Portugal set for burka ban after MPs back right-wing party's plan
Posted by thebelsnickle1991@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 122 comments
Posted by thebelsnickle1991@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 122 comments
PlusAd4034@reddit
Literally never seen anybody wearing a burka in pt. Good job. 2 whole people in the entire country can’t wear what they want now. Really fixing the economy.
djseshlad@reddit
You think that’s entirely their choice and there’s zero oppression involved?
PlusAd4034@reddit
Maybe. Maybe their husband would get mad if they don’t conform to the religious values. Oh no. This affects about 2 people in the country, and even then, that’s not an issue for the state. Maybe it’s not actually a widespread problem and it’s manufactured outrage to distract from actual widespread problems that impact the ~10 million people living in Portugal, instead of the two people that have to deal with an asshole husband (who will still be an asshole if you ban Burkas)z
djseshlad@reddit
Where are you getting 2 from 😂
PlusAd4034@reddit
Because I live in the largest city in the country and have literally never seen anybody wearing a Burka. Not that common then is it.
Unable_Research_2025@reddit
Then why all the outrage?
PlusAd4034@reddit
Because this whole culture war is manufactured narrative, and i’m pointing out that it’s a fake issue meant to distract from anything real.
Jazzlike_Method_7642@reddit
One of the few things I find myself in agreement with these right wing lunatics. Immigrants must integrate into society, that's the only way to increase exposure to different cultures and successful assimilation.
Radiant-Fly9738@reddit
That's not integration, that's assimilation.
It's ironic you're talking about exposure to different cultures while promoting forcing monoculture.
Toomanyeastereggs@reddit
The real irony is that it’s actually yourself that is supporting an absolutely extreme religious viewpoint and doctrine that forces women to wear these. Even in the Muslim world these people are looked down upon as extremist wackjobs. This is though “different culture” in the same way as say, apartheid was.
So I guess the logical conclusion is that you support white South Africans immigrating and bringing apartheid with them as their “culture”? Or is that the “wrong” culture to you? In which case there are “right” and “wrong” cultures and oops, the fallacy of your argument just took flight and shat on your head.
Thangoman@reddit
Apartheid is a political structure that marginalizes and disempowers non whites
Comparing it to a piece of clothing is absurd
Dragoncat_3_4@reddit
The type of Islam that demands women wear burkas is a religious structure that marginalizes and disempowers women. (More so that most other religions in any case.)
Thangoman@reddit
These people dont have the support of the state to marginalize women, and should be persecuted if they violently force women to do stuff they dont want to. That requires no burqa ban, you can just use tools they have available now and increase funding in agencies to reduce domestic violence. Banning the Burqas doesnt fix any of that.
Meanwhile, Apartheid cdoesnt exist without the support of the state
Dragoncat_3_4@reddit
Oh, so what, if they do it "non-violently" it's ok then? via threats of excommunication, peer pressure, and calling said women whores, unmarriageable, shameful to their family and the like?
Get real dude, your idealistic views are very far from actual reality.
Lizardledgend@reddit
How is any of that solved by a burqa ban?
Dragoncat_3_4@reddit
For one, they have the "excuse" not to wear one. Less Ikely to be attributed to the moral qualities of the woman when the state demands it.
Jukajobs@reddit
My concern is always that laws like that could end up making the families of women who wear burqas decide that those women shouldn't leave the house at all instead of leaving the house without one, considering that, a lot of the time, those families already have a lot of power over those women's lives. To be clear, I'm not disagreeing that burqas are awful, they really are, and wearing them is not usually a choice made freely, but this kind of law has to be considered carefully if the intent behind it really is to do something positive for those women (and, I have to say, I'm a bit skeptical that that's the real intent in the first place, considering that, in my experience, right-wing parties don't usually care about women's well-being a whole lot, or are pretty selective about it). Still, I really hope the effects of such a ban, if it happens, are what you described, since that's also a real possibility.
Toomanyeastereggs@reddit
There is no logic in what you are saying. It’s like saying “don’t dress immodestly lest you get raped” - your attitude is actually rewarding the abuser!
