Freed Israeli hostage says he was held by "a first-grade teacher...a lecturer at a university and another was a doctor"

Posted by McAlpineFusiliers@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 833 comments

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ilimlidevrimci@reddit

Let me get this straight: He was guarded by civilians who joined the resistance and faced starvation like the rest of Gaza. How is that cause for outrage, exactly? It's not like they could either free or feed them. I'd take that over being imprisoned by the IOF any day of the week.

All that BS about unspeakable torture rings really hollow seeing how there are no discernible evidence of physical harm (unlike almost every Palestinian hostage released) as well as them refusing to provide testimony.

Shoham said his time in captivity included “a lot of torture and cruelty.” Asked to describe one of the worst moments, Shoham declined, saying “disconnecting from the experience” helped him keep on fighting.

I call BS. The only act of cruelty he can recount is directed towards a Palestinian (probably a collaborator). He sounds like a total government propagandist.

“I felt a lot of support from the government — I have a psychologist, financial support — anything that I needed was taken care of. I personally felt a lot of gratitude to my country in these days.”

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TipiTapi@reddit

My family faced more hardship in wars than palestinians in gaza and they never joined a terrorist group not during not after.

Stop acting like palestinians are animals with no impulse control. Stop acting like they are just a force of nature. They are human beings.

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My great grandpa literally choose a forced work camp over going back to kill croatians as a guerilla fighter so you can stop chirping.

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ilimlidevrimci@reddit

Its great grandpa now? And he used to be a "guerilla fighter"? And that was less noble than surrendering to the enemy? Make it make sense.

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Jotun35@reddit

Yeah... It's weird isn't it? When people in your family are torn to pieces by bombs and everyone you know dies an atrocious death including kids, you become kinda sympathetic to the guys that want to hurt people that have killed your family. This is very puzzling. I don't understand this reaction at all! /s

Let's be honest here, that's fight against insurgents 101. Don't go around shooting everyone, you'll just create more insurgents... Unless your goal is to turn a whole population into insurgents and eradicate it, of course...

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ilimlidevrimci@reddit

Plain and simple, really. Just look at how "close" the US came close to killing of the Viet Cong. You can't kill off an entire nation. There are socialist guerillas fighting alongside Hamas, which technically belongs to an Islamofascist ideology. Priorities are priorities.

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LittleLionMan82@reddit

Aren't Israeli reservists also teachers, lecturers and doctors?

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TipiTapi@reddit

They wear uniforms.

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LittleLionMan82@reddit

I already addressed this and your fellow hasbarist deleted his comment in embarrassment.

You're late to the party.

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TipiTapi@reddit

I would 100% support killing the special forces who dressed as doctors on sight by any security personnel.

Do we agree that people dressed in civilian clothes who help the war effort are fair game?

The coward holds the revolt to a higher standard than the oppressor.

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Weirdyxxy@reddit

The coward holds the revolt to a higher standard than the oppressor

In other words: you are.

No, calling torture criminal is not an Israeli ploy, it's describing the obvious.

Israel holds 11000 Palestinians in prison on the basis of "military courts" which in real terms just means imprisonment without trial and torture and starve them in those military prisons.

Could I see statistics of deaths in Israeli prisons? I suspect you might be equivocating a lot on the term "to starve"

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p-4_@reddit

In 2000–2009, 6,700 Palestinians between the ages of 12 and 18 were arrested by the Israeli authorities, according to Defence for Children International's Palestine Section (DCI/PS). In 2009, a total of 423 were being held in Israeli detention and interrogation centers and prisons. In April 2010 the number dropped to 280. DCI/PS states that these detentions stand in contravention of international law.^([40]) Up to August 2013, 193 minors were imprisoned, and according to The Economist, "nearly all" were "brought to court in leg shackles and handcuffs."^([41])

Al Jazeera reported that between 2000-2023, 12,000 children have been detained by Israeli forces.^([42]) In 2023, at least 880 Palestinian children have been detained by the IDF.

A 2023 report by Save the Children found widespread use of physical, emotional, and sexual abuse against Palestinian children in Israeli military detention. The report found that among detained children, 86% were beaten, 69% were strip searched, 60% spent time in solitary confinement, 68% were denied any healthcare, and 58% were denied visits or communication with family.^([106])^([107])

Amnestry International reported the use of torture against Palestinian prisoners during the Gaza war, with at least four prisoners dying in Israeli custody since the war began.^([97])^([98])

"In other words: you are" ?? your retort is just "no you" ?

No comment from you about the Palestinians held in prisons by Israel without trial. which is just a longwinded way of saying they are held for hostage or intimidating the population. No word from your mouth. This is what I mean you are holding the revolt (Palestine) to a higher standard than the oppressor (Israel).

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Weirdyxxy@reddit

"In other words: you are" ?? your retort is just "no you" ?

No, my retort is "in other words: you are meaning to say what I hoped you weren't meaning to say". Not "no you", but "that's a yes"

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HowYouSeeMe@reddit

Correct, this is the only correct take here. The number of people that seem to think committing a war crime or being complicit in such immediately means you are no longer a civilian is ridiculous.

None of these idiots have even a basic understanding of the Geneva convention or international law.

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Nukes-For-Nimbys@reddit

In the legal sense, There are only combatants and non combatants. Military objects and non military objects.

The number of people that seem to think committing a war crime or being complicit in such immediately means you are no longer a civilian is ridiculous.

It absolutely could, ifyou engagement in military activities you are a combatant.

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HowYouSeeMe@reddit

The venn diagram of "actions that constitute a war crime" and "actions that constitute direct participation in hostilities" and "actions that make you a combatant" all overlap, but none sit fully within another.

Yeah, let's compare fascist talk, that'll be proof history started on Oct 7 or something...

Why did Netanyahu help Hamas back in the days then ?
What's the excuse for the West-Bank ?

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Address my point about Hamas instead of deflecting. Do you agree with me Hamas wants to steal the Israelis' country?

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redridingoops@reddit

Sure, as soon as you address Israel's entire criminal history, along with its help putting that very same Hamas in power despite their rhetoric not having changed.

If it was fine for Netanyahu before, why would it suddenly be an issue ?

Anybody would hate living next to Israelis, those people are racist occupiers first and professional victims second.

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Israel is their land? Since when? Seems a little supremacist so declare that someone else's country is really yours.

Do inbred settlers and Nazis without foreskin

Never beating those anti-Semitism allegations.

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redridingoops@reddit

Israel is their land? Since when?

Since before it was illegaly stolen from the locals by a bunch of terrorists, sorry, cOmManDoS.

Seems a little supremacist so declare that someone else's country is really yours.

Irony must have died like an "animal" somewhere in Gaza some time ago, under a very accurate bomb, no doubt.

Seems a little supremacist so declare that someone else's country is really yours.

Yeah, which is why we hear so many talks of greater Palestine in between two Palestinian annexation of Lebanese and Syrian land.

Only a bunch of chosen ones would be dumb enough to believe that kind of fable when the most modest historian dismisses it as bullshit.

Never beating those anti-Semitism allegations.

Jewish people deserve so much better than the hateful bunch of pricks Israel proposes, they represent US interest, nothing else.

Thing is even with the stolen land, Israel is nothing but an ok consequential city state propped up by US money and guns.

Better hope that unconditional and expensive support lasts forever 🙂

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Before it was Israel, it was part of the Ottoman empire. It wasn't Arab land.

Only a bunch of chosen ones

Never beating those anti-Semitism allegations.

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Funkywurm@reddit

Claiming Israel represents all Jews is antisemitic.

Enjoy dealing with your anti-Semitic allegations.

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Funkywurm@reddit

You are the worst debater

It was called Palestine. Christians, Jews and Muslims lived in peace amongst each other….before WWII

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Funkywurm@reddit

If you lived in a country militarily controlled by another would you want your occupiers to stay or go?

Would want the people who steal your land, to stay or go?

If you had a separate set of laws applied to you because of your ethnicity would want the occupiers who passed and who enforce those laws to stay or go?

What would do? Just sit back and take it or would you attempt to revolt?

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Funkywurm@reddit

We’ve already established that Hamas is not a rational thinking group. Hamas does not represent the best interests of Palestinians, nor do they represent all Palestinians. Using the terms Palestinian and Hamas interchangeably does nothing more than provide a pretext for murdering innocent Palestinians.

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kirosayshowdy@reddit

your parent reply was literally "what about Hamas"

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Pointing out a double standard isn't whataboutery.

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kirosayshowdy@reddit

"Whataboutism" or "whataboutery" (as in, "but what about X?") refers to the propaganda strategy of responding to an accusation with a counter-accusation [...]

which you did in the parent reply

[...] instead of offering an explanation or defense against the original accusation.

which you also did

The communication intent is often to distract from the content of a topic (red herring).

which you also also did

Common accusations include double standards [...].

which you did just now

— https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Whataboutism&oldid=1315674905

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thatwhileifound@reddit

Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

-Sartre

People like OP aren't worth engaging with. I get the urge though.

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PMmePowerRangerMemes@reddit

lmao really trying to have your cake and eat it too

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hardolaf@reddit

There. Is no double standard. Everyone agrees that Hamas are terrorists. You're the person disagreeing with the idea that the Israeli government are also terrorists.

These are not mutually exclusive positions that someone can hold.

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Funkywurm@reddit

Israel’s treatment of Palestinians over the last few decades is what created the conditions necessary for a radical-militant group such as Hamas to form.

Israel has all the power and they wield it in such a violent way that they should not be surprised when a radical-militant group such as Hamas attempts to fight back.

When you occupy another nation and create a system of apartheid, don’t be surprised when the occupied people become radical-militant and do terrible things.

Thought experiments, no need to respond:

If hamas ceased to exist, do you believe Israel would end its occupation of Palestine?

If Hamas ceased to exist, and Israel continued its occupation, what do think the effect will be on Palestinians?

Do you believe the occupied should simply submit to their occupiers; no resistance?

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john_cooltrain@reddit

Who said I’m pro hamas? I’m vehemently anti murdering kids no matter who’s the perpetrator.

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

I'm not pro kid murdering, that's a big reason why I'm not pro-Palestine.

So if Hamas is murdering kids in Palestine, what do you want to be done about it, since your'e so opposed to kid murder?

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john_cooltrain@reddit

But you’re pro-israel, and israel just murdered tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of people over the past couple of years.

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Israel has fought a war against Hamas, that's not murder. Can you answer my question now? If Hamas is murdering kids in Palestine, what do you want to be done about it, since your'e so opposed to kid murder?

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NewAccountEachYear@reddit

Israel has fought a war against Hamas, that's not murder

Lol you have to be paid but im wiling to bet you're this much a sad loser. Free palestine

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NewAccountEachYear@reddit

Well, I'm just stating. 7 october was an act of war, then there should be no murder since:

fought a war [...], that's not murder

Their comment and post history is hidden so they’re probably either a bot or being paid to do so. All the recent Zionist accounts on Reddit are doing this and there’s no reason to hide unless they want to conceal the fact that every single comment they make are pushing the same talking points

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rattleandhum@reddit

I'm not pro kid murdering, that's a big reason why I'm not pro-Palestine

I’m not gonna engage in your outrage theater, read my reply to another redditor with your equal reading comprehension. https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/4mrnuD0gjX

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secretly_a_zombie@reddit

You won't condemn people strapping explosives to kids?

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LuringTJHooker@reddit

No, I condemn the act, not the desperation that creates it. When an entire population is stripped of dignity, freedom, and hope, people stop seeing any path left but the returning the horrific violence in kind. You can recoil at the method, any normal human being would, but if you refuse to look at what drove them to that point, you’re not engaging with morality, you’re engaging with outrage theater.

The real obscenity isn’t just the act of sending a child to die, it’s the system the oppressors have created that makes them believe that such a sacrifice could bring freedom. When people are stripped of hope, dignity, and any peaceful means of change, even the unthinkable starts to feel like the only option. Condemning the act without condemning the conditions that led to them (decades of apartheid, genocide, massacres, ethnic cleansing, forced displacement, indiscriminate bombardment, food and medical aid blockades, targeted killings of civil servants doctors and journalists, starvation, torture, rape and sexual violence on prisoners, attacks on healthcare, the prevention births and natal care) is operating on moral convenience, not moral clarity.

