Are these good reasons for preferring a move back to Canada over choosing Finland/Sweden/Norway?
Posted by No-Ring-699@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 36 comments
So trying to make a longer story short. Dutch citizen guy in my twenties, but a lot more than that to it, I:
-Am a third culture kid who not only is 50% Korean but parents left the Netherlands around 10 years old and constantly traveled for work for around 6-7 years. Knew what a frequent flier card was before I knew what a debit card was. Didn't have a traditional Dutch upbringing for this reason.
-After doing a HS exchange year in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, where I actually felt more at home and integrated, chose to complete a full 4 years bachelor degree in Toronto, made pretty much only local Canadian born friends/girlfriend (we since split up) to the point that they often forgot I wasn't born there.
-Moved back to the Netherlands 1 year into post-study work visa due to the state of the job market and savings running out, nothing to do with Toronto or Ontario itself, where I genuinely loved living all seasons. Even now 3 years later, I would say that my friend group is still 90% from there.
-Ended up starting my own online startup business 2 years ago in the Netherlands that makes me more than enough to comfortably live off anywhere in the world. It's a B2B service company and I deal with a location and time zone independent team of both freelancers and employees, some of whom are actually Canadian.
-Due to extra skilled work experience in the Netherlands in my first year back, and learning French as young as 10, qualify easily for both the Quebec and federal point system.
Also important:
-I hate hot weather (anything above 20C and I go crazy) so you wouldn't see me moving to say Spain, Thailand or Mexico. The whole traditional digital nomad at the beach thing therefore doesn't really interest me. Unfortunately most cheap countries are hot countries.
-I really care about integrating somewhere where I live, if I move somewhere, I want to make local friends, want to speak in the local language, care about local issues, date locally.
-Do not like very crowded dense European cities such as Amsterdam, Rome, Barcelona, Lisbon etc, also do not care too much about say going to museums, seeing old buildings or needing public transit.
-Have no real problem with 'American' elements and actually like tons of open space, driving, fishing, hiking and camping. Find malls convenient and always wanted to have a single family home in a nice suburb.
-Want a combination of vibrant and bustling city but in a few hours (5-6 hour drive max) be able to be in true wilderness and go camping.
I'm at a point where after 3 years in the Netherlands, I really want to move back to Canada, be it to more Southern Ontario or somewhere like Alberta or the Atlantic provinces (which is a region I've grown to love). My parents strongly ask why I don't just move to Norway, Sweden or Finland instead but for me:
-English and French present a much easier integration for me than learning a whole new language that I will probably then speak with a strong accent and again possible prejudice. Yes I know these countries have very good English levels but I don't want to depend on it. I don't want to be approaching my 30s and spending 1-2 years just learning a new language to have a normal social life.
-I quite like the way I was able to more casually make friends/date in Canada and then slowly expand the relationship. I personally (know a lot of people disagree) find this easier than the European ride or die mentality of making friends.
-I like Canada's multiculturalism, it being apart from obviously first nations, metis and inuit, a land of immigrants, and the fact that there is no real 1 definition of who is a Canadian.
I find that a lot of European countries, even to other European immigrants, have a strong us vs them mentality where even if you choose to live there 10 years, you'll never be seen as one of them. In fact as a third culture kid growing up between EU countries I noticed this very strongly and that was still at HS level and speaking each language (French and Spanish).
-In Canada there is a lot of bigger cities with a lot of things happening and that are international, that are still close to stunning nature (E.g. Calgary or Halifax), as well as travel opportunities in the US.
This concept is much harder to find in Europe even Scandinavia. Looking up cities like Olou just didn't make me very excited.
-Lower taxes and if things sort themselves about tariffs, access to a far larger US market with the same language. I tried looking up being self-employed in Norway and it looked super difficult and expensive.
-Canada has a higher population, larger and more diverse market (both jobs and businesses) and more happening.
am I overlooking something really important about Scandinavian countries (excluding Denmark and Iceland)? Can someone give me more of an independent idea as to what is a good choice to make?
