Americans living in the UK looking for a new country
Posted by thepageofswords@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 193 comments
Husband and I and two children currently live in the UK on his skilled worker visa. We don't want to go back to the US right now due to the political situation but we have an expensive (£10k) visa renewal fee coming up and the low British salaries just don't make these big fees worth it. Husband has a BSc in aerospace engineering and 13 years of experience in mechanical/mechatronic engineering. I have an MA in historic buildings, but haven't been working for the last year due to illness.
We are looking at moving next summer to another country. Our preferred countries are Norway, Denmark, Japan, or the Netherlands, but we don't speak any languages except English. How likely is it that we will be able to move to one of these countries with a salary that can support a family? Any advice is appreciated. Thank you!
ladiavolina@reddit
I mean ... Canada. Your husband would easily qualify for a TN visa, you'll be close enough to the US that you can easily visit your friends and family, and there'd be next to no culture shock.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Housing in Canada is even worse than the UK though. It's a massive crisis.
ladiavolina@reddit
Fair point. Things look pretty bleak everywhere these days ...
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Very very true
No_Passage6082@reddit
Canada!
DruidWonder@reddit
The Canadian economy is falling apart and it has become extremely expensive and under resourced. I highly recommend AGAINST coming to Canada.
PuzzledMind_7@reddit
It is still better than most European counties.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Housing is even more in Canada and their medical system is not good, unfortunately! We'd like to be closer to family.
Choice-Ad1477@reddit
You may not want to hear it, but you should stay in the UK. You don't speak any languages besides English. Don't underestimate how huge that downside is.
PuzzledMind_7@reddit
I second this!
Resident_Maximum3127@reddit
It isn't on your preferred list but have you considered France ? Toulouse is a fantastic city. Hosts Airbus manufacturing. Lots and lots of historic buildings all around that area. Decent weather.
alaska_clusterfuck@reddit
Hi, dutchie here! I don’t know the expat rules but my husband works in the same field as yours and English is very much accepted :)
Accomplished_Try_179@reddit
Whatever destination you choose, you must consider the job market first. In your case, you have to look for job opportunities first (in aeronautical engineering et al) then choose the country.
Fun-Raspberry4432@reddit
Sincere question - I get the visa renewal costs being high. But won't it cost you that much to move and start over again? You're already in the UK, presumably have friends, community, etc., so I don't see the reasoning of moving (unless you can do it on a dime) to start over, especially not knowing how easy it might be to integrate. I've read hear that Germany can be challenging to make friends, etc. (all from what I've read, take that with a grain of salt). And with so many job markets being harsh, I suspect it could be hard to find a job depending on what your husband does.
Do you have issues with how 'grey' the UK can be weather-wise? I know that's an issue for many who move there from other parts of the world. Because Scandinavian countries can be even worse.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
I think a big part of wanting to move out of the UK is that we moved away from a city (York) that we lived in for two years because of high housing costs when I became ill last summer. Now we live in a small village and we really haven't established a community or network, despite our efforts. Everyone that I did know in York has left the country, so it's not even that we can go visit them. And the area that we live in now is cheap, but also has very little public transportation or cultural amenities/places that I could work and I don't drive due to illness.
So if we were to stay in the UK we'd want to move anyway, with no "suitable" cities within driving distance to my husband's work now. And moving means trying again to find a sponsored job for him (which would be his third in the UK so far). Plus, Reform UK has massively gained in power and has said they will do away with Indefinite Leave to Remain and will likely make immigration even more difficult and expensive long term. We just don't see a future here.
I fully expect the move to cost as much as our visa renewal, but we are willing to do that to experience a new culture/have a new experience.
The gray winters don't bother me so much because Michigan is quite gray in January and February due to lake effect snow and that's what we are used to.
NatteAap@reddit
Look at KLM, Transavia (my employer) websites for vacancies in the Netherlands for your husband. Good pay and we have a lot of employees from outside the EU. (Shoot me DM if you have questions/I can make inquiries based on his skillset). English speaking work force and office.
Plus skilled worker visa means 30% rule for income tax which will be helpful.
Housing is an issue so Amsterdam may be difficult (depending on when you are planning to move I can point you towards new developments, one of which I am moving into next week).
As to your personal job opportunities, a little more difficult for me to judge. Likely harder because of language barrier. (Even with all the historical architecture here.)
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Thank you, I will look into those companies and message if I have any questions!
TheBiscuitMen@reddit
Just to say Reform are a long long way from being in number 10.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Yes and everyone said Brexit would never happen and Donald Trump would never be president.
gimme_ur_chocolate@reddit
Yes but it’s a little bit far out rn. Next election isn’t due till mid-2029 so they are still four or so years from office (if they maintain their lead).
In 1981 everyone said Thatcher was done for cause of the SLP but 1983 was a landslide.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
But it will happen before we can get citizenship (if we wanted it). We'd get ILR in January of 2029, IF they don't change it to ten years for people already in the country which they are currently debating. Then a year from that for citizenship. Also citizenship for the UK now that Brexit has happened just isn't that desirable as Americans.
gimme_ur_chocolate@reddit
That would depend on Labour changing the rules; though if they don’t January 2029 is probably a good time to get a sense if Reform is actually going to win (as well as if Republicans can win without Trump). European countries, as someone else pointed out, are also sliding to the right (on immigration). France’s election is in 2027, Germany will also be 2029. Spain is the safest best against far-right policies normally.
In truth a lot of people in Europe, they don’t like non-Christian immigration but it’s not really politically acceptable to say it so they attack immigration as a whole. In the UK nobody would care about immigration if it were all Germans and Yanks. I suspect barriers will get harder though because they’re really aiming for the statistical number to come down as a proxy. British passport was made weak by Brexit something I’m still very miffed about but it is what it is. Shame because it permits dual citizenship.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Labour has already said they are changing ILR from 5 to 10 years with "some exceptions." Which haven't been said yet.
gimme_ur_chocolate@reddit
It’s worthwhile waiting to see what they announce. You’ll have 3.5 years to contingency plan for Reform.