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Rulweylan@reddit

Canada?

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Screye@reddit

It's a bit of both.

As things stand in 2025, it validates Israel's assumption that few Gazans want peace. It invalidates attempts at a limited war with Hamas, because the complete eradication of Hamas means annihilation of all Gazans, and that would be true genocide.

In practical terms, it means that an independently governed Gaza will need complete demilitarization of the strip and full border control by Israel. Or else, they won't agree to a deal.

It shows the need for a neutral 3rd party to govern Gaza until the average Gazan changes their stance from revenge to silent hatred. (That's the best we can expect given the scale of losses). Oct 8th and the subsequent war has damaged all hope for a comfortable peace.

I know Reddit hates the peace plan because Trump is involved, but it's the most achievable given the circumstances. It won't make anyone happy. But it's the only way we get lasting peace (however uncomfortable) in the region. Funnily, as much as Trump hates the UN and similar nonprofits, he chose the most UN-like solution possible.

(replying again with a flair)

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TheUnicornRevolution@reddit

I mean, only if it's true.

I'm not saying it isn't true. But the lies that have come out of the Israeli government and press leave me very unconvinced of anything they say, which is a pity.

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Nukes-For-Nimbys@reddit

This does match with one of the hostage rescue raids where they found them in a journalists house.

The worry is it becomes like press markings. Hamas recon guys frequently had press passes, blue vests the works. In response the IDF just started killing anyone presenting as a journalist.

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zootbot@reddit

Do you get what you’re saying.

lol do YOU get what they’re saying because you completely misrepresent what they said

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AMeasuredBerserker@reddit

So what are you saying?

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zootbot@reddit

if you are detaining hostages … a valid military target

This is true on its face and all the arguments thrown around in this sub about international law are pointless because every human on the face of the planet can correctly intuit that holding hostages (not POWs) is a hostile act

so all doctors are valid targets?

How you get from the first point to this is ridiculous mental gymnastics- he never implied anything like this

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BDOKlem@reddit

every human on the face of the planet can correctly intuit that holding hostages (not POWs) is a hostile act

taking a hostage is a hostile act. harboring a hostage does not have to be.

IHL is distinct on this, for good reason.

How you get from the first point to this is ridiculous mental gymnastics

the reason he went there is because the headline that was posted here propagates it.

there is no reason for Israeli media to bring it up in an article, other than to manufacture consent.

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zootbot@reddit

harboring a hostage does not have to be

What does this even mean? You’re at least complicit in an on going war crime. I can’t find anything where taking and harboring are discussed distinctly and “doesn’t have to be” is doing so much heavy lifting for you here. Can you describe to me when holding a hostage would and wouldn’t be accessory to the war crime of taking a hostage?

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BDOKlem@reddit

What does this even mean? You’re at least complicit in an on going war crime.

that's a moral argument, not a legal argument.

ICRC Interpretive Guidance on the Notion of Direct Participation in Hostilities (2009):
In order to reach the required threshold of harm, a specific act must be likely to adversely affect the military operations or military capacity of a party to an armed conflict or, alternatively, to inflict death, injury, or destruction on persons or objects protected against direct attack

Direct causation should be understood as meaning that the harm in question must be brought about in one causal step. therefore, individual conduct that merely builds up or maintains the capacity of a party to harm its adversary, or which otherwise only indirectly causes harm, is excluded from the concept of direct participation in hostilities.

tl;dr "one casual step" in this case means a civilian simply harboring (as in housing) a hostage is not a legal target.

the civilian has to be the one actively keeping the person imprisoned (and that's not even touching on things like coercion).

Please dont report on things I don’t like

okay, name me a more plausible reason for this specifically being brought up, other than to manufacture consent for the biggest, most morally condemnable mass killing spree of journalists and doctors in modern history.

I'll wait.

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zootbot@reddit

Do you realize that the document you cite isn’t IHL? Its ICRCs opinion and clearly states in the document it’s expressly not international law. So please let me know if you have IHL that discerns hostage taking and holding.

I don’t understand the question about why something is reported. It’s reported because it’s a material to the story. Civilians complicit in hostage taking would be a huge deal under literally any armed conflict.

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BDOKlem@reddit

not an "opinion", it's an elaborative interpretation of article 51(3).

ICRC interpretations are directly cited by the ICC, UN Commissions of Inquiry, and state military manuals.

Civilians complicit in hostage taking would be a huge deal under literally any armed conflict.

again conflating taking and harboring. hostage taking ≠ hostage harboring.

It’s reported because it’s a material to the story.

if they were armed and actively guarding hostages, that'd make them militia, not civilian, and their professions prior to joining Hamas entirely irrelevant to the hostages.

if they were bringing supplies or were there to medically supervise (no direct participation in hostilities), they were protected civilians and the article is nothing but a deliberate smear.

in either case it's not material to the story of the hostages.

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AMeasuredBerserker@reddit

Alright I think im just responding to a bot, but if all you are saying is those that took hostages should be targets, noone disagrees with that.

If you are using this to justify bombing schools and indiscriminate slaughter, no way.

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zootbot@reddit

if you’re using this to justify bombing schools

Stubbs94@reddit

Do you believe all members of the Gazan civil service are terrorists?

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

What's the Gaza civil service?

Do you agree with the link I posted?

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Stubbs94@reddit

Anyone who works within the civil service in Gaza, that was organized by the Hamas political wing. And I don't think your link means anything, or means these people who harboured the hostages are evil or deserve death.

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

No, I don't think everyone who works within the civil service is a terrorist.

It's a link to your fellow Hamas supporter arguing that everyone in Gaza supports and helps the resistance. Anything to say to them? Because they're literally making the position you strawmanned for me.

or means these people who harboured the hostages are evil or deserve death

No, I'm sure you don't think holding Israelis hostage and starving and torturing them is evil. Least surprising thing I've ever heard.

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Stubbs94@reddit

I think beating and starving people is wrong. I don't condone anyone who does that is good, and I condemn any sort of mistreatment of hostages . Do you condemn the Israeli military for doing the same to the hostages they took?

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Oh, so a person who holds hostages and beats and starves them isn't evil, but they aren't good either. It's a morally neutral act. Got it.

d I condemn any sort of mistreatment of hostages

Oh, so it's fine to hold hostages as long as they're not "mistreated." What a paragon of morality you are!

Do you condemn the Israeli military for doing the same to the hostages they took?

The Israeli military has never taken hostages but nice try with the "whatabout Israel."

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Stubbs94@reddit

There is no evidence other than this article that all of these people mentioned participated in any beatings. Also you know... Israel is solely responsible for any starvation in Gaza. The Israeli military took hundreds of innocent people from Gaza and the West Bank without any justification and held them in brutal conditions for months. But of course, you don't care about Israeli treatment of Palestinians. I never said it's fine to kidnap people either... But sure, I don't condemn the taking of active IDF militants as prisoners, that's not a crime if you want to say this was a war because you're a modern day Holocaust denier.

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

So a person who holds a hostage and then hands them over to other people to be beaten: good, evil, or neutral?

Also you know... Israel is solely responsible for any starvation in Gaza.

Yes, of course I know that. Gaza is in no way responsible for literally anything that happens in or to it. We all know this narrative by now. /s

But sure, I don't condemn the taking of active IDF militants as prisoners,

Which of the hostages were "active IDF militants"? Name them. Was Tal Shoham an active IDF militant?

It is a crime to take soldiers hostage, but I know you guys don't really care about the law when it's Palestine violating it.

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Stubbs94@reddit

There was an Israeli militant "kidnapped" from a tank. Using your logic, kidnapping active members of the Al-Aqsa brigade is also a crime.

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

One of them was a militant so the rest of them are fine? Isn't that collective punishment?

kidnapping active members of the Al-Aqsa brigade is also a crime.

USING THEM AS HOSTAGES IS A CRIME. Remember international law, the thing you guys pretend to care about but only when it comes to Israel?

"Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions prohibits the taking of hostages.[1] It is also prohibited by the Fourth Geneva Convention and is considered a grave breach thereof"

"The International Convention against the Taking of Hostages defines the offence as the seizure or detention of a person (the hostage), combined with threatening to kill, to injure or to continue to detain the hostage, in order to compel a third party to do or to abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the hostage."

You don't have to be a civilian to be a hostage.

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Stubbs94@reddit

You support collective punishment though? You never condemn Israel blocking international aid to Gaza. You support them kidnapping the Sumud flottila and torturing them. I have criticised what Hamas did.... You have never said "Israel is committing a war crime and collectively punishing the Palestinians in Gaza by blocking international aid". I do not support the torture of any Israeli POW or hostage. Do you condemn the torture of Palestinian prisoners?

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Wow, got deflections? Observe the intellectual honesty of the Hamas supporters.

I have criticised what Hamas did

Nah, bro, you defended it. You said it's not evil to hold hostages and then you lied and said the hostages were active IDF militants when the vast majority of them weren't. You're carrying water for Hamas like it's your job.

Can you address my point about how hostage taking is a crime and a violation of international law even if it's soldiers being taken? Or are you just going to ignore it in the hopes I'll forget about it?

"Article 1 of the Convention defines a hostage-taker as: “Any person who seizes or detains and threatens to kill, to injure or to continue to detain another person (hereinafter referred to as the “hostage”) in order to compel a third party, namely, a State, an international intergovernmental organization, a natural or juridical person, or a group of persons, to do or to abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the hostage, commits the offence of taking hostages (“hostage-taking”) within the meaning of this Convention."

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Stubbs94@reddit

Okay, I agree, they are hostages... Do you agree that blocking aid from Gaza is collective punishment? Do you agree that Israeli torture of Palestinians the abduct is a crime? Because you seem to have supported the blocking of aid multiple times. I have stated clearly I don't support torture of Israelis held by the Palestinian resistance, nor the abducting of Israelis.

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Do you agree that blocking aid from Gaza is collective punishment?

No, it's not. When countries are put under siege, that's not collective punishment. When Britain stopped Nazi Germany from getting aid, that wasn't collective punishment.

Again, you clearly don't know much about international law, but collective punishment is done to individuals, it does not apply at a national level.

Do you agree that Israeli torture of Palestinians the abduct is a crime?

If torture of Palestinians were to happen, that would be a crime.

Now that the whatabout Israel is out of the way, I'm glad we agree that these people holding the hostage are criminals.

I have stated clearly I don't support torture of Israelis held by the Palestinian resistance, nor the abducting of Israelis.

You literally just said it's not evil to hold hostages. Are you walking that back?

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apophis-pegasus@reddit

No, it's not. When countries are put under siege, that's not collective punishment. When Britain stopped Nazi Germany from getting aid, that wasn't collective punishment.

Denial of humanitarian access is prohibited.

Actions taken even by the allies in WW2 would in several cases no longer be allowed, or only allowed in extremis.

Again, you clearly don't know much about international law, but collective punishment is done to individuals, it does not apply at a national level.

And collective punishment is done to individuals - as a group.

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Denial of humanitarian access is prohibited.

Not true. There are circumstances where it's allowed to cut off humanitarian access.

“Relief consignments shall be facilitated… but may be subject to temporary and exceptional measures dictated by imperative military necessity.” — Protocol I, Article 70(3)

And collective punishment is done to individuals - as a group.

But not at a national level, like I said.

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apophis-pegasus@reddit

“Relief consignments shall be facilitated… but may be subject to temporary and exceptional measures dictated by imperative military necessity.” — Protocol I, Article 70(3)

I'm seeing from here:

The Parties to the conflict and each High Contracting Party which allow the passage of relief consignments, equipment and personnel in accordance with paragraph 2: (a) shall have the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; (b) may make such permission conditional on the distribution of this assistance being made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power; (c) shall, in no way whatsoever, divert relief consignments from the purpose for which they are intended nor delay their forwarding, except in cases of urgent necessity in the interest of the civilian population concerned.

Which does not seem to have occured

But not at a national level, like I said.

A nation is a group. And actions in Gaza are definitively not on a national level.

