When did the word “Appalachia” change??

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Illustrious-Try-7524@reddit

West Virginian here and we all pronounce it the 2nd way it is typed out.

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brokeboipobre@reddit

Technically, people from Appalachia always said it as, "ah-pa-latch-a", but if you weren't from that area then you said it as, "ah-pa-lay-sha".

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My family is from the eastern edge of Tennessee and Kentucky, and in my memory they really never referred to the region by either pronunciation. It was always more specifically the Smokies, the Blue Ridge Mountains, or just "down south". They never felt any kinship to the northern stretches of the Appalachian range and were far more culturally connected to Southern culture even though they viewed Hillbilly culture as something unique within that larger group.

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brainybrink@reddit

Yep… there’s been a gradual change since the 80s that instead of making fun of how people from different areas may pronounce where they’re from we just accept and use their pronunciation instead… more recent example? Kiev.

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percypersimmon@reddit

Did that happen around the same time as we stopped calling it THE Ukraine?

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Vladivostokorbust@reddit

That was only when they lost their sovereignty to the USSR and “the” referred to a region

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rodw@reddit

At the risk of stating the obvious, yes and for the same reason.

When Ukraine was part of the USSR mainstream American media conventionally used the Russian pronunciation of Kiev (key-ev) and referred to the area as "the Ukraine" (presumably as a shorthand for "the Ukraine region [of the USSR]).

To be fair that doesn't quite explain why they used the phrase "the Ukraine" and not, say, "the Georgia" (either one), "the North Dakota" or "the Kashmir". It seems like in the general case "the whatever" is reserved for regions without formal political boundaries like "the everglades", "the panhandle", "the Pacific Northwest", etc., right?

But whatever the reason (and while some culturally sensitive or aware media might have made the shift much earlier) I'm pretty sure that both the definitive article and the key-ev pronunciation were still widely used in conventional American English up until the start of the most recent conflictm

On a semi-related note: can anyone point to when and why the "thal" sound at the end of "neanderthal" morphed into something more like "tal" or "dal"?

Am I crazy to think that up to maybe ~10-15 years ago the conventional American English pronunciation included the "th" sound? And in this case the "pronounce it the same way the locals do" argument would not seem to apply

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EyelandBaby@reddit

For me it became neander-tal in 2010 while watching Big Brother 12

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rodw@reddit

I don't own a TV. Was there someone on Big Brother 12 that used the word neanderthal often?

Even better (fingers crossed) was there someone everyone else on BB12 described as a neanderthal with such precision they all used the proper academic pronunciation?

I do actually own a TV. But I haven't seen Big Brother.

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EyelandBaby@reddit

Big Brother is guilty pleasure summer viewing for me. I’m fascinated by social dynamics and how personalities respond to stress. The show locks sixteen people in a shared house with no tv, no internet, no reading material (other than sacred texts) for a few months so they have nothing to do but interact with each other and compete for each others’ votes to stay.

It can be horrible. It can also be hilarious (especially the Australian version, which is somehow the best) and touching. Unfortunately bullying and name-calling usually arise, and in BB12, contestant Brendon Villegas (who was a phd student) corrected the pronunciation of someone who called him a Neanderthal.

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Tornadoboy156@reddit

I think that part has been lost on English speakers - the Soviet Union stopped existing 35 years ago so it’s not in the popular consciousness like it was when most of us were coming up.

I once corrected someone on their use of “the Ukraine” once and they told me it was because of it starting with U as in “the United States”. That’s understandable, but also we don’t refer to Uganda as “the Uganda” yknow?

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rodw@reddit

The "the U[...]" argument almost sounds plausible but your Uganda counterexample pretty much ruins that theory.

I've actually been pretty curious about the "the Ukraine" thing since American media started using the (Ukrainian) "keev" pronunciation a few years ago but I've never been able to find anything that explains it.

I have the same ignorance about the history/culture in that region as most Americans do but in the last few years it's become pretty clear that Ukraine was always economic and industrial powerhouse in the region. It's no coincidence that most of the USSR's nukes were in Ukraine's hands when the USSR dissolved and everyone (including their flag) seems to call Ukraine the "breadbasket" of the region (if not "Europe" as whole).

So my naive speculation is that Russia probably always saw Ukraine as a rival (for influence within the USSR) or a secession risk and hence Moscow probably preferred "the Ukraine" since it downplayed their identity as an independent state.

I don't have any evidence to back up that idea but that's the only explanation that makes sense to me.

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Tornadoboy156@reddit

You’re on your way to something there but I’ll give a brief overview - I not only live next door in Poland (raised in America tho), but I’ve made this part of the world my academic interest.

Present-day Ukraine is essentially where Russia was birthed. In medieval times the area was referred to as Kievan Rus (where we get Kiev “key-ev” from as this is the Russian-language spelling and pronunciation, as opposed to Kyiv - “keev” which is the Ukrainian language name) and the embryonic Russian civilisation migrated both and eastward from there while still leaving some people behind. It’s not that Ukraine is a rival of Russia - it’s deep in the Russian psyche that Ukraine belongs to them. It’s why you’ve likely heard reports about Russians denying the legitimacy of Ukrainian heritage, language and culture; to them it’s not actually separate, just an offshoot.

Calling it “the Ukraine” I think (THINK) originates from when British industrialists populated the area in the mid 19th century, and that’s where we get the tendency from in English. Believe it or not, Slavic languages like Ukrainian, Russian and Polish do not feature articles like English. As such, ‘a/an’ and ‘the’ do not exist. I’m still learning how to deal with that.

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rodw@reddit

Thanks for sharing your insights. I really appreciate it.

I was questioning whether the American media would have used Moscow's preferred framing in the first place but if they don't use articles like "the" in the first place the English phrase probably has nothing (directly) to do with Russian interests in suppressing Ukrainian national identity.