You think you are making a point based on reason, but it is so deeply, deeply flawed that you are now arguing for the abusers!
Do better!
Jukajobs@reddit
What I defend is that laws like that have to be considered carefully and, if implemented, involve further measures to deal with the consequences. It's like how you have to behave carefully when trying to get somebody out of an abusive relationship. They're in a vulnerable situation, under the control of another person who has a lot of power over them, but who they often feel attached to, and it's possible for people who are trying to help to make things worse accidentally because the victim is very likely to go back to their abuser if you just take them out of that situation without planning ahead and without offering them real support outside of that abusive relationship. Ideally, yes, we should just be able to ban those terribly misogynistic practices and get those women out of there immediately, I'd really love to see that happen. But I honestly worry about the possibility of that making things worse after a while, since laws like that are rarely implemented in combination with support networks to help women out of those situations and support them once they're out, which is what would most likely be necessary, and a lot of those women would otherwise just go back to the abusive environment they're in now (for a myriad of complicated psychological and social reasons) and further isolate from the rest of the world, which is worse for them in the long run. That is not remotely comparable to saying "don't dress immodestly lest you get raped", and I honestly have no idea how you even got to that comparison from what I said. What I care about is the end result of materially improving those women's lives, and in a long-lasting way. Do I know that a ban like the one discussed in this post wouldn't help? No, I don't, maybe it would work. Like I said, I really hope that it does help. If it does, I will take back my words and start supporting those bans fully, I swear. But I don't know for sure that bans do help, and I don't think anyone does, which is why I'm hesitant to fully put my support behind them in every single case and why I have mixed thoughts and feelings about them and feel concerned, which is what I tried to express in my original comment. Those issues need to be thought about carefully, planned ahead further and and involve further ways to support those women through those changes, which I doubt is what's going on in this specific case, which is why I am so concerned in the first place! If it had all those measures in place, I'd probably support it. And the concern I talked about in my original comment is genuine, I seriously worry about those women. A big part of my mind is always screaming "make that shit illegal! Get those women out of there!", because it's horrifying to see that kind of dehumanization be done to them, and I honestly don't think it should be legal because it's simply unacceptable in any society. But, ultimately, the real improvement of those women's lives in the long run is what has to be centered, rather than what I think about the existence and usage of burqas in general (which is that that shouldn't exist). And the possibility of those women being removed from society further would not be good in that regard and is concerning, so it has to be considered to be avoided in the first place, which does not seem to be what is happening here.
Lizardledgend@reddit
Or it makes someone who already might feel powerless feel even less in control of her life
Vladxxl@reddit
Because nothing embodys power then having to cover every single part of your body for religious reasons.
Thangoman@reddit
We are speaking about a few dozen women (In Portugal), if anything a few of them being pushed out of an abusive group by refusing to wear Burkas would be better for them than not even be allowrd to wear Burkas, right?
And you can just do program to support these women instead of a global ban
BendicantMias@reddit
Stop pretending you've done a survey to show these women want this. You didn't ask them, you're DECIDING FOR them. Which is, ironically, a very patriarchal thing to do.
And next you'll tell me they're brainwashed, but of course you aren't. How convenient.
Downt0wnpaper@reddit
Islamism is a cancer on human civilization, and I say this as a former Muslim. If there were truly an Allah, the first people to go to Jahannam/Hell would be the Islamists who promoted the headscarf.
Levitz@reddit
If the entirety of the culture is based on the burka, that's not a culture that deserves to exist in the western world, if it's not, then it's not forcing a monoculture.
Cultural exchanges can be good, this doesn't mean every cultural aspect is inherently worth of respect. If opposing brutal oppression of women is "forcing monoculture" then I want everybody to force a monoculture.
Radiant-Fly9738@reddit
Every country has their right to make their country in their own image they desire. I'm fine with that, but let's not pretend such countries are open minded, inclusive and multicultural. European countries are what they have been for centuries, despite their virtue signaling. They just want cheap neoslaves.
rainbowcarpincho@reddit
Research shows hostile shit like this just entrenches cultural divides. But conservatives never care about outcomes, only moralizing.
