Car Repair Costs Are Exploding And It’s Not Just About Tariffs | Carscoops
Posted by Funny_things_online@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 301 comments
Posted by Funny_things_online@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 301 comments
upsidedown6737@reddit
Got in a minor accident, front right at like 15km/h, looked like 3-4K at most, but with a new headlight, intercoolers, new bumper, paint, etc it was supposedly 10k, insurance obviously makes it a little higher, but if I fixed it myself it'd probably be at least 7.5k. All in CAD$, luckily I have a rare non technology package car with no blindspot/acc/lane assist so that probably kept prices down.
twiggymac@reddit
Personally I don't think the 3000 dollar bumpers and headlights with infinite sensors is helping. Obviously the safety aspect of the sensors and cameras are huge but they end up making fender benders literally thousands to repair.
the_lamou@reddit
The thing is, none of those sensors should cost anywhere near that. They aren't especially good sensors, and there aren't nearly enough electronics in the bumpers themselves to justify the cost.
I was looking at getting a backup and dash camera on my project car and spent hours trying to find one that had remotely acceptable video quality and frame rate. It ended up being cheaper to get a Raspberry Pi 5, a $60 4k mini camera, and build a custom overlay and my cobbled-together jank still works better than the backup camera in my $170,000 daily driver.
It's not expensive because of the sensors. It's expensive because it can be.
LordofSpheres@reddit
The problem with this argument is that the Raspberry Pi and the $60 mini camera are going to fall the fuck apart after a few thousand miles of road usage (at most) from vibrations and heat cycles and bumps and seeing varying voltages and all the rest of the problems that actual road use entails.
And maybe that won't be true for your setup, maybe you did it right or maybe you'll be lucky or maybe both. But for a huge amount of the products you're going to get, the solders will fatigue and crack and fall apart, the lens will shatter from heat cycles or thermal shock, the processor will shit the bed in a dozen different ways...
Again, this may not affect you. It may never happen at all or maybe it just won't happen in the total amount you drive your project. But for an OEM like Audi who have to use the same (or similar) system across almost 2 million vehicles per year, and have that system survive for 100,000 miles (example) on average, these are huge considerations that drive the price of components way, way up because they're rated for the 80°C temperature deltas and the washboard roads and the times when the battery is supplying the wrong voltage (yes, should be controlled, but...) and all the rest of it.
the_lamou@reddit
Lol, no, and this little bit of common wisdom really should have died decades ago. There's nothing special about in-car electronics that makes them more especially rugged. Temperature in cars aren't especially excessive compared to temperatures in many modern computers, for example, and all of the vibration protection is handled through cheap quasi-decoupling mounts rather than through magic vibration-proof solder. And I can't even imagine what kind of unusual heat-cycling or thermal shock you think a bumper-mounted camera is exposed to that any other outdoor camera isn't.
Most modern electronics will easily stand up to automotive conditions without any kind of special ruggedization. And have been able to do so for decades. I've been building custom car audio systems, including carputers, since the late 1990s (and have had multiple 100k+ mile examples). I'm very much familiar with "automotive-rated" SOCs and SBCs. There really isn't anything special there that makes them uniquely tough. But even if there were, you can purchase automotive-rated SBCs for roughly 25% more than a standard RPI, so even if they were somehow massively different (I promise you they aren't — virtually all electronics can withstand an "80° C Delta", a completely meaningless term without a defined time-frame), it still wouldn't come close to explaining why a bumper costs $6000 before install charges.
LordofSpheres@reddit
Oh, yeah, for sure nobody cares about solder reliability anymore, that's why the SAE just came out with a new standard for ensuring solder reliability. Absolutely totally a non-issue nobody cares about at all. By the way, that's board-level, meaning after all the vibration isolation you do.