Based on the narrative you shared it would make more sense to me for Ukraine to see Russia as part of Ukraine rather than vice versa. I'm sure if I asked some Russians they would say they do, but they for sure aren't the ones acting on that belief.

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AdjunctFunktopus@reddit

We also spell it Kyiv now. For some reason, Ukraine has opted to drop russian spellings in favor of Ukrainian.

Pretty similar reasoning even decades later.

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rodw@reddit

For some reason lol. Good on you.

Thanks for the correction, I sincerely appreciate it

Per Wikipedia it looks like:

Київ is the proper spelling in the Ukrainian alphabet ("Ukrainian Cyrillic"?)
Russian Cyrillic doesn't have that ї character.

" The Russian spelling of Kyiv appears to be Киев

Does that mean that the ї vs е is the whole difference between the Ukrainian pronunciation ("keeve") and the Russian one ("key-ev")?

I.e. I assume you guys have always spelled it Київ and the latin alphabet spelling of "Kiev" was based on the Russian pronunciation (and the preferred Kyiv is based on the Ukrainian pronunciation). Is that right?

I guess another way of stating the question I'm trying to ask is: Did

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ATheeStallion@reddit

Neader-tal I didn’t know it was “tal” until my first anthropology course in undergrad 25 years ago.

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cheesy_bees@reddit

when and why the "thal" sound at the end of "neanderthal" morphed into something more like "tal" or "dal"?

Am I crazy to think that up to maybe ~10-15 years ago the conventional American English pronunciation included the "th" sound?

Here in Australia I only hear it pronounced with "thal" at the end.

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rodw@reddit

That's the way I remember it being used in the US as well but in the past several years in the US academics and "high brow" media presenters have universally shifted to "neanderTal". Frankly the word doesn't come up that often but it's obvious that's now the preferred American English pronunciation among people who know what they are doing.

I'm going to have to dig up some Australian presenter saying the word "neanderthal" because based on the crude model of an Australian accent I have in my head I'm having trouble hearing the "thal" part either way.

In my defense I have known some genuine Australians IRL so that accent isn't just based on Paul Hogan level stereotypes - and maybe I'm just kinda shit at parsing accents outside of North America - but (assuming this ABC show that's gained some global attention is popular enough in Australia too that you'll at least roughly recognize the reference) sad as it may be that bit in "Fisk" where she's mocking the American guy for not recognizing the difference between an Australian and New Zealand accent is 100% valid. I've seen enough FotC to suspect I can do it a little better than most Americans but I still fall back on "New Zealand folk seem a little more soft spoken".

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cheesy_bees@reddit

Aus vs NZ are quite similar, the main difference I can think of is the "i" sound (as in "chip") is more of an "uh" sound in NZ.

But we are all perfectly capable of pronouncing "thal", ha.

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rodw@reddit

Just to be clear I never doubted it

But in my head I still can only hear:

A. as the Honourable Peter Garrett singing it as a sort of snarling "t-hal"; or

B. more or less exactly like a neutral US accent

But this is a failure of my imagination.

TBH I can only vaguely get to "straya" from "Australia" without hearing one of you guys say it first.

i don't think I quite grok the pronunciation rules of the Australian accent in a systematic way, beyond:

changing words like "bar" and "car" to "bah" and "cah" in a way that's somehow unlikely the stereotype of a Boston "townie" accent
dropping the hard "g" at the end of words ending in "-ing"
often adding an extra "r" sound at (near?) the end word based on criteria I don't understand

I should pick a specific Australian accent and figure that out first. I'm probably doing the Australian equivalent of looking for patterns based on a random mix of Texan, New Yorker, Minnesotan accents.

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Super_Direction498@reddit

To be fair that doesn't quite explain why they used the phrase "the Ukraine" and not, say, "the Georgia" (either one), "the North Dakota" or "the Kashmir". I

Especially because Russian doesn't even have definite or indefinite articles (a, the, etc)

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percypersimmon@reddit

Thanks for the info.

Your semi-related note is interesting as well!

I don’t have an answer but it did remind me that when I was in middle school in rural WI (and a pretty Germanic area) that I had two different teachers with the same last name that ended in -thal (to this day I don’t know if they were related, married, or coincidental…they were always very cagey about it) but one pronounced their name with Tall and the other with a Thal

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rodw@reddit

As I'm sure you're aware English is a f*ing mess and I can't claim to understand this but I think the phenome (?) we now spell "th" might have evolved from a different glyph(?) from "t" (or "h"). Old English had something called a "thorn". I think that's our "th".

But there's an H sound in "thorn" and no H sound in "Thomas" (and yet the H sound comes back in "Thom Yorke" right?) so as far as I can tell in English you can't necessarily assume anything about pronunciation based on spelling alone

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pm_me_your_amphibian@reddit

What do you mean the h comes back in Thom Yorke?

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rodw@reddit

I could be wrong but it is my impression that Radiohead frontman Thom Yorke's first name isn't pronounced exactly like the "Tom" in "Tom Sawyer".

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pm_me_your_amphibian@reddit

It’s just short for Thomas and retained the h in the spelling.

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TactileMist@reddit

Funnily enough it is the pronounce it like the locals thing. Neanderthals are named for where they were first identified, in the Neander Valley in Germany. The soft 'th' doesn't exist in German, hence the shift.

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wrathiest@reddit

(One of) the meanings of Ukraine is “the borderlands” which, if you say “the Ukraine” implies it is part of something else. By calling it just “Ukraine”, you are calling the country its name.

Note: I picked this up over the course of the past few years and am not a Russian or Ukrainian speaker.

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Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit

Yeah, when they became an independent country instead of part of the USSR or the Russian Empire.

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sunshineparadox_@reddit

I wish they’d learn how to Raleigh, though. “Ray-Lee grates my fucking nerves.

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chunkerton_chunksley@reddit

my wife's grandpa lives near a city in Missouri called Japan. It's pronounced Jay-Pan...and I just can't bring myself to say it.

