Trump says Hamas must disarm or be disarmed, perhaps violently
Posted by jaynic1@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 319 comments
Posted by jaynic1@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 319 comments
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
I mean, that’s what Israel was doing during be war. The whole peace deal was so that it could be done peacefully, right? If Hamas doesn’t want to do it the easy way, there’s no other option but the hard way.
Pristine-Ant-464@reddit
Much of the weapons Hamas has is made from unexploded Israeli munitions. Bombing Gaza in an attempt to get Hamas to disarm is like throwing lemons and sugar at someone while telling them to stop making lemonade.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
I’m sorry, is Hamas now executing Palestinians with unexploded Israeli bombs? Doesn’t look like it to me.
HourEast5496@reddit
Hamas is getting rid of the ISIS gang israel funded and supported, which was killing Palestinians and stealing food and helping ZNazis.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
That’s the pretext they always use to just kill anyone they want. Do you suppose they’ll use that excuse too to explain why they killed Al-Jafawari?
HourEast5496@reddit
Your masters in tel Aviv actually said it themselves they were funding ISIS-affiliated Al-Shabab gang, trump said the similar things that hamas got rid of bad gangs.
Go cry in the corner that your masters embarrassed you by giving you old hasbara manuals.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
There’s no actual evidence Al Shabab gang is related to ISIS.
HourEast5496@reddit
Lol! Ok, Haldi-raam, we will go with your lies even when Israeli sources themselves and the president of the USA also acknowledge that this gang is nothing but bad people and the family of head of this gang also have said on record what their son was and is... but we will listen to your lies because...... we don't want to jeopardize your 300 rupees a month payment.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
So you didn’t provide any evidence or citations to backup your claim. I’m guessing that’s because you don’t have any? Why are you wasting your and my time with responding?
HourEast5496@reddit
You get paid to lie and spread rumors, Haldi-raam. Earn your money *.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
You just keep coming back. Thanks for the free entertainment.
HourEast5496@reddit
You welcome Haldi-raam.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
👌👍
HourEast5496@reddit
Use them fingers carefully.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Didn’t realize fingers scared you. Might want to get that phobia checked out. Sound debilitating.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
My only payment is free entertainment. Not a bad trade off. You guys certainly love making fools of yourselves.
HourEast5496@reddit
Yawn! Youre absolutely pathetic Haldi-raam.
Pristine-Ant-464@reddit
Ah yes, because Israel will start bombing Gaza again out of concern for the Palestinians. /s
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
How does one stop the abuses of an oppressive regime? Overthrow it.
IAmAChewingGumAddict@reddit
have you learned anything from iraq and afghanistan bro, thats now how it works, Hamas is pretty much an insurgency at this point.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Ok sure, but Israel is the neighbor of Gaza, unlike the US with Afghanistan and Iraq. Whatever situation results from Hamas’ overthrow Israel is going to be directly involved with. So, they have a vested interest in making sure the situation is not just a free for all.
IAmAChewingGumAddict@reddit
that doesn’t really change the fact you can’t crush an insurgency without going way overboard, specifically in the war crimes department.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
If you occupy everything and deradicalize the population you have a good chance.
PartySr@reddit
You mean stealing their land, house, and killing them like they do in West Bank? You and the rest of the Zionists are so freaking disgusting. Always finding excuses to kill Palestinians.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
I don’t mean that at all, actually. I don’t recall any land being stolen in Germany or Japan after world war 2.
PartySr@reddit
They already doing that in West Bank. Do you suffering from amnesia by any chance? Israel won't ever treat Palestinians as humans, then again, you are a Zionist, you don't see the Palestinians as humans. You don't even acknowledge how Israel treats the Palestinians.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
What Israel is doing in the West Bank isn’t right. That said, the peace plan clearly stipulates steps to deradicalize Gaza. No reason to think it’ll be different from Germany post world war 2.
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
Allowing members of the government to publicly announce that they want to kill every man, woman, and child in Gaza is a weird way to start deradicalizing. Systematically destroying homes and civilian infrastructure while singing about Amalek and promising that Palestinians will receive not one morsel of food until they leave the earth probably didn't help either. Or sniping pregnant women and toddlers trying to reach hospitals.
If Israel planned to deradicalize Gaza, they probably should have started with messaging at home. The process of deradicalization requires assuring the population that there is no existential threat that they need to defend themselves from. Israel's words and actions over the last 2 years make it impossible for them to be part of deradicalization efforts for the victims of their wanton destruction.
IAmAChewingGumAddict@reddit
if you occupy everything then theres a very good chance you radicalize literally everyone. especially if you are from a foreign country.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Didn’t happen with Germany or Japan.
IAmAChewingGumAddict@reddit
dude, thats because we dropped nuclear bombs on Japan, and Germany was literally being raped by the Soviets.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
So you’re somehow saying Gaza is in better shape than Germany or Japan after world war 2?
IAmAChewingGumAddict@reddit
first of all, strawman argument and off topic. second of all, Gaza looks like, well a war torn hellhole, as expected. third of all, its clear you aren’t looking for an actual meaningful debate, so im just gonna end it here.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
There doesn’t seem to be any reason why Gaza can’t be Germany or Japan after world war 2 over an Iraq or Afghanistan. Just saying.
notrororo@reddit
why shouldn't israel disarm?
Sloppykrab@reddit
Israel is a sovereign country surrounded by hostile countries. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, not a sovereign country.
You can't call Hamas Palestine, unless that's changed recently. Hamas needs to disarm.
Stubbs94@reddit
Sovereign nations don't just get to commit genocide. Israel is a terrorist entity and is a danger to the region. No reason it shouldn't be disarmed.
steve-o1234@reddit
Jesus Christ, this is not how anything has ever worked. Germany was forced to disarm under the condition their external security would be ensured by other countries, and they were still allowed to keep their national guard equivalent. That was also an unconditional surrender. Israels position is not one where there is an realistic way to expect or ask them disarm. No one voluntarily disarms.
Israel is a soverign state. Unless you want the world to go to war with them (even though they are in no way threatening 95%+ of the world) there is no reason for them to disarm. Who wants to ensure Israels security on their behalf?
HourEast5496@reddit
A "state" that has no borders and refuses to declare one, a "state" that keeps stealing other's land, keeps killing indigenous people, and uses violence against "friends" and foes equally.
Sloppykrab@reddit
If you look on a map you'll borders.
HourEast5496@reddit
Nope! They dont. Znazis actually have no defined borders. It is time for you to look up what kind of Nazis you have neen supporting.
Sloppykrab@reddit
It's stupid calling Jewish people Nazis.
HourEast5496@reddit
If it walks like a duck, talk like a duck, it is a duck.
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
Maps don't declare borders. And the map Israel prefers actually proves that they don't recognize borders as over 20% of the land in Israel's logo-map is recognized as illegally occupied. Not including the territory in Syria and Lebanon, they're considering annexing. Israel's policy for determining territory is to perpetually harass and invade their neighbors, claiming as much territory as they can get away with and never agreeing to permanent terms with anyone so they're free to reopen the conflict any time they perceive weakness.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
No, you don't. Look at the West Bank.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Palestine gets statehood the terrorists can disband, like the Lehi and Irgun before it.
Stubbs94@reddit
The Lehi and Irgun didn't disband... They formed the current Israeli militant group.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
That is what disbanding is, and exactly what will happen with Hamas.
Stubbs94@reddit
I'm happy with Hamas helping form the Palestinian military too. The Palestinians have a right to self defence.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
We are on the same page then.
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
Now apply the same logic to every Palestinian group. No sane person would disarm when there is a belligerent military occupation that holds the public position that they will take all of the land by one means or another, no self-determination will ever be allowed, and your people are a demographic threat that needs to be reduced to roughly 20% of its current population before they can take the land without risking their majority.
Palestinians have been promised nothing except ethnic cleansing by a government that is openly boasting that they will never allow sovereignty and never allow citizenship. That leaves one outcome.
Palestine technically is a recognized state, but their sovereignty has been systematically and unlawfully destroyed by an aggressor that is publicly and unreservedly expressing genocidal intent. Yet we are offering the population no protection whatsoever, not even as Israel is declares starvation as policy or systematically demolishes entire cities.
The demand that any Palestinian group disarm without a guarantee of protection and a real plan for their continued existence on the land is a non-starter. That is not a peace plan, it's just renewing the justification for genocide when they inevitably refuse to disarm while the enemy is actively continuing to murder over a dozen people per day with no signs of stopping. That's not even including that the active ethnic cleansing in the West Bank is not even discussed in the alleged "peace plan".
The whole thing is a joke that only proves how completely dehumanized Palestinians are in world politics, being threatened to surrender a basic human right without any enforceable promise of protection.
Sloppykrab@reddit
No way?!
