Why is there a strain of anti-intellectualism in British schools?
Posted by YetAnotherMia@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 396 comments
I mean generally, not in all cases or all schools but being smart and getting good grades is often looked down upon by many students in the UK. Not to compare too much but in China where a lot of my family are from it's desirable and respected. Being book smart is traditionally seen as one of the two parts of masculinity along with physical strength/athleticism and will make you cooler/more social status. I know people will say that getting good grades in China is more important so you can get a good career and not live in poverty but that's increasingly true of the UK now also.
Overgrown_Dwarf@reddit
Jokes on you.. i played both games and was both cool in school and a boffin in secret.
Deal with it for eyes 😌
knight-under-stars@reddit
For the same reasons that there is a strain of anti-intellectualism in British society as a whole. Among them:
Personally I think that anti-intellectualism in the UK is a result of those who have manipulating those who do not have so that the have nots turn on each other if they aspire to more.
ohthedarside@reddit
Combine all that with a genuinely horrible school experience thanks to our education system that is seamingly world class in causing stress and giving kids depression
And thats just the regular kids experience its even worse if a child is even slightly special needs or has additional challenges specialist school are filled and homeschooling isnt a option for alot of people so it becomes a choice of suffer at mainstream or pull out of school to prevent the kid from killing themselfs
BoltersnRivets@reddit
my "special needs" schools solution to me being the target of bullying by everyone else after my dad died was to stick me in isolation and forget about me until I finished school, I was essentially shut away each day with a laptop, no course work, and no interaction from the teachers
I'm nearly 30 now, can't drive, still struggling to ind a job and not for lack of trying and getting qualifications where education failed me, loving feeling like a failure in society because other people gave up on me
Responsible_Oil_5811@reddit
I don’t think the British education system causes as much stress and depression as the Asian educational systems, but I could be mistaken.
ohthedarside@reddit
Maybe not but i would genuinely say its top 5
Responsible_Oil_5811@reddit
It certainly would be an interesting comparison. One of my Canadian friends spent some time in France, and he said he found the teachers there much harsher than in Canada. That is interesting, especially since France never had the tradition of ritualized school corporal punishment which Britain, Canada, and the rest of the Commonwealth possessed.
Wessex-90@reddit
Also this the obsession with sport is a massive part of it (especially football).
AonghusMacKilkenny@reddit
Something I've noticed with a lot of these types is how ignorant and small minded they are towards other sports as welll. Saw it in PE, they never want to do anything besides kick a ball around. See it online whenever BBC/Sky Sports post about anything other than football "nobody cares" etc. It's pathetic.
dotelze@reddit
You often see people saying what do you talk about with someone if they say they don’t watch football. I like football, but imagining that being the only thing you can talk about with other people is tragic
Wessex-90@reddit
In my area, it’s really prominent and (I really don’t want to be the person saying this), it has caused a deterioration of behaviour in general. In my retail park, Hobbycraft is being replaced by ANOTHER sports shop (I think the fourth one in the retail park now).
Ill-Trash-7085@reddit
Simon Kuper, a Dutch writer, once blamed our insular footballing culture on being an island. Not sure if that's true or not but makes some sense. Often these things are deeper ingrained than we might imagine.
PressureBeautiful515@reddit
Not just working class! I had a Saturday job briefly in a supermarket, and one day the kid working next to me asked me what I was doing after the summer. Said what A-Levels I was going to start. He did a really aggressive snort and sneered at me, and looked around for someone to pass on this hilarious discovery to.
He knew literally nothing about me! But knew it was completely impossible for the random person he just met to be doing A-Levels. The very idea!
Master-Trick2850@reddit
People realised that grades dont correlate to income in the West, you can get a good paying job without having to bankrupt yourself sending your child to private tutors and extra classes
Which was such a big problem in China that they banned private tuition overnight
963df47a-0d1f-40b9@reddit
Is this actually true across the country? Or just cherry picked data? Sure there are more jobs now that pay big money without a degree, but I would assume there's still a correlation there
dotelze@reddit
No, statistically people with degrees are better off and academic achievement is directly correlated with financial success.
pajamakitten@reddit
You do not have to that to get half-decent grades though, nor should you bring down others who are actually trying.
chiip90@reddit
There is no need for private tutors except in very specific circumstances. Kids just need to pay attention in class and work harder (I know there are many barriers to learning but assuming there are none here). Sometimes tutors make things worse because the kid thinks they don't have to try anymore since they've got a safety net.
sgst@reddit
Feel like I'm a shining example of that. Worked really hard and did well in school so I could get into uni to study for the career I wanted. 5 years of degree & masters, £100k of student debt, and a few years of industry experience later and I'm earning a few grand less than median salary.
Meanwhile I know people who didn't get a degree and are on £100k.
When I started on the path to my career, the average salary for my position was the same nominal value as it is today - meaning the salary has literally not increased in a decade.
drunkpostin@reddit
What degree did you get?
brightdionysianeyes@reddit
The more time passes since university, the more I realise the key thing that determines whether or not university is worth it for you is who you meet at university.
Almeric@reddit
This doesn't explain why kids are so attracted to anti-intellectualism. Kids don't know much about to job market, certainly not enough to question education.
EglaFin@reddit
I’d assume it’s more - uncle works on a building site and he’s richer than mum who got a degree.
fat_penguin_04@reddit
This is one of the main reasons. I feel like the kids I know of mates who have been the ‘working class person come good’ tend to be some of the most anti-intellectual, despite also having very middle class comfortable lives. Unfortunately those who have left school often haven’t developed a work ethic of their parents.
Hopeful_Outcome_6816@reddit
I've never understood it either, it was like that when I was growing up. I was afraid to put my hand up in class to answer the teacher's questions because it wasn't worth the grief my classmates would give me grief. Also the teachers would often be down on us, basically telling us to aim low. I never heard I could be a great doctor or lawyer. Even school work experience was targeted at shop jobs and other minimum wage occupations. School tried to hammer the aspiration out of us,
Quick_Mongoose_2205@reddit
I am from a small mining village in the South Wales valleys where most people's parents are/were manual workers (nothing wrong with that by the way and some have made a good living). Throughout primary school during the early 2000s I was called a geek for being intellectual and being book-smart. The village is known for it's crabs in a bucket mentality where people want to see you do good, but not better than them.
I think being intellectual hinted at the possibility of you getting a well paid job when you are older and doing better than everyone else. Which, as mentioned above, is quite funny because a lot of men who went down the vocational path in school are doing better financially than some of the people that went to uni.
My Dad (who was born and raised in the same village) said it was the same when he grew up. I can't speak for this younger generation as I'm now 29, but it seems it was definitely a thing before.
Busy-Doughnut6180@reddit
I would say that Britain in general has a crabs in a bucket mentality.
Tammer_Stern@reddit
In private schools, it generally isn’t though. That’s why we have the inequality we do.
Bald_faux_fraud@reddit
There's also the postcode lottery. Go to a state school in a primarily middle class catchment and you'll find a very different culture at school.
FatSucks999@reddit
It’s not a lottery - you can move house
Scary-Towel6962@reddit
I went to school in Putney/Richmond area which is pretty affluent and has tons of utter scum in my school
GoldenSonOfColchis@reddit
Yup. I was just out of catchment for the "good" school, which had a direct feed from their Sixth Form to top universities, and instead went to what was one of the worst schools in the country at the time.
I ended up doing fairly well for myself, but I sometimes wonder how much easier I'd have had it, or how much further I could be, if I'd lived 2 streets over.
Theory89@reddit
Eh. I went to a top boarding school and was bullied and sexually abused. The good school isn't always good. It doesn't change who you are. I've had 200 hours of therapy and I'm still a broken 36 year old man living with his parents again. Obviously I'm not saying you would've wasted the opportunity quite as spectacularly, but just that it's not always the golden ticket it may seem.
AonghusMacKilkenny@reddit
I went to a rough all-boys comprehensive. My mate got into sixth form at a grammar school 10 minutes down the road. The difference in culture was startling to him, having grown up on a council estate. In his words he said there's "basically no chavs" I.e. skinheaded thugs with no prospects in life trying to drag everyone else down with them.
Interesting_Law4332@reddit
Jeezus Christ. That’s beyond messed up yet British culture always blames the individual, shame really /:
Convair101@reddit
Exactly the same experience for me - wrong street, wrong catchment area. Resultant experience was five years of bullying and missed opportunities. Life changed for the better the moment I left.
smileystarfish@reddit
Yup, my partner and I went to state schools that are a 15 minute drive from each other.
He got bullied for being smart, 26% pupils at his school achieved 5 A*-C including English and Maths, versus 78% at my school. The most popular kids at my school were all high achievers.
We do wonder how his experience would have been different, but he still did well and got his degree.
Difficult_Egg_4350@reddit
I'm not sure about that, or at least it's not guaranteed. I went to a grammar school, there was still an element of mocking the kids who put their hand up in class, were aiming for Oxbridge, or did a non-sporty extra curricular etc. My husband, a teacher at a selective state school, says this is still the case and the leadership team is actively trying to change the culture but it's pretty pervasive.
Terrible-Group-9602@reddit
I'm a teacher and no you won't lol.
RochePso@reddit
As much as the teachers try to avoid it, yes you do.
Source: I live next to a school on a council estate that my kids went to and my wife works at. There are so many little shits who get parental backup if anyone tries to get them to stop being shits
Terrible-Group-9602@reddit
I think you misread who I was responding to. I don't disagree with you.
smash993@reddit
Yes I’ve seen this too on the other foot who got to go to the “good” school. This resulted in me being called posh for many future years in college and after and despite still a state school everyone who had gone to it was posh no matter of background.
AutistGobbChopp@reddit
It's part of the reason
I went to one of the UKs worst schools, 50 pupils per class, alcoholic headteacher, physically abusive teachers. It was shut down not long after I left.
At my next school I had some serious catching up to do, I was made fun of and ostracized by other pupils for working hard and getting As. I kept my head down and did well regardless, and now I'm paying for their benefits. 🥳
colbalt27@reddit
Goodness what decade was this?
AutistGobbChopp@reddit
I left the school in 1997; it was shut down, IIRC, around 2000.
It was in a town not far from the M25, in a firmly middle-class area.
I remember much of it very clearly.
One strong memory was of a teacher who drew blood from the scruff of my neck with her talons. It would seem I was too slow collecting my coat from the "cloakroom," and she was particularly impatient that day (I couldn't find it, as another pupil thought it would be funny to hide it).
Another teacher would never allow me to leave the class for my (paid for) music lessons that the school itself was running. My parents had no idea, and they couldn't really afford the lessons at the time, but they continued paying and I continued not attending thanks to this teacher.
Other pupils were excused. She used to call me all sorts of names — "stupid dollop" being a favourite.
The headteacher, as pleasant as he was, was always drunk. Bright red, stumbling drunk. Bottles of spirits on open display in his office.
When we were called into our school canteen to sit our SATs, we had no idea what was happening. We didn't receive a single Maths, English, or Science lesson and so went into the exams completely unprepared. It was absolutely terrible.
colbalt27@reddit
The 1990s - I don't know why I was thinking it would be the cigarette smoke filled 1970s in my head (maybe hearing story family member who were children then of chain smoking teachers/nuns throwing chalk at students they thought weren't paying attention)
What were the parents evening like?
For some reason I'm just imagining him being the person giving all the teaches a lift to the pub
You should write a book.
Texuk1@reddit
I thought there was a similar thing in private schools where you needed to appear not to have put any effort at being smart, there was a sort of art in appearing effortlessly intelligent and well spoken and not a “boffin”.
Harry98376@reddit
Good on the private schools then.
Current-Ad1688@reddit
I tried to be a teacher for a bit. It's a hell of a lot easier at private schools lol.
Tigertotz_411@reddit
Its exactly the same at the top, and the bottom. The elite might take more pride in APPEARING smart, but they're no different in mindset really. Scratch beneath the surface and there's cliques everywhere.
