About to finish my PPL without any actual solo experience
Posted by Thick-Koala7861@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 61 comments
My school decided that I should do my solo flights with an instructor on board, called it "supervised solo". Now that I'm almost about to finish the requirements I don't feel confident to actually rent and fly solo. And this is starting to make me anxious that Im going to stop flying after finishing up and just let my license to rot there.
I wonder if anyone had similar experience or advice?
Creative-Grocery2581@reddit
I don’t know if that will count. Double check ACS
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
OP is in Europe.
Brick85@reddit
I heard that in EASA it could be possible if allowed by local CAA. But there should be a reason for it. But I do not believe that it can be for all flights... So contact your CAA and ask them. If it is not allowed - there should be a lot of noice after this... But it is better, than take license with fake records.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
It’s only possible, if the local CAA is turning a blind eye and doesn’t properly oversee the activities of their flight schools. Solo time definition is crystal clear under Part-FCL.
Imperial_Citizen_00@reddit
I am curious what the justification for something like that would even be? I am not saying your a bad student or pilot, lol, I am just curious why they would feel like sending someone else up with you
However, that's not a SOLO, lol, and to be honest, up until passing my Check Ride, flying solo was the absolute best feeling I had while training...finally on my own, no one looking over my shoulder, my fate in my own hands, just me and my thoughts on this amazing flight
I don't see how that's legal, in ANY part of the world...
Thick-Koala7861@reddit (OP)
I had a check ride with another more senior instructor to assess me, he said I can continue with safety pilot only and stayed on board to fill in my first "solo flight" hour. On the next day, my own FI did 2 T/G with me and then said I can continue on my own, I dropped him off and taxied back to RWY holding point to do pre takeoff checklists. I was ready to depart only to hear on radio that I am not allowed, then my FI asked me to taxi back again. He looked pissed off and sorry at the same time that he thought by supervised solo they meant I just needed to be rechecked (he started working at this school somewhat recently - around the same time I joined).
It was a huge disappointing moment for me, I just ended up accepting and moving on until recently I realized I might never get confident enough to do it on my own - hence started questioning the practice.
SirEDCaLot@reddit
Your school is fucking you over.
Flying solo isn't just about manipulating flight controls. It's about attitude, mindset, confidence. The first time you solo is always nerve wracking. But it's VITAL- there comes a moment when you are turning final and you look over to see if your instructor approves of how you're lined up and then it hits you that this is on you, YOU are the only one who can get yourself back to the ground safely, YOU are the Pilot In Command.
That experience is simply not possible with someone else in the plane. Doesn't matter if they don't say one thing the entire flight. You still know they are there and can/will intervene.
I suggest when it comes time for your checkride, make sure your examiner knows you have literally never been solo in an aircraft. Tell them that you have logged solo time because the flight school ordered you to, but every hour of 'solo' time has been with an instructor. Ask the examiner if that is correct or proper.
With any luck they will raise holy hell.
If they don't- just go kick ass and pass the checkride, then move to another flight school, tell them what happened, and ask them to actually teach you how to be a Pilot In Command.
Imperial_Citizen_00@reddit
THIS was exactly what was racing through my mind as I hit the throttle and the wheels left the ground for the first time “Oh fuck, I’ve gotta land this thing alone now…”
Thick-Koala7861@reddit (OP)
I don't think the check pilot will care considering he was the one on board during my first "solo" whom also signed my logbook =) I don't know how that works but the chief instructors at the school are also CAA check pilots lol.
Yeah I'm considering your second approach, will contact another school to see if they can do supplemental training.
SirEDCaLot@reddit
Well then you have a system that's rotten to the core.
What I'd do is keep your head down and get your certificate done. Then leave that place and never go back. Write to some higher up people in your equivalent of FAA and point out that this place is churning out 'pilots' who haven't even truly soloed and you feel this is a safety risk. Find another flight school and do some real training.
__joel_t@reddit
Are you in the US? If so, that's not legal, for precisely that reason.
If not the US, where are you located?
Thick-Koala7861@reddit (OP)
located in EASA region. I did checked rules regarding that, turns out it's kind of a grey area here
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
It’s not a grey area at all. In fact, it’s very black and white.
ltcterry@reddit
Is that an EASA quote for FAA?
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
EASA Part-FCL.010 Definitions.
ltcterry@reddit
Sounds like OP is not practical test ready. Doesn't sound like a gray area at all, does it?
Thick-Koala7861@reddit (OP)
Now that I see it (pdf for reference), sounds like fkd up..
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
This is the latest version of the regulation. For some reason Google searche brings up old and draft documents on top instead of the latest one.
ddom737@reddit
The best way to ensure an current reference document is to use the relevant agency resources. For example the US Federal Air Regulations are all in Title 14 of the US Code. They can all be found at: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14. You will see on this link that ALL of the FAA parts (1 thru 199) are in Chapter 1. Follw links as required to get to the regulation of interest. Note that there will be no updates for any of this information until the shutdown is over.