-
notgivingupprivacy@reddit
Canadian who is now living in Norway - I’d choose Canada bc running a business in Norway is NOT business-friendly. The tax will kill it.
Also Norwegians don’t really care about “what you look like” to call someone Norwegian. Unless they are realllly racist - but that is in the rare.
KezaBoo@reddit
If I were you I would think about going back to Ontario. I am from Edmonton, studied in Halifax, then lived and worked in Toronto and Vancouver. Out of all those cities I felt the most socially fulfilled in Toronto. People are just really open there. Vancouver was a dead zone for me and I found Halifax a little too small and isolated.
5T6Rf6ut@reddit
Do you have a job offer or permission to work in Canada?
KezaBoo@reddit
Canada has a points based immigration program and op sounds like they would meet all requirements especially speaking both official languages.
ContributionSafe3545@reddit
I always find it strange when people complain about the lack of social contacts when usually the reason is they just don’t invest enough themselves.
Go to Canada, go to Sweden, goto Denmark, everywhere you will run into the same problem.
Secondly you romanticise your past to much, people there started a family etc you won’t find your past situation there.
Sorry I am not howling with the other wolves in the bush.
KezaBoo@reddit
This isn't really true. There are a lot of barriers to entry in tight knit countries. I'm Canadian, went to university in Denmark and made exactly 0 Danish friends despite studying with them every single day. They have been with the same group of friends finder bjornhavn (kindergarten) and actually label people as "non-Danish ethnicity" which is very exclusionary. I made Swedish, Finnish, German, French friends that I still keep in touch with but the Danes were entirely closed off.
princesspomway@reddit
As a half Asian, Canada will always feel more welcoming. I just gave birth to my half Asian child in NL and am moving back to Canada for this very reason. Europe will always see you as "other".
Your parents are gonna be parents. They want you close by - just in case something happens and they can help you. As to why they are adamant for you vs your brother it might be because you're younger (or a girl idk). You gotta live your own life and make your own decisions. Making choices based on what others think is best for you will only create regret later on in life.
You are 29? you can also apply for a working holiday visa for a year or two to see if you like it with less paperwork or commitment.
EulerIdentity@reddit
You’d be hard pressed to find an ethnicity or combination of ethnicities that isn’t present in Toronto and “Canadian” isn’t an ethnicity the way that Dutch or Finnish is. If you’re concerned about the locals thinking “you’ll never really be one of us,” then that’s absolutely a point in favor of Canada over any European country, especially Toronto although that’s also true of other large Canadian cities.
Brynns1mom@reddit
I think Canadians think of themselves as an ethnicity. Even though I get your point.
KezaBoo@reddit
I'm Canadian, I think of myself as British and German because my parents were immigrants, like the majority of people who live in Canada. Unless you are indigenous or 3rd gen Canadian I feel like nearly everyone I know identifies by their parentage first. I know very few people who would classify "Canadian" as an ethnicity. We just assume everyone belongs.
brokerlady@reddit
you haven't said where they live!! or why they are so keen on Scandinavia. sounds like you've decided on Canada. you're old enough and smart enough to make your own decisions about these things ;).
hellovatten@reddit
Honestly I wouldn't recommend the Nordics if you want to truly fit in. I'm a white European living in Sweden and I've been feeling more xenophobia lately, it wasn't like this back in 2018.. People simply seem not as welcoming of foreigners anymore; we're looking to move away hopefully next year.
ImmediateCoach8073@reddit
Jesus first world problems, just fucking figure it out
number1alien@reddit
That's the entire point of this sub.
xxolanyc@reddit
That’s why he is here, to figure it out. He is asking for advice 🙄
Gilgamesh-Enkidu@reddit
Norwegian/Swedish are ridiculously easy to learn for someone that already speaks English. Having lived in both, the quality of life is way higher in those countries than Canada. Canada’s job market is in a really bad place at the moment, cost of living is climbing and it’s already quite high, housing is unaffordable to many, healthcare is struggling immensely.
