Does your airline require you to write a report if you go around?
Posted by Recent-Ad-2443@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 54 comments
I'm curious to see what the prevailing attitude among airlines and regional operators might be in the present day when it comes to pilots writing reports after go arounds. I've recently taken a captain's position at a small regional operator that requires an SMS report for every go around where the operator I was working with prior to this required no report at all. The philosophy behind the previous operator's policy was simply that they didn't want even a few minutes of paperwork to factor in a pilot's decision to go around and that if an abnormal safety concern were the cause then a pilot had the option to file a report, but it was not a requirement because the primary consideration was simply that there should be no possible reason the pilot might hesitate to execute the maneuver in the moment.
After reading of a major American airline's policy being simple “No pride, no pressure, no hesitation, no explanations, no fault”, I was made to wonder about a recent go around I had to make for a routine reason. With ragged ceilings and conditions at the field improving marginally, me and the other pilot executed a routine go around without really thinking about it much. We knew a second attempt was possible and offered a high chance of being able to make it in so it wasn't really a big deal and in worse conditions it wouldn't have been a big deal either. Neither of us felt any cause to hesitate...until I said it.
"Oh damn...we're going to have to file an SMS report."
Both of us felt an immediate weight of annoyance as I poisoned the comms with my own irritation. Even though we knew we weren't going to be faulted for this routine procedure, it was going to be more than just a quick call to dispatch at the end of a long day. The log book would have to be finalized, the trip report would have to be finalized, our time cards would have to be updated, lineindoc training debrief was to be done and then on top of all that, an SMS report for a completely routine and inconsequential bit of flying about as abnormal as finding ice in Alaska.
I cannot claim that I feel I will certainly be discouraged from going around by this policy but I also cannot claim that I am certain I may never find the circumstances that are the exception either. Maybe when I've been flying for several hours doing multiple legs and working in bad weather; just maybe I'll hit minimums and think to myself "just another 30 feet and I won't have to write a stupid report". Am I saying I'm lazy? No. I'm just saying that I'm human, I'm flawed and I know that we all have moments of weakness over what seems minor and annoying in the moment and that there's a good logical philosophy behind policies at some operators that require not even a phone call from pilots that choose this most standard and mundane maneuvers of safe flight.
What say you folks? Am I being a twit or not? What do policies at your operator say and what do you think about the policy in how it might factor in your decision to go around?
Air320@reddit
In my airline No safety reports required unless the go around was executed below minimums.
R5Jockey@reddit
Isn’t that the definition of a go around? Otherwise it’s a missed approach.
Air320@reddit
Honestly wasn't aware there was a difference. I've always used it interchangeably.
Mike93747743@reddit
After everything is resolved, they would like a quick conversation with the dispatcher to make sure nothing was missed. No big deal really.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
My current airline does, for statistical gathering. It takes around 30 seconds to write a report saying "went around due unstable/ATC/whatever".
cctdad@reddit
Retired unstable ATC here. Go around.
subarupilot@reddit
My old airline used to. Discovered it was a bad idea and then stopped
Right-Suggestion-667@reddit
Not required depending on the situation might be. When in doubt fill it out if you feel like you need to
AIRdomination@reddit
Nope.
latedescent@reddit
No fault go around policy
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
Us also, and I never say why to atc if we dicked something up. ( training newhires) FOQUA will explain that to the company. If atc asks why we went around I just say, we didn't land!
latedescent@reddit
There’s nothing wrong with telling them, they’re required to document a reason. I’ve just replied with “unstable” or similar before and never heard more.
FrankCobretti@reddit
We don’t have to, but it can be useful if you do. If an ASAP team spots a trend of, say, pilots getting slam-dunked, then going around when they can’t meet stable approach criteria at a certain airport, the airline can use that data to initiate a conversation with ATC.
Ok-Selection4206@reddit
CVG!!!
Recent-Ad-2443@reddit (OP)
For sure. I can see the point of data collection but even in those cases where the cause was entirely routine like flying to minimums, that could be covered by a quick call to dispatch telling them we went around. Seems like having a highly simplified go around form for dispatch or the pilots to fill out would beat an SMS report and only if it's obviously abnormal.
fighterace00@reddit
It's almost like a go around isn't a safety item and SMS isn't the proper forum
FrankCobretti@reddit
Sounds reasonable.
sirduckbert@reddit
Yeah there’s a dozen reasons to do a go around, and if it’s because of poor ATC sequencing, crew being unprepared, or something else that there is to look into or learn from then it should be shared. But if you just don’t see at minimums then 🤷🏼♂️ that’s why the procedure exists
TobyADev@reddit
I’m not commercial but I’ve heard of having to report go arounds and how that actually reduces safety overall… everyone dreads safety reports
But I think what you’ve said is fair. It’s far better to go around than to not
DeadlyPixels@reddit
Yes unfortunately - every go around required a brief SMS report. The company encouraged a good culture around go arounds but it is still a pain to have one more document to fill out. Thankfully it was pretty quick to do and more just something for a data point.