Rozenheg@reddit
They’re not going to be able to change those laws the day they get elected, it would take a couple of years and might only apply to people after you. Other countries in Europe are also sliding to the right with similar politicians making similar promises. You’d be starting from scratch. If you want to stay out is the US, think hard about wanting to take those risks with a country that might have all the drawbacks of the UK.
It’s going to be a massive amount of work with a lot of risk involved because you don’t speak the language, have to navigate a new, foreign bureaucracy and job market, etc. Consider how willing you are to be forces back to the US if it doesn’t pan out.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
I don't understand why people think immigration law changes won't negatively affect those on skilled worker visas. The changes since we've been here have already negatively affected us. The fees have increased, the pay threshold has increased massively, and Labour has already said they will change ILR from 5 to 10 years with "some exceptions," including for people already in the country.
Own-Blueberry-8616@reddit
Blame all the boat migrants for making life difficult for productive people like yourself! This government like to tax, punish and regulate producers and reward those people who just don’t feel like working
CurryFromAFlask@reddit
"boat migrants" is such a funny overused word for me. you fall for fear mongering when in reality it's the rich people in power privatising everything and the after effects of thatcher that caused all the major problems of living in the uk. high housing prices, expensive transport, inflation, high divide between economical classes.
the price of freddos was 5p in 1999. minimum wage was £3.60. that means with your hourly salary, you could've bought 72 of them. in 2017, the price of freddos were 25p and the minimum wage would've needed to be £18 an hour to get 72, but instead you only get 30 because the wages never went up in comparison to the price, with a ludicrous £7.50 minimum.
after 13 years of living in the uk, i moved out. because I realised that instead of facing the problems of privatisation and fixing them, the government cares much more about blaming minorities and using them as scapegoats for all the economical problems they caused with their questionable decision making. you unfortunately fell for what most british people do, which is why there is unprecedented levels of racism and violence towards immigrants now, that just shouldn't exist in europe.
rich people usually pay no taxes and do less work. our elected government officials like boris johnson partied during quarantine. and you're gonna sit there and say immigrants are lazy? take a look at how many immigrants do excruciatingly hard jobs in the uk, like construction or medicine, that the rest of us don't want to do.
or i'm sorry, were non eu immigrants the problem instead? so people from india, pakistan, nigeria or zimbabwe? you know, 4 of the many colonial countries that belonged to the uk? why is it that you guys want to invade and loot their countries but god forbid they wanna come to help the economy legally and have children. the number of illegal immigrants coming in is at least 14,000 a year, which is out of the million arrivals coming in yearly. sounds pretty insignificant to me.
i moved to england from spain at a young age. i have a british accent, i did everything to integrate. but i never actually lived a single year in the uk without facing some sort of xenophobic remark. i am grateful for the opportunities this country gave me, but i am not sad for giving it up today because living in the uk was awful, traumatising and unfair. no matter what i did to try to fit in, i just couldn't. british people are to blame for their own problems and they refuse help, resorting to leaving the eu instead. look how that turned out.
Own-Blueberry-8616@reddit
You misspelt trying civilise and build them a civilisation which they can’t manage without any outside help
Chemical-Drive-6203@reddit
Check out Oxford. It’s an expensive city, but it has a good train system into London. It has busses that run regularly and it’s a small city but lots of amenities.
Your husband in aerospace might be able to find work down there.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
If we moved within the UK we'd likely go to Durham or Newcastle. Oxford is pricey!
Chemical-Drive-6203@reddit
Yep. It can reach London in an hour. So a lot of people work and commute.
Firm_Speed_44@reddit
Then you know how important it is to have a social life. In Norway, that means speaking good Norwegian. English may be enough for some professions, but Norwegian is the language of friendship.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Yes, any country we go to we'd want to start learning the language right away.
tourmaps@reddit
Norway is expensive as hell. Consider you both don't work, it will be tough. Really tough. Today's economy almost requires you to borh work if you want a decent life.
Regards, a norwegian
Boo_Hoo_8258@reddit
As a Brit who moved to Norway it's very expensive here and food quality can be quite poor when it comes to fresh produce, while you can go to a norskkurs here to learn the language it can be difficult grammatically if you only know English, if you have other languages under your belt you might have an easier time but the language barrier can be a huge issue especially in the job market as it's VERY competitive and hard to find work, I have degrees in IT engineering and Pharmaceutical and I have been here 2 years with no luck finding work.
Fun-Raspberry4432@reddit
That all makes sense, including the possible change to ILR. Wishing you all the best.
gimmesuandchocolate@reddit
UK's economy has been bad for 15 years and is only getting worse. And the political situation is only a few years behind the US. General QOL is low and getting lower. The country is on a very bad trajectory.
Bende86@reddit
Doesn’t your employer want to foot the bill for those fees? In all three European countries you will get by with English. The Netherlands is tiny, so crowdy. I am from there and used to it. Good public transport in the city regions. To me de Norway and Denmark are huge and thus seem so empty - a lot of beautiful nature. No knowledge about Japan.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Husband's employer pays for his fees, but not the kids and mine, unfortunately. I think we are leaning more towards Norway and Denmark because they are less crowded and all of the nature!
Bende86@reddit
Yes it’s beautiful. I would definitely visit first - personally I would want to kive near a city, with facilities, but others like the silences and small communities of the outdoors 😃
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
We did go to the fjords and Haugesund this summer, in Norway, but not to Denmark yet. What areas have you gone to that you liked?
Bende86@reddit
We did a small roundtrip with the standard destinations like Copenhagen, Arhus, Odense etc. Really can’t advise you on those countries (other than Northern Europe is usually good social insurance, public transport etc)
TrippleassII@reddit
Have you considered Canada/Australia?