Israel is the most stable country in the region.
Have you seen the history of the region, they need weapons. Why do you think they have a defence dome?
GerryAdamsSon@reddit
The IRA disarmed with an extremely hard won and fair agreement. Not one that allowed the British to continue treating us as second class citizens
Sloppykrab@reddit
That I didn't know.
Does the ROI not have an army?
Stubbs94@reddit
The Provos disarmed in the occupied North, not here in the South. We have an actual defense force, unlike what the Israeli militants claim to be. Ireland only engages in UN peacekeeping missions.
Stubbs94@reddit
Apartheid regimes shouldn't be applauded for being stable. The IRA did disarm. Israel is the aggressor, they need the iron dome because of the occupation, not because they are the victims of aggression, all the Arab and Muslim states have said they would recognise Israel if it ends the occupation. Hamas has accepted a return to the 1967 borders and Palestinian sovereignty as well, only Israel are blocking it. Are you advocating for a Good Friday Agreement where both sides disarm, and a power sharing agreement within the region?
setut@reddit
Israel is a genocidal rogue state, supported by a worldwide cabal of genocidal European states/ settler states (Australia being one of them).
Your beauracracy-speak makes your genocide apologia seem even more pathetic.
steve-o1234@reddit
You really touched on every buzzword you know in two short sentences eh. This is the type of hard hitting content I think everyone can get off on.
setut@reddit
Denying genocide always makes you seem really edgy and cool.
steve-o1234@reddit
I didnt deny anything. I am not the person you last responded to. Although to be fair they did not deny anything either. You really dont dont know how to make arguments eh. Just genocide this, Apologia that.
You gotta get out of these echo chanbers from time to time. Really ruining your communication skills.
setut@reddit
I'm referring to your response to Stubbs94 above. I have no interest in interacting with you, you sicken me.
steve-o1234@reddit
I didn’t deny anything in that comment either. If you have no interest in interacting with feel free not to. But at least have the courtesy to not make baseless accusations if you prefer not to engage.
setut@reddit
Oh no?
Israel has been armed and had diplomatic cover provided for them by the US and other Western states. It is absurd to talk about disarming Israel when the most powerful country in the world is protecting them like the fucken mafia.
All parties to the genocide convention are required to prevent and punish genocide, which is why Western politicians and media have been so desperate to avoid the word despite overwhelming evidence. It speaks volumes of your agenda, that after Gaza has been all but destroyed, you choose to harp on about 'Israel's security'.
You are providing cover for Israel, parroting Israeli government talking points, and attempting to discredit posters calling out genocide. You are literally a genocide apologist.
steve-o1234@reddit
oooook? This just does not address anything i said.
If there is overhwelming evidence why have the UN nor the ICJ called it a genocide? and is it not weird that it ended with a peace deal (without israel being under and significant military pressure)
I am not 'harping' on Israels security. If you want to force them to disarm, it is only possible to do if their security is ensured. Otherwise they will fight tooth and nail to not let that happen. I am not saying they shouldnt, its a matter or pragmatism.
I am Literally not. But boy you must feel great about yourself throwing these accusations around.
I imagine it must feel good not having to think or put together logical realistic arguments. Much easier to just call people bad names and make emotionally based arguments about what 'should' happen instead of what is feasible.
setut@reddit
If you understood the process you'd know that these cases are long and drawn out, a verdict is not expected before 2027. Actually (surprise) Israel is one of the factors delaying proceedings as they've asked for an extra 6 months to prepare their rebuttal. The court probably accepted the delay because it's under immense pressure from the US.
What's weird about the 'peace deal'? Trump said jump, and Bibi jumped. Israel is a vassal state of the US after all.
Gaza is basically destroyed, and apologists like you are still reiterating Israeli government talking points going on about Israel's security. It's disgusting. It shows you have either fallen for the relentless propaganda that dehumanises Palestinians, or you are propagating it. Either way you should expect to be called out.
If the issue is pragmatism, then realpolitik dictates that Israel won't do anything unless the US compels them to. That's the elephant in the room, as the whole Western political class is trying to pretend that this isn't the US's genocide (it is). Without the US and a compliant EU this genocide would not be possible.
Nothing about this makes me feel good. If people are going to provide cover for a genocidal state then I'm going to call it out.
cesaroncalves@reddit
You call adjectives buzzwords, but don't deny they are correct.
And they are correct.
steve-o1234@reddit
They are not correct. Happy now?
Sloppykrab@reddit
So many buzzwords, why?
fl4tsc4n@reddit
Yeah, that's generally how nations are formed. The Katipunan were branded "terrorists" of their time, now they are heroes.
setut@reddit
yes yes, 'genocide' is just a leftist 'buzzword' to you. I get it.
Yes, what a good joke you're making. Australia 'recognised' Palestine, after 2 years of genocide, stipulating that the only defenders of the Palestinian people had to disarm as a condition. What an amazing deal that isn't biased at all in favour of a genocidal state. /s
Western nation states are the most prolific terrorists in history, but you keep referring to Palestinians as terrorists. I would expect nothing less from a genocide apologist.
Ok-Call-4805@reddit
Israel is the biggest hostile entity. If they refuse to even try and peacefully co-exist them neighbouring countries are entitled to defend themselves.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Israel was exactly where Hamas was before it gained recognition, Lehi, Irgun, territorist groups disbanded. When all of Palestine receives statehood Hamas disbands, simple. The precedent has been set.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Why would it? It didn’t start this war nor is it losing it.
notrororo@reddit
israelis are squatting landgrabbers. ethnonationalist colonizers all of them.
no war, no palestinian resistance without the theft of palestinian land in 1948.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
All that rubbish aside, Israel isn’t the one who started or is now losing this war, hence why they’re not the ones who should disarm.
Ok-Call-4805@reddit
Israel most definitely did start it. They're solely responsible for everything that has happened over there.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Not at all. Hamas attacked on Oct 7th, and are responsible for every single death the war has caused since then. If they hadn’t attacked, people wouldn’t have died on either side.
Ok-Call-4805@reddit
Hamas were founded in 1987. Israel has been murdering Palestinians since 1948. No occupation=no Hamas=no October 7th.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Arabs started attacking Israel in 1948 and never stopped. Hamas is just an extension of that. Israel has been defending itself since 1948.
Ok-Call-4805@reddit
Israel is built on stolen land. Of course the native people are going to fight back.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
So basically what you’re saying is that if Israel ceased to exist there’d be no more attacks? I guess that makes sense, since the destruction of Israel is indeed Hamas’ goal, and they’d have achieved it if Israel no longer existed.
Ok-Call-4805@reddit
Pretty much. Israel has been a terrorist state since it's inception and has never shown any willingness to peacefully co-exist with it's neighbors.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
It’s always been attacked by its neighbors. When it hasn’t, it’s been peacefully coexisting with them. Like after it signed a peace deal with Egypt and when Jordan stopped attacking it.
Ok-Call-4805@reddit
Maybe you should think about why it's being attacked. Imagine if I were to break into your house and claim it as my own because my ancestors lived there thousands of years ago. Would you just sit back and accept it or would you fight back?
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
It’s being attacked because it exists. No other reason.
That comparison is always insufficient to describe what happened. Best just stick to history. The Jews came, Palestinians rejected plans to peacefully coexist, the Arabs attacked Israel, Israel won the war. Israel, by winning the war it didn’t start, won the right to exist.
Ok-Call-4805@reddit
Fixed it for you.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
There’s no need to insert ignorance into what was an accurate statement. As I said, Israel won the right to exist when it won the war it didn’t start. The land is not stolen, it rightfully belongs to Israel since it won the war.
Ok-Call-4805@reddit
Alright. Say someone gives me your house, you fight me for it and I beat you, would you just walk away?
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Again, an inadequate example. Stick to history.
Ok-Call-4805@reddit
Seems like a perfect example. Land was given by those with no right to give it to people with no right to take it.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
That’s not true, though. Jews were being let in while the ottomans still controlled the land, and that continued when the British took over. Also of note is that the Jews were buying land from the Palestinians.
Ok-Call-4805@reddit
Buying land is different from forcefully displacing people
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
You’re right. And what only happened during the war.
Ok-Call-4805@reddit
It's been happening consistently since 1948
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Not really. Most Palestinians left Israel during the war. The rest are now no longer Palestinians but Israelis.
HourEast5496@reddit
All rubbish aside, Haldi-raam?? That means you will be cast aside right away. Znazi state is bunch of European colonizers and thieves who keep killing people. They started it all in the name of their schizo-sky-daddy. They need medical help and professional denazification.
fl4tsc4n@reddit
The purpose of the war, per netanyahu, was to eliminate hamas. Hamas is still there, israel has failed in its goal. Therefore israel lost.
loggy_sci@reddit
Hamas’s goal was to ignite a wider conflict with Israel, with Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis and Iran against Israel. They wanted to derail Israeli-Saudi normalization.