Shameless_Bullshiter@reddit
That and the other plethora of advantages the wealthy have
Responsible_Oil_5811@reddit
Nobody is forcing working class boys to consider scholasticism unmanly.
Shameless_Bullshiter@reddit
No one said that was the case
Chorus23@reddit
So what are you saying?
Shameless_Bullshiter@reddit
That the working class suffer from antintellectualism, but it's not the only reason the wealthy are wealthier than them. Wealth brings a huge number of advantages.
Chorus23@reddit
Wealth does bring huge advantages. But working class families/children pushing anti-intellectualism is only harming themselves. They need to stop listening to the million/billion-aire owned press and start thinking about what is really valuable in this life.
Letter_Effective@reddit
I tend to agree; I have a lot to thank my Asian immigrant parents who weren't rich by any means but cared a lot about my academic success from my 11+ to A Levels and were insistent on my going to a good university afterwards. I do think that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy when parents think that their children's situations will never improve anyway. Having said that, changing this entire 'crabs in the bucket' mentality is harder than just flicking a switch, especially if the kid doesn't want to be bullied by their peers for being a 'nerd'.
Chorus23@reddit
Nerd bullying is not a new thing. I went to a village state schoo in the 1980s. It was mild but there was definitely a tendency to bully smarter kids. However, I imagine it is worse for kids today. My son is fortunate enough to go to a good school, but if this was not the case, I shudder to think of the negative social pressure he would be under.
wordshavenomeanings@reddit
There are significant cultural and social pressures, though.
From the Beano to the inbetweeners, there is a cultural view that manly and academic do not mix.
Responsible_Oil_5811@reddit
Indeed 😢
phoenixlology@reddit
Their parents and peers unfortunately.
springsomnia@reddit
As someone who went to a private school on a scholarship briefly I would argue there’s some anti intellectualism but you’re right that there’s generally not compared to the state system, which I’ve also been educated in. Some rich private school kids think that because they’re rich and they’ll get a job at daddy’s company they don’t need to study or do well. But that still is quite rare and isn’t the majority and a lot of private school kids have more opportunities and easy access to have a more intellectual culture.
jonomacd@reddit
Private schools are part of the problem. A lot of this culture is driven from the kids. We take kids who are more inclined to be academically focused remove them from the public system.
What are we left with?
parallax3900@reddit
Because governments don't like the public to have any imagination. It might convince the wealthy they aren't in control.
PositiveChocolate9@reddit
Yep it was the same when I was at school some 20 years ago. I never understood it and think it's something fundamentally wrong about our culture.
lubbockin@reddit
it was the same 40 years ago, if you paid attention or were too smart you were a swot or teachers pet.
working class anti intellectualism is their own enemy.
DandelionWhisper29@reddit
That resistance to academic achievement keeps social mobility limited, reinforcing the very divides it’s reacting against. It’s sad, because the attitude that “trying is uncool” just hands power right back to the elite.
actualinsomnia531@reddit
I don't think it's that well thought through at school age. It's just the tribalism of bullies. In posh private schools, the bullies target the poor kids, regardless of academic achievement. Or the weak kids, or the feminine kids. Whatever stands out and makes the bully feel inadequate really. Classism has an effect, but especially at younger years it's just reactionary.
Princelysum@reddit
"In posh private schools, the bullies target the poor kids" what makes you think that?
shrized@reddit
Friend of mine was referred to as "Charity Case" by a lovely group of students at uni because he had a local accent.
Worldly_Turnip7042@reddit
this has happened to EVERY scot I know at uni of edinburgh
Basteir@reddit
Eh? But Edinburgh is our capital. Who's making fun of them, Yank international students? If foreigners made fun of standard English in Scotland, or Scots language, and they weren't just amused by the differences or kidding on, I'd tell them to feck off out of the country lol.
HotProposal88@reddit
Calm down pippin, it’s the English home students doing it
Basteir@reddit
I see. Well they wouldn't be home students if they are in Edinburgh really then - they'd be fee paying.
If I try to empathise with them, maybe they might do that as a defence mechanism in an unfamiliar place - creating some kind of inferiority complex that they didn't have before.
HotProposal88@reddit
In relation to Scotland, the English are international students then? Lmao
Basteir@reddit
Well not really because of the union. But kinda halfway to being so? - they need to pay fees like other international students do, and they have their own separate education system. For example they don't sit the same exams south of the border.
shrized@reddit
In my friends case it was English students from wealthy backgrounds. He was attending Newcastle Uni and had a geordie accent
Worldly_Turnip7042@reddit
Mainly privately educated English
Weekly_Beautiful_603@reddit
Try being Welsh
actualinsomnia531@reddit
Loads of friends from private schools over the years and a few teachers. My brother went to a very elitist uni and got a bit of t since we was from a state school. All report the same thing, but to be fair a lot of the schools have greatly targeted this sort of behaviour in recent years.
But to quote an anonymous source: "Some years are better than others, but I can't wait till this year ends and we get rid of the entitled little f*cks in the upper sixth"
Princelysum@reddit
Interesting. My experience suggests that parents wealth is actually very low on the scale of "indicators for the likelihood of being bullied". I can't imagine a stereotypical victim being any less likely to be bullied because their parents were wealthy. Equally I can't imagine a child being bullied because they are from a relatively poor family. I've always thought school as an equaliser, in that sense. It's not even that easy to tell who is from a "poor" family at a private school. Spotting who is from uber wealth is fairly straight forward however 😀
123twiglets@reddit
You can't imagine someone being bullied cause they're wearing ripped shoes or their clothes are too small?
Princelysum@reddit
We're discussing the poorest person at a private school
123twiglets@reddit
Don't see what difference it makes, if someone's parents aren't always buying the latest football boots or whatever item of clothing, that opens them up to bullying, and bullying about where you shop is incredibly common
Princelysum@reddit
The difference is that any child at a private school has parents already paying $$$ for fees so even the poorest in the school will have the essentials
HenrytheCollie@reddit
There are still lots of kids who've only got in via an acedemic scholarship (to keep the illusion that the school is a charity) and a lot of parents who will accept lower paying jobs as staff for the school in order to get their kids in there.
As a qualified Lifegaurd and swim teacher, I've thought about it for when my kids reach that age
Slyspy006@reddit
But the bullying over such things isn't about having the essentials, it is about having the right style or brand. Hand-me-downs or cheap/unfashionable brands can make someone a target just like any other form of difference.
123twiglets@reddit
Right but you can, and people do, buy different levels of non-essential stuff, such as trainers/branded clothes
RisingDeadMan0@reddit
yes because bill gates totally dresses like he was the richest man in the world
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/22/inside-dinner-with-warren-buffett-and-bill-gates-at-piccolo-in-omaha.html
Yeah these two clowns, looking uber wealthy... lmao
Mister_Funktastic@reddit
Happened to me. The school I went to had a primary school and secondary school. My mum was a teacher at primary, and got 2 thirds off fees for me to go to the secondary. I was one of the poorest there. Unless your trainers were brand new Nike's or Lacoste or some shit, you'd find them shredded and covered in shit.
michaelisnotginger@reddit
Wasn't my experience. Just the nerdy kids who couldn't throw a rugby ball, regardless of how much money their parents had
GooseMan1515@reddit
This is absolutely on the money. Former bursary kid from posh private school here. They target people who don't fit in. If many of them realised this pattern of behavior was as explicitly classist as it is, they'd tone it down; they're mostly concerned with ironing out divergence.
ThePeake@reddit
Tall poppy syndrome.
Safe-Purchase2494@reddit
That is it, in a nutshell.
FatBloke4@reddit
True - but these ideas come from parents.
Years ago I lived in an ex council house. The folk next door were friendly enough on the surface. I was once talking with the father, who told me he didn't care if his children went to school as "it was a waste of time and never did him any good" and that he played truant a lot. It later transpired that his son was a lookout in the second burglary of my home. A year or so later, his daughter was jailed for stabbing another teen girl in the stomach.
JohnInBrazil@reddit
I was a poor kid at a private grammar, got there on a scholarship. I was bullied relentlessly but I had a small group of nerd friends so I got through it ok. In sixth form I went on a school skiing trip. One of the bully lads there took the piss out of my rented equipment and said "I bet this is a big thing for you isn't it? I bet your parents had to save up for this because you're poor". He was right, that was actually my first time ever abroad and my family forewent any holidays for two years to pay for it, because they thought it might "help me to fit in at last".
There were some very lovely extremely rich people who treated me very well and there were some absolute cunts. I think that's just life.
actualinsomnia531@reddit
Sadly, it seems there are arseholes in every aspect of life. Sorry you had to put up with that.
Antique_Client_5643@reddit
I was a poor kid at a posh private school and nobody specially picked on me or the other couple of poor kids. I don't think it's a big factor at all in who gets picked on -- it was the awkward, troubled ones etc.
CaramelGreat8173@reddit
In my experience it was the same as anywhere else… awkward kids get picked on regardless of wealth. That was more a inter-school issue (I used to get rocks thrown at me to chants of “mummy doesn’t love you” from the state school bullies 😂)
The bullies tended to pick on the speccies… it’s just there would be more bullies also in top set.
l4044l@reddit
Schools are not designed to enable kids a bright rich future like these elites have..they are designed to give them the bare essentials tools to fill a place in at lower ends of the work force. If everyone was highly skilled demand would be lower for things and capitalism would fall apart
BadMachine@reddit
i feel that’s a very passive perspective. most people who feel motivated have a choice about whether or not to study hard or try to do well in school. and that’s where many classrooms in britain differ from some other countries, especially in asia, for example.
l4044l@reddit
Very good point, Whole different way of life out there though.
bart007345@reddit
No one talks about this but this is a big difference between the indigenous white population and immigrants.
Terrible-Group-9602@reddit
It's also the same in any western country. Cultural differences. Being creative, sporty, artistic is valued just as much here as academic success, perhaps more so.
In the UK we comparatively recently emerged from a period of full employment. In the 1960's it genuinely was the case that you were going to get a job no matter what your grades, people often left school at 14 or earlier.
DaveChild@reddit
We're in full employment now.
Terrible-Group-9602@reddit
What??
DaveChild@reddit
I said:
Terrible-Group-9602@reddit
Ah a joke, I see
Dropped_Apollo@reddit
That happened to my dad. He left school in 1972 with no qualifications and ended up becoming a lawyer - he self-taught his A Levels as a private candidate and qualified to go to a former-poly university. Ended up on a salary about four times higher than anything I've ever earned.
The point is that his classmates, who also left with no qualifications but didn't become lawyers, still got decent jobs and were mostly homeowners at comparatively young ages.
Thai-Girl69@reddit
Until you watch those BBC archived documentaries from decades ago and realise even people from the poorest places in the UK could still confidently articulate themselves and you are able to clearly understand everything they are saying. Compare that to the lazy, mumbling uncertainty of today where people are afraid to conduct a formal conversation over the phone because in many cases they have no idea what certain words mean or which words' are actually just slang terms. I remember around 2007 getting a job application from someone who had just recently graduated from Leicester University and the email he sent with his CV attachment was written in abbreviated text speak. I want to be clear too that this isn't a race thing or only an issue amongst recent arrival to the UK whose first language isn't English. There are white, educated, middle class young people who spend the majority of their time communicating via social media or online games and they can't see any problem with talking like that because to them that's the normal way to talk. There is a BBC documentary on YouTube that features poor, working class 'bin men' in Belfast during the late 60's. They speak clearer and better articulated English than the average young person working today in a retail role where the job requires them to talk to customers in a professional manner. How is a poor working class Ulsterman working garbage trucks in the 60's more articulate than a privileged, educated and native born white English Gen Z university student.
anunkneemouse@reddit
This was also the case 25 years ago.
One might say, its not a new thing and every single generation is jealous of the smarter few within it.
Nobody wants to feel dumb, so they get angry. Normal behaviour, and yet another reason why schools are actually shit for kids who are smart.
TynamM@reddit
Nothing working class about it; I saw the same thing and I went to a highly selective grammar school where everyone was super smart by most kids standards. You still didn't want to end up seen as a teacher's pet.