I can’t believe you mentioned travel, it’s WAY easier and cheaper to travel in Europe, it’s not even close. It’s not an exaggeration when I say that it costs a Canadian the same price to travel in Canada as it does for the same person to fly to Europe.
All of my friends (we are all working professionals with degrees and years of experience) struggle to find new jobs. One friend spent close to two years searching for a job because she didn’t like her’s at the time. I spent a year looking for something in Canada (trying to change industries) before I gave up and started applying in the US and suddenly my schedule was packed with interviews and offers.
number1alien@reddit
Norwegian or Swedish would be even easier for OP to learn because they speak Dutch.
EulerIdentity@reddit
But OP has his own business that he can run from anywhere - he doesn’t need to worry about finding a job in Canada.
expectingthexpected@reddit
“Norwegian/Swedish are ridiculously easy to learn for someone that already speaks English”
If the Muppets taught me nothing else…
number1alien@reddit
I have a lot of Dutch colleagues at the Swedish company I work for who left the Netherlands for a lot of the same reasons that you're talking about (wide open spaces, proximity to nature, less focus on work, stronger sense of community) but didn't want to go as far as moving to Canada. Many of them became Swedish citizens and speak fluent Swedish. A lot of people here are saying you'll never fit in because of the language but as a Dutch speaker, it would be much easier for you to learn Swedish than someone who speaks English as their first language.
Fit_Caterpillar9732@reddit
If you really needed chat GPT to come up with this post, you don’t seem to be able to cut it in a country whose language quoi dont even speak.
creative_tech_ai@reddit
My background is quite different from yours. I don't know if I can offer any useful advice, but I can speak to living in Sweden. I emigrated from the US to Sweden in 2020, and recently became a citizen. I have no Asian ancestry, though. I'm also quite introverted, and so don't need much of a social life.
Sweden is a beautiful country. Nature is never far away. There are tons of lakes and islands. Sweden is also about 70% forest, and has a low population. So getting away from people isn't hard.
People complain that it's difficult to befriend Swedes, but I've heard immigrants say the same thing about almost every country. Making new friends is always challenging, regardless of the country, especially as you get older. People tend to stick to the group of friends they made in high school or university, and rarely add new people to it. It is possible to make Swedish friends, but you just have to go about it the right way (joining hobby-based clubs is what's usually recommended). The foreigners in Sweden are a very welcoming group, though.
You don't have to worry about finding a job, so that removes one of the largest obstacles. You're lucky in that respect. Assuming you're earning Euros or USD, you'd be on the good side of the exchange rate, at least right now, since the SEK is a bit weak.
I love it here, but it sounds like you miss your friends in Canada. It sounds like you never replaced your group of Canadian friends with Dutch friends. Like I said earlier, I think a lot of people, after growing up, never do find quite the same friendships that they had when they were younger. If reconnecting and maintaining those friendships back in Canada is really important, then moving to Canada is your only option. I don't know if your friends back in Canada have started families yet, but be warned that when they do, it will change everything. Most people will largely disappear once they start having kids, and it will be more than a decade before they become widely available again.
I spent 10 years living in Asia before moving to Sweden. So I know how feeling "other" can wear on you. By the time I left Asia, I just wanted to be able to walk down a street and blend in. If you feel that you will fit in better in Canada than in Europe, that's another good reason to move. I've heard that Canada is beginning to have a lot more anti-immigrant sentiment after the government opened the flood gates a few years back. You might want to ask your other Asian friends if they've noticed a change in attitude towards Asian people. It would suck to move back only to discover attitudes have changed.
A drawback to living in North America is how far you have to travel to experience another culture. We're spoiled in Europe in that regard. If that isn't important to you, then that's another good reason to go back to Canada.
Grizzly-Redneck@reddit
As a Canadian who emigrated to Sweden and likes it here I'd say Canada is a better fit for you based on all the reasons you've listed. I've lived in Norway as well and despite both countries suiting me I wouldn't recommend them for you.
zoopz@reddit
As a dutch person that loves Scandinavia: go to Canada! Never fitting quite in is even worse in the colder European countries! You mentioned only one upside: your parents want it. That's not a very strong case. Go to Canada man, live your life.