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MotherofaPickle@reddit

I live in Missouri. It is very difficult for me to pronounce a lot of town names the way the locals do. Because, you know, I got up past the sixth grade and like to pronounce things correctly.

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Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit

But it’s not the correct pronunciation in Missouri.

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man_teats@reddit

It's pronounced MISERY thank you very much

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icy_sylph@reddit

This whole thread is about respecting the people who live in place and realizing that how they say it IS saying it correctly, rather than presuming that the outsiders OBVIOUSLY know better.

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716Val@reddit

I was working a photo shoot in the Ozarks and this old timer who was fly fishing nearby thought I was an alien because of how I talked (from NY). He told me the proper way to spell Missouri is: M-I-S-S-O-U-R-UH

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chunkerton_chunksley@reddit

I totally get mispronouncing Appalachia...it can be tricky, but Japan, Madrid, etc pronunciations are widely known. We do it here in texas too. I live off a street called Manchaca....Man-cha-KA...easy right? They call it Manchack/Manshack....Guadalupe is Guadaloop...yeah, Im not doing any of that either. Growing up my mom used to say she lived off a street called "Lah Pew-en-tay", the street was La Puente. lol

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Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit

My view in names like that is that Japan is a country in Asia, but Jay-Pan is a city in Missouri. It’s a different place, so the pronunciation doesn’t have to match.

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chunkerton_chunksley@reddit

I've never thought about it like that. That's totally fair. To me it always felt like I was cosplaying as "Huck Finn rafting to Kay-Roh". It just feels not genuine for me, as an outsider to say it. Even though we do it here in Texas too. lol

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Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit

Well, I grew up with a couple weirdly anglicized place names in the vicinity: Cadiz, Buena Vista, Berlin, etc. And then there are major cities like Des Moines, Detroit, Louisville, Baton Rouge, Montpelier, Terre Haute, etc.

French is my second language, so I came to this conclusion because otherwise I’d go crazy encountering cities like DuBois pronounced “DOO-boys” and Versailles pronounced “ver-SAILS.”

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Tornadoboy156@reddit

Are you a Yinzer by any chance?

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Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit

I’m a buckeye, but in the general yinzer area. (I don’t feel like I can truly call myself a yinzer since I didn’t grow up in PA. Definitely black and gold country, though.)

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ThelVluffin@reddit

We can't forget about beautiful Milan or Mantua either.

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Tornadoboy156@reddit

I had a feeling by your choice cities in the last part lol - same, not from Pittsburgh proper but from a bit outside there in the direction of WV and MD

Go Stillers!

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MotherofaPickle@reddit

I’ve always pronounced it “Rah-lee”.

Grew up near Chicago.

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JudgeJuryEx78@reddit

That is the correct pronunciation.

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rodw@reddit

Yankee here. It's "rah-lee" right?

I don't understand why anyone would read that as "ray-lee". I could see "ra-lay" maybe but the "ra" part seems to be pretty explicit. Are people parsing this like "Rale-igh" rather than ”Ra-leigh” or something?

I'll counter with the cities of Des Plaines and Cario Illinois, but that's on the locals (especially given Des Plaines proximity to Des Moines Iowa).

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sunshineparadox_@reddit

Yep it is! I can’t quite call myself a Yank, but I am a transplant. I’m from (the shittiest part of) Washington originally.

I think you may be right about the parsing actually. That’s a decent point. That makes the most sense to me! It still drives me nuts, but I can sympathize with the parsing.

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rodw@reddit

The shittiest part of Washington is on the other coast.

I will not field any further questions on that topic with the hope of pandering to both sides.

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sunshineparadox_@reddit

Ahaha I stand by what I mean. Those tumbleweed storms, however rare, suck. But I can’t argue that DC isn’t worse. Well played.

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Indras-Web@reddit

What’s worse is someone saying OreGone, not Oregon (gun)

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sunshineparadox_@reddit

That also pisses me off; I’m from Washington originally myself.

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illinoishokie@reddit

I have never heard anyone pronounce it Ray-lee. I can only imagine the face I would make hearing that. Were these people taught that's how Sir Walter Raleigh pronounced his last name?

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NeptuneAndCherry@reddit

He was such a stupid git

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SoupIsNotAMeal@reddit

You say you’re putting me on but it’s no joke

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sunshineparadox_@reddit

I have no idea. I should bookmark the clip of the Simpson’s episode around it where Selma as Queen Elizabeth I sends Homer off to war as Sir Walter Raleigh.

Side note- There’s a large anime convention there in May, and people dress up the statue of him there since it’s in the middle of downtown.

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Main_Pretend@reddit

It’s a perfectly cromulent pronunciation.

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Squirrel_Master82@reddit

I've only ever heard it pronounced like Rally. Didn't know the hard A was a thing.

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Otherwise-Ad-1051@reddit

I can remember the first time I came across an example of this. 2003 Gulf war era, people started pronouncing Qatar as "cutter". Before that it always rhymed with guitar.

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Checked_Out_6@reddit

It drives me nuts to call places by the names we gave them. Germany: Deutchland, Japan: Nihon/Nippon, Egypt: Masr, so many more. There is a big list at the bottom of this article for those interested: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/2/21/what-do-countries-call-themselves-the-stories-behind-their-original-names

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epidemicsaints@reddit

Deutchland has it the worst, every country calls it something different it's bonkers. It's different with a country like ours where you can literally translate "The United States" or "The Republic of..." into your own language but coming up with your own name for a place 200 years ago and sticking to it is weird.

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pixelpheasant@reddit

America is 200 years old ... English is waaaaaaaay older.

Is Deutschland is younger than America? I forget when the shift from dozens of little Duchies happened, and I feel like it was the years leading up to WWI?

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Chemical_Shallot_575@reddit

Responding to remind me of this comment. Thank you!