Middle and upper class adults don't do this but the kids sure pick it up. It's a pervasive British cultural problem exacerbated by bullshit news.
StarGirlK1021@reddit
I too went to a top grammar school and looking back it’s kind of hilarious how desperate we all were not to appear to be a teacher’s pet.
Although unlike the descriptions of other schools in this thread, to the best of my knowledge no one at my school was bullied. It was a very friendly school and I was the outsider (I’m autistic and have social anxiety) and I was widely considered “weird” but still had a small friend group and the other girls were never mean to me. There was a girl in my class who very clearly was autistic but undiagnosed and she was very innocent and naive compared to everyone else, even me. Sometimes someone would call her a “boff” behind her back because she was always eager to answer teachers’ questions but I never saw anyone be nasty to her either. The only bullies I experienced were some of the teachers.
I would say, though, that by Year 10-11 people were mostly past that anti-intellectual mindset and everyone became more serious in class.
Esqulax@reddit
20 years ago it was 'being a boff'.
I guess saying 'boffin' had just gone out of style, and using 'abbrevs' was better :D
Ok_Marketing5676@reddit
We call it the working class curse where I'm from. It's a form of self-perpetuating oppression. Thousands of years of being told you are less valuable than the mud you farm. When you get to the point where there are many, many opportunities for you, you hesitate and feel like "that kind of thing isn't for me".
I knew someone who won tickets to a ballet and was really excited. A few days later she had convinced herself that she wouldn't be welcome and that anything she wore would be frowned upon. Was really sad.
Saw it all the time growing up. Kids who previously wanted to be various things balking at the thought of going to university. A guy I know who can take a boat engine apart and put it back together again still insists that he's stupid. University isn't for everyone and it most certainly does not guarantee success, but this self-imposed culture of it immediately being not an option for you because of your upbringing is incredibly destructive.
I have many, many more examples. What started as the upper and middle classes oppressing the working/lower class completely is now perpetuated by the working class themselves.
Many people escape this thought pattern but it's very difficult when you have family reinforcing it. You need to have supportive families or be proactively contrarian and dodge the negativity.
cpt_hatstand@reddit
"Boff" in my school, although the thick cunt that tried to write that on my workbook during a lesson managed to call me a "Both"
Boring-Abroad-2067@reddit
Lol I remember boffin, like it should be cool to learn
Prof_Walrus@reddit
And it's not even limited to Britain. Pretty sure it's the same across all the West
TheIncredibleFail@reddit
Was going to say this is a feature of British life. The stupid are worshipped and the intelligent mistrusted. I was at school in the 80s/90s and answering a question in class could get you mocked for a week. Being good at science or maths got you bullied.
smay1989@reddit
Probably the same at Eton tbh - nobody likes a teachers pet
pajamakitten@reddit
Being academic and being a teacher's pet are not mutually exclusive.
Otherwise_Craft9003@reddit
This
IrishWarhog@reddit
Also because the smart kids will do well and there's a pre-jealousy at play. Ambition and effort are the twin dirty words
BigDumbGreenMong@reddit
Yeah, I went to a scummy comp in Stockport in the 80s and wanting to do well in your lessons pretty much put a big red target on your back for the bullies.
A lot of the classes were completely unmanageable - I did two years of German GCSE and barely learned a thing because the kids in the class were a nightmare and the teacher was completely wet.
forfar4@reddit
Working class lad here, mid-fifties, so I was at school in the Midlands from about 1972- 1984.
It always seemed like the main kids behind "trying is uncool" were either educationally challenged (in terms of reading, writing and arithmetic, the foundational elements of learning) or were so suppressed by the social structures in school that they wouldn't try to learn in case they got things wrong, exposing them to ridicule amongst their peers and, potentially, moving them down the social ladder at school (not invited to sit at lunchtime, not invited to hang out after school with the "cool kids".
The first group, I have a lot of sympathy for. If it's not "there" then there's not a lot that can be done, other than to find the childs strengths and develop those skills instead.
For the "socially precarious" I suppose it's difficult to fight the herd mentality, but it sets in train behaviours which are still debilitating throughout life, always having to be aware of what is the "appreciate" response in any given situation and never really living one's life for oneself.
Me? Fat (220lbs at the age of 14 - since achieved a healthy BMI), plain-looking, couldn't afford fashionable clothes but not into typical nerds things like Sci-Fi or "scorcery-type entertainment" so I wasn't simply dismissed as a nerd. I got on with my schooling and took great delight in challenging teachers on what was being taught (in hindsight. - a prick).
The funny thing is though, that as I got towards the end of school, I had a pretty mature relationship with the teachers with very little deference (either way) but a mutual respect apparently based on the fact that I listened to what they had to say, engaged with the information and came up with my own conclusions, rightly or wrongly.
Following the crowd is probably more socially stunting than having a genuine educational need.
Moppo_@reddit
It was the same when my Dad was in school, nearly 70 years ago he put all the effort he could into passing the 11+ exam to get into the grammar school, because anyone who got half-decent grades in the regular school he was in was guaranteed to be bullied.
CrescentDaisy@reddit
Britain’s class culture has deep roots in that mindset. For a long time, intellectualism was associated with the upper or middle class, so for many working-class kids, rejecting it became a kind of identity, a way to assert pride and independence from the “posh” world.
lefttillldeath@reddit
Or a last ditch attempt at rejecting the construct of your everyday life.
You’re not going to do well so why bother trying and anyone that does is too clever to realise they arnt.
Princelysum@reddit
Aren't what? Love this comment but not sure I understand it having re-read a few times
lefttillldeath@reddit
A smart man tries hard to better himself.
A wise man realises when he can’t.
Princelysum@reddit
That's awesome! If I take wise does that justify basement dwelling?
serialist@reddit
I would suggest it probably goes back further than that, to a time when intellectual endeavours were effectively prohibited for the working classes. There's an undercurrent of resentment and a belief that intellectualism isn't 'for' them that I don't know would be present if it were just about expressing an identity distinct from the posh world? Like, it seems like they're rejecting intellectualism before intellectuals are given the opportunity to shut them out.
But I'm not a British citizen and didn't grow up here, so I've only got outside observations to go on. I could be totally wrong and missing some nuance here.
EnigmaMissing@reddit
My mum grew up with this. She was kicked out of the house at 15 (in the 80s) because she wanted to go to college and university instead of hitting the factory after school with the rest of her family
I don't have it as bad, but because dad had it in his head I'd hit the ground running as some kind of high-end exec after getting my bachelors, and I haven't, he's questioning why I thought I could do any better than the rest of my family. There's a multitude of reasons I don't want his life, but he won't hear it because all I get is "it paid for your freedom" and that one always gets me
Gisschace@reddit
My friends mum was like this in the ‘00s she had a huge fight with her parents cause she wanted to go to college and do drama but they wanted her to work in Safeways with her mum!
Couldn’t get my head round it as the rest of us had parents who were nagging us to get good grades, and she had the reverse! She did go to college but ended up not really doing anything afterwards, had kids young like her parents.
SojournerInThisVale@reddit
The irony is that once upon a time the working classes campaigned for and had movements designed to promote education. There’s a tiny mining village up in Scotland that has a library. It was founded by the miners in the 17 or 1800s for their mutual self betterment. That would be unthinkable among their successors today
Snoo-84389@reddit
Yup, 100% correct from my experiences in a London comprehensive school in the early 1980's.
Unfortunately, this is nowt new... In my experience many kids back then were leaving schools to either join family businesses or go straight into practical trade jobs (brickie, chippie, sparks etc) where qualifications didn't seem all that relevant/ required.
I imagine that both those situations have since changed, so it's doubly crap if that same anti-intellectualism is still at work...
coastaltikka@reddit
That’s why people pay THOUSANDS to send their kids to public school, so they aren’t surrounded and influenced by anti-intellectual classmates from working / lower-middle class backgrounds.
Spank86@reddit
Crabs in a bucket.
Fungled@reddit
“Why would we need to oppress the working classes? They seem quite happy to do it to themselves”
Professional-Deer-50@reddit
I got bullied in the early 1970s for doing my homework and being a swot - nothing has changed 🙄
Original-Material301@reddit
Yeah when I was at school in the mid 90s to 2000s this was the same.
Luckily I managed to straddle both worlds at the time and came out OK but God the actual smart ones had a rough time.
PressureBeautiful515@reddit
I was at a nondescript comprehensive in the late 80s, and they divided us into "sets" by ability. In the top set it was very work-focused and taking pride in nailing your homework etc. My friend got "promoted" to the top set during our second year and said he couldn't believe how different it was, suddenly felt a lot more pressure to appear keen and smart, which must have been peer pressure I guess.
Informal-Tour-8201@reddit
Yup
It's the whole "the nail that sticks up needs to be hammered down"
greatdrams23@reddit
It was the same when I was at school in the 60s.
lubbockin@reddit
it's a terrible thing, it certainly held me back in life, coming from working class and going to the same schools. .
Scary-Try3023@reddit
I’m 30, and even 20 years ago it was frowned upon to be a nerd/geek etc, only exception was the music kids who somehow were having orgies and that all the time.
D1789@reddit
Jealousy.
Simple as that really.
The reasons behind why that jealousy exists can be more complex and varied kid to kid.
But ultimately, it comes down to jealousy.
smash993@reddit
I think this is part of it 100%, also maybe studies not taken 100% seriously as “being cool” becomes more important.
Also at GCSE level I see some kids become more distracted, especially if paid work is involved. I myself being in this bucket too. I felt disappointed in my nephew who was very bright and showed much promise, the family moved so less contact in recent years but to hear he got 2 part-time jobs, a girlfriend, loss interest in studies, failed some of his GCSE’s and scraping passes in others was disappointing considering his earlier predicted grades.
Responsible_Oil_5811@reddit
I don’t think kids at GCSE level should have jobs for that reason.
SpecialistFarmer771@reddit
Nope, completely wrong. Kids should be able to get jobs earlier in my opinion, not everyone comes from a middle class family or a good family.
I scraped 3's and 4's in my GCSE, but got straight A's in my A-Levels. The difference? I didn't have much food in my belly when I was doing my GCSEs, while I had plenty when I did my A-Levels.
Responsible_Oil_5811@reddit
I’m sorry to hear that was the case for you.
smash993@reddit
I’m in agreement, I can see how it’s needed often with everything being so expensive and families can’t just shed out money all the time for teenagers to do teenage things but it needs to be managed from the parents to make sure academic work doesn’t suffer.
lika_86@reddit
I'm not sure it’s jealousy. If a kid excels at say, running and sports, they don't get picked on in the same way. Which means it's something else.
PressureBeautiful515@reddit
Human intelligence is way "over specced" for the survival challenges we had to deal in our evolutionary history. Therefore the real challenge must have been competing mentally with other people for sexual partners. That must have been the most powerful selection pressure that guided human evolution. This is why intelligence is different from any other characteristic that we could demonstrate. It's the one that matters far more.
Atlantis3311@reddit
So you’re saying I underperformed at GCSE for freudian reasons?
Perhaps. However the school I went to was objectively bad.
Linguistin229@reddit
Kids can seem “naturally intelligent” from a combination of nature and nurture (not in a bona fide genius way, but in a generally doesn’t struggle with academics way).
Likewise, you can have natural athletic ability and a family that’s always been active that gives you a leg up for sports.
But anyone, provided they are able bodied, can increase their fitness and get better at sports. Not everyone can “increase their intelligence” just by practice in the same way.
Significant-Pay-8984@reddit
I firmly believe academic achievement is not something to do with genuine intelligence, moreso than it is socio-economic status of the family, motivation and willingness to conform to schools standards.
Anyone who studies a course enough will get stellar grades. I know engineers who got amazing grades right up to uni, but cant tell plastic from glass.
drunkpostin@reddit
Maybe that’s true for up to and including GCSEs and such, but the higher up you go the more intelligence starts doing a lot of the heavy lifting. Hard work is a must, obviously, but the difference between studying tirelessly like an unstoppable machine everyday vs just doing some light revision and reading in the evening is mostly down to intelligence. I think the average IQ for Cambridge maths or physics students is something mental like 140-145, I believe. If you’re an average 100 IQ Joe, the level of work you’d have to put in compared to them would be genuinely biblically Herculean. Like totally different worlds.