Professional-Yak1392@reddit
Your husband's engineering background is very strong for the Netherlands and Denmark, and possibly Norway. Many international companies there operate in English. Securing a sponsored visa will be key. Supporting a family on one income in high-cost countries without local language skills for daily life can be tough. Japan is usually quite hard without Japanese.
curiousengineer601@reddit
The problem with aerospace engineering is much of the work is defense oriented and that often requires citizenship. It will not be as easy as you might think.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
His degree is in aerospace but all of his experience is in mechanical. First job was designing and building valves, then he worked for Johnson and Johnson designing and building hip replacement implants, then another biomedical place designing and building COVID test machines, now he designs and builds assembly lines.
Ok_Intern989@reddit
And you don't think we have people who can do that in the Netherlands, Norway or Denmark, three of the most tech-saturated countries in Europe?
To even apply for a work-sponsored visa, the employer has to prove no EU/EEA candidate could fill the role (labor market test). Unless your husband’s got some rare, Nobel-level niche…your chances are between slim and fantasy.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
He's gotten sponsored by two different companies here in the UK, with the same qualifiers and the employers have also paid his visa fees.
Ok_Intern989@reddit
That's great lady, but you're conflating a couple of things here.
The UK has lower barriers for visa sponsorship, especially for engineers. The Netherlands? Not so much. Unless your husband’s coming in as a kennismigrant with a high-paying, specialist job that literally no EU/EEA applicant could fill, he’s going to hit the labor market test wall. A BSc and a solid CV just won’t cut it here they’ve already got plenty of people who can do what he does, in Dutch.
And yeah, language matters. Especially outside the expat bubble. A lot of engineering jobs. even technical ones. expect Dutch fluency for safety briefings, documentation, etc.
Just visit the Efteling every once in a while and touch some grass.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Why is it necessary to be so hostile?
deliciousuterus@reddit
File under: "Dutch bluntness" (?)
Better prepare yourself for that if you're planning on moving to the Netherlands, cause it's deeply embedded in their culture and an acquired taste ;-)
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
I have a very close friend who lives in Norway which is why I gravitate towards there. We also visited the country earlier this year and really enjoyed it. I would try to get some work once we get settled, but, being realistic, it probably wouldn't be a very high-paying job.
South-Beautiful-5135@reddit
Would you also enjoy the long, cold nights in winter? Winter depression is a thing.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
We're from Michigan, which can be quite cold in the winter, although it isn't as cold and dark as Norway, and have lived in the north of England for three years with very dark winters. But I get your meaning!
justinhammerpants@reddit
Michigan is way colder than southern Norway.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Oh, I didn't realize! Michigan's climate has become a lot warmer due to climate change, but it does still get cold and snow. But I guess southern Norway has the city to regulate temps.
justinhammerpants@reddit
Yes, where I’m originally from in Norway, about 80 minutes southeast of Oslo, average temps in January between 91-21 was -2c, so not very cold! Occasionally a cold spell here and there, but overall relatively warm.
LickingLieutenant@reddit
I hear Russia embraces US high skilled workers
Proud_Possibility256@reddit
In their prison system?
newphonewhodis333333@reddit
Netherlands sounds like the move
Delicious-Present910@reddit
Why Japan? Are you aware of the political landscape of the country? The yen devaluation? Do you know Japanese? Will you have enough money to send ur kid to an international school? Are you aware of the working culture?
Not to mention the reaaally "different" culture they have, I think it will be really difficult to adapt, especially since you guys will not be able to be auto sufficient since u will have to use a translator to even go to a combini (not to speak of government papers, especially since google translation is not the best for japanese language)
Many points also apply for the Netherlands, tbh it sounds really bold to want to move to another country with a family already established, not having real ties to it and not even Speaking the local language. Not even including the fact that you guys need visa sponsors. Not trying to discourage you, but the fact that you put the Netherlands and Japan tells me that you guys don't even know what u want.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
I lived in Japan as a teenager and still have a close connection to the family I lived with. I also studied Japanese history and language for my undergrad. So yes, I understand the current situation, including the current political situation. It would be the most difficult in regards to language and culture, definitely.
Any of the countries I mentioned would be very different situations/experiences, but we have already moved as a family from the US to the UK and found sponsorship, etc., so we have some experience with it. Obviously in an unfamiliar language it would be a whole other story. But why not try?
Delicious-Present910@reddit
Fair enough, but be aware that moving with a permanent purpose is totally different than to study. I would mainly be concerned about the international school, according to google the tuition fee in Japan is of 1 million, so you are pretty much using the money you would save from the visa to invest it in your kid. I am fairly young compared to you guys so I have no idea what other expenses there could be, but all the bureaucracy of japan including marriage recognition, visa sponsoring, contracts for the house and other services and more would make me think twice before moving.
Of course there is more stuff, but I guess the first step would be to get a job in the country you want and check if the money is enough to live your desired lifestyle.
kat_melanthe@reddit
I don't think moving to Scandinavian countries is a good idea. Finding a job without speaking the language is extremely difficult, the same as building a community and integrating with society. On top of that, both Norway and Denmark are expensive compared to other European countries. Moving and settling down will cost you more than 10k. Source: I moved from the UK to Denmark last year.
Intelligent_Coast783@reddit
I have never met any American/British in Norway, who regretted their decision of moving to Norway.
SheWhoLovesSilence@reddit
What makes you say this? Not saying it’s wrong, but as a Dutchie it surprises me to hear this being said to a native English speaker, since Dutch is one of the most closely related languages to English that there is
I believe Danish is closer to Dutch than Norwegian, which makes me think Norwegian is furthest removed from English
I do know the level of English spoken here in NL is ironically an obstacle to many expats because they struggle to get practice in. That might be a difference.
Is there a concrete reason that makes you say Norwegian is easier to learn?
ConsciousSea2841@reddit
He clearly only knows Norwegian and English and has no idea about languages 🙂
Intelligent_Coast783@reddit
I can partially vouch my statement and I am even ready to take my words back for Dutch but maybe not for Danish. Danish has very high correlation with Norwegian when it comes to writing, but as far as spoken is concerned, it’s entirely different story. As Norwegians joke, Danish is spoken with potato in the mouth.
