Hamas’s aim to retain authority in Gaza involves keeping the guns
Posted by BabylonianWeeb@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 293 comments
Posted by BabylonianWeeb@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 293 comments
AbabababababababaIe@reddit
If they didn’t keep the guns Israel would waltz in the next week anyway? If they didn’t keep the guns, would Palestine be independent?
flossdaily@reddit
No. I mean, it couldn't be clearer that Israel has been trying to wash their hands off Gaza for a long time. They tried to give it back to Egypt. They tried to give it to Arafat in exchange for peace. Eventually, in 2005, they pulled out entirely without even getting a promise of peace in return.
They stayed out for 20 years while Hamas sent tens of thousands of rockets at Israel civilians.
It took the atrocities of Hamas's Oct 7 attack (and Hamas's promise to do it again and again and again) as well as the taking if hundreds of hostages, to get Israel to go back in.
They've been clear from day one of the rest that they have no desire to occupy Gaza. It was Trump who proposed taking Gaza. (And one insane Israeli finance minister, who is deeply despised by most Israelis, and who has no power to do so.)
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
While their military kept control of the borders, everything that’s going in or out, and putting a blockade on the territory. Also to quote Sharon, then prime minister, from 2004
flossdaily@reddit
Egypt also blockaded Gaza. That's the key element you're leaving out. And you're leaving it out because it highlights the truth if the matter: any country in the world would blockade a terrorist state in their border, to make sure they couldn't import weapons.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Egypt blockaded Gaza at the insistence of the US and Israel and only because of millions being paid to Egypt..
flossdaily@reddit
Utter nonsense.
Hamas is a direct spin-off of the Muslim Brotherhood, a permanent, internal threat to Egypt's secular government.
Egypt didn't require any cajoling in order to view Hamas as an extremely serious security threat.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Oh, well if you believe that then please tell us why the US had to pay Egypt to deal with a “permanent, internal” threat from external Hamas?
redditing_away@reddit
The US is interested in Egypt and allying with them because of the Suez canal, one of the arteries of global trade, not because of Gaza.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Then why did that payment start only when Egyptian assistance with the Gaza blockade was required?
redditing_away@reddit
The payments started after Israel and Egypt made peace in the early 1980s and Egypt and the US grew closer, about 30 years before the blockage was established. And about 10 years before Hamas was founded.
Suez, not Gaza.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
1978 - a bribe for Egypt to make peace with Israel.
The funding to Egypt went up US$100 Million in 200/72008. Unrelated?? Sure…
redditing_away@reddit
Making peace is now considered bad? Well, ain't that surprising. Nonetheless at least you acknowledge that your initial statement was bullshit, which I commend.
Oh my, what a bonanza! Given that Egypt spent about 3.5 billion USD on its military that year, it sure will have had major repercussions.
Also what exactly are you trying to convey by that source? That Egypt doesn't give much of a shit about Gaza? As if that wasn't true from the start.
flossdaily@reddit
Google "soft power," to understand why the United States government does things like this.
We financially support foreign programs that are in our own best interest, because an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
And ensuring Israel continues to brutalise the Palestinians and can blockade them is part of that “soft power?”
whater39@reddit
You think Egpyt wanted to stop $1.5B USD a year from coming in?
flossdaily@reddit
I'm sure Egypt loves getting a grant to do what they would have done anyway.
whater39@reddit
You think the Egyptian government wants to upset it's own people with collaborating with Israel?
flossdaily@reddit
I think I was crystal clear about why the Egyptian government is strongly motivated to do this. Mild disapproval from their own people is considerably better than violent civil war, which is what would happen if Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood was able to escape from Gaza and infect Egypt.
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
That key element is irrelevant to the argument that you can hardly call this ‘entirely pulling out’. Which, taken at face value, makes it sound like Israel left them alone. Something that is not the case because they effectively still had control over the territory.
flossdaily@reddit
Israel removed every Jewish settler, and every Jewish soldier from Gaza. That is, quite literally, "entirely pulling out."
The world has a long history of country's blockading each other. It is only in the case of israel, that dishonest people are attempting to equate a blockade with an occupation.
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
They also kept control of movement of people and goods. Again, that’s not exactly leaving these people alone or giving up control of the sector. Personally that’s not what I’d call pulling out. You also ignore the fact that ‘pulling out’ was used to avoid any political process.
I’m not equating the blockade to an occupation.
flossdaily@reddit
Then my work here is done.
whater39@reddit
This quote is from Dov Weisglass.
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
You’re correct I edited that in my comment.
Ashenveiled@reddit
Yes, because Gaza is controlled by a terrorist organisation who killed official Palestinian government in the sector
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
Yes. My point is that I personally wouldn’t exactly call this ‘pulling out entirely’. Taken at face value that would imply they started to leave these people alone and gave them a chance to return to normal life and establish a government. That was obviously not the case.
AdVivid8910@reddit
They won an election, they started slaughtering their opponents who were competition after being elected into power as is tradition in the ME.
Apprehensive_Emu9240@reddit
As was proven, Israel can just waltz in even if Hamas is armed.
_LordDaut_@reddit
Geberally and historically speaking handing over weapons is a bad idea even if when surrendering - let alone for a ceasefire.
cobcat@reddit
Yeah, Germany and Japan would have been much better off not laying down arms and being bombed into oblivion instead.
_LordDaut_@reddit
Yeah you're right just like Bosnians, Rwandans, Chinese in 1930s, The Spanish civil war, the Mensheviks and other parties afrer the Bolsheviks won in USSR..... oh wait....
Disarmament has only worked when the paired with
Do you see any of those things here?
cobcat@reddit
Why are you comparing this to a bunch of civil wars?
That's complete nonsense.
hypertension_bruh@reddit
Oh, so when it comes to holding Israel accountable for it's war crimes, it becomes an "internal conflict," but when we talk about disarmament we suddenly can't bring up civil wars?
cobcat@reddit
Who says it's an internal conflict? It's not. It's a conflict between two nations, one with a state and one without.
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
Isn't Palestine a state? They had free elections and elected Hamas after all. Just they are split by civil war currently because the PA refused to give up power.
cobcat@reddit
Palestine is not a state, no. They don't have borders or a legitimate government, nor do they functioning institutions.
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
They have a recognized democratically elected government that was elected in the presence of UN monitors. That government maintained a police force, schooling, healthcare, etc. I don't see why not?
cobcat@reddit
Most of these institutions were not managed or paid for by Hamas, but either by UNRWA, Qatar or Israel.
But you can argue that Gaza is a state, that just makes it difficult to argue that it's also a prison or that Hamas is just a resistance group and doesn't represent Gaza. The truth here is somewhere in the middle, but most people wouldn't say that Gaza is a state. It could be, someday.