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Goudinho99@reddit

I respect that but I still want to say chicken kee-ehv

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MyNameCannotBeSpoken@reddit

And Republic of Türkiye

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gsijpo@reddit

Kiev is now pronounced as it is in Ukrainian whereas the older pronunciation is Russian, it’s said differently in the two languages

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Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit

Not exactly. The difference between the Russian and Ukrainian pronunciations is pretty subtle, especially to English speakers. But it’s not pronounced “kee-EV” in either language.

The old English pronunciation (kee-EV) was based on the romanization of the name from the Russian alphabet (Kiev). The current English pronunciation (KEEV or KEE-yiv) is based on the romanization of the name from the Ukrainian alphabet (Kyiv). The current pronunciation is much closer to how it’s actually pronounced in Ukrainian, but it’s also closer to the Russian pronunciation, IMO.

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brainybrink@reddit

You mean the difference between the people who live there v those who live farther away but had more impact on wider cultural acceptance? Like the topic of this main post and my comment?

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Bellemorda@reddit

I feel this is accurate in my experience. my southern WV family has pronounced it "latch-a" for at least the five generations I've known, and I'm sure longer since my mother and father (aged in their 80's) remember as many if not more older family generational members always pronouncing it "latch-a" their whole lives.

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Traditional_Entry183@reddit

I'm from WV and its always been App-Uh-Lay-She-Uh to me. I never even heard the other way until I traveled south to places like NC as an adult.

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twirlerblue@reddit

Also from WV and it’s always been App-a-latch-a to me. The only time I ever heard Appa-lay-sha was from people outside of the state. “If you say Appa-lay-sha, I’ll throw an apple-atch-a,” is how we remembered it.

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Traditional_Entry183@reddit

Probably depends on what part of the state. WV is highly eclectic. I grew up in Wheeling, and lived in Fairmont and Morgantown for a long time.

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sweetnsaltyanxiety@reddit

The middle finger of WV is the bastard child of Ohio and Pennsylvania, so that tracks.

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Traditional_Entry183@reddit

You can see Ohio from my parents front porch and PA is a short drive in the other direction.

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relikter@reddit

I grew up on SC and we always said it with the 't' sound. I think it was a regional thing that's become the more common pronunciation.

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mander00@reddit

I'm in Upstate SC in the foothills of the mountains and I've always said/heard "latch-a"

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Traditional_Entry183@reddit

Yeah, I've mostly only heard people with Southern and/or rural accents say it that way.

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playtheukulele@reddit

My family is from West Virginia and we never said appa lay cha. Its always been the correct, tribally influenced Appa Lah Cha where my family lives and they live in the northern panhandle area.

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OffensiveAnswer@reddit

I’m from the lower A-hills in Tennessee and it’s always been called app-uh-lay-shuh around me. Probably 99% of the time.

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LocationNo2127@reddit

Both are ways folks from Appalachia say it. Both are correct. Appalachia encompasses a huge area and there are variations from one place to another. The further north you go the more likely you are to hear "ah-pa-lay-sha". It is true that people not from the area are more likely to say it that way, but it's not true that people from Appalachia don't say it that way.

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arcxjo@reddit

Not here in the heart of the AppaLAYchians.

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Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit

I’d call the mountain range the App-uh-LAY-shuns, but I’d call the region App-uh-LATCH-uh.

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Alatariel99@reddit

Grew up in western NC. I've always used LATCH for the adjective (Appalachian crafts, Appalachian State) but I use LAY to refer to the region as a noun

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Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit

Yeah, I’d probably use LATCH for those adjective forms as well, but not the name of the mountains. Maybe because the mountain range extends quite a bit beyond the region of Appalachia?

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Beetso@reddit

Well this is just madness.

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Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit

That’s what I get for growing up Appalachia adjacent.

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DeniLox@reddit

That’s how I’ve thought of it too.

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azazel-13@reddit

App-a-latch-a is the correct pronunciation for two reasons. Firstly, you should respect how people who live there pronounce it and secondly the name originates from the Appalachee tribe who pronounced it App-a-latch-a. It's frustrating hearing people butcher it constantly.

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Demdok135@reddit

Grew up there. Shove your latch.

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azazel-13@reddit

Live here now. It's the most common usage. So, you can shove it up your latch.

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Fedelm@reddit

Nope. My family is from East Tennessee outside Knoxville and they've always said "Appa-lay-cha."

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JudgeJuryEx78@reddit

I'm from East Tennessee and everyone I knew said Appa-latch-a

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Fedelm@reddit

I've read there's a generational aspect, and I haven't been back in a while so maybe that's changed. Or it varies more than I thought.

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Appropriate-Food1757@reddit

Yes but we are right and they are wrong.

Like people from Worcestershire say it wrong as shit

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Beetso@reddit

To say it correctly you just need to break down the syllables like this: Worce (rhymes with force) ster (sounds like stir) shire (sounds like sure, like the British people would pronounce it in Devonshire or Yorkshire)

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Constant_Concert_936@reddit

The Brits I know call it “wuster” sauce. They don’t sound out the whole thing.

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iammjw@reddit

I respectfully disagree. My family is from Appalachian Pennsylvania and I always heard it pronounced with a long A.

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Reasonable-Wave8093@reddit

back-at-cha

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quickblur@reddit

Cleopatra comin' atcha!

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ep_wizard@reddit

Wow, that's a deep cut.

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djseifer@reddit

Damn, now there's a throwback.

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Deep-Ad4351@reddit

https://i.redd.it/rz4mc94ypsuf1.gif

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BloodyRightNostril@reddit

Which is the polite way of saying, “You ain’t from ‘round here, are ya.”

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jessupjj@reddit

Ohio, PA, and central NY have definitely been saying the latter at least since the 70s

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Indras-Web@reddit

Isn’t it literally a southern vs northern thing?