We had an issue in a similar vein around birdstrike and birdstrike risk reporting in that even a near miss was supposed to be a mandatory report that took a while to complete. Doing 4-6 sectors daily on a turboprop operation with 25 minute turnarounds you can guess what happened. Literally no one would file for anything other than an actual strike (which of course also needs a engineering writeup and inspection) because of how onerous the paperwork was
Weasel474@reddit
Nope. They encourage us to file reports for everything that happens, no matter how minor, but that's just to get more data points.
SomeCessnaDriver@reddit
If we do a go-around I have to answer "yes" to a question on the flight close-out. I think it counts as another cycle on the engines for MX purposes or something. That's about it.
Our training is that a go-around is the expected outcome. We're always told we don't do enough go-arounds, and the ones we do aren't always done well.
Working_Football1586@reddit
We just put a number in a box for the number of go around when the times get submitted. They send us weekly emails encouraging us to go around.
Ornery-Ad-2248@reddit
Negative
VolubleWanderer@reddit
Not that it’s still around but Air Wisconsin required a report for a go around.
biggusfootusnz@reddit
Yes, but it's more for a tracking thing of "why" rather that "fuck you shit pilot"
Loose-cannon1954@reddit
My (non-US) carrier requires a phone call to ops and a brief report via an app. The F/O gets awarded the written chore. The airline would rather have a thousand missed approaches than one unstable one taken to the runway.
Brave_Course3496@reddit
Don’t ask don’t tell.
NotABidoof@reddit
What country is this?
Call dispatch? Finalize logbook? Trip report? Time cards? Lineindoc? That’s a lot of crap to do at the end of a flight.
I’ve never heard of any of that stuff being done at any US airline. All we do at my regional is close out the flight on the EFB. It does ask if we used go around thrust for engine health tracking purposes but that’s it.
jettech737@reddit
Sounds like they might do everything old school paperwork style. I saw a Air India pilot vlog his post flight stuff and at the end he has to drop that packet in a drop box at his home airport before going home.
Chemtrailcreator@reddit
Only if it’s driven by actual or aircraft alerted windshear.
someFAsarecrazy@reddit
Nope, not at any of the 3 places I’ve worked at.
More likely to be writing a report if you don’t go around.
vanillanuttapped@reddit
Is this a US operator?
I've been doing this for 20+ years and I thought it had been largely eliminated as a practice by the time I started.
Recent-Ad-2443@reddit (OP)
Not a US operator.
vanillanuttapped@reddit
Sorry to hear it. Needless to say, don't let it stop you from going around. Paperwork is quick; dead is forever. Hopefully they rethink the policy.
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
Depends on why. If we go around bc we got way too low because of our own mistakes, setting off the EGPWS in IMC, abso-fucking-lutely we need to report it.
If ATC clear another plane onto the runway when we’ve already been cleared to land and lack the separation - absolutely because that’s totally non standard here in Europe.
Anything minor - it’s not required, but recommended for data reasons. But that’s one reason why they pay us brakes on +.5
It
Recent-Ad-2443@reddit (OP)
They're quite terrible. Lots of required fields that are not useful for a go around report unless it's due to something actually abnormal like a flaming shopping cart on the runway or some such thing. Just a silly pain for a data collection point that could be done with a much more simplified form if it needs to be done at all.
Reasonable_Blood6959@reddit
Yeah see thats what I though.
I lost my medical for a bit and spent about 6 months in the office. Where I oversaw a complete revamp of reporting forms, for us, and for cabin crew.
I worked with the tech team to put the form on the iPad rather than the crew room computer. And removed literally every single required field other than flight number, a basic title, and date and time (and that even they auto filled if you were connected to wifi/data).
Also revamped ground issue reporting forms (bc ours over here aren’t in company, they’re outsourced to 3rd parties), and cabin crew safety/catering issue forms.
As with everything, nobody who designs these forms actually flies 6 sector 12 hour duty days 5 days in a row, so they don’t actually think about it and how irritating they are to fill in.