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

What actions done at a national level have been considered collective punishment, for any nation other than Palestine?

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apophis-pegasus@reddit

Again, Gaza isn't at the national level. It's a specific population group.

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Gaza's not a state-like entity? It's just a group of people? Give me a break, dude, and just answer the question.

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apophis-pegasus@reddit

"State like entity" can literally refer to any area being held by an insurgent group for a length of time.

The UN has never been the only institutional authority for these things. So, just to be clear:

If a blockade/restriction of resources occurs indiscriminately, as long as its on a national level, its not collective punishment.
If the entity in question even looks like a state kinda, its also not collective punishment
The UN is somehow the only entity able to assess collective punishment?
If its not a village, or some small group it doesnt count as collective punishment.

Link

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LtOin@reddit

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/oct/15/palestinian-bodies-returned-by-israel-show-signs-of-torture-and-execution-say-doctors

Torture and execution!

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

"says medic at Nasser hospital in Gaza"

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LtOin@reddit

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-man-reunited-with-family-after-being-told-israeli-jail-they-were-dead-2025-10-15/

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Stubbs94@reddit

Yes, I'm aware of the blockades both sides implemented in ww1. The blocking of international aid is different when you're occupying a fucking nation, Jesus Christ. And punishing the entire population is by definition collective punishment regardless, I would say intentionally trying to starve civilians is pretty fucked. Would you agree Israel intentionally trying to starve Palestinian civilians by blocking the international aid community is pretty fucked up?

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Why is it different? The British were preventing German civilians from getting food, why isn't that collective punishment?

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Stubbs94@reddit

The British were blockading the German ability to trade... Israel is blocking the international community from providing life-saving aid to the Palestinians. There is no comparison, although you are acting like there is a moral argument to intentionally starving children to death.

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

I'm honestly surprised that no Zionist has yet used the Siege of Gaza in 332 BC (BEFORE FUCKING CHRIST) to justify waging total war against the modern population of mainly children.

Labelling you u/Stubbs94 and I'm sure me "Hamas supporters" is classic slander to deflect from all this, of course.

Weird that the supremacist u/McAlpineFusiliers hides behind an Irish song name, btw.

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BabylonianWeeb@reddit

Hi, I have noticed that your account is shadow banned by the Reddit admin team. Any comments or post you will make wouldn't appear to other users unless they get approved by a moderator.

https://www.reddit.com/appeals

This link above is the only way to remove your shadow ban and restore your account. If your account isn't shadow banned, it will tell you so. If you have a shadow ban or suspension, it will give you the option to message the admins to make an appeal. I have seen many users successfully restore their accounts this way, sometimes within a day or two. It's basically your way of signaling to the Reddit admin team that you are a real person, not a bot nor a spammer, and that you have good intentions as a user on their website.

Every accusation an admission, your intellectual frailty and moral bankruptcy on broad display. This "wHaTaBoUt HaMaS" deflection is literally the only defense you have of what is clearly, unequivocally, a brutal and one-sided genocide of innocent people.

You do not believe in anything.

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teslawhaleshark@reddit

"every non-jihadist teacher is more dangerous than Maskhadov of Chechnya"

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Scientific_Socialist@reddit

You can tell who the shills are bc they always hide their comment and post history

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thrice_twice_once@reddit

People like OP already think all doctors, civil servants, school teachers, nurses, aid workers etc. are valid targets in Gaza. Nothing will change unfortunately.

100%.

I'll just add that it's not only Palestinians.

There is a reason Israel has things like the Canary Mission. They target our kids here in the west, which they claim to be an ally of, for our kids daring to critique Israel as is their right.

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redridingoops@reddit

This was already used as past justification, what makes you think Israel will suddenly stop lying or stealing land ?

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860v2@reddit

Based on the hostages’ experiences, it looks like Israel was right. It’s not just Hamas.

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DayThen6150@reddit

Hey just an aside when are guys voting to unify Ireland? Or is it that the north is too poor and relies on UK subsidies ? Anyway, enjoy your Guinness breakfast.

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Stubbs94@reddit

What a weird, unrelated comment. Wtf is a Guinness breakfast?

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namikazeiyfe@reddit

I really hope this is seen as just how popular resistance to Israel is

So are you admit that a lot of Palestinians were indeed complict in holding some hostages and being actual terrorist supporters as earlier alleged by Israel, an act that would make them valid targets?

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AMeasuredBerserker@reddit

A lot? Where's the evidence for that? We have 3 people identified here.

The whole way this works is by targeting those with just cause, not the systematic eradication of whole groups of people.

Does 1 doctor breaking the law mean the complete wholesale abandonment of the doctoring professsion?

Proportionality.

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madhatta42@reddit

Either Hamas is a terrorist organization that doesn’t represent the population of Gaza as a whole, or they are a popular resistance movement that is aided by they populace.

You can’t have it both ways.

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zootbot@reddit

No I think you can have it both ways

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madhatta42@reddit

Elaborate?

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zootbot@reddit

So popular movements don’t necessarily reflect or have support of the majority of a population just some subset. Like if right now 40% of Gazans (I’m making number up only for sake of the point) support Hamas so far as to be willing to hold hostages that would be a popular resistance movement while still representing a minority of the population.

Like Americas war for independence I believe also fell into this similar situation.

Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

Do you expect oppressed people to like their oppressor?

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Instabanous@reddit

I dont understand the relevance of the question?

Generally no, but when you mix in religion, politics, a healthy dose of 'othering' and brainwashing, it becomes highly nuanced.

Like I say, Hamas poll fairly well and do seem to have support among a proportion of Gazans.

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

Like I say, Hamas poll fairly well and do seem to have support among a proportion of Gazans.

Did you know that the parents and grandparents of some Gazans were ethically cleansed from their homes and villages by foreigners?

Did you know that Palestinians in Gaza have been living in a literal concentration camp under brutal illegal occupation for decades being denied the right to develop their infrastructure etc?

Did you know that there were times before 7/10 when Israel allowed only the amount of food required to keep Gazans alive?

Did you know that Israel routinely attaked Gaza before 7/10 in what is termed Mowing the grass. During such attacks, Israel systematically targeted Palestinian civilians and the civilian infrastructure of the Gaza Strip (dahiya doctrine)?

Did you know that the blockade + the Israeli wars on Gaza killed Gaza economy that most of the population are poor and depending on aid?

Did you know IDF shot life ammunition killing and maiming peaceful Gazan protestors in the march of return?

Etc

So no, it is not religion. It is not brainwashing. It is just brutal oppression and oppressed people hate their oppressers.

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Instabanous@reddit

No, I did not know those things because a lot of them I suspect are completely untrue.

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

You can google:

Nakba

Jabalia refugee camp: The largest refugee camp in Palestine is located in Gaza and was founded in 1948 by the United Nations to house those ethnically cleansed by the Zionist army. The camp had 100,000 inhabitants before the genocide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabalia_refugee_camp

Gaza open air prison (euphemism for camp)

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15

Grass mowing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowing_the_grass

Dahiya doctrine: "an Israeli military strategy involving the large-scale destruction of civilian infrastructure, or domicide, to pressure hostile governments."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

UN report: 80% of Gaza inhabitants relied on international aid before 2023 war

Israel’s blockade hollowed out Gaza’s economy and left 80% of its inhabitants dependent on international aid even before the current crisis erupted, the UN has said.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-per-cent-of-gaza-inhabitants-relied-on-international-aid-before-war

"Israel is carrying out a murderous assault against protesting Palestinians, with its armed forces killing and maiming demonstrators who pose no imminent threat to them, Amnesty International revealed today, based on its latest research, as the “Great March of Return” protests continued in the Gaza Strip.

The Israeli military has killed 35 Palestinians and injured more than 5,500 others – some with what appear to be inflicted life-changing injuries – during the weekly Friday protests that began on 30 March."

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/04/israel-arms-embargo-needed-as-military-unlawfully-kills-and-maims-gaza-protesters/

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Instabanous@reddit

Good grief that's a bit weird. Obviously we can all find links on the Internet to support our point of view on any given topic.

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youireby@reddit

linked information is from Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, United Nations .

Wakeup! Sheesh…

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

😂😂😂😂

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

The internet is free!

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

Like I say, Hamas poll fairly well and do seem to have support among a proportion of Gazans.

Did you know that the parents and grandparents of some Gazans were ethically cleansed from their homes and villages by foreigners?

Did you know that Palestinians in Gaza have been living in a literal concentration camp under brutal illegal occupation for decades being denied the right to develop their infrastructure etc?

Did you know that there were times before 7/10 when Israel allowed only the amount of food required to keep Gazans alive?

Did you know that Israel routinely attaked Gaza before 7/10 in what is termed Mowing the grass. During such attacks, Israel targeted Palestinian militants, Palestinian civilians, and the civilian infrastructure of the Gaza Strip?

Did you know that the blockade + the Israeli wars on Gaza killed Gaza economy that most of the population are poor and depending on aid?

Etc

So no, it is not religion and it is not brainwashing.

It is just brutal oppression.

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KaiBahamut@reddit

Not lying, but you have remember that Gaza isn't a democracy. It could be 'keep this hostage here or we'll shoot you next'. In most dictatorships, you say you support the dictators or you catch a beating or worse.

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Instabanous@reddit

Well I agree with you there, vile dictatorship, however like I say they poll fairly well.

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UOLZEPHYR@reddit

I saw a picture off FB (take some salt ofc) that several of the 60 or 90 Palestinians return were still bound, mutilated and had tank tracks on the body from being run over.

Again need salt - but this is why we need free press and UN inspectors involved. If Palestinians/Hamas or Israelis either are committing acts against humanity, war crimes torture etc they should be arrested tried and convicted

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Most humane army on Earth according to themselves.

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UltraHawk_DnB@reddit

Oh some of them are also missing limbs and eyes. Clearly tortured

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Disinformation_Bot@reddit

This is the condition of far more than 90 bodies that have been found. Gaza is littered with mass graves of people with their hands tied, driven over, and buried by a bulldozer.

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IlluminatedPickle@reddit

They're talking about bodies returned by Israel to Palestine in the deal.

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NSawsome@reddit

Don’t forget the right to rape protests

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malakambla@reddit

I saw a picture off FB (take some salt ofc) that several of the 60 or 90 Palestinians return were still bound, mutilated and had tank tracks on the body from being run over.

That has been reported by multiple outlets so you're good on that front. Some of the Palestinians have clear signs of being executed according to gazan doctors.

Everyone has agreed that it is genocide. If Israel stops now, we will learn more about what percentage of people were killed. But the casualties was at least 10%. You are not going to tell me getting injured from bombs dropped by scum terrorists is okay, are you?

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jdorm111@reddit

Sure, if you say so man. Surely Hamas has undercounted severly, despite there only being around 10.000 missing and Hamas having a clear strategical incentive to bolster their casualty claim.

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platp@reddit

Hamas has stayed disciplined and only reported the confirmed direct killings. Their data is very valuable but they can't report the not yet found mass graves and abducted corpses of the massacred. They can't report the killings happening in Israeli torture centers. And they didn't count and report all the deaths because Israel destroyed the medical and civilian infrastructure.

The truth is coming. And it will cost the Israeli terror regime a lot. They have dug their own grave. And humanity will bury the regime for what they did.

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jdorm111@reddit

You're just assuming those mass graves are there and that they were the result of Israeli actions. I don't do that. We've seen in the last few days Hamas has no qualms about slaughtering their own people at all.

The truth will indeed be coming. And it won't be like you say. In all probability the 1.5 / 2 civilian per combatant ratio will be correct, with many civilians having been killed by failed hamas / pij rockets (al shifa hospital case), summary executions and even naturally deceased people having been added to the list - as they have been proven to do, when sometime in 2024, they quietly revised the deathtoll down.

Keep combatting that cognitive dissonance.

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platp@reddit

Your comment hardly makes any sense. Maybe you are just ignorant to the mass graves and hidden killed people Israel buried before. Do you not know about the 3 mass graves found and Al Shifa Hospital grounds after Israel retreated from there first or second time, (I don't remember)? Do you not know about the ambulance convoy they killed in cold blood and buried their corpses in the ground? Why do you think all the mass graves must have been found?