I'm not even going to bother with the rest of that, honestly, except to point out that the cost of electrical components is in fact not solely responsible for exorbitant pricing of repair parts but is compounded by OEM reluctance to produce spares. Combine that with the cyber security legislation meaning VIN-paired parts from the factory and the desire to produce whole-assembly solutions for ease of manufacturing, and you get very rare, very high-cost parts.
But we really shouldn't pretend OEM engineers are idiots because they don't use cheap solutions and consumer electronics. They might just be being, you know, engineers.
the_lamou@reddit
Oh, I'm not remotely blaming any of this on OEM engineers. They're not the one making parts cost and quality decisions. I assume that conversation goes something like:
Engineer: "Hey, consumer 4k cameras have existed for like... over a decade now. Maybe we should move past 720p and at least get to 1440p quality. I mean, shit, Chinese SBCs are including 8k i/o on cutting edge boards." ** Executive: "Sure, what's the cost reduction per part?" Engineer: "Cost... reduction... ? I mean, we can keep increases to a few cents per part, but you realize that it's going to cost a little bit to upgrade from 15-year-old technology, right?" Executive:** "Yeah, no, that's not going to happen. Just refuse the parts we used last year so we don't have to waste money on those slackers in test engineering."
6 months later
Executive: "Why isn't anyone buying our car and talking about how great all these Chinese cars are?"
totpot@reddit
Reminds me of when Elon boasted about how smart he was because everyone else was using expensive "automotive grade" LCDs and he was using cheap computer monitor panels. Then they started to turn yellow.
an_actual_lawyer@reddit
Every single screen failed.
The worst part is that the mfg of the screens specifically told them they’d fail and made them sign a bunch of paperwork saying that the mfg wasn’t warranting any of them for any reason.
donnysaysvacuum@reddit
A lot of it is the labor and specific equipment needed to calibrate the sensors after replacement.
the_lamou@reddit
Sure, and I'm totally on board with fair labor rates, but a lot of the high cost is just the parts themselves.
chandy_dandy@reddit
The "fair labour rates" are $175 an hour. The reason maintenance has gone through the roof is because the labour rates went up.
And no the techs aren't seeing more of it. My guess is private equity bought the shops in a city and is gouging because they can, just like they're doing in HVAC, electrical and plumbing
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
It's mostly because my front end is now all adjustable and Jeep dealer techs wouldn't know what they're looking at anyway, but I found an indie shop that can actually road-force balance 35s the best I've ever had, and I'm never straying from them.
trail-g62Bim@reddit
I had a shop like that...until it also started to suck and I had to find a different one.
MrG@reddit
PE is such a cancer for the companies that get acquired
jazzmaster1992@reddit
Worth mentioning: it's not just "luxury cars" with this problem, it's everything. What was on a luxury car 5-10 years ago, things like blind spot monitors, backup cameras, adaptive cruise control and automatic headlights are standard even on many basic economy cars now. All the features and tech are great right up until you so much as clip into a drive through curb at the wrong angle and it becomes a possible "total loss" because the value of the car depreciated like a rock, and you just nerfed a random computer chip that requires an 8 hour job of tearing half the car apart to replace.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Rivian repair costs, for instance, have put me out of owning one. Could be argued as being luxury but nonetheless I plan on using anything like that for its intended case. If I fuck up and bend or break something that’s on me, but I don’t want to be out five figures every time.
UpvoteMagnet99@reddit
Rivian charging $775 to replace the 12v battery is pretty crazy.
StickyDaydreams@reddit
I have a 2025 R1S and this is the thing that scares me most about owning it. A fender bender might be $40k - and the insurance costs reflect that.
Fozzymandius@reddit
Those numbers are from a long while ago, in terms of what’s changed with the brand’s repair support. They have partial panels available now and repair guides for certified shops that involve just quickly cutting and rewelding a panel. The same $40k repair (that was a “fuck off” price when that video released) has shown up for $5-6k on the forums these days including paint.