SheWhoLovesSilence@reddit
Ah yes, I’ve heard this about Danish. That they basically drop half the word in pronunciation lol
Thanks for answering
jarvischrist@reddit
I speak Dutch and Norwegian after having lived in both countries and I definitely found Dutch more difficult to get to a higher level with. In the Scandinavian languages the grammar is closer to English. For reference I went from A2-B1 in Norwegian on a course which took six weeks, while my Dutch course at the same level took nine months!
SheWhoLovesSilence@reddit
That’s interesting! Didn’t know our grammar is that much harder than that of the Nordic languages
PracticalMention8134@reddit
I studied at Delft. It is still a mystery to me how they can make all those " g" sounds all day long :)
Boo_Hoo_8258@reddit
This is objectively untrue, I am British and the very few British people I have met here in norskkurs absolutely struggle with the grammar, myself included especially we have never learnt another language prior, the only way its easier for people to learn Norwegian is by having a second language already under their belt, I am so sick and tired of seeing this misinformation being spread around.
Intelligent_Coast783@reddit
Norwegian grammar is not difficult. At advanced level, yes it does get a bit irritating but that’’re nuisances of every language. Or maybe you’re unlucky that you didn’t get a good teacher. I learned Norwegian from a university professor.
Boo_Hoo_8258@reddit
We've had several teachers and again it is not the same if you have never learnt a language before, and especially if you are getting older, I am now 42 and I find it extraordinarily difficult in the UK we were never really taught a second language outside the basics of Spanish, German & French which are VERY basic at best.
papa_brombeer@reddit
Netherlands, most speak English and don't mind it, besides that he might find work with one of the many aerospace company's surrounding Esa in Noordwijk. Lot's of expats in that area too, so that would make it easier to establish a network.
RevolutionEasy1401@reddit
I don’t understand the idea of moving to a completely another country due to the “political situation”.
I understand you don’t like Trump but a lot of republicans moved because of Biden or Obama which to me seemed equally odd. The US is huge and the political situation in most blue states has not changed very much.
Norway is very expensive and you will start at the bottom rung. You can learn the language but you will always be penalized for not having lived there before. Housing is expensive, you might have pension issues.
I think you will do better move back to the USA find a good place where you can find good jobs and a community of like minded people and then turn off your TV.
Alternatively have your husband look for jobs and see if you find anything.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Healthcare which is already the most expensive in the world is massively increasing due to cuts to Medicaid, the entirety of the special education team at the Department of Education has been dismissed, universities are not accepting PhD candidates due to lack of funding, food has increased hugely in price, everything coming into the country is being fined via tariffs, people (including US citizens) are being snatched off the street by a secret federal police force, the military has been sent in to several US cities to "control the population," air travel is being seriously compromised or delayed due to the lack of air traffic controllers, national parks and national museums are shut down and anyone in the military is not being paid because the federal government itself is shut down, etc., etc.
This is only the tip of the iceberg. It is uncertain if the election in 2026 will even happen. I am not being dramatic or silly in my desire to not want to return to the US.
FISunnyDays@reddit
Hi there - I am in a somewhat similar situation. I'm from the US and currently live in the UK. We have just recently moved, my work sponsored my visa including paying the fees for my family; however, with the possibilty of 10 years before ILR I don't think I can make it working that long as I was already considering a career change. I was considering starting a business in Japan but I don't know if its wise this late in my life, plus I am just really tired lol. I also have kids but hopefully my older one will university bound in a few years (he's actually been studying Japanese for a few years). My younger one is autistic and at this point I'm uncertain if he will be able to live independently so that complicates things. Good luck, I hope you find a country because I am seeking one as well!
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Hello, yes, thank you! We've been here for three years now but looking at the pattern of changes to immigration law it doesn't feel like a place that we can settle. Add in a worsening economic situation and it feels a bit grim. We still love the country, have really enjoyed our time and experience here, but are ready to move on next summer! I hope you find something suitable as well.
Henrico1981@reddit
I wouldn’t recommend the Netherlands, a very big housing crisis and lots of other major issues due to too many people, our small country has become way to crowded and is heavily overloaded.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Yes, I've read that there is a bad housing crisis in the Netherlands! We went to Utrecht and Efteling last year and really enjoyed the country, but I understand your point.
Alone_Ad_9071@reddit
Are you planning to go back to work? A single income will generally make it quite difficult for a family of 4 to live in the areas most expats want to live/where you can get by speaking only English. Unless he has a very high income to which of course I cannot speak.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Yes, but it will likely be part time because I have a chronic illness. We've been living on one income in the UK but it's been a bit of a stretch. We moved to a cheaper area when I got sick but now we're quite isolated/there aren't many opportunities for me.
Alone_Ad_9071@reddit
You might wanna do some calculations comparing the cost of living and see what you’d need to survive in the Netherlands. If you want to survive on English you’ll want to live/work in or near the big cities, daycare is also relatively expensive and healthcare isn’t free. However you might get some benefits but I don’t know how that works for non-eu people.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Children are both school-aged now luckily, but I will definitely look more into salaries and housing in the Netherlands. I know they have a major housing issue, but I wouldn't want to live in one of the major cities unless necessary.
funnymanus@reddit
If you have illness, ensure it can be covered by the insurance. I have moved to NL also from UK and have to say, job market for internationals just overnight become non-existent. In 2019 about 50% jobs in my field (IT) were ok with English speakers, now that's max 5% of the roles on a good week.
Ok_Intern989@reddit
Your healthcare expenses will be covered, but non-EU citizens are not eligible for subsidized income like WIA unless you've worked here and paid into the system.
You’ll get access to medical care, but not income support. Unless you’re here with a work contract and insurance, the Dutch system doesn’t offer financial disability benefits to new arrivals.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
I don't receive any benefits in the UK.
Alone_Ad_9071@reddit
Ah no daycare will make a big difference! It will actually be much better housing price and availing wise to not live near the major cities but it will be more difficult/isolating if you don’t speak Dutch.
