We got a DPE Issue
Posted by StructureOver9800@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 285 comments
We have DPE’s who have literally told me they are going to up their prices until people stop asking for checkrides. DPE’s charge 1500 for a private, instrument, or commercial initials. Then will charge them 1500 for a retest. Not having enough DPEs we’re forced to use them.
The standards for DPEs depends on their mood way too much. I’ve sent students to a DPE who’s in a bad mood and will fail them in the first couple of minutes for something ridiculous. And then they keep the full $1500 for the full checkride and got paid $1500 for 10 minutes of work.
I’ve seen DPEs test students allot recently on things outside of the ACS. For example doing steep turns under the hood on a private instrument checkride.
Endorsements DPEs know nothing. I had to write a TAA endorsement for a commercial checkride for a DPE. Heads up that doesn’t fucking exist. They will ask for a pic endorsement for an instrument checkride sometimes. Heads up they are rated and not doing the checkride in actual IMC.
Had a DPE tell me that a commercial student wasn’t legal for a checkride because we didn’t do 10 hours of instrument training after his instrument checkride. I understand logging 61.129 and the advisory circular covering the instrument training required for the commercial. I asked “would a private pilot not be able to go straight into the commercial without doing an instrument rating?” And he looked me dead in the face and said no.
The worst problem is that we can do nothing about it. We have to stroke their egos or we won’t get checkrides. We have to let them yell at us about stuff that is flat out wrong. Bring it up to the FSDO and they will always side with the DPEs.
This problem needs to be fixed.
CandyKat86@reddit
As difficult, long, and stressful as it made the checkrides... every day I'm thankful I somehow got an FAA backseater on both PPL and IFR lmfao. Free rides, only had to pay for the plane rental.
Treader1138@reddit
Normalize sending your DPE a 1099. If I’m paying a month’s rent for a checkride, the IRS should know about it.
rangespecialist2@reddit
You can't 1099 them as a PPL student. You have to be a business that has income and expenses. Plus you would need their social and have them fill out a W9 form.
tomdarch@reddit
You shouldn't be downvoted. For PPL, it isn't a business expense that would be counted against your income.
flagsfly@reddit
A 1099 documenting an expense from you is a secondary benefit, you don't need to have a 1099 to write off a business expense. The 1099's primary purpose is to document income for the receiving party. As a student, PPL, homeless guy, whatever, you can issue 1099s all you want if you paid someone more than $600 a year. It's to tell the IRS that "Hey, this guy over here has money you should tax!"
tomdarch@reddit
You stated that well and my above comment wasn't put very well. I wasn't clearly thinking my point through. I should have clearly put it in terms of when you are required to issue a 1099-NEC. From the IRS website:
mirassou3416@reddit
A business must report unless the entity is a corp, but an individual may report. The problem as stated earlier is that you have to obtain the TIN of the person
Snoopy2blimp@reddit
that’s not how 1099s work.
the only way a DPE would get 1099d is if your company paid for the checkride for extra certification. in that case the biz would 1099 the DPE, not a student.
Waste-Comparison-301@reddit
Ours require CASH
Navydevildoc@reddit
You can still 1099 them for it.
Snoopy2blimp@reddit
individuals don’t 1099 people. only businesses do.
ghjm@reddit
Only if they agree to fill out a W9, which they're technically required to do, but we all know they aren't actually going to. If you send a 1099 without a W9 then you're creating making more pitential IRS hassle for yourself then for them.
Navydevildoc@reddit
IRS has no way if you filled out a W9 or not, it's never sent to them.
The irony of the DPE beating the FARs over your head, but then turning their back on the Revenue Code is pretty comical.
flight0130@reddit
No, but you’d need a SSN or EIN to file the 1099.
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
And you require a RECEIPT.
Mr-Plop@reddit
Yeah , no DPE is writing receipts lol
Helicopter_DPE@reddit
I give receipts and invoices. I prefer cash but accept all methods of payments for now. I have heard of applicants canceling checks on DPEs after they failed.
mkosmo@reddit
In good news, that kind of canceled check will quickly be in the rumor mill and will quickly stunt their career.
Probably best we find out who the shitty trainees are that early on. Most of us would never dream of stiffing a DPE, even on a bad ride.
Mr-Plop@reddit
I wish everyone was as ethical as you. I had a DPE, known for discontinuing checkrides, tell me straight in my face they would've failed my student if they decided to go flying, due to "weather". The closest area of precipitation was 40 miles away. Apparently he had a doctor's appointment or something.
10FourGudBuddy@reddit
Could you argue theft of service? And would that be a felony over a certain amount?
Helicopter_DPE@reddit
I am sure. I do not know if it would be worth it. I just talk to the flight school and tell them I accept everything but if a circumstance like that happens to me, I will not do checkrides for them until that is resolved.
10FourGudBuddy@reddit
Fair enough, but if future pilots are out there with so little integrity and respect that they would do such a thing, they should be labeled as such.
HellYeaaahh@reddit
I’ve gotten a receipt for ever checkride I’ve taken so far.
Mr-Plop@reddit
Lucky you. I have to or seen someone. And I've taken 6.
lonaldlump32@reddit
I ask for receipts after every check ride from different examiners. No issues.
porkrind@reddit
Nothing about a cash transaction says you can’t send a 1099.
SenileCFI@reddit
An examiner in my area pitched a fit when 1099 stuff came up.
The student ofc quickly backed off because he would rather take a checkride that day instead of waiting an unknown further amount of time.
phteven1989@reddit
I had my private check ride last month in Maryland. It was $800 and had I needed a retake (thank goodness I didn’t) it would have been $400. Seems reasonable compared to $1,500! But still crazy amount considering the whole thing was less than four hours and I flew to his airport
patheticyeti@reddit
My commercial was 850.. these costs are fucking wild.
flywithstephen@reddit
I recently tried to convert my UK licenses to US and had to go via DPE’s. Despite the FAA verifying both my PPL/SPL (sailplane pilots license), DPE’s wanted to charge to do the paperwork for each one independently even though in the US it’s a rating on a single certificate.
GoofyUmbrella@reddit
It’s pretty messed up how this kind of shit can effect your career and the identical pilot who goes to a 141 with in house DPEs and 0 fails gets the airline job over the 61 pilot with 2 fails. Just a travesty.
Imperial_Citizen_00@reddit
Shit I wish my 141 had in-house DPE’s…one teacher got it and immediately quit cause they could make more money as an examiner, lol
Super-Possibility399@reddit
Are you talking about Goodman?
Pylotpat@reddit
Saul?
Imperial_Citizen_00@reddit
I plead the 5th, lol
PiperDriver1977@reddit
The people whining on reddit about DPEs and their pay, are the same people who will be whining a few years from now making half a million dollars flying for majors. Grow up people and mind your own business. If you have an issue with someone just be professional with them and if nothing comes out contact the fsdo to deal with it. Its a small world out there! Just remember, someone with lots of experience is willing to get in a little cessna 150 with a smelly guy in the middle of the summer to issue a pilot certificate! I think they work a lot for their money and that’s not including the liability of the issuance.
itsapilotperson737@reddit
If your DPE makes you do something not in the ACS and fails you, goto the FSDO and they will nullify the Letter of Disapproval.
LikenSlayer@reddit
Make sure when you file your taxes, you bill them 1099-NEC, they wanna jack up the price. Let the IRS start going after them for back taxes plus all the penalties.