And why did you not address the non direct killings? Why did you even bring up Israeli proxies getting what they ahd coming now?

And you are so weak in all this, that was Al Ahli Hospital next to which Israel killed over 400 people in a single strike and then went on a PR campaign with genocide media to cover it up. They tried kill Palestinians very fast and saw that it won't be tolerated and they (Israeli regime) will be gone even faster.

The end is coming for Israel. Humanity will take this win against colonists of almost a century that never stopped colonizing the land, terrorizing and oppressing the people.

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jdorm111@reddit

Can you show me the proof they were the result of israeli executions and not ny Hamas or the casualties of war?

Israel is stronger than ever, lmao. You're not going to see it end in your lifetime.

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

You wouldn't accept proof anyway.

Yeah, I don't get paid to post on Reddit.

Got me good though, Hasbarabot.

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Own_Thing_4364@reddit

Could have fooled me. The only way to post shit as stupid as yours would require payment.

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Zorboids@reddit

$7k, supporting a genocidal, apartheid regime is very lucrative.

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Instabanous@reddit

Resistance to Israel? An innocent guy was taken hostage and held for years, you should be ashamed of yourself for framing it that way.

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AMeasuredBerserker@reddit

Ok, so how are you seeing it? Bravo Israel for potentially killing their own hostages by targeting civilian institutions?

Let's just murder every single Palestinian and let God decide?

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Instabanous@reddit

I think the guy is telling the truth. I think intelligence services are telling the truth when they find the indoctrination happening in Gaza from (Aid funded) nursery school onwards. I think the recordings and live streams of families celebrating Oct 7th were real- large swathes of the population in Gaza appear to support terrorism including rape and child killing.

In terms of civilian institutions, we know that Hamas use the population as human shields. We know they spent aid money that could have built a wealthy utopia on tunnels and weaponry.

Civilians die during wars, its very sad (the ones who didnt support Hamas) but its up to their leaders to not start unwinnable wars and then give any hostages back straightaway to avoid death and destruction.

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4edgy8me@reddit

Indoctrination into what? Legal and legitimate resistance against an occupation? Lmao

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Instabanous@reddit

What a shame that isn't the indoctrination! They've had so much aid money, it could be a wonderful place if they would take a legal, legitimate route to live side by side with other cultures and religions. Instead they continually choose to burn everything.

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porkycornholio@reddit

It does somewhat validate the argument that schools and hospitals were valid military targets

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HowYouSeeMe@reddit

If your aim is to kill the hostages I suppose.

Which apparently, it is... https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/3-hostages-killed-in-gaza-by-israeli-troops-were-shirtless-and-waving-a-white-flag-official-says

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Short-Recording587@reddit

Your suggestion is that every incidence of friendly fire (which happens in every conflict) is intentional?

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HowYouSeeMe@reddit

Your suggestion is that every conflict has instances of snipers knowingly shooting half naked civilians of their own side who were waving white flags, then chasing another half naked civilian of their own side into a house, forcing them out from under a stairway and shooting them point blank?

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Short-Recording587@reddit

Do you think terrorists play by the rules or something? Let’s say a plane is flying low toward manhattan and the pilot on the radio is saying “I’m a friendly don’t shoot me down” what do you think might happen?

Do you think there is an instance where a terrorist pretended to give up and wave the white flag for a group nearby to ambush them while the troops are caught off guard?

The worst thing about war, about any conflict, is that innocent people are the ones who suffer. Friendly fire always happens. That’s why the best course is for the violent conflict to not happen in the first place. Talk it out in courts, at the UN, wherever. Just don’t go shoot a bunch of innocent people.

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IlluminatedPickle@reddit

In what way was this not intentional? They even lured the last guy out and then shot him.

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porkycornholio@reddit

Yeah I mean that’s a valid counter argument to any sort of attack on supposed Hamas targets. The example doesn’t really seem relevant though as that’s just a case of being overly trigger happy and disregard for civilians whereas the gist here is about how non-military-targets can become valid targets due to cases like teachers and doctors working with Hamas.

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Firecracker048@reddit

not as an excuse to widen the list of acceptable targets, if that even exists anymore.

I got some bad news for you, if your holding a hostage, you are no longer a civilian

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HowYouSeeMe@reddit

I got some bad news for you, if your holding a hostage, you are no longer a civilian

Incorrect. This might be an illegal act, but it does not strip you of your legal status as a civilian under the Geneva convention. You can't just declare anyone who does something you don't like as no longer a civilian and then shoot them (well actually apparently you can, but that's not in accordance with international law).

Under the Geneva convention a civilian is any person who does not belong to one of the categories of persons referred to in Article 4A(1), (2), (3) and (6) of the Third Convention and in Article 43 of Protocol I. None of these categories include "doctor who has a hostage in their custody".

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SymphoDeProggy@reddit

anyone who does something you don't like

what a strange framing, holding a hostage for hamas easily clears the bar for a continuous combat function.

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HowYouSeeMe@reddit

In practice, if they are simply harbouring a hostage then they likely remain protected as a civilian and cannot lawfully be targeted.

If they were actively guarding the hostage as part of hostilities that would pass the test for directly participating in hostilities and they could legally be targeted, but crucially, they remain a civilian although some protections are lifted.

It's a very complex area though, framing it as "easily clearing the bar" is... rather a simplification.

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SymphoDeProggy@reddit

i'd say calling holding a hostage for an armed force is merely "something you don't like" is rather a simplification.

holding a hostage for an armed force is participation in hostilities - specifically hostage taking - which waives their protection.

the difference between guarding or merely holding is not relevant to whether they are targetable, but to whether they are combatants. they're still targetable while holding a hostage regardless of their designation.

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HowYouSeeMe@reddit

holding a hostage for an armed force is participation in hostilities

It's not though.

Direct participation is not every harmful or unlawful act. It’s acts that meet a three-part test emphasized in the ICRC’s Interpretive Guidance:

-Threshold of harm: the act is likely to cause real harm to the enemy’s military operations or personnel (not mere criminal wrongdoing).

-Direct causation: the act is directly linked to the harm (a direct causal relationship).

-Belligerent nexus: the act is specifically designed to support one party’s military action (it has a clear link to the armed conflict).

Belligerent nexus is easy enough to demonstrate, the other two are very dependent on the circumstances of the case. Simply harbouring a hostage but is not doing anything that qualifies as DPH (e.g., they are not guarding the hostage as part of continuing hostile operations, not facilitating capture of soldiers, not directing military actions), then they remain protected and cannot lawfully be targeted; lethal force against them would likely be unlawful and could amount to a war crime.

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SymphoDeProggy@reddit

it's not mere criminal wrongdoing, Hams holding hostage is very clearly intended to hamper enemy operations and compels compliance with strategic demands. holding hostages facilitates this harm.

you are for some reason intentionally interpreting "harboring" in the most passive sense possible of simply being an inert bystander. a person harboring a hostage is also monitoring them and deterring their escape. they do not need to be armed to be actively participating in guarding a hostage. the only nuance here would be if they are themselves under duress, but in that case they are not "harboring" a hostage in the first place as the term implicitly assumes agency and willful application of coercive control.

merely continuing to detain a hostage clears the threshold. if you are knowingly and intentionally coercing their compliance, you are guarding them.

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HowYouSeeMe@reddit

I appreciate your honest engagement with the discussion.

My responses initially were mostly to other comments uncritically claiming that holding a hostage immediately renders you no longer a civilian. When clearly the legal position is not that straightforward, and I appreciate you actually engaging with it.

Your claim that "a person harboring a hostage is also monitoring them and deterring their escape" is not necessarily true, and really that's the crux of the situation. For these individuals to qualify as combatants, they need to pass the DPH test, so you need to show an action they have taken (not simply an inaction or failure to act), which has directly (not indirectly!) caused harm to Israeli military operations or military personnel.

Whilst their actions are undoubtedly war crimes and the holding of any civilian hostages is deplorable, simply allowing Hamas to house a hostage in your home, whilst a crime, is not likely to pass the DPH test and does not automatically equate to actively guarding said hostage.

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howmanyones@reddit

Thank you for articulating your point so well...it's so strange seeing the over-complicating of something that should be straight-forward. These people held hostages in their civilian homes. They are not bystanders.

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SymphoDeProggy@reddit

tbf intl law is far from straight forward, often for good reasons.

but no they are most certainly not bystanders.

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Jumbo-box@reddit

Hamas PRISONERS are soldiers of a hostile and occupying force.

They're prisoners of war, nothing else.

Palestinian civilians who are abducted by armed terrorists all of the time cosplaying as soldiers.

These people are hostages.

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HowYouSeeMe@reddit

They're prisoners of war, nothing else.

I mean... no. Hamas has indisputably taken civilian hostages, civilians can never be prisoners of war.

Israel had also indisputably taken civilian hostages as well as PoWs, and mistreated them both.

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HockeyHocki@reddit

Geneva conventions clearly state civilians lose their protection from attack if they take direct part in hostile activity

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HowYouSeeMe@reddit

Correct, although they still remain classified as civilians. For the duration of the act, they could be targeted, and colloquially they'd be called an "illegal combatant", but per Geneva convention they are still regionally a civilian throughout.

Whether simply harbouring a hostage passes the bar for direct participation in hostilities depends on the circumstances of the case, but generally would not unless they are actively guarding the hostage. Obviously it is indisputably a crime, though.

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HockeyHocki@reddit

somebody clearly didn't read the article

One of the guards was a first-grade teacher, another was a lecturer at a university, and another was a doctor

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HowYouSeeMe@reddit

Ah yes, I forgot that Times of Isreal is the undisputed arbitrator of what qualifies as directly participating in hostilities and a throwaway allegation of "guarding" within one of their articles is sufficient evidence to justify classification of a civilian as committing DPH.

Not sure why we bother with judges and international courts and lawyers when we could all just read Times of Isreal.

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HockeyHocki@reddit

Times have no track record of lying, don't see what motivation a hostage 2 years in captivity would have either, and you don't need to be a lawyer or judge to recognise what a guard is

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Short-Recording587@reddit

“If a civilian directly participates in hostilities, they become a combatant and a legitimate target, but must still be treated humanely if captured”

Serving as a guard over POWs (or in the case of civilians, protected persons) certainly is a fair argument that the person is directly participating in hostilities. I think it’s arguable.

I hope it is very clear for everybody now that the list of acceptable targets for Israel this whole time has been "anyone within the bounds of the Gaza strip."

The shot their own naked people waving a white flag and speaking Hebrew.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/3-hostages-killed-in-gaza-by-israeli-troops-were-shirtless-and-waving-a-white-flag-official-says

They brought in a racist biker gang to provide aid to Palestinians, these people would actively shoot and kill the Palestinians coming for aid just for fun.

https://youtu.be/uKpkZNAFwkc?si=zHlNJGtLPWB9c66l

And of course they purposely killed those western aid workers as well. The list goes on and on.

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Short-Recording587@reddit

I think it’s more likely that the events you brought up are attributable to incompetence than malice. If it were malice, then the death rate would be significantly higher and incomparable to the current situation.

How would possibly not to the latter?

Any Israeli knows the former already. The latter is always unclear

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Daerun@reddit

The name of the web probably tells a lot about the motive behind this article.

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Screye@reddit

It's a bit of both.

Article 51(3) of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions (1977):

Civilians lose protection only while they directly participate in hostilities. Harboring a hostage is directly participating in hostilities.

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braiam@reddit

No, harboring hostages is being human. Hostilities is literally shooting:

Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

What weapons were they holding? SHOW THE WEAPONS.

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RaiJolt2@reddit

Wait, kidnapping people is “being human”. And is not a hostility.

I mean even if I granted they were hostages, I’d expect you’d think that means it’s ok to retaliate against them. But they were in military detention, they weren’t being held by doctors, teachers, or reporters.

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Gunnarz699@reddit

But they were in military detention, they weren’t being held by doctors, teachers, or reporters.

My bad the kidnappers were state funded. That makes it okay?

I’d expect you’d think that means it’s ok to retaliate against them.