Don’t get me wrong, I really do think some people obsess far too much about intelligence. You can still be a super interesting individual with a unique, beautiful mind without having a genius IQ, but in academia (Mostly STEM and the like - I doubt it’d be TOO significant for the humanities as long as you’re at least fairly bright) it really is a huge component of success
Tigertotz_411@reddit
Textbook intelligence is pretty much defined by academic achievement but thats not the only form of intelligence, far from it.
But intelligence of course not because it is experiential as well as based on textbook knowledge, plenty of bright capable people are not academic.
Responsible_Oil_5811@reddit
I would argue both academic and athletic ability are strongly correlated with the family to which you were born.
Texuk1@reddit
I think this is true but the reasons are not always transparent, it’s not solely inherited if that’s what you are getting at.
. There are kids who just have significantly more advantages to others, there was some studies about the number of words a child hears before they are 5 is correlated with academic achievement (and why the advice to constantly talk to your baby and read to them).
Often the advantage comes simply by being in a more academic environment - kids in more academic home environments play more word games, verbal sparing, play with double meanings, subtexts, they literally hear tens of thousands of more words before they start school, etc. they are basically being trained up, without any deliberate effort, to understand language differently from day one. Kids who have a parent who can afford to be at home who can provide healthy (no sugar /caffeine) meals and is interested in homework have enormous advantage over other kids who “think that’s the teachers job”. A lot of parents don’t even know the academic arms race in middle class and immigrant households, they are completely oblivious to the level of effort put in to try to get a good university slot.
There are also a big subset of parents who are paying to play, spending thousands on tutors and burning out their young children. I know someone (1st gen immigrants) paying someone to tutor their kid 12!! Hours a day in the summer. He looked miserable.
Responsible_Oil_5811@reddit
Poor kid!
mystikkkkk@reddit
the phenomenon is anything but simple. nothing about social psychology is that simple. to put it all down to jealousy is about as reductionist as you can get.
gogybo@reddit
I don't think it does. Jealousy would require your average teenager to value book-smarts in the first place, which they don't. Even those who want to go on to uni know that GCSEs are only good for getting to A-levels and are basically worthless otherwise. Attitudes change though as you begin to learn stuff that's more directly useful to you, whether at college, uni or the workplace.
danddersson@reddit
Jealousy and The Beano.
Although, I have not read the latter in a while: I believe Softy Walter is more respected now?
sincerityisscxry@reddit
Not really, he’s portrayed as a posh bully now.
No_Parsnip_1579@reddit
Try looking in a grammar school or even one just outside of a rough area and they arent like this at all.
FootballPublic7974@reddit
Others have said the same but I want to add my tuppence ha'penny..
I've been teaching for 31 years now, god help me, and it's always been like this.
It was like this when I was at school and it almost condemned me to a life of manual work (not that there's anything wrong with that...my dad drove a class 1 hgv all his life and I'm so proud of him..but he wanted more for me)
One of the saddest moments of my "career" was one parents evening, a 1/4 of a century ago. I was telling a couple about how much of a twat their sprog was, and I could see the dad glowing (almost literally*) with pride. His only comment was "I was the same when I was at school"
*yes, I know that "almost literally" isn't literally. Like I give a shit...I'm a maths teacher!
SpecialistFarmer771@reddit
No offence but you're never "condemned" to a certain fate based off exams you do when you're fucking 15 - this is exactly the sort of issue with some schools and teachers.
I barely scraped 3s and 4s on my GCSEs because I had barely any food in my stomach and inadequate shelter. You can't learn in those conditions and teachers just don't care.
I dropped out of College in the first month and then got a full time job - with food in my stomach and better living conditions, I redid my GCSEs and then went to College again and got straight A's on my A-Levels.
There's definitely a lot of twats who screw up on purpose, but in schools in deprived areas there is a lot of kids (and these kids are typically quieter, and so fade into the background) who don't have basic nutrition or shelter who would be 100X more benefitted to leave school in Year 10/11, get a full time job, get themselves some real world skills and improve their living conditions, and then redo their academics a year or so later.
saberking321@reddit
It's looked down upon by the establishment to think for oneself
RyeZuul@reddit
Turns out kids don't know shit, so they need to go to school where they then pre-emptively punish each other for knowing shit.
thejazzassassin@reddit
Go and read the DM comments. Prepare to be terrified. People with no semblance of logic or critical thinking spouting misspelled nonsense.
Then think that 50% of people are probably more stupid than that.
Atlantis3311@reddit
I think like this website - it’s mostly bots.
lewis56500@reddit
I’m baffled by this thread. This trend started to reverse when I was in school (7 years ago) in my experience. At least to some extent, the ‘popular’ kids were definitely academically well performing. If you did badly and didn’t have an alternative (like going to a trade) people looked down on you. Obviously not universally true but it was something I definitely noticed, especially compared to what my dad said school was like when he went in the 80s.
vegan_voorhees@reddit
In my school (mid-90s), they divided the entire year group into 'Population 1' and 'Population 2', stating it was a fair split, but evident that all the troublemakers and 'less academically gifted' kids went into 2, to get them out of the way of the achievements of those in 1. I scraped into Pop 1.
bddn_85@reddit
Because the true purpose of education is largely to disempower the student, so that they depend on the system and become reliable.
dbxp@reddit
The west values being unconventional or a rebel, you see this throughout marketing. In education this happens to manifest as kids being anti intellectual.
bitter-literati@reddit
John Lydon/Johnny Rotten -"You learn to expect nothing. You get nothing. You start off in school and they take your soul away. They take your brains away. You're not allowed to have an opinion that differs from theirs."
I've always looked at this as a quote about the educational body and the student body. Growing up in the late 70s/early 80s you realised that being intelligent was crushed by your peers and the system itself wanted you to work in a factory (even though manufacturers were closing all around).
At careers day I expressed an interest in writing/journalism and was quickly shut down with "that's not going to happen" and told to consider a trade position instead. Being top of the class in English literature and Language didn't give you a chance to have wanted more.
And yes, Dear Reader, it crushed my dreams.
r2d2rigo@reddit
This kind of anti intellectualism is almost explicitly British. You don't see it in other European countries.
Idustriousraccoon@reddit
It’s rampant in America (I know, not British, or European, and the difference between what we call public and private schools here is VAST. It’s the difference between being around peers who think that being smart and doing well in school is cool, and those who think failing in school is cool. It sounds insane, but it is so real. I dated someone from the deep south who believed, as all of her friends did, that “geeks and dorks” had no athletic ability. I could only pick my jaw up off the ground. Going pro in athletics is the literal plan for far more families than you want it to be…and they don’t have a backup plan. I explained slowly that we are just as athletic, but since we have options, the number of us who would be willing to risk life, limb and grey matter to play a sport for a few years are few and far between. We make more money than pro athletes and can still calculate the tip at dinner. She didn’t appreciate the joke. The relationship didn’t last. But that moment stayed with me. Makes it easier to understand how politicians here got the votes to cripple the public education system from the people who needed it the most.)
__scan__@reddit
To be fair, it doesn’t sound like a very good joke purely on technical and an aesthetic grounds. You’d need excellent rhythm and cadence in your delivery, plus exactly the right set up for it to land.
Idustriousraccoon@reddit
It wasn’t a joke… it was a response to a shocking claim by an exceedingly ignorant and misinformed group of people…the joke was just the dinner tip…. I tried to lighten the tone a little…but that wasn’t really the point…
amoryamory@reddit
Honestly I think it's an Anglo culture thing. But I don't know the rest of the world as well
donalmacc@reddit
I grew up in Ireland - it’s identical. I work for a Spanish company and it absolutely exists there too.
Terrible-Group-9602@reddit
It's certainly deep rooted in the USA.
OrdinaryJMJ@reddit
Individualistic vs collectivist cultures, I think.
harvestofmind@reddit
Many Germanic speaking nations are individualistic. However anti-intellectualism is not pervasive as it is in the UK in those countries
Odd-Wafer-4250@reddit
Yes. Hofstede's six dimensions of culture.
Matrixgypsy@reddit
Ah yes, I see you are a man of culture as well.
bad_ed_ucation@reddit
Hmm I do think it's more complicated than this. I'm not sure that prizing individualism (which, I would argue, isn't as much of a core Western value as some make it out to be) is necessarily the same as embracing anti-intellectualism. In my job here in Oxford I see that the attributes that young people here aspire to most are intellect and being able to thrive under pressure, but to do so in a carefree type of way where individuality and authenticity are just as important. Back home in south Wales - a poor part of the country - there were very different attitudes. So I think it's a lot more to do with class and geography than anything else in the UK.
dbxp@reddit
I'm sure it is more complex than this, it's just two sentences, it would be weird if it wasn't. Its just something that struck me, that parents complain about their kids being rebellious but then watch any BMW advert and it doesn't exactly promote following the rules of the road. Adverts are a reflection of what people aspire to.
When I've been to east Asia I've seen a lot more performative intellectualism than in Europe. It exists here too but not in the same scale. Art galleries in Japan in particular were very much the place to be seen at. This sort of performance is just another demonstration of aspiration, the same way Americans will drive trucks because they aspire to this rough handyman type of vibe.
In Oxford you're obviously going to get a large selection bias. You've not just selected for middle class people but particularly intellectual ones.
barejokez@reddit
I must say, I see it differently. For me it's more rooted in the class system, and a certain pride about your status, even if it's comparatively "low".
If you grew up in a mining town (going back a few years here!). 9/10 boys in the school expected to follow their dads in the pits. The other 1/10 may aspire to go to university and become a doctor or something. But in setting out that goal, the other 9/10 kids see it as an insult - you think you're better than us, too smart to dig? After all, you don't need a degree down the mine. That manifests itself as anti-imtellectualism.
Responsible_Oil_5811@reddit
Which is fine until the mine closes
barejokez@reddit
Oh totally! I'm not saying it's a good thing. Social mobility is a massively good thing, and kids should never assume that they are predetermined to follow in their parent's footsteps.
Free education is an incredible thing that a lot of people, including most of the kids receiving it, completely take for granted. If someone gives you something, make the most of it kids.
GoldenSonOfColchis@reddit
Especially drugs, they're expensive!
Gazcobain@reddit
Having spent nearly a decade teaching in an ex-mining town, the mentality that "my dad / uncle will get me a job" is still massive, despite that not really existing any more.
Ambitious_League4606@reddit
Because half the students are thick.
pintsized_baepsae@reddit
But it doesn't? Some countries do, some don't.
I went to school in Germany, and being smart and doing well in school is seen as not just necessary but desirable. Of course you get teased a bit if you're the number one student, but in most cases (not all, because bullies exist everywhere) doing well in school is seen as good and desirable. People don't take it well if you're snooty about it and completely refuse to help or never ever share your notes, but if you just go about your life doing well in school / being booksmart, then usually they won't.
And this carries through all tiers, from lower-tier secondary schools to A-level schools. There are other issues, but saying anti-intellectualism carries through the entire West is factually not correct.
dbxp@reddit
Yeah, fair, I think it is linked to how individualist a culture is. Germany tends to lean more into tradition than the UK
PatriarchPonds@reddit
But it doesn't. This is not a fundamental value. It's a marketable value, but not the key one. Conformity is a fundamental value, and anti intellectualism is often more (Intuitively) about making people fit in.
pintsized_baepsae@reddit
That point about conformity is an interesting one. I just said it in my own reply, but I went to school in Germany and being anti-intellectual wasn't cool when I was in school, and it certainly wouldn't be cool today either.
I wonder if the lack of conformity plays a role in that. We never had school uniforms, we still don't; some schools have dress codes (basically no spaghetti straps, no skirts that are too short, with 'too short' usually not actually defined), but a lot of them don't.