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
I'd argue that Gaza+the West Bank make up the state of Palestine that had free elections then descended into civil war.
cobcat@reddit
You can argue that but it doesn't make much sense, because the West Bank doesn't have recognized borders, and neither is sovereign or has functional institutions.
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
It had generally recognized borders during the election and functional institutions. By all accounts it was soverign and the elections were fair.
cobcat@reddit
You know that Palestinians explicitly refused to recognize the armistice borders as permanent, right? And even today, not even Palestinians have a clear understanding of where the borders of "Palestine" are, let alone anyone else.
It was never sovereign, but I agree the elections were democratic and fair.
But that doesn't make a state.
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
Palestinians generally don't recognize any border that doesn't include Israel inside it lol, but most of the international community was fine with the situation.
cobcat@reddit
Everyone except Palestinians.
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
Yeah, which is why they voted Hamas in on a platform of kill the Jews. The Germans and Japanese weren't too happy with losing land post WW1 and WW2 but we didn't care about their opinion.
cobcat@reddit
Uhm, I agree with you. Are we arguing for the same thing?
_LordDaut_@reddit
The Bosnian example was not a civil war.
Yes thabk you for your wisdom apparently "nah" is a great rebuttal.
As for Germany let's talk about the first time they were forced to disarm shall we? What did that lead to within the next 2 decades I wonder?
redditing_away@reddit
Gaza and Germany aren't quite comparable, don't you think?
We also got heavy restrictions on what we could have after the second time and I think we turned out quite well.
whater39@reddit
Country got rebuilt, occupation ended after a decade. Lessons were learnt from the treaty of versailles.
cobcat@reddit
Yes! But importantly, the Nazis got prosecuted and eliminated and the country was under full foreign control that gradually eased up. The allies didn't just leave the Nazis in power and thought that they will become peaceful once Germany was in a better position.
Blarg_III@reddit
They did actually fill the West German government up with former nazis. 77% percent of West German government officials were Nazis in 1950, which is a higher percentage than during the Third Reich.
cobcat@reddit
Bad statistic. That's talking mostly about government employees, like police officers, municipal clerks, etc. The entire leadership section of the Nazi party was arrested and prosecuted.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
Except that exactly what they did in Japan.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Japan became a constitutional democracy after ww2…. Hirohito became like the queen of England after the war. A symbol of different times and nothing more.
cobcat@reddit
That's absolutely not what they did, lol. They occupied Japan for years.
redditing_away@reddit
The country got economic help and rebuilt itself after being completely devastated and still had to pay reparations. The occupation persisted for decades depending on which occupier you look at, the country was split in half, fortified and only reunited about 50 years later. Not to mention being used as a staging ground and planned battleground for much of the Cold War with guaranteed utter destruction being decided by foreign governments (US and UdSSR).
Not to mention driving out as many former officials and Nazis as possible from any position, reeducation of the population and a dictated political culture that heavily emphasized compromise, with heavy protections of the split of power built into it. Lessons were learnt and certainly for the better, but let's not pretend it was all nice and dandy here or that it happened all on its own with no alternative.
I'd welcome it if Gaza would follow the same trajectory but let's not pretend the pretext is the same. If it is the recipe for Gaza's future, we're at stage 1 with the country in ruins. How it turns out is as much decided by the Palestinians themselves as well as the ones dictating certain terms for future development.
whater39@reddit
This situation won't change if Israel doesn't also deradicalizie their population, their own failure to identify how radicalized they are is going to be a long term problem. And was Germany really deradicalizied? Because it's sure looks like only a partial deradicalization happened, and it's just a propaganda line that's said to make the Allies sound more successful post war.
Germany had most rights restored by 1955. And this was for a nation that attacked several other nations unprovoked. Hamas had lots of legit justification for Oct 7th, international law says armed resistance against occupation is legal. Two very different situations. Blockades are Casus Belli, so Israel was provoking the Palestinians via it.
As Israel has started on E1 construction, I don't think Israel wants a nice outlook for the Palestinians. E1 is definitely Israel wanting a future war or continued domination of the Palestinians. As in the Palestinians have no partner for peace.
cobcat@reddit
There was no Nazi party in Germany after the occupation ended and the far right has only recently grown in popularity again - 80 years later. So yes, they absolutely were deradicalized.
Germany didn't even exist as it did before WW2 in 1955 and it still doesn't.
Oct 7 was not armed resistance, it was terrorism, and that's never justified, least of all based on international law. You qre not allowed to deliberately kill civilians under any circumstance, or take civilian hostages.
If Hamas had just attacked the IDF on October 7 that would have been a different story, but they didn't.
Just no. The blockade is a response to Hamas rockets and terrorism. You are wrong.
But why? The problem has been for the longest time that Palestinian leadership does not want peace unless Israel becomes Palestinian. There isn't even a unified Palestinian representative. Israel has contributed to that, sure, but that's still a fact.
cobcat@reddit
It was part of the Yugoslavian civil war, what are you talking about?
It wasn't the disarmament that was problematic, it was the crushing reparations that prevented Germany from recovering. If they hadn't been forced to disarm but pay these reparations, WW2 would simply have happened sooner.
Your argument simply has no basis in reality at all, what is there to refute?
_LordDaut_@reddit
Yugoslavia qas an artificially created state by joining other states tpgether the dissolution of which led to several wars.
Or do you think Armenia Azerbaijani war in in 1991 was a "civil war" because they bith were part of the USSR?
Yeah you explain how disarmament in after the first war wasn't paired with anything I said and show how it led to WW2 - basically reiterating my argument for me and then claim it has no basis in reality - ligic has left the chat i see.
cobcat@reddit
Every state is artificial. Doesn't change the fact that the Bosnian war was part of the Yugoslavian civil war.
The USSR wasn't a state, but sure, that war blurs the line a bit. But also, neither side won outright. That's the actual key issue here. If one side capitulates the other, it's very normal for the losing side to disarm. Everything else just leads to more death.
My point is that disarmament had nothing at all to do with WW2. The reparations did. You seem to say that war could have been avoided if the aggressor of WW2 had more weapons, which... I don't even know how to respond to that. Explain to me how Germany having more weapons would have prevented WW2 please.
_LordDaut_@reddit
Some states are artificial, some more so than others borders drawn willy nilly by colonial powers. The more "artifical" and arbitrary and less organic a state's creation is the mire likely it is to fail or erupt into some war Plently of examples from India to Yugoslavia many African states.
That is not what I am saying. I am sayinf that disarmament only works when paired woth the 4 things I mentioned - otherwise it doesn't.
If you disarm a state and do not allow for ecnomoci growth, political representation amd sovereignty - they will rearm and begin a anew. So which one of those things you see happening woth Israel amd Palestine?
cobcat@reddit
Wait, who do you think created Yugoslavia? It wasn't colonial powers lol. It was the governments of Serbs, Croats, Slovenes deciding to unify, and since Bosnia wasn't independent at the time, they were incorporated into this union if slavic states.