Taking hostages is never acceptable. Hamas shouldn't have taken civilians.

That being said I understand why they did it. If my family was kidnapped by a state who routinely tortured civilians, you bet your ass I'll be the first one lining up to paraglide over that wall. Israel is responsible for creating the situation that led to them making that decision in the first place.

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ampersand355@reddit

And if you were to do so you'd be a valid military target. Pretty stupid cycle.

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zootbot@reddit

Civilians can’t be POWs - they’re hostages

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Gunnarz699@reddit

So the Palestinians in "administrative detention" are also hostages right?

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Please show where harboring hostages is protected under the Geneva convention.

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platp@reddit

Does Geneva convention address what is allowed or what is not allowed? You need to show where it is a direct participation in hostilities because there is clauses explaining what direct participation means and it definitely doesn't include looking after hostages or prisoners of war.

You are probably confused with all the war crime backing of the genocide media (western big media). You probably think since they think any resistance by Palestinians be it armed or unarmed resistance makes them targets. Since one would assume they wouldn't so brazenly advocate for war crimes. But they do. That assumption is false. They are criminals for advocating for and white washing war crimes.

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IntrepidAd2478@reddit

It is called violating the laws of armed conflict.

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Oh yeah, let's discuss genocide from a balanced point of view. That sounds like a great idea...

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IntrepidAd2478@reddit

How about from a legal and factual point of view rather than ideological?

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Jotun35@reddit

You mean that point of view?
https://genocidescholars.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/08/IAGS-Resolution-on-Gaza-FINAL.pdf

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Jotun35@reddit

So, the point of view of the IDF is not biased and factual?

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Zipz@reddit

Deflecting……

Did you look up the organization yet?

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Jotun35@reddit

A scholar organization (mostly but not only) with the current president publishing well cited papers in peer review journals. What's your problem with it exactly (besides obviously not liking what they say)?

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Zipz@reddit

“A scholar organization”

That anyone could join if they spend a few hundred dollars

And that they voted on this

Clearly you didn’t do enough research

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Jotun35@reddit

Should we talk about the report of the COI then? Would that one be more to your liking?

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session60/advance-version/a-hrc-60-crp-3.pdf

Or do you want the view of MSF (hardly a partisan organization)? https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/doctors-cant-stop-genocide-world-leaders-can

Or maybe you want the opinion of a few legal experts?

https://www.lto.de/recht/hintergruende/h/gaza-is-israel-committing-genocide-assessments-international-law-experts

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Zipz@reddit

One thing at a time

You do realize how ridiculous what you posted was right?

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Jotun35@reddit

How? Argument, man!

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Zipz@reddit

You posted a club with open ownership ….

Who voted on a resolution

As evidence

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Jotun35@reddit

Yes and? A drop in the bucket of the many evidence. Feel free to provide your own factual and non ideological evidence. Good luck with that.

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Zipz@reddit

Yes and ?

Really ?

You posted a joke org padded it off as legit and then ignored it when I pointed out how ridiculous it was ?

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Jotun35@reddit

Feel free to dwell on the legitimacy of one evidence amongst many. Again, that's not the only organization with this position and there is a large corpus of expert opinions going in this direction (and even those that wouldn't qualify it as genocide would still qualify it as crime against humanity and war crimes at the very least).

A ton of shitty evidence is still better than no evidence at all (basically what you have provided so far).

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Tangata_Tunguska@reddit

Maybe it’s just nostalgia, but I remember this subreddit being a fairly balanced place to discuss international news.

It wasn't even that long ago. A few years?

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Nileghi@reddit

You should study the Northern Irish conflict.

killed less people than Hamas killed in a single day.

If the Irish had gone "We need to slaughter every single brit, and torture their families to death" you bet your ass I'd be supporting the brits in the conflict.

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CastleElsinore@reddit

Providing money doesn't make you a terrorist.

Directly holding hostages makes you a terrorist.

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BDOKlem@reddit

false; this is a structurally false premise.

You're describing the Terrorist state known as Israel. They seem to be doing the exact same thing you commented on West Bank.

Perhaps, the Western Leaders should put Terrorist tag on Israel....Wait, they won't cause it serves their colonial and personal interest. Almost like that word itself has lost its meaning due to how Western leaders use it.

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CastleElsinore@reddit

Nah, the Palestinians are the ones blowing up busses, strangling toddlers, and shooting up music festivals

I'd say the label is just fine

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tommytwolegs@reddit

I don't get why everyone has to take a side. Both sides can suck to different degrees. Israel has definitely engaged in terrorist actions under your own chosen definition

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BDOKlem@reddit

do you pro-Israel folks really only resort to rhetoric when you argue?

'terrorism' and 'terror' are not the same thin, that's an equivocation fallacy. making someone afraid doesn't make you a terrorist.

'terrorist' is a legal-political label, and a 'terrorist-designation' is something exclusively given by Western hegemonic powers.

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zZCycoZz@reddit

Israelis have a long history of being dishonest to paint themselves as victims. Dont be surprised when people dont believe them.

We also have evidence of palestinians being abused, to the point the head of shin bet admitted they were commiting war crimes.

Prisoners said they were subjected to regular severe, arbitrary violence, including sexual assault. None of the prisoners interviewed by the Guardian left detention without experiencing or witnessing some form of attack. Other abuse and humiliation was constant, from starvation rations to denial of access to basic hygiene supplies including sanitary pads for women, soap, towels, clothes and clean water for drinking and showers.

B’Tselem’s descriptions of systemic abuse echo those raised in private by an unlikely ally: the domestic intelligence service. In June the Shin Bet head, Ronen Bar, warned prison officials of a “crisis” that threatened national security. In a leaked letter he says Israel is vulnerable in international courts to “well-founded” claims of committing the war crime of inhumane treatment and violating the convention against torture.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/05/torture-abuse-and-humiliation-palestinians-on-israeli-prison-hell

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Zipz@reddit

Palestinians have a long history of being dishonest to paint themselves as victims.

We also have evidence of isrealis being abused in captivity

But let’s ignore that all right ?

You just proved me right

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CastleElsinore@reddit

Its called being a "crybully"

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zZCycoZz@reddit

Palestinians have a long history of being dishonest to paint themselves as victims.

Just repeating every accusation isnt a good tactic, and you guys have been doing it for years.

We also have evidence of isrealis being abused in captivity

We have evidence that abuse is standard practice for prisoners in israel.

You just proved me right

No, i didnt. Gaslighting isnt a good tactic either.

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Zipz@reddit

So yes you will ignore isrealis abused in captivity and their story

Thanks for confirming

That’s makes you a bad person

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zZCycoZz@reddit

So yes you will platform any israeli who suffered hardship while ignoring the much much larger number of palestinians who were intentionally abused so you can justify their genocide.

Your double standarda make you a bad person.

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Zipz@reddit

I have plenty of issue when Palestinians are abused

Swing and a miss

You’re the one justifying and calling isreali hostages all liars

Thanks for proving my point again

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zZCycoZz@reddit

Well the hostages in this case are liars, as shown in the first few lines.

Ex-captive Tal Shoham, who was held alongside Guy Gilboa-Dalal, recalls how they were ‘intentionally starved’ by Hamas, while his father says he hopes his son ‘won’t be so harmed that he cannot rebuild his life’

They were "intentionally starved" by israel who refused to allow aid in.

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Zipz@reddit

Other hostages have come out and said Hamas had food and refused to give it to them

But let’s ignore that right ?

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zZCycoZz@reddit

And we've determined that their word is worthless, theyll say what theyre told to say.

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Zipz@reddit

Perfect all isrealis are liars according to you no matter what

It’s sad how hard you are bending backwards to defend Hamas’s war crimes

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zZCycoZz@reddit

Perfect all isrealis are liars according to you no matter what

If it talks like a duck and walks like a duck... theyre all brainwashed so im not surprised when they lie.

It’s sad how hard you are bending backwards to defend Hamas’s war crimes

And you are supporting genocide, not sure how youre justifying that to yourself.

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big_cock_lach@reddit

He claimed to be starved while sharing 200-300kcal each day between 3 people. He came out with a double chin. Either he was obese before being captured (doesn’t seem to be the case), or the only script that exists is the one he’s reading courtesy of the IDF.

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dannywild@reddit

It’s funny how quickly “Pro-Palestinians” revert to the tactics they complain about Israel supporters using when the victim is Israeli.

MrCharmingTaintman@reddit

I literally didn’t say any of those things. All I said was to look at the photo because you either haven’t or you’re blind.

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CastleElsinore@reddit

People with double chin aren't being starved.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinian-prisoners-mideast-war-4ff433ea39a313c1937d1c0a577efaf4

These people aren't emaciated

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/living-hostages-and-palestinian-prisoners-released-as-part-of-gaza-ceasefire

This dude is.

See the difference?

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MrCharmingTaintman@reddit

If you think anyone in either of those pictures looks like they were being starved and are emaciated, I might have some bad news.

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evil_brain@reddit

It's a people's war. The settlers don't discriminate in who they murder or dispossess. So everyone is motivated to help the resistance. You don't have to be a fighter to resist. Everyone has a role.

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SowingSalt@reddit

So you're saying there aren't any civilian casualties in Gaza, because they're all part of the resistance? Do you realize what's coming out of your keyboard, and how unhinged that is?

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evil_brain@reddit

It doesn't matter what I say. The fact is that the settler-colonisers are killing everyone. And they've been doing so since 1948. It's the settlers and their sponsors who've defined the nature of the conflict.

The European borders destroyed Africas chances to stability and they still can’t pick its own pieces and create a stable continent. So yea, it’s a fucking disgrace. Does that mean we shouldn’t recognize them? No and not my point, what exactly do you think I am saying in this thread? You absolute moron, I am talking about the partition was the point of origin of the destruction of the Levant, in response to another moron saying the Arabs should’ve accepted the 1948 borders from the start

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Mr-Anderson123@reddit

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Monterenbas@reddit

So what’s the logic here? Carving country is supposed to be more acceptable, if it’s not in the middle East?

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madhatta42@reddit

The logic is to apply that argument equally to all countries.

The second part… And it seems as though that is exactly what people believe. Israel bad creation and a mistake, other places are fine.

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Do you think that would have stopped the nutters from a greater Israel project and rebuilding the temple for the messiah

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Longjumping-Jello459@reddit

Pal there's been calls by and attempts to destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Mosque by the nutters to rebuild the temple for decades, but they've been stopped by the majority of the rest to prevent starting a war with the entire Arab world.

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Ok_News_5691@reddit

If you're basing your moral opinion on a theoretical scenarios please keep them out of the conversation and return to play them out CIV/ageOfEmpires... adults are speaking now.

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akbermo@reddit

Cool line…

SowingSalt@reddit

The Bechuanaland Protectorate has an interesting history. The British did claim it as a protectorate, but the local leaders were able to fend off colonial rule from people like Cecil Rhodes and the BSAC by going to London to plead their cases. British rule kept the Portuguese, the Germans, and the Boers out of the area.

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I invade your home and start killing your people. Your people don't like that so they decide to resist the invasion. My indiscriminate killing is now justified. Cute story.

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SowingSalt@reddit

Are you an Axis power?

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Derk_Durr@reddit

Are you sowing salt?

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SowingSalt@reddit

I invade your home and start killing your people

Seeing as the Arabs were in power and in the majority, your logic dictates that they would be in the right.

You just ignore the 1929 riots (which include the Hebron Massacre,) and the Arab uprisings in the 30s, and the Arab cooperation with the Nazis in the 30s and 40s.

You seem to be the one conflating active participation in the war with normal civilian stuff.

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Preyy@reddit

I have explained why your reasoning for your statement was not logically sound, because not all forms of resistance are by combatants, so your original accusation about another person is wrong:

"So you're saying there aren't any civilian casualties in Gaza, because they're all part of the resistance?

HKEY_LOVE_MACHINE@reddit

When Nazis occupied France I'd expect every able Frenchman to participate in resistance one way or another.

French Résistance never mass murdered german civilians, thank you very much.

Call me when Hamas transition from terrorism to insurgency, then we can make some proper comparison.

