In rare move, Dutch government takes control of Shanghai-owned computer chipmaker Nexperia
Posted by ObjectiveObserver420@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 166 comments
Either-Arachnid-629@reddit
I remember european representatives were quite angry about the cold shoulder China gave them during the EU–China Summit.
They pull shit like this and still wonder why non-Western countries tell them to go fuck themselves.
Thangoman@reddit
Im in favour of countries controlling their own markets but the way Europe treats China is silly, they want to still get everything cheap from China but they wont allow them to get anything beyond that
EmployAltruistic647@reddit
Europeans have a history of exploiting the world. That's partly why they got so rich. Netherlands was one of the great colonial powers back then
DeepState_Auditor@reddit
European countries are refusing to face reality.
Ruby2312@reddit
Not like their opinion matter? We all saw how Trump put his hand up their ass and they cant say shit, doubt Trump is the first one that so stuff like this but the previous one usually do it under a table
BasedBalkaner@reddit
Can't wait to see the worldwide outrage when China takes over a western company
Ugliest_weenie@reddit
Clownish take.
Appeasing China by letting them control all semi conductor production globally would be catastrophic, not just for the EU but other BRISC counties as well.
China has already shown they are willing to use coercsion and boycott when it comes to rare earth. This will be far worse.
_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit
Hah, you aree shocked that China tightening the tap on rare earths? Why? You thought they would keep supplying the raw materials for the West war machines? The same machines that might one day be aimed straight at China?
Tell me, why should China play the docile supplier while the US and EU hoard strategic autonomy like it's gospel? The world was never so much embargoed, sanctioned, but when China plays the same game, suddenly it’s "economic coercion"?
And why China controlling semi conductor industry would be bad to BRICS? BRICS are not sanctioning or engaging in economic war against China... The opposite actually
DevA248@reddit
News about current events and geopolitical discourse are still very much dominated by the old colonial ways of thinking. China has grown up and is no longer a weak, colonized pawn like it was a century ago. However, the Western bloc still views itself as superior, and Westerners expect to be treated according to their status.
As a result, you get things like this. It doesn't matter how militaristic and genocidal the West is. Somehow China is still the boogeyman, China can't have this, China is coming to get you and your technology, etc. etc. etc.
Westerners still view themselves as the only ones deserving of power or military in this world. China and the third world are expected to supply the West without asking for anything in return. I may not be Chinese but I'm happy that China is finally punching holes in this framework.
Funkliford@reddit
Pretending China isn't the world leader in industrial espionage is laughable. They routinely steal Western technology and intellectual property, the examples are endless. Every other week they're in the news for stealing sensitive military technology and/or secrets, or because their spies were caught, or they were caught performing ransomware attacks or hacking large corporations. Get real.
DevA248@reddit
"Every week they're in the news." Yeah. Which news, pushed by which countries.
You seem to be influenced by the news and your environment without being aware of it.
Funkliford@reddit
American news,Canadian news, Taiwanesee news, German news, UK news, ... take your pick.
BendicantMias@reddit
Those are all western alliance news sources. No Africa, no Latin America, no non-allied parts of Asia, etc. You just listed out American hegemony lol!
Funkliford@reddit
Lmao, yeah, I'm sure the Germans and Dutch and the rest of the world are completely fabricating the threat posed to their countries and are just jailing random people. All at the behest of the US. /s They've been rought red handed countless names ya goof. Your compatriots even admit it, they just laud it as based.
ShootmansNC@reddit
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Funkliford@reddit
If you're going to adopt that stance then don't whine and cry when stuff like this happens.
ShootmansNC@reddit
If the wests wants to shoot themselves in the foot they're welcome to.
Actions like this surely won't have any foreseen consequences whatsoever.
Funkliford@reddit
Admits China is stealing technology and lauds it as based, cries about bigoted Western countries trying to protect themselves from said stealing
MrWFL@reddit
People will call the west colonial and imperial, while Russia is engaged in an imperial war for terretory, and Europeans cannot even buy Chinese companies.
Also, be carefull what you wish for. I have a Chinese girlfriend, and one of the main things i learned, is that China doesn't believe in friendship between nations, only benifit for China. So if you think that China and Russia punching holes in this framework will improve anyone not China, think again.
DevA248@reddit
Russia is not related to this. Ironically, I think another big indicator of the Western mindset is the compulsion to instantly mention what Russia/China is doing whenever the West gets the slightest bit of criticism.
I wasn't even arguing that China is "better" than the West. I was making a subtler point which seemed to go over your head.
I don't understand how your Chinese girlfriend is related to the discussion, can you elaborate?
MrWFL@reddit
It gave me deep insight into the political unspoken differences between cultures. Plus no real stakes for me personally, i have an easy way into a Chinese visa, and have been to China multiple times.
Ok, then what about the Chinese attacks on Philippines? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea
It didn't go over my head. Your main point is that from your point of view, westerners are arrogant, have a superiority complex, and think they always are on greater moral standing.
I'm arguing, that while it might be true for some westerners, in my experience it's true for everyone. That's why so many cling to their culture and nation even after fleeing it for the better opportunities the west offers. And while the west was on top, it tried to practice game theory. When the west won't be on top alone anymore, and noone practices game theory anymore, but chess, the entire world will be worse off.
DeepState_Auditor@reddit
The whole south China Sea issue, has been massively twisted.