The second hint (as you point out) is don’t rely on Google!
CenterYourHDG_bug@reddit
Make sure those flights with a CFI on board are not logged as solo in your logbook
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
It doesn’t.
The Head of Training, Chief Flight Instructor will be attempting to mislead their licening authority when they issue the course completion certificate prior to the PPL skill test, as OP would have most certainly not have met the required criteria for the issue of PPL.
OP, you need to get this sorted out with your school, and if not, with the authority that your school is registered under. Supervised solo means that the instructor is supervising you from a … suitable location, typically on the ground, or from another aircraft (e.g. if flying with another student).
Thick-Koala7861@reddit (OP)
Thank you for the advice!
Azucarillo@reddit
Hello, a school in spain got severely reprimanded with suspension of ATO exactly because of that (solos not being solos)
It's illegal ñ and you should protest: they are a school and should assume the responsibility of a student fucking up a plane. After all, is they taught you... They should feel confident, don't they?
AltitudeEdge@reddit
I only know the regs for the FAA, but in the US they allow “supervised solo” with an instructor on board to meet the solo requirements of the commercial multiengine rating. Those solo requirements are only required when doing your multiengine as the initial commercial, and only because there are no insurance companies in the country that would allow solo flight in a multiengine airplane from someone not multiengine rated. For that specific rating, and that specific rating only, they allow that “supervised solo” time to count toward the solo XC requirements. Even then you are not logging solo time, you are applying the “supervised solo” towards the requirements. If they are taking that exemption and applying it to PPL in a single engine airplane, that is very much not legal.
Clunk500CM@reddit
>"My school decided that I should do my solo flights with an instructor on board, called it "supervised solo"
I'm no CFI, but this doesn't sound right; especially if you are paying for these people to sit next to you.
dr_b_chungus@reddit
At every UK school I asked, you still pay an instructor rate for solo flights, I’d guess because you are operating under their licence and your fuck ups are still their responsibility.
Still I’d rather pay an instructor rate and build my SP solo time than pay a solo rate and never actually solo! If OP has logged that time as solo then it seriously needs sorting, it isn’t true!
I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS@reddit
You pay the instructor rate because the instructor has to stay in the Ops room and monitor your flight, so you're still taking up an instructor's time. Once you get your licence, solo rental is generally cheaper.
dr_b_chungus@reddit
Is this a legal requirement?
jedensuscg@reddit
My school, in the US, I pay my CFI for my solos because he is supervising me,l from the ground. He stays at the facility monitoring me on foreflight/whatever ADS-B viewer he uses, monitors all my radio calls either with a handheld if I'm nearby or LiveATC if cross country and is standing by his phone in case I need to call him with help or questions. He's not allowed to leave the hangar/office with a student flying solo.
Ok_Stable_9137@reddit
Not legal, get away from this school as fast as possible!!
I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS@reddit
Change schools, now. It sounds like your school is misleading the authority when they certify your solo hours on your licence application.
Consider also blowing the whistle on this to your national authority. If you don't, it's only a matter of time before someone else does and there's a chance that your solo time will be ruled invalid.
suuntasade@reddit
Easa.. which country? i have my guesses but I don't want to jump to any conclusion. Also this is illegal for what is happening to you.
OddWestern4104@reddit
And what is your guess? Curious about it. You can reply in DM if you want.
suuntasade@reddit
somwehere in eastern parts of EU, Poland comes to my mind.
OddWestern4104@reddit
Ok, I've only spoken with western European side...
wishlifewassimple@reddit
Is there a medical reason you can't fly alone? Or do they not feel you have the skills to fly solo yet? Feels like there's a piece of the puzzle missing here...
As others have said, a supervised solo means the instructor watches you from the tower, or circuitside, not in the plane with you.
Thick-Koala7861@reddit (OP)
I explained it as a reply to another comment here: https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/1o52s8w/comment/nj6r57s/
TobyADev@reddit
I’d be getting your money back on the basis of not knowing the requirements as a student (and realistically not being expected to imo)
One of the very few times I’d support whistleblowing this if they refuse to sort it out
jedensuscg@reddit
Solo, as in all by yourself solo, is where I built all my confidence. Just finished up my last bit of solo requirements in a XC today.
Every single solo experience I had, ended up doing something I never did with an instructor. While some things it's good to experience with an instructor, you will run into things when flying after getting that license that you never experienced before, unless you plan to fly the same airport(s) forever. Doing this during training when you don't have a CFI onboard giving guidance tests how well you can apply what you learned to different scenarios.