And a lot of the time, at least when I was in school, the 'unconventional' kids / the alt kids (be they goth, emo, punk or just someone doing their very own thing) were the star students. It's almost like being booksmart was a small part of rebellion against what everyone was doing.
WowzersTrousers0@reddit
Thankyou for one of the only decent attempts to answer in the whole thread!
Absolutely amazing I had to scroll down this far.
lessthandave89@reddit
Because schools in the UK aren't for education, they're for conditioning. You have to display a willingness to learn off your own back and it's rarely encouraged until you get to college/university Coincidentally about the same point intellectualism stops being ridiculed.
Schools want to make kids into good workers, not creative thinkers. Hence them losing their shit when one kid has the audacity to get a different haircut.
dwair@reddit
Going back years now I can remember the secondary modern model of schooling being described as "a holding pen for factory fodder".
I can't remember who said it but it's one of the most act and succinct descriptions of the British educational system I have ever heard... Only we don't have many factories any more.
Atlantis3311@reddit
5% of British children STILL continued to go to Secondary Moderns between 1975-2015.
Lazy-Letterhead-7203@reddit
only with the lumpenproles.
You won't see this in selective Independents or Grammar schools. Why? Because they select.
Atlantis3311@reddit
It’s a national discrace that 5% of British children from 1975-2015 were forced through circumstance to go to secondary modern schools.
brightdionysianeyes@reddit
This is exactly the problem.
People will say "only with X" like 90% of the country doesn't go to a non selective comprehensive school.
If you don't see the problem with economically commandeering the best teaching talent in the country for the purpose of teaching 10% of the students, and how it inherently perpetuates the core issue of the other 90% not being as good.......
illikeshorts@reddit
Others may disagree but my experience of school, and much of British culture was a slightly different. Being smart and getting good grades isn’t uncool, but trying hard at school, or at just about anything, is. You can be smart, but you also have to be nonchalant. Having said that I think gen z have a lot more respect for grinding than the gen x / millennials did back in the day.
Safe-Purchase2494@reddit
I can remember reading particular UK comics backing in the 80's when I was between the ages of say 7 and 11. The comics were Buster, Whoopee, Whizzer and Chips, Beano, Dandy, Beezer etc. They always portrayed academic kids as swots. And they were either some sort of villain for just being 'swots' or fair game. From the same period TV shows like Grange Hill did something not a million miles away. Zammo and Jonah were as thick as two short plank's but were center stage as some sort of underachieving 'lovable rogues'.
FeelingDegree8@reddit
Ask yourself who benefits from this. There's your answer.
gustinnian@reddit
For some it is seen as a betrayal of their class but for many it is a 'front' and secretly many are trying to cloak the fact that they are actually putting in the effort. The 'coolest' kids are the ones who manage to succeed by sailing through without any apparent effort.
BlackJackKetchum@reddit
In our entire society. Only, AFAIK, in these parts is the word ‘intellectual’ an insult.
ListeningForWhispers@reddit
While I think we do have unique problems with success and intelligence being looked down on, there’s a reason the intellectuals and academics tend to get scapegoated as the cause of all of societies ills during authoritarian regimes.
Sneering elites, in their ivory tower who only think they know how the world works is a powerful rhetorical device.
Bounty_drillah@reddit
'The intelligentsia'.
pajamakitten@reddit
That's too smart. You're one of them!
PressureBeautiful515@reddit
It's also because a regime has to eliminate potential threats, and the next opposition leader is likely to come from the glasses-wearing segment of the population (not a joke, the Khmer Rouge literally ordered the execution of anyone who wore spectacles.)
Moppo_@reddit
And the first waves of people to flee a regime tend to cause what is known as a "brain drain" in that nation. The more academic people have read about this stuff, and they know that if they disagree they have to get out before it's too late.
drunkpostin@reddit
The sheer hatred and spite people have towards success in this country is genuinely bizarre. On r/ukjobs, I believe, a software engineer working in London was (rightfully) complaining about his £42,000 salary, and people were seething at him in the comments for being spoiled and out of touch lmao. So many subtilely angry comments like “I’d kill to make that much at _ age…” on top of all the jealous rage too lol. He’d easily be making $125k-$150k in the US. Possibly even over $200k in a big city. Not to mention having much less tax. He’s right to be pissed off, but because he’s not scraping the poverty line he’s an out of touch middle class prick apparently.
I know Redditors are especially entitled and jealous so probably not a great representation, but it still goes to show it’s definitely an issue here.
Responsible_Oil_5811@reddit
There definitely is some truth to the stereotype, although at least in Canada (my country of origin and where I went to Uni) most academics are generally polite.
nali_cow@reddit
"Britain has had enough of experts"
GoodByeMrCh1ps@reddit
Nigel?
Is that you?
OneCatch@reddit
Nope, they're quoting Michael Gove. The guy who was literally and unfortunately in charge of the education system for several years under Cameron.
FatBloke4@reddit
I agree, OP. It's why my son is at a grammar school. In a normal primary school, he was among the smarter kids in the class - many of his male peers were watching Andrew Tate and fighting, while some of the girls were making twerking videos on TikTok. It seems that many parents simply don't care.
The concept of studying hard so you can have a good job is not alien to the UK. But it seems that many people associate improving themselves and aiming for a better future as some sort of betrayal of their class. I don't understand it at all.
YeahOkIGuess99@reddit
I won my year group's "Best Effort Award" or something in 1st year, which sounds patronising but it was actually more or less the equivalent of the "Best student" award, worded daftly. I thought it was pretty cool, however EVERYONE mocked me for weeks afterwards, so much so that after the summer holidays I actively attempted to not be as good. The positive encouragement from teachers was no way enough to counteract the relentless ribbing from everyone.
It is frankly insane.
skronk61@reddit
Someone being perceived as superior to yourself in an environment that’s supposed to level the playing field is always going to cause bad feelings.
That’s the cost of living in a human society
mrwalrus901@reddit
Maybe in comprehensives. This isn’t really the culture in Grammar and fee paying schools.
PineappleCubeKicks@reddit
At grammar school you’d occasionally get some eye-rolling towards the overly eager or pretentious students in class but generally it wasn’t ‘uncool’ to be smart. It was kind of the opposite where everyone was competing with each other and trying to get the best grades and get into the best unis because that was the legacy of the school so to fail at that was almost not an option.
AonghusMacKilkenny@reddit
My mate went to quite a rough comprehensive with me Year 7 - 11 and then a grammar school for sixth form and said the same thing. The difference sounds really stark.
Responsible_Oil_5811@reddit
Shirley Williams converted her daughter’s grammar school into a comprehensive and promptly enrolled her in a fee paying school. “Rules for thee but not for me!”
brightdionysianeyes@reddit
Shirley Williams?
What's your point here?
brightdionysianeyes@reddit
I agree with what you are saying, however that in itself implies that it is in fact a pressing cultural issue for the country, given that comprehensive attendees make up 90% of the population.
trippykitsy@reddit
Thats a weird take. Being smart has always been a liked trait. I think the issue is if youre seen as unsmart, teachers and parents hate you, so you take it out on the smarter kids.
dazedan_confused@reddit
Predominantly the media, the "cool" kids are seen as sporty and unenthusiastic about achievement, and the nerds are perceived as being hard working.
Shows like Dennis the Menace, Horrid Henry, the Cramp Twins and the like tend to enforce the stereotype, but don't point out that the kids they're glorifying in those instances are more often than not suffering behavioural issues that we're only now trying to address.
Inevitable-Band1631@reddit
For me education is really the only way out of poverty, my daughter is the only one in my family to go to university and get a degree. I was very poor growing up my parents were very poor growing up. My daughter was also poor growing up. But I worked hard and things improved a bit financially and I encouraged her to go to university. I also split up from their abusive dad when she was 5. He didn't want her to go to uni as he would have to keep paying child support AH.
SamVimesBootTheory@reddit
I don't really think it's anything new, I remember people getting picked on (myself included) for being 'swots' or 'teacher's pets'
(I wouldn't have even classed myself as either, I was just a quiet kid who was seen as 'well behaved and mature for my age' by adults and generally liked learning stuff)
zenpyramid@reddit
Yea, it's a tale as old as the hills I'm afraid. Ignorant people fear knowledge because it can disrupt their simulacrum, and they don't know how to defend against it. So they despise it and work against it, they fear experts, they present alternative facts. Anything to avoid looking at themselves.
It's not just Britain, and it's not just now...
SensitivePotato44@reddit
You probably deserve a prize if you can figure it out. It was the same 40 years ago and probably 140 years ago.
Bounty_drillah@reddit
Insecurity, a lot of poorly educated people believe educated people think they're better than them, so they aim to drag them down to their level.
drunkpostin@reddit
This seems to be a very large factor in my experience. Insecurity’s not really the right word, because that implies someone doesn’t want to be the way they are whereas these people are genuinely proud to be simple and ‘grounded’ so to speak. I think it’s less to do with jealousy and more to do with anger at more intellectual/academic people, not because they think they’re inferior, but because they think that they think they’re inferior, even when there’s no evidence to suggest so. I had this dynamic with my siblings in my childhood. Anything that is out of their immediate understanding is seen as offensive in some way. Impossible to have a real relationship with people like that until they grow out of it.
Bounty_drillah@reddit
Thanks, you put it into words a lot better than me.
Appropriate-Divide64@reddit
Anti intellectualism had been on the rise since 2015. We're now seeing the children of dumbasses affected by this coming through the schooling system and passing it on to their kids.
PortPiscarilius@reddit
2015? It was very much rife when I went through secondary school ten years prior to that.
Nurhaci1616@reddit
It's a combination of "crabs in a bucket" (somebody being a big swot and talking about being a doctor means they're taking notions and they think they're so much better than us) and a general tendency among kids to be kinda shitty about differences.
It's the same reason why kids, even without any sort of religious justification, will bully LGBTQ kids, why autistic kids are big targets, why kids with unusual or uncommon interests are targets, why foreign kids or those with a different religion are targets, and so on ad nauseum.
dontlikeourchances@reddit
Being academically strong is highly valued within schools.
They get all the praise, all the prizes. At my daughter's school the same 10-15% of pupils walk around with stripes sewn onto their jumpers showing academic awards. Most have 0-3 stripes in Year 10, the most academic will have 20-30.
In her cohort it has been the same children every year at prize giving since she was in Y1.
I often find a lack of empathy in the academically gifted. What they find easy others find very hard. You are already in an environment where what you are gifted in is rewarded. Those who are good at other things like art, music, sport, physical activities, social skills, are sitting there day after day watching you get all the praise and rewards. A lot of people hate school, they will constantly be near the bottom of everything. Of course they won't have a positive experience.
PortPiscarilius@reddit
Yet it's pretty much never the gifted kids picking on the non-academic kids for being less talented, is it? It's the non-academic kids picking on the smart kids.
NickoDaGroove83297@reddit
I think it’s the thickos being jealous of the clever ones so they try to drag them down to their level. It’s really annoying because it holds a lot of people back, especially boys.
DuntmatterReally@reddit
The idea that you should "know your place" is very deeply ingrained across British culture.
Anti-intellectualism is one manifestation of that.
For almost 1000 years every monarch has been a descendant of one person. The people at the top have had a very long time to influence culture and society.
This may not always have been done deliberately, or even in ways that suit them.
ballantynedewolf@reddit
In the UK there is a lot of working class pride, and a great deal of value placed on family and community. That community is perhaps rightly worried that a member who pursues academic excellence will leave the community and value instead money and status. It's selfish, because if everyone did their best, everyone would benefit, but it's an example of how a culture can be misguided.
Mental-Reference-719@reddit
The powers-to-become need their masses ignorant, and compliat
MinaretofJam@reddit
Yep. It’s always been a strong attitude especially in solidly working class areas, where most men traditionally went to work at hard, physical jobs like mining or the shipyards. I grew up in Sunderland and for boys, being a reader and clever was a no-no. Being a “hard man” - good at fighting and sport - was a genuine “achievement.” It’s an old hangover from the 20th century class system. “University! Not for the like of you and me, kidda.” Even though the old jobs have long gone, the attitude still remains. It’s a poverty of expectations and also a poverty of experience in many cases. Certainly with my cohort at school.
