Advice on peer situation
Posted by gollyned@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 42 comments
I joined my current team a year ago. It was falling apart. The team members hated each other and were trying to get each other fired. The team lead who’d joined a quarter before had quit to join another team largely due to conflict with one difficult coworker.
Then I joined as the lead. I helped to stabilize the team over the last year. It’s grown from four to ten engineers. Three engineers joined specifically to work with me.
Yet the entire time I’ve been on that team, that one difficult coworker has been criticizing and fighting almost everything I’ve done. That coworker was relatively inexperienced, yet was told by a previous director that he was meant to be the lead of this platform. Hence the fighting with the other lead from a year ago. And with me over the past year.
It mostly comes across in passive-aggressive comments, and in trying to argue and prove he is right about trivial things, with every bit of disagreement. It used to come up in terms of aggression towards his peers. That stopped when me and my manager intervened. Yet continues with me.
My manager is a close ally and advocate of mine, and me of him. He isn’t very experienced and doesn’t know what to do with this problem. He gave some specific targeted feedback to stop having that engineer harp on already-made decisions and he scaled that back. But it’s a lot harder to give targeted feedback for snide comments, excessive nitpicking, so on.
I’m asking for advice on what to do. I’ve talked with the guy directly, but stopped short of a “you’re being passive-aggressive. Don’t do that” talk. I have a hard time imagining a confrontation like that going well. Last year before I joined when the team fell apart this guy went scorched earth in his annual reviews on the others. He actively badmouths most of the people he has worked closely with. He has a lot of anger. Yet he is quite good, and for those who only know him from a distance, has a reputation for being especially knowledgeable and helpful.
So I’m at a loss. My other teammates love working with me. I was promoted within the last year. I have my manager’s support, and my manager also thinks (not in similar words) that he’s an asshole. I feel like my options are 0. To have a much more direct and frank discussion with him directly. 1. to have a mediated conversation with him and my manager, 2. Give him negative, but I think accurate and well-calibrated, feedback., and 3. leave the team.
My main outcome I want is no longer wanting not to go into work or feeling like if I’m in a meeting or have a slack conversation with him he’s going to try to “score points” against me to make himself look good and me look bad so he can reclaim his rightful spot as lead — I’m really not selfish with titles and work, and have a strong bias towards growing owners over taking ownership of juicy work myself.
I doubt 0 would work well because he’s closed off whereas I’m willing to be open/empathetic. 1 might work but I’ve never done that, though my manager offered it at some point. 2. will probably cause a blow-up, but frankly it feels appropriate given how much drama and conflict he causes (both with me, sometimes with others on the team). 3. Almost feels inevitable — things suck enough for me that I can’t see myself staying here ruminating about this, it’s terrible for my well-being.
Thank you for your input.
karenmcgrane@reddit
To the extent that it is possible to have a favorite Harvard Business Review paper, this is mine:
Competent Jerks, Lovable Fools, and the Formation of Social Networks
Basically says that people who are competent but assholes tend to be seen as more valuable than people who are less competent but easy to get along with, but in fact the opposite is true. Competent jerks like your coworker do a lot of damage, they affect productivity, they destabilize teams, even if their own work output is good.
Your manager is failing to take responsibility here and you are in a tough spot. I do think the answer is 2, a frank conversation between you, your manager, and the competent jerk where you outline what behavior is not acceptable and your manager outlines the consequences. If 2 causes a blowup then that's just more evidence.
Depending on your manager's relationship with HR, it is worth asking them to have a conversation with the HR rep about how to present the potential consequences — verbal warning, written warning, PIP, termination. I'm a senior director and I'd have no problem talking to HR about this from a process standpoint — I would not expect HR to step in from a people management standpoint.
Document everything, in writing, by hand. Incidents, dates, times, who was there, what was said. It's not clear from your outline if what your coworker is doing would rise to the level of creating a hostile work environment, but if anyone involved is a member of a protected class then the stakes are even higher.
Do not personally go to HR (meaning, only your manager should talk to HR) unless you have talked to an employment lawyer. If it doesn't rise to the level of you thinking a free 15 minute consult with an employment lawyer is worth it, then it is not worth talking to HR.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
Thank you for your input. This is very valuable.