China is one of what 6 countries that are all claiming sovereignty over the same waters?!
Vietnam is the claims even more territory then any one.
onespiker@reddit
Vietnam is atleast close to it and thier claims pretty much follow thier coast China isn’t at all. It’s pretty ridiculous claims.
DeepState_Auditor@reddit
It's called the south China Sea why do you think it's eve called that if it isn't close to China???
DevA248@reddit
Sigh. Comments like yours used to be hilarious, but now it's disappointing.
Like, you literally did the meme. I mentioned how Westerners can't take criticism without feeling compelled to bring up what China/Russia is doing, and in response to that, you said "What about what China is doing over here."
My point clearly did go completely over your head. No, I am not talking having an "arrogant, superiority complex." This is not about emotions or inner psyche.
I'm describing the expectations imposed on discourse. Those expectations are overwhelmingly one-sided, and take comments like yours ("What about China doing this over here!") as totally normal elements of discourse. That's not something that can be "both sides"-d. It's not something that is "shared" in the opposite direction, because it reflects a social relation, not just an internal feeling.
For the record no, I find it pretty laughable that you think the West not being on top will make "the whole world worse off." You're literally doing the meme again. And what's funny this time is you are responding to a comment about how often Westerners do this, by doing it yourself some more.
cools0812@reddit
How is this supposed to be a "china bad" moment when it is simply a common-sense description description of the nature of international relations? As so eloquently put by this famous quote:
MrWFL@reddit
And look where it's gotten the UK.
cools0812@reddit
i dunno, the largest empire in history? a century of pax britannica? a fiscal legacy so hefty that they are still able to be the 6th largest economy after decades of bad decisions?
shieeet@reddit
lmao
Rofl even.
_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit
Unbelievable
Funkliford@reddit
Lmao, pretending China isn't the world leader in industrial espionage, that it doesn't routinely steal foreign technology and intellectual property is laughable. Seems like every other week we're hearing we're hearing about spies being caught, plans stolen, ransomware attacks or other hacks.
NecklaceDePerlas@reddit
Why would more competition in the chips market hurt Brazil, Russia and South Africa?
Either-Arachnid-629@reddit
And you think that, after the clear failure over the last decade of jointly suppressing their development in the field with the US, this is going to be the coup de grâce against them? Lol, and my take is clownish.
GrowingHeadache@reddit
Your take is absolutely clownish. This isn't about hurting China particularly. It is about ensuring we don't lose the knowledge or the company, because of it's importance to our security and economy. The board is accused of misconduct and the courts stepped in.
Partially it could be about stopping any transfer or knowledge to China, though Nexperia is not at the cutting edge at all.
The fact that this is a rare move here in the Netherlands gives a lot of credibility about the intentions.
CharmCityKid09@reddit
Gotta remember, to a good portion of people in this sub West bad, East good no matter what they actual facts are.
qwertyalguien@reddit
Since when did this happen? I remember this sub being more neutral overall. Just a place to escape the astroturfing. Now it feels astroturfed the other way around.
turbo-unicorn@reddit
Since roughly 24th Feb 2022. It was still somewhat decent for the next year or so, but now, it's basically worse than worldnews in the level of discourse. Somehow.
Fulgore101@reddit
Tbh, I think this is one of the few places that isn’t steeped in (understandably) pro-Western bias on Reddit which to many Westerners comes across as explicitly ‘West bad’.
CharmCityKid09@reddit
There are quite a few posters here that purposefully engage in distinct anti west rhetoric, posting, etc. Many of which have been called out before for distorting facts and information or for trying to lump separate topics together just to make an anti west comment. You may not think that's the case. However, the prevalence of comments like that on unrelated posts showcase a different picture.
shieeet@reddit
And there is also a truckload of Zionists on this sub posting in almost every thread, so does that make this a pro-Israel sub as well? Every so often, people unironically call this sub some kind of anti-Western echo chamber and, in the same breath, start mewling and sniveling whenever some comments don't conform 100% to a Western-chauvinist perspective, and it is so goddamn thin-skinned and whiny.
CharmCityKid09@reddit
There really isn't. But there are several whiny people here who can't help themselves but bring up Zionism or Israel when it's not part of the discussion and derail comment chains on it. Like you're doing now.
Mo4d93@reddit
And you wonder why some people think west is bad? You are the living proof. Still defending Israel, even after a genocide.
YeeYeeAssha1rcut@reddit
They never seem to make the this distinction the other way around for all the subs that explicitly state ”west good” and nothing else
PerunVult@reddit
China has been seizing foreign companies for 2 decades now. That's their modus operandi and method of "modernisation": lure foreign subsidiaries, then seize assets and tech.
goonerladdius@reddit
Ya let's just completely ignore the long history of shady and hypocritical shit China has been doing.
BendicantMias@reddit
Gotta love how westerners use whataboutism themselves when it suits them, but then cry foul about it if anyone else does it and it doesn't suit them. You would be crying whataboutism if anyone tried making your kind of argument in a story about Russia, but do it yourself when it's about you.
El-Pintor-@reddit
Easterners do the exact same shit so at the end of the day everyone is the same. To you west = bad, east = good. To westerners west = good, east = bad.
BendicantMias@reddit
The difference is that easterners didn't invent the term 'whataboutism' in order to avoid accusations of hypocrisy, the west did. Sure the east is also often hypocritical, but you can point that out. It's the west that made up a word to dismiss those charges. There is NOTHING wrong with pointing out hypocrisy - of the west or east. 'Whataboutism' is just a convenient word to dismiss it.