Sure-Exchange9521@reddit
I'm not sure if my high school experience was vastly different from the rest of the comments, but in my school, the cleverest students were the most popular/sportiest/ kindest lol
hoverside@reddit
I went to a comprehensive and it was similar, most of the really popular kids were also among the smartest and hardest working. I appreciate it varies but it's not the case that every school or even every non-selective school is anti-intellectual.
explax@reddit
Yeah I don't resonate with the comments in this post one bit.
TuMek3@reddit
Sportiest is the key word here.
explax@reddit
To be honest I don't think in my school it was. It was a state school but in fact there was quite a bit of competition in the top sets to do well. Many of the 'bad' kids werent in the lower sets. I don't think anyone got bullied for doing well, although you possibly may be called out for doing annoying stuff like reminding the teacher that they hadn't taken in the homework, asking loads of questions or always putting your hand up first to answer questions.
Great-Situation3146@reddit
china happens to be run more meritocratically than the u.k. or arguably the entire capitalist eurocentric world, that's why lol -- success is disattached and autonomous from intellectual capacity in the latter (even if we lie to ourselves about the original myth of working class sin and capitalist intellectual virtue, as marx puts it in his chapter on primitive accumulation in capital) rather than being the actual outcome of one's own determination and hard work after being provided equal opportunity for flourishing
Great-Situation3146@reddit
i think it's easy to pin the cause on "cultural differences" (i.e. confucian values or on working class anti-intellectualism as a cultural norm) but we need to remember that education and its cultural value always develops out of a particular social, material, and political context - you're more likely to care about education as a means of self-improvement in a system where you genuinely feel a sense of control over your future. i'd wager that prior to the socialist reform of education (and socialist reform generally) implemented during the 20th and 21st centuries a majority of china's population (the rural peasantry back then) likely didn't have the most favorable views of education or intellectuals/intellectualism compared to now. i'd also wager that if universal education had been implemented in that context, there would have still been a heavy current of anti-intellectualism (possibly even more than the british working class if we consider china's semi-feudal state then) among the chinese peasantry. the u.k.'s system promotes the idea that education is a viable means to social and personal improvement through pointing towards exceptional cases but actively demonstrates the opposite through the reality that most people's life trajectories are more or less fixed under the capitalist system. - if you're born poor, you're likely to stay poor, and vice versa. why would you care about education when basically everything around you tells you that you don't matter and that your circumstances are basically fixed, because they operate under a system that necessarily requires most of its population to be poor.?
SouthernAide2351@reddit
Id go further and say UK culture generally has an aversion to actively trying and putting effort in, in most things in life. I'd say generally a lot of british people want to just be bang average and fit in. If you dress or look different or act slightly different, people will make comments and jokes.
Fair_Machine_3700@reddit
Crabs in a bucket mentality
strawbebbymilkshake@reddit
It was in schools 20+ years ago from my experience and I’m sure older peers will attest to the same. Learning was never “cool”, being good at schoolwork got you made fun of (but also asked for the answers to schoolwork). The curtains were always “just blue”.
I think the attitudes have definitely become worse, though, and I see anti-intellectualism spreading like cancer.
drunkpostin@reddit
This pisses me off to no end. You’re not clever for only ever taking things at surface level and flat-out refusing to think anymore on it. There’s a “it’s not that deep” and “bro’s yapping 💀” ‘trend’ with teens now too. Sounds mean but if someone says something like that unironically, I immediately disregard them as effectively a nonentity. I’m not saying they don’t have any sentience, but they don’t ever display it so there’s no point engaging with them in the same way you would for real people because you’ll just be met with canned copypaste scripts from TikTok comment sections.
I have no idea why stripping all individuality and depth from your personality is such an appealing prospect for so many adolescents.
spacespaces@reddit
Of course. Your generation are now the parents. Do you think they take seriously any concerns from teachers? Or just say "school's not for your," teachers are jobsworths, and Clarkson failed his O-levels.
WhatTheF00t@reddit
I think most parents do care, the problem is that the ones that don't are the ones raising the trouble makers, so they're the parents teachers are interacting with on a regular basis.
ConstructionLive516@reddit
It's simple, people are jealous of the smart kid. It shows them how much they suck so they feel better making fun of the smart kid.
Happens in the adult world too because quiet achievers make people look like shit in front of their boss.
Conscious-Resist-662@reddit
There is in university too. Lots of good answers here I agree with. I have someone I know let's leave it there haha young smart from proper working class area like what people are cliche working class became we know working class is broad. Daily Mail readers ideas of working class place.
This person is a female of it matters and smart enough to learn early that you have to be a way to get along be it makes friends etc but she was gutted when she went uni at first.
Not verbatim but she was lamenting that she thought that at uni she could be herself more. And she really can in many ways until it comes challenging certain thoughts and beliefs. Like it's hard to type because next what I type people will prove her point a bit. Your with us or against us. Is no room for discussion or nuence. Like look tommy Robinson I'm gonna throw myself right under a bus has some very valid points and he totally exposed the BBC who I always love and parts still do. Three busses about to hit me.
He is also a racist who takes money from dodgy areas I am told, has doxed and caused issues to wrong people and no apology will stop the hurt it's probably still caused. He as far as I know is involved in a lot shady stuff and really picks some targets that he knows he can hurt some violently well. I don't know too much activity beyond a documentary a student union in Oxford? Presentation and the rest is showing his misdeeds. Jordan Peterson that guy was everywhere and at first was alot he said good and helpful and I interesting to myself because he would sit discuss with people challenge each other and he genuinely was processing others challenging and his view point on some long form debates. He is also a absolute nut bag it turns on out in many ways like many..... And seems principles are fluid especially the friends and positions you take.
Anyway my point being is the uni person and I've not been but I experienced similar smaller. Was like it's just like school . Many classes you don't dare debate or move from the line too far. And is so many verity of people who she gets mix with and that's great but is no room in places even there now.
I had a religious studies teacher, you can guess by that maybe where I may be in UK haha. Who really went hard on sins was anti drinking which he was right about and gambling and yadda to a brimstone level. My first job I worked opposite a bookies he walked out with a pack a crate of cafferys and my nieve self jaw dropped haha.
I dunno if that's everywhere or even makes sense to people. I think from both sides of let's face it now it's two sides... It always shown to be anyway do that or can. It's so partisan both ways and that's what I get from things. This is just my interpretation.
Just to finish I talked about polirising people to make my point about finding out about people and who are and having issues with. Most but agreeing with parts. Drag story time I thought was an amazing idea I saw one that bothered me with the sexualization of the get up which I felt was too much. I never saw anything else that made me think deag time had any sexualization at all.
It just makes me worry for the future generations, I don't know the answer and maybe I'm totally wrong but if I am tell me and I'll listen and think on it and try consider and challenge my position, I'll try learn and challenge either side. Like ok some things are not right I know this, ice, faith killings yadda. I'm talking being able discuss is even too much now and this whole thing I was typing was leading too my whole point.
This it's self to me is a form of what op asked. Again maybe I'm wrong but I come reddit alot now because as partisan as sub reddits can be is alot of people who will listen to each other more than anywhere I have seen. Anyway. Sorry for going on and hopefully people see my answer in good faith. Because now I'm feeling I'm being wrong somehow saying what I've said and people will be ok gammon or what not.
Conscious-Resist-662@reddit
Tl Dr we are losing the ability to challenge each other in education and life and our own thoughts maybe and it's becoming hurtful to our intellectual growth possibly?
Adeptus_Astartez@reddit
Social media and reality TV. Kids should be banned from both until 18.
thepoliteknight@reddit
British youth media like the Beano didn't help. How many of those characters were troublemakers made out to be heroes. Dennis the menace was an anti intellectual bully who picked on the "swots". The bash street kids were thick kids who always got one over on their teacher. All future factory fodder we were encouraged to idolise.
In contrast Bart Simpson was a troublemaker, but rarely succeeded in his schemes, and often faced the consequences of his own actions. His future was always shown in flash forwards to be a dead beat with nothing going for him.
Estebesol@reddit
Honestly, this is a factor in why I want my child to attend a Jewish school.
his_savagery@reddit
Because hurr durr books are gay
CaterpillarLoud8071@reddit
The working classes, particularly men, have a sense of pride in remaining working class - going into the same career as their dad, working with their hands. An anti-intellectualist culture is inherent in this because British schools involve mostly female teachers, sitting down and learning about academic subjects for the sake of the subject rather than real life use. It's not real life for these kids and their parents don't trust it.
We haven't made any attempt to actually appeal to those working class boys. We could do so either through teaching academic subjects in a way they will find useful, allowing more and earlier focus on technical subjects, or through more working class male teachers as role models (not just their PE and woodwork teacher).
The old grammar vs secondary modern schools at least attempted this by sending the top kids to learn academics and giving everyone else a more technical education working closely with the community.
Ancient-Duty7481@reddit
I grew up north england w parents as factory workers, now on 6 figures at London bank. I would say its actually not just school but society and most importantly family. You normally have to leave the poorer area to make money and get better education - so everyone around you will dissuade you and you’ll have to build a new life somewhere else
miserable_jesowka@reddit
Intellect has no use in the working classes.
Their class is required to do the hard work and be the first to be sacrificed
It suits the higher classes to maintain this balance
The british working classes have learnt to know their place and anyone stepping outside of that is a danger to the class cohesion
Bit dramatic maybe but it sure is in the interests of the ruling class to keep the lower classes stupid
Think_Ad_4717@reddit
Bollocks they enforce it and are bigger snobs hate anything different then anyone else.
LordAnchemis@reddit
You went to the 'wrong' school
Eli_Regis@reddit
Crabs in a bucket mentality
SojournerInThisVale@reddit
It starts with the teachers. I’ve met very few teachers who are truly intellectually curious
StaticUsernamesSuck@reddit
Idk why, but just to add my own experience, I was literally called "boffin" more than my own fucking name for basically my entire fucking school years. It wasn't meant kindly.
Cheap-Razzmatazz-225@reddit
if you are trying to make china out to be better than anywhere you have failed
r_Coolspot@reddit
Shut up square.
seanv507@reddit
i dont agree with that characterisation.
i feel like hard work is 'looked down' on, you pretend like it comes naturally. ie achievement good, but make it look like natural talent rather than working hard
SMTRodent@reddit
It's at least a century-old prejudice. The words 'swot' and 'swotty' are old insults based on this anti-intellectualism. Those words date back to the 1920s.
How that prejudice came about, I have no idea, but it's not new.
Cartographer_Hopeful@reddit
It isn't new, it was the same when I was in school and the same when my mum was in school etc etc
Mangeytwat@reddit
I'll repackaged your question because it's the best way to answer it.
Why do stupid people dislike people who arent stupid?
geekroick@reddit
Looks like we got ourselves a reader!
Folkmar_D@reddit
So... Nerds are bullied again?
Professional_Elk_489@reddit
British respect "effortless excellence". If you are perceived to be trying too hard or studying too much that's worse than someone who is just naturally smart and successful. So hide your effort
Tigertotz_411@reddit
Its worth noting that even if this is the case, it doesnt necessarily impact on peoples' perceptions of those in charge. Unlike a certain country, Britain might have had some terrible, ignorant, people in charge, but they've tended not to be complete blithering idiots. We do seem to expect that people who rule over us are able to string a sentence together, even if the sentence is meaningless.
We seem to quite respect a good command of the English language.
Balldogs@reddit
Because the terminally thick get irrationally angry at anyone smarter. As a kid I got used to hearing their angry mantra of "You think you're better than me, don't you?" as they started a fight with me. They got angry because I could read better than them. Then they got angry because I knew stuff that had been taught in the class when they were dicking about being dumb fucks. Then they got super angry when I learned how to beat the shit out of them, so they couldn't even hold that against me.
It's basically the intellectual equivalent of small man energy. Always has been, always will be.