Your argument boils down to “Hamas wanted Israel to kill more Palestinians, which they did”, which is truly deranged. If that’s true then they should be chased out of Gaza.
Anyway, Israel could roll their tanks right back in any time they want. Pretty much beats out your moral victory cope.
fl4tsc4n@reddit
Who won the vietnam war? The US could have nuked vietnam at any time, and still got its ass royally beat
loggy_sci@reddit
Some of you are taking this ceasefire really hard. Seek help.
etha2007_@reddit
“The purpose of the war, per netanyahu, was to eliminate hamas. Hamas is still there, israel has failed in its goal. Therefore israel lost.”
This will be true if the war ends with Hamas still in power. But the war still isn’t over. There is a ceasefire right now, and I think Israel is banking on Phase 2 of the ceasefire with Hamas agreeing to leave Gaza (that way, they would have accomplished their mission in a quick and easy manner that results in no additional deaths).
However, if they can’t get Hamas to just give up and leave, I am certain that they will just roll into the rest of Gaza, occupy it all, and get rid of Hamas that way. They already have been pretty successful at destroying Hamas in the regions they occupy. The only places Hamas still operates from are the areas where Israel ISN’T present.
You actually have a pretty good comparison to Vietnam there. In Vietnam, the US was more than capable of rolling over North Vietnam conventionally. There were a bunch of political and strategic reasons why they didn’t just invade the North, but the end result was that the North simply outlasted the US’ willingness to stay and defend South Vietnam, after which the North easily rolled over the South.
The issue is that unlike North Vietnam (which the US could’ve invaded and dealt with, but simply chose not to) there is really no reason why the IDF would choose not to invade the rest of Gaza. There is no threat of foreign intervention if they do (like China in Vietnam). Their living hostages have been secured. The only thing they will have to worry about is Palestinian Civilians, who I don’t think they care too much about.
So Hamas can either agree to disarm and leave, or they can refuse and just get rolled over. Hamas can only win if Israel refuses to invade and occupy all of Gaza, and I just don’t see why Israel would do that.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
You can seriously look at the current state of the Gaza Strip and say with a straight face that Hamas is winning/won?
fl4tsc4n@reddit
Who won the vietnam war?
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
How much of Israel is Hamas occupying and how much of Gaza is Israel occupying?
fl4tsc4n@reddit
Dont you believe all of gaza is israel? So, theyre occupying a big chunk of it, according to Israel.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
I agree, the West Bank and Gaza are Palestinian and not part of Israel. So, again, how much of Israel is Hamas occupying and how much of Gaza is Israel occupying?
fl4tsc4n@reddit
So good. You recognize palestinian statehood. Israel is occupying a large chunk of Palestine, which stretches from the mediterranean sea to the river jordan. Invaders and occupiers have stolen and held land for decades, not unlike the french and American occupiers of Vietnam. Who lost.
Which youd know, if you weren't a kid-fucker.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
You’re wrong about geography, but that aside, you’re just ignoring the fact that you said Hamas was winning and yet there’s no evidence to support that. How on earth can you look at the current situation and say Hamas is winning/has won?
fl4tsc4n@reddit
Ive already explained it to you. Do you need me to use smaller words?
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Sure. Why not?
fl4tsc4n@reddit
Hamas's goals met
Israel's goals not met
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Hamas’ goals are to make Israel a pariah in the pursuit of eventually destroying Israel, no? So how did starting a war that devastated Gaza help destroy Gaza? Or do you think Hamas’ goals aren’t to free Palestine at all?
fl4tsc4n@reddit
Do you understand the difference between short term and long term goals? Do you consider israel a failed state because their vision of greater israel is unfulfilled?
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Greater Israel is not their long term goal. Survival is, hence why they do what they do.
So, what? You’re saying that Hamas lost in the short term but won in the long term? Is that what you’re saying? When it’s going to take years and years to rebuild all the devastation Hamas has wrought in Gaza, Hamas will be disarmed and disbanded, Gaza will be eventually governed by the PA, and Israel will still stand? Doesn’t sound like Hamas knows how to plan very well.
fl4tsc4n@reddit
Gonna need a source for greater israel not being the goal there fat boy
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Can’t prove a negative. Prove that greater Israel is Israel’s long term goal. And you don’t have the capacity to answer any of my questions. How does Hamas achieve its long term goals when it no longer exists?
fl4tsc4n@reddit
Naw bro, you first
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
You apparently didn’t read my first sentence. It’s all on you, buddy. Prove that greater Israel is Israel’s goal and answer my questions.
fl4tsc4n@reddit
I asked first, you are way behind.
blown-transmission@reddit
2 years and all israel did was genocide. Hamas is still there, violence doesn't work.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Then why do you think they agreed to a ceasefire when Israel was threatening to complete its occupation of Gaza?
blown-transmission@reddit
Israel agreed to a ceasefire because of external political pressure. You weirdly phrased that as if hamas was prolonging it.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
I’m asking about Hamas, not Israel. Why do you think they agreed to a ceasefire?
kiiwithebird@reddit
They have agreed to several ceasefires in the past few years, all of which were violated by israel.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Doesn’t answer the question. Why did Hamas finally agree to a ceasefire?
kiiwithebird@reddit
Probably the same reasons they agreed to it the last few times. The violence did nothing to change their willingness to enter ceasefires, as they literally did so since the beginning of the conflict.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
They rejected several recent ceasefires before accepting this last one. What changed, do you think?
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
Israel rejected the ceasefires and inserted poison pills that no rational person would ever agree to. Like demanding complete preemptive disarmament as a condition of discussing terms for peace. I.e. give up any means of defense now, so we can crush Gaza's will to live completely without resistance, and maybe we'll allow the population to be deported to Somalia and Sudan.
So, yes. Hamas rejected deals that placed absolutely no demands on Israel to stop the systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure and mass killing of civilians. Because they included no language whatsoever about Israel stopping their military action.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Hamas disagreed to three ceasefires this year alone. They refused to extend the ceasefire form Ramadan in January, they refused Witkoff’s truce, and proposed their own deal with a poison pill of its own. Hamas is far from innocent in rejecting ceasefire deals. What made them change, do you think?
I mean, it’s not like Israel has any restrictions on resuming military action if Hamas keeps breaking the deal like they’re doing now in not returning all the bodies of the hostages. Israel has always had the ability to resume military action, but Hamas just now accepted a peace deal anyway. Why do you suppose that is?
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
They rejected terms that would not have been a ceasefire at all. The terms demanded were that they would disarm completely, agree to exile, and Israel would be free to continue whatever military actions they felt were necessary. No rational person would agree to a ceasefire in which one party did not have to ceasefiring. The fact that these were even reported as ceasefire deals should be condemned as a failure of journalism.
Hamas objectively has agreed to multiple temporary ceasefires in order to carry out hostage exchanges. Hamas paused, Israel continued killing and destruction unabated as they always do
Both parties agreed to one step, but appear to have vastly different views on what any of the other step look like. Hamas agreed to exactly the same conditions they already agreed to in January, to disarm once the peace process is complete, Israel ends the occupation, and a temporary Palestinian led technocratic government is in place.
Israel already announced the next phase of destroying Gaza 3 days into the ceasefire, while killing more than a dozen people a day, not including their continued purge of the West Bank.
Hamas is not an innocent party, but you can' find a more dishonest negotiator than Israel. They literally assassinated or tried to assassinate negotiators on at least three separate occasions during active peace talks, and in one case, bombed the building where negotiations were supposed to take place with the publicly stated intent of killing the diplomatic parties. None of those are in dispute by any party, Israel proudly took credit for them.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Hamas paused and then wanted a total ceasefire when it still refused to give Israel what it wanted, hence why Israel refused a total ceasefire. Hamas knew this, and that’s why they rejected deals that gave Israel what it wanted until they were forced to accept this last time.
Hamas was never agreeing to disarm or not be part of a new Gaza before.
Hamas are a terrorist group. They’ve had multiple chances to surrender and agree to peace deals. They didn’t before, but they are now.
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
Because what Israel wants is for their victims to be completely defenseless, herded into smaller concentration camps, and the deported to a more distant war zone like Sudan.
That's literally what Israel was offering earlier this year. They were trying to bribe Sudan and Somalia, countries that are in the middle of their own crises, to resettle most of Gaza's population without any ability to provide for them.
Nope, sorry, they were willing to make that concession roughly a year ago. Israel refused to accept unless they did it immediately in the middle of the occupation, siege, and bombardment with absolutely no promise to stop.
Hamas has offered reasonable terms of surrender. Israel demands nothing short of suicide and the right to finish their publicly advertised project of emptying Gaza.