In the past my EM has been hesitant to have these concerns written down as "performance" concerns because he didn't want to make a poor impression on our new director. He also had given me feedback, which is not to let the other engineer's behavior bother me so much. But this would really have to be surfaced to my director, at the very least as part of performance evaluation.
I probably can end up documenting particular things, but not down to the date, and a lot of it would be hearsay about how others have told me they feel about interactions with him. Would I end up "dragging them into it" if I name those things?
And I think the way I'd approach these is to have a 1:1 with my manager, where I put forward this possibility, and also mention that I plan on (1) raising this with our director, who I have biweekly 1:1s with, (2) giving formal written feedback that balances his contributions, and is framed in terms of feedback relative to the next level -- to many's eyes, he's pretty much up for promotion. I'd omit mentioning or suggesting anything related to HR. I'd come prepared with a concrete list of items, but I still think to any reader, if I name only statements or actions, it won't be a compelling case, whereas if I mention what other engineers have confided in me, it would be a pretty strong case that something wrong is going on, but a good amount of those incidents would come from 6+ months ago, and some from late last year. Do you have thoughts on that plan?
Lastly, I'm two-levels above him. My flair says staff, but I was promoted to senior staff about ten months ago. I'm still anticipating something like "a senior staff engineer should be able to handle these kinds of squabbles with an IC4". Is this a legitimate risk in your eyes, or am I focusing too hard on this?
karenmcgrane@reddit
If you are not white then you are a member of a protected class and it's possible you can make a case for a hostile work environment even if your co-worker is not calling our your race specifically. (Socioeconomic class is not a protected class.)
"Don't let it bother you so much" is TERRIBLE management and frankly opens the company up to all kinds of risk. I'm not saying you have to venture into employment lawyer territory, but I am saying that you should look at it through that lens in addition to looking at it as a collaboration and a performance management issue.
Documenting what has happened in the past with rough dates is fine. Documenting what other engineers told you happened to them is also fine. Going forward, keep more accurate documentation, not just of what your co-worker says, but what your management and colleagues say. Send emails and screenshots to a personal account and keep backups. Definitely do this. Even if nothing comes of it legally, it's good protection for performance reviews and conversations.
Just to give you some context — you are never going to court. What would happen is that if you decided you were going to quit your job because of this guy, you would call up three employment lawyers and have a 15-20 minute call with each of them and they will tell you if you have a case. If you do, you will pay them a few hundred dollars and they will write a sternly written letter to your company. The lawyers will negotiate and you will get, say, a year's salary plus your health insurance covered. You are far better off quitting this way, plus it provides an incentive for your company to actually DO SOMETHING about this problem employee, so it's a win for you and also you're helping out everyone else.
As far as conversations you need to have in the meantime, absolutely do not mention HR or lawyers. I think your plan of having a 1:1 with your manager to discuss what you plan to say to your director is a good one. Sharing that you have collected feedback from a variety of people that goes back 6+ months is actually good, it shows a pattern of behavior that isn't just a guy being a dick because he's having a bad week. Try to frame it in terms of outcomes that matter to the business — not "he said this and it was rude and dismissive" but rather "he rejected my input, which caused a delay in the project, and required two additional people to resolve the conflict, which meant they weren't working on another task."
I think raising performance issues in an appropriate way to more senior people is precisely what I would expected from a senior staff engineer. Sure, in most cases you CAN work out performance management issues yourself, but with a real problem employee you can't. Knowing the difference and knowing how to have the conversations in a productive way is what makes someone senior.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
Thank you so much for your advice. I’ll take this to heart.
midasgoldentouch@reddit
Who is this guy’s manager? They need to have that “stop being passive aggressive” talk with him.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
He's my manager. When it comes to specific behaviors, he's intervened, and seen a difference in behavior. "Stop being passive-aggressive" is really hard to ask for a precise difference in behavior. I would doubt the other engineer even sees himself as being passive-aggressive, or know what behavior to end up changing.
apartment-seeker@reddit
Based on the post, guy isn't even passive aggressive, he's active aggressive lol
midasgoldentouch@reddit
Right
LogicRaven_@reddit
The root cause of the problem seems to be that this person believes they are entitled to a lead position, then using unprofessional ways to channel his frustration.