El-Pintor-@reddit
Actually that’s not true, there is a similar concept in my native language. Everyone is a hypocrite
goonerladdius@reddit
they framed this as an aggressive action on the part of the Dutch when it is a protective reaction to Chinese actions hence the relevance of China's actions in the past, it's not whataboutism
Either-Arachnid-629@reddit
China is shady? Lmao.
“China is a threat to the EU and they don’t play by the rules, why don’t you see this?” Well, european powers were the largest source of misery for most of the world for centuries and changed the rules whenever it suited their interests.
The only reason you aren’t screwing everyone else as much as you did until the mid-20th century is that the EU doesn’t have the unified policy power to contend with the US and China.
Don’t be surprised that people aren’t sympathetic.
goonerladdius@reddit
So historical abuse by European powers invalidates their real security concerns now? This is whats a called a tu quoque fallacy. Followed up by a nice strawman, "Europe would do it too if they could". It's not about sympathy or emotion which is a point I think you've missed completely. This is the Netherlands protecting itself as China pursues coercive measures against them. So when you reply no wonder non-western countries tell them to go fuck themselves when they pull shit like this, you're treating the reaction as the aggression, and missing the point completely. But ya whatever right west bad.
ycnz@reddit
You were complaining about China's long history of shady shit. Your country really can't afford to have others think too much about your history.
goonerladdius@reddit
What's more relevant to this post, Dutch colonialism or a Chinese track record of IP theft and state sponsored corporate espionage?
ycnz@reddit
If you're trying to seize the moral high ground and expecting sympathy from third parties, both are.
goonerladdius@reddit
And if I'm trying to have a discussion on the subject matter of this post?
ycnz@reddit
Find someone who gives a shit about your cherry-picked boundaries?
goonerladdius@reddit
Lol no need to get salty
Either-Arachnid-629@reddit
No, love, this is not about “you did this too, so China is good,” much less about hypothetical scenarios.
Europe was far, far worse for most of the non-Western world than China is today, and it’s not about what you could do, but what you did systematically for four fucking centuries.
Fuck, France is still fucking with most of francophone Africa to this day. They just gave asylum to a corrupt African president.
You’re just being a hypocrite.
goonerladdius@reddit
This post is about the Netherlands protecting itself from China and you've managed to make it about colonialism. says it all really.
oneintheuniver@reddit
How tf it ended up owned by china in the first place, if it is such important company? When it was convenient, they took Chinese investments, and now they are taking it away.
goonerladdius@reddit
Wasn't a political priority yet at the time and the common screening mechanisms that the EU has now didn't exist yet, it was also not considered as crucial as ASML but that has since changed. So no it wasn't about convenience its about shifting priorities and addressing challenges.
Minimum-Ad-2683@reddit
Are you sure you’re not just sucking up to trump Europe and fascism always went well together in the past
goonerladdius@reddit
Lol u managed to bring Trump and fascism into this, wtf are u on about?
Minimum-Ad-2683@reddit
Well there’s trade tensions on the largest economies on the planet, do you live under a rock
gorbao@reddit
Not that far-fetched, considering this move was made at the behest of a US ultimatum. https://www.ft.com/content/db019842-01a9-4488-a6a0-45d0e102536b
NP_equals_P@reddit
It's called theft.
goonerladdius@reddit
Sure bud
NP_equals_P@reddit
No, it's not. It's plain theft.
Either-Arachnid-629@reddit
The Netherlands are trying to present it as a security measure, but for everyone else, it's just old double standards about the property rights of your own people and those from a country you aren't fond of.
goonerladdius@reddit
Doing some crazy mental gymnastics are we?
Either-Arachnid-629@reddit
Your logical contortions to justify the seizure of private property without any prior official communication are even more impressive, love.
goonerladdius@reddit
Did you even bother to read the article? Wingtech still owns it financially, but with restricted operational control.
Either-Arachnid-629@reddit
If I seize your house and pay you rent, aren’t your property rights still being violated? Lol
goonerladdius@reddit
Property being seized and being violated are two different things if you want to be snarky at least be accurate.
Either-Arachnid-629@reddit
Don't really understand the concept of temporary and/or partial seizure, do you? If the state takes usufruct of a private asset, regardless of the maintenance of ownership, the property has been seized.
goonerladdius@reddit
Legally and constitutionally speaking it is not seizure, this is a temporary regulatory restriction. Our constitution literally allows the infringement of property rights under certain circumstances.
Either-Arachnid-629@reddit
I don't really care about your laws and judicial doctrine. I'm pointing out that while your country might try to justify this or call it whatever the fuck it wants, under international law (which holds that expropriation, whether full or partial, should be accompanied by due process) having your control of your property curtailed by the state without prior notification will be regarded as a partial seizure by most foreign agents, not just China
goonerladdius@reddit
By the standards of international law it isn't expropriation either and the case will receive due process under dutch law. Did you even read the article?