I have only heard latch-a by southerners

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Apprehensive_Hat8986@reddit

Given that virtually nothing in English was "always pronounced that way", digging was required. Sadly what found is short on citations, but is an interesting read on the descendants of some Peruvian emigres. Aparashi

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G00dSh0tJans0n@reddit

It’s pronounced App-uh-latch-uh in the south, generally south of northern Virginia.

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Vladivostokorbust@reddit

north of VA they say lay, south it’s latch. People outside the region all say lay But everyone knows what everyone means and needn’t get bent out of shape about it.

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leopardus343@reddit

Everyone who's not from Appalachia was saying it wrong. Source: I'm Appalachian

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Citycrossed@reddit

I’m from southeastern Ohio which is part of Appalachia. We say ah-pa-lay-sha in my family and town.

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Safe-Constant3223@reddit

The name comes from the Apalachee (app-uh-latch-ee) indigenous people. European mapmakers incorrectly identified the mountain range as the “Apalachen” after the Apalachee people, but the name stuck bc it was printed on the maps. So the correct pronunciation is latch. But as a born and raised Appalachian, idc really how other people say it, as long as they don’t try to correct my pronunciation.

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1radgirl@reddit

I'm from out west, and everyone I knew said ah-pa-lay-sha. Then I had a roommate who was from there, and it turns out that the people who live there say ah-pa-latch-a. And since I figure they know how to pronounce their words better than I do, I say it that way now too.

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calvinwho@reddit

I started after I moved there and learned better. Ignorance can be temporary

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CatBoyTrip@reddit

ya but we also says shit like winder(window) tomater(tomato) tobaccy(tobacco) and yeller(yellow).

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misterlakatos@reddit

Yeah same. Always said and heard ah-pa-lay-sha.

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Imaginary-Mix-5726@reddit

This. I said "lay" growing up in the Midwest, then dated someone in my 20s who was from there and said "latch." That was more than 20 years ago.

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bishopyorgensen@reddit

My family lives in middle Appalachia and I grew up out west saying "Lay" but when I moved here I heard some people saying "Latch" and some people saying "Lay."

In Pittsburgh (which is just outside of Appalachia) they say "Lay." In West Virginia it's more "Latch." I read a little and it seems like WV is kind of a meeting between northern "Lay" and southern "Latch" but "Latch" is taking over in social media and pop culture - probably because it sounds better

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Imaginary-Mix-5726@reddit

He was from WV, and this totally makes sense.

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penchick@reddit

I'm in Pittsburgh and I've only heard latch... that's interesting you experienced the opposite. Pittsburgh is the Paris of Appa-latch-ia

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mrperfectsusedtowel@reddit

Came here to say this! We are the Paris of Appalachia - literally in the heart of it.

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tessathemurdervilles@reddit

That’s so weird I didn’t even realize I made the switch and now appa lay sha sounds so foreign, and appa latch a is just normal! I married someone from there so I guess it just sorta switched over then!

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nitrot150@reddit

It’s like the east coasters that can’t pronounce Nevada or Oregon correctly either

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MKUltra1976@reddit

Ok I'll bite.... how do you pronounce them??

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1radgirl@reddit

Some easterners will say nev-odd-uh, instead of nev-add-uh, and or-uh-gone instead of or-uh-gun.

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sanebyday@reddit

I'm guilty of saying it like organ

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1radgirl@reddit

Weirdly enough, my western ears aren't as annoyed by that pronunciation as they are by or-uh-gone. But I don't know why! 😂

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nitrot150@reddit

Neh Vad Uh (vad like dad) and or uh gun

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Bajovane@reddit

Ryan Hall Y’all lives in Kentucky and calls it Ah-pa-latch-a.

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gesis@reddit

If you can't pronounce Appalachia, I'll throw an apple atcha.

I live in FL, but all of my relatives are from the "traditional Appalachia" region, and it's always been pronounced with a "latch" by residents, afaik. It's only the "extended" appalachia region and transplants that use "lay."

Same sort of thing happens in areas with Native American or foreign names where spelling would dictate a different pronunciation than "correct."

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Karadek99@reddit

I think the rest of the world finally listened to how the people who live there say it.

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CrunchyBookworm@reddit

I live in it…app a latch un

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carlitospig@reddit

I feel like if you were born nearby it was latcha but if you were born elsewhere we said it phonetically. It was always laysha in CA growing up.

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ChaucersDuchess@reddit

I’m from KY. It’s always been Appalatcha

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dogtor_howl@reddit

As others have said, it’s about saying the name of the place like people who live there. Most people in southern and mid Appalachia say ap-uh-latch-uh; northern Appalachians (think rural New York) usually say ap-uh-lay-sha. Oh, and the school in North Carolina is definitely AppaLATCHian State, not AppaLAYshun. My husband is from Ohio but went to school in WV where he learned very quickly from me and many other WVians that folks don’t take kindly to being told how to pronounce the name of their own home.

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Impressive_Owl3903@reddit

This. I’m from Kentucky and have always heard appa-latch-uh but that isn’t standard across the entire mountain range

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marcos_MN@reddit

For me, the singular is Appa-LATCH-ah. But, if I’m talking about something having the qualities of Appalachia, it’s Appa-LAY-chin.

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Alatariel99@reddit

I differentiate them too but the opposite way 🤣

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marcos_MN@reddit

It’s probably my Minnesota accent haha

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boozypanda0117@reddit

As someone born and raised here- It should be app a latch uh. We hate when you call it app a lasia or whatever. Like physically cringe

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Traditional_Entry183@reddit

What about those of us who grew up in the area always calling it App-Uh-Lay-She-Uh?

Born and raised in WV, went to college in TN (the Smokies), now live on the Eastern side of the mountains in VA.

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bishopyorgensen@reddit

13 states, 25 million or so people, and there's still folk who think the way their meemaw said it is the only correct way and everyone else feels the same way they do

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NomNomChickpeas@reddit

Seriously. Loving the people here saying "I'm from there, it's [this way]". Like...ok are you from NY state or Tennessee? Bc drastically different.