Anyone claiming that Hamas has not agreed to ceasefire terms and abided by the terms of past ceasefires is just lying to you and it's not even hard to prove because they were drawing up plans for concentration camps and ethnic cleansing at the same time.
GianfrancoZoey@reddit
Source?
The deal that was agreed is basically the same terms Hamas offered to blinken.
The holdup has always been Israel, and still is as they continue to violate it.
blown-transmission@reddit
To exchange hostages and make demands?
Thats the entire point of taking hostages. Why would they take hostage if they plan on fighting indefinitely?
They were always down for a ceasefire as long as they could maintain themselves and stay alive.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
I seem to remember them wanting more than just survival the last few rounds of negotiations. If their only goal was to demand survival, why start the war in the first place?
blown-transmission@reddit
To demand exchange with the palestinian hostages israel already had, to demand israel to lift their blockade, to weaken public support for israel inside out
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Israel only released about 250 people that it held before the war. Israel still controls the border crossings, physically this time, and can close them if Hamas doesn’t cooperate, and at least internal support for Israel’s existence isn’t shaken and Israel still has its strongest ally in the US. Doesn’t seem like Hamas gained much of anything from the war, unless you think they consider the lives of those 250 convicted terrorists far more valuable than the 43,000 or so civilian lives that were lost in the war.
blown-transmission@reddit
So many countries now openly condemn israel and are ready to recognize sovereignty of Palestine.
Many organizations openly call israel as a genocidal state
US supports israel, but US population finally turned on israel and especially younger people are much more opposed to israel.
Israel killed 40k people just to gain dead hostages and lose their reputation.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Can you tell me what tangible difference countries recognizing Palestine has on Palestinian lives?
Organizations don’t affect Israel at all.
Some people might not like Israel in the US but support is still strong enough that Israel’s security isn’t threatened.
Israel got back 168 of the hostages taken on Oct 7th.
So, Hamas’ goal is to destroy Israel. How did the war help achieve that, do you think?
manVsPhD@reddit
Violence does work. It got our hostages back. It degraded Hamas from a military capable of slaughtering Israelis en masse to a guerrila terror organization and a crime gang instead of a government. And it will disarm Hamas to the level that rival gangs could take on it if necessary.
blown-transmission@reddit
Hostages got back via diplomacy and ceasefire. Hostages actually got bombed and shot at during that violence period.
manVsPhD@reddit
Yeah, I’m going to bet my money that had there been no violence there wouldn’t have been a deal
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
Hamas offered a hostage deal on Oct 9, 2023. The whole point of taking hostages is to make a deal. That's literally the definition of a hostage situation. If there's no demand for exchange, the captives can't be defined as hostages.
blown-transmission@reddit
Without violence oct 7 wouldn't have happened from the start. Palestinians tried peacefully protesting while IDF shot them during march of return.
manVsPhD@reddit
You mean peacefully prepare for Oct 7 by testing the fence security, getting Israeli policy changed from shoot on sight to allow protestors to reach the fence that allowed Hamas to learn how to most effectively enact Oct 7
blown-transmission@reddit
Thats certainly a comment
kiiwithebird@reddit
Well, apart from the ones you killed
And promoted the IDF to a military that is actually slaughtering people en masse
DTFpanda@reddit
We are cooked as a society if "the hard way" of mass murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people is somehow justfiable
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
It’s funny. Now that Hamas is releasing more accurate data, the number of deaths is way lower than what was coming out during the war. Why do you think that is? Turns hundreds of thousands didn’t die.
kiiwithebird@reddit
That's literally not true, the numbers are still the same as they were months ago, only increasing: https://www.ochaopt.org/content/reported-impact-snapshot-gaza-strip-7-october-2025
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Hamas itself is saying only 9,500 people are missing under the rubble. https://xcancel.com/chalavyishmael/status/1977488392465314045?s=46&t=xn8BfyElJGFa6gUSR4UYaQ
kiiwithebird@reddit
Why is your source for that claim a weird AI generated "news" outlet with an extreme pro Israel bias? Also, no, per the article hamas did not say that.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
https://www.middleeasteye.net/live-blog/live-blog-update/gaza-civil-defence-9500-missing-under-rubble
Hamas did say that.
kiiwithebird@reddit
But your original source did not say that. Also, this source phrases it very different than your original source. This source says "9500 people are missing under the rubble". The other aource said "there are only 9500 people missing and there can't be possibly more than that".
Point is, it's near impossible to get an accurate estimate of how many people are currently missing or dead in an active war zone. Like every war in history, the actual number of deaths will be significantly higher than what is currently reported. But all of that doesn't even change the fact that at least 80k palestinians have been murdered by the IDF and if you think that's some kind of gotcha that it's only 80000 then idk what's wrong with you
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
If 80,000 even is correct (it’s probably more like 76,000), something like 30,000 were militants. So that’s 46,000 civilians. That’s civilian to combatant death ratio is similar to World War One. Therefore it reflects the reality that a war happened in Gaza, not a genocide.
kiiwithebird@reddit
Got a source on that? Because literally all credible sources claim a civilian to comvatant ratio of 80-95%. 30000 combatants also seems unlikely as 2/3 of the confirmed deaths were women and children.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
No credible source is saying 80-95% of the casualties were civilians or that 2/3 are women and children. As for the militant deaths, here: https://aijac.org.au/fact-sheets/fact-sheet-gazas-death-toll/
That is from January 2025, so it’s expected those numbers would be higher now. 30,000 is an estimate based on the casualty ratio in January.
kiiwithebird@reddit
Ok so the UN is not a credible source, but a "pro-Israel lobby group in Australian politics" that has been "lobbying the two Australian public broadcasters, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) and SBS to conform to a pro-Israel, pro-American, and anti-Arab agenda under the pretext of ensuring balance" somehow is. Makes sense.
source for quotes
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
The UN always cites the Hamas run MoH in their casualty figures and ratios. Always. So yeah, they’re not a credible source.
kiiwithebird@reddit
Literally no one is disputing the UN numbers except for Israel.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
You seem to have missed what I said. The. UN. Always. Cites. Hamas.
kiiwithebird@reddit
Oh no I didn't miss that at all, it's just a blatant lie. Even if the gaza ministey of health were Hamas and even if that were the only source the UN uses (neither of which is true), that argument still doesn't make any sense because no. One. Disputes. These. Numbers.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
The MoH is Hamas. There’s absolutely no disputing this. It’s a government organization, and the goverment of Gaza is Hamas. As for the UN supposedly not citing Hamas, give me an article or statement from the UN that states casualty numbers, and I’ll show you that it cites Hamas. Anything that states casualty numbers will do.
DTFpanda@reddit
I personally watched enough videos to know that this shit wasn't justified no matter how many actually died
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Sounds like you’ve only watched the curated Hamas videos then.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
They should have agreed to it as parts of terms, isn't that the point? Adding stipulations and conditions after the fact proves that it was a disingenuous process and that Israel and America cannot be trusted.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
The deal always had in it that Hamas would disarm and disband. If they didn’t agree to that part, they shouldn’t have agreed to any of it.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
No it didn't, you should know what you are talking about before commenting. People will just assume you are an idiot.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Trump’s peace plan, which Hamas agreed to, always had Hamas disarming. Literally just look it up.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
You are wrong or just a liar. The only peace plan that matters is the one that all sides agreed to and signed. Funnily enough Israel has already violated the deal a number of times.
Hamas has never agreed to disarmament before Palestinian statehood, this is an undeniable fact.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Your ignorance is troubling. Not sure you should really be commenting on this if you just don’t know what you’re talking about.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c70155nked7o.amp
The ceasefire came from this agreement. This is what Hamas agreed to, just like Israel.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
Here is an easy way to tell if you have been duped by propaganda, whose source shows an agreement signed by all parties involved and whose doesn't. You should really work on your critical thinking skills.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Man, you don’t know how diplomacy works, do you? Signed documents come at the very end.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
LMAO OK Mr Dunning Kruger, this isn't a mortgage application.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
And now you’re just talking to yourself. Cool?
Drab_Majesty@reddit
I know you are but what am I I believe you have found your level.
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
Still didn’t need to know what you say in the mirror, my guy.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
It's great that we no longer have to have a serious discussion, let me know when the bank faxes the signed papers over. 🤡 👟
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
I can see why you think not having a discussion is a bonus. You’re scared, hence why you went to personal insults. But don’t be too hard on yourself, being a dummy doesn’t always last forever.
Drab_Majesty@reddit
👻
Minimum-Enthusiasm14@reddit
See ya, scooby.
ReadingKing@reddit
I’ll wait till Israel disarms as a genociding party before believing any other party needs to disarm particularly in the context of resistance against illegal blockades and occupation.