You are saying this... based on what? There's plenty of disarmaments that worked just fine without some of these. For example, the US was not "decimated" after WW2. They were the strongest power in the world.
If one party to the conflict wanted to simply wipe out the other side, they wouldn't make peace and demand disarmament in the first place. Disarmament only happens when one side is defeated. At that point, the winning side can do whatever they want anyway. This doesn't make any sense.
If Israel wanted to wipe out Gaza, it's completely irrelevant whether Hamas has guns or not. What they want to prevent is Hamas attacking them again.
But that's the entire point of demanding disarmament. The deal is that Gaza will be rebuilt IF Hamas disarms. Otherwise they will just steal all the aid again and build even more tunnels. Political representation and sovereignty is the same - that can only happen if Hamas is no longer in power.
Just like in Germany, where the Nazis were removed, Germany was fully occupied, and THEN it was rebuilt and they regained sovereignty once they had a functioning, peaceful democracy.
_LordDaut_@reddit
Indidn't mean Yugoslavia was - i mean it was artificial just like the Transcaucasian republic was with Georgia Armenia and Azerbaijan.
After WW2 both Japan and Germany were allowed to prosper in fact major investment was made into those countries to allow their economy to grow and they weren't governed by the victors but by themsleves. That's 2 of 4 things I said - already satisified. The US wasn't l, but the US also only entered the war later - the allies including the British and the Soviets were. That's the other thing satisfied. The US was too far away and was the one doing the investments and so wasn't interested in further war. WYM what I am basing this on? I am basing it on what happened.
There is no such deal - the Palestinians will not be let to govern themselves - see what's going on the West Bank. If Gaza will be rebuilt it will not be for palestinian - they won't be let back.
Bibi had been on live TV saying how hard he's worked to disallow the creation of a Palestinian state. This victimhood of "oh boo hooo we just wanna be left alone" doesn't work anymore. If it were so wjy were they shooting cripples and children during peaceful protests instarted on March of 2018?
cobcat@reddit
But that's NOT what happened. Germany was forced to disarm as a precondition to the rebuilding. The US had overwhelming power, just like Israel has today. The Gaza deal is very similar in that regard. But you are arguing that the rebuilding has to happen before Hamas disarms, which makes no sense at all.
Of course not, because "govern by themselves" means Hamas. That's why there will be an occupation by Arab countries. Eventually, there will be elections. And what do you mean by "let back"? Gazans are still Gaza, nobody has been removed or will be removed unless they want to leave.
This is completely backwards. Again, just look at Germany and Japan.
Again, disarmament is the precondition for anything else. There can be no future for Gaza while Hamas rules everything.
_LordDaut_@reddit
Germany and Japan were under allied control, but their infrastructure and municipalities and the rest were German and Japanese. The position of actually being a recognized state Germany and Japan were also never im question.
No, I think (though I haven't argued it in this conversation at all) that recognition of a Palestinian statr has to haplen before disarmament.
I am saying there should be guarantees not just "hey buddy disarm cause you lost". Promises of removal of the blockade of Gaza, articulated plan on how power transfer will happen, alternatives to.violence for economic growth - e.g. the removal.of the blockade and so on. Otherwise either Gaza will.be wiped or something equivalent to HAMAS will.continue to fight.
Gazans have been moved around within Gaza and forced into denser and denser areas cornered into "safe zones". They will not be let back to spread as they originally were
namikazeiyfe@reddit
Germany? Japan? The confederates? Even the Lehi group has to hand over their weapons before they got absorbed into the IDF.
_LordDaut_@reddit
Tell me what happened after the first time Germant was forced to disarm?
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
I suspect the rise of the Nazis had a few more complex factors than just the disarmament of Germany.
_LordDaut_@reddit
The humiliation and the unfair practices with forced disarmament is what majorly caused it
No-Contribution-6150@reddit
Mostly the forced reparations
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
Yeah, it wasn't the humiliation or disarmament that caused it, it was the terrible economy which was hitting the world almost as bad as Germany.
No-Contribution-6150@reddit
Mostly the forced reparations
No-Contribution-6150@reddit
There was a lot more going on in Germany then. It's false to conclude everything to disarmament.
Thangoman@reddit
That wasnt really a waltz, more of a very slow slasher villain walking in
Apprehensive_Emu9240@reddit
As far as I'm concerned irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, that it's clear the Israeli's are no longer afraid to barge into Gaza. They've seen pretty much the whole world abandon the Palestinians whilst they did as they pleased.
sarim25@reddit
Looking at how the West Bank is being slowly divided by settlements, it is easy to see if Hamas disarms, the same will happen.
meister2983@reddit
There's no settlements in area A which is that only area the pa paramilitary actually controls
TraditionalGap1@reddit
They didn't say 'area A', did they?
What did they actually say?
meister2983@reddit
There's no Palestine government in charge of that area. It's not a reasonable comparison.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
I think it's a lack of arms and violent pushback that makes Israel feel it can continue to further chop up the West Bank, yes.
meister2983@reddit
It hasn't chopped area a
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Again, nobody said 'area A'.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
But it’s part of the West Bank isn’t it? Why not read what actually chopped up the West Bank, it’s an internationally recognize legal document.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
It's only one part of the West Bank and everyone else is specifically referring to the whole of the West Bank.
If I say 'this car is rusty!', telling me 'but this door here is rust-free!' while technically true misses that we're talking about a rusty car
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Buddy read Oslo. It allows Israel free will militarily if the PA is unwilling or unable to defend Israel from threats originating in the West Bank. Area A is supposed to stay entirely unmolested and it has, that’s the point. All Israeli settlements are contain in area C, that’s not the entirety of the West Bank isn’t it?
TraditionalGap1@reddit
How you can think this in 2025 is beyond me.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Geeze, what changed in the last few years? How much of Oslo did Hamas nullify in 2007 after they killed all of Hamas? Any idea? Again refer to point 1, Oslo makes provision for the Israeli army to operate across ALL of the West Bank if the PA is unwilling or unable.
Do you think it’s coincidental that the PA struggled to stop terrorism coming from the Jenin Camp for months. All of the sudden the PA withdraws and Israel drops a few bombs; now the leaders of Hamas and PIJ in the West Bank are disarmed and have surrendered to the PA. The PA can now freely administer the areas it’s supposed to. The positive of all of this is that no more innocent Palestinians or Jews have to die because of a few bad actors originating from Jenin.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
This all sounds like details that explain why Area A isn't unmolested and not a defence that it is unmolested
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Oh I’m sorry, you’re right. It would have been much better if they let terrorists continue to operate out of Jenin. It would have definitely saved lives. They’re trying to stop from being dragged into a horrible war… are you really that dense?
