Would you still work in Germany if you could easily work abroad?

Posted by Extra_Loquat_5599@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 57 comments

Diclaimer: this is not a bashing post, germany is great on many Levels !

Hey everyone,
my parents moved to Germany in the 90s, like many others back then, because of the economic situation and better opportunities. I grew up here and stayed mostly because of the money, the stability and the general quality of life.

But honestly, the weather, mentality and overall culture just don’t fit me at all. I feel it every year, especially during the darker months when everything feels heavy and gray.

I’ve also lived and worked in other countries, including my parents’ home country, and I’ve noticed how much things have changed. Places that used to be behind economically have really caught up, while Germany feels increasingly stuck in bureaucracy, work culture, housing and even people’s general mood.

So lately I’ve been asking myself why I am still here. It used to make sense because of the better pay, stability and social security, but that gap is shrinking and life elsewhere often feels lighter, warmer and simply more human.

I know this might sound ungrateful or dramatic, but I can’t be the only one who feels this way.
What do you think? Would you keep working in Germany if you could easily move abroad? And if you already did, where did you go and how does it compare?

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ContributionSafe3545@reddit

There’s probably a rule in your contract that says you can’t do your job in another country and certainly not from outside the eu.

If there isn’t your hr department will surely still make a problem of it.

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Striking_Temptation@reddit

Former American now dual-citizen also arrived in the 90's. Could easily leave and live elsewhere but am not steered from the weather as I grew up in a blizzard area in the states. No I would not. I cannot enjoy the summer without a good winter. Love all seasons. To tell you the truth, without stating your parents original country because you are embarrassed of it does not help in us understanding your situation....just saying.

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minhnt52@reddit

No, I wouldn't. In fact I worked in Germany for 5 years when I was in my 20s. I felt liberated when I accepted a job in Montreal, Canada. I'm Danish.

No bashing intended, but the German culture depresses me. Full disclosure: my daughter is German and lives in Hamburg.

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lilidox@reddit

May I ask what made you leave Denmark?

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minhnt52@reddit

I was 18 and wanted to see the world. I've since worked or lived in Germany, Canada, the US, Turkey, and Vietnam.

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Daidrion@reddit

my daughter is German

My condolences (just joking).

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089PK91@reddit

Native German here: No, I wouldn’t.

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PlatypusTrapper@reddit

Seeing as you are an EU citizen, aren’t you free to work anywhere in Europe? Why do you stay where you are? Or are you saying you wouldn’t want to work in the EU at all?

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kingmustd1e@reddit

Where do you see comparable salaries in the eu? For me salary is the answer.

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Thunderplant@reddit

Where would you like to go instead?

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WittyYak@reddit

Genuine question, I’m trying to understand the thinking behind your answer.

Since you’re a native German, it isn’t possible for you to experience an expat’s position in Germany from a cultural perspective (which is a large part of the OPs question).

What makes you think that a native German has an answer to what an expat feels in Germany and would like to stay or not, in an expat sub?

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yoghurtyDucky@reddit

Idk man, I am so in between in this topic myself. Have moved to Germany six years ago, integrated well, can speak the language etc.

I kind of got used to the buroucracy and things taking longer. And I genuinely appreciate the quality of life and the safety here. So many good qualities that definitely keep me here.

On the other hand there is.. the culture and mindset of people. Yes, I integrated to and can function as a part of it very well, but I very much do not feel happy and that I fit in. I find people here so tense and unempathetic.

Just some examples of things observed would ruin average German’s whole month, but I genuinely do not mind for example when/if it happened to me:

I REALLY don’t care if my neighbour is making a bit of noise or disposes glass on a sunday.
I REALLY don’t care if your (non-aggressive) dog comes and says hi to me/to my dog without my permission.
I REALLY don’t care if you come to a meeting 5 minutes late.
I REALLY don’t care if there is a bit of dust in the hallway due to mandatory renovation of our building.

The list goes on but you get the idea. I am very careful of obeying the rules and not stepping on any toes here, but I cannot keep but asking, is this the life I want for myself? Do I not only want to keep tiptoeing around smallest of behaviors, but do I and will I really ever identify with a mindset, in which the smallest of inconveniences becomes a “katastrophe”? Idk man.

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Daidrion@reddit

I kind of got used to the buroucracy and things taking longer. And I genuinely appreciate the quality of life and the safety here. So many good qualities that definitely keep me here.

Be careful with that, that's how Stockholm syndrome develops. I also started to get comfortable (6 years here as well), but recently I talked to some of the new colleagues and no... All the things that I've been thinking are "maybe it's not too bad" are actually that bad, you just kind of get used to it.