Your options are setting professional limits for him and enforce, remove him from the team, or you leaving.
For setting limits and enforcing, you would need the support of your manager and HR. You would need to know what you can say and what you would need to document. Be fair, direct, address his behaviour and give him a chance. Document everything.
Another way of removing him from the team is to move him somewhere else within the company. Could the previous director take this person to his team? Are there other teams where this guy could work better?
I have seen a manager who promoted a problematic staff engineer to a high level architecture board, way away of the teams. That worked ok for both of them.
I wouldn’t go 1:1 with him for the resolution of this problem. This is not a fight for you alone, you’ll need and deserve support.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
He definitely has and did feel entitled to the lead position, because at one point long ago he was explicitly told such by a senior director (who's no longer in our reporting chain). That probably was ill-advised, and explains why he had so many issues with the previous "lead" who was brought in because the team wasn't doing well relative to expectations (when in fact the director had just overcommitted them), and why he has so many issues with me.
mattbillenstein@reddit
I think I'd have a convo with your manager about moving him out of the team - or perhaps putting him on a PIP re these issues with the eventual goal of firing him if he doesn't drastically improve.
He's probably really unhappy anyway - I've seen this before, you fire someone, they learn from it, and they can thrive somewhere else. A lot of engineers are too lazy to quit and go do something else when they probably know they're not the right fit for the group of people they're working with.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
I don't think he's unhappy now, but he certainly was when I joined. He wasn't well supported by his director, who over-committed his team, then cast blame downward, and the other engineers besides him frankly just weren't (and aren't) up to par.
tinmanjk@reddit
So he is quite good, but inexperienced?
Sounds like a very good developer on a bad team for a long time that was promised something that management didn't deliver on (you taking his spot). How'd you feel about this in his place?
Also, you don't have anything concrete on him, so at this point it all reads like "I don't like the guy, he undermines me, how do I get him fired" even though he is a good dev. Not gonna be the one to tell you that it's okay. Either fight back, earn his respect or idk be an actual lead.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
Yes, he is effective as an IC, despite his inexperience. Relative to his experience he's among the top ~10% of engineers I've worked with, I think in large part because he's spent his entire career in this domain (but is out of his depth in other domains), and because he was part of the platform when it was built from the ground up, and because he worked on the predecessor platform.
It's true that his peers were not good, that he had to carry a lot of burden, that he wasn't appreciated by his previous director (who he had a lot of interpersonal beef with -- the director also was pretty widely disliked). If I were him, I'd feel upset that I'd worked so hard on the platform and not be recognized as the lead. We'd talked about this kind of thing when I first joined, and I was really sympathetic. He was clearly burned out, and that made a lot of sense to me.
I was chosen to be brought into this team because it was high-stakes, not doing well, and the previous lead's style was much more prone to conflict, whereas I had really good results working with and growing engineers rather than taking things over top-down. I really didn't want to take his place as lead. My style is overall a really light touch and high-trust, which other engineers appreciate and respond to well.
But I still have to be able to make engineering judgments that sometimes disagree with his -- in these cases, he consistently responds angrily and defensively. The previous lead had the same problem, but also was a grouchier style.
About fighting back in the nitpicking: it just takes way too much time, and I have a lot of other responsibilities on my plate, and won't be effective towards getting things done. I'd just end up trying to "win" petty arguments.
I do think I don't have his respect. In part that's because I hadn't worked with important parts of the stack before, things he knows more about than me. I also think regardless of whether he respects me or not, he needs to engage in technical discussions as if he did respect me, rather than with defensiveness. Disrespect doesn't have a place in a professional setting, and just reduces everyone's commitment and engagement.
snorktacular@reddit
If this guy had the rug pulled put from under him then he should leave, not take it out on his team. What, is he a toddler? This guy doesn't get to bully his peers just because things didn't go his way.
nasanu@reddit
IDK, why not?
Why not fuck over the team that fucked him over? Fair is fair.