Military taught me how to make shat roll up hill.
rangespecialist2@reddit
1099 the DPE as a student or as a CFI? Usually the DPE fees are paid by the student. So unless the student is an actual business, they aren't able to issue a 1099 for something that they are doing for leisure. CFI and up, they probably could. But then they would also have to take income and expenses on their own income taxes (not be an employee) and then also the DPE would need to be willing to fill out a W9 form. You would need their social in order to W9 them properly.
mirassou3416@reddit
You don't have to be a business to issue a 1099. IRS requires it for payments of 600 or more per person per year, so nannies, cleaning ladies, etc. who do not have a corporation. It's well within your right to ask for a W9, and you must issue a 1099 and report it on your taxes even though you aren't getting a deduction
Snoopy2blimp@reddit
I ate dinner last night at a steak house. the bill came out to $700+
you’re telling me I have to 1099 the steakhouse because it’s a small mom and pop place and not a corporation?
no… because individuals dont 1099. homeowners don’t 1099 their plumber or Gardner.
rangespecialist2@reddit
Not sure why you are being downvoted. You are 100% correct.
Snoopy2blimp@reddit
People just don’t think things through.
it’s the internet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ people are gonna believe what they want to.
If people thought this was actually real and doable then they would need to also 1099;
- their independent CFI too
- all the mom and pop flight schools that aren’t incorporated. Which is 90% of flight schools (not atp, CAE, American flyers)
- their barber (especially Women who get their hair colored too, that’s definitely more than $600 a year)
- their auto mechanic
keepitreasonable@reddit
Exactly - 1099s are trade or business reporting only - it says right on them !
canstucky@reddit
FWIW you cant pay a nan on a 1099, they are household employees, not contractors.
I know that’s not what this is about but I want to save people the headache of thinking they can save themselves payroll taxes.
mirassou3416@reddit
Yeah...I updated the comment saying that I was mistaken but then deleted it. Too many people were seeing it
keepitreasonable@reddit
1099s are trade or business reporting only. If you are scamming as a student that is very lame
fountainsofvarnoth@reddit
I love you. This is brilliant. The epitome of “fuck me? No, fuck you.”
mrdrelliot@reddit
The problem is that nobody that is trying to be a career pilot wants to risk it when their entire livelihood depends on passing checkrides. It ain’t right but if you start getting on these dudes bad sides they’re going to talk to each other. It’s a corrupt system.
Mr-Plop@reddit
I heard a rumor once the IRS was going after the whole DPE cash thing and the FAA told them to fuck off. Again, it's just a rumor but I'm wondering why the IRS hasn't done anything for so long.
djabdbsksibsbdkdk@reddit
Sorry man, no one tells the IRS to fuck off
Technojerk36@reddit
Except the Scientologists
LoungeFlyZ@reddit
All churches.
centexAwesome@reddit
I must go to one of those sissy churches that abides by the rules because they don't want any trouble.
Long-Fruit-3339@reddit
The Constitution
djabdbsksibsbdkdk@reddit
This is actually the only correct answer
Thengine@reddit
Plenty of feds tell the irs: you go sniff somewhere else.
Thinking the government, especially today with all the billionaires, is just naive.
djabdbsksibsbdkdk@reddit
Nah
LikenSlayer@reddit
I do! Then they throw the book at me. I literally just got done with them. They audited me for 2019. Hired a CPA/IRS team, and come to find out the IRS owes me money.
Was supposed to receive my C1-6525 & and check in the mail last Monday. But mailman lost it. Go figure!
Was a 2yr long battle. They were coming after my Crypto gains 🤣
EfficientMark8917@reddit
Happy they had to pay you!
As an aside, please don't say the 'mailman' lost it. We get blamed for so many things that we have no control over. Now, saying the 'post office' lost it would be spot on! What probably happened is that in the mass amounts of mail that the IRS sends out it got stuck to the envelope in front of it because the adhesive wasn't dry yet. This happens all the time from places that do large amounts of mail processed by machine. (source: 18 yrs as a mailman)
LikenSlayer@reddit
You probably right. Plant downtown lost it. Because my informed delivery showed i was supposed get it that day, 7 things total. That was the one thing lost. I, too, used to work at the P.O. I can't tell you enough times I filled out PS3971 🙃
Did all walking routes, because I didn't want Hollywood boxes, businesses, arrow key or residual mail for apts..loved it. Get out of the office & dont pick up the phone.
Ashamed-Charge5309@reddit
IRS has been defanged for a long time now. I'd love to see them shut down illegal 501c3 "animal rescues" who change names quicker then changing underwear, but good luck on that
southern-springs@reddit
Perhaps an accountant will come in here and correct me, but…
My understanding is that an individual can’t issue a 1099 to another individual. Its why you don’t have to send your landscaper a 1099 when they cut your grass over the course of a year, yet charge you more than $600. So, the way to do what you are describing above would be for the funds to flow through the flight school…
The reality is that the government has created a monopoly but isn’t regulating the commercial components of it well. Congress should require the FAA to take more responsibility for the economics of DPEs.
My fix would be to require DPE to pay license fees to the FAA that cover the costs of managing them, so that general FAA funds aren’t being used to manage the DPEs. Then the free market drive more DPEs because there would be more inspectors to manage (and police) them.
And OP is right, the only way to really complain will make the DPEs want to run away from you and your students.
mkosmo@reddit
FAA wouldn’t do that.
They also don’t have that authority.
Snoopy2blimp@reddit
this is how rumors start. stay in your lane and don’t give advice on 1099s or taxes.
1099s are not given out by consumers. only businesses.
A private pilot, multi, or instrument checkride isn’t someone’s “trade or business” (which is the requirement by the IRS). Decades ago I asked my CPA if I could write off my commercial and CFI class/instruction and books. He said no. I didn’t make any income in that field YET.
in your example, anytime I (a random consumer) goes to a steakhouse and pays $700 for a fun night out, you think that a consumer should 1099 the mom and pop restaurant? If someone pays a plumber to fix their hot water heater I’d have to 1099 them?
Come on, stop spreading rumors.
LikenSlayer@reddit
Actually, I've 1099 a plumber before. He had no problem with it. Even thanked me because he didn't want to be blind sided. As for PPL, Multi & and instrument, they utilize the flight school aircraft. Thus, in return, the flight school has a relationship with the DPE, providing that relationship is still beneficial for both parties. So the flight school can 1099 them if they want.
In the event that you use your own personal aircraft. Like I did with my Multi. I did 1099 the DPE. I was not even an LLC etc. Fell under "services provided" at that time it was 1099Misc now 1099NEC
And you dont 1099 a restaurant because the business itself is tax id under food services. You are paying directly for that service. So that makes no sense. That is how the restaurant is tax.
Not rumors, if I've personally done it first hand.
Snoopy2blimp@reddit
rumors rumors rumors.
ive made it easy for you, below is the link to the irs website. I copied and pasted the key part.
cliffnote version of what it comes down to= Ordinary consumers/civilians don’t 1099 people
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/am-i-required-to-file-a-form-1099-or-other-information-return
You are not required to file information return(s) if any of the following situations apply:
anaqvi786@reddit
Don’t you need their social to send a 1099?
Electrical-Bed8577@reddit
If cash payment is requested, they should offer you a W9, inclusive of their TIN. You then file a 1099 or 1099NEC depending on your circumstance. If they do offer you a W9, please tip them. Do the math. They mostly do this work as an obligation, either to the FSDO or the vocation itself.