So I completely get if the form is overcomplicated/far too long, that’s definitely an issue.
Alone_Elderberry_101@reddit
Not required at my major.
SubarcticFarmer@reddit
Our only go around related report requirement is not going around when you should have (stable approach, late configuration etc).
Matuteg@reddit
Yeah.. no reports of go around. Actually only one… an engine document where you put you did GA thrust for tracking purposes on the life of the engine. That’s about it
bustervich@reddit
Regional I worked for required a quick ACARS report for the GA thrust. Now the plane’s own health monitoring software logs everything. Either way the only thing that requires an SMS write up is if you didn’t go around when you should have.
usmcmech@reddit
Unless there is something else going on with that flight no one will say a thing
Recent-Ad-2443@reddit (OP)
Naturally I don't think anyone will be saying anything but "good job" for going around. That's not the concern; it's more about having to file a useless report discouraging the practice on some occasions.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
No, it’s encouraged. You’ll be in more trouble for not going around
junebug172@reddit
100%. Gate keeper called is day after we did a GA to tell us “thanks for doing a GA”. Could have cared less as to the why.
VileInventor@reddit
they don’t let you land until you’re min fuel
Rev-777@reddit
This is the answer. The industry has completely changed in the past decade on their view of the go-around.
RaiseTheDed@reddit
Not required, but recommended at my company.
Ludicrous_speed77@reddit
Most serious US carriers would laugh at the term "no-fault go around". That's like saying "no-fault doing your job".
phalanxo@reddit
Not required at my legacy airline.
trying_to_adult_here@reddit
Nope at my current airline. I checked. And we've got reports for everything from catering issues to passenger disturbances to dispatch filing you through turbulence.
I couldn't say for sure at my previous airline (I don't have access to the manuals anymore, and I'm dispatch so I didn't have to write go-around reports) but they had a safety newsletter where they used FOQA to publish the number of unstable approaches vs the number of go-arounds. There were always more unstable approaches than go-arounds and they were always encouraging go-arounds when warranted.
dcl415@reddit
Yes,in the airline I work for all go-arounds must be reported by one of the pilots. Nothing elaborate, just a quick sms with the case
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I'm curious to see what the prevailing attitude among airlines and regional operators might be in the present day when it comes to pilots writing reports after go arounds. I've recently taken a captain's position at a small regional operator that requires an SMS report for every go around where the operator I was working with prior to this required no report at all. The philosophy behind the previous operator's policy was simply that they didn't want even a few minutes of paperwork to factor in a pilot's decision to go around and that if an abnormal safety concern were the cause then a pilot had the option to file a report, but it was not a requirement because the primary consideration was simply that there should be no possible reason the pilot might hesitate to execute the maneuver in the moment.
After reading of a major American airline's policy being simple “No pride, no pressure, no hesitation, no explanations, no fault”, I was made to wonder about a recent go around I had to make for a routine reason. With ragged ceilings and conditions at the field improving marginally, me and the other pilot executed a routine go around without really thinking about it much. We knew a second attempt was possible and offered a high chance of being able to make it in so it wasn't really a big deal and in worse conditions it wouldn't have been a big deal either. Neither of us felt any cause to hesitate...until I said it.
"Oh damn...we're going to have to file an SMS report."
Both of us felt an immediate weight of annoyance as I poisoned the comms with my own irritation. Even though we knew we weren't going to be faulted for this routine procedure, it was going to be more than just a quick call to dispatch at the end of a long day. The log book would have to be finalized, the trip report would have to be finalized, our time cards would have to be updated, lineindoc training debrief was to be done and then on top of all that, an SMS report for a completely routine and inconsequential bit of flying about as abnormal as finding ice in Alaska.
I cannot claim that I feel I will certainly be discouraged from going around by this policy but I also cannot claim that I am certain I may never find the circumstances that are the exception either. Maybe when I've been flying for several hours doing multiple legs and working in bad weather; just maybe I'll hit minimums and think to myself "just another 30 feet and I won't have to write a stupid report". Am I saying I'm lazy? No. I'm just saying that I'm human, I'm flawed and I know that we all have moments of weakness over what seems minor and annoying in the moment and that there's a good logical philosophy behind policies at some operators that require not even a phone call from pilots that choose this most standard and mundane maneuvers of safe flight.
What say you folks? Am I being a twit or not? What do policies at your operator say and what do you think about the policy in how it might factor in your decision to go around?
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