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Fedelm@reddit

My family is from East Tennessee and they've always said Appa-lay-sha. Where in Appalachia is your family from? I think the pronunciation is regional even within Appalachia.

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cnhn@reddit

it didn't. both are "correct" for the mountains which range from canada to alabama,

one is the preferred pronunciation for a specific region in the south which ranges from west virginia to alabama.

there is definitely a trend to only think of the specific region as representative of the whole mountain range.

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OkCardiologist2492@reddit

Appalachian State University alumni here. We pronounce it “latch”.

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AntiRepresentation@reddit

Is this sub just people being confused by the passage of time and its effect on knowledge & language?

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Spuriousantics@reddit

I’m from just outside of Appalachia, and it’s always been “ap-a-latch-a” (“ap” as in “apple”, which I wouldn’t describe as being an “ah” sound; for me, “ah” would be more like how I’d say “arm”).

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rharper38@reddit

I heard it pronounced both ways since I was in college.

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DUDEBREAUX@reddit

You're supposed to keep that name out your motherfucking mouth.

gif

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snarkwithfae@reddit

It’s always been Apple-atcha. :)

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EventHorizonbyGA@reddit

In Georgia there is a city called Viena. The locals call it Vy-enna.

I grew up in Florida in the 80s and Native tribal history was actually taught in elementary school. That means this is from memory. And memory is not always reliable.

The Appalachee were a tribe. And the people called themselves the Ap-puh-lay-shee. I have absolutely failed there but close enough.

So ah-pa-lay-sha is closer to correct IMO.

How that region became Appalachia is because of French cartographer.

English speakers don't realize the phonetic transcription of what would have been an unwritable Native word is a French word and meant to be pronounced differently than the letters English speakers read.

So Appalatch-uh is slowly spreading and taking over.

That's my guess.

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crazycatlady331@reddit

In Kentucky, there's a city called Versailles. It's pronounced Ver-sails.

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Dunnoaboutu@reddit

Did you change where you live in Appalachia? It’s always been said two different ways in my lifetime and I’ve always said it “latch”.

I’ve been to places that say “lay”, but then I’ve heard them talk about the college Appalachian State and they say “latch” when saying the name.

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Neither-Mycologist77@reddit

Yeah, I grew up in the mountains of PA and we always said "lay," but if you're talking about Appalachian State, you say "latch."

Another fun one is to ask a Pittsburgher how to say "Carnegie" vs. how to say "Carnegie Hall." Two totally different pronunciations based on the usage.

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mrperfectsusedtowel@reddit

The neighborhood pronounced differently than the industrialist 100%

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myco_lion@reddit

It has always been "appa latch a" here in Southern Appalachia. That laysha is a northern thing. Both are correct depending on where you are.

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Ralinor@reddit

Cairo Georgia. That’s Kay-Row

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Slim_Margins1999@reddit

There a Cay-ro Illinois too. Or how about Versailles, Kentucky. They pronounce that Ver-sails. Lol

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elphaba00@reddit

Just in Illinois, Cairo, Vienna, Lebanon, New Berlin, and San Jose. I'm sure there's more. I haven't had much caffeine yet.

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Star_Pen80@reddit

We always said it right.

Imagine moving North and being told you said it wrong and a backwards hillbilly.

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Verbull710@reddit

I'm from the left coast and we all called it appalaysha, still here it said that way.

Joined the navy after hs and met a few dudes from there, they all call say it like "Imma throw an apple atcha"

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StevieAM@reddit

Same but I just chalk it up to having more access to information and not knowing that’s how people who live there pronounced it (I’m on the west coast.)

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MutantSquirrel23@reddit

It's been both for as long as I can remember. I've lived the vast majority of my middle-aged life in TN including Knoxville and have spent a LOT of time in the Smokies and even done some trips on the Appalachian trail, and I have heard people call it both my entire life.

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kittibear33@reddit

As someone who moved from Wisconsin to Tennessee, the first one is how everyone outside of Appalachia pronounces it and it’s actually pronounced the second way down here.

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asdfjkl826@reddit

Unless you’re from “Appa-lay-shuh” north of the Mason Dixon line.

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kittibear33@reddit

Ooh, didn’t think of that one. Maybe it’s just northern vs. southern dialect then?

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fatherdoodle@reddit

The only time I’ve heard it as “app a lay sha” is from people not from here. Everyone I know says “app a latch a”

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hypnofedX@reddit

This thread is the first time I've heard it called anything other than the Appalachians (ah-pa-lay-chins). I've lived in several parts of the eastern US.

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jelloslug@reddit

It was only the first what for anyone that never lived there. I grew up there and it always been the second way.

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Unit-235@reddit

It didn’t change. You were just used to hearing it incorrectly. People around here still pronounce it wrong.

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probablyatargaryen@reddit

A friend from there once taught me this way: Her- Duck! Me- Why? Her- That guy threw an apple atcha! She said she successfully taught everyone this way lol

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lawnlemon@reddit

I can't remember where I heard it but similar -- "If you say AppLAYcha I'll throw an Apple atcha"

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BritOnTheRocks@reddit

I heard a “storyteller” in Wintergreen explain it the exact same way.

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CalamityClambake@reddit

It didn't change. Those are different regional accents. The people from there say "ah pa latch a" so that's what I consider to be correct, even though everyone from where I live says "a pa lay sha."

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arcxjo@reddit

The people from there say "ah pa latch a"

No, we most certainly don't.