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arostrat@reddit

German civilians didn't invade France in mass and didn't built settlements in France and SS reserves didn't pretend they were civilians.

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HKEY_LOVE_MACHINE@reddit

Are you fucking serious?!

German civilians didn't invade France in mass

They fucking did you MUPPET, did you miss the thousands of pictures of german forces in France.

And didn't built settlements in France

They occupied entire cities to house hundreds of thousands of SS and Wehrmacht soldiers, forcing millions of French to escape on foot.

and SS reserves didn't pretend they were civilians.

The SS absolutely violated the rules of war, the Gestapo wasnin civilian clothings, AND tortured-executed tens of thousands of french civilians, on mere suspicion of being jewish or communist or part of the resistance.

Jesus fucking christ you are so fucking ignorant about WW2 it is baffling.

Even after all these things, the French Résistance did NOT massacre civilians.

Stop with your neo-nazis revisionist bullshit to try to prop up Hamas as some virtuous organization.

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meister2983@reddit

Depends on what you mean by "target" of course. At least under IHL, yes, many are likely violating military law, but they remain protected from unreasonable punishments. They still can be detained by the occupier for violating law, just not say executed for something like a minor theft.

Hamas killed a few children which is a tragedy.

That is the reality, yes. They broke basically every single international law in the last two years and nothing happened to them. They've been an illegal colony since its inception in the early 1900s. Israel can't then go cry wolf when they lose some future war and collapse like every fascist state does in the end. Whatever happens to them, they did to somebody else already.

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meister2983@reddit

They've been an illegal colony since its inception in the early 1900s.

Can't just use the word illegal if we don't know what the law even is.

Israel can't then go cry wolf when they lose some future war and collapse like every fascist state does in the end

Ok. Probably won't happen. Palestinians don't get to cry either after they've lost yet another war and will just keep happening.

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times_a_changing@reddit

Palestinians are the legitimate and original victims in this situations. Anything they do in defense is valid.

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meister2983@reddit

Palestinians are the legitimate and original victims in this situations.

Because you say so? That was convincing.

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GothicGolem29@reddit

This goes beyond resistance

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OkBubbyBaka@reddit

So if everyone has a role do you apply the same logic to Israelis? Does every Israeli have a role in your eyes, is every a valid target for Palestinian resistance?

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CastleElsinore@reddit

Well, they think its okay to murder people raving at a music festival, or strangling babies by hand, so yes. The Palestinians have proved they think anyone is a target

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Yeah, cause the Israelis don't kill babies by hand... they've industrialized the process via their military.

This is you.

Specifically "by hand"

Well, there was the NBC news article I linked earlier.

How about the Haaretz?

CastleElsinore@reddit

I don't sub to Haaretz (its trash in English, and my Hebrew js better audible then written, so it takes me forever to read an article)

Luigi Daniele is not an unbiased source, he is a lecturer on Palestinian studies and constantly quoted in "law4palestine"

The witnesses alleged that 57 of these children were shot by the IDF, and two were shot by Palestinians - one in celebratory gunfire and the other in a gang conflict.

From the BBC article. Now this is believable.

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Mr-Anderson123@reddit

Hey bro, I can contact you with some English teachers so you can take classes. You need them

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zZCycoZz@reddit

They dont strangle kids, they just shoot and bomb them instead.

Children account for more than one in three of the more than 32,000 people killed in Israel’s months-long assault on Gaza, according to the Palestinian health ministry. Tens of thousands more young people have suffered severe injuries, including amputations.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war

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CastleElsinore@reddit

Nope, you said "kill babies by hand"

Prove it.

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zZCycoZz@reddit

You must not have great comprehension skills because:

Im not the person who "said" that
The actual quote

Yeah, cause the Israelis don't kill babies by hand... they've industrialized the process via their military.

Obviously says they have industrialised the process rather than killing them by hand.

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CastleElsinore@reddit

We know what "industrialization" looks like.

Having peopleforced to dig their own graves

It looks like piles of shoes

photos of people actually starving

Or throwing grenades into bomb shelters

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zZCycoZz@reddit

Playing victim over something from a century ago doesnt justify israeli war crimes today, even if its your only tactic.

We know what "industrialization" looks like.

It looks like systematically targeting all infrastructure used to support life.

It looks like bombing whole families in their homes at night.

It looks like intentionally blocking aid to starve children to death.

Have you seen a picture of gaza recently? Thats the definiton of industrial destruction.

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CastleElsinore@reddit

The holocaust wasn't a century ago.

Almost all of us have relatives who survived that, the farhuud, or similar

It looks like systematically targeting all infrastructure used to support life.

Thats not what industrialized murder looks like

Have you seen a picture of gaza recently? Thats the definiton of industrial destruction.

Destruction isn't murder

https://www.npr.org/sections/the-picture-show/2025/10/15/nx-s1-5574119/photos-gaza-ceasefire-hostages-prisoners

Here is a bunch of pictures of Palestinians who... aren't starving

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zZCycoZz@reddit

Almost all of us have relatives who survived that, the farhuud, or similar

And now youre supporting a new holocaust. Your relatives would be proud.

Here is a bunch of pictures of Palestinians who... aren't starving

"Here is a picture of a bunch of jewish kids that arent starving, see? The holocaust is a lie"

Thats how you sound.

Destruction isn't murder

Yeah, they murdered plenty of people too. They also targeted hospitals and IVF clinics to prevent births.

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Please show me these people who allegedly said they were ok with strangling babies by hand.

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CastleElsinore@reddit

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjry3jzedl1o

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MrCharmingTaintman@reddit

Ok what am I supposed to do with that? That’s not even remotely what I asked for.

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Waldoh@reddit

people raving at a music festival

You mean the human shields Israel put outside of their open air prison where KHAMAS still had a better civilian death ratio than the IOF over the next 2 years?

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CastleElsinore@reddit

Looool, are you playing buzzword bingo?

Nova was a peace festival.

And hamas murders Palestinians all on its own without any influence or help

Heck, last week there was an article about unwra staff raping Palestinian women, which... was somehow Israel's fault?

Explain that one to me.

And hamas strangling baking bare handed isn't a good look

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Waldoh@reddit

61% of Israeli men don't think non consensual sex should be considered rape

here is a video of 10 IDF terrorists gang raping a Palestinian prisoner so brutally, his anus and colon had to be surgically reconstructed:

https://nitter.poast.org/DoubleDownNews/status/1940891365396844890#m

The government tried to prosecute 6 of the rapist guards because they were under ICC investigation, but then israelis had their own pro rape january 6 style riots to free them & the main rapist became a hero paraded around on Israeli TV. Look him up his name is Meir Ben-shitrit.

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Firecracker048@reddit

Never saw any starving Hamas terrorists, did we?

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splader@reddit

Wasn't their leader found with an empty stomach?

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FormerLawfulness6@reddit

Israel starved captives intentionally for the purpose of torture, despite having ample food. Israel starved millions of people intentionally for the purpose of torture and systematically destroyed the infrastructure built over decades to keep the population supplied for the sole purpose of ensure that the bodies will continue to stack up even if the slow down the shooting a little (because Israel has never stopped shooting).

Israel intentionally killed their own people on Oct 7, and continued to kill hostages by bombing locations where they were believed to be held. Israel intentionally created conditions where their hostages would starve, knowing that they could weaponize European's racist hierarchy of human value to justify genocide for the sake of "rescuing" people they would have shot in the back to avoid having tk negotiation.

Anyone who is more concerned with 20 people than 5 million (the West Bank is also being ethnically cleansed) is only proving that they have completely dehumanized Palestinians. If your racism overwhelms your capacity for reason, you should probably keep that to yourself.

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PleaseDontBanMe82@reddit

He also said after the first round of hostage releases earlier this year they started feeding them a lot more.

But still, anything coming out of Israel really shouldn't be trusted.

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xland44@reddit

Don't trust Israel for this, just look at pictures of Evyatar David, one of the hostages released last week, which were taken from a video released by Hamas.

Evyatar David

But still, anything coming out of Israel really shouldn't be trusted.

Or, we can just be racist and ignore the testimony of someone who just got out of two years of being a hostage /s

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Wompish66@reddit

Don't trust Israel for this

I'm going to assume that you're a rational and decent person. We should never trust anything that comes from the Israeli government. They have been caught lying time and time again. Brave Israeli journalists like at +972 have exposed this.

just look at pictures of Evyatar David, one of the hostages released last week, which were taken from a video released by Hamas.

That looks horrific but there is also context missing. We don't know where he was being kept. Some parts of Gaza were completely shut off for months. I would be shocked if some of the hostages were not starving, just like the Palestinians around them.

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xland44@reddit

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/26/europe/or-levy-israel-hostage-hamas-gaza-starve-intl

“He was starved. All of them (hostages) were starved. They barely ate, they barely drank,” Michael Levy, Or’s brother, told CNN in an interview.

The captors ate “chicken, meat – they had everything,” while his brother and the others he was held alongside “were getting nothing,” Michael said. The Hamas fighters “even laughed when they saw them looking” at their meals, he added.

Asked whether his brother may have been denied food because of shortages in Gaza, Michael said this did not explain why the Hamas captors ate well.

“They were intentionally starved. It’s as simple as that. The terrorists next to them ate all the time,” he said, relating what his brother had told him about his time in the tunnels. Hamas laughed when the unfed hostages looked at their full meals.

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Bartellomio@reddit

Okay, hopefully this will ease your concerns.

I absolutely condemn the members of Hamas who have taken vastly more food than they need, at the expense of the people of Gaza. It is a cruel and selfish act.

Now that we've sorted that, you can condemn the Israelis for manufacturing a famine and we're square.

I think we can both accept that preventing people from being able to access food is evil. Whether those people are from Hamas or the IDF, doesn't change the morality of their actions.

However, while the morality of that evil doesn't differ, the scale of it does. And even if Hamas stopped taking that good, Gaza would still be in a famine.

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Zipz@reddit

You didn’t condemn them for starving the hostages…..

Funny how that works

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DkKoba@reddit

do you condemn israel's intentional tactic of starving the gazan population y/n

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Bartellomio@reddit

The funny thing is that I just looked through your comments. When I criticised you for failing to condemn starving kids, you said, 'I acknowledged it actually and said it’s terrible', but that was a lie. You never said that. You have never once criticised the Israeli government for the famine they have caused, or said it was terrible.

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Zipz@reddit

And again you keep ignoring it

You refuse to call out Hamas for starving hostages

Instead of just saying you think it’s bad you even went through all my comments in attempt to deflect

You just made a fool of yourself and exposed yourself

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Bartellomio@reddit

You refuse to call out Hamas for starving hostages

I just said, 'preventing people from being able to access food is evil. Whether those people are from Hamas or the IDF, doesn't change the morality of their actions.'

So yes, I very explicitly condemned it.

Now you condemn Israel for causing a famine.

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xland44@reddit

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/26/europe/or-levy-israel-hostage-hamas-gaza-starve-intl

“He was starved. All of them (hostages) were starved. They barely ate, they barely drank,” Michael Levy, Or’s brother, told CNN in an interview.

The captors ate “chicken, meat – they had everything,” while his brother and the others he was held alongside “were getting nothing,” Michael said. The Hamas fighters “even laughed when they saw them looking” at their meals, he added.

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Bartellomio@reddit

The captors ate “chicken, meat – they had everything,” while his brother and the others he was held alongside “were getting nothing,” Michael said. The Hamas fighters “even laughed when they saw them looking” at their meals, he added.

This sounds like bullshit. We have objective information that tells us how much food is getting into Gaza. The average Gazan is literally starving. I seriously doubt the captors were enjoying these marvelous banquets lmao.

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xland44@reddit

While it's true that food accessibility is an issue in Gaza, it's never been an issue of quantity but instead of distribution.

As per official UN statistics, about 80% of aid trucks entering the strip get intercepted along the way - sometimes just by hungry Gazans, but more often often by armed groups which stockpile food for their fighters or sell it on the black market for funding. The statistics listed here only include some of the organizations, not all.

This is a sharp improvement, given that during certain periods the amount of intercepted trucks have been as high as 87%.