Either-Arachnid-629@reddit
"The recognition of the concepts of indirect expropriation, de facto expropriation, measures equivalent to expropriations or acts tantamount to expropriation is well established in judicial practice. Even before the introduction of pertinent treaty provisions, international courts and tribunals have treated indirect takings and equivalent measures in the same way as direct expropriations. For instance, in the Certain German Interests in Polish Upper Silesia (Chorzów Factory) Case17 the Permanent Court of International Justice held that the expropriation of the Chorzów Factory also constituted an indirect expropriation of the patents and contracts of a different company “Bayerische”. The latter company merely had rights of management in the expropriated factory and the Polish authorities never purported to expropriate it."
goonerladdius@reddit
You're miss applying the precedent. Nexperia’s case involves temporary, lawful, compensable intervention, not permanent deprivation of ownership or economic rights.
Either-Arachnid-629@reddit
Taking control of a private asset, even if not its profits, without prior due process is inarguably an act tantamount to partial expropriation.
Taking a peek at what the legalese in the rest of the world says about this situation, even within Europe, you might have an unpleasant surprise.
goonerladdius@reddit
Taking temporary control for national security or strategic continuity is legally distinct from partial expropriation. Idk what to tell you mate ur either using the wrong terms for what you're trying to say or ur just wrong.
Minimum-Ad-2683@reddit
You do realize though that this happened before China banned exports of rare earth. It was almost like a direct reaction to this move
goonerladdius@reddit
This isn't about rare earth's for the netherlands, it's about protecting strategic interests in the semi conductor sector, China has a well known history of illegal obtaining western IP's and the EU has woken up to the need to protect those in the last few years that's all.
Minimum-Ad-2683@reddit
I mean it’s a little bit too late no? They even owned the companies since 2019, just looks like a knee jerk reaction to trump
BendicantMias@reddit
The guy who used whataboutism is naming fallacies now? Lmao!
b-b-b-b-@reddit
luckily the netherlands zero history of shady shit. no funny business here
goonerladdius@reddit
I'm obviously talking about China's history of IP theft and state sponsored corporate espionage which is relevant to this post. How is duch colonialism relevant here?
Practical-Bank-2406@reddit
Besides, every major country has some history of shady shit. You don't get to be a major country WITHOUT some shady shit.
elvss4@reddit
This is such a copout, using whataboutisms to justify the shady move the Dutch government is doing. . . But but but China the real bad guy they did bad thing once
goonerladdius@reddit
It's not a whataboutism, they framed this as an aggressive action on the part of the Dutch when it is a protective reaction to Chinese actions hence the relevance of China's well documented history when it come to IP theft and economic positioning.
elvss4@reddit
It’s theft plain and simple
goonerladdius@reddit
So you didn't even bother to read the article?
Lil-sh_t@reddit
You're 100% correct and this comment section is weirdly stupid.
Like, China is known to create excessive reliance and then choke local economies with threats. Or to downright blackmail entire countries if they don't get what they want / are slightly critizised.
Plus, the recent European - Chinese history is: Europe opened their markets for China and expected similar behaviour from China. Yet China simply bought European companies for tech transfers while heavily pressuring European purchases, joint ventures and cooperations in China and downright restricting some cooperations.
Not to mention how some Chinese companies create Chinese villages in Europe, by and to exclusively hiring them as staff for Chinese companies.
All the other comments here are extremely unaware and, frankly, worryingly pathetic. Acting like they're some 'enlightenend' folks with the ability to see things from an unbiased outside position, while having 0 clue about anything. The 'Whataboutism' response you got for pointing out why some European governments are reluctant was peak unaware comedy.
Minimum-Ad-2683@reddit
They took over the company and have grown it 8 fold since then. What happened to free markets?
GianfrancoZoey@reddit
No one in the west actually believes in free markets, it’s all just bluster
Minimum-Ad-2683@reddit
Makes sense
kapsama@reddit
And yet when third world countries take over Western companies that engaged in shady shit they also become the villain.
Tails you lose, heads I win.
Funkliford@reddit
Poor China. :'( Acting like they're a victim in this and haven't done the same thing when they've been stealing technology and IP for decades is absurd, but about what you'd expect.
BiboxyFour@reddit
I’m struggling to understand your comment. Is it meant literally or did you misplace something in your sentence because it would be so far from reality the way you worded it.
China pulls shit like this. Through tactics where they let European companies open factories in China and pressure them out of them to take them over. And in the last decade they’ve been shopping for high-tech companies on European soil as well. On the other hand, try to by a Chinese company and see how it goes.
puppymaster123@reddit
One is norm, this is an exception. The headline says so itself.
China is doing this on annual basis. Off top of my head there are Bain and the Mintz group
TheS4ndm4n@reddit
Dutch government explained that they took control because the CEO was laundering money.
He bought 200 million worth of wafers from a Chinese company he owns. While they only need 75 million worth. The rest was destroyed.
The entire finance department was fired when they protested and replaced by people with no financial experience.
Nmos001@reddit
So Elon musk is money laundering by forcing his companies to buy to buy up cybertrucks they don't need? They should get seized by the the government?
They are a semiconductor company with more than 2bil in revenue and growing. Buying an extra 130mil in materials (the primary material in semiconductors) is not unreasonable. Plus who is to say they only needed 75mil, disgruntled employees? Or Dutch gov needing a excuse?
imunfair@reddit
Well that's an escalation, the cold war with China just went from preventing them from buying western chipmaking equipment and cockblocking their tech company contracts across the west to actually taking companies that they own. I'd imagine they won't take kindly to that.
It makes me a little sad that we've lost such a lead that we're now fearfully using anti-competitive methods to cling to whatever marginal advantage we have in certain areas, rather than just out-innovating them.