Spark_Ignition_6@reddit
Thanks for the laugh!
Electrical-Bed8577@reddit
Yeah i forgot the /s .. Obviously that has happened .. Never in history...
sevaiper@reddit
Tip lmaoooooo
flyingPurp1e@reddit
The generous 20% tip on a $2000 bill.
Fine_Let8856@reddit
Tip them are you serious? Should I tip my landlord too?
Unlikely_Musician_67@reddit
DPE’s are perhaps the easiest cash business to audit. I think you’re just screaming at clouds with this one.
roguebuckeye@reddit
Only works business-to-business. Doesn't apply in this case unless your employer paid them or if you are getting your license paid for through your own company.
digital_dyslexia@reddit
I’m asking because I truly don’t know, wont 1099’ing DPEs just lead to DPEs charging more?
LikenSlayer@reddit
I mean, there's always that possibility. But in OP post, he/she stated that DPE's want to charge more already. So to correct their actions or reward them, 1099 them. If they want to charge more after they get 1099. Then, they will understand why no one will select them as their DPE.
Both parties need each other for obvious reasons . But there's a breaking point when it's no longer beneficial on one's end. Especially if one fails a checkride.
We ask, tell, then make!
First, we use the carrot, if that doesn't work. We then use the stick.
Clunk500CM@reddit
\^This guy rolls.
LikenSlayer@reddit
Rolls or Trolls?
Let me send you mesg. I'll send you the letter that shows you saying I got a refund with the Date. And how much they were asking. Plus my claim is out in with Post office saying they lost it.
Chappietime@reddit
Just make sure you ask for their social AFTER you have your certificate in hand.
Difficult-While-7673@reddit
I mean it would be funny and make a point but from a tax law/accounting standpoint, completely meaningless.
BrtFrkwr@reddit
You broke the code. The whole DPE system is corrupt and the FAA created it.
Law-of-Poe@reddit
Why are they given such autonomy to price gouge when they are government employees.
I realize this is a ridiculous question in 2025
rangespecialist2@reddit
They are definitely not government employees.
MNIMWIUTBAS@reddit
What incentive does anyone in the FAA have to change it?
BrtFrkwr@reddit
They are not government employees. They are private citizens authorized by the FAA to do their work for them and charge the public whatever they can get away with.
ManifestDestinysChld@reddit
As a non-pilot who's worked a lot in the education industry, I'm super curious as to the reasoning behind that call.
Bunslow@reddit
FAA is just organizationally incompetent at keeping the flow of new DPEs going
Spark_Ignition_6@reddit
Fixed that for you
Bunslow@reddit
I mean that too, but clearly some parts of it are less bad than others
Cobbler-Boring@reddit
Allot of the government works that way with contracting. Even things like AP classes standardized tests even military tests are contracted to college board, a private company.
Veritech-1@reddit
Financially unburdening the FAA from having to conduct all checkrides. It's as simple as that.
dopexile@reddit
They are paid by the person taking the test, which makes sense. If they were government employees, then the taxpayer would be on the hook.
Government employees take forever to hire, are expensive (massive salaries\pensions\benefits), and are generally impossible to fire.
If you had people slacking and barely doing any tests then its basically a management nightmare to fire someone for bad performance or misconduct. The process can take years and has to be fully documented.
If someone is fired, they can start a year-long grievance filing. Our agency has slackers and I was told us we couldn't fire anyone unless the legal counsel for the agency approves it and believes they could beat a lawsuit.
Next_Juggernaut_898@reddit
FAA wasn't given the funds to hire more ASI's. Or whoever did checkrides before. Technically you still can go to the local fsdo and get a checkride for free. But they're almost always going to say they're too busy with other duties
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
It’s the worldwide standard that examiners generally don’t work for the licencing authority, but rather exercise the privileges given to them in the form of an examiner certificate.
The difference here in Europe is, that we have plenty of examiners - largely due to needing more given how our licencing system works compared to FAA (e.g. IR requires a yearly proficiency check with an examiner), but also because it’s easier to become one.
Unless you’d want to pick a specific examiner (which the aviation authority can always override, and nominate whoever they want), for something like a PPL skill test, you’re waiting a few days at most.
THevil30@reddit
It’s like ancient Roman tax collectors — you were a private party assigned a certain region. Your job was to produce a certain amount of taxes from that region. Anything else you managed to collect was for you.
Law-of-Poe@reddit
I see that makes a little more sense
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
I thought DPE’s were just another, sometimes mir convenient, option to take your tests. Can’t you sign up to take a test with the local FSDO?
ltcterry@reddit
You can Each ASI does a couple a year.
AltitudeEdge@reddit
You can but would you wish than on your worst enemy? I mean, if you go to the FSDO for a checkride and the fabric on the front seats does not match the fabric of the back seats, be prepared to show them the logbook entry from when at some point in the last 50 years they were re-upholstered, that the work was done with approved materials using approved procedures, and the weight and balance was updated. And if they put that much effort into the color of the seat fabric, just imagine how your ride will go. It probably sounds like I’m exaggerating.
ltcterry@reddit
Many of the various checkrides have higher passing averages via the FSDO than DPEs.
But personally I'll stick with an external examiner.
BELFORD16@reddit
You “can”. ASIs do need to do some every year to stay current. But when your FSDO has 4-5 ASIs and they do the minimum (most do), that’s a whopping 8-10 check rides per year! That would have barely covered the number of sign offs I did at my peak of instructing. My FSDO covers my entire state. They literally do not have the staffing/desire to do them all. You almost always have to demonstrate a hardship of some kind to get them to intervene.
ops_asi@reddit
There’s no requirement to give any number of part 61 checkrides annually. There are usually enough 141 and 135 checks that NEED to be done by the ASI so the designees are the primary for the rides that they can give.
Trust me, most operations ASIs would love to get in an airplane more often, but the workload and ever reducing staffing make it difficult.
flightist@reddit
The main reason it’s a ridiculous question is that it’s an entirely false premise.
StPauliBoi@reddit
Well, they’re not government employees.
lil_layne@reddit
They are independent contractors authorized by the FAA to certify pilots. They are not government employees.
earthgreen10@reddit
i wonder how much DPEs make
Equivalent-Web-1084@reddit
Typical government jobs amirite
Agreeable_Snow1863@reddit
Come to NC CLT-GSO area we have DPEs charging $850 and $400 for retest.
xplanephil@reddit
The day Zenda decides to fully retire will be sad. Greg is great too as long as you don't get him started talking about politics.
classysax4@reddit
Unpopular take: this is rational behavior from the DPEs. There are two solutions: DPEs become nice and good-hearted, or we get more DPEs. We simply need more of them. A little bit of competition will eliminate the bad behavior.
i-like-drum@reddit
technically doing steep turns under the hood is in the instrument ACS, but it’s a very stupid maneuver
jtyson1991@reddit
Where? I see it in the CFII PTS only.
Unlikely_Musician_67@reddit
Reddit once again showcasing its continued inability to comprehend supply & demand as a basic principle that drives the cost of any good or service.
The supply of DPE’s has stayed the same while the demand for them has skyrocketed. How else should we allocate this scarce resource? A lottery? Onerous wait times? The reality is that high cost is probably the least painful way to solve this problem. That or create more DPE’s, but the administrator has pretty much zero interest in doing that past the bare minimum and currently the government is shut down.