TraditionalGap1@reddit
My concern is your willingness to make statements without thinking about them and whether they're actually true or not. That you'd make such an obviously false statement makes me concerned about everything else you're saying and whether any of it is based in thought
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
You can fact check it all lol. You have the internet, you’re talking to me on it.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Sure, but anyone willing to say 'Area A is entirely unmolested' probably isn't interested in reality, so I'm out.
Peace
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
I gave you the sources, no need to be so petulant. You’re making a really dumb argument on the context of one statement, rather than the content of my counter. I know intellectual honesty is hard when you’re confronted with actual facts and sources.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
The context here is you jumping in on a conversation with a guy trying to 'but Area A' observations about the West Bank as a whole. Your links, while fine and great, are just a continuation of the 'but Area A' track the last guy was on. You got links, bully for you; more 'but Area A' isn't moving the conversation along.
Irrelevance and obviously untrue statements aren't a good combination.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Ah yes, the good old refer me back to the beginning so the entirety of my last comment seems misplaced. Our conversation has evolved by quite a few posts by now hasn’t it? Do you do you have anything to add besides your opinion?
TraditionalGap1@reddit
No, my stance is still the same: Israel would feel less entitled to roll over the West Bank if the West Bank was armed, like Gaza.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Dude… lol. The PA actively works with Israel to protect the lives of Israelis and Palestinians. Hamas sacrifices both for money and to pressure Israel. You don’t care about Palestinians do you?
The PA cooperates with Israel because there is no other way to peace but through cooperation. Land and concessions gotten through violence beget more violence. I’m sorry if you’re unable to see how morally bankrupt your position is.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
That must be why the last two years have seen more children killed by Israel in the West Bank than the previous two decades combined. The PA is a joke, a feckless collaborationist admin with no legitimacy and no respect from Palestinians or Israel.
Right! Exactly! This is what Palestine supporters have been saying FOREVER! This is the crux of opposition to Israel and how it conducts itself. I wish I could point harder at this statement
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Except all the land gained by Israel has been in wars started by Arabs. Go figure.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Which... uhh... doesn't negate your statement at all?
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Which uhh does. Because Arabs started wars to wipe out Israelis and lost which means they get worse terms each time they start wars of annihilation. There’s been quite a few of them.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Besides all the settlements, you mean.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
The settlements in Gaza?
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
“According to the official, the truce was reached Friday evening, a day after negotiations resumed following a rupture earlier this week, said to have been caused by Israel’s resumption of airstrikes on Jenin.
The truce deal requires specific members of the Jenin Battalion to hand over their weapons and allows the PA to operate freely in the refugee camp, the official said.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-makes-deal-with-jenin-battalion-ending-standoff-in-west-bank-city-and-camp/amp/
PA in Jenin prior
https://thearabweekly.com/civilians-under-fire-jenin-pa-forces-face-armed-militants
Another one
“The Palestinian Authority, which governs the West Bank, has spent weeks weeks besieging the Jenin refugee camp. The tussle for power is also a fight over different visions for the Palestinian people.”
https://www.npr.org/programs/all-things-considered/2025/01/08/all-things-considered-for-january-08-2025
Before all of this
“In Jenin, IDF kills 2 gunmen who shot 3 Israelis dead in terror attack this month Hamas confirms Qutaiba al-Shalabi and Mohammed Nazal carried out attack; defense minister says Gaza lessons being applied in West Bank amid major Jenin operation”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-jenin-idf-kills-2-gunmen-who-shot-3-israelis-dead-in-terror-attack-this-month/amp/
whater39@reddit
Since you have the American tag on your profile. What about the American saying "armed minorities are harder to oppress". American's love to say that line, well why should Hamas disarm in the context of that line?
meister2983@reddit
I fail to see how Hamas being armed has stopped Israel from razing the place.
namikazeiyfe@reddit
That's for West Bank, Israel has never desired Gaza and they pulled out of the strip and destroyed all settlements there 20 years ago which gave Hamas the opportunity to take over. This narrative that Israel are planning to build settlements in Gaza is just plain wrong.
ThePlacidAcid@reddit
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y59z6rznvo
TraditionalGap1@reddit
sad trombone noises
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
“We’re only acting illegally in the West Bank now! We were previously acting illegally in Gaza, but we stopped that. Kind of, we started starving them. But don’t focus on that. Focus on where we temporarily stopped brutalising them one way and swapped to a different way!”
This is in the same vein as “look at all the kids we didn’t kill yet! We’re practically saints because there are still children alive in Gaza!”
MaestroRozen@reddit
Because Hamas having guns did such a splendid job of preventing Israel from doing whatever they want so far. They have no or next to no armor, airforce, AA defenses or effective artillery - against a modernized army like the IDF, there is already very little difference between what they have and being barehanded. Hamas' weapons serve one purpose and one purpose only : violence against civilians, on both sides. Because that's the only way they can stay relevant.
KaiBahamut@reddit
Why don't we give them some tanks and airforce then? That way they can actually attack the Israeli military in a fair fight.
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
I mean during the last invasion when 3+ nations invaded Israel they had like a 5 to 1 advantage and still lost with modern equipment. One issue with Islamic nations is the amount of corruption and incompetence makes the Russian army look good. Every commander is someones nephew with 0 experience while soldiers have never done any training and will just get angry and fight you if you give them orders.
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
Didn't Israel do that originally? Palestine had free elections and the PA refused to give up power (understandably citing fears that Hamas would execute them all if they did) leading to the civil war and splitting of West Bank and Gaza. Hamas ran on a very popular platform of genociding the Jews though I'm led to understand they've toned it down to just destroying Israel recently to keep things politically correct.
Ashenveiled@reddit
for what reason? israel couldt care less about gaza as a territory.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit (OP)
I always see you defending Israel? Are you one of those Russian liberal who idolize the west?
Zipz@reddit
And that’s a bad thing why?
AdVivid8910@reddit
Hahahahaha, what a give away that you are Russian prop farm worker! How’s the Mesopotamian LARP going? Has anyone fallen for it yet?
Ashenveiled@reddit
And I saw you blaming Israel for everything that goes wrong, including a fucking car crash of people who have nothing to do with Israel.. You are terrorist apologiser and Hamas fanboy, who is online 24/7 posting Islamist propaganda
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
If that’s true why establish settlements there in the first place?
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Hamas has never said it would disarm, the deal that was signed and agreed to does not mention disarmament. Considering how that signed agreement has been shat on and defied by Israel I struggle to see how anyone is going to trust the USA or Israel, especially when Israel breaking the agreement has no consequences.
Bourbon-Decay@reddit
They have said they are willing to disarm. If Israel desires disarmament all they need to do is leave illegally occupied Palestinian territory and recognize a sovereign Palestinian state.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Hamas just disassembles and transforms into a Palestinian defence force in that scenario.