Rafterbloke@reddit
As a working class at secondary school in the 80s, that read voraciously and had a wide vocabulary, I used to get 'have you swallowed a dictionary' all the time. You kept your head down to avoid any aggro.
DreamingofBouncer@reddit
There’s a very strict theme of class and not stepping outside your class and bettering yourself.
You see it in the idea of working class people feeling that those from their class who do well in education thinking they are too good for their own class.
The middle class think education is important but will be snotty about working class people bettering themselves and those who are in business will think they are better than those working in education
The upper class are also suspicious of those who are educated unless it’s in something completely irrelevant like classics (not saying classics aren’t important)
layland_lyle@reddit
Because our inclusive school system is the problem and is just an excuse for the government to save money.
We need grammar schools for academic kids, as kids bounce off each other, and a school full of academic kids will thrive more than the same kids in a general school. We already have state selective schools for sports, music and the arts, but not academic, so for academic kids to thrive they have to go private or suffer.
malasic@reddit
It is like this in all English-speaking countries and has been for at least 50 years. It's a cultural thing. I don't know why.
sep_nehtar@reddit
Well back in a days you were to get a long with smart people so they can help and yes surprise they were normal people like anyone else ta da
tfbrian@reddit
It's cultural. But I wouldn't describe it as anti-intellectualism but being against taking yourself too seriously. Being clever, witty and high achieving are highly valued but only if the person can exercise the correct etiquette.
Don't constantly come out with the right answer in class but quietly get a good test result in the exam. More importantly you must not do anything to make people think that you think you are better than everyone else. Doing well should be distinguished from bragging. English culture has a significantly low tolerance for what constitutes bragging.
Tldr British schools aren't intellectual but anti the perception that someone thinks they are better than others.
Willie-the-Wombat@reddit
Depends on the school. I went to a state school in a pretty well off area. All the cool kids were pretty good in class and being smart was not looked down upon, being popular was largely about looking good, being good at sport and having wealthy parents. The ones looked down on were the “chavs”, who maybe at another school would have been the top of the hierarchy.
Psittacula2@reddit
To touch on Asian values and culture,
* More collectivist and shared social values so being successful is more universally acknowledged. In the West individualism is higher which can be more liberating but can in the case of the young with less parenting guidance be corrupting in media.
* Asian culture is based on family being the welfare net so the family structures more to push members to contribute and compete and succeed and that means making money via salary via jobs which require intellectual attainment.
Thomas Sowell contrasted cultures as the big difference between various groups in the USA Rednecks and Black Communities which were low in performance along with the breakdown of family in the case of black communities from the 60’s onwards.
So we can see successful criteria and unsuccessful criteria from Asia and from the USA. How does this apply to the UK?
UK has deprived areas eg coal mine towns, seaside towns and benefits safety welfare culture. This deprived culture sets in and low aspiration low resources eg teacher turn over and bad behaviour increases the problem of attainment and attitude in schools.
Traditional working class in trades who may be successful but ignore school in some cases, so messing around is more fun getting the bare minimum before going off to real work post 16…
Caribbean vs African you see difference in results due to loss of SOCIAL CAPITAL in the Caribbean more strongly except where you have Christian Religious Caribbean and hence family integrity vs loss of social capital via family break down and decay as a great example of cross comparison.
Brain rot from culture in the West does not help eg social media and celebrity as role models, Tate can’t light a candle to that by orders of magnitude x1,000 and yet the media never even see it for eg. But that is after the main damage to the Family and Social Capital ie culture around families (Sowell).
Not all the above is universal there is complexity and nuance eg a deprived school I worked at, the most intelligent kid in year 9 who was very mature for his age, got on with practically anyone and was respected for being smart, decent and just a good person.
jxrzz@reddit
Tbf this is increasingly changing, we're heading in the same direction. I recently graduated as a doctor and I went to a pretty shit school, so many of my former classmates reached out to congratulate me and were genuinely super respectful.
Also on social media am seeing a lot more push towards getting into good unis and getting good jobs, and almost 'bullying' of less intellectual people e.g. jokes targeted at people who went to bad unis etc (which I do not think is right at all obviously).
Bitter-Policy4645@reddit
It's crab bucket syndrome in action
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality#:\~:text=Crab%20mentality%2C%20also%20known%20as%20crab%20theory%2C,directly%20impact%20those%20trying%20to%20stop%20them.
Kitchen_Procedure641@reddit
I wish it was just schools. The amount of people I speak to who see knowing about something as a negative is terrifying. Knowledge is just seen as a bad thing by far too many people.
Stan-Macho@reddit
If I try to start a conversation in the office about something more than gossip or what everyone's having for dinner, I get called a nerd, autistic, etc.
Comparatively, my colleagues from foreign countries love having interesting debates
Kitchen_Procedure641@reddit
I don't find it makes any difference where people are from sadly. 🤷♂️
SelectOpportunity518@reddit
Lots of good answers but the top level one that causes every other reason is: because it benefits the ruling class (like it always has). Billionaires make more money and are kept safer if you don't know how and why they exist, and the tools they use to hoard wealth at the expense of the workforce. Media & entertainment (bread and circus) ensures this status quo is maintained even in a world where access to education has never been better.
Who are generally at the forefront of social movements and advocates for social change? Students.
An educated workforce hurts profits.
Pizzagoessplat@reddit
I'm confused. Is this a thing now?
Sad_Golf_1154@reddit
It's how the oppressor controls the masses.
mysterylemon@reddit
Because the parents are thick as shit so why would they encourage their kids to do well?
They did just fine with no GCSEs on their minimum wage job claiming every benefit going so why does their kid need to do better?
xTrustMe@reddit
It’s not cool to be school
IntelligentAnybody55@reddit
I love being smart, if you call me a nerd, I will insult your entire existence
Tao626@reddit
I always felt it was due to the popular media personalities among kids not only not being academic, but in the case of rappers and such, they glamorised how being thick as fuck (or "street smart") made them successful (even though this is often not true).
With a lot of Asian personalities, it's often made quite clear how they have and are successful in part due to their education.
Enough_Document2995@reddit
I went to a shit hole school built like a prison with security gates everywhere. It's a crabs in a bucket mentality. Chav wankers would do anything to keep you at the lowest level, unless you had some talent that made you cool and they generally left you alone or even supported you. I got a bit of both, so the wankers turned out to be alright, and the other wankers remained wankers.
My life there was hell, and if I worked hard in a lesson it was likely my work would be stolen and ripped up.
Part of me thinks it's them feeling insecure and trying to keep people in their circle. My ex girlfriend was like that too, said she would break up with me if I went to uni because I'd come back with an accent and act superior to everyone. Stopped me going for years...
I try not to judge too harshly, these people have a lot of their own problems as I did and they don't want to see their friends leave, and they definitely don't want to see their bully victims succeed. And they themselves accept hopelessness which I think is part learned helplessness and part reflection of their family. If their dad isn't around or is but violent or not doing well, or their mum is a narcissistic psycho they just accept that they won't get anywhere.
Takes until they're about 25 to grow out of it and actually try. Not all but I'd say most eventually do alright.
robster9090@reddit
All the popular kids in my school where the ones in top sets . I’m 35
MechanicFit2686@reddit
I don't know if it's changed in the 20 years since I left school but getting good grades was definitely not cool. Being good at sports got you social status. Getting good grades was 'gay' at a time when homophobic bullying was rampant.
accountforadvice99@reddit
People in this thread are looking for nuance that a fair few of the people they are discussing are unable to see themselves. They dont want to change and enjoy saying everything isnt a big deal; its deeply ingrained into the culture and i dont really think us talking over this when they genuinely dont care changes anything. We know there are various mitigating factors but the very conversation being taken place will atypically only elicit eye rolls and a hand waved disinterest.
codexonline84@reddit
The UK loves to champion the underdog, but conversely this can give rise to contempt of high achievers especially when pitched against each other as is often the case in state schools. Private schools don’t have so much of this problem because the idea of being an underdog when you are rich enough to pay for private school has less merit.
Huirong_Ma@reddit
Idiot parents make idiot children that in turn form idiot society and the cycle repeats itself.
AdOrdinary232@reddit
Is there? This isn’t anything I’ve seen.
Flimsy_Ad3446@reddit
British media (owned by billionaires) pushes HARD to spread anti-intellectualism, especially amongst the lower classes. They really do not want the proles to study and emancipate themselves.
This attitude is conspicuously absent in the schools attended by the rich.
kaylalouise_xo@reddit
See also the Republican party in the US encouraging their supporters not to send their children to "liberal woke colleges", while at the same time paying big money to get their own kids an elite education.
Dropped_Apollo@reddit
A friend of mine did an internship at the Daily Star. He wrote an article containing the word "scientist" and one of the sub-editors asked him to replace it with "boffin".
Flimsy_Ad3446@reddit
himit@reddit
It's always been an issue - I remember reading a quote from a merchant back in Tudor days, that they'd rather their son died than learnt to read.
In China, education and passing exams has always been the only way out of poverty - for centuries. Here, for a long time basically only the clergy could read.
Even Princess Diana was very poorly educated - her family feared she would be seen as unattractive if she was too smart. Queen Camilla left school at 14 or 15.
It's only very recently that education became seen as something important, and things are changing, but very, very slowly. Unfortunately the current economic crisis completely decimating the value of expensive degrees isn't going to help.
LionLucy@reddit
You’ve pointed out a gender difference in the middle and upper classes that only ended a generation ago - my dad’s family have all been army officers and academics, but most of the women left school at 16. (I went to uni and no one was surprised, in 2010, so that’s really not a thing now, the culture around that has really changed for the better)
pintsized_baepsae@reddit
That's so interesting. I've worked with a few VERY posh women, and they're all really highly educated – but the other day one of the managers at my job said that her mum going to uni was a minor scandal in their section of the (I assume*?) upper class. Never knew that girls being schooled past 16 was so unusual.
I genuinely would've thought at that social level, education would be treasured – but then again, I guess 16 was the age at which they'd enter finishing school...
*I have no idea how the upper and middle class are distinguished, but her father went to Harrow and her mother to an all girls' school in the same league. I'd assume that's upper class but not sure... her entire family tree is loaded, basically. No idea which school she went to, but it won't be any surprise that her degree's from Oxbridge 😅
kaylalouise_xo@reddit
The upper classes would never have thought about their daughters ever having to work - the goal for them was that they would marry a rich man, preferably one with a title, and live a life of luxury.
pintsized_baepsae@reddit
Yeah, my thinking was 'if she's well educated she'll be able to have intelligent conversations about a really broad range of topics' - like talking about the Greek tragedies in her classics degree or something 😅
Holden_Ford24@reddit
There’s large strain of anti-intellectualism in the UK, period.
It’s always been there to a degree, but sadly seems to getting a lot worse at the moment.
painteroftheword@reddit
Always been there.
Too many white working class people see ignorance as a virtue. They then get upset when other groups do better them academically and in the workplace and it invariably translates into racism and a victim mentality.
Was prevalent when I was at school 25 years ago, and still prevalent now. In one of my kids class only 26% of the students managed to read three times a week. That's pathetic.
The parents don't care. I've hear them outside the school gates complaining that they're expected to get their kids to do 15 mins of reading a few times a week.
When parents view education and aspiration with contempt, their children typically get the same attitude.
Isgortio@reddit
Idiots don't like seeing people do better than them.
Trick-Captain-143@reddit
In good schools, there is no such strain, excellent is celebrated
defectivetoaster1@reddit
I agree, at my school there was very much a culture of being deemed maybe a bit dim if you weren’t a straight A student but also most of my classmates would happily help each other learn content if they were “struggling” with anything. There wasn’t any real crabs in a bucket mentality, nearly everyone was trying to help others succeed
Richard__Papen@reddit
Cos we're a bit of a doss-about country that doesn't like to take things too seriously.
RunForrest234@reddit
Tommy Robinson
Dependent_Owl_5461@reddit
Drag everyone down, it's purposeful.
shysaver@reddit
The UK suffers heavily from tall poppy syndrome/crabs in a bucket mentality
It's been this way for decades and probably will never change.