Kixsian@reddit
Also people need to be aware you cannot acquire Dutch citizenship unless you renounce you’re American.
SellSideShort@reddit
Are you going to change countries everytime there is a republican in office? What about the European countries you live in? Only possible to live where there is a democrat in command?
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Let's not downplay the utter shit show that is the United States right now. Nothing about Trump being in office is normal. And the economy is about to massively crash.
Burn_ThemAll@reddit
I live in Norway. You can get by with only English but highly recommend learning Norwegian.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Are you American? How did it go finding a job, etc. We'd definitely go all in learning the language once things are more decided.
Soft_Stage_446@reddit
I am Norwegian and most of my English speaking friends here never really learned Norwegian. My impression is that English is often fine for STEM/CS.
Ok_Intern989@reddit
Her husband has a BSc in engineering. I don't know what it's like in Norway, but in the NL that doesn't qualify to be labeled as a 'highly skilled migrant'. You'll need at least a MA.
Soft_Stage_446@reddit
I totally missed that. Yes, usually right.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
From what I've seen, housing is cheaper in Norway (outside of Oslo) and salaries for engineers are a bit higher. But I know it will be right!
Soft_Stage_446@reddit
Yeah, but food is a lot more expensive and the selection is substantially worse. You will also have extra costs (especially with two kids) when it comes to winter and transportation. I don't know where you live in the UK of course. But just visiting Norway is usually not enough to get a realistic impression of the country.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
We live in Teesside now, although we lived in York for two years, which is perhaps the most expensive city in the north. A big draw I have towards Norway is that my friend and her Norwegian husband live in Lillehammer, hah. It's a bit silly but to have a native speaker to help out on occasion would be huge.
Soft_Stage_446@reddit
My next question is "Have you visited Lillehammer in winter". 😆
But yeah, Lillehammer is a pretty small town and if your SO could get a good offer your idea to move isn't unreasonable. You will find a lot of cultural differences - less focus on schooling compared to the UK, more relaxed atmosphere (for better or worse!). It's good to have a network and someone to help you navigate the system.
I would also just suggest to think of your kids in this process - moving countries isn't easy, and especially learning a new language. Kids do adapt well but it could be tough.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Haha, we haven't been in the winter, but we are from Michigan and I also lived in Montana for a while! We definitely will have to think things through very carefully, especially in regards to the children. I appreciate your input!
Burn_ThemAll@reddit
Agreed it would be tough to support a family on one income here.
Burn_ThemAll@reddit
Yes, you can get by with just English, but please believe me as a non-Norwegian that being at least somewhat fluent, makes life a a lot easier and opens up more opportunities. I work at a fairly international company where English is our main working language.
I do have coworkers that have lived here for several years and haven’t bothered learning and they can exist without it.. but even in tech the majority of jobs want you to be fluent in Norwegian (not all, but the majority yes).
But also navigating life without knowing any Norwegian is difficult when all signage most websites (shops and government), almost all interactions by default (until it’s clear you’d need to switch to English). Yes, there are translation tools, and they help a ton, I am moderately fluent, and I still find it really frustrating sometimes and I’m working hard towards becoming completely fluent.
I’m just saying all of this because I feel like people really downplay all of this because of the fact that most Norwegian speak English (not all, you definitely will encounter people who don’t when you live here). So like I said another comment yes you can get by without it, but I really really recommend learning Norwegian if you plan on staying here long-term.
Soft_Stage_446@reddit
Very nice comment. Of course, speaking Norwegian is useful. But the "you have to be fluent in Norwegian to get a skilled job here" (not what you said, but mentioned in other comments and very often on this sub) is just not true.
Burn_ThemAll@reddit
Ah yes, that is absolutely true. If you’re in tech or an adjacent field that’s in demand there are definitely opportunities :)
Soft_Stage_446@reddit
Yeah - I don't think the language will be OP's biggest issue/reality check!
My tech/geek friends (mostly immigrated from the UK) started out with only English and eventually became more or less fluent in understanding Norwegian, talking is harder so we usually switch to English when hanging out. But they do their best to use if in professional settings when necessary.
My academic STEM colleagues are a different story - my impression is that a lot of researchers never really learn Norwegian. Possibly because they didn't plan on staying. I'm sure there are a lot of factors.
Norway is changing a bit in this regard as well - a lot of service jobs (like bartending) are now OK with employees who speak English. Lots of different opinions on this but having to order in English when eating out is really not uncommon anymore.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
We would all definitely want to learn the language if we moved there. I understand it may take years of study to be fluent. I think it's rude to move to a country and not learn their language, honestly.
South-Beautiful-5135@reddit
You will need years to get fluent in Norwegian.
Burn_ThemAll@reddit
Yes I am American. It was easy for me to get a job, but I’m in tech. Feel free to DM if you want :)
solstice_gilder@reddit
Same for the Netherlands. The job market isn’t friendly for non Dutch speakers at the moment and will simply make your life easier when you learn the local language. Obviously.
Ok_Intern989@reddit
Don’t come to the Netherlands, cause you won’t find housing.
And saying “of course we’ll start learning the language right away” is hilariously naive.
You have no idea how many years it actually takes to learn Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, etc. It’s not just Duolingo and vibes.
We already have plenty of highly skilled workers here (I reckon the same goes for our Nordic neighbors).
A BSc means nothing here; a MA is the bare minimum for being qualified as someone with 'special skills'.
Unless you’re being directly recruited from abroad by a Dutch employer, it’s highly unlikely you’d qualify for a work-sponsored visa.
tossitintheroundfile@reddit
I have lived in Norway now for five years and love it. Probably the only way that you will get here though is if you / your husband gets a skilled worker visa. The company that hires basically has to prove that there are no competent Norwegians who could do the job.
Which sounds harsh, but it’s a small country so totally possible in some niches. The other options are that he / you could get a job with a business in the UK and has a local office here that would be willing to transfer you. Or- more of a long shot but he / you could potentially start your own business or come as a graduate student if you decided to pursue a PhD for instance (doctorates are paid positions in Norway).