CricketJamSession@reddit
Thing is palestinians are mot privilaged to make auch demands
Sure you can play it tough and let hamas stay armed and "resisting" but who is going to cry genocide as a result of that?
ReadingKing@reddit
A genocide is a genocide. It doesn’t not become a genocide because the victimized people have armed resistance groups. Look up the definition of genocide and what events and acts qualify for it, resistance does not excuse Israel.
CricketJamSession@reddit
I just thought that a population that went through genocide would want to overthrow the terrorist organization that picks up a fight they cannot win with the country they claim to have genocided them regardless if it benefits israel or not
But you here presenting it like palestinians are doing a favor if they support the disarmament of hamas and should only support it if israel act nice.
And im not even talking about the fact that hamas abuse and opress palestinians regardless of israel.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
US army now will participate in this genicide, hopefully both IDF and US army will face Hague for this shit. ICC please add Trump to your list
Funkliford@reddit
ITT people who are convinced a genocide is happening but would rather it continue than insist Hamas she disarmed. When Trump cares more about Palestinian lives, even if it's on a hypothetical level to boost his reputation as peacemaker, that's FUCKED.
OmegaTSG@reddit
This is threatening a violent disarment - aka an invasion into Palestine. You're crazy if you think this isn't an excuse to continuing exterminating people
Funkliford@reddit
Newflash, it's already been invaded. They lost the war they started. They have no caability to oppose Israel.
Fact: The peace plan calls for an Israeli withdrawal and an international security force, including Muslim nations, to secure the area and maintain peace. It would be a complete end to your genocide. It's an obvious choice, unless of course you don't give a damn about Palestinian lives and just see them as pawns in your little war against Israel.
Gubbinso@reddit
Has the security force been made yet? Or are you expecting Hamas to disarm before the security force is established, nevermind setting foot in Gaza?
Show me any instances in history of disarming that started and finished within days of agreeing to disarm without a security force in place.
Taokan@reddit
The past two years have been a whole lot of "look what you made me do".
Hamas was never going to give up short of Israel's willingness to genocide Palestinians. Israel was never going to back down until Hamas was disarmed. And as for the rest of the world - I know the terminally online like to think that world governments create foreign policy based on morality and ethics, but I'm unconvinced that's the case. I think we see the US and Europe and Russia and China abide human rights abuse CONSTANTLY ... it just makes for a good excuse when they want to escalate or deescalate a war to pin it on some moral platitude. Eases it down for the common man that has to fight in the war or help pay for it.
Kind of like how in Israel, and Palestine, and every one of the above named countries, permeates the idea that a sky daddy ultimately oversees justice eternal for all involved, and yet not one of these country's governments has said "hey you know what? We don't have to punish them, God will punish them".
stoiclandcreature69@reddit
How does disarming Hamas prevent genocide? They’re the only group on the ground trying to prevent genocide
HockeyHocki@reddit
How did Hamas try to prevent genocide?
Funkliford@reddit
Let's see, there's the fact the peace proposal calls for an international security force which doesn't include Israel. That's a pretty big one. There's the fact there actions are what instigated this war, the fact their refusal to surrender has ensured its continuation, and the plain and simple fact that they're powerless to oppose Israel. Nothing They've done has saved Palestinian lives.
layland_lyle@reddit
There is no genocide, stop with the propaganda as only your circle jerk think this.
A genocide the population decreases, it doesn't increase more than any EU nation. It's as stupid as saying your money got stolen but none is missing. 🤣
This is the president and top judge of the ICJ explaining that their ruling stated that there is no evidence of genocide. The ICJ are the top and only valid decision in the world on the matter.
https://youtu.be/T44DebmlvNs?si=GdZV2fAMvcl0M3lo
I bet before you respond you think you know better and post some dumb link of someone with no legal expertise and that isn't even an ICJ judge saying she is wrong.
HourEast5496@reddit
Lyle! Your pathetic YT propaganda video won't work anymore. You're the Nazis of this timeline, and none of your lies can hide that fact.
Zionism is Nazism and terrorism.
layland_lyle@reddit
It's from the BBC when they interviewed the judge and intelligent people can see that it is factual and genuine with their own eyes, whereas your lies are as genuine as a $3 bank note. LMFAO
Stop with the projecting when you name call, as Nazis hate Jews like you, which again any intelligent person knows.
HourEast5496@reddit
BBC where Rafi Berg controls the narrative on Israel and their Nazi crimes?
layland_lyle@reddit
The judge is saying it on an interview. You are so delusional you are denying her own words, which is beyond laughable.
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
That is literally nowhere in the definition of genocide. Genocide is legally defined as specifically acts committed with the intent of destroying a population in whole or in part. There is not a single word anywhere in the Conventions that requires the body count to exceed births. What you are doing is precisely the definition of genocide denial.
Israel is accused of genocide because they creating conditions of life calculated to bring about the destruction of the people of Gaza in whole or part with the explicitly and publicly stated intent of eliminating them as a group.
It is simply the objective reality that Gaza has been rendered uninhabitable. The population has no shelter, no ability to produce food, no economy, no educational facilities, and every single hospital has been either destroyed or significantly crippled by repeated attacks. Israel's intent is not in dispute. Both government and military leaders could not shut up about how much this was never just about Hamas and how they considered every living person a terrorist. Just the act of allowing this public incitement from the government and military constitutes the crime of incitement to genocide and the failure to prevent genocidal acts.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Damn sounds like a war zone, horrendous
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
No warzone has ever experienced this level of total destruction. Not Hiroshima or Nagasaki, not Dresden. Even the apocalyptic bombing campaigns during the Vietnam war were not followed up with demolition crews and armored bulldozers to finish the job.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Confidently incorrect. 90% of Stalingrad was completely destroyed
40k civilians dead in the first week alone at low estimates.
Gaza is only marginally smaller with double the population density
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
Which puts it roughly on the same ground as Gaza, assuming similar levels of destruction.
We don't have full totals of the dead as the current tolls only include deaths recorded in a hospital with cause of death attributed to military violence. Like Stalingrad the full death toll will not be known for several years.
Anyone claiming to know the total number of deaths is both lying and in active denial of historical atrocities. No one would claim that deaths in Ukraine only count if they received a death certificate at a local hospital, because that would be a stupid thing to say. Most of the people saying it about Gaza are not stupid, they are lying on purpose to obfuscate Israel's genocidal acts.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Precisely, so when you said 'no warzone has ever experienced this level of total destruction' you were either lying or ignorant🤷♂️
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
Considering Stalingrad was probably the worst atrocity visited on an urban landscape in the 20th century, that seems like a nitpick.
So your argument is that it's only potential equivalent is the single worst bombardment of WW2, the most destructive war in human history, but this time executed against what is essentially the world's largest concentration camp. Against a captive population that's been living under siege for nearly 20 years with no state, no military, no artillary, air force, or navy. Seems like you're more interested in undermining the atrocity than any concern with historical accuracy.
I doubt you could find anyone who would argue that the Siege of Stalingrad was the norm for war even in its time, let alone something a military should aspire to. Stalingrad is pretty much universally treated as an atrocity where the claim of genocide hinges primarily on how much they intended to kill civilians during the battle. Israel's intent is not really disputable due to the innumerable public announcements of intent from the top members of government along with televised interviews on military officers. They really could not shut up about how much they wanted to kill babies specifically. Those programs aired in Hebrew, it won't prevent them from being entered as evidence.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Its 430k destroyed or damaged. That's a big difference
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
That is the same phrasing commonly used for Stalingrad.
There are both aerial and satellite images for Gaza. The damage is so complete and so extensive it is visible from space.
The damage was not limited to collateral damage from bombardment. Israel contracted demolition crews and brought in D9 bulldozers to raze entire segments completely flat. This was done after combat finished in an area for the purpose of denying people a place to return.
Do you want to keep picking nits, or admit that comparing it to a more extensive version of the most intense urban bombardment in history is probably not a very good defense. Bowing out with grace is also an option if you'd prefer to stop digging this rhetorical hole you're in.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Not my my knowledge, feel free to back up that claim with a link
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
Why are you so stuck on this comparison? What point do you think you are making here?
HockeyHocki@reddit
So no link then? A damaged house is functional, a destroyed house is not. There is a fundamental difference.
You claimed 430k houses were destroyed in gaza, a straight up lie and your second one at that. Only one of us can bow out with grace and its not you
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
Define the exact line where damaged becomes destroyed and show a link that explains how this distinction was made for Stalingrad. Unless the distinction is actually pretty fuzzy, and most people use these terms interchangably depending on context.
If you're going to be pedantic, at least be smart.
Now are you going to make an actual point? Because this petty whinging over word choice is boring. It doesn't make you look clever, it looks like you can't finish reading a full sentence or complete a thought without getting distracted. It's annoying and will not win you any debate points.