Thangoman@reddit
I think they said they are willing to give up their arms to the PA
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
Hamas won the last election and the PA refused to give up power leading to the civil war and splitting of West Bank and Gaza. Hamas has publicly executed members of the PA and vice-versa I doubt they would trust each other given they've spent decades killing each other.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
This isn’t entirely true. Hamas won a majority of seats, they didn’t “win the elections” they should have been sharing power with the PA in Gaza, but killed them all insteax.
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
Technically if you have a majority you can just implement what you want, there wasn't a requirement to have say 70% of the seats to implement things you know? So it wouldn't be sharing power unless Hamas volunteered to share which wasn't happening.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
2005 Cairo agreement, go read it instead of grasping at straws.
Thangoman@reddit
Its not about trust but about what Hamas said
Hamas saidbhe would give up arms to a Palestinian gov
If Israel makes the preparations for the PAto take over, Hamas ends up with no excuse
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
Yeah, they said that but that's probably because they would be the next government, poll projections show Hamas is even more popular than they were last election.
Blarg_III@reddit
Every person in Gaza has been given ironclad justification to hate Israel with all their being over the past two years. If they didn't before, they surely do now and who can blame them?
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
Exactly, so how can you end the war, go back home, let them hold elections, and expect a different result than being attacked again?
Bourbon-Decay@reddit
Ok. Is there a problem with Palestinians defending themselves?
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Nope, perfectly legal.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Hardly.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
The precedent has been set, legitimacy forgives all sins, sorry.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
What makes you think if Israel ends the occupation and recognizes a Palestinian state Hamas will suddenly stop its fight to destroy Israel?
Drab_Majesty@reddit
I remember this line, where have I heard it before. Oh yeah, Apartheid South Africa.
meister2983@reddit
Can you expand on that analogy? Not following at all
Drab_Majesty@reddit
It's the fear of change that turns security into a shield for maintaining privilege, whether in South Africa then or Israel now.
meister2983@reddit
I don't follow the connection here. Israel isn't fearing change; they are actually fearing that change doesn't happen (getting a state doesn't cause the more maximalist palestinian groups to moderate and not want to destroy Israel anymore)
Drab_Majesty@reddit
What are you even suggesting... that Israel actually wants to end the occupation? That is news to everyone.
The change is the end of the occupation and statehood for Palestine.
meister2983@reddit
The entire justification to the majority of the country for the occupation is that a Palestinian state is dangerous to Israel. I really don't get your analogy.
Zakaru99@reddit
How often do you think White South Africans claimed that if the Black South Africans were given power in South Africa that it would result in white genocide?
Hint: It was a lot.
That's what the analogy is about.
meister2983@reddit
Did the black South Africans claim they would genocide the whites? If true, your analogy has weight
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
The 2nd? Or was it third most powerful politically party in South Africa said that didn't they?
meister2983@reddit
We're taking pre 1994 political parties/orgs. Who said that?
Certainly no one with 50+% support of the population
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
They are radical communists that call for genocide with over 6% of the vote. If a Nazi or radical communist party ran in any Western nation and got over 6% of the vote we'd freak out.
meister2983@reddit
First off, the EFF didn't even exist before 2013, so I don't get the relevance.
Secondly, we are critiquing an analogy here. I'm arguing it doesn't make sense to claim Israel fears change; it fears the broadly militant groups doing exactly what they say they will do, that is no change.
Like literally the only argument that is valid to a most Israelis to justify the creation of a state is that the militant groups will somehow change and moderate. The not change condition is what is feared
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
Wasn't the Palestine that elected in Hamas then split due to the resulting civil war a state? Hamas is polling even more popular than it was that election so what would change if we went back to before?
meister2983@reddit
I have no idea what this has to do with the current topic
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Because you evidently are part of the analogy. You are the white South African who believed that ending Apartheid would be dangerous for the oppressors.
whater39@reddit
Or look up the statements that pro-slavery people were saying, how they couldn't release the slaves as they had been horrible to them, and they might seek revenge. Yet when the slaves were free, retribution was very small.
meister2983@reddit
The slaves didn't all say that they would seek revenge though. That's the difference here.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
No, it was Nazi Germany. They also wanted to take over their neighbors and destroy them.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
ummm you might want to be careful comparing the Israeli occupation of Palestine to Nazis... 👀
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
I'm comparing Palestine to the Nazis and deservedly so. Did you know the Nazis also whined and claimed they were victims of genocide?
Goebbels - In the Front Ranks " . I accuse the enemy of conducting brutal air terror for no other reason than to torture a defenseless civilian population, to inflict sorrow, horrors, pain, and death upon them as a way of forcing them to betray their nation. Such an attempt will never succeed. These cowardly deeds will only bring eternal shame on the nations whose governments carry on such contemptible and insidious warfare against women, old people, and children
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Are you suggesting that the Palestinian suffering is exaggerated? I am not sure what your point was meant to be because right now your Goebbels quote applies more to Israel. Beheaded babies, babies in ovens, hospital Hamas HQ...
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
I'm saying Palestine uses their suffering the same way the Nazis did.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
lolwut? the pesky Palestinians should stop crying as they are buried alive.
Israel gets a pass though, convenient. You needed to get on that perpetual victimhood patent, early.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
The Palestinians should make peace and accept the other side's existence. That goes for Israel too.
LMAO what hypocrisy.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
LMAO what hypocrisy
r/selfawarewolves
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
You are aware that Palestine consider itself the biggest victims in history right? It's busy claiming Gaza is "worse than the Holocaust."
Drab_Majesty@reddit
You gotta stat for that, is there a source for Palestine being top of the rankings? If we are being honest you are channeling your inner "Goebbels" to minimise the suffering of those you consider less than human.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Here's multiple Palestine propagandists saying Gaza is worse than the Holocaust.
Show me any other group that considers itself that big of a victim.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Oh dear... I will say that the fact that the genocide is ongoing is definitely a bad thing next to a genocide that has been halted and the perpetrators punished. Would you disagree?
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
I'll answer that once you answer my request to find a group that considers itself as big of a victim as Palestine does.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
ok Israel, boom. Do you want me to find a random twitter user and tell you they represent all of Israel?
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Medhi Hasan is not a random Twitter user, and there is no prominent pro-Israel person who thinks Israelis are bigger victims of an event worse than the Holocaust.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
He never said that the current genocide is worse than the holocaust and I actually agree with him. I also don't believe in genocide Olympics.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
That's word for word what he said. Go read the link.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
That is word for word and that is not a declaration that the current genocide is worse than the holocaust. It's actually a valid assessment. Maybe it's your American education letting your reading comprehension down.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
He said the Gaza genocide is worse than the Holocaust.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Would you disagree?