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Thunderplant@reddit

That's probably for the best tbh, everything has problems and life would probably be a lot more annoying if you never got used to the annoying things in your country/work place/kids schools etc

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machine-conservator@reddit

Dunno what part you're in, but maybe try another region/city on for size? Been finding NRW very hospitable coming from the west coast US. The live and let live vibe is very present, at least in the cities.

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Bonnsurprise@reddit

100% with you especially about the dog!!

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DeliriousBookworm@reddit

I have six expat friends living in Germany. They have been living in Germany for 8-10 years. They all love it. One is Russian, one is Ukrainian, two are American, and two are Canadian. My Russian, Ukrainian, and American friends plan on staying forever. My Canadian friends love Germany but do want to return to Canada. They miss their home town a lot (Niagara-on-the-Lake). It has nothing to do with not enjoying life in Germany.

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SmoothPoem9536@reddit

I was working remotely and got caught up with hype and moved to Berlin 3 years ago, even took a pay cut. The dumbest decision I have ever made in my life.

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iggy-p0p@reddit

Why do you consider it a dumb decision?

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Extra_Loquat_5599@reddit (OP)

Oof, my condolences. I hear this very often for some reason.

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LetTheChipsFalll@reddit

31M from NL. Bro, I am a western EU bitch. I know a lot more than I need about NL, BE, LUX and FR. I have living experience in those countries. Not only touristic visits.

DE border is just couple of 10 KMs far. I have been to different places in DE, not much but enough to judge. Forgive me DE lovers but DE is the worst country to live for me by far. It is not about economics or driving a fancy car…

Life in DE is based on making the life harder for others. Everyone is behaving like an asshole. Police are nasty. They still live in a language bubble in which they believe everyone will speak German if they reject to speak English. I am a global person I don’t really care your race or beliefs etc but Germans are trying to force me to become a racist.

So I am not surprised with what you are saying.

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FrauAmarylis@reddit

Redditors in this sub constantly bash Germany. I’m not German, but I definitely saw why some places there consistently rank at the top of the Quality of Life indexes for Europe.

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Choice-Ad1477@reddit

Standard of living can be high if you're German. Don't make the mistake of thinking that standard is available to the immigrant.

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Daidrion@reddit

At the same time, Germany scores among the lowest in expat indexes.

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Choice-Ad1477@reddit

Germany has almost nothing going for it. I'm convinced the only reason people stay there is a mixture of inertia and good marketing.

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ethicpigment@reddit

Most Germans don’t like change, they are hardly going to move to another country, plus the language barrier

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Daidrion@reddit

I know this might sound ungrateful or dramatic, but I can’t be the only one who feels this way.

Just stop with that. You entered a mutually beneficial agreement with Germany and fulfilled your part. There's no need to treat yourself worse just because you got born in a (at the time) less developed country.

What do you think? Would you keep working in Germany if you could easily move abroad

That's my plan, yes. Because all of the things you said.

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Timely_Meringue1010@reddit

Naturalized German here: no way

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Timely_Meringue1010@reddit

let me elaborate a bit

apart from the reasons people usually list, e.g. climate, culture, bureaucracy, there is another one that is primary to me

simply put, life in Germany is a life on a very hard mode

there's always, and i can't stress it enough, ALWAYS something on your plate of things to do

things that in the grand scheme of things completely minor and unimportant

but still things that have to be done in order to carve a bit of personal time and breathe a little

there's barely a single week without:

a letter from a government institution asking to submit some form or renew evidence submitted last year
a bill or a notice to pay for something or to do something
a clash with a governmental or private organization about badly performed services
a backlog of letters from insurances, tax authorities, banks
a backlog of appointments that need to be scheduled in advance of 3-6 months
a backlog of unresolved issues with the landlord, insurance, utilities, internet provider

granted, you have to deal with similar shit in other countries too

i lived in Russia and US and it's always the same kind of stuff on your plate

BUT

in Germany, these issues take much more of your time

insufferably more

like hours and hours weekly if not daily

and i'm not mentioning the mental load

here, you just can't pick up the phone, call a number and resolve a contract dispute or an insurance case within minutes

nope, you will still need to send a follow up letter or fill a form or schedule an appointment

you can't just call your landlord and tell that the toilet flush is leaking and expect someone to come and fix the thing in 15 minutes

no, you have to call, then fill a Mängelanzeige form, then wait for a callback with a proposed visi in two weeks

you can't just cancel the internet service contract for not connecting the service within six months

no way, you have to send a few letters back and forth, wait a few weeks, still be stuck with the contract, then contact a lawyer or the telecom watchdog and hope they will help you out

and this shit goes on and on

my personal, weekly trello board is full of these little things

in fact, i never thought i'd needed a trello board to deal with daily tasks until i moved to Germany

on my desk there's always a backlog of letters that need to be answered and i keep post stamps and various forms of envelopes in bulk quantities

i never thought i'd needed to keep postage material in bulk quantities until i moved to Germany

so it's still kind of the usual reason people list — bureaucracy and culture

but this mix creates a unique combination of hard life i've never seen elsewhere

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shezofrene@reddit

your post is detailed, but saying life in germany is on hard mode while people from africa and middle east exist is a bit extreme in my opinion