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
This. Its not just conservatives either I have met plenty of clueless people on the left who never bother to find out at a grassroots level what the harmful results are of these bans.
InfernalBiryani@reddit
I wonder if you’d say the same thing if they banned wearing crosses, nun’s clothing, monk robes, yamakas, etc. If you ban one religion’s practices, who’s to say they won’t come after your freedoms next?
Jazzlike_Method_7642@reddit
Look, ironically it's about choice. Nuns and monks usually have a choice about wearing these things. Muslim women, at least the younger and newer generations, and especially muslim women here in the west usually do not have a choice (except possibly a small subset that do do it voluntarily).
Chirotera@reddit
Maybe stop being a racist piece of shit? That'd help a lot of immigrants out.
Phoenixmaster1571@reddit
Integrating into society means getting a job and paying taxes, not following a dress code.
Jazzlike_Method_7642@reddit
So a murderer or a rapist can be a part of society as long as they pay taxes?
Ironically, you have a problem with legislation because it "enforces" a dress code, but not with people in society doing the exact same thing on women and children.
Phoenixmaster1571@reddit
I don't support Sharia law, either. It's up to the individual. I am confused, are you equating a dress code with rape? I'm not sure how banning burkas will solve that problem. Obviously, the criminal justice system still applies to immigrants.
LtSoba@reddit
Because Robbing people’s freedoms is a perfect way to get immigrants to integrate into a society
Jazzlike_Method_7642@reddit
"Robbing people's freedoms" is exactly what a lot of Muslim women go through anyway. Have you ever talked to a second/third gen muslim woman?
LtSoba@reddit
Ur generalising an entire multicultural group Burqa are a cultural item of clothing not religious. And I don’t think that allowing a government control over clothing is a safe thing
djseshlad@reddit
Covering every inch of a woman’s body? Oh it’s cultural so it’s okay. Like bad traditions have never existed.
BendicantMias@reddit
You're not 'exposing yourself to different cultures', you're erasing those cultures and then pretending you're still multicultural simply cos people came from across the world - to all be the same person.
There's no such thing as 'diversity' without diversity of thought. A different color of skin doesn't mean anything if they all have similar worldviews, beliefs, values, perspectives and way of life.
Which is FINE by me frankly, so long as you OWN it. End the hypocrisy. You don't want to be diverse, then fine don't be diverse. But then stop PRETENDING that you are. Just openly admit it.
The problem is that the west wants it both ways. As usual.
Jazzlike_Method_7642@reddit
I see the point you're making, but would that also extend to certain thoughts like if some immigrants have negative perceptions of the lgbtq community, or if they bring their patriarchal or even casteist sentiments, must they be tolerated?
Surely, people can be encouraged to hold on to their cultures as long as it is not detrimental to society as a whole. Subjugating women into covering up is rooted in patriarchal control of women, and thus there isn't any problem with legislation banning it.
BendicantMias@reddit
Have you asked them if they feel that way? Or are you deciding FOR them? Or do you think they're too 'brainwashed' to decide, but you conveniently aren't?
Jazzlike_Method_7642@reddit
Yes. I'm basing it on my own personal experiences with muslim women in my friend group. They leave and return to their house in burkas, but once they're in the comfort of our houses, or a bit further from theirs, they remove it. These are the women I know, but surely they're not then only ones.
The people who choose to don it willingly are a lot smaller, but that's just my opinion, and isn't currently backed by any existing data.
celloh234@reddit
Are you also a woman
Jazzlike_Method_7642@reddit
Nope. Just have women in my life who I talk to.
Lizardledgend@reddit
Yes? You want to arrest people for thought crimes? Obviously if they in any way express that in a way that harms others that's extremely different. But you can't just go around arresting people for the sentinents they hold???
Upbeat_Commission124@reddit
Funny how an indian is talking about integration
BendicantMias@reddit
Tbf India has done a far better job of that than any western country, better than most other countries in fact. India has more diversity in it than all of Europe, yet look at how many countries Europe is versus India. Yugoslavia had ten times less diversity than India, and still fell apart.