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Yes, I would. I'm glad you acknowledge he said the Gaza genocide is worse than the Holocaust.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
I could explain to you how that's not at all what I said but I don't have crayons and craft paper on hand for you.
so yes whatever you believe *pats on head
oliham21@reddit
Sure but the Nazis weren’t actually being genocided you moron lol. Like I hasbara bot but what an insane thing to say
Ok_Currency_617@reddit
Didn't Israel do that originally? Palestine had free elections and the PA refused to give up power (understandably citing fears that Hamas would execute them all if they did) leading to the civil war and splitting of West Bank and Gaza. Hamas ran on a very popular platform of genociding the Jews though I'm led to understand they've toned it down to just destroying Israel recently to keep things politically correct.
bellysavalis@reddit
If we were to go with one of Israel's favourite comparisons, the Allies were more than happy to incorporate the majority of the Nazis into civil services, police and military after WWII simply because they knew how the country worked and it was the most logical option.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
After denazification occurred, and I'd be happy to do the same when Palestine is denazified.
FeijoadaAceitavel@reddit
Calling Palestinians Nazis is so fucking dishonest. They're not the ethnosupremacists in this conflict.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Palestine is certainly the ethnosupremacist side in this conflict.
FeijoadaAceitavel@reddit
Yeah, it's the one that allows people of a certain ethnicity, and only people from that ethnicity, to migrate there, right? The one that enshrined in its "constitution" that only one ethnicity is entitled to self-determination, right?
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Correct.
"The State of Palestine is an Arab state, an integral and indivisible part of the Arab nation, at one with that nation in heritage and civilization"
"The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will."
"The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian."
Palestine is for Arabs and only for Arabs. Ethnosupremacist?
bellysavalis@reddit
The difference here would be with Palestinians you'd be telling them to stop hating Israel for killing and torturing all their family, stealing their land and heaping nothing but non stop misery on them for decades. Maybe the best way to deradicalize them would be to stop doing all that
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
I don't want either side to hate. Can you say the same?
bellysavalis@reddit
Of course I can, but it's Israel that needs to stop treating these people the way they do. There's no Palestinians in any position of power over the the Israeli populous. Acts carried out by the Palestinians have been in desperation in the face of their extinction, Israel's actions have been about nothing except bringing that extinction about.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Palestine also needs to stop treating Israelis the way they do and make peace.
Oh, please. Palestine was murdering Jews before Israel even existed. Stop justifying murder.
bellysavalis@reddit
Again, try maybe treating them fairly for the first time in a 100 odd years and perhaps that will happen.
Reasoning is not justification, it's been true since the dawn of time through every society that if you put groups of people in desperate situations, bad things happen.
Also Jewish militias of the time have hands just as bloody, if not moreso. You might also remember that Palestine wilfully took refugees from the holocaust.
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Safed 1834. Look it up. No Israel, no militias, no Zionism.
Let me know when the Arab nation plans to treat Jews fair for the first time in 1000 years.
wimmick@reddit
Nice cherry picking, but many jews were protected by Palestinians during the riots in safed in 1834. It was not a direct pogram against jews but a riot against taxes introduced by the Egyptian occupied Palestine, during which some muslim and druze populations looted and murdered jews AND christions - many of whom were punished.
Jews have lived in Palestine for centuries mostly peacefully with occasional violence, but hey its not like jews were persecuted since roman times or by religious zealots other than muslims.. oh wait..
McAlpineFusiliers@reddit
Many Jews were also raped and murdered by Palestinians then. Maybe the Jews treated them unfairly?
PMmePowerRangerMemes@reddit
Don’t bother. This dude’s in every thread defending the honor of the genocidal apartheid state.
Thangoman@reddit
Denazification never occurred. The people who carried out true denazification were the 60s youth movements
EducationalReply6493@reddit
That’s literally exactly how the idf was formed, Zionist terrorist groups became a recognized military overnight.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
I think we then understand why Israel does not want legitimacy for Palestine.
DopeShitBlaster@reddit
“Israel should aim to bring about the fragmentation of the Arab world into a mosaic of ethnic and confessional groupings.[5] 'Every kind of inter-Arab confrontation,' he argued, would prove to be advantageous to Israel in the short term.[19] He saw contemporary events in Lebanon as a foreshadowing of future developments overall throughout the Arab world. The upheavals would create a precedent for guiding Israeli short-term and long-term strategies. Specifically, he asserted that the immediate aim of policy should be the dissolution of the military capabilities of Arab states east of Israel, while the primary long-term goal should work towards the formation of unique areas defined in terms of ethnonational and religious identities.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinon_Plan
Soldier-Of-Dance@reddit
Oded Yinon was a nobody you can barely prove even existed, much less was a significant figure in Israeli history. The Yinon Plan is a cute anti-Zionist conspiracy conjured off something someone irrelevant wrote.
DopeShitBlaster@reddit
Dude clearly could predict the future.
Israel played both sides of the Iran/Iraq conflict. Arms the Kurds, arms the Druze, arms ISIS in Gaza.
ilikedota5@reddit
Well not all of them were terrorist groups. When there were fears of Nazis sweeping up from Egypt. Lehi wanted to preemptively massacre the Palestinian Arab population. Haganah wanted to fortify and prepare for a Masada style last stand.
flossdaily@reddit
Yeah ... Hamas thinks they have some leverage. They have been really emboldened by the EU nations and others who have already "recognized" such a Palestinian state.
GothicGolem29@reddit
The full deal(which is how the war will end) does include disarming iirc butHamas just agreed the phase 1
Drab_Majesty@reddit
that's not how diplomacy works, you don't add conditions after the fact
flossdaily@reddit
Phase 2 of the peace plan very much says that Hamas must disarm... So yes, the plan more than "mentions" it. But you're correct that Hamas has not agreed to that phase of the plan.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Phase 2 what? Show me a source that Hamas has agreed to disarmament or whatever phase you want to call it. The agreement was signed and shared for all to see. You have swallowed the imperial master narrative and ignored the actual agreement.
RockstepGuy@reddit
This is point 13 of the peace deal, Hamas has yet to agree and act to it, but has already agreed to the first points, so we do ave their "intention", otherwise they would had rejected the plan.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Hamas has never agreed to that peace deal, that is not the deal that was signed. Have you got a source that shows they have agreed to it.
flossdaily@reddit
Correct. Hamas has only agreed to phase 1.