It feels like we've spent an exorbitant amount of money on the other side of the world blowing things up over the past few decades, from Iraq and Afghanistan to Ukraine, and now the waste is coming home to roost - karma for vaporizing trillions that could have been spent on something useful.
BiboxyFour@reddit
We have to resort to using anti-competitive methods because they already do, and they did for decades, only recently they switch to acquiring key tech and ports directly because companies stopped falling for the older methods.
Otherwise they started by forcing any company that wants to invest in China to do a joint venture with a Chinese company and allow knowledge transfer. Later on they would just steal the knowledge and lock the foreign company out of future contract. This started in the 2000s and companies accepted this anti-competitive terms because they didn’t want to lose a billion people market. And now they have to face the reality of not only losing the Chinese market but having China export copycat tech for cheaper. Google these examples:
There are also other nasty tactics such as the way they forced Uber out. They kept fining them through regulations that would only be applied on them but not on the Chinese competitor, until Uber had to sell out but not in exchange for cash rather for a share exchange which gives the Chinese company 100% of Uber China but Uber only got 17,7% of the Chinese company.
You cannot out-innovate a country that steals your tech in a globalist economy where you’re the only one mandated to share your technological edge.
ShootmansNC@reddit
So they fell victim to their own greed.
Skill issue.
leviathan235@reddit
Stole? LOL you mean effectively purchased. The same way China “stole” the west’s industrial capacity. It was a devil’s bargain for western companies to make bank by shifting production to China and extract the highest margin out of the value chain, leaving China with low margins, but in exchange, China gets the benefit of tech and knowledge transfer. Perfect example is Apple, who shifted so much production in China. Foxconn earns like 3% margin while Apple earns like 25+% margin on a higher denominator. Guess what? Apple willingly skilled up Chinese suppliers and engineers! That exchange was high profit margins for technical knowhow. Face it, China outplayed the west by exploiting the west’s capitalist system, playing by the west’s own rules. It was a multi-decade plan, and it played out swimmingly. Check and mate.
BiboxyFour@reddit
I think you might have misunderstood my comment. I’m not even talking about the cheap consumer products. In my examples I mention core infrastructure critical technologies where Chinese companies are the customer.
I’m not going to go into every one of them you can do that on your own, but starting with Siemens/Alstom/Bombardier. China was in the Market for high-speed rail. Above companies bid to supply trains. China made them make a joint venture with a state rail group and share everything: train designs, engineering drawings, manufacturing process, and the production was largely local. After that they not only excluded them from future contracts but compete with them globally with design they got from them in the first place.
I say to google it because this matter is of course opinionated and one needs to form one’s own opinion but here is a Bloomberg article on the topic.
I can also go into detail on how the CRH380B is based on the Siemens Velaro and the CRH5 is based on the Alstom Pendolino. I love train and I like to nerd about his stuff :p
leviathan235@reddit
Im well-aware of China’s strategy. In fact, I did due diligence on the way China acquired the blueprints to the advanced AP1000 nuclear reactors. China is basically the ENTIRE nuclear market in the world, basically the only country investing in nuclear power at any meaningful level. They have the leverage to require any bidders to submit the blueprints of their most advanced nuclear reactors within X years, with the understanding that China will be able to build those reactors themselves and cut out those bidders after X years. Same playbook as your trains.
My point is that China leveraged its overwhelming bargaining power to exploit the fundamental incentive structure of western capitalism for its own gain. It’s honestly brilliant - you have to concede. I didn’t truly appreciate it until a few years ago.
I replied to another comment about how it’s inevitable that the western companies will play ball. They simply cannot afford to give up such a massively lucrative contract with China even if it means long term, they’re cut out.
Also, I don’t think you’re being fair to Apple, calling it cheap consumer goods. Much of its hardware technology is incredibly innovative.
BiboxyFour@reddit
The Chinese model proves that the population size is key. In a globalist economy you cannot pass on the biggest market. But they wouldn’t have had the opportunity to that extent if we didn’t have the framework set by the WTO, which they strong armed.
I personally don’t believe in a globalist economy. It only helps the rich get richer. The globalist ideology got pushed back then after the cold war, arguing that a world where trade and production is so diversified yet integrated cannot be at war with each other, well..
leviathan235@reddit
For sure, population size is a HUGE source of bargaining power. That said, we cannot discount the value of a pragmatic leadership with high state capacity and national mobilization. I'd argue that's the fundamental difference between India and China, but that's a whole different discussion.
I agree with you regarding globalism (specifically global capitalism), in that I am a staunch believer of true civic nationalism and it's power to lift a nation of people up. Global trade should only be pursued insofar as it benefits the people - that means certain industries of high priority must not be owned by foreign entities (that said, nationalism doesn't preclude mutually beneficial trade and international cooperation). That also means there are certain industries that must never be outsourced. We also must remember that smaller countries simply will not have the capacity to become self-sufficient in critical areas - e.g. Singapore cannot possibly be self-sufficient on military hardware. However, it's absolutely inexcusable that India doesn't have self-sufficiency on its defense hardware.
imunfair@reddit
Sure you can, no one forced those companies to offshore their manufacturing to china, or to pursue chinese contracts. In a world where everyone had some measure of foresight the entire market would just ignore countries with those type of regulations and they'd have to build their own alternatives unless they learned to play nice.
leviathan235@reddit
No, it was inevitable that the companies would outsource to china, thereby enabling China to capture the technical knowhow. The entire western capitalist system demands it. Corporate shareholders do not give 2 hoots about national security - they just want line to go up. The chinese market and supply chain is simply too attractive for western companies to neglect - if you don’t take the devil’s bargain, your competitor will!
imunfair@reddit
I guess you're too young to remember when we actually manufactured things in the US and corporate espionage was a much bigger thing. Hell, now a lot of companies even give away their manufacturing secrets to video bloggers on YouTube so even if they don't make the product in China all a knock-off company has to do is watch their video to see the secret sauce.