Jazzlike_Method_7642@reddit
Ah, I was expecting at least one comment about my identity rather than my point, and you did not disappoint.
Upbeat_Commission124@reddit
Maybe don’t use a flair and dish it out if you can’t take your own stereotypes?
Jazzlike_Method_7642@reddit
Sorry, what exactly did I "dish out"? Or stereotype?
Nikadaemus@reddit
You realize it's right-wing to impose crap like burkas. Versus being a choice (left-wing)
You fktards who consider the balancing half of the spectrum as 'lunatics' are the actual lunatics
ale_93113@reddit
These policies affect very very few people, and very few people who are very visible and who have very illiberal ideologies, and yet, this extremely narrow law (when it passed in switzerland they said it was a law with names and surnames because of how few women used it) is performative enough for the far right to claim a victory without endangering the liberal freedoms, unlke some of their policies such as mass deportations
BendicantMias@reddit
I guess everywhere should legalize incest then, since it too would affect very very few people. Hell that'd actually be an INCREASE in rights!
Alternately we should re-criminalize trans people, since legalizing it helps very very few people but pisses off a lot of people.
Better yet, we should build a utopia based on the merciless torment and agony of an innocent young child - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Omelas
Utilitarianism is just, after all.
oceansofpiss@reddit
Comparing a piece of clothing to incest is fucked. Come on man
BendicantMias@reddit
By that logic outlawing a piece of clothing is also fucked. It's just a piece of clothing to you after all...
AlashMarch@reddit
No, since incest has very complicated power dynamics that make it difficult to differentiate consent from having been groomed. No such moral issues exist in regards to a burka ban.
Levitz@reddit
"Very complicated power dynamics that make it difficult to differentiate consent from having been groomed." is basically the entire goddamned reason anyone wears a burka.
AlashMarch@reddit
I do agree, the burka represents a barbaric religious practice that should be banned. The images from Afghanistan tell me it is clearly meant for men to dominate women, horrid. There is no way that women can dominate men in Islam. By contrast, the coercive relation can go both ways with incest. Given this difference it is clear the two are not the same like Bangladeshi OP implied.
NoHandBananaNo@reddit
In reality tho ehat we have actually found is if you ban burka all that happens is that the women whose husbands dont let them go out without wearing one are no longer allowed to go out at all.
They lose access to community education and resources that in some cases would have allowed them to escape barbaric oppression.
BendicantMias@reddit
You're making the ironically patriarchal choice of deciding FOR WOMEN what they can wear, based on your own presumptions, without asking them what they want. Presumably cos you imagine they're 'brainwashed', while conveniently excluding yourself from that possibility.
Your choice of language (aka 'barbaric' 'horrid') also makes it very clear what's really motivating this position of yours. Much like with incest, it has little to do with coolly reasoned philosophical opposition, but a very emotional distaste for the Other. You aren't doing this out of principle, you're doing it cos you find the practice icky i.e. 'horrid'. All the reasoning comes after the fact.
AlashMarch@reddit
It's easy for one to dismiss their opponents arguments by presuming the opponent argues in bad faith. I ask you show the same respect on my good faith as I have shown to you.
BendicantMias@reddit
I already answered your 'argument' in the first paragraph by pointing out how presumptuous it is, which is the crux of the flaw in all your arguments - you think you know better than the actual people involved.
Whether it's deciding FOR WOMEN what they can wear on the basis of your beliefs, not theirs, to deciding FOR PARTNERS which relationships are okay on the basis of your perspective, not theirs.
You haven't asked these women if they all want this, and likely hypothesize that they couldn't answer (the way you want them to answer anyway) cos of either current fear, or from being 'brainwashed' by Islam (which of course your own beliefs and values are totally objective and independent ... yep).
So of course you, as the 'enlightened westerner', have taken it upon yourself to decide FOR THEM since only you know best, not them. It's plain arrogance.
Chirotera@reddit
You're not a good person. It's very sad that people like you exist.