Israel has agreed to the entire thing.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
No shit, they have agreed to it they don't have to abide by it.
flossdaily@reddit
Israel would be held to the agreement by the United States and the rest of the international community if ma's agreed to the agreement and met their obligations at each phase.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
kinda awkward when Israel violated the plan already...
flossdaily@reddit
... In response to Hamas failing to meet their agreed-to obligations.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
and the agreed obligations that they failed were?
flossdaily@reddit
Hamas obligated themselves to return the remains of the deceased hostages. They have not done so.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
So you haven't read the agreement then.
flossdaily@reddit
I have. It always you haven't. This should help you get up to speed:
source: counsel of foreign relations
Drab_Majesty@reddit
I just so happen to have an Israeli source with the signed agreement. Maybe have an actual read.
So tell me again how they did not fulfil their obligations.
flossdaily@reddit
Well, for starters, one of the bodies they returned wasn't a hostage.
Israel is also saying that Hamas has not fulfilled their obligation to give all the information they have about the known last whereabouts of the deceased hostages.
... Although I am very willing to admit but given the actual sign document, these violations seem relatively minimal.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Without DNA access I am not sure how that type of mistake is going to be avoided.
flossdaily@reddit
It could have been avoided by not kidnapping them in the first place.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
I think we could keep going further back if you want to continue that train of thought.
flossdaily@reddit
I'd be happy to. No matter how far back you go, Israel is in the right.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
I am glad you are being so accommodating, let's just skip to Canaan then.
flossdaily@reddit
The Trump peace plan. It's weird that you'd be commenting on this story while being completely unaware of this plan, which has dominated the news for weeks.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
I am well aware so much so that I know that the only source for it is the white house itself and there is no verification that anyone has seen it on the Hamas side let alone agreed to it. So maybe you know more than me and can show where Hamas has agreed to this phase 2 or phase 3...
flossdaily@reddit
The plan has been shared with major news organizations and published.
Hamas has not agreed to phase 2. Because they are the obstacle to peace, and always have been.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Has Israel fulfilled its part of phase 1?
FriedRice2682@reddit
What I find amazing is how difficult it was to have any kind of reporting from international media on Hamas and that now that a truce has been signed and that all seems to be on Hamas shoulders, I get dozen of news article spam about Hamas weapons.
Anyway,
I really wonder why they won't give up arms?
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
Says Israel…
pingpongpiggie@reddit
Yeah, he points out that Israel was funding and arming Abu Shebab who was stealing aid, not Hamas.
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
I was a bit quick on the draw there I guess. My b.
OptimisticRealist__@reddit
Its both amazing and disgusting just how absolutely radicalised this sub has people to the point they side with a literal terrorist group. Absolute headloss. Esp the europeans - im sure they like to shit on MAGA in the US, then turn around to openly cheer a damn islamic terror group.
ijzerwater@reddit
in the choice between a genocidal group of war criminals and a terrorist group, some of us chose against genocide and war criminals. Amazing but true.
Zipz@reddit
Imagine pretending hamas isn’t genocidal
ijzerwater@reddit
imagine Israel gave money and resources to Hamas, which they now consider genocidal
Zipz@reddit
You mean Qatar gave hamas those things, and Israel didn't break international law by stealing it
ijzerwater@reddit
maybe read this https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082
Hamas was founded against the occupation by Israel.
Zipz@reddit
Holy shit
You cannot be serious you just gave a source that agreed with me
It’s in the freaking first line
“Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel’s regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, “
Holy shit
Secondly
From Hamas’s founding charter
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/21st_century/hamas.asp
“"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).”
I honestly can’t even believe you did that how embarrassing
ijzerwater@reddit
if you are happy with Israel enabling hamas, then I am nor complaining
Zipz@reddit
Idk what happened to your last comment it’s gone now
But I just want you to know I’m still laughing at you
ijzerwater@reddit
ok, cool
Zipz@reddit
I like how you ignored you embarrassed yourself with that article
LOL
Are you just going to ignore you made a fool of yourself ?
ijzerwater@reddit
yep, if that made you happy with Israel enabling hamas, a group that you seem to think as founded on killing all jews across the world and genocidal.
OptimisticRealist__@reddit
Oh sod off. The tiktok radicals were pro hamas the day the terrorist attack - worse than 9/11 was for the us btw - took place. Hell, you had celebrations across european streets.
If youre comfortable supporting terrorists, at least have the balls to not re-write history and actually own up to it.
ijzerwater@reddit
my switch was in early begin on century. Starting snipping the news out of the newspaper and ended with stacks of small font page 8 1 column 5 line items with Palestinian victims and one or two big font page 1 Israel victims snips and realized the truth of things
FeijoadaAceitavel@reddit
The left has been against Zionism's ethnosupremacist and colonialist movement way before Israel even formed. Labor Zionists were kicked from leftist organizations for their horrendous views in early 1900s.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
How can you be disguisted by Hamas supporters while you support Israel who murdered 100x the amount of people and forced many more to starve and be left without a roof over their heads? Not to mention that the vast majority of pro-Palestinians don't support Hamas.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Why is it folks like you seem incapable of understanding that Palestine supporters aren't a monolith and that random tiktoker A B or C saying X Y or Z (and why you consider tiktok a source of anything is another giant red flag, but that's for another day) doesn't represent the complete and full opinion of everyone else?
Not to mention that entire 'pattern' of 'thought' is ludicrously brainless and thoughtless; all we need to do is point at the extreme pro-Israeli voices to dump on you and win your game.
At least pretend like you thimk about these things
upbeatchief@reddit
We saw israel arm militias in gaza, if the people of gaza don't want to be under the thumb of gangs loyal to israel they need to fight them. That means they need weapons.
https://news.sky.com/story/hamas-battles-rival-militias-for-control-of-gaza-following-israels-withdrawal-13450580
miklosokay@reddit
"People of Gaza". Do you really believe hamas represents and cares for the civilians of Gaza?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
miklosokay:
This is an interesting idea. Let’s explore it. We know most Hamas members are orphans. You also say they don’t care about other Palestinians. Israel kills the parents of a Palestinian who you say doesn’t care about other Palestinians, and that Palestinian then joins Hamas. Why? Because they “don’t care about other Palestinians?”
Your logic seems flawed.
CobberCat@reddit
Lol. Source: you made it up.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
You are the nicest genocide proponent.
https://xcancel.com/AjAqrabawi/status/1726230335187497084?lang=en
CobberCat@reddit
Oh, my bad. Source: fucking twitter. Lol.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
I understand - you’re upset that any Palestinian children are left alive.
CobberCat@reddit
Keep projecting buddy.
Do you spread this bullshit intentionally or are you just really gullible?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
It’s funny. You are responding according to the formula you were taught, but after two years of justifying the mass murder of Palestinian kids, justifying and excusing mass rapes of prisoners, justifying and denying genocide, we know your internal monologue is still “I don’t understand - why would killing Palestinian kids be bad? Why is hurting Palestinians bad? It feels good to hurt Palestinians - how can they call that bad?”