On the other end of the spectrum there are a few hugely successful companies like Coca Cola who don't even patent the secret sauce to avoid knockoffs - those are the ones with foresight.
And to your point about "corporate shareholders demanding offshoring", you're wrong. A good CEO would have the foresight to know and explain the long term negative impacts of saving a couple cents in the short term. The market only requires that the company be managed for the good of the investors, it doesn't mandate that you have to prioritize this quarter's profits at the expense of the future of the company. People often misunderstand the distinction and think companies are forced to chase quarterly profits at the expense of long-term vision when really it's just bad C-suites doing that.
leviathan235@reddit
China didn’t have the right ingredients or open up back then - it wasn’t until after 1978, and even then, it took time for China to properly industrialize and build the foundations needed to support and incentivize investments from western capital. No other country had the same allure as China did, especially going into the 21st century.
No, you’re wrong. My work puts me in touch frequently with people who are direct decision makers with regards to capital allocation decisions, and I know with absolute certainty that they are incentivized purely for profit and shareholder value alone, invariable very short-term focused, because shareholders demand it. If you think the stock market somehow incentivizes long term thinking, im sorry to say, but you’re delusional. Just look at what shareholders did to Intel and how it squandered its lead to TSMC! Investors absolutely hate capital intensity and long investment payback periods. They punish the exact industries that China specializes, like hardware, infrastructure, etc. What’s the result of those incentives? Exactly the situation we find ourselves in today.
It’s game theory, at the end of the day. If your company refuses to take China’s devil’s bargain, your competitors will. And the stock market will richly reward them and harshly punish you. It’s a core feature of the system, not a bug…
imunfair@reddit
Being personally incentivized by personal bonuses to make poor decisions is not the same as being legally required to be a bad/greedy CEO. As I said, it's bad C-suites doing it - literally putting their own compensation packages above their duty to the company.
It's like dating a fuckboy and then being surprised when it goes pear shaped instead of ending in a marriage proposal. If you don't like it either have a shareholder vote and put someone in who respects the company, or invest in companies with better leaders, or industries that can't be offshored.
Your whole logic is basically a prisoner's dilemma argument - that you have to take the short-term china money and run otherwise your competitor is going to fuck themselves by doing it. Well okay, let them do it then, don't force a bad move just because you think someone will eventually do it.
You use TSMC as a counter example to Intel, but they're a perfect example of what happens when you get ahead and then guard your technological advantage carefully. You can look at someone like Rocket Lab for instance who's still a relatively small but fast growing player in the space sector and not only are they not offshoring they're doing the opposite - vertically integrating as quickly as possible with multiple acquisitions over the past few years for different satellite part companies. They're publicly traded and have a CEO that understands how to prioritize the company over quarterly profits.
Everything else is just nonsense excuses by bad managers or greedy people who wanted to chase the bag knowing full well it would be at the expense of the long term success of the company.
leviathan235@reddit
You’re refusing to acknowledge the fundamental flaws in the system despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Answering to the board of directors and shareholders and earning your incentive compensation is literally the entire jobs of company management teams. Shareholders do not care about your 10-year vision or managing for the eventual risk of geopolitical confrontation with China, they care about the next 2-3 years at best. What you call a “prescient” executive is a “crappy ideologically-driven” executive to the shareholders and the BoD. That guy will never make it anywhere near the C-suite, and if he does, he will be quickly fired because he just let his competitor sign a big 9-figure contract in China uncontested. This is how the system works - exactly as intended.
TSMC is a bit unique because China doesn’t have much leverage over them besides military (currently). They really have no competition at the highest level, so there’s nothing China can really do to force them to hand over their technology. Cutting edge chips are of critical strategic interest, and TSMC is effectively a monopoly. So in this case, TSMC has leverage over China. For now.
imunfair@reddit
Literally the biggest figure in US investing for half a century - Warren Buffett - is exactly the opposite and does exactly what I described, looking for long term value over quarterly profits. Those who survive the race to the bottom are those who don't look at the market as a foregone conclusion like you do.
leviathan235@reddit
If 99% of participants in a system behave in a bad way, is it because the participants are all just morons or is it because the system is flawed and they behave like that by design? If a baby is born in a county where drug abuse is rampant, you don’t think there’s an extremely high chance they will also grow up a addict versus growing up in a normal county? The incentives in the system and environment are so overwhelming, it would be a miracle if the baby doesn’t grow up an addict and somehow breaks out of the cycle.
I’m simply describing to you what is objective reality - the entire system rewards this behavior we both find objectionable. You can pass normative judgments on the failures of western executives until you’re blue in the face, but ultimately change nothing so long as the current system persists.
BiboxyFour@reddit
It’s a free market. If you don’t, eventually someone else will. If they don’t steal the tech from VW maybe Peugeot, BMW would have agreed to a similar agreement and since it’s a globalist economy, you will still be exposed to competition from the Chinese market after they acquire the know how, only this case you were never involved and you earned nothing.