CocoaCandyPuff@reddit
Your first paragraph is pretty much standard in every country.
tossitintheroundfile@reddit
Yes and no. For many countries, those are options, but they are not the only options… for example all the places that have investment routes to residency / citizenship, or option to get the passport if a grandparent was a citizen, etc.
Also, it’s different rules even in Norway if you are an EU/EAS citizen as opposed to much stricter rules not being from there.
ImperatorMajorianus@reddit
As a Dutch person living in the Netherlands, good fucking with the housing market here it’s horrific. If you do however manage to find a house the Netherlands is pretty great I’d say.
Ok_Intern989@reddit
The 30% rule only applies if you’re recruited from abroad by a Dutch employer under the highly skilled migrant scheme. It’s meant to cover extra costs of living abroad. Since 2024, the benefit phases out over 5 years: 30% for the first 20 months, then 20%, then 10%. So yeah, not everyone qualifies, and it’s not as generous as it used to be.
jemappellelara@reddit
Treaties lol
Mzmouze@reddit
What about Canada? They need engineers and you wouldn't have to worry about learning a new language. The pay isnt as good as in the US, but is still pretty high for that field.
merebear333@reddit
Japan is not the place for you if you’re not about to work towards N1 Japanese. They also just elected someone specifically because they’re blaming their shortcomings on the like 3% foreign population they have. Awesome for vacations, not the place to move for real if you’re not fluent or on your way in Japanese. And even if you were, if you’re not ethnically Japanese, it’ll probably be rough especially outside of Tokyo.
doepfersdungeon@reddit
3 of Europe's most boring and anti social countries in my experience.
Norway good nature. Dry society.
Netherlands zero nature but good cycling, growing degrees of right wing hysteria, very individualistic midset. 30 percent ruling is a bonus.
Denmark , sort of somewhere in between the two but more socially liberal and Copenhagen is a nice way of life if that's what your into. Getting very expensive as well.
You'll never really integrate in Japan. Even of you spend 5 years learning the language. Will be very fun though.
Depends what your after really. If it's normality and simple life with high wages and access to beautiful scenery I would go to Norway.
If it's adventure and a completely different perspective on life, I would hestidate in Japan. But expect a culture and lifestyle work/life balance shock and adhering to plenty of rules jd social norms.
The Netherlands depressed the hell out of me. Yes, many people speak English to an extent, but a conservative society in my view masking as super progressive . People are cold and uninviting. Everything is by the book and jesus the winters. The whole country feels like a Sims experiment. I heard from a number if friends they thought the education system, almost solely designed George Sorous Institute, was fealing them out as parents.
Are the wages there actually better than the UK? Not sure?
Eventual EU residency is a bonus of course.
I think moving to any country on Internet recommendations is probably hard. Search for jobs, go visit and make a call.
DruidWonder@reddit
"right wing insanity" lol Amsterdam is one of the most left wing cities I have ever lived on the entire planet.
doepfersdungeon@reddit
I said hysteria. Not insanity. Also said Netherlands not Amsterdam. Also for all of Amsterdam prides , weed and prossies, it's actually quite a racist place. The veneer of liberalism comes of fairly quickly. There is quite a deep distrust of those who are different and I spoke to many expats and Dutch people, particularly of Indonesian amd Suriname backgrounds, they all said they believe NL to be a hostile place playing the game of some bastion of freedom and liberty. Passive aggressive sometimes almost straight up dishonest preconceptions and tolerance but never acceptance. Just what I saw and heard.
DruidWonder@reddit
My impression of NL is that it's just an anti-social culture in general. Quite insular, stand-offish. People tend to only deeply associate with those who they grew up with, family ties, and their professional community. It's one of my least favourite European countries.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
I understand what you mean about the Netherlands, hah. We have been to Rotterdam, Utrecht, and Efteling there. The fjords and Haugesund in Norway. I lived in Osaka for a while as a teenager (as an exchange student). I appreciate your input and we'll definitely need to do more research.
doepfersdungeon@reddit
Lots of people love it there....just my opinion. Each to thier own.
WileEPorcupine@reddit
What is it about the political situation in the U.S. that would directly affect you in a negative way?
H3scr0w@reddit
Hi!
Which tool do you use to calculate and simulate costing live in some famous countries?
I used personally this one which is particulary accurate and reliable: https://www.salarynettax.com
I wanted to know if others has used it before as well.
I planned to move from France to uae or Oman!
Tell me your famous list please !
caibarien45@reddit
We don't want to go back to the US right now due to the political situation
What????
DruidWonder@reddit
I thought the same thing. What can be worse than what Starmer is doing in the UK.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Trump??
maritjuuuuu@reddit
I believe the Netherlands just agreed they'd take political refugees from the states so you could apply under that, though I don't know tye details and not everyone would be allowed to apply.
Most people here speak English in case you are not willing to learn the language, though I highly recommend it.
In any case I would wait until after the elections that are end this month because that could change everything
No-Environment-5939@reddit
The salaries will be even lower in Japan and once you’re working there, you’re kinda trapped because of the poor economy
NoLongerYonge@reddit
It’s the IHS that makes staying prohibitive.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Yes, especially with children. My husband's work covers his visa fees but just mine and the children's are £10,000+ for three years.
NoLongerYonge@reddit
And the change from 5 to 10 years on all skilled worker visas. WTF
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Yup!! Big time. They've said there will be exceptions for "high skilled professions" but haven't released any details.
NoLongerYonge@reddit
GTV isn’t exempt. So I am not holding my breath.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
For sure. The constantly changing goalposts re: immigration has really soured us staying.
Dramniceanu@reddit
Malta? Is in Europe, EU, and English is an official language
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
I have really bad heat intolerance from my chronic illness, so unfortunately we really can't go anywhere in southern Europe.
Rod_ATL@reddit
Ireland might be easier than other countries and it will allow you to apply for citizenship without giving up your US citizenship.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Cheers - we were thinking about Ireland as well! I have a friend from Cork so some connections there.