Googgodno@reddit
All religious people are groomed from very young age by their parents and society. If a large sample of kids were placed in a complete atheist society that never knew god, only very few will emerge as religious.
Publius82@reddit
This. No one who was raised agnostic becomes religious as an adult, without some form of serious mental disorder.
BendicantMias@reddit
1) You're wrong, as the other guy pointed out, the same argument can be made about the burka. And much else besides.
2) Consensual incest between siblings, especially as adults. Checkmate. Now what's your excuse? Hell, the power dynamic argument is itself often a copout as the power dynamics play out in lots of relationship types, often involving even more overt power differences, that aren't illegal.
This is just yet more post-facto bs invented to explain it away, much like the other birth defects argument that reeks of eugenics, that has little to do with why incest is actually illegal - which is simply that people find it icky. It's illegal in all cases for very similar reasons to why homosexuality used to be illegal.
AlashMarch@reddit
This "checkmate" does not consider the power imbalance between siblings, even as adults? How do I know that the older sibling did manipulate the younger sibling, intentionally or unintentionally? There are a few cases where I cannot see any power imbalance issues but many more where I do. Two of your three examples deal with adult-adult relations that did not begin in youth. How do you not see the difference between this and child-child relations that later evolve into adult-adult?
BendicantMias@reddit
Ah yes, let's just posit major hypothetical power imbalances between siblings while downplaying very much official power imbalances inherent in other relationships. You're not even trying to hide your motivated reasoning here.
Did you know anytime commits suicide, it could hypothetically be cos someone encouraged them to it, even their intimate partner? Let's just ban every relationship cos of possible dangers. Let's ban not just guns, but knives too. And so on. Family is NOT the only source of power in the world, never has been, and is often not even the most powerful force either. You just don't care about those other power imbalances cos you don't find them icky.
You're just inventing excuses here bro. Motivated reasoning isn't a made up term - you can look it up. You think there was undue influence? PROVE IT! Stop using hypotheticals to post-facto justify what you WANT to believe.
And btw, while you're at it, I expect you to impeach the current French president on account of him being incapable due to being groomed. But wait, he's the President! His 'predator' wife is nothing relative to him. He literally shapes the law that she could be charged under! So which way does the power imbalance flow?! Oh my, well that's easy to answer - which way do you WANT to IMAGINE it flows? So much easier when thinking like that eh.
ale_93113@reddit
This is actually a very good argument, however I think that in some instances, the other alternative to this kind of utilitarianism is to suspend democracy and install a technocracy
Which, for the record, I am completely in favor of, "the people" shouldn't decide if someone has or not rights, even if the majority agrees, but I was assuming we weren't doing the "revolution against democracy" thing, otherwise of course a good technocratic system is better than any democracy
Lizardledgend@reddit
Word 2/4 is the catch there lad, who decides what "good" means, you?
Aggravating-Fee1934@reddit
"You can tell we're taking Islamic extremism seriously because we fucked with these three people's clothes"
Googgodno@reddit
It is a form of broken window theory of crime.
Publius82@reddit
Damn trigger warning (literally)
SludgeFilter@reddit
Not at all this is a change in direction you know the slippery slope. You allow this and soon you will have laws of repatriation deportation of all migrants. Depending on which side you on this is either terrifying or fantastic news.
onenitemareatatime@reddit
Could you not use the same logic to not enact trans legislation? Ie- these are very few people so why bother?
Thangoman@reddit
Yet another infringement of free speech who will get near universal backing for "hurting the right people". I agree that effprts should be taken to deal with domestic abuse among muslims, but this isnt the way
Im honestly not sure what awaits us at the other end of the decade if the far right is advancing so insanely fasr
Wooper736@reddit
I mean the only ones that push for the burqa are the most radical types of Islam like the ones practiced by the Taliban and ISIS, most moderate sects only use the hijab that leaves the women's face open. So considering how it's used to violate women's rights, there's a legitimate case for banning the burqa
Thangoman@reddit
Are we going to ban Scientology or any shitty cult like that one then? Because as far as I can see while the burqa is mostly used by the more backwards branch of islam theres no reason to expect it to be dangerous
Are we banning belts because they can be used for abusing children?