Anything that has human evaluators will be subject to the capricious nature of people. It’s not avoidable. The administrators naive attempt to alleviate this with the ACS was just a colossal waste of effort and money.
Chago04@reddit
The problem is that supply and demand as a principle shows that a price in a free market will rise or fall to the appropriate level. But the DPE situation is not a free market. What this shows is that the government artificially holding DPE supply low has driven the price up.
Unlikely_Musician_67@reddit
It’s not artificial. The administrator does not have enough resources and manpower to manage more DPE’s. This is not a case of them stubbornly not minting more DPE’s. In fact they have started introducing quotas on their current DPE’s to get so many tests done in a year or risk losing their spot to someone else waiting in the wings.
The system is simply maxed out due to the deluge of aspirants since 2020ish. It is an issue of congressional appropriation and bureaucratic constraints, not particular malice on the part of the administrator.
Chago04@reddit
If the supply is being constrained by government regulations, which this definitely is, it is artificial.
Unlikely_Musician_67@reddit
You just are so stupid and ignorant it’s impossible to really impart on you the core concept here. The government cannot manage more DPE’s hence the supply is capped.
Chago04@reddit
I have a masters degree in economics. Please keep going about how I don’t understand supply and demand.
Unlikely_Musician_67@reddit
lmao ok
TrowelProperly@reddit
The real issue here, my opinion only:
I know to regain my instructor rating in my Canada I would have to buy the instructor manuals again ($100) then book a written test after say 4 days of studying for this test ($120 to write). I have to drive there, pay for parking, write the test, drive home (a fifth or sixth day gone) then I have to get a recurrent with a class 1 ($300 + day six or seven now) who will give me a recommend to fly with another class 1 for the flight test that I have to find and drive to ($300 + day seven or day eight). Then, all said and done I am down nearly a thousand dollars and 8 days of my own vacation and finances (this is what it took last time and I am never doing it again, even for the love of teaching guys that wish to learn to fly). THEN THE FUCKING RATING EXPIRES IN 1 TO 2 YEARS AGAIN.
Airline pilots cannot instruct and test without considerable amounts of extraneous admin work(+ they had to be instructors back in the day and keep up the quals).
If we can fly giant boeings and airbuses, we can sure as fuck teach on a 172 once the rust is taken off.
Yet... we for some reason cannot. Thats the real grift here. Fix that grift and training costs will drop to fair levels.
RegionalJet@reddit
I agree that's too much work to retain an instructor license, but being able to fly airliners doesn't necessarily mean someone will be able to teach.
TomToddlesworth@reddit
"If we can fly giant boeings and airbuses, we can sure as fuck teach on a 172 once the rust is taken off." is a WILD statement; the system is working if its preventing this exact attitude from getting people killed
TrowelProperly@reddit
You are confused, ignorant of whats ahead, and arrogant Mr. Cessner pilot.
I promise you I've done what you have done, I've gone back to the 172, and it took three flights to get back to normal.
You'll get it in ten or fifteen years. Don't worry, while my 737 doesn't normally exceed 25 degrees of bank, I do however remember to pull back a bit on the yoke when exceeding 30 ;).
TrineonX@reddit
You say that you are ready to instruct based on your expertise in flying 737s even though you also say that it would take at least 4 days of relearning the material for you to be ready to take the written test. You are by your own admission, not knowledgeable and up to date.
More concerningly, when challenged, you display textbook dangerous attitudes.
Sorry man, but people were absolutely correct in saying that jet pilot does not necessarily mean qualified instructor, even if you were one in the past. Frankly, your ego driven hostility towards people pushing back is exactly what I think we do not need in instructors.
It can be simultaneously true that TC is asking too much to requalify, while at the same time you are not qualified to instruct despite knowing how to fly a 737.
TrowelProperly@reddit
Well I was a qualified instructor multiple times. They just expired. Its a legal thing .
If I had you write an exam tomorrow, you wouldn't do well. Those exams aren't necessarily a reflection of applicable aviation and are academic in nature.
So once again, it would take a few days of self study to be sharp. Maybe fifteen minutes of reading the maneuvers manual and flight test guide before taking a student flying after that.
TomToddlesworth@reddit
following up macho statements by calling me arrogant is certainly an option. try making a few more assumptions about me while you're at it. best of luck
TrowelProperly@reddit
Thats exactly the point. Those that cannot and do not want to will not. Just the ones that genuinely want to.
Theres no more pressure to go to the airlines if you are already in the airlines, and we are already making money. Hence, only the ones who enjoy teaching and spending the time to give back will do just that.
MonkMean6918@reddit
I’m in Miami, I’ve heard one DPE who is well known is increasing his rate to $2k per checkride. I hope others don’t follow suit. This is insane! We are all students here
Jwylde2@reddit
Start documenting everything. And I mean EVERYTHING. Things you don’t think would be significant…document it.
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
All DPE tests should be required to be videoed so the local FSDO can review them either randomly or when requested.
GenerationSelfie2@reddit
Are you nuts? I don't want the FAA being able to review my checkrides. As notionally black-and-white as the ACS standards are, DPEs still have a lot of leeway to pass or fail someone based on how well they correct mistakes. I have no interest in having some ASI decide that no, I actually failed my IR checkride because my altimeter needle dipped 20 feet low at MDA without the DPE saying anything.
TurkishDrillpress@reddit
The FAA isn't going to watch every damn checkride. If there is a dispute about something that happened during the ride, it isn't a "he said/she said" and can be appealed to someone else.
It's a good idea, just like forcing cops to wear cameras so we can observe them violating citizens' rights on a daily basis.
sunfishtommy@reddit
Yea but you can be sure they will watch it when ever you have any sort of violation. Make a mistake at the airlines lets go back and see how well you answered your instrument procedures from 5 years ago.
Ashamed-Charge5309@reddit
What do you fear then? That they find you would be a habitual jag off who to no ones surprise at that rate put the plane into a hole in the ground? The only problem at that point is it wasn't done earlier when you were solo versus with a plane load of passengers, let's be real.
shakes head Can't believe how diseased it is inside aviation at all levels
TurkishDrillpress@reddit
Where are you coming up with this load of BS?
I am a B-737 Captain at a major that records checkrides on request. I also flew for a major that used to record all checkrides. Every single one.
At the end of the ride the recording was erased.
I have also NEVER heard of what you are describing which is nonsense.
sunfishtommy@reddit
Are you outside the USA? Video recording checkrides is not normal in the USA whether in the 121 world or otherwise.
It would be very unusual to request to video recording during a checkride and i know examiners who have refused.
Thengine@reddit
The faa will find someone they don't like, then go into their history and violate them. It's happened to me. I talked to the big wigs at Oshkosh, they said:
"that's not supposed to happen. Oh well. Get ducked"
Unlikely_Musician_67@reddit
Reddit is full of terrible ideas but this might be the worst.
cyberzl1@reddit
So there is an interesting question. Can they be? I was told I had to make sure my GoPro was off. He said I was legally not allowed to record it. I seriously doubted that but didn't care enough to argue the point.
mduell@reddit
That’s just another opportunity for every applicant to fail.
fgflyer@reddit
With the current state of affairs, I completely agree with this
Happy-Wrongdoer2438@reddit
My FSDO literally does not allow recording of checkrides lol
Jwylde2@reddit
I don’t know of even a DPE that does. But I didn’t say record. Document. Old school. And no one ever said anything about audio recording. 😉
Equivalent-Web-1084@reddit
Maybe one day we can have enough evidence to present to Congress lmao
wtonb@reddit
for example
DatSexyDude@reddit
I agree generally, but you have to remember what the DPE could be doing instead.