To get a quick idea of what gunmen intercepting aid trucks, just look at this short video published by the AFP, featuring a convoy of trucks hijacked by armed gunmen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa0CZrEu24Q

Now read the official UN statistics of 80% again, and tell me if it's so surprising for you that Hamas captors were eating well while Gazans and Hostages weren't.

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Bartellomio@reddit

...contrary to what internet users claim, UN2720 does not assert that most of this aid was diverted by Hamas.

Olga Cherevko, from the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, provided further details about the looters to the Israeli media outlet Times of Israel: the vast majority of the looting was being carried out “by hungry Gazans, not by armed gangs”, the UN employee said.

“The long-standing restrictions on the entry of aid have created an unpredictable environment where there is a lack of confidence by the communities that aid will reach them. This has resulted in many of our convoys offloaded directly by starving, desperate people,” Cherevko explained.

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20250828-un-did-not-say-87-humanitarian-aid-gaza-looted-hamas?utm_source=chatgpt.com

The IDF (who are themselves very likely to overstate the amount stolen by Hamas) claim 25% of aid was taken by Hamas, but they said that much of that was resold on to Palestinians. We can assume the real number is much less than 25% because the IDF literally lie constantly.

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xland44@reddit

Here is an article showing several Hamas members underground in tunnels eating plenty of fresh vegetables and fruit. The article itself is in Hebrew, but the video and the pictures in the article don't really need translation.

We can assume the real number is much less than 25%

Regardless of the percentage, it would be an insane amount of food stolen, which doesn't go to civilians.

Let's give you the benefit of doubt and suppose that the IDF is exaggerating, sure. Let's say they're exaggerating by saying Hamas took twice as much as they actually did - 12.5% of the aid instead of 25% as they claim.

This means, that out of food and aid intended for 2.2 million people, food for 275,000 people was stolen for an organization. That's an insane amount.

12.5% is too much? Sure, let's assume the IDF is exaggerating 4 times as much, not 2. Let's round that down to 6% - that's still food for 132,000 Hamas members which didn't enter the stomachs of Gaza civilians on any given day over the course of two years. You can round down further until you reach a number which sounds reasonable to you, but you'd need to divide by 2 many times until my point stops being relevant. I can find many more videos of gunmen stealing aid convoys.

Out of those Hamas members, of course they'd prioritize leaders and high-priority locations such as hostage captors. When you have food for tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people, keeping a few hundred high priority locations stockpiled is really child's play.

But really, the point is moot. At the end of the day there's a person who was held captive for two years, and his testimony is that his captors ate very well while they themselves were starved. You can take this testimony at face value, or you can choose to ignore it.

Even if you still doubt with a survivor's testimony, I think I've provided more than enough points to make it a reasonable claim which doesn't seem overly unlikely.

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Bartellomio@reddit

I want to clarify, that I accept the statement that members of Hamas are taking vastly more food than they need, at the expense of Gazan civilians. I am not debating that, it seems pretty clear that that is happening.

While I think his testimony must be taken with a gain of salt, because he is likely to be very biased, I can see based on the evidence that it is very possible that it's true.

However I do find it unbelievably rich that Israelis are clutching their pearls about him being underfed when they are strategically starving two million people. The WHO has declared a famine in Gaza and half of its victims are children. However much food Hamas has prevented from reaching the people of Gaza, I think we can agree that the IDF has taken overwhelmingly more.

I am also curious how well Israel is feeding the roughly 10,000 Palestinians in its prisons. Just 4yesterday, Israeli soldiers dumped 45 unidentified Palestinian corpses near a hospital in Gaza. They all had their arms and legs bound, and many showed signs of torture. I would be interested to see how well fed they are.

And I am sure that if they were starved, you will show just as much anger as you show about this hostage.

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xland44@reddit

Rest assured, I have many criticisms for the current government and how the war was handled, including and definitely not limited to criticisms on blockading of humanitarian aid and food from entering the Strip.

My conversation with you thus far has been about correcting misinformation and incorrect assumptions - do notice that at no point did I state any any overt political opinions on the conflict beyond "Hamas is bad".

I'm glad we can agree at least that it's reasonable Hamas has taken some ampunt of food, even if not systematic, at least enough to ensure extremely strategic locations such as hostage captors are well stockpiled.

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Bartellomio@reddit

I apologise for coming at this with incorrect presumptions about your political leanings.

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zootbot@reddit

Combatants eat first is like true in every siege ever

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PleaseDontBanMe82@reddit

How is not believing a country that constantly lies and engages in propaganda being racist?

Are you one of the smooth-brains that think any critique of Israel is antisemitic?

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xland44@reddit

Is it the government of Israel saying this, or a poor schmuck who just got out of two years of captvity?

Reading the title of this thread, I could have sworn it says "freed israeli hostage says..." and not "freed israeli country says..." but perhaps reading the alphabet to form simple words is beyond my capability if I misread that. Oh wait, I didn't.

If you automatically dismiss someone's testimony based on where they were born by passing it off as government propaganda, and you genuinely believe ypu're not a bigot, boy do I have a bridge to sell you.

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yeltsin98@reddit

I admire the equanimity with which you respond to racism (“all Israelis are liars”, essentially) and it pisses me off and disappoints me that people on my ‘side’ like the person you replied to can be both stupid and deceitful. The debating skills on display here are piss-poor. As a side note they don’t seem to realise that actual antisemitism fuels the Israeli government’s domestic ideological campaign of “We have to commit war crimes and wipe out the Palestinians because the world hates us.”

And with that I have probably pissed you off, too, but such is the Middle East.

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xland44@reddit

I'm not pissed off. I appreciate your comment!

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GetOutOfTheWhey@reddit

dude has a double chin.....

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ebekulak@reddit

If I ever get taken as a hostage by freedom fighters, I hope it will be Hamas. My mom will be happy that finally I'm having regular meals and taken good care of.

Why do you think it's pointless for victims to share testimonies of what they went through?

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anime_titties-ModTeam@reddit

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hannes3120@reddit

No I'm not.

Bibi should be trialed in Den Hague for the starvation of Gaza as that very likely qualifies as a Genocide

The bombings are having relatively few casualties (they had 70k casualties in over 2 years while Dresden had 25k in just 3 days when the Americans bombed it (with less than 600k people living in Dresden at the time compared to the over 2 Million in Gaza (they have roughly the same population density)))

All of those dead people (except for the Hamas fighters) are absolutely horrible and a lot could've probably been avoided if Netanyahu wouldn't be more interested in keeping the war going to avoid prison - but that's clearly

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

That's why the #1 rule in war is to NEVER use ambulances, schools or hospitals as cover for your soldiers

So anything Israeli is cool to just blast sky high then.

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MrCharmingTaintman@reddit

Once that rule is broken however civilian casualties cannot be prevented anymore.

So testimony from one of the hostages is taken as an automatic lie from you when they are Israeli but you don’t question at all anything that Palestinians say? Like when you defend Hamas executing Palestinians in the streets and you automatically believe the story Hamas tells?

Can you see or even acknowledge your own biases in this? You don’t think you are unbiased do you?

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BabylonianWeeb@reddit

The Palestinian has bruses and cuts, they had something this guy didn't have.

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Colodanman357@reddit

The Palestinians could be lying too. Why is that not a possibility in your worldview? You just think only Israelis lie?

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loggy_sci@reddit

He hates Israelis and hates Jews, and he supports Hamas. It is very simple.

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The person I responded to absolutely does believe Hamas releases.

Citation needed.

If you look at my comment all I did was ask why the other person is claiming it is a lie without any evidence whatsoever. It is reasonable to ask them what evidence they have for such a claim.

It is. And its equally reasonable for me to ask why you do believe it. If you dont actually believe i dlnt know why you got so defensive.

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Colodanman357@reddit

Read their comment history here. Just the other day they were defending Hamas killing Palestinians in the streets calling them collaborators.

Why are you trying to defend them? Why did you get defensive when I asked someone else what evidence they have for their claims of lying? That doesn’t seem reasonable.

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waldleben@reddit

Why are you trying to defend them?

Im not. They dont seem like a good person and i dont give a shit about them. In this entire thread i haven once said anything at all in their favour.

Why did you get defensive when I asked someone else what evidence they have for their claims of lying?

The only one getting really fucking defensive here is you. I just asked the single most obvious and expectable follow-up question to your comment.

if your country was attacked and you were drafted, would you say that your country has a military culture?

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FeijoadaAceitavel@reddit

Holy shit, bro. How can you be so damn blind?

Gaza has been under a blockade for decades and is constantly invaded and bombed, even before October 7. The West Bank lives under an apartheid. If we go by your logic, Palestine doesn't have a military culture at all, just duty.

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frankiplayer@reddit

At this point both culture are militarized, so that moot a argument, feel free to show a similar video from a israeli preschool if you find it am curious about it.

And am on the side of the Palestinian and israelian population, clearly hamas is a tool used to attack israel as you can guess by the surrounding country hiding their leaders, but i am also against nethanyaoi bcs the fuck just want to stay in power and will help the ultra ortodox and the settler thing is a fiasco.

Tldr both side are militarized.

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FeijoadaAceitavel@reddit

Qatar hosts the Hamas negotiators by request of the US and Israel. Because it's hard to negotiate when you're getting killed in Gaza.

And yes, both sides are militarized. But only one is actively having its land stolen and its people systematically killed.

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frankiplayer@reddit

Am talking more specifically the leaders not the negociations, there was also negotiation in egypt and i think they killed a hamas leader in iran last year.

McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Except that Israelis serve their mandatory conscription at age 18 so by 19 or 20 they're out of the army and are civilians like everyone else.

Pro-Palestinian folks aren't making that argument

Yes, they are.

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Jotun35@reddit

Yes. And they have potentially bullied and tormented Palestinians.

Does a war criminal stops to be a war criminal after his service?

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Address my point about them being civilians first instead of just ignoring it and hoping I don't notice.

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Jotun35@reddit

Yes they are civilians and? What's your point?

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

So they're not legitimate targets.

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Jotun35@reddit

Sure. Just like civilians in Gaza aren't legitimate targets.

But in both cases, they are seen as "not innocent".

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NotGalenNorAnsel@reddit

Israelis are making the argument that every Palestinian, man woman and child, should be murdered. So where are we? You're going to say "that's not the most common opinion" and I'll say ditto.

Except that Israelis serve their mandatory conscription at age 18 so by 19 or 20 they're out of the army and are civilians like everyone else.

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Jotun35@reddit

What? Hamas have doctors that can make sure combatants and hostages survive? That's ridiculous totally breaking the Hippocratic oath (no it isn't)!

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

Sure, sure, the same way Nazi Germany had civil and political roles. Goebbels was a government minister, he wasn't a soldier, so he's a civilian and not at all guilty and a deserving target.

just to try paint all civilians as guilty and deserving targets.

No one thinks all civilians are deserving targets except for Palestine thinking all Israelis are deserving targets.

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Vaxx88@reddit

Thanks for illustrating the point— the attempt to smear all Palestinians is, as usual, obvious.

Overall not a good comparison though, the nazis were an entirely different situation regarding both goals and deeds.

To entertain the analogy, I think the everyday doctors and emt’s and police and the food services people and the guys who pick up the trash are not on the same level as Goebbels…

Social services wing Hamas developed its social welfare programme by replicating the model established by Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood. For Hamas, charity and the development of one's community are both prescribed by religion and to be understood as forms of resistance.[283] In Islamic tradition, dawah (lit. transl. "the call to God") obliges the faithful to reach out to others by both proselytising and by charitable works, and typically the latter center on the mosques which make use of both waqf endowment resources and charitable donations (zakat, one of the five pillars of Islam) to fund grassroots services such as nurseries, schools, orphanages, soup kitchens, women's activities, library services and even sporting clubs within a larger context of preaching and political discussions.[284] In the 1990s, some 85% of its budget was allocated to the provision of social services.[285]

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

Like how some Israeli prime ministers have been war criminals.

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IntrepidAd2478@reddit

They can, but they are still unlawful combatants when they do.