SamuelAnonymous@reddit
Speaking as an Irish citizen (now also US citizen), having lived in the US, UK, and Ireland... I think many you'll face some of the same issues in Ireland. As a whole, it's probably cheaper, but wages are lower again and taxes are higher. And housing is similarly shit. BUT immigration fees are FAR cheaper, and as long as you qualify, it's way less restrictive. I'm sponsoring my wife's Visa, and I'm similarly frustrated with the anti-immigrant sentiment in the UK, and the constant moving goalposts and raising of fees, which are already ridiculous.
Kixsian@reddit
I wouldn’t say taxes are higher than the uk. We are moving to Ireland in April with our newishly acquired British citizenship so no visas. But the taxes, at least for me are lower by about €700/month.
SamuelAnonymous@reddit
Depends on income brackets of course. For the average earner, it's usually higher. USC and PRSI push it up. A big factor to weigh is tax on investments, since Ireland charges a flat 33% on capital gains compared to the UK’s tiered system, where I believe gains are taxed between 18% and 24% after a £3,000 annual allowance. That means someone selling £100,000 of stock would pay roughly £23,000 in UK tax versus £33,000 in Ireland.
And in the UK you have the added benefit of having an ISA account which could offer significant compounding gains with zero tax.
Kixsian@reddit
S&S ISA's dont really work for Americans. But for me, i promise im not trying to brag, but i sit in the 45% bracket and have 0 Tax Free Allowance. So for me it is a bit different. NOw dont get me wrong i understand my place of privlidge on this, but it is defintley less tax lol. Plus no council tax!!!!!!!!!!
SamuelAnonymous@reddit
I'm in the same tax bracket. For a higher earner, it can be better. But even considering the taxes owed to the USA, ISA is still advantageous! No council tax is definitely a big plus. Don't discount the fact that most people will generally earn more in the UK too.
Kixsian@reddit
I’m Lucky when we move they are just converting my salary so should do very well.
I haven’t found a bank that lets us do s&s isas except interactive brokers.
Winter_Oreo@reddit
I moved to the Netherlands from the UK (but due to marrying a Dutch man). I like it here very much, the language is not easy to learn, I am still trying. One thing I would take into consideration is housing costs are waaaay higher than the UK and competition for housing is also crazy ! So maybe if York was getting too expensive think twice about the NL as it will be more and salaries are not specifically much higher.
PracticalMention8134@reddit
I have hundreds of friends, who work at aerospace and other companies in the Netherlands. Most of them are aerospace engineers or mechanical design engineers etc. Beware Asml has cut down on hiring drastically and the job market is not that good anymore. My friend who worked for Airbus before is having a difficult time in finding jobs around Eindhoven.
Aerospace engineering in the Uk pays really low and the quality of life around the places they are settled is really not that amazing. I would prefer Eindhoven in a heartbeat over those towns to be honest.
Norway may look nice but it doesn't have a big expat community like the ones in the Netherlands.
shoalmuse@reddit
I moved to Denmark from the US and love it. It is harder to get a Visa now though and Copenhagen is very pricey. I would look at companies in Robotics or Drones (there are quite a few).
Telecom_VoIP_Fan@reddit
Virtually everyone speaks English in Denmark and Norway so language would not be a problem. I think your husband's qualifications would be valued in these countries, but I have the impression that they do not have so much in way of an industrial engineering sector.
Busy-Sheepherder-138@reddit
While English fluency is pretty rampant in all of Scandinavia, I would not suggest that a job seeker today, even in tech, would have an easy time getting hired without language proficiency.
Also while people are very willing to use English with you when you are a tourist, that willingness stops once you become a resident. It's an imposition for most people in Scandinavia to actually have to speak in English. They understand it well typically, but speak it rarely and they are very unsure of themselves when they have to. I live in Sweden and the move back to Swedish only, at employers, at hospitals and in commerce is significant.
Extension_Canary3717@reddit
Nowergian is category 1 to learn for English speakers it can't get any easier to learn. You main problem will be language unless you work IT , like , Portugal everyone at all ages speaks English , but not knowing the local language will limit almost 100% your ability to get work , and everyone will tell you similar for any country in Europe . Japan is uber worse as they don't speak English in general not even casually like in EU
Why not Ireland or Australia?
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
I've started to learn some Norwegian just casually and it seems quite close to English. I thought Dutch was as well when I studied that a bit.
I would consider Ireland, for sure, but I know housing is expensive and small, and it seems more of the same as the UK. I wouldn't consider Australia because it's just too far away from the US.
Extension_Canary3717@reddit
The first language is the worst because you don't know how to learn , Americans I know personally have a hard time to not think in English, but basically all languages has more resources in English and once you get to understand comprehensive input (look up it later) you start picking languages fast like , Norwegian to Swedish or Danish it's almost English to Afrikaans .
Anyway you will need to choose English speaking country or deal with language learning. Did you had Spanish ? Spain is a good country to go too
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Oh, yes, I have some basic fluency of Spanish, but my husband doesn't and from what I understand English-speaking jobs in Spain aren't as common as in the Nordics, Germany, and the Netherlands. Plus I'm very sensitive to hot weather. I did start a basic study of Dutch and Norwegian and found them similar to English, although obviously it will take a lot of study to become fluent.
Extension_Canary3717@reddit
For Norwegian up to b2 use the book Mystery of Nils by book 2 , between you and C1 level is just amount of language contact
profdrpoopybutt@reddit
Germany might be an option. With an engineering background it would be great as there is a lot of industry where it is needed, but knowing German might be a requirement. The German tax system also heavily favours single income families by paying having to pay much less income tax. It's one of the few countries in Europe where being a single income family is so advantageous tax wise.
Daidrion@reddit
I mean, that's because otherwise it's 2nd highest tax in OECD. AFAIK taxes are still lower in the UK even with this "advantage".