Imagine they are an airline pilot. They show up to work, and the plane isn't broken. They don't have to worry about the other guy not having the right endorsements and having to track down an instructor. They don't have to worry about the weather not being good and cancelling. The concept of a recheck doesn't exist.
And they get paid $1000-$3000 for just setting foot in the airport.
KrabbyPattyCereal@reddit
Yeah it’s not my job to pay for their opportunity cost. Imagine that a chef at the Olive Garden could go be a private chef, should that jack up the cost of my unlimited breadsticks to $30?
DatSexyDude@reddit
If someone working at Olive Garden could be a private chef they’d probably do that if it’s a better gig that microwaving breadsticks. Due to that person leaving, Olive Garden might have to raise wages a bit for line cooks.
Supply and demand. You don’t expect the line cook to “give back” and take a lower than market wage, so why would you expect the DPE to do the same thing?
Optimus__Prime__Rib@reddit
Well, if you want to make a comparable example, it would have to be in a world where there's only 100 restaurants and you have 10,000 trained chefs
DatSexyDude@reddit
That would mean the restaurants have “monopsony power” or a monopoly on employment for chefs. If this was the case, it would be very likely that a lot of those chefs would go do something else where they would make more money..
Optimus__Prime__Rib@reddit
Ask yourself how many pilots on this sub are doing work outside of flying because there is so little airline jobs out there right now.
DatSexyDude@reddit
Probably many! But that doesn’t have anything to do with the high prices charged by DPEs.
Optimus__Prime__Rib@reddit
You were suggesting that a private chef working at olive garden insteading private chef-ing (ie. DPEs doing checkrides instead of doing some other work in aviation like flying for airlines) then they would go do that, which would create a demand for DPE's doing checkrides, and subsequently raising prices for checkrides. At least, that's how your example came out from my end.
I was suggesting that perhaps there isn't something better for some of these DPEs to go to, considering how few airline jobs there are. And besides that, from what I've seen, the whole DPE situatoin has nothing to do with what they could be doing instead of checkrides, and has everything to do with the 'good ol boys club' creating very limited supply of DPE's, which raises the demand for said DPE,s which raises the price of DPEs. I don't think your scenario would do anything to raise checkride prices above what they already are. I know people who are as great a pilot as they are an educator, who have tons of experience flying expensive airplanes and have seen a real-world emergency or two in their time flying, who have applied to become DPEs and have not gotten selected. But these people also weren't buddy-buddy with anyone at the FSDO. And they applied in areas that desperately need not just DPEs, but good DPEs.
KrabbyPattyCereal@reddit
Everyone is capable of more. The consumer is under no obligation to pay someone for their best possible worth, they’re obligated to pay for the service they’re receiving. A DPE charging $1500 for 4ish hours of work is not worth it yet we are artificially forced by the FAA to either wait months and months for the FSDO to do it or for some mercurial boomer to do it
DatSexyDude@reddit
A pilot paying $1500 for four hours of the DPEs time is clearly worth it, otherwise no one would pay.
The system is totally broken but blaming the DPE for giving up a cushy airline paycheck for the day to take your $1500 is short-sighted.
KrabbyPattyCereal@reddit
I think we both know that they’re exploiting inelastic demand. Nobody gets to the finish line of a rating or cert after spending multiple 5 figures and says “nah, that DPE fee is too high, I’m done being a pilot”.
__joel_t@reddit
No, they're responding rationally to the FAA artificially constraining the supply of DPEs. That's the real problem. Not the DPEs.
DatSexyDude@reddit
Of course they don’t, because it’s worth it to pay $1500 for six checkrides to make $100-600k for the next 40 years.
LtPeter-Mitchell@reddit
Then go be an airline pilot? Opportunity cost shouldn’t be a factor in this equation especially with price gouging and testing beyond the ACS. That doesn’t really say “I became a DPE to give back”.
DatSexyDude@reddit
Great so if all the DPEs went to be airline pilots, check rides would get more expensive.
$1500 is pretty good deal actually to have a self-employed aviation professional hang out with you for half a day. That’s what a second year narrowbody pilot averages per day, maybe less. And the airline guy gets 15-19% toward a 401k.
I agree with the premise, check rides are too expensive and DPEs should test outside the ACS, but telling DPEs “be cheaper” is totally unproductive. The FAA has got to fix the system.
CaptMcMooney@reddit
every dpe i've taken a checkride with has been an Airline Pilot, strangely enough all UAL
Classic-Umpire8280@reddit
Saying opportunity costs shouldn’t be a factor is like saying gravity shouldn’t be a factor.
Optimus__Prime__Rib@reddit
Hey you know, that sounds like a great idea actually. But first, I need to find a DPE with actual availability and prices I can afford so that I can take my checkride so I can become an airline pilot...
GoofyUmbrella@reddit
Im a CFI but I could be driving CDL for more $ so im going to charge my students more because of that.
__joel_t@reddit
If the market would let you do that, then I would say there's nothing wrong with you doing that. Hell, I would argue that CFIs are way too underpaid, so you should do that.
GoofyUmbrella@reddit
It was a satire.
itsnotbroke@reddit
I don’t get this 1099 thing. You pay a DPE for a service like a plumber…do you 1099 your plumber?
No. The plumber gives you an invoice. Ask the DPE for an invoice or receipt.
I accept cash or credit cards, I’ve had less than 5% of my applicants pay with a card.
FlyingHigh67@reddit
As someone who is interested in becoming a DPE, I think those practices are abhorrent and obscene! First of all, I couldn't fathom charging $1500 for a PP checkride. And if I did have to fail them, I wouldn't charge the same amount for a retest. That's crazy!
wt1j@reddit
Stop shopping at Walmart for DPEs.
Old-Air5484@reddit
Me trying to figure out what the standards are for a Private Instrument Checkride.
TheGeoninja@reddit
I feel that issues with DPEs are more so a symptom of larger issues within aviation training, you might go as far as to say that it is a feature, not a bug.
We have a logjam of people in a training pipeline where aircraft availability is often preventing people from flying to a checkride and instead keeps them close to home, if not kept at their home airport, limiting scheduling options so you have DPEs saturated in some markets with a two month waitlist while you have guys booking a week out at below market rate.
Ok_Ad_9878@reddit
Say what you will about 141's, but every time I read about problems with DPE's I'm happy I don't have to deal with them.
WhiteoutDota@reddit
141s have their own set of issues. It isn’t better on the examining side, just different.
brucebrowde@reddit
How is it different?
WhiteoutDota@reddit
Both are corrupt, but 141s have the power of being able to act in their own self interest to a degree the DPE does not. They do their own training and examinations, sure, but they can also pass people who don't deserve to pass. Or, if they do fail an applicant, they won't mark it as a failure, they mark it as a discontinuance or change the lesson to something that isn't the EOC. Why? So they keep their pass rate, which is required for their 141 status to be renewed. Students are also far more likely to be not taught certain things (like VOR cross radials) because they know the school doesn't test it. It's a conflict of interest.
Examiners at 141s tend to very young 20 something year old with no real world professional experience, vs DPEs by and large are actually very reasonable and chill people with decades of professional aviation experience.
141 programs have to comply with their course syllabus, which means students get pushed along to their checkrides before they are ready far more often and regularly than in part 61 programs.