HockeyHocki@reddit
Its not my responsibility to decide at which point a house is destroyed vs damaged. Been a while since i looked it up but for Gaza the UN make classifications using various metrics based on damage visible from satellite footage
https://unosat.org
layland_lyle@reddit
It's called consequence of action, like if your money is stolen, it is missing, if it isn't missing then there is no evidence or was stolen.
Also the top ICJ judge said no evidence of genocide but you avoided answering her statement.
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
You mean the ICJ judge who plagiarized a third of her ruling from a Likud linked thinktank and recently gave a speech about how honored she was to serve Israel in the End Times? Justice Sebutinde, devout Christian Zionist who believes that Israel is key to bringing Jesus back. That top ICJ judge?
As for consequence of action, it is clearly met if you just read the Genocide Convention. Genocide is specific acts committed with intent. One of which is to "create conditions calculated to bring about the physical destruction of the group in whole or in part." Objectively, Gaza has been rendered unsuitable for life with nearly all shelter, water sources, food production, and sewage systems, and medical clinics severely damaged. Objectively numerous members of government and military command are on record stating that their intent was to make the population suffer unsurvivable conditions until they begged to be sent into permanent exile, ideally to a place completely unable to support more refugees due to their own crisis like Sudan.
If you think that destroying every means of survival for the purpose of destroying a group doesn't support consequence of action for the crime of genocide, you are simply wrong about what genocide means. You will not find a single credible scholar of genocide, even in Israel, who does not believe that there is at minimum a very strong legal case.
layland_lyle@reddit
Typical far right extremist Hamas supporter, you make up more progress shit. She was the top judge and there is no evidence of any of the crap you just spewed out besides the delirium in your head. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Amazing how keyboard warriors think they know better than the world authority's explanation on what said works authority said and meant. You must be trolling because nobody can be that stupid and deluded.
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
If you're going to call someone a liar you should take ten seconds to Google first.
Sebutinde's statements about Israel were made in public and recorded. The words she said are not in dispute. The Internation Commission of Jurists submitted a request to the president of the International Court of Justice for investigation and to have her removed from cases regarding Israel.
"My country disowned me after Israel–Gaza ruling - Sebutinde | Monitor" https://www.monitor.co.ug/uganda/news/national/my-country-disowned-me-after-israel-gaza-ruling-sebutinde-5153060
"ICJ communication to the International Court of Justice urging the investigation of the Court's Vice-President | ICJ" https://www.icj.org/icj-communication-to-the-international-court-of-justice-urging-the-investigation-of-the-courts-vice-president/
The plagerism was demonstrated with a line for line analysis showing that much of her decision was lifted word for word without citation from neoconservative pro-Israel thinktanks like the Hudson Institute. If you don't trust the source, you can pull up the documents yourself and find the copied sentences.
"ICJ president accused of plagiarism in dissenting opinion on Israeli occupation | Middle East Eye" https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/icj-president-accused-plagiarism-dissenting-opinion-israeli-occupation
Sebutinde was the sole dissenting opinion, one that was extreme, unsupported by case law, and didn't even cite the sources she did use. She may be a fine jurist in other respects, but she is not a neutral arbiter. She certainly isn't "the world authority" she is one judge on a panel of 10 who all came to the opposite conclusion. Even the Israeli judge didn't go to the extremes she did.
"Statement on Recent Remarks by ICJ Vice-President Judge Sebutinde" https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-on-recent-remarks-by-icj-vice-president-judge-sebutinde
veryflatstanley@reddit
What are you even arguing at this point, the fact that it’s technically not a genocide but instead a textbook ethnic cleansing? It’s wild to downplay this when we have it all on tape, what Israel has done is indefensible. The worst part is that it’ll be celebrated as a win when things go back to the status quo of occupation
layland_lyle@reddit
Saying programs sound notes does may make it fact. Ethnic cleansing and herbicide are linked and intertwined in international law.
I_Hate_E_Daters_7007@reddit
There's no single text in international law posits that genocides are measured by population decline
layland_lyle@reddit
It's called consequence of action. Also the top judge at the ICJ said that there is no evidence of genocide and explained that in the video.
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
There are various legal experts and orgs agreeing that it is a genocide. One of them the IAGS. Which is literally made up of legal experts specifically on the topic of genocide. There are even some Israeli orgs who agree. So, no, it’s not only their ‘circle jerk’ thinking this.
Also the ICJ case is still ongoing. There was only an interim ruling but that doesn’t matter much since that was over a year ago and a lot has changed since then. For example Israel failed to comply with the ICJs provisional manner issued in that same interim ruling. Which the court issued because it agreed it’s plausible Israel's acts could infringe rights of the Palestinian people protected by the Genocide Convention. The ruling isn’t expected until late 2027/early 2028.
layland_lyle@reddit
Anti Israel groups are not the authority, the ICJ is and they made a ruling, and of.
Stop redefining what the court meant, the judge explained what the ruling meant, yet you think you know better than her. LOL
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
They’re not anti Israel groups.
You’re redefining what the court said. The ruling wasn’t to determine if there is or isn’t a genocide. It was to decide whether the Palestinian people have a plausible right to be protected from genocide and whether South Africa has the plausible to bring a case. Donoghue specifically stated this in the interview you posted. Following that she also specifically stated that the court didn’t decide if the claim Israel is committing genocide was plausible. Meaning there was simply no decision on the matter at all. Neither for nor against it. She then goes on to say that the order also states there IS a risk of irreparable harm to the right of the Palestinians to be protected against genocide.
Also it’s ’end of’ not ‘and of’.
NuggetoO@reddit
You’re actually redefining what the courts said , no ruling means no legal finding of genocide. The ICJ hasn’t said Israel is committing genocide, and it hasn’t said it isn’t either. That means, legally, the default position is “not proven.”
Courts don’t assume guilt just because a case exists. The burden of proof lies with the accuser (South Africa), and until the ICJ issues a final judgment confirming genocide, it’s legally treated as unproven , which defaults to no genocide established.
MrCharmingTaintman@reddit
Where did I say otherwise?
Hesitation-Marx@reddit
Piss off, Tony Blair
stonkmarxist@reddit
The fact that you think the ICJ has made a ruling shows how little you actually know about this and should perhaps just stop talking
I_Hate_E_Daters_7007@reddit
When looking at these pictures it's important to bear in mind that this was a high-tech military with most sophisticated weaponry fighting an organization with zero airpower,non existent naval equipment, heavy weapons limited to a few RPGs and with no tanks, no IFVs and basically no military vehicles at all...all this happened within a strip of land at most 14 kms away from Israel's borders....Every single spot in Gaza is reachable from Israel in a matter of minutes with actual precision weapons....Ask yourself: why "the most sophisticated a s powerful" military in the Middle East didn't use that sort of FPV drones perfected by Ukraine in its multi-year war against Russia..Such drones are cheap, highly precise, can target individual fighters, have an operational range of 20 km and a top speed of 300 km/h and the sole way to effectively counter them is through electronic warfare systems which Hamas does not possess ..Ask yourself why instead of these advanced, specific and highly discriminating weapons this sophisticated nation state military chose to utilize 2000lb bombs as their go-to weapon and drop them from fighter jets, a system limited to block-level precision and with a significant delay from detecting the enemy to the actual response....Even in the assassination of Yahya Sinwar, the quadcopter was only there to confirm the target although it could also have carried the type of small explosive charge constantly used in Ukraine.... Instead of just using the drone to shoot him, the entire building was destroyed with bombs and tank shells..The collateral damage is not a side effect of the war...The collateral damage is the primary purpose of the war. The armed enemy is the excuse used to justify this actual goal....Mariupol after heavy fighting between Ukraine and Russia is still less destroyed than Gaza. .During the siege of Mariupol Ukrainian troopshad good stocks of anti-tank weapons, military vehicles like the T-72 tanks also operated by Russia and Ukraine's own BTR-4 IFVs, as well as occasional support from helicopters and in the aftermath of this prolonged and ferocious fighting..even after Russia's extensive use of artillery in a conflict in which Russia deployed its most lethal weapons Mariupol was less destroyed than Gaza is now...If the "most moral military" which prides itself with rooftop knocking warnings and other measures to reduce civilian casualties in fact causes more devastation and civilian casualties than the Russian military, then it is clear that the stated nature and claimed way of fighting the war are in fact the precise definition of a genocide, a lie disseminated with a complicit media to hide the true nature of the conflict and the military goals regarding the civilian population of Gaza
cambeiu@reddit
American Service-Members' Protection Act
They will literally bomb the Hague before allowing that to happen.
