send a missile through their wall when they sleep? or just flatten their neighbourhood in one night?
the senior political wing and the lead negotiators OBVIOUSLY arent going to live in the occupied territory where israel have carte blanche to commit as much atrocity as they like with zero repercussions. lest we forget they DID try to murder the hamas political negotiators in doha, they did airstrike an iranian consulate in syria and they did murder iranian negotiators in tehran.
acting like hamas’ senior politicians should live in gaza and fight, which you would then denigrate them for not actually being the political, non-militant wing of hamas that they actually are.
HockeyHocki@reddit
anime_titties now standing shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Iran & Malaysia as one of the few remaining places you will still hear anyone defend Hamas right to remain an armed force.
The reality is many on this sub share the exact same mentality as the filth they apologise for, ceasefire is bad for business.
Take a long look in the mirror the next time you think about claiming you're on the right side of history
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
Nah, pretty sure a good portion of the world does not trust the UN or US.
If anything, a majority would prefer Israel-Palestine should just fight it out themselves and leave us alone.
860v2@reddit
If Hamas agrees to disarm then who else is going to conduct mass extrajudicial executions in the middle of cheering crowds?
This is an important question that must be answered!
AutoModerator@reddit
The link you have provided contains keywords for topics associated with an active conflict, and has automatically been flaired accordingly. If the flair was not updated, the link submitter MUST do so. Due to submissions regarding active conflicts generating more contrasting discussion, comments will only be available to users who have set a subreddit user flair, and must strictly comply with subreddit rules. Posters who change the assigned post flair without permission will be temporarily banned. Commenters who violate Reddiquette and civility rules will be summarily banned.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.