It should have been illegal to offshore this knowledge to begin with. It only started trending with the emergence of China as a cheap labour market and with the globalization of supply chains, and regulation didn’t catch up. Or, which is more likely, our politicians back the knew that this hurt us the workers at some point in the future but they sided with greedy CEOs
Opening_Pizza@reddit
Look for China to seize a Dutch company operating in China as a retaliatory measure. ASML might be the target. Western media will react with shock, like it was totally unprovoked.
moonorplanet@reddit
If China really wants to send a message they could implement a US Style sanction, whereby any ship that docks at Rotterdam can't visit a Chinese port for 6 months.
onespiker@reddit
Doing that would hurt thier own exports to Europe a lot. They have the biggest port in Europe. They manage a lot for other countries that’s then sent to them from the Netherlands.
Revolutionary-Bag-52@reddit
why would they want to hurt their own exports big time?
HugoTRB@reddit
As Rotterdam serves much more than just the Netherlands, you would piss of a few more countries by doing that.
BendicantMias@reddit
ASML isn't in China. It has an office there, but it makes its chips in Europe.
Doesn't matter anyway. China can simply restrict its rare earth exports, a market it utterly dominates and is crucial for semiconductors, in retaliation. Even the US is intimidated by that. Hence why, for example, India was slapped with 50% tariffs for buying Russian oil but not China, despite that China buys it more - even God Emperor Trump was spooked by how they'd retaliate.
Alternately they could hit other sectors the Netherlands depends on, like shipping. China also dominates the global shipbuilding industry. Or just punish a Dutch ally like Germany by raising tariffs on their cars or something.
bippos@reddit
I mean same way around? China limits rare earth metals and the eu limits ASML technology and machines. It would take China a minimum of 10-20 years to replicate stuff that asml does
BendicantMias@reddit
China doesn't rely on ASML lol, they were barred from that a decade ago. Despite that they've managed to come within one generation of ASML's best, clowning on your much hyped restrictions. 10-20 years? Lmao! They're at most 2-5 years behind. They're also investigating alternative technologies, like SSMB. ASML was not always the cutting edge of semiconductors, it arose to prominence in the 2000s. You aren't as special as you think, Swede.
onespiker@reddit
The machines they used to get to the to the maximum before euv was on Asml machines aswell. So not especially unique on that regard.
bippos@reddit
2019 isn’t a decade ago that’s 6 years ago and they are still importing their older products just not the high end ones. 2-5 years is the biggest exaggeration of the century more like 10-5 A MINIMUM, China won’t let you in just because you grind on them online. I never said asml was always dominant meanwhile you can’t decide if they are developing or already aren’t dependent on asml XD
Dikhoofd@reddit
That would not play out that easily; Netherlands has a few great big ports and could easily frustrate Chinese shipping, or restrict ASML and (notably) powdered milk exports, the latter being a status symbol in Chima
BendicantMias@reddit
Powdered milk? You're gonna hurt them with powdered milk?! 😂
Dikhoofd@reddit
Not so much us, as they themselves
BendicantMias@reddit
That's nearly 2 decades old lol. And besides, food safety is a regulatory issue - your example just proved that even 20 years ago they didn't need you to get their milk. They may put a premium on your brands due to that incident, but they don't rely on them. Not to mention that plenty of other places also produce milk. This is a laughable example of your supposed power over them.
Dikhoofd@reddit
I guess standards differ. I was going to make a terrible joke until I checked the sub I was on. Cheers and good luck with your Bangladeshi soft power!
thisweirdusername@reddit
I can get ASML but powdered milk? They could easily buy from Australia instead.
M0therN4ture@reddit
Australia buys from Europe.
thisweirdusername@reddit
https://www.nationmaster.com/nmx/ranking/dry-whole-milk-powder-production No where is europe on this list
M0therN4ture@reddit
Pretty much all dry milk companies of high quality are European. Nestle, Danone, FrieslandCampina... I'm sure they produce locally and globally.
In fact, FrieslandCampina produces in china itself and has various different brands under their business model:
https://www.businessresearchinsights.com/market-reports/infant-milk-powder-market-122143
fatbunny23@reddit
ASML doesn't make chips anywhere as far as I know lol, they make the machines that make the chips
Beliriel@reddit
And they pretty much have a knowledge monoploy on that. If ASML doesn't service your fabs you have a short time before your factories shut down.
BendicantMias@reddit
No they don't. The only chip fabrication machines they specialize in is EUV. Semiconductors is much larger industry than just EUV. But you know what all semiconductors still need? Rare earths...
fatbunny23@reddit
ASML has a monopoly on EUV tech, but Canon and Nikon at least still have a pretty big presence in older fabs. Only the most cutting edge technology is running on 12-in wafers with EUV lithography, lots of older tech is still perfectly serviceable and thus in demand. Lots of fabs are around running machines from the '80s still lol
BendicantMias@reddit
I meant those yeah.
TheRealOriginalSatan@reddit
China got slapped with 100% more tariffs what are you talking about
BendicantMias@reddit
That's just Trumps' latest temper tantrum, watch him water it down in weeks.
When he implemented his much hyped secondary tariffs, he didn't hit them.