AlarmingShower1553@reddit
am i missing something? cause it sure sounds like the jurisdiction originates from the ICC, the potus could only act on their command
Dr-Jellybaby@reddit
The US doesn't recognise the ICC so that wouldn't be the case anyway. It's an awkward sentence but they just mean if the ICC themselves or someone on their behalf is detaining a US citizen they can bomb them.
Winjin@reddit
Also it's "US Citizen or their Ally" so basically "as long as you're US ally, Hague doesn't apply to you at all"
SamuelClemmens@reddit
The US considers the ICC (legally) on par with a Russian or Chinese court.
They can make whatever ruling they want, but if you try to enforce laws on American we will tell you to get stuffed and if you kidnap American soldiers you are going to get bombed.
Which honestly is legally correct. Why on earth would a US citizen be held to the laws passed by other governments we don't vote for?
We have our own courts and our laws against war crimes.
ABecoming@reddit
Clearly, but I don't know what.
The act is a US law, passed in the US Congress.
Which means it originates in the US Congress and not the ICC.
AlarmingShower1553@reddit
thanks.
i misread and skipped the "by" after imprisoned which alters the meaning objectively to the US and extensively by refers to the ICC
cambeiu@reddit
Yes you are, as the text sounds nothing like that. Read the whole article including the reactions from the EU and the ICC itself to the law if you have any doubt.
LobsterG25@reddit
And it doesn’t even stop at service members. Trump could use that act to rescue Netanyahu if he ever ended up getting detained and sent to The Hague.
namikazeiyfe@reddit
The Israeli government would do that themselves, they don't need trump or America to invade the Hague should Bibi be detained and sent to Hague. Israel like USA do not recognise the Hague. Why do people keep thinking that the ICC is anything but a court that only arraigns those who are not playing nice with the West and aren't a nuclear power?
LobsterG25@reddit
There would be a big difference between how Europe would act to America, the world’s most expensive military, waltzing into a foreign nation to escort out a legally detained person. Versus if Israel tried to send their diaper force failures with no air support because that’s provided to them by the U.S. and Europe.
stonkmarxist@reddit
Sabre-rattling in law form
Striking_Branch_2744@reddit
That's fucked up
Lanky_Cobbler886@reddit
I learn something new every day. I love the internet.
PomegranateHot9916@reddit
if you ask me, any nation that didn't already denounce and cut all ties and trade with Israel, is complicit in the genocide.
and if you ask me, a government that is complicit in genocide is illegitimate and should step down or be removed.
Israel and USA should have been starved out until they pay reparations for their destruction and murder.
but that didn't happen, it took years before European politicians even came out and denounced Israel. but they didn't do any more than that from my recollection.
they ought to just resign in shame.
their inaction speaks volumes of their position. they don't mind a little genocide.
Bodach42@reddit
Trump does have to dehumanize his troops so they don't have a problem invading their own country so it is a great opportunity.
Private_HughMan@reddit
Shocker: his peace deal is built upon sand. He was so eager to get a deal settled before the Nobel deadline that he and his team ignored the fundamental issues to follow.
CricketJamSession@reddit
He still managed to achieve more than anyone in this conflict
meister2983@reddit
Credit is where credit is due. He managed to get a ceasefire.. twice.
Alternative is just continued carnage
5minArgument@reddit
Another way to look at it was the first peace deal was a hollow backdrop for his campaign. Netanyahu backing off for a month was all that was.
The second, a naked attempt by trump to get a peace prize.
meister2983@reddit
Sure, of course he is dominated by selfish motivations. But his results are better than others here.
5minArgument@reddit
Depends what we mean by results.
It was quite obvious the Israelis played the part of ‘reasonable client state’ for American cameras during the election specifically to get Trump elected.
They did dance knowing their investment would payoff and there would be no pushback for immediate re-escalation there after.
Similarly, this peace is certain to be another ‘piece’ of theater. Great that the hostages are released, but the bombings, blockades and occupation will continue. TBD if there will be any actual peace.
meister2983@reddit
I suspect bombings will decrease given less justified. Other two agreed. Hamas seems unlikely to fully agree to trump plan so justification continues to exist
Drab_Majesty@reddit
You are wrong or just a liar. The only peace plan that matters is the one that all sides agreed to and signed. Funnily enough Israel has already violated the deal a number of times.
Hamas has never agreed to disarmament before Palestinian statehood, this is an undeniable fact. Hamas gave
setut@reddit
Oh wow, didn't expect Trump to move the goalposts. /s
ShowBoobsPls@reddit
Not really. It was in the deal. Hamas must return the hostages and disarm.
setut@reddit
Hamas never agreed to disarm.
Siliste@reddit
Hamas gave Israel a reason on October 7 to invade and commit those atrocities. Without October 7, Israel wouldn’t have had a reason or the international support it got. And about this peace plan it feels like many people on Reddit haven’t even read its stages. It’s pretty clear that after phase one, Hamas will just say ‘go fuck yourself,’ refuse to continue, and keep provoking. Then, of course, the U.S. and Israel will just go back to the same atrocities they were committing before
Xtrems876@reddit
You seem to be unaware of the difference between the words "reason" and "excuse". There never is a reason to commit attrocities.
Siliste@reddit
Since you’re that smart, can you explain this to me? Before October 7, Israel had been attacked for two decades but didn’t invade. If you had followed this war from the beginning, you’d see that Hamas gave them the reason. Before that, Israel couldn’t invade because Hamas had allies and a powerful backer Iraq. But after October 7, Hamas handed Israel the justification to invade, which also allowed the U.S. to bomb Hamas’s allies so they wouldn’t interfere in case you forgot about that.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Again, you conflate 'reason' and 'excuse'.
Siliste@reddit
I said, can you explain that? Because before, they weren’t invading just limiting themselves to bombing each other. October 7 gave them a reason, not an excuse. If you think it’s an excuse, try to clarify.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Holding up October 7th to justify atrocities in Gaza is an effort to excuse Israel from responsibility for conducting atrocities. You using it as an excuse makes it an excuse.
Excuses deflect responsibility. Reasons do not.
Siliste@reddit
October 7, Hamas literally gave them a reason not an excuse. They posted videos of beheadings, rapes, and killings, which gave Israel international approval to carry out those atrocities. Literally, in the first week, what was the world’s narrative? “Hamas killing German citizens.” The U.S. and a few others gave Israel global approval to do what they did. Hamas, by posting those videos, did Israel a huge favor they handed them the justification on a silver platter. What you’re writing sounds like a radical excuse trying to downplay what Hamas did and spread that idea. Refresh your mind go on Internet Archive or Wayback Machine, look up reports from three days after October 7, and you’ll see hours of footage of what Hamas did. Watch it and then say it wasn’t a reason.
namikazeiyfe@reddit
Are those Hamas videos still on the internet? I would like to show it to some who are doubting that Hamas targeted innocent civilians on October 7
Siliste@reddit
Here is a link. I’m just posting it from Internet Archives without even looking it's a playlist from October 7. There’s a lot to, you can check out whichever one you like just search October 7 or navigate archives to news platform about October 7.
https://archive.org/details/october-7-docs/October+7th+%E2%80%93+Voices+of+Pain%2C+Hope%2C+and+Heroism.mp4
namikazeiyfe@reddit
Thank you 🙏🏽
Siliste@reddit
In Facebook, Twitter, or use Tor web browser and look it up if you’re concerned about your security, use the Wayback Machine
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Sorry, what?
Siliste@reddit
Here’s what I mean when I say anyone can be exposed take your account as an example.
https://web.archive.org/web/20250716073700/https://www.reddit.com/user/TraditionalGap1/
You can do the same with any website and see people's initial reaction deleted videos, comment and etc.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Do you not understand that random Reddit comments are not examples of international approval?
Siliste@reddit
I'm not talking only the reddit, I send you the link you can dig as much as you want and as deep as you want.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Unless it's a link that's germane to international approval, save yourself and myself the wasted effort.
Siliste@reddit
See, it’s so easy to expose people you give them everything, but nope, total waste of time. Like, you know you’re going to get slammed down with your idiotic points, yet you still keep pushing that nonsense…
TraditionalGap1@reddit
You didn't 'give me everything'. You've given me nothing. Do you not know what the words 'international approval' means? Did you forget the topic of conversation? Do you really believe that what u/Siliste or u/TraditionalGap1 shitpost on reddit represents international opinion?
Siliste@reddit
I gave you a link to the Wayback Machine and said you can look at international opinion on Reddit check Reddit, Facebook, or any news platform there. But no, you’re panicking, trying to get out of this situation while knowing you can’t and just keep pushing your terroristic BS.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
I'm not panicking, I'm wondering how someone intelligent enough to use the internet thinks that reddit comments are representative of international opinion.