What does apply to both part 61 and 141 programs are ridiculous multi-hour checkrides because the examiner felt like it. The only difference, really, between them is that the 141 program probably doesn't charge 'examiner fees' directly, that's baked into the cost of the program/tuition.
It works out to be basically the same, no matter what. 141 programs do have far more examination events (stage checks) that are often reportable on airline job applications, are far less flexible for students, require excessively large amounts of irrelevant knowledge to be learned for the given rating- I took two college courses in meteorology for a PPL, for example. Embry-Riddle requires students learn how to fly a CRJ. Why would anyone want to pay for that to get the same rating as anyone else?
DingoTime09@reddit
ERAU doesn’t require student to learn how to fly the CRJ😂 It’s an optional ATP-CTP course students can choose to take if they wish. It’s not CRJ focused, that’s just the sim they have/use.
WhiteoutDota@reddit
It is optional? What is the incentive to take it? Just to fill an elective slot?
DingoTime09@reddit
The class can replace another 400 level class under the AS degree program, and the sim time is free (covered by the school). Really no point in not taking it other than availability in students schdules, and the fact that it fills up on the first day classes open for registration due to popularity.
brucebrowde@reddit
Thanks, that's interesting, if not in a good way.
boldoldpilot@reddit
This is the way
jet-setting@reddit
Unfortunately not all 141 have in house examining. Most 141 schools still have to use DPEs as well.
SirEDCaLot@reddit
Just FYI- there is an appeal process. The window is very short though (only a few days).
If an applicant is improperly failed by a DPE, they have the option to appeal that failure directly to an FSDO. They have to do so very quickly after the failure, I think the window is only a few days long. However once that appeal is made, they will get to do the checkride with an FAA check pilot. If they pass that, the failure is erased from their record.
So I suggest every time a student is IMPROPERLY failed by a DPE, for example failed on something that's not in the ACS, have them appeal it. Every single time. Your FSDO will have to start doing a bunch of checkrides and perhaps will start to realize that the DPEs are improperly failing qualified applicants.
Happy-Wrongdoer2438@reddit
Depends on the FSDO, I tried appealing a checkride after failing something that wasn't supposed to be tested and the FSDO told me to screw off. I know 2 other people who got the same response after trying
SirEDCaLot@reddit
I would suggest escalate that above the FSDO then. Go up the chain and make noise.
The new DPE selection system is supposed to try and reduce the 'old boy system' that exists in many areas, but there's still a lot of work to be done removing the 'old boy system' that already is in place.
Happy-Wrongdoer2438@reddit
Who would I escalate to? Tbh i've always sort of just been told that the FSDO is basically the end of the line. This was a year ago so probably nothing they could do but I'm still curious
SirEDCaLot@reddit
Next step up might be a Regional Administrator.
FSDOs are supposed to follow CSI so if you have documented examples that they aren't that's a good way to get attention.
Failing that you could go to the national level. You'd want the Aviation Safety Office. Or just email the office of the Deputy Administrator.
CarelessWhisperer777@reddit
Do DPEs have to provide any sort of financial documents to their supervisors to show they’re charging fair prices? Seems like the FAA wouldn’t want someone to be abusing their power with their name stamped to it
ManufacturerThick961@reddit
Steep turns under the hood is crazy work lol
Unlikely_Musician_67@reddit
Is it?
I dunno, I think our standards are ridiculous and the accident rate reflects it.
ManufacturerThick961@reddit
It’s a visual maneuver so doing it under the hood doesn’t make much sense
Unlikely_Musician_67@reddit
There is value in being able to fly the aircraft at a high angle of bank off just the instruments. I dunno, maybe the PPL standard should be significantly higher to stop people from annihilating their families flying VFR into IMC.
ManufacturerThick961@reddit
If you’re flying IFR properly you shouldn’t need to make any steep banks but people do get into steep spirals often unfortunately. Recovery from upset attitudes under the hood is important, our standards there should be high but that’s on the CFI and DPE to set and uphold those standards.
Unlikely_Musician_67@reddit
OK how is a wet PPL supposed to know how to fly IFR properly if they haven’t been trained on it?
hoosier06@reddit
I paid one with a certified check. They looked at me like I was insane. Sorry you get to report that on your taxes.
Unlikely_Musician_67@reddit
Do you understand how pitifully easy it would be to audit a DPE? The record is literally on the Airman’s registry. You could do the math on a napkin to figure out what they make.
EsquireRed@reddit
Did you pass? I would have been nervous. LOL
hoosier06@reddit
Yes
live_drifter@reddit
It’s not a problem, that’s called basic economics of supply and demand.
StructureOver9800@reddit (OP)
Read the whole thing
live_drifter@reddit
Read the whole thing, it’s the same as reading yelp reviews, people only complain when they can remain anonymous or perceive they were wronged.
Nowhere in this post is accepting responsibility.
That’s why this place called the internet is the cesspool of the world.
Unlikely_Musician_67@reddit
Just a bunch of loser malcontents who get pissy when everything is not literally handed to them. In thirty years when they hold all their cards let’s see how benevolent they’ll be towards the young aspirants of limited means?
Twarrior913@reddit
Excellent troll. No one could legitimately be this inept but people sre falling for it. Keep it up!
GoofyUmbrella@reddit
Rich Bathelder is that you?
FlyingDog14@reddit
Artificially limited supply, and the supply isn’t accountable to anyone even though they provide a “public service”.
HLSparta@reddit
And when you severely limit the supply but keep the same/increasing demand, the prices will skyrocket and quality can decline. That's also called basic economics of supply and demand.
Darkestknite@reddit
DPE spotted
thewizbizman@reddit
Found the DPE
No-Improvement3801@reddit
My DPE threatened to fail my checkride AFTER I was told I passed bc I asked if they would fill out a 1099 for the ride bc my parents asked me to…
keepitreasonable@reddit
You are a straight scammer most of the time if you are 1099 ing your dpe fees
Unlikely_Musician_67@reddit
Yeah that totally happened.
Capital-Detective278@reddit
Why in the hell would DPE's up their prices until people stop asking for Check Ride's? They don't want Work?
No-Attempt9354@reddit
My cfi student is being charged $2500 fucking cold ones for a cfi initial ride. I paid $1300 just a few years ago.
NakedRaincoat@reddit
On another post about this the other day, I had someone tell me the second you went to the FSDO that DPE was suspended. So must be a disconnect somewhere.
Truthfully though, if the DPE’s in your area are this bad then get several CFI’s and students to document their experiences tie those back to 8900.1 and 8000.95 and maybe have your chief CFI have a conversation with them. If that doesn’t solve it then go to the FSDO. If they don’t know endorsements, training requirements, and proper testing under the ACS then they need to be retrained. If your local FSDO won’t listen then go to their managing office.
In the meantime, whining in the Reddit echo chamber won’t do anything. However, having professional conversations with decision makers in your area rooted in guidance could have tangible outcomes.
As for the fee’s. The FAA is long overdue in addressing that but hopefully there’ll be a market correction in the coming year on that
mattias888@reddit
You complain. Your students can’t get checkrides. Nothing happens. Now what?