Also... Recommending Germany as a destination, you have no compassion for the poor OP.
profdrpoopybutt@reddit
Yes, but unlike the UK you get something for those taxes as a family: subsized or free childcare (depends on location), a medical system that actually works, sick pay that is 100% of your salary for 6 continuous weeks (statutory sick pay in the UK is 128.75 pounds/week - it's a joke), much higher pay and much longer duration for maternity leave, much higher unemployment benefit, roads that are not full of potholes, FREE university education, etc.
You pay less taxes in the UK, but you also get much, much less back.
I have plenty of compassion for OP by recommending Germany. I lived 5 years in the UK and over 12 years now in Germany. I find Germany a much better place to live in every aspect except language.
Daidrion@reddit
Does it? Not in my experience.
I never said that the UK is good. But I would definitely not recommend Germany. If the UK is even worse than this, it's kind of sad.
profdrpoopybutt@reddit
Comparing the NHS (and I say this both as a former NHS user and as having a close friend that was a doctor in the NHS) to the German healthcare care system is like comparing a bike with a Starship, not even in the same galaxy.
Yes, good healthcare is costly, but everyone pays according to their possibilities and everyone has access to it. I can be reasonably sure that when I call an ambulance in Germany it will be there in max 10 min, not 6 hours and that there will be a free hospital bed for me. Just check mortality rates during Covid between Germany and the UK. There is no half a year wait list in Germany for a freaggin hip replacement.
Again, you have not lived in the UK, so you have no idea how shit a national healthcare system can be due to decades of underfunding.
_Jope_@reddit
I think those who live in Germany are a bit worn out bc job situation is shit, yet a lot of people think finding a job will be as easy as it was 4 years ago. Then they come here spending months and months looking for a job that never existed
profdrpoopybutt@reddit
Of course, there are issues in Germany as well, but look what's happening in the world, it's quite bad everywhere. Now it's about choosing the least shitty option.
Tardislass@reddit
Don’t go to Germany as the housing prices are insane and people aren’t very friendly. If you only speak English, staying in the UK is your best bet.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Oh thank you, I do have some contacts in Germany as well!
profdrpoopybutt@reddit
Hope it helps!
ConsciousSea2841@reddit
Definitely Netherlands! The tech sector is crazy good with very high salaries. English is not a problem at all. And compared to the other countries you mentioned people also live fun and happy lives here outside of work. The education system is also great for children
Over-Pie-7916@reddit
I think the best options are Netherlands,Denmark,Ireland,Canada,Australia
bath-bubble-babe@reddit
I've just emigrated to the Netherlands from the UK.
I also studied aerospace engineering.
So far, I would highly recommend. I'm happy to answer questions.
Kixsian@reddit
RULE NUMBER 4!!
Also as it seems you have no European passport there is no options.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
I mean, we're on a skilled worker visa now in the UK and I have done preliminary research. I just want to know other people's experiences.
Kixsian@reddit
Rule 4 states a specific country. And it looks like you went “oh these are nice” but did no research in what it takes to get there.
Also a skilled work visa in the Uk doesn’t mean anything anywhere else. Current climate in immigration in Europe is making this more and more difficult so if you don’t already have the ability to live/work in said country it’d near impossible. If you’re close to ILR in the UK do that instead. Then citizenship. The. At least you have the right to work in Ireland at the very least.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Norway: a close friend of mine lives there, we've been there, I've done basic research on housing costs and English jobs. The Netherlands: we've visited and I've looked at housing costs. Japan: I lived there with a host family as a teenager and have done basic research on housing and English jobs. Etc.
We are still three years from ILR (if we are still allowed on the 5-year route) and with Reform gaining popularity we feel it's a gamble to stay longer, especially with high housing costs and low salaries.
Randomfinn@reddit
I cannot think of any country you would want to move to where you could get citizenship in three years. You would be better off staying put since the ten thousand will be spent on visas in a new country plus moving expenses. Isn’t the next election after you are eligible for citizenship?
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
We aren't particularly interested in British citizenship. At least not enough to be barely scraping by for three more years with the possibility of it all being taken away at the last minute. The election has to be held before August 2029 but can be held anytime between now and then.
Randomfinn@reddit
Fair enough, if you are content with paying for visas, then all countries seem to be leaning towards increasing visa fees and I anticipate that to increase.
Good luck with where you choose to land.
Kixsian@reddit
Housing has nothing to do with right to work or live.
Your decision tree is “where can we get a visa” that’s it.
The rest of it is moot.
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Obviously, but we need to know if we can survive there before going further looking for sponsored jobs. We came to the UK on a postgrad visa and housing costs definitely ruled out large parts of the south.
FrauAmarylis@reddit
Yeah, Brits do not realize how much money expats bring in. Especially paying upfront for NHS when a lot of us don’t use it because our own insurance is far better.
Hutcho12@reddit
Germany is pretty big in this area, and they certainly won’t make experienced people pay a ridiculous fee like this to take up a job there.
_Jope_@reddit
But they hardly hire non German speakers
ihavenosisters@reddit
If you’re worried about language and salary Japan is probably the worst out of them all. Very low salaries and no English ability outside of touristy areas.
Scandinavia would probably be the best fit or staying in the UK. Life gets much more complicated if you don’t speak the language, even in countries where the majority of the population does. In Germany for example immigration is not allowed to speak English during appointments which means you need to bring a translator when you renew your visa etc.
jemappellelara@reddit
I absolutely would not recommend the Netherlands right now. Massive housing crisis which have resulted in scams (usually targeting expats like yourself) and can leave you thousands €€€€ in the hole if you’re not careful enough.
Lechem81@reddit
If they manage to get on top of the high crime and migrant situation (they seem to have made a good start) which state would you most like to move back to? I’d love to try New York or California for a few years but the governors seem hell bent on destroying those states 😢
thepageofswords@reddit (OP)
Michigan, where we are from. We'd only really be moving back for family.
Lechem81@reddit
Ah ok - good luck with your next move!
Careful_Ad5394@reddit
America rules. Go back. Stop being a brainwashed pussy
Practical_Gas9193@reddit
Before thinking about Denmark, look into whether it is even possible to get a visa.