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Bonnsurprise@reddit

This is totally how it is!!! For me it’s a full time job just dealing with all the things you outline.

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Alternative-Being263@reddit

I feel your pain, and know exactly what you mean. This shit happens in the US all the time--so much so that my partner and I joke about every basic task requiring 100 extra steps (surprise).

I think what's maybe slightly different from Germany (I've lived there as well) is that our problems usually stem from dealing with incompetent people in daily life (both public / private sector), broken govt agencies, or intentional "sludge" (deliberate inefficiencies created by companies to give you the illusion of relief or a process, but no actual assistance). Sludge is a real term; there's an excellent article here in The Atlantic about it (sorry for the paywall).

For example, for any service you need, you have to 1) assume you know more than the person who is employed helping you, and 2) become your own expert once that help fails. I have had state employees give me illegal advice for doing my taxes, and hired professional tax consultants who couldn't answer my basic questions or who were dismissive of me by saying what I was doing was illegal (it wasn't). I've received estimates from 7 different roofing companies and each one has told me there's a different problem with the roof. You have to always assume someone is trying to screw you over in this country.

Government services at multiple levels often simply don't work: they either don't have a bureaucratic process in place for your niche problem, or you contact someone for help and they never assist you. Oklahoma is notorious for privatization of govt services that would normally be handled by a department of motor vehicles. The quality went down drastically; the result for me and many others was the lack of appointments to do basic tasks and I had to drive halfway across the state and wait in line early in the morning just for the chance of seeing someone the same day to get my driver's license. My partner had to go completely across the state to do a driving test. This is several hundred kilometers of extra driving for no reason. Meanwhile, my foreign partner's company screwed up her tax withholdings to the govt, and now the IRS owes her $6-10k in FICA taxes that will likely never be returned to her because they're so dysfunctional (even before Trump).

Sludge is a huge topic. I've dealt with customer service phone numbers that don't actually exist. We bought a fridge recently that took me literally 30-40 interactions and about 7 months total to order the fridge, then get the door replaced under warranty since it was damaged on arrival. I kept being bounced around between the fridge manufacturer, their parts department, and their third party vendor. It's nuts to call, email, and chat with people that many times and still never get anywhere.

Oh, another fun anecdote: have you ever been texted from India for someone asking you to pay a doctor's bill from a hospital? I have, and it completely came across as a scam despite being real. Doctors are allowed to have their own separate billing, so receiving multiple bills after a hospital visit is always a fun time. Then when these Indians keep telling you you haven't paid, you have to constantly call them back and fight with them...

You realize eventually it's by design, and due to the lack of regulations in this country the onus is put on the private individual to solve all these problems. The govt doesn't care. Private companies do it for profit and if anything are only getting worse.

Thanks for the Trello suggestion. I might seriously have to do that, because calendar is a cluster fuck of tasks already.

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Timely_Meringue1010@reddit

that's curious to hear

maybe that kind of daily task inflicted pain has accumulating nature

likely yes, as cortisol can build up over time

another explanation is the more busy your life is—work, business, kids, building/buying real estate—more minor tasks you have to do daily

it may explain my memories of life in Russia (being native to the country and young) and the US (not enough time to sample all aspects) being on easy mode

while in Germany after a decade, the life has accumulated some garbage

as a wise man once said, "the grass appears greener on the other side, but that's because you don't see the knee-deep layer of manure"

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Alternative-Being263@reddit

I agree with you, I think being busy means you're more likely to run into these issues. Many of my friends are unlikely to ever do so, but as is alluded to in The Atlantic article, it seems like everyone has personal stories about sludge and dealing with this bureaucracy. It's a nice piece of investigative journalism if you can find a way to read it.

There are some things that are uniquely bad about the US system, such as our complex tax and healthcare systems which aren't designed to be people-friendly. Most Americans think of spring as "tax season" for a reason. For some people, it's a weekend task; for others it takes weeks to sort out.