NakedRaincoat@reddit
Then once they’re endorsed sign their IACRA and show the FAA there’s a need for more examiners. Also, it’s in their guidance they have to make themselves available so if they refuse to go to your school because their feelings are hurt then once again, talk with the FSDO
Or, the examiner can be a professional “worthy” of their fee admit they’re wrong and learn to test appropriately according to their guidance and ACS. That’s why I said have the Chief/director of the flight school have a conversation with them. The DPE holds their students accountable so they can help hold the DPE accountable. Nothing wrong with that and I’d imagine the vast majority of DPE’s could swallow their pride and have that conversation
brucebrowde@reddit
I feel GPs questions is - after you show that to the FAA and they don't anything, now what?
CaptMcMooney@reddit
supply and demand is a bitch
Warm_Oil7119@reddit
Real easy to cancel checks for services not being rendered. Anyone with a history of deliberately failing individuals for a mandatory service should have their credentials revoked. Regardless of the industry.
FlyElias@reddit
I second this thing about endorsements. Google Gemini said that a checkride endorsement needs to be renewed every two months, in addition to the 3 hours of training in the last two months endorsement. Google was wrong, but the DPE went with Google. The FAA should definitely make clear that DPE’s cannot make up rules.
I’ve never worked with a bad DPE. The three I’ve worked with have been mentors, but we do need to make sure we’re on the same page… And they need to hire more.
I do know of a DPE in the area that I would never work with, and he makes up his own rules. The options are slim in my neck of the woods, and we have far more than some of you guys.
Pure-Suspect-8890@reddit
Part 141 is better for this reason. We have in house examining authority and it eliminates the bias.
My glider club has an examiner we trust, and he is good. We've worked with him many years and while he does have a few failed checkrides, it is never unreasonable. This situation looks like its gotten out of hand though
MockCheckrideDotCom@reddit
Uh, your school examines its own students, and that school is in the business of "making pilots."
Let's take a minute and think about the meaning of the word "bias" here.
Mr-Plop@reddit
Thank God DPEs are not in the business of making pilots.
MockCheckrideDotCom@reddit
Mr-Plop@reddit
Just as the opposite, DPEs have an incentive to fail / discontinue checkrides in order to charge re-testing fees. Which I have experienced first-hand, many many times. The issue not the self examining authority vs designated, the issue is the financial incentives from both sides. Checkrides should be administered only by the FAA (ASIs), for a fixed, small fee, like the DMV. But it's not in either side's interest for that to happen neither the FAA has the manpower to do so.
MockCheckrideDotCom@reddit
I don't think that there's actually much incentive for DPEs to fail students. I've talked to many over the years and it's my understanding that retests and discontinuances are kind of a pain in the ass. From the financial side, a recheck also takes up a spot from what would otherwise be a full paying test, so I don't really see the financial gain. Despite the common belief at flight schools, there's actually no threshold for required pass or failure rates.
Having said all that, I absolutely agree with your suggested solution. I posted pretty much the same thing in a comment a few minutes ago. Bringing examining authority back to FAA employees is going to be the best way to ensure a standardized test experience, both in terms of test standards and cost.
Pure-Suspect-8890@reddit
By bias, I meant DPE's failing students like this to make money. The way mine works is we have our group of check airmen, some who are active instructors and some who come by for checkrides only.
I can agree that there is some inherent bias as I have heard stories of some check pilots failing students on one thing they probably shouldn't have, but they are not in the business of making bad pilots or failing everyone to have them take a few more hours, and if your instructor is a check pilot they don't allow them to give you the checkride.
FrankCobretti@reddit
Damn. I’ve got to get in on that.
Mr-Plop@reddit
Good luck, it's like Club 33 at Disney-Orlando.
PhillyPilot@reddit
The FSDO has and will fire DPEs. They don’t always side with them. Specially if there’s multiple complaints.
pilotjlr@reddit
The DPE system is broken and has been for a while. The right thing to do would be to eliminate it, hire way more ASIs, and then all checkrides are free with an inspector. But since we can’t even seem to keep the government running anymore, that’s probably not going to happen anytime soon.
But for some things, like the 61.129 example you mentioned, that’s just DPEs doing what their FSDO told them to do.
Skynet_lives@reddit
Yeah I have long heard that your instrument rating doesn’t absolve you of the 10hrs for Comm.
Also I doubt the TAA thing was an “endorsement” per se. I have seen DPEs require the CFI to sign off that TAA was actually done, since there is no real way to tell if a tail number is TAA or not. Although that stems from not being properly logged in the first place.
The rest, well that’s capitalism.
pilotjlr@reddit
Yeah there is a pretty clear LOI saying instrument training needs a 61.129 note to use used for commercial. But some FSDOs don’t appear to have their DPEs enforce that.
Japanisch_Doitsu@reddit
Which LOI?
pilotjlr@reddit
The Hartzell and Theriault interpretations cover this:
https://download.aopa.org/epilot/2010/101220theriault.pdf
thesexychicken@reddit
This is i think what more people need to understand. Some dpe’s are being silly but most are simply complying with their fsdo’s policy.
Alternative-Cup4721@reddit
“Had a DPE tell me that a commercial student wasn’t legal for a checkride because we didn’t do 10 hours of instrument training after his instrument checkride. I understand logging 61.129 and the advisory circular covering the instrument training required for the commercial”
Maybe don’t understand English, but this is confusing.
Are you saying he is wrong?
StructureOver9800@reddit (OP)
Kindof the training is slightly different than instrument but the training is not required to be done after their instrument rating
MockCheckrideDotCom@reddit
If it wasn't logged per 61.129 when the training was done concurrently with the instrument rating, the examiner was correct to deny the exam.
Alternative-Cup4721@reddit
So you showed the dpe the specific entries with the notation of 61.129? And that was done at the time of instrument training and to the commerical standards?
I think the problem half the time is the DPE takes on their own interpretation of the regs because thats how they learned it, but i would also say its fairly common that most examiners do not like to see double dipping even if logged appropriately
MockCheckrideDotCom@reddit
The system is a mess. Same number of DPEs as a decade ago, and twice the volume of flight tests. Add to that, a large percentage of examiners don't do more than a handful of tests a year, and you've got a few hundred people responsible for more than a hundred thousand flight tests.
Bring examining authority under a national managing office with national standards (none of this my FSDO says "x" bs). Examiners are direct FAA contractors. Don't have to be full time, but need to have a minimum commitment of number of exams conducted a year. Fixed compensation to the examiner, fixed fee to the applicant.
MarionberryChemical9@reddit
I failed my cfi checkride 10 mins into the flight for not audibly saying my landing checklist. It was a fail able error but one that shouldn’t be failed for. Did two landings and got failed, still not happy about it. 2k for the initial and 1k for the retest.
GoofyUmbrella@reddit
Yeah I had a wack fail on my CFI oral that people were telling me to go to the FSDO over, it’s just sad that this kind of stuff can squash dreams.
cl_320@reddit
Yup and now you have to explain it to every employer despite it being a ridiculous fail and there's nothing that can be done about it. I don't really think that the FAA intended for checkride pass/fails to be used for hiring like that
mirassou3416@reddit
Keep reporting them to the FSDO's
doug_masters@reddit
Hot take: DPEs shouldn’t be washed-out Regional Captains who couldn’t make it to a major and make it up by billing multiple checkrides a day. Or, just anyone who makes a full-time career out of it.
TheMeltingPointOfWax@reddit
Not really a hot take. Who do you think should be the ones doing it?
GoofyUmbrella@reddit
1000hour CFIs
doug_masters@reddit
People active in instruction and evaluation that have a decent reputation amongst the aviation community. DPEs sent off on all-expenses paid trips to conduct back-to-back checkrides at large flight schools seems fishy too.