Siliste@reddit
I mentioned Reddit as an example it has millions of users. You can look there, and dig even deeper on other sites too, I even provided a link to the Wayback Machine, here, you made an excuse of not wanting to.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
It's not my job to prove your points. That's your job.
Siliste@reddit
Listen, we can keep playing this back-and-forth game, but I’ve literally provided all the proof. You’re only talking. We could go on like this forever, so let’s just cut it out.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
You're provided none of the proof.
I can just as easily say to you 'open up wayback and look at articles condemning Israeli atrocities' and claim that I've provided you with 'all the proof'. Are you going to accept thay level of 'proof' from me?
Siliste@reddit
As I said, go use Internet Archive or Wayback Machine look at the comments from three days or even a day after October 7. Check Reddit too and refresh your mind. The duality of people can easily be exposed
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Random reddit comments aren't international approval
TraditionalGap1@reddit
A reason is an explanation as to why something occurred. An excuse is an explanation as to why blame for something should be assigned to someone besides the actor.
Beer_Gynt@reddit
International support? Buddy, I'm not sure what you think is going on lately, but the world is done with it.
Siliste@reddit
Same as with the other guy prove me wrong. Before October 7, Israel was responding to attacks without invading. After October 7, they got a reason and international support. The one that actually acted was the USA, bombing Hamas allies if you forgot. Before that, Israel wouldn’t have had the guts to launch such an invasion because there wouldn’t have been international backing. But in the first couple of months, they had it and that was enough for them. After that, the USA, trade with the Middle East, and the EU did the rest.
Gleneroo@reddit
WTF this sentence means in the article ?
Unless I am not informed, that seems completely false.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
Multiple sources are reporting the same thing.
Gleneroo@reddit
Do I understand this means Trump supported Hamas taking these actions ? I am very surprised !
waiver@reddit
While en route to the Middle East earlier Monday aboard Air Force One, Trump responded to a question from a reporter about reports of Hamas rearming themselves.
"Well, they [Hamas] are standing because they do want to stop the problems, and they've been open about it, and we gave them approval for a period of time," Trump said.
AccelRock@reddit
Someone needs to be in control. If they make a deal with hamas then hamas need to maintain a limited amount of control over the population to ensure no one goes rouge or begins civil violence. I know it's a weird concept given the primary threat has been from the IDF. But without law and order then they put so many things at risk. They should arrange for UN peacekeepers to step in until Palestine re-establishes control free from hamas.
waiver@reddit
The IDF didn't want to let anyone take control, which is why they targeted Gazan police and public services whenever they appeared, avoided taking responsibility for security despite their obligation as an occupying power, and provided funding and arms to criminal gangs.
UnfortunateHabits@reddit
Gazan police, and all its public services were Hamas. And Israel withrew vrom gaza completly in 2005.
Nothing you said is true
waiver@reddit
Yeah, but not combatants, you can't just go around killing firefighters because their paycheck comes from a Hamas government. Use some common sense.
They literally invaded Gaza and are occupying it. That should be obvious to anyone.
UnfortunateHabits@reddit
They litteraly haven't. Read again, you just spit falsehoods.
They withrew in 05, no occupation until now. Litteraly until yesterday, when the fighting stopped and territory transitions from warzone to occupied status.
waiver@reddit
I don't understand why you think fighting needs to stop everywhere for a territory to be occupied, the only requirement is "effective control" that Israel has held over the majority of the strip since 2023 except during the ceasefires, but people who truly understand International Law aren't usually pro-Israel for that reason.
UnfortunateHabits@reddit
Because you don't understand what modern war is.
MPs dont enforce marshal law, while an active bombing campaign is rolling.
A warzone, or front line, isn't "occupied", its in transition into occupation, behind the front lines, when war isn't fully active, is where the concept of occupied can exist.
Before that its litteraly life or death. There are no civil rights, no law, no civility, only ROE. You either a combatant, a suspect or a civilian.
In an active warzone, every other concept is vanished.
Pray you never know that.
Sometimes the active warzone, the front is just 100 meters wide, where normalcy is just behind it, and sometimes it streches for miles.
To talk about "occupation" during active combat is to be really off base.
waiver@reddit
The idea that “occupation” only begins after combat ends is misleading. Occupation, legally speaking, starts when a territory falls under the authority of a hostile force, even if fighting continues. Civilians in warzones aren’t stripped of rights; they’re protected by international law, even when those protections are violated. That’s the difference between chaos and accountability.
UnfortunateHabits@reddit
You quote books while bullets are flying. You have a severe misunderstanding of the mechanics.
Im sorry, this is kinda an autistic response that ignores the actual practical complexity of reality.
waiver@reddit
lol what bullets, the ones used by Israeli snipers shooting at kids?
Yeah, we should throw international law to the garbage because of your scenario which doesn't match the reality of the Gaza conflict at all.
GianfrancoZoey@reddit
Honestly a bit shocked that people are still using this line when everyone knows it’s sophistry by now.
They ‘withdrew’ in that they didn’t have massive numbers of soldiers remaining, they maintained control over the borders/seas/water/fuel though.
Funkliford@reddit
Well, considering said fuel and water was Israeli yeah. Maybe they shouldnt have dismantled theor own infrastructure to repurpose as rockets. The blockade, which was also enforced by Egypt, which you guys like to leave out, was in response to Hamas attacks.
GianfrancoZoey@reddit
How do you expect them to do that while their occupying power restricted concrete imports and destroyed their only source of power?
You people always love to bring up Egypt or Qatar or some other American client state as if that means anything. To those who think all Muslims are the same maybe this holds some weight.
UnfortunateHabits@reddit
Why are minimizing it? They also evacuated 60K settlers, and abandoned settelments.
They stopped imposing marshal law, giving palestinians full civil autonomy.
That a big fucking deal. The blockade didn't start on day 1, it started after hamas election and the bombing campaign against Israeli civilians.
These are warring nations, so yeah, blockade, but no occupation until oct 7
AccelRock@reddit
Yeah of course we know IDF and Israel have their own agenda.
But when it comes to any real deal making someone will be advising Trump that a force is required to maintain control. Unfortunately they shot themselves in the foot by leaving no other options than hamas. So in this case it makes sense why trump said what he said.
steve-o1234@reddit
agreed. This makes sense. As bad as hamas is (and they are very bad) a power vacuum is the worst possible situation right now. Someone needs to be in control in order for a power transfer to even be possible.
Melodic_Mulberry@reddit
Netanyahu also supported Hamas in the 2007 election because it would delegitimize Palestine, leading to plausible casus belli for Israel.
Gleneroo@reddit
Yes Netanyahu wants war. Not (only) to stay in power, he always thought like that. So there should be no negotiations. This means there should be no negociators. There should be only terrorists. That is the perfect situation. Then the world agrees war is necessary. OK he has always done that.
But Trump is not the same.
Melodic_Mulberry@reddit
I mean, they're not the same person, but Trump is very explicitly a right wing nationalist who constantly supports and threatens war. They're the same in every way that counts except the circumstances they're in. If we had a U.S. state that was all Native American, which we'd been slowly stealing land from and terrorizing for 80 years, where some of the residents had leveraged the resulting fear and anger to seize power and militarize, you can bet your ass that Trump would be fondling those nuclear launch codes like he does his uninterested wife's tits.
Gleneroo@reddit
Yes, you are right. Same personality on some points, different situation.
This is a smart take.
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
To be fair, nothing he says can be taken seriously. Trump is barely coherent and often responds to questions with something completely unrelated. Just a couple weeks ago, he responded to a question about the assassination of a personal acquaintance by slurring vaguely about his new ballroom. The man sounds like he's sundowning.
BabylonianWeeb@reddit
Here's video for him saying that
https://www.reddit.com/r/war/s/P8uh8nLWAq
Pristine-Ant-464@reddit
That’s what he said to the press today. It was surreal lol.
steve-o1234@reddit
I just watched a video of him saying it. He didnt exactly endorse the killings specifically. He basically said that there couldnt be a power vacuum so he gave hamas the green light to police / control gaza temporarily. I am not saying it is right or wrong, or feasible. that is just what he said.
I_Hate_E_Daters_7007@reddit
He legitimized Hamas when he compared the gangs it's battling to those in Venezuela and South America
I_Hate_E_Daters_7007@reddit
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/trump-says-not-too-bothered-about-hamas-killing-dozens-of-gang-members-since-ceasefire/
fl4tsc4n@reddit
Broken clocks are right twice a day
ThatHeckinFox@reddit
The peaciest peace treaty that ever peaced!
The whole thing stank from a mile away, but now I see why. This whole charade was just meant to create a cassus belli
ActualSpiders@reddit
I thought Trump had personally charmed them all into laying down their weapons, converting to christianity, and signing up to dance in the Charlie Kirk "real" Superbowl halftime show?
Was Trump not being completely truthful?
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