FrauAmarylis@reddit
Sounds like you forgot to set and enforce healthy boundaries with your parents.
Your parents chose Europe for their lives. You get to choose for your life.
Part of healhy boundaries is putting your parents on an Information diet.
Another part is changing the subject or warming them that the subject goes nowhere and if they keep talking about it you will hang ip the phone and try again next week.
trunksfulleh@reddit
You should check out @east.meets.eats on IG, it’s a community of third culture kids in Canada/the Netherlands too
Pettefletpluk@reddit
In Finland, Sweden, or Norway , you will have to speak the local language fluently if you want to be successful there. It's a very long and very slow (sometimes painful😓) process to master a foreign language if you are not going to school in that country for the purpose immersion. You may have experienced this in the Netherlands, not so sure if you speak Dutch. Also do not believe anyone who says that you do not really need to speak the country's language.
There is always a headache of your degree from Canada most likely not being equivalent with the education in said countries. Moving to Canada, with your Canadian degree, will give you less issues.
King_Jian@reddit
Having lived in Sweden briefly as a person of mixed East Asian/European ancestry and given your post describing your background/preferences, you are not only 100% bang on with the “us and them mentality,” but you have already made your decision. Only thing left is to execute on a plan to make the move happen.
Liberatedexpat@reddit
Your gut instinct about Canada sounds like it comes from a deep place of experience and knowing what you truly value.
North European countries have very strong, sometimes rigid cultures. That can mean it's harder to fit in and belong - seems like you realized that as a TCK.
Canada truly is a mix of cultures and in cities like Toronto fitting in is not so much of an issue. You already seem to move much more effortlessly in that kind of context - this is very telling of your future integration journey.
You care about your parents but you ultimately need to choose the decision that fits your needs - it's your life not theirs. Your own feelings about your integration is the best indicator of the likely success of your future choice of country.
Mark, MSW
Global Expat Mental Health Strategist
Liberated Expat
EulerIdentity@reddit
Being fluent in both English and French already puts you ahead of the large majority of native-born Canadians.
It sounds like everything favors Canada over Europe except the fact that your parents are complaining about it. It’s your life, not theirs. Make your own decision and they’ll get over it once you’ve visited them a few times and they realize it’s a fait accompli.
Diplomama@reddit
Do it. Have you explained all of this to your family as you've eloquently laid out here? If so and they don't/can't articulate their views (without it being about them), and still don't understand you or give you the space to do what YOU need... Then think about number 1 and what is best for you, you seem pretty sure already. I have lived in Canada and would much rather do that than the places you've listed on your parents' list, all of which I've been to, especially as a POC. And business entrepreneur wise also seems like a much much better opportunity. Good luck!
Lillemor_hei@reddit
It sounds like you’ve made your choice and that it’s Canada. If you’re already skeptical about Scandinavia, there’s no reason to move there. Norwegian is easy for English speakers, and almost everyone speaks English fluently. It’s a beautiful country. Oslo is diverse, fun, safe and clean, but Norway as a whole might feel more different from what you’re used to, so the move could take a bit more adjustment. The winters are long and dark unless you lean into the hygge. But it sounds to me like you’re already set on Canada.
Viking_13v@reddit
Go for Canada 🇨🇦
ArcticRock@reddit
Canada
keitherson@reddit
You sound to be a good fit for Canada and I think you have a good idea on what you want. Look into the WHV open to NL nationals, that should be a good entry point. It's a tough job market at the moment so your timing and transition to a work visa or PR would be crucial.
redd9876@reddit
My vote is for Canada. You don’t speak any of the Nordic languages so you’ll always be seen as an outsider. As a half Asian you will always fit in in southern Ontario or a big city in Alberta or BC where it’s so multicultural. If you also hold a NL passport you can return to the EU in the future if you want.