I've landed on runways I never trained on, one of which even my CFI never landed on, had to deal with ATC forgetting about me so I had to make sure I didn't bust the Bravo without clearance when I was 4 miles away and realized they were not going to switc. me to approach without me asking (despite being on flight following specifically going to the Bravo airport), dealt with clearances that I never even heard before let alone flew, taxied on parts of the massive class B airport I've never seen with my CFI on board, etc. all these things I had only myself and my training. Even with an instructor "just sitting there", he will still probably jump in and say something like "we have never done this, so let me help".
As others have seen, you NEED that solo time. It's not about get better at flying (though use it to its advantage and work on improving), it's 90% about building confidence in your decision making.
PopeInnocentXIV@reddit
When I did supervised solos, that meant I was in the airplane by myself while my instructor observed from the ground.
falcopilot@reddit
The best part about actually soloing is proving to yourself that you can do it.
The other best part is getting the instructor out of your space and letting you do what you're going to do, mistakes and all.
Also, find me a trainer that doesn't fly different without 170 pounds / 75kg of ballast in the other seat.
63falcondriver@reddit
Solo flight means you're the only occupant of the aircraft. I'm astounded that your flight school would think that having someone else on board was acceptable. Hate to be the bringer of bad news but it appears you have zero solo time and thus do not qualify for certification.
Thick-Koala7861@reddit (OP)
Yeah kind of realized that the school might not be the good choice a bit late. I don't think license issuance is going to be an issue as i know others who got their licenses under similar conditions. It just sucks to not have the real experience
shadowalker125@reddit
It can bite you in the ass and have your license revoked if the FAA investigates and finds it wrong. Get the solo time even if your school doesn’t want it.
__joel_t@reddit
OP lives under EASA regulation, not FAA.
shadowalker125@reddit
You know, I saw the EASA comments and still wrote FAA. Talk about confirmation bias.
__joel_t@reddit
Crazy how strong confirmation bias is, right?
Great that you recognize and admit it -- hope I can be as open as you are the next time I get blinded by it!
mkosmo@reddit
Same risks and possible outcomes.
ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit
This is a thing though in the us and if also assume in Europe where the op is located. Depending on the training outfit at us part 141 their loa’s do allow for these “supervised” solos. I don’t agree with them and think it doesn’t create good pilots but technically it’s legal. I’d think an integrated ATPL in Europe would have a similar exemption
__joel_t@reddit
14 CFR Appendix-B-to-Part-141 5.(a) seems pretty clear that 5 solo hours are required, and I don't see anything about a non-solo allowance.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Integrated ATPL provides some for some SPIC time, but still requires at least 15 hours of actual solo time. Also given the fact that OP is talking about PPL, doesn’t sound like they are doing an integrated course, which typically doesn’t result in a PPL issued at any time, as you go straight to CPL.
63falcondriver@reddit
I didn't realize the poster wasn't in the USA. So I have no idea of what their certification requirements are.
Ok_Witness179@reddit
That's not possible
That's not a thing. Not for PPL students, anyway. You should ask for a refund on those lessons.
If you show up with no actual solo time, you will have a very, very short checkride. The regulations are pretty clear on this requirement.
Manifestgtr@reddit
Are you paying these instructors for this “supervised solo”? If so, you should be pissed…if not, they should be pissed (are they logging time, etc. while “supervising a solo”?) From a practical standpoint, all you’d need to do is just get some solo circuits in and start building up your confidence that way. That’s what everyone else did/does anyway. I do understand where you’re coming from though. Who wants to get all the way through flight school, go solo for the first time without any instructor limits, completely self-imposed minimums, only to find out that you totally freak when you’re alone (which is unlikely, to be honest…but obviously not unheard of). I dunno, man…this seems like something to discuss with the higher ups and find out what’s happening. I would’ve frankly been a bit insulted if I’d felt like my school didn’t have enough confidence in my ability to let me take one of the airplanes solo during primary. That’s an across-the-board standard for a very good reason.
MrVons@reddit
You can rent a plane for a few hours and book an instructor for 30 min. Go pre flight and then prior to the flight, speak to the instructor about the weather and everything … like winds and what you plan to do during be flight..then take the plane and solo and bring the plane back by the end of your time block
ltcterry@reddit
What a shitty way to do training.
No-Foundation-8034@reddit
Pt.141?
Thick-Koala7861@reddit (OP)
not US based; easa
Decadius06@reddit
You need solo time in order to be able to apply for the license. This is not solo time and if the instructor is signing it off as such, they are a serious problem and you need to switch schools.
BathtubInTheSky@reddit
I detest schools that do this. Go solo, do the same thing you'd do as if the instructor were sitting there in silence, and you'll get used to after a couple flights. If you know any licensed pilots that aren't instructors, you could also take them up just to have an intermediate step.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
My school decided that I should do my solo flights with an instructor on board, called it "supervised solo". Now that I'm almost about to finish the requirements I don't feel confident to actually rent and fly solo. And this is starting to make me anxious that Im going to stop flying after finishing up and just let my license to rot there.
I wonder if anyone had similar experience or advice?
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