Peter_Panarchy@reddit
Rivians also just plain aren't designed with repair in mind. The rear fenders are the same body panel as the fucking roof.
Innocent-Bystander94@reddit
That’s just pants on head dumb. We’ve been making pick ups and SUVs for decades. What a dumbass company.
Fozzymandius@reddit
They have a repair method for them and supply the subpanels for it now. It does mean that panels get cut partially off and rewelded, but it’s no longer an end of the world thing like when they first came out.
jazzmaster1992@reddit
It could be argued everything is luxury or at least "premium" now. This has been sort of a reckoning for me too, as I don't necessarily need ALL the bells and whistles, I enjoy some luxury, but it all comes at an increasingly higher risk that everything is far more expensive and complicated to repair.
NerdyKyogre@reddit
The other problem is that nothing is luxury anymore. It's the worst of both worlds: cheap cars now have high end expensive tech inside them, and luxury cars are trying to be sports cars with harsh rides, body-hugging seats, and cheap, lightweight materials. You somehow can't get a good simple cheap car or a well built, smooth luxury car new anymore unless you have fuck you money.
Depressed_Revolution@reddit
The drawbacks of having the idealogy that every fucking thing has to be global
birdseye-maple@reddit
Yeah I rode in some economy cars recently and was shocked at how bad the ride quality was. It used to be those cars weren't clouds but certainly not rough.
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
I find this is more a function of road noise than actual bad ride. When I'm in a shitbox rental I'm astonished at how loud they are when going over bumps and it gives the impression they are handling the bumps worse when its not that much different than my cars, but its far louder.
jazzmaster1992@reddit
One possible reason is larger wheels with lower sidewall. They "look good" but ride quality definitely takes a hit.
Magnus_The_Totem_Cat@reddit
You aren’t wrong. I myself am a weirdo that wants to be able to feel year on a dime if I drive over it. I daily silly aggressive suspension and tires, but again I am a weirdo. My wife’s Outback have low profile tires is just stupid. The first thing we did was replace the 20” wheels with 18” and it’s a great cruiser now.
NightFuryToni@reddit
A lot of car reviews also have a bigger focus on how good the reviewer hammers through the corner, so manufacturers tune the cars towards that.
jazzmaster1992@reddit
Damn, this is the first time I'm hearing this. It's weird how much people base their decisions on situations they'll almost never find themselves in, like trying to corner the Target parking lot like an F1 driver.
Aggravating_Sky_4421@reddit
That’s not really true. A proper suspension/tire setup can save you from a spin when you have to make a quick maneuver because some asshat didn’t check his blind spot. Is it rare? Sure… but so are needing seat belts…
Mjolnir12@reddit
You don’t need 20 inch wheels on a camry to do that though. Cars are more than able to have good handling with tires that have respectable amounts of sidewall. They put low profile tires on everything people it “looks good” not for any legitimate performance reason. The worst thing is when they put them on offroad trucks which completely neuters their capabilities.
jazzmaster1992@reddit
True, but companies like to advertise "spirited driving" because they understand that many people want something that at least feels and appears like it can do more than just run errands and perform commutes.
Bassracerx@reddit
Kind of like people buying heavy duty pickup trucks to tow the horse trailers they will never own? People have been buying vehicles that dont fit their current lifestyle for a long time. Its either they want to project a lifestyle they want others to perceive them as having or they just want to be cool because they own x or y vehicle and don’t buy the minivan or full size sedan they actually need.
Hedhunta@reddit
The death of the road yacht also has to do with this. There used to be these nice 4 door road boats that road like a pillow even at the lower specs. Theyre all gone in the favor of "sporty" looking sub compacts and sedans tuned for the nurburgring
tiagojpg@reddit
Makes sense. Time and time again handling and cornering is praised over just wafting through a normal road - which is what 90% of people will be doing.
birdseye-maple@reddit
I definitely think that is a big factor.
avoidhugeships@reddit
Current luxury cars are not lightweight or sporty at all. They have gotten very heavy and road feel is pretty much nonexistent.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
Road feel in almost all new cars is pretty much nonexistent. It isn't a problem exclusive to luxury cars.