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Type_02@reddit

First grade teacher?!! This mean Khamaz had already brainwash children from the early age, that mean children is a legitimate target!

BabylonianWeeb@reddit

Israel is modern day Nazi Germany.

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hannes3120@reddit

No you don't

This sub is the most anti-isreal place in all Reddit...

But keep feeding your victim complex

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NewAccountEachYear@reddit

His comment was apparently incendiary enough for it to be downvoted enough to be hidden.

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hannes3120@reddit

Bonus points for that clown actually being a Mod here

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Zipz@reddit

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xland44@reddit

Indeed! It's disgusting, how could someone support Hamas?

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pm-me-nothing-okay@reddit

the irony of that statement when likud is in power, lmao.

Federal_Thanks7596@reddit

You're welcome Israel supporter.

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CatGoblinMode@reddit

I don't think the media arm of the apartheid government that committed an ethnic cleansing should be trusted to accurately report news about the area that it ethnically cleansed..

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I don't have any particular reason not to. I think they're probably telling the truth.

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

But when a Palestinian says they were abused or Greta she was abused I’m sure you believe them no problem

Yes.

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Zipz@reddit

Believe everybody but Jews

Got it

Imagine thinking this made you look good

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

Nice one, not obvious or anything.

I have zero problems believing Jewish people, Israelis however are the least trustworthy people on the planet at this point, I'd rather believe Trump than the Average Israeli.

That's not due to anti-semitism at all, it's just their track record is so atrocious that it's only natural.

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Zipz@reddit

Thanks for proving you are proud bigot

It’s wild you think you did something here

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Hey look deflecting again

Bad Iran bot

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

I'm not an Iranian bot, I'm the Ayatollah.

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CatGoblinMode@reddit

Perhaps if Israel hadn't murdered almost every journalist in Gaza, the state would have a bit more credibility?

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Zipz@reddit

Weird how what you said had nothing to do with what I said

This is the hostages own words not the isreali government

But you showed that double standard

You believe anything a Palestinian says but never an isreali

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CatGoblinMode@reddit

Weird how what you said had nothing to do with what I said

Yes I believe Greta. I don't think she's been caught lying about anything.

This is the hostages own words not the isreali government

No this is a report by the times of Israel, an incredibly biased newspaper which favours the country committing ethnic cleansing.

You believe anything a Palestinian says but never an isreali

No, I believe what I see and what can be verified by facts. Every single Al Jazeera journalist in Gaza has been murdered by Israel. Israel has been caught lying thousands of times at this point. Every single aid worker in Gaza has said damning things about the atrocities Israel is committing.

It isn't a worldwide anti-semitic conspiracy, it's multiple people from different organisations speaking out whilst we watched two years of a brutal ethnic cleansing. So come down off your high horse, you've got no moral righteousness here.

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Zipz@reddit

Wild you have to lie about things

These were the hostages own words. It’s wild you try to pretend it’s not

You believe Greta yet she showed zero evidence, no bruising, no bug bites….. nothing

But you won’t believe this hostage

You say you believe verified facts but again you believe Greta just based on her own words

So you just lied and exposed yourself Funny how that works

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CatGoblinMode@reddit

So has Greta lied before?

But you won’t believe this hostage

Yes I'm understandably sceptical.

You say you believe verified facts but again you believe Greta just based on her own words

Has she been caught lying before? She shouldn't have even been kidnapped by Israel in the first place.

So you just lied and exposed yourself

I'd call you a moron, but you're not. You are a disingenuous bad faith, malicious actor.

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Zipz@reddit

So has this hostage been caught lying before?

Oh no?

i think we'd all appreciate hearing more from palestinian journalists

Like the one that was caught holding a hostage?

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advillious@reddit

absolutely insane to me that grown adults actually pretend to believe this shit.

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This sub is just completely off the deep end at this point. Not even denying it anymore, just saying its valid and they are all acceptable but also saying they can't be targeted in raids and strikes because they are still somehow civilians despite giving direct aid to Hamas and providing military value in hiding their hostages.

Yep, turns out being brutally oppressed and the victims of a genocide will make people have sympathy for you.

Which Nazi is your Favourite? Is it Hitler or someone else? Maybe Adolf Eichmann since he was so instrumental in the holocaust.

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Silverr_Duck@reddit

Victims of a genocide don't massacre families like hamas did on oct 7.

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

Inside job so they could blame it on Hamas. ;)

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Silverr_Duck@reddit

Yeah those families who were tortured and raped must have done it to themselves since they were in on it.

You're disgusting 🤡

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coffee-slut@reddit

Finally some sanity

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Tangata_Tunguska@reddit

Yeah it's annoying, a year or two ago this sub was quite neutral, but reddit inherently polarises everything. This sub (in aggregate) can no longer hold that two sides of a war can be bad, so now Hamas, a terrorist organisation, are the good guys.

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BDOKlem@reddit

making 'some' civilian targets valid, in an area where there is absolutely no way to investigate possible war crimes, would inherently remove any remaining Israeli accountability on the pretense of plausible deniability.

this is why non-combatants are off-limits.

if you're too dumb to realize that, you're the one that needs serious help.

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Firecracker048@reddit

this is why non-combatants are off-limits.

Until they do shit like assisting military forces in that way.

That's why Ukraine or anyone else doesn't do this shit. They all know it opens them up to valid strikes.

If your too dumb to realize that, you need serious help. Stop excusing the Islamic fascist terror organization.

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BDOKlem@reddit

Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions (1977), Article 51:
Civilians shall enjoy the protection afforded by this Section, unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities. art. 3
-

ICRC Interpretive Guidance on the Notion of Direct Participation in Hostilities (2009):
In order to reach the required threshold of harm, a specific act must be likely to adversely affect the military operations or military capacity of a party to an armed conflict or, alternatively, to inflict death, injury, or destruction on persons or objects protected against direct attack page 47

Direct causation should be understood as meaning that the harm in question must be brought about in one causal step. therefore, individual conduct that merely builds up or maintains the capacity of a party to harm its adversary, or which otherwise only indirectly causes harm, is excluded from the concept of direct participation in hostilities. page 53

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Firecracker048@reddit

Holding a hostage literally makes you a captor in this case, it's not hard to understand. And again ther is a reason Hamas is the only organization in the world right now that co-opts it's civilian infrastructure with military and no other military in the entire world does it.m

Like the example I provided above, there's a reason Ukraine isn't utilizing all it's schools and apartments and hospitals to double as military infrastructure while it's civilians are present. Only Hamas does this, and strangely, it is always excused as not their fault. And yes, utilizing these structures as military infrastructure not only directly effects military operations, but vilolates the principal of distinction. Same with holding hostages with 'civilians'.

https://casebook.icrc.org/law/principle-distinction

I'll draw your attention to part 3 specifically.

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platp@reddit

Hamas doesn't do that zionist supporter. In fact Israel couldn't provide one valid evidence for that claim. All the false evidence is disproven. They have claimed every war crime justification but couldn't show any evidence for it.

We know the truth no matter how much you lie.

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Beer_Gynt@reddit

If your too dumb to realize that

*you're

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xland44@reddit

If you're literally holding a civillian hostage in your home, you're taking an active part in Hamas's war effort against Israel - you are by every definition not a civillian while acting as a captor for Hamas.

if you're too dumb to realize that, you're the one that needs serious help.

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BDOKlem@reddit

argue it out with the Geneva Convention and the ICRC.

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xland44@reddit

As per the Geneva convention, a civilian is a person who is not a member of a country's armed forces and does not directly participate in hostilities.

So we're quite in agreement, but thank you for the concern!

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BDOKlem@reddit

if they were holding a hostage at gun-point, they would be a legal target. an unarmed caretaker would not.

No, this is not a strawman

it's still a strawman; you selectively applied "in your home" to an article that specifically talks about hostages being held in tunnels.

not only are you doing it again now, by dragging in an unrelated article,

many hostages testified to having been held captive in civillian homes

this use of 'civilian' is an equivocation fallacy; nothing there indicates the homes weren't just the homes of Hamas members.

the only thing you Hasbarists rely on in is weak rhetoric.

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xland44@reddit

If you're holding someone against their eill, you are by definition not a caretaker, you're a captor. Stop being a disgusting terrorist sympathiser and stop being an apologist for kidnapping people.

this use of 'civilian' is an equivocation fallacy; nothing there indicates the homes weren't just the homes of Hamas members.

As I said in my previous point, the location is moot. It would be a fallacy if it held any bearing in my logic, which it does not. They are not civillians by virtue of assisting and taking active part in the kidnapping and holding hostage of Israelis at the behest of an armed terror organization at war with Israel.

Now, since I'm just rehashing my points without your contributing any new points of substance, I'm going to continue on with my life. Have a good day, and hopefully stop being an apologist for this shit.

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BDOKlem@reddit

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xland44@reddit

Why did you post an empty comment and then reply in editing your old one?

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Firecracker048@reddit

Oh shut the fuck up, there is no strawman. It's what happened. Why are you all the same with this bullshit? Just call a spade and spade and stop twisting yourself in a knot to justify what only one organization in the world is doing, in direct violation of everything

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anime_titties-ModTeam@reddit

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Rule 4 (Keep it civil).

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Naurgul@reddit

Some doctors, teachers etc might be valid targets. But this article and people like you push the propaganda that because some of them help Hamas then every time Israel kills doctors/teachers they MUST have been Hamas and therefore they deserved it.

Someone naive might believe you the first hundred times but at some point you lose your credibility after killing every teacher/doctor.

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OptimisticRealist__@reddit

So hostages report - again - that doctors, journalists, teachers et all were part of keeping them hostage, paired with yesterdays reports of Hamas killing civilians, i am certain, this sub and all the self proclaimed humanists that reportedly care ever so deeply about the civilians, will stage mass protests again. Any minute now...

Just kidding, they will blame Israel and happily continue their antisemitism.

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Jotun35@reddit

Yeah really puzzling. It's a bit like if you massacre an entire population, some regular folks become violent and resist. Very strange indeed...

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OptimisticRealist__@reddit

Just say youre simping for an islamic terrorist organisation and be done with. Its funny how youre proving the point i made originally, btw

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Do you not stop to think about what could possibly cause a doctor to turn down a path of violence? A profession that is...notoriously about peace and caring for others...

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Nileghi@reddit

Do you not stop to think about what could possibly cause a doctor to turn down a path of violence? A profession that is...notoriously about peace and caring for others...

"How could Josef Mengele be a bad man?"

Palestinian doctors aren't less evil than anyone else. They can still commit atrocities or still support them nonetheless.

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Jacinto2702@reddit

Che Guevara was a doctor too. He saw the material conditions Latin America was condemned to live in by American imperialism and took arms.

McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

They can't even bring themselves to pretend to care about the mother and two children Hamas executed yesterday. If there's an level of evil Hamas can sink to that they won't defend, we haven't found it yet.

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Jacinto2702@reddit

As long as the material conditions of the Palestinian people remain as they are now nothing will change.

OptimisticRealist__@reddit

Just so that I understand you correctly, you are trying to say that only Hamas is oppressing the Palestinian people?

Huh? So you disagree? So in your mind Hamas reflects all palestinians?

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RandomGenName1234@reddit

The Ukrainian love for Nazis and their modern equivalent is pretty strong.

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SurfiNinja101@reddit

Criticism of the state of Israel and the actions committed by its institutions is not anti-Semitic

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Tangata_Tunguska@reddit

It's far past that. They're justifying hostage taking of uninvolved civilians as "resistance".

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CricketJamSession@reddit

It is way past that point and you know it

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Zipz@reddit

Ignoring a hostages claim calling them all liars and justifying kidnapping

This just feels like the tactic Israel has had from day one with legitimizing the killing of civilians.

And I have a hard time believing a guy living on 200-300kcal a day comes out looking like this.

What a vile attempt of trying to push a narrative that there are no innocents in Gaza.

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McAlpineFusiliers@reddit (OP)

So you think this hostage is lying?

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NewAccountEachYear@reddit

Well that changes everything! I shall no longer feel horrified by the children with sniper bullets in their craniums. My mind has now been cleared of all the mystification and disinformation.

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