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bishopyorgensen@reddit

This is such a weird comment to down vote because it shows how many outsiders are in here talking about Appalachia. There's "Southern Appalachia" from West Virginia and Maryland down through Kentucky, the Carolinas, and Georgia. WHERE I LIVE it's mostly Latch but up North from WV to PA to New York and New England my understanding (I could be wrong*) it's Lay

Bunch of dorks heard "erm aktchually it's Latch" and decided 1) this multi state region is a monolith and 2) they know what that monolith sounds like because a woman on TikTok told them so

asterisk because, unlike you common BO redditor, I don't pretend to know what every person in Vermont or upstate New York talks like

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CalamityClambake@reddit

You don't? Ok. Well. I guess you say it both ways depending on where in Appalachia you are from?

Idk, I have a friend from Appalachia who definitely says a pah latch a.

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ParadoxInsideK@reddit

I’m from Southwest Virginia and everyone around here says it the way you put.

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Accomplished-Key-408@reddit

To be fair, Oregonians can't be trusted. They pronounce Couch as Cooch

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bishopyorgensen@reddit

I think you were around some upcountry degens if they said a thing like that

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chinchillaenchilada@reddit

Also from Oregon (OR-ih-ghin) and know a person isn’t from the West Coast when I hear or-eh-GON.

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DrMcJedi@reddit

Weirdly, there is a city in Wisconsin called Oregon - and it is pronounced Oh-reh-gone. We also have a city called New Berlin…(pronounced Burl-in).

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christhomasburns@reddit

It's or-u-gun. Noone from here says it like you spelled it

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CalamityClambake@reddit

I'm from Lake Oswego, but ok.

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BehavioralSink@reddit

Oh, that explains it, you’ve got the “rich folk” pronunciation.

(Big /S on that joke. Lake Oswego obviously gets a ton of flak lately what with the fight over lake access to the general public, not that you personally have any involvement one way or the other.)

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CalamityClambake@reddit

Lol. I lived there years ago. My parents were not rich.

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Pheeline@reddit

Said it with "latch" all my life, as someone born and raised in NC and who went to college in the mountains where our team was regularly beaten by App, lol.

Hearing "Appa-lay-sha" is still weird to me, it's how it gets pronounced where I live now (eastern Ontario) as well.

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dickonajunebug@reddit

I’m from Florida and moved to VA. It’s always been appa-latcha. You from out west?

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fns1981@reddit

I, along with many other Michigan football fans, learned the correct pronunciation on the 1st of September, 2007.

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YogurtclosetDull2380@reddit

Lol I just correlated it to the 2011 Meetup between them and the Gophers. ESPN had a whole segment on them and they really hammered down that pronunciation.

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YogurtclosetDull2380@reddit

December 6 2011, when the Minnesota Golden Gophers played the Mountaineers of Appalachian State.

I remember vividly that the whole world suddenly took the long Ā sound out of Appalachia and to say it the old way was almost like a slur.

This ain't even a joke

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Willing_Actuary_4198@reddit

Being from North Carolina it's always been the second one

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fondofbooks@reddit

I said it the first way once or twice after moving to NC 17 years ago. I was kindly correctly and have said it the second way ever since.

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Ralliman320@reddit

Yeah, we're pretty quick to correct that one, along with Concord (CON-CORD, not CONK-erd).

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Purple_Wave_314@reddit

My mom from NJ still has to get corrected sometimes, and she’s been here as long as I have lol.

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Vermotter@reddit

Not in my neck of the woods lol

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-DementedAvenger-@reddit

Moving to NC17 might not be child appropriate.

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fondofbooks@reddit

true! I should have written out seventeen. Lol

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Purple_Wave_314@reddit

Same. Been here since 1983, and it’s the only way I’ve said it. I’ve corrected many outsiders who say it wrong.

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sunshineparadox_@reddit

Confirmed. I don’t like in the mountains, but a ton of my friends went to App. I’m from the Triangle (us, the Triad, and Charlotte being the “parking lot” of the state if you will).

I stopped going to visit after I laughed at a fog warning light I shoulda taken seriously, though.

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Accomplished-Key-408@reddit

It's always been App a LATCH a. You've just been saying ut wrong.

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Neither-Mycologist77@reddit

This is one of my pet peeve conversations, so warning for ridiculous rant ahead.

It is a regional difference in pronunciation, just as accents change as you go north and south along the Appalachian range. The Appalachian Trail stretches from Georgia to Maine for a reason. The folks in the southern portion of the range say "apple-atcha" and those of us in the northern areas (mostly) say "apple-A-shuh."

My family has lived in these mountains since before the American Revolution. The culture is different here than it is in North Carolina, etc., but I get grumpy when people try to claim that I don't have a right to pronounce the name of my home the way my ancestors have for hundreds of years just because people states away from us say it differently.

I do understand that historically the northern areas have been more privileged and that my southern neighbors are probably (justifiably) testy about that, in turn. Let us celebrate the glorious diversity of our shared, beautiful, ancient mountain range and how to pronounce it in peace with mutual respect and admiration.

/End rant :)

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bubba0077@reddit

It has always been pronounced both ways, depending on where you grew up. Where I lived in NJ, it watch latch.

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ninetysevencents@reddit

Hot take: Exonyms are fine. Every culture uses them. Move along.

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illini02@reddit

I'll tell you for me.

I'm a college football fan. Applachia State beat Michigan. And it was a big news story. And everyone made sure to say Ah pa latch a. And so that is when I realized it.

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view-from-the-edge@reddit

We were just all saying it wrong and didn't know it. I don't know who to be mad at, everyone that taught me to say LAY or people from the area that just can't conform to the rest of the country, lol.

But seriously, I get it. I'm from Boise. BOY-see, not BOY-zee. Everyone in Idaho and Northern Utah knows it's a soft 's' sound yet I have been corrected here in Texas for saying it 'wrong'!

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Smartal3ck@reddit

Since when did Chile (“Chilly”) become “Chill-ay”?

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throwitlikethewind@reddit

I've always known it to be pronounced as chee-lay.