UntestedMethod@reddit
Uhh so basically be the definition of a toxic employee/teammate until you're removed from the team?
nasanu@reddit
Yeah why not?
sammymammy2@reddit
I don't get it, you say that you think it's fine to create a toxic atmosphere, and then in another comment you think that it wouldn't actually be your fault for creating one? Acting like an asshole is not an acceptable strategy because you don't respect your team lead :-/.
nasanu@reddit
Why not? You are not presenting any valid argument against it.
sammymammy2@reddit
I'm not going to present "a valid argument" against acting like an asshole.
snorktacular@reddit
The teammates he's being such an asshole to that they're crying at work on the regular? Do you think they had any say in the matter?
Or if you want to be selfish: the atmosphere you create is the one you're stuck in. And it's almost certainly going to follow you to the next job. Good luck with that.
nasanu@reddit
Yeah no. You are getting one side of a story involving many. And your second point is bullshit, often promotions or the atmosphere has nothing to do with you.
codescapes@reddit
I think it has clearly reached the point of needing to be an HR issue. Document the worst behaviours (simple bulletpoint list, date it happened, who else was there) and go through whatever formal channels there are.
I have a general rule that "everyone gets one" i.e. if a colleague exhibits bad or unprofessional behaviour I'll generally give them the benefit of the doubt (so long as it's nothing awful). If it happens again then no kid gloves, lance the boil immediately or it festers.
This has been left to fester.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
I feel like I wouldn’t have much concrete and current to go on. In the past, early this year, I regret not going to HR. I didn’t want the team to blow up, and I didn’t want the stress of being on a team like that. But things are basically stable at this point.
In the past he would harass an underperforming teammate in every meeting, PR, slack conversation, until my manager and I told him to cut it out, which he did. That engineer was really psychologically distressed, to the point of tears, and leaving a team onsite early. But that was a year ago now.
Frankly if I were to be an HR person and read a complaint I’d received from me, I would think there’s nothing rising to the level of anything concrete and needing fixing, though I might be assuming too much. It could just as easily be defended as him giving me work feedback rather than what’s actually going on, hassling me.
biosc1@reddit
You still document it with HR and open a file. Waiting until something big happens is not what you do. Document the small stuff to show a persistent behaviour so when something big happens you have a track record.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
I actually hadn't considered this possibility. Especially considering that I think I'll soon have to write a negative performance review on account of these interpersonal issues, and that I think there's a very big possibility things would blow up.
Would this be something I talk with my manager about first? If this gets back to him through HR rather than through me I think it'll lose trust. Same for my director.
PedanticProgarmer@reddit
You are righ. Personality clashes and power struggles are not HR issues. It’s your manager being bad at managing.
Ask him point blank why he hasn’t yet fired the toxic person.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
More recently when I bring this up, he says that a junior engineer who works closely with him enjoys working with him. (To me: it's obvious why: a junior engineer won't disagree with him).
Third3yeWide@reddit
I’m sorry, but you had a direct report being bullied to the point of tears and you did nothing? To me that’s not someone I would want to work for, even if the work gets completed. You need to protect your employees more or else you risk other high performers leaving for good - putting you/the company in a worse spot.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
I’m not a manager. I told my manager, and he did take action — he was told not to interact with that engineer, and he stopped.
apartment-seeker@reddit
Wtf. Why didn't that guy get fired then?
Maybe the whole company is fucked up and toxic lol
I can't imagine this kind of behavior being considered acceptable at any tech company at which I have worked
Anyone who knows about his behavior and has the power to fire him (or at least start the process) and who is refraining from exercising said power is a bitch-ass fool. I pray I never encounter such spineless "leaders" in my career.
codescapes@reddit
This is where having concrete examples and a history of people who have had negative interactions is important. Ultimately you need to remind yourself that there are real costs to you and the team if this goes unaddressed and it's bad for the person engaging in poor behaviour too.
I'd actually feel considerably more comfortable going to HR as a team lead for guidance than as a peer. It's actually more "your job" as a lead and is not going to blow up on you if you do it professionally and sensibly.
This sort of stuff is what makes leadership challenging but it's a skill like any other that you can develop.
apartment-seeker@reddit
Why hasn't that guy been fired?
So many of these posts seem to come down to bad management that can't create good cultures; hire chill, competent, non-toxic people; and fire people who are either dumb or toxic.