T_______T@reddit
Is there a specific practice of Scientology you want to ban?
Thangoman@reddit
What about banning anything associated with the leadership?
It would be like banning a mosque who answers to the Saudis for the Saudis killing disidents abroad
T_______T@reddit
I am all for investigations into wrong doings by any group. But this doesn't sound like there's a specific practice of Scientology you want banned
Thangoman@reddit
The problem isnt the practices themselves, but the people that use them. Like, one if their things is getting into a multi year long "soul search" isolation. Which can be fine if done in a not abusive way. The problem is that this is both a scam and abusive
If the same is proven to be true abou
T_______T@reddit
I find the burqas problematic for the reasons, though. There issues of picking up your kids in a burqas -- many schools won't allow this because need to verify identity. For the same reason I don't want people masked all day everywhere -- anonymity, false identity, unable to identify perpetrators, is the same reason I'm against the burqa.
I would also be against isolation over a certain amount of time because of the evidence of the psychological damage they cause. These are things that can be regulated.
Thangoman@reddit
And Im fine with regulation, just not the banning of these things outright
Also, the ammount of times you had women wearing Burkas committing crimes is absurdly low
T_______T@reddit
I don't believe the women who wear burqas would commit crimes. Like it's possible but improbable. I am actually more afraid of someone committing crime against them by impersonating then by wearing a burqa. E.g. kidnapping their kid.
Thangoman@reddit
I cant say that I dont see this, but this feels like ut would be much harder to pull off than the old "faking to be other guy and calling with a phone trick" without it being much more effective
T_______T@reddit
Yeah like my personal concerns don't necessarily amount to necessitating laws being passed. This law is knee-jerky virtual signalling by the right because it doesn't have large impact, but it does allow a handful of women to blame the country for disobeying these cultural rules. And people in cults or high demand religions need a third party bad guy to point to to regain autonomy.
Of course, this may result in those women leaving the home less.
YourFuture2000@reddit
In this case we should ban any form of hierarchical authority, especially the one which the top has the political and violence monopoly, such as the nation states.
And I am not being cynic. I agree with you. I only disagree of banning what is not my culture and keep what is. I think all should be banned on the same premise.
Thangoman@reddit
Any leaderahip that provens to be damaging should be sacked, yes.
Im not muslim, Im atheist and descendant of catholics and jews.
YourFuture2000@reddit
I say any leadership that has the power of decisions imposing from top to down in a hierarchy is damaging.
No body is free in a power pyramid.
Dragoncat_3_4@reddit
Fun fact. Multiple EU countries either do not recognize Scientology as a a religion, or straight up classify it a dangerous cult. It's operations are also restricted in a few of those countries. It has been classified as a cult in the country you've flaired as.
Thangoman@reddit
Yeah andI think scientology is worse than Burqas existing because it answers to a putrid abusive leadership
Im totally fine with banning institutions that ansser to abusive groups, just not banning the practices themselves
BendicantMias@reddit
Stop pretending you've done a survey to show all these women want this. You didn't ask them, you're DECIDING FOR them. Which is, ironically, a very patriarchal thing to do.
And next you'll tell me they're brainwashed, but of course you aren't. How convenient.
Wooper736@reddit
When the fuck did i say anything about the women wanting it? Did you copy and paste a comment of yours cause you didn't bother to write a new one?
I am just explaining the logic behind the ban and why it can be seen as valid.
Radiant-Fly9738@reddit
and if a single working woman living independently wants to wear it? that's not violating her rights?
YourFuture2000@reddit
I agree with you, but only if said single woman are educated and integrated, but also protected enough, to know that she has no obligation to wear it no matter what any religion say and what her family say. Otherwise she is not practicing freedom.
And as such I want have the same freedom to wear flip-flop and scream mask at work and any public and formal events.
LonelyStranger8467@reddit
Islam does not require women to cover their face.
The burqa/niqab is a cultural thing that is entrenched in specific repressive regions.