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Queen-Butterfly@reddit

It was Chile when the Spanish named it that

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Smartal3ck@reddit

I recall the first time I heard it pronounced “Chill-ay” was in 2018 or so. Maybe different regions pronounce it differently. Either way there was a definite shift in prnounciation.

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MotherofaPickle@reddit

After someone I knew went there for over a month and called it Chee-lay, that’s when I started using the proper pronunciation.

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Smartal3ck@reddit

“Yes, the pronunciation of "Chile" has changed over time, especially in English, and varies across different languages and dialects today. Historically, English speakers may have pronounced it similarly to the spice "chili," but many now pronounce it closer to the Spanish "che-lee" for the country and its people. Within Spanish, the pronunciation of the "ch" sound also varies by social class and region. In English Traditional: The country and the fruit were once pronounced similarly in English, with the "ch" sounding like in "chilly" (e.g., "CHILL-ee"). Modern: A more common and often preferred pronunciation for the country is closer to the Spanish, using "che-lee" (CHEE-leh). The pronunciation of the fruit remains the same (chili) in American English, or as the more British "chilli". Regional variation: Some American English speakers still say "CHILL-ay," a variation more common in some regions or dialects. “

Lmao, caught you gaslighting.

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Messijoes18@reddit

K but while we are doing this can we settle on Caribbean vs Caribbean?

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MTW3ESQ@reddit

I think it's very much a regional thing, and there's no singular pronunciation, if we're going to say that the folks living there get to determine how it's pronounced. I think Lay is more Northern and Latch is more Southern (by Mason-Dixon).

The other fun question is the Appalachian Region versus the Appalachian Mountains which I believe aren't a perfect overlap.

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asdfjkl826@reddit

This is it. 100% it. North of the Mason Dixon line it’s Appa-lay-shuh. South of the Mason Dixon line it’s Appuh-LATCH-uh. I think the National attention from Helene on “Appuh-LATCH-uh” has caused people who know only the one pronunciation much confusion.

Signed, Western North Carolinian born in Massachusetts

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Aggressive_Quail1087@reddit

I have lived in this area my whole life and pronounce ap-puh-latch-a. Honestly, it's how we know someone isn't from here. 🤣

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elquatrogrande@reddit

Fallout 76 got me pronouncing it correctly, not that it was a word I used more than once a year before that.

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StatementLazy1797@reddit

I knew I’d find this somewhere! Anyone I know who pronounces it correctly played (or still plays) Fallout 76.

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purpleteenageghost@reddit

The internet allowed everyone to hear how the natives actually say it

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toomuchtv987@reddit

This is the answer.

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toomuchtv987@reddit

I’m from Middle TN and it’s always been app-a-latch-a.

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tea7777@reddit

A pa latch a is how we pronounce it on my end of Appalachia.

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BossDjGamer@reddit

It is extremely large and is pronounced differently in different areas just like any word

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Vermotter@reddit

This is what's confusing in this thread. The Appalachian Mountains goes from, what, Georgia to New England up to Canada. Do people not understand regional dialects?

In my area, we pronounce them the Appa-lay-she-an Mountains, which are the mountains we live in. Both are correct and valid pronunciations.

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Careless_Ad_9665@reddit

I’m from Appalachia and we always have said it that way. When I was little I was taught to be suspicious of ppl who didn’t pronounce it that way. Maybe other areas of the mountains say it differently? I’m In east TN. I will always say Appa latch uh. We won’t correct you but we will keep our eye on you.

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BullCityCoordinators@reddit

It's always been the latter. Been here my whole life.

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westgazer@reddit

It never changed, people pronounce things differently.

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tan_clutch@reddit

so reading this thread: if you're from WV you say apalaysha, but if you're from elsewhere in the Appalachians it's appalatcha? and somehow the non-WV people have led a campaign to get the rest of us to say it their way?

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Fedelm@reddit

East Tennessee also says it "lay-sha."

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ItsDarwinMan82@reddit

Same here, OP. I pronounced it the same way as you did. But, I’m also from Boston. We pronounce Oregon - Ore -ah- gone. So who knows if I knew what was right.

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aagusgus@reddit

How about cauliflower?

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Ride_Eternal@reddit

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1skPcE-tm7s

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luxtabula@reddit

i grew up saying the first pronunciation until I learned I was pronouncing it wrong. the second pronunciation is correct.

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Coakis@reddit

The locals, including me have always pronounced it the latter way.

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Bakelite51@reddit

My Silent Gen grandfather always pronounced it "ah-pa-latch-a". He lived in Appalachia for thirty to forty years.

I don't think this is a recent phenomenon.

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Joeva8me@reddit

In Memphis we all called it Appalaysha and we didn’t interact with a lot of hillbillies. Now I call it the spot where my family goes to have “meetings.” Jokes. I have family across TN and learned when I went to UT how it was supposed to be pronounced and the correct pronunciation is how I say it. I think it was a regional thing that isn’t as much of a think anymore. I think it could be related to the success of the foozball team Appalachian state. I just don’t think the mispronunciation is as common as it once was.

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NoVaVol@reddit

I’m from the hills of East TN.

I’ve heard both from locals and no one really cares.

“Lay” tends to be from more uppity folks, but it’s fine either way.

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mdmommy99@reddit

Not trying to necessarily disagree but does the fact that someone lives somewhere not mean that they could still be saying it wrong? Being from Baltimore, some natives pronounce it Bawlmer and some say Bal-da-more and both are wrong. I always get accused of not being native for saying it “right.”

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Cloud_Disconnected@reddit

Los Angeles used to have a hard "g" and a long "e" at the end. The Anglicized pronunciation of Hiroshima has changed twice just in my lifetime. You're going to get a bunch of replies that say App-uh-latch-uh was always the "correct" pronunciation, but pronunciations go in and out of fashion, it's just how it works.

If you really want to pull your hair out, go listen to NPR for an hour. I swear they change pronunciations of names weekly.

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