If they won't fire him, can you switch teams?
gollyned@reddit (OP)
There are very few appropriate positions for me to switch into since I’m partially in a specialty, and because it would be in a technical leadership position which are not always open. I can think of one or two possibilities — reporting directly to my director, or following my old senior director to another org.
I haven’t explored them yet since either would set off alarm bells and escalate things in a possibly uncontrolled way. I’d like to do this deliberately. That senior director is very close with my manager, and my director would obviously be curious about my reasons for changing reporting and scope.
I’ve preferred my manager to keep things not escalated so far. I’m a higher level than that peer, so I think these kinds of things will reflect poorly on me regardless.
apartment-seeker@reddit
Start getting knowledge transfer and do what you can to try to can his candy-ass
It won't reflect poorly on you. You come across as way too worried about that in your posts here, IMO. If he's dragging your team down, and team doesn't meet goals, that will ultimately be the worst thing, and you look like an ineffective leader in the meantime.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
I am worried, but I do think the stakes are high.
It's also very difficult to draw a link between his behavior and the effectiveness of the team at this point, since now he mostly leaves everyone alone (except for me) and does work I'd characterize as "generous" -- version upgrades, operational fixes, small- and medium-sized work that wouldn't really net him glory.
With the exception of his passive-aggressiveness towards me, I'd say he's mostly fixed, in large part due to my/my manager's efforts at managing his behavior towards teammates earlier in the year.
snorktacular@reddit
Seriously. The graveyards are full of indispensable men, as they say. Imagine, what if he up and quit tomorrow? You'd be in exactly the same position. So you (really, the EM) might as well show the team you actually give a fuck and do what it takes to set things right.
It's a lot easier to regain knowledge and headcount than regain trust and morale.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
I'm in agreement; I think I'd use/lose a lot of capital at this point if I made the case. It's really clear my EM is resistant to doing something like this, especially now that the team has stabilized. I'd really be the one upsetting things now, and doing so for my own sake.
A new staff engineer recently joined on my recommendation. I get the sense the two are getting along well -- I also had a good initial impression of the difficult engineer, and sympathy for the fact that a lot of the burden of the team fell on him -- and it took a while for the problematic behaviors to show, especially whenever we disagreed on something, no matter how minor.
If I advocate for his removal from the team rather than accepting my own, I might be in a position where that other staff engineer holds it against me indefinitely.
I think my EM is also afraid it'll reflect poorly on him to our director. My EM has been a really strong advocate for me otherwise, except this is the one thing I actually need his advocacy for, and he's dropped the ball from my perspective.
So it's tough to say how hard to push on this vs. how much I emphasize I just focus on my own well-being.
maulowski@reddit
Similar experience here…except my EM was useless. Would not interfere nor set the tone, it got to the point that I gave up trying to fight my coworker. My teammate took all the good work and laid it upon himself that he is “the lead.” Until his work blew up our cloud costs because he did it design anything despite having “30 years experience”.
My old EM left and we got a new one and I’ve been managing up. Essentially my 1:1’s are led by me and if I’m frustrated by his work/comments, I make it known. If your EM backs you then keep meticulous notes and help him go after this dude. In a year my guy has largely toned down. I told my EM that one of our SE’s missed a lot of opportunities for growth because toxic dude took all the work. I still have a ways to go but now I’m going back and refactoring his code with my EM’a approval and giving it to my SE to work on so he can get promoted.
Work with your EM. This guy is toxic and get him out of the org he’s not worth the “talent” he brings in.
gollyned@reddit (OP)
Frankly I've been working with my EM the entire time; while he's OK taking quiet action to help insulate me, and at this point the difficult guy seems to mainly just have a problem with me (only intermittently with others -- he mostly works on his own now). My EM also mentioned he has a good relationship with a junior engineer, a newhire, in response to my complaints about him. It makes sense to me that the newhire and him have a good relationship, because the newhire wouldn't contradict him or disagree.
---why-so-serious---@reddit
Why? You shouldn't expect that it (any confrontation) will go well, but that doesn't preclude the conversation? I had an engineer (repeatedly) lie to me, and then go behind my back to push to production, and I made that asshole cry after I immediately found out. I felt horrible, and got reprimanded, but that was a very necessary conversation to have.