I was born and raised in the US, so a lot of the problems I described are routine issues here. However, some are due to being with partners who are immigrants--that adds another layer of complexity which seems to confuse bureaucrats and consultants.

I was a student in Germany, so life was definitely easier for me than the average person--like you suggested above, I didn't sample all aspects of life there. But German bureaucracy is famous worldwide I think. 😎

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gachigachi_@reddit

As a native German who left Germany, I agree with every single thing you mention. Before I moved to a different country, I thought that this is just what life as an adult is like. Turns out it's just Germany.

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broken_heartyk@reddit

No i would leave

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cryptomuc@reddit

80%-german here: i left a year ago and my peer group is either also on the jump right now or at least considering it for the next few years

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Moke94@reddit

As a person from Sweden who has been to Germany but never lived there, I might have an unusual perspective. I'm used to the cold weather (and also what many considers some of the coldest people), so I think moving to central Germany would probably be a step up weather-wise and potentially also mentality-wise. Wages might be lower, but the cost of living also often is.

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oils-and-opioids@reddit

Person living in Germany: absolutely not. I've had dental surgery less painful than dealing with the Ausländerbehörde.

I wouldn't recommend Germany to pretty much anyone I know looking to move abroad. Living here is like being stuck with all the worst parts of the 90s, and none of the good parts.

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K3MEST@reddit

Moved here from the US. You don't move to Germany to make money and take it back with you. If you connect well, make friends, learn the language it is a great place to have a family and live your life. If you're planning on taking money back where you came from there are certainly better options. Yes the bureaucracy is pain, but it's still a lot better than living in a city where there are drive by shootings every night and I am afraid to send my kid to public school.

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Bighadj69@reddit

Hell no they acts like NPCs

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Argentina4Ever@reddit

Of course not, I'm trying to get my fiancée to leave Germany haha... I work for an US firm remotely with a great salary, above the German standard and because German bureaucracy is so rigid about not working under German job contracts I chose not to live there at all to begin with.

I only visit her as a tourist for those 90 days at least once a year, while waiting on her to be ready to ditch Germany for Spain. She's a first generation German (born with German citizenship but to Russian immigrant parents) and doesn't really feel much attached to the country but there's still some pendencies to deal with first.

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gachigachi_@reddit

I'm a native German working in a fully remote company. I got them to transform my contract into a freelance contractor role, so I could leave. Best decision of my life.

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machine-conservator@reddit

I mean, I moved here from abroad to work, so yes. If I could download another language into my brain instantly there might be a few other contenders but I'm pretty happy here and the QoL is great. I actually like the weather though, it's probably not so pleasant for sun loving people.

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P-Diddly-Squat@reddit

Came on this thread to find a positive comment :D I'm also from the US and came here to work. Yes, I took a pay cut to move here, yes the bureaucracy is a headache...But I get so much more for money here in Germany than I ever did in the US, I like having the stability and not having to always worry about safety, the salaries are some of the best you can get in the EU.

I definitely miss some parts of the USA - the freedom to do whatever you want without social judgment, the variety of people and experiences you encounter every day, the openness of some people. But at this point in my life, the financial stability, safety, and peace of mind I experience on a daily basis makes me feel very comfortable here.

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NiceSmurph@reddit

May I ask what country are you comparing Germany to?

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SwordfishMelodic7659@reddit

Where did you immigrate from? Your point of view will be different if you come from Switzerland, Iceland, the Netherlands, or India?

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Extra_Loquat_5599@reddit (OP)

From eastern europe. Most countries there developed pretty nicely over the years and the salaries in Tech are higher there than here in Germany.

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tvpsbooze@reddit

I know many Indians who don’t want to live in Germany. They just live unwillingly as Non-IT salaries are lower in India. Most want to go somewhere else or back to India. Actually know a few who are actively working on career, some money, buying home and heading back to India once better opportunity arises.

Latin Americans are one group I have seen who may want to live here bit longer than Indians and then jump to Spain.

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sread2018@reddit

Having worked for German companies and clients, absolutely no way

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No_Try6944@reddit

As an American, I can’t believe how low salaries are for professional jobs in Germany. I would rather beg on the streets than work there lol

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FunAdministration334@reddit

The one that boggles my mind is that nurses take home around 1500/month. Insane.

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tvpsbooze@reddit

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Professional-Yak1392@reddit

I feel ya. If I could easily work abroad, I'd definitely explore it. Germany's good for stability but sometimes the culture fit just ain't there. Many countries have caught up economically. It's about finding where you feel more at home and happier, even if it means less initial pay. Prioritise your well-being.

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