Any legal problems with this setup? Also looking for opinions.
Posted by Trainmaster111@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 21 comments
Posted by Trainmaster111@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 21 comments
XxcOoPeR93xX@reddit
I've been thinking about doing something similar with an FRT. As long as you don't have a 90° vertical grip and the brace portion is an actual pistol brace not a stock you should be good.
marvinfuture@reddit
Please stop spreading misinformation. 90° exists no where in any government documentation or legislation. There are many examples of off-90° vertical foregrips in the market and they are designated and sold as VFG.
The terminology used is "ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. "
A magazine holder doesn't qualify as a device intended to be held and fired with two hands
And yes the laws are stupid and I don't agree with them, but that's how they are currently written.
Source: https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download
XxcOoPeR93xX@reddit
Angled foregrips were deemed acceptable in 2011 and 2013, even though that would make it no longer "designed to be fired from a single hand". So your single hand idea from a 2006 no longer holds water. Braced pistols with angled foregrips have been deemed fully legal by the ATF well between 2006 and today. Per 2013 the ATF clarifies that a VFG is "oriented at a perpendicular (90-degree) angle to the bore of the weapon". There is heavy dispute over this 90° clarification, and I would advise people to heavily take it with a grain of salt.
Your 2006 letter is completely outdated and firing from one hand is no longer the legal framework of which to base your understanding of a pistol based foregrip. Angled foregrips are ok, vertical foregrips are not. ATF says vertical is 90° to the bore but many don't trust that. The fundamental question lies in what is the threshold to where angled becomes vertical. Something like OP showed would be considered angled and it would also be advertised as a mag holder and not entirely a grip so that would be a consideration as well. In most States this would be completely legal.
Diligent-Parfait-236@reddit
I'm not trolling through their docs to source, but they use the phrase "perpendicular to the barrel" as a horizontal or side canted grip is also a grip. Many people have taken "perpendicular" to be literal 90°.
I disagree with this interpretation, spirit of the law and all that, but it's not unfounded.
Useless_Fox@reddit
Your source is only the ATF saying adding a VFG to a handgun makes it not a handgun anymore. The issue is that they did not define what a VFG is exactly.
That's why people have written to them asking for clarification, and the cloest thing we have to a formal definition is their letters in response. The 89 degree rule comes from an ATF letter in response to someone asking if the Stark SE-5 express grip counts as a vertical, to which they reeponsed:
"Federal law currently does not define "Vertical Fore Grip"; however, ATF has determined that a grip of this type is distinguished by being both forward of the magazine well and oriented at a perpendicular (90-degree) angle to the bore of the weapon."
DaHyuck@reddit
Damn bro, you destroyed that moron spreading misinformation just like he accused you of doing. Great work!
elboyoloco1@reddit
There's a big ol hand stop on the top of that grip.
Comp would still be good.
MostlyOkPotato@reddit
The brace is perfectly legal. The “magazine holder“ is a bit iffy. If you get the wrong ATF agent, they may tell you that it’s a vertical foregrip.
ReverendReed@reddit
I have this set up, and to be honest, it's just mediocre.
The brace isn't comfortable, and if you use the brace incorrectly and check weld it, it just punches you in the face.
If you're looking for a compact 9mm, I'd recommend the Kuna. Using it incorrectly works great.
thezentex@reddit
ATF is illegal and infringement.
I'm not a lawyer...just read an old document
IDoStuff132@reddit
Maybe vertical grip but I’m not a lawyer
XxcOoPeR93xX@reddit
"Magazine holders" especially at an angle are usually okay
Diligent-Parfait-236@reddit
Nobody's been prosecuted for it as far as I know, but I don't know if anyone's been prosecuted for a normal vfg outside of tack on charges either and we know those are super common.
Let's not pretend they're not a grey area because they also have another function.
Lostinspaceballz@reddit
It’s at an angle and you can’t get your thumb around it. Probably ok.
That’s a recovery tactical pistol brace, I have the same one and it’s fully compliant and. It’s pretty nice too.
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit
On its face no. It's a brace, and an angled magazine holder. That said the ATF could change their minds in the future. And this setup looks stupid as fuck anyway. Just get a micro conversion kit or something more substantial and useful.
But always remember, you can beat the rap, not the ride. There's a chance a cop could see this and tag you for it. And you're going to be out several hours of your life while you deal with it.
Depending where you live you may even get charged. You'll likely beat those charges. But you're going to be out time and money. And no you won't win if you sue for a wrongful arrest. Qualified Immunity and Heien v. North Carolina happens.
The police are not required to know the law. They just need to think they do.
armedandnerdy@reddit
Yeah, that’s a fore grip, or at the very least what’s I’d call it because it’s too close for comfort, for me but I’m afraid of prison 🤷♂️
BarryHalls@reddit
I have used one with my 41 a LOT and I like it a lot, but it really needs a cheek riser.
With a can the blowback gasses go RIGHT into my eyes. Been working on overcoming that, but it's involved adding MUCH heavier RSAs and adding weight to the slide. That's with a flow through can. Next I'm designing a 3d printed gas deflector/cheek riser that attaches to the brace.
So your other options are braces that enclose the back of the slide so they deflect gas, but don't use slide mounted optics, and cost 3-5x as much 🤷🏼♂️
Rustyclam@reddit
Love mine. Wish the red dot mount was a lil more stiff i may try to enhance it by using metal rods or something. Other than that this thing is freaking awesome. From NJ btw.
MelTorme01@reddit
My understanding, is as a brace, it is fully legal. I happen to have tried out this setup, it seems really cool in concept, but really terrible in execution. It puts the slide in incredibly close to your eye, I was shooting suppressed, and getting way too much gas to the face, and if you bring the brace in against your shoulder, it flexes the entire frame and throws off your zero, I ended up returning it.
ThatAussieGunGuy@reddit
For lols I want to try this.
umbrellassembly@reddit
Magazine pouches are not grips in intent, first. There are many out there. FAB MG-9 (pictured), Recover Tactical MG9, flux Raiders and other setups have their own.