TheMeltingPointOfWax@reddit
Agreed, but we exist in a capitalist society. Those most qualified pilots are, by and large, going to follow the money away from instruction and towards the airlines.
Those one offs that truly love instructing and are happy teaching make the best DPEs and should be protected at all costs. Pretty few and far between unfortunately.
THevil30@reddit
Or better yet make it an actual career where they just get paid by the FAA and then the FAA charges applicants a fixed fee.
doug_masters@reddit
I’m curious how other countries do this.
GoofyUmbrella@reddit
This just isn’t true. In general aviation, all applicants are held to the same standards with no exceptions. All DPEs conduct their checkrides according to the ACS with no exceptions and there is no variation from one DPE to another.
GoofyUmbrella@reddit
This isn’t true. At the end of the day, all applicants are held to the same standards with no exceptions. All checkrides are conducted in accordance with the established provisions of the ACS and there is no variation from one examiner to another and if you disagree you don’t care about safety.
ThePurpleUFO@reddit
Sounds like this has become a totally corrupt and rotten system.
When I got my Private license and Commercial license back in the 1960s, as I recall, both tests took about three hours and in each case, I don't think I paid the examiner more than $50 if that.
I'm sorry people have to deal with this now. I'm sorry people have to deal with this...it's outrageous.
rangespecialist2@reddit
The problem is there aren't enough people at the FSDO to oversee more DPEs. There are plenty that want to and qualify to be DPEs. But the FSDO can't designate more because lack of people to oversee. Each person can only oversee so many DPEs. It isn't so easy to just find people, the ones that are hired to oversee DPEs must have all their ratings as well since they will be giving checkrides to the DPEs. Most people with those hours and ratings are likely just going to go to the airlines instead of wanting to work for a Gov agency.
MissionRaider@reddit
How is it even possible to have a lack of flight examiners in the US ? It has the biggest GA industry in the world.
The flight hour of an easa fe is the same as an fi. I cant imagine paying pc12 rates for a skill test.
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Artificial limit of supply, kind of like 1500h rule, the difference being one is popular with majority of airline pilots, and the other only with examiners.
TobyADev@reddit
That’s insane. The UK is like £125/hr, or £250 for a PPL test
Apprehensive_Cost937@reddit
Yeah, but UK probably has more active PPL examiners than the entire USA.
SpaceboyMK2@reddit
I paid $800 for a seaplane checkride which was literally 4 take offs and landings and a 0.6 in the logbook. He was a nice guy and professional, but $800 is taking the piss 😭
Electrical-Bed8577@reddit
Seaplanes are awesome. Seaplane wear and tear is a pisser and not not in the Aus or ME meaning. You never know who will glide in like Loon or dip/dunk it like an unladen swallow.
HaikuKnives@reddit
Local DPE has left my instructor on Read for like a month.
boldoldpilot@reddit
141 self examining was nice
Cold_Stroll@reddit
We need a rate my professors equivalent for DPE’s. I don’t like whining but at the end of the day if their reputation takes a hit so will their bottom line. I hate whenever I tried to google my DPE’s and despite many of them doing it for 20 years there was literally nothing online about them other than maybe a Reddit post
58Baronpilot@reddit
I always assumed that DPE's would have the final word on FAR's, any changes to them and the ACS. I recently signed off an instrument student and to be safe, I called the DPE in advance to ask if he was on board with the then-recent Carty interpretation of the "three different kinds of approaches" requirement [61.65(d)(2)(ii)(c)]. Amazingly, he was unaware of it!
gahdamnurannoying@reddit
you could always TP their house
Right-Suggestion-667@reddit
Depending on which geographical area the DPEs all get together to fix the price
Slight_Bug2309@reddit
I got bit by the 61.129A as well.
Lopsided-Bench-1347@reddit
I paid $5 for an instructor and $25 for the DPE. By today’s standards if a DOE charges $1500, a CFI should be getting $300 per hour.
10FourGudBuddy@reddit
The DPE I used last year charged me 600, and 300 for a retest.
MassiveCommittee6125@reddit
Governmental fraud, waste and abuse naw not a thing
illimitable1@reddit
Markets, right? If Congress were to fund the FAA more amply, examinations would not be funded by what is effectively a user fee. But we don't like paying taxes, so we have the current system. And I don't think the FAA has the capacity to create DPEs fast enough.
Ill_Rush9159@reddit
Not to mention the standards from DPE to DPE are entirely different and some not even tested to ACS standards
Im_a_pylut@reddit
Don't got to the local FSDO. Report misconduct using the nationwide reporting tool online. The feds can't bring on more DPEs because they don't have enough managers to oversee them. Best option is to report them and get their designation removed. There's a ton of good people waiting for a DPE slot to open up, but those slots won't be available until the bad eggs get removed.
tifa3@reddit
1500 is robbery in broad daylight lol
Helicopter_DPE@reddit
I am sorry you guys are dealing with this. That’s terrible. If you believe the DPE is doing anything unethical there is a way to report on Designee.FAA.gov.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
insert *always has been meme*
saml01@reddit
I lost a checkride date because my DPE didnt get onboard with the new user authentication system all government sites went to. Night before he cancelled and said to blame the FAA. Had to wait another 3 months. Spend more money staying current. The system is a fucking joke.
BandicootNo4431@reddit
Write your representatives.
Only they can force the FAA to fix this.
Clearly the FAA Has no interest in doing so
sjr930@reddit
The whole dpe system is an absolute joke. Needs major overhaul
KaHOnas@reddit
I've tried to get my DPE status as a Rotorcraft pilot for some time. I've registered as a DPE "applicant" and have heard nothing back. It's beginning to feel like a club I'll never be part of. I'd love to be able to create more helicopter pilots.
It seems that a significant portion of FW DPEs act like unreasonable gatekeepers and I wonder when they lost their passion.
Junior-Special5159@reddit
name and shame and reporting to the FSDO are the only options until it gets fixed internally; and good luck with that since the government can’t even keep itself open to pay ATC
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
We have DPE’s who have literally told me they are going to up their prices until people stop asking for checkrides. DPE’s charge 1500 for a private, instrument, or commercial initials. Then will charge them 1500 for a retest. Not having enough DPEs we’re forced to use them.
The standards for DPEs depends on their mood way too much. I’ve sent students to a DPE who’s in a bad mood and will fail them in the first couple of minutes for something ridiculous. And then they keep the full $1500 for the full checkride and got paid $1500 for 10 minutes of work.
I’ve seen DPEs test students allot recently on things outside of the ACS. For example doing steep turns under the hood on a private instrument checkride.
Endorsements DPEs know nothing. I had to write a TAA endorsement for a commercial checkride for a DPE. Heads up that doesn’t fucking exist. They will ask for a pic endorsement for an instrument checkride sometimes. Heads up they are rated and not doing the checkride in actual IMC.
Had a DPE tell me that a commercial student wasn’t legal for a checkride because we didn’t do 10 hours of instrument training after his instrument checkride. I understand logging 61.129 and the advisory circular covering the instrument training required for the commercial. I asked “would a private pilot not be able to go straight into the commercial without doing an instrument rating?” And he looked me dead in the face and said no.
The worst problem is that we can do nothing about it. We have to stroke their egos or we won’t get checkrides. We have to let them yell at us about stuff that is flat out wrong. Bring it up to the FSDO and they will always side with the DPEs.
This problem needs to be fixed.
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