TheRealOriginalSatan@reddit
Doesn’t matter if it’s a tantrum or not. Your assertion was that he doesn’t slap tariffs on China. Mine is that he has His previous 125% tariffs are still applicable too
BendicantMias@reddit
He's called TACO for a reason - he often backtracks if you don't fold. And China hasn't folded, resulting in him chickening out before, and will again.
ph4ge_@reddit
That would we funny, seizing an office building and losing access to a key technology because of it.
CRSemantics@reddit
Foreign Companies in China already have to be under a Chinese partner who has links with the government.
Many foreign companies already complain how these partnerships are just there to steal trade secrets and train up the Chinese workforce so that China can then funnel government money into a local company and push out the foreign company.
It's why Tesla's deal with China is really odd, they didn't have to partner with a Chinese company in order to operate in China.
Technical-Activity95@reddit
maybe china will just continue to steal tech
onespiker@reddit
How would they be able to do anything important to ASML. They dont make thier machines in China.
goonerladdius@reddit
Maybe they'll retaliate against ASML by attempting backdoor tech extractions via employees and shell companies. oh wait they already did
GrAdmThrwn@reddit
Everyone talking about how China can retaliate with Shipping, Rare Earths and spare parts availability is absolutely right but sleeping on the real own goal here from the Netherlands...
Old ass laws made for emergencies are rarely seen as a contemporary risk by corporate / tax lawyers when structuring global entities.
New laws have a lot of complexities and loopholes, partially for precision and legislative flexibility to weigh in on a case by case basis, and partially because industry itself often pushes for it during early consultation when drafting said legislation.
The Goods Availability Act is an old ass law with wartime/emergency levels of power shifted to the government. Dutch Courts won't have the leeway to award compensation in the same way they otherwise would because the legislation is pretty vague and sweeping.
Therefore companies will have to take this into account when investing in Netherlands. Lawyers cannot write off the risk as some obscure law that never got repealed, ergo, any risk assessment done of investing in Netherlands or including them in a global corporate structure will result in a higher risk rating now.
We'll see if it has an effect in a year or so, but my two cents is there will be some capital flight in high risk industries and lower influx of new businesses/offices being opened in industries focused on anything covered under the Goods Availability Act, which, being an old ass emergency law, is anything.
bippos@reddit
I mean you’re talking about this like it’s something new? If you’re governments are unfriendly against one other expect stuff to be confiscated or nationalised. Even then you won’t see investment dry up simply because a lot of investment aren’t from individual countries it’s from companies and rich guys who see opportunities
manek101@reddit
Such acts increase the risk for companies and investors as well, not just the government.
Any Chinese investor will be hesitant to invest into Dutch industries now.
GrowingHeadache@reddit
I highly doubt it. We have a different law system than in the USA or UK, and while in this case an old law is used, the Judge always takes its relevance and proportionality into account.
It is also not the case that this is done by an autocratic government on a power trip. This is clearly, and I really mean clearly, done to protect the company from fucking up even more. As they are a significant part of our security.
Unilever and Shell were free to leave our country. ASML definitely isn't. Investors know this upfront and calculate this in. So i doubt any extra capital is at risk. If anything, if the board did fuck up, the stock should eventually get higher
cloud_t@reddit
I guess a double dutch sandwich is out of the menu.
GrAdmThrwn@reddit
From a tax law outlook that has been somewhat off the menu for a few reasons for a while now (for new structures anyway, there are better alternatives), but to avoid poluting my hobby with my work, I'll just leave it as: retaining some of the structures set up in that way was still favourable because of sunk cost, investment and economic incentives offered to companies that are still paying bank.
That said, a big part of maintaining that investment is the additional security and stability of not rocking a smooth sailing ship. Big corporations are surprisingly bureaucratic and ironically take risk assessment pretty seriously. Insurance companies are even worse because, well, weighing risk is their job.
So while BEPS related stuff has lessened the tax benefits somewhat of structures like the double dutch, actions like this in the OP are highly likely to tip the scales towards some other country that isn't likely to go around nationalising shit because of who owns shares where.
For perspective: even the Russian assets confiscated after 2022 are still nominally Russian. Straight up taking them would be theft, legally speaking. Even taking the interest earned on those holdings is problematic and likely to result in diminished investment into EU by foreign governments (if it hasn't already). But that's hitting a foreign government. This is hitting a company which opens a wholy different can of worms from a free market perspective, even if the company in question here (Nexperia) was partially state owned (I think its 'partial' at least).
Most companies that are traded publicly have a responsibility to shareholders to grow the value of their investment. Funnily enough, that growth often comes from...more investment. Whether Western Countries like it or not, Chinese investment is a welcome injection for most companies and actions like this from Netherlands would make any company have to rethink whether it is worth their while to avoid Chinese shareholders.
cloud_t@reddit
I was just making a low effort pun and not really judging any side of this. I do appreciate that this induced in some more quality analysis by your part which may (and I say this sincerely) help those taking this a bit more serious than me.
GrAdmThrwn@reddit
You know, I tend towards being the same, but certain topics like tax make my inner lecturer emerge like the hulk.
Hobbit_Hunter@reddit
Hulk TAX!
Minimum-Ad-2683@reddit
Thank you, for your very long but incredibly informative take
Ugliest_weenie@reddit
Good, more counties should take serious action not to lose control over critical production.
The world will objectively become a worse place, if one countries controls all means of production.
Competition, commerce and dialogue is necessary for peace.
_ferko@reddit
Will become?