UmlautsAndRedPandas@reddit
Having read through some of the comments and done some thinking, I think what no-one else has said yet is that nationwide our parenting style tends to be much more laissez-faire, and so kids are left to just play and figure things out for themselves.
They're not explicitly taught that education and learning for the sake of it is important and that it can be enjoyable, whereas in countries like China, parenting is far more hands-on and the parents make a point of impressing those values on their children from a much younger age, as well as instilling work ethic. And all of that has knock-on impacts on discipline.
Another nuance is that we don't have a centuries-old tradition of civil service examinations that, if you passed, got you a government job and could be used to climb the social ladder. Our oldest univerisites i.e. Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, Glasgow, St Andrews originally only taught Theology & Philosophy, Greek and Latin, so they prepared students for the Church. Meritocracy in secular society didn't really arrive until capitalism.
Glittering_Vast938@reddit
Often encouraged so as not to upset the status quo. Stay in your box as it were!
Aconite_Eagle@reddit
"so you can get a good career and not live in poverty but that's increasingly true of the UK now also." not really its now basically impossible to get a good job in the UK at all.
TomatoChomper7@reddit
Because kids are insecure. Othering is a way to protect themselves socially. Don’t pick on me, pick on Swotty, he’s not like us! He’s got ideas above his station!
Leicester1967@reddit
Having taught in a variety of schools, i would add the issue of anti-intellectualism and hating/bullying those who work hard, is in part a white working class issue. Having taught in majority South Asian schools, it was certainly a very different learning culture even though the students had similar socio-economic backgrounds.
SceneDifferent1041@reddit
You just have to sit at the school gates to see the problem. Smoking, excessive phone use, idling cars outside a primary.....
The parents are awful and the circle never ends
spyder_victor@reddit
Fuck off clean shirt
bl4h101bl4h@reddit
It's cool to know nothing.
Historical_Royal_187@reddit
Crab bucket, as Sir Terry put it
YetAnotherMia@reddit (OP)
I love his chocolate.
callumfrew97@reddit
Had the same problem in uk high school 15-20 years ago
Euphoric-Plenty-1603@reddit
It was the same in the 70s, as if you are betraying your working class culture by getting a good education and a non-manual job.
planeloise@reddit
In the UK the middle and working classes aspire to appearances of wealth.
I found in many places in Europe, people aspire to appearances of intellectualism. I've stayed in many friends and family homes and Airbnbs, and people decorate their homes to appear well read and cultured, even if they're not.
Informal-Formal-6766@reddit
Look up Paul Willis: Learning to labour. A really cool sociological exploration of this. Some of the videos are still on YouTube I think. Explains the mentality and reasons behind it.
Too_much_Colour@reddit
I opposite is more the case now. Students feel ALOT of pressure when it comes to exams now. It used to be before that revision was kind of a thing you did without telling your friends. I’ve spoken to people older than me and younger. And my own experience
FigTechnical8043@reddit
Those who hate study will always attack those who present a threat in the future. I'm book smart, my bf is street smart, now he's older he's in awe of how intelligent I am. I'm not doing any better than him financially. I just like the written word.
Why study when you can be under age drinking, doing drugs and putting one foot in the grave before you're twenty?
If you go across to the rich people, you'll find intelligent people, but they do all the same stuff because they have the money to do it and go "at least I can read" Neither side is achieving anything but their little border lines are eternal and makes both sides feel better.
jonomacd@reddit
Public/private separation is part of the problem. Culture, like you describe in your question is driven from the children. We pull a lot of the kids with a strong work ethic and healthy parental support in to the private system. The kids that are left are less likely to support a strongly academic culture.
excitablegibben@reddit
It's not just in schools.
MD564@reddit
Culture from home then permeates culture in social circles.
ohthedarside@reddit
Because as someone actively in education a hell of alot of people including me feel extremely burnt out
The education system currently exists to make perfect workers and if you are even slightly different then it becomes near impossible to stay sane. Ask basically anyone who works in education if they think the current system is even slightly effective or good you will get a firm no
Also so many teachers are pressured into basically 24/7 telling students that if they dont do well in there gcse they have no hope or future further adding into stress
The current uk education system basically only works for completely streitypical people who have no extra challenges in life and do not suffer at all from any mental health issues or physical health problems.
Combine this eith teaches who are overstressed and overworked all while not being payed great and you can see why so many young people are anti intellectual
ContentWDiscontent@reddit
The educational system has also barely changed in any meaningful way (barring corporal punishment) since it was implemented in the Victorian era. It needs a complete gutting and renewal to adapt to educational psycology - not to mention the modern labour market - but everyone in power benefitted from this system (survivorship bias) and there just isn't the money/will to do it
ohthedarside@reddit
Also the problem of every few years a good chunk of kids get talked into doing a degree or going down the path of whatever is popular at that time
First programming now bricklaying i wonder what is next
Delicious_Ad9844@reddit
Work class anti-intellectualism goes quite far back in this country, to ideas around hard work during the industrial revolution, it's why the upper and upper middle classes are kinda self-perpetuating, the student environments are so different, Esspecially and private schools and public schools in more affluent areas in general
Velo_Rapide@reddit
I've often wondered this myself. Ultimately, it'll be the downfall of the country, for the majority at least.
Perhaps they can build walls around Cambridge, Oxford and Imperial to keep the English out and maintain standards?
But yeah.... sad bullies taking pride in stupidity, the only kind of smarts that are respected are those that are used to mock others.
YetAnotherMia@reddit (OP)
Why would they need to keep the English out?
ContentWDiscontent@reddit
It's a joke based on your own observations and also the fact that UK universities rely on overseas students for funding
Barry_Umenema@reddit
People dislike the arrogance that often goes along with high intelligence and academic ability which is great.. but people try so hard to signal this that they end up being proud and arrogant of the opposite.
This pride and arrogance is baked into the class system at all levels even though that is exactly the crap people had a problem with in the first place! 😂
zeldja@reddit
Working class crab bucket-ism.
It was incredible to experience a 180 on this by moving to another (state) school in a much better catchment area.
barrybreslau@reddit
I tell my son that it's ok to be one of the lads, but if he doesn't get GCSEs he will end up working in a shit job. Obviously we haven't covered the AIpocalypse yet, but hopefully he can be an electrician or something.
lambaroo@reddit
you made an assumption using "often" and "many" in your first sentence. you moved on to compare this assumption as if the assumption is true.
personally i think you're assumption is flawed to start with.
most kids i know take their education a hell of a lot more seriously now than most of the kids i went to school with 40 years ago (same school btw).
the pushing of tertiary education as the preferred route, the much lower number of apprenticeships (which used to be a very solid alternative to staying in full time education) and the general competition for jobs have led to 1 in 3 adults in the uk having some level of tertiary education (compared to 2 in 10 in china from what i can see). it's less "special" these days to have a degree, and becoming the norm over time, despite the cost but i'm not hearing anything in general about education being "looked down on", the opposite in fact.
scorpiomover@reddit
Historically many of the smart people used to be the officers ordering the soldiers to bayonet their ancestors babies.
The greater ability of the middle class with words was repeatedly used to keep down the working class and deny them human rights.
Intellect was weaponised and no longer automatically worthy of respect.
Plus, in these areas, when one of the people read books, they would rouse the people to revolt and so they would often be killed.
No-one same willingly paints a bullseye on their back.
Western countries used to be more like that, back when intellectuals were encouraged to develop social skills.
The Western attitude seems to be that it’s very rare to have both intellectualism and athleticism in the same man.
That USED to be true in the UK.
But then university education was expanded. Over 50% of the country goes to university. Now education is not a clear cut path to success anymore.
Small_Promotion2525@reddit
The same as people who call those that go into higher education even though it is statistically proven to be the best choice you can make to get a high paying job.
Harry98376@reddit
Thick pikey trash from the council estate are hardly likely to start enjoying literature. No, culture for them is rage baiting and then videoing the reaction on their latest iPhone 17.🙃
Harry98376@reddit
Because a lot of kids at sink hole schools equate lack of knowledge with being 'tough'. It's quite laughable really😂.
One_Anteater_9234@reddit
Because theyre thickos
ResponsibilityRare10@reddit
Crabs in a bucket mentality. It’s probably highly tied up with the class system somehow. Someone more articulate than me could likely explain it.
Xenozip3371Alpha@reddit
Kids are idiots.
BigGingerYeti@reddit
And they become parents that are idiots.
Bigfatandenglish@reddit
Crab Mentality
CasaSatoshi@reddit
'Crabs in a bucket' mixed with old classist ideas of 'not getting ideas above your station'
peppermint_aero@reddit
"Crabs in a bucket" is really just internalised classism, isn't it.
Wgh555@reddit
Oh yeah or in other words, inverted classism or reverse snobbery.
autofill-name@reddit
Shut up you square!
Open-Difference5534@reddit
Judging by the smiling faces on TV and in the press at exam results time, I think a lot of UK students and pupils are happy to get good grades.
There are kids who don't bother, but very much the minority.
A lot of UK parents employ private tutors to improve their child's grades too.
Sea-Payment4951@reddit
Nonsense. It's just different cultures. British people could ask why so many people - especially kids - from China are often awkward, shy or unsocial.
kingjobus@reddit
Theres definitely trends. When I was in high school, it was cool to be an idiot in a slacker like way. My younger siblings didn't really experience this and they weren't so into anti-intellectualism.
Also, there is the Australian "tallest poppy" syndrome, where anyone who does better than the crowd needs to be taken down to the rest of our level. This is also definitely a thing in the UK.
herne_hunted@reddit
This isn't new. I was bright at school fifty years ago and got nothing but mockery.
Dartzap@reddit
I must have missed this during my time in education.
If there was such a streak, our universities, museums and advanced manufacturing would all have closed due a lack of interest a long time ago.
Low_Border_2231@reddit
I think it has got better. Problem is those that struggle in school can make themselves feel better by mocking those who do well, as a coping strategy I guess.
Bright_Pen322@reddit
Part of it's cultural, British humour and culture is often self deprecating, even at oxbridge or imperial it's not cool to look like you're trying hard even if you are (from the UK cohort). So even those guys who study all the time will play it down if anyone ever asks, it's part of being humble and not showing off.
If you look at our stand up comedy vs americans, they will big themselves up, where we'll take the piss out of ourselves. It's an extension of that sometimes. I'm not sure why we're like that, but we are.
CodeToManagement@reddit
Because kids are stupid. Lots of kids don’t enjoy going to school so think the ones who put in effort are ones to be mocked.
Still_Wrap4910@reddit
Hangover from the times where the class system was rigidly enforced, the peasantry/working class didn't get an education beyond the basics, and saw education as something above their station, and anyone from. That class wanting an education was seen to have notions above their station, the world has moved on, that ingrained social bias has not.
lighthouse77@reddit
Only in the state non-selective schools.
coffeewalnut08@reddit
Tall poppy syndrome.
ShockingHair63@reddit
It’s very depressing. I don’t think we should put students under the intense pressure they do in some other countries, but we’re too far in the other direction. Not all schools, but in my experience some schools have been far too reluctant to encourage the brightest to go as far as possible, and our curriculum structure doesn’t really accommodate those who are far beyond the grades needed to pass and do well enough. Same in sports which I taught.
All too often when students excel, the teacher just relaxes and thinks they don’t need to push them because you can’t get higher than the top grade anyway. But these students could change the world one day in the right environment
RedneckMarxist@reddit
It's always been there from the Right Wing.
Elster-@reddit
The UK and several European countries don’t really like to celebrate success. There always to be a caveat if someone is doing well, rather than just having an attitude of success.
I remember in the 80/90s it was a lot more common than it is now. Where everyone looks to blame everything on someone who is doing well of why they are doing poorly.
bluetrainlinesss@reddit
We need to crush dissent.
Land_Pirate_420@reddit
It's easier to dumb down the smart than educate the stupid!
Best-Interaction82@reddit
China is so much bigger there is genuinely more room to move around and move up. In the UK there isn't. Effort is worth it when there's a chance of it paying off.
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