Thangoman@reddit
If they see it as part of their religion its a religious issue
And being a "cultural thing" doesnt make it any better to ban it
YourFuture2000@reddit
Restricting people freedom is always a political issue, no matter what kind of institution have the political influence.
trump-a-phone@reddit
It is part of my religion that burkas be banned. Please respect my religion bigot
Lizardledgend@reddit
You really don't get that the problem people have is forcing someone to do something because you find it distateful, huh?
Thangoman@reddit
I also think that people should be heavily punished if they try to forcw e their views into others. That doesnt mean we need to do preemptive bans targetting matginalized groups like muslims
Your "counterargument" is jusr stupid
Chenipan@reddit
Turns out locals want people to integrate ?
Thangoman@reddit
Turns out I think decent human beings should respect each other´s choices
Chenipan@reddit
Turns out people that live in a democracy are free to vote for choices that shape the society they live in.
YourFuture2000@reddit
If that was the case then we would not have representative democracy.
Then we don't live in democracy because most of political decisions are not made by people and are opposed to how of the choices people have on how to shape the society they wanted to live.
As far as I am aware, people in Portugal were not asked about their choices regarding allowing or banning burqa. It was the decision of a party in power, not of the society.
Thangoman@reddit
I guess it would be fine if for some reason the people passed laws forcing every woman to dress with a Burqa?
Guess Afghanistan is merely doing what the people want
soggycow2790@reddit
Who voted for the Taliban?
Thangoman@reddit
The people voted by dropping their weapons when the US left
The support for the Taliban was much greater than the support for their government
soggycow2790@reddit
That's not how democracy or democratic processes work bud.
Thangoman@reddit
Im not saying its a democracy, Im saying that since the people like that change according to his logic its alright
soggycow2790@reddit
I don't think you understand the difference between unelected Islamists implementing their blatantly undemocratic agenda in the country they took over (by force) and a democratic government voted in by the will of the people. It's not even remotely comparable logic lol
Also, how do you know Afghans like the changes the Taliban are implementing?
Thangoman@reddit
Because they didnt resist goddamnit. The Taliban is inherently democratic, it also was banned by the US so to say that they dont represent hte will of the people like these people do is silly
It was completely transparent how much more support the Taliban held than expected with the whole damn campaign that lasted a few months.
soggycow2790@reddit
"Because they didn't resist" does not give the Taliban license to take over the country and rule it as an Islamic state.
The very ideological agenda of the Taliban is incompatible with democratic principles. The idea of "will of the people" is against what they stand for.
Thangoman@reddit
Thats why I said that them having public support or not is irrelevant. The actions are bad in either case
Thats nonsense, plenty of parties or movements with anti democratic values have thrived in democratic systems
soggycow2790@reddit
No, the actions of the Taliban are not remotely comparable to banning a discriminatory piece of Islamist clothing lol
I thought you were arguing that they had public support.
Thangoman@reddit
They have public sypport, that doesnt justify what they do. I think the same about discriminating mualims with laws like these even if incomparable in terms of scale
I dont like the practices around the Burqa, and I bet a few muslims force their women to wear it in Europe in abusive fashion. I also believe in the presumption of innocence and in letting each other be
Chenipan@reddit
You're not too good at analogies are you ?
There isn't much democracy in Afghanistan :)
Thangoman@reddit
I mean, im just saying that your argument is completely shit. Stuff doesnt become good or acceptable because its popular and follows the institutions that they have. Thats why I mentioned Hitler but decided to go with something a bit more relevant
The people support the Taliban over there, its the only reason they took over again
Thangoman@reddit
Yeah, and Hitler got into power democratically, guess that makes it all okay
YourFuture2000@reddit
How wearing a burqa is an impediment to integration? Except if society is too racist to integrate any kind of diversity. (give jobs and friendship, and any kind of economic and social oportunity).
BendicantMias@reddit
That's fine, so long as you OWN it. End the hypocrisy. You don't want to be diverse, then fine don't be diverse. But then stop PRETENDING that you are. Just openly admit it.
The problem is that the west wants it both ways. As usual.