DahSnorf@reddit
among other things electric steering assist is a big part of this
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
100%. Hydraulic steering offers a lot more feedback. And then a manual steering rack is the best.
cabs84@reddit
electric steering can be done well. all modern porsches have it, as do the 86/BRZ and many others
SkylineGTRguy@reddit
It feels like the only option is a Lexus tbh. They're comfortable and use Toyota parts
SizeableFowl@reddit
And in spite of this, BMW’s subcompact 2 series weighs as much as Ford’s last full size sedan. Cars are getting stupid heavy so they aren’r even as engaging to drive for the people that do enjoy that.
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
This is the worst part of EVs is they are bringing cell-phone manufacturing techniques to cars. Tesla has its gigantic unitary castings/pressings, that while great to build the car more cheaply, are horrific for repairs. Rivian with its massive body panels spanning almost the entire car with one panel and secured with mountains of adhesives, is equally bad.
You'd think EVs would be easier to build in a modular and repairable form because its so much easier to package the running gear, but the opposite has happened.
m1a2c2kali@reddit
But it’s not just rivian, it’s seemingly every company
jazzmaster1992@reddit
Is Toyota still relatively safe? I'm not talking about the campy answer of just buying a 15 year old Corolla, I mean an actual brand new Toyota with a factory warranty. Are they as likely to last 15-20+ years with minimal issues as long as the owner follows a maintenance schedule? Obviously we don't know for sure, but I'm wondering if any first impressions or mechanical breakdowns have shown them maintaining the same reputation, or slowly getting worse as well.
siuol11@reddit
As a recent owner of Toyota, I can tell you that their cars are cheap, uncomfortable, and not as reliable as they used to be. It's really their past reputation that is keeping them afloat in consumer sentiment. I had an '18 Camry that was nothing but problems, under warranty, none of which mattered when I went to them and they told me they weren't going to cover anything. Oh, BTW, they now use a 3rd party mandatory arbitration company if I didn't like their answer, the same shit Kia puts you through on their warranties. Overall, I think it's time that Toyota suffer from some negative public sentiment, they've been deserving it for a while. Their cars haven't been repair-friendly for a long time, and they've continually cheaped out.
p1aycrackthesky@reddit
Your experience is a pretty rare anecdote. My 23 Sienna has been the exact opposite. It's insanely comfortable and been dead reliable for the last 50k miles. I'm sorry you had a bad experience but I wouldn't put off all of Toyota because if it.
siuol11@reddit
I have had 3 Camrys, the first couldn't drive straight from the factory but they never told the owners about it until I got it and figured it out. The second was basic but decent, the last one was uncomfortable and drove like a bus. Maybe we have different experiences because I got the hybrid.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
I think it depends more on the specific model at hand. I think owning a new Camry for 15 years would be a very safe bet.
m1a2c2kali@reddit
I think they’ve had some issues with some of their new models like the tundra but shouldn’t be an issue under a factory warranty. But a factory warranty wouldn’t cover a fender bender that destroys those things anyway
Ran4@reddit
No. Rivian is on a completely different level of insanity.
moonRekt@reddit
I want a Lucid Gravity but on top of the $100k cost, I can get a used X7 and go to realOEM to find and part number to order that I may ever need. Or be at the mercy of Lucid…
phr3dly@reddit
I hit a deer in my $19,000 (new, but that included the $7500 rebate) Nissan Leaf. The front bumper and one headlight was damaged. Cost to repair was $5,000. Apparently the headlight unit alone cost around $2,000 to replace. For a single unit.
Amazing to think that it wouldn't have taken much more damage for this vehicle to be considered totaled.