The sad thing is that you won’t ever understand and you will forever be confused about it. You were taught it’s good to hurt and kill Palestinians. You roam the West Bank doing it with like-minded individuals. You join the IDF so you can do it more, knowing that the more you hurt them the better you feel. And now that the web had people who say that’s sick and wrong you are completely lost.
flossdaily@reddit
Represents? Absolutely. Polls conducted by The Palestinian University have when Hamas is by far the most popular political party. This has been true for a very, very long time.
Hamas is so popular that even in the West Bank, they haven't held elections because fatah knows they would lose power to Hamas their, too.
Cares for? No.
miklosokay@reddit
Well that sure sounds lucky, since Hamas has ruled as a dictatorship since the election of 2006 in Gaza. But I sure am glad that elections are superfluous with such support in pollings! Who wouldn't be supportive if an organization ruling by violence, hoarding aid and using donated funds to build the world's largest military tunnel network that banned from being used by non hamas gazans.
This is not minted on you /u/flossdaily, it's just the nativity of this particular sub, when it comes to Gaza, is mind boggling...
flossdaily@reddit
A dictatorship? Who is the dictator?
Think you mean "synonymous"?
Support for Hamas has always been more than double the support of their second closest rivals.
If this support was not a super clear indicator of a willingness of the population to overwhelmingly vote for hamas, fatah would not have been afraid to have elections in the West Bank.
KaiBahamut@reddit
Ah yes, the classic 'Look, Saddam Hussein/Putin has really good poll numbers, they'd win in a democracy anyway' argument.
flossdaily@reddit
That would be a valid argument ... except Hamas is the most popular political party in the West Bank as well, which is controlled by fatah. Fatah hasn't held elections in a loooong time because they would lose control to Hamas.
KaiBahamut@reddit
So? The West Bank is the West Bank and Gaza is Gaza. Maybe Hamas looks good by comparison to their Vichy France ass governance.
flossdaily@reddit
Make up your mind. Are the Palestinians in support of Hamas because they're under duress or not?
Sounds like you're trying to argue both sides.
KaiBahamut@reddit
In Gaza, they are under duress. In West Bank, the Fatah is garbage and makes the alternative look appealing. Hamas shouldn’t be in the government for a free Palestine.
flossdaily@reddit
The attitudes in the West Bank is really damning, impeaching evidence for your claim about the Gazans. I really think you're making an unserious argument.
callmejellydog@reddit
Most of the traffic in this sub is pro Hamas bots. Someone told me the other day that LGBT people would be welcomed in Gaza. The delusion and hallucination from the bots is incredible.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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HourEast5496@reddit
For the last two years, znazis have been telling us kHuMaAs is people of Gaza, all of them. Who do we listen to at this point?
RetardedGaming@reddit
Even if Hamas said they would disarm (they wouldn't) it would be logistically to actually accomplish. There's no way that all Palestinian resistance fighters would just give up their weapons after 2 years of genocide. The only thing that stands before dozens of Merkava tanks and Gaza city is a sh*tton of Yassin strikes and the fighters know that
Rulweylan@reddit
The only thing that stands between the idf and Gaza city is their willingness to deal with the negative publicity. Hamas as a defensive force are significantly worse than useless to the Palestinian people.
AVeryBadMon@reddit
They can aim all they want, but it's not going to happen. Nobody stands by them. The US, UK, most of the Arab league, and the PLO are with Israel on wanting them gone, and they're the relevant international parties. Everyone else doesn't care. The only one that did was Iran, but they no longer can do anything because lost all their leverage in the region.
Hamas doesn't have the diplomatic means to remain in power. They don't have the sympathy of the international community like the Ukrainian government does because they started this war and have to taken every step to help fuck over Gaza since and they have zero leverage now to make any demands in negotiations. There's absolutely no way they can dictate the terms of the peace deals. They also don't have the military means to defend Gaza or themselves, which means not only have they lost the war they started but they also lost de facto control of the strip to Israel.
I think it's obvious at this point to everyone except for this sub for whatever reason understands that Hamas is only out for themselves. Hamad understands that their days are numbered, and they're desperately clinging on to power by any means. That's why they're starting to massacre people in Gaza. Which is ironic because they're doing what Israel has been doing. They're going around indiscriminately killing any and all civilians who even mildly dislikes them by labeling them as Israeli collaborators with zero proof and no due process.
This is their final stand before they're actually removed from power. They're going to be removed whether they want it or not, and it will happen sooner or later.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Citation Needed.
Everything I've seen in Arab commentary says the opposite: The Arab states are highly skeptical of the 'peace plan', don't believe that Israel and the US will act in good faith to advance peace and that any real resolution here requires Palestinian reconciliation and buy-in from various factions in order to be meaningful and durable. They don't consider this a serious peace plan.
november512@reddit
The Arab states are highly skeptical because Hamas isn't being disarmed properly. Most of them hate Hamas, Egypt has always had issues with Muslim Brotherhood and the rest of the states jut don't want to fight Israel.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
And the completely unrealistic fantasy political aspects? You think they buy that?
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Yeah? Where did you hear that?
blancrabbiit@reddit
We'll see how it goes, remaining rather optimistic that they'll be able to sort out an apolitical transitional government soon, and that Hamas acquiesce to the demands to surrender their more robust munitions.
Lazy_Membership1849@reddit
What apolitical if government is political
blancrabbiit@reddit
..........................A government that isn't run by politicians but by experts (read Autocracy)
ijzerwater@reddit
Tony Blair and Donald Trump technocrats?
blancrabbiit@reddit
I did not even mention them....I'm simply saying that the transitional government should be 1) apolotical, a party that is not influenced by ideology or partisan interests (neither the PA or Hamas), 2) Focused on revitalizing critical vital infrastructure such as education, healthcare, public services, and security, 3) willing to cooperate with whomever will be part of the recognition process of Palestine.
ijzerwater@reddit
nor Israel or USA I hope you agree
blancrabbiit@reddit
Of course, It should be Palestinians governing Palestinians. The PNI comes to mind.
miklosokay@reddit
You are thinking of a technocrat government. Autocracy is more akin to a dictatorship.
blancrabbiit@reddit
Ah, my apologies then.
Lazy_Membership1849@reddit
You could edit at least
Lazy_Membership1849@reddit
And isn't a politician also an expert as well?
Elman89@reddit
Very funny.
ToranjaNuclear@reddit
One can just look at Ukraine to see what an agreement with the US to disarm looks like. Israel would keep oppressing Palestine and take the first opportunity to continue the slaughter.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
miklosokay:
This is an interesting idea. Let’s explore it. We know most Hamas members are orphans. You also say they don’t care about other Palestinians. Israel kills the parents of a Palestinian who you say doesn’t care about other Palestinians, and that Palestinian then joins Hamas. Why? Because they “don’t care about other Palestinians?”
Your logic seems flawed.
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