Skensis@reddit
Smacked a deer with my car, luckily the headlights escaped damage, but replacing the bumper was still a 5k job, most just being the labor cost.
chandy_dandy@reddit
Headlights are the most ludicrously priced items alongside seats. If you add up 2 front sears and 2 headlights you usually get almost half the value of the car.
strongmanass@reddit
Drivers in cold, hilly rural areas with no street lights and active nocturnal wildlife. It's not a need, but it's a convenience I appreciate. I feel safer driving at night than I used to in my NB Miata. It's an order of magnitude greater cost for the lights, but I'd pay out of pocket for it. But yeah it's a problem if I need to involve insurance.
chandy_dandy@reddit
I find it ridiculous that insurance isn't legally mandated to be able to drive in the USA lol, you're just allowed to cause damage to other people and its kind of fine?
I appreciate that they work well, but there's no way in hell that they should cost as much as a used car for a light. It causes everyone's insurance to rise collectively because of this, same with the sensors.
The insurance companies have done studies, all of the safety tech is not reducing insurance rates but actually driving them up because while there are somewhat less crashes, the cost of repairs of small crashes have absolutely skyrocketed.
I'd be willing to bet if we stripped these parts from modern vehicles they would become reasonably priced once again very quickly, and honestly I think half the reason the Chinese companies can sell so cheaply is because they're better at tech and so don't use external suppliers for this stuff and don't get gouged.
I talked to someone that works at BMW, they don't even make the lights, it's an outsourced component and specifically this was regards to the laser lights, they were told that this new technology exists and asked if they want to implement it as an option, and they said yes without a second thought. I'm sure that the tolerances they're using are crazy or something, but you could probably get 80-90% of the effect for 1/2 or less of the price. I also don't like that the DRLs in modern cars are not replaceable, so if they go you have to replace the lamp unit, which again is outrageously expensive.
seeasea@reddit
Basically, Nissan leaf is a 12,000 car with+8,000 in headlights 😆
TurkeyBLTSandwich@reddit
Most body and auto repair places don't have sensor calibrators for your auto stop emergency braking.
I've noticed on YouTube that some auto repair folks with repair newer audi and bmws and just "eyeball" sensor placements and get error codes and clear them.
Can't imagine the amount of Tesla issues in the future once there's like a million used ones with 10 years of wear on them and the cheaply made ones too
Salty-Dog-9398@reddit
Tesla has actually gotten their act together and uses AI to “relearn” sensors as well as a number of other things in the background to make service easier.
Legacy automakers are going to be a mess because there’s no unified architecture controlling everything. Sensor has its own software to calibrate, system ECU has its own calibration, etc.
2005CrownVicP71@reddit
They generally sublet the calibration to a mobile tech. I don’t know where you’re seeing this but simply clearing codes doesn’t do anything. When those systems don’t work the customer will complain.
jdore8@reddit
Yeah, we just have the company we also own come in and do the calibration in the shop.
VirtueSignalLost@reddit
Technology usually gets cheaper over time, so there's hope.
hutacars@reddit
Yes, but the trend seems to be to shove more tech in to compensate.
jazzmaster1992@reddit
Maybe. Dealership greed seems to have no limit. Whether it's marking up cars or bending you over with labor and parts, they will make that line go up.
ChiggaOG@reddit
It comes to a point where owning a $250k carbon fiber supercar makes it an expensive repair. Damage to the front quarter panel? $40K. I'm pulling random numbers, but it gets the point across.
ryencool@reddit
"Worth mentioning" the big companies are pushing hybrids. Wanna know why? Its not because ots better. Its because the average hybrid takes 40,000+ unique parts to build. You wanna know how many unique parts my Model 3 has? 10,000. So not only are they making them impossible to self repair, theyre making them infinitely more complex, because they make most of their money on support/maintenence.
Musk is a douche, and ueah diy repairs on an EV are near impossible. It is the easiest to own and operate car I've ever seen. I put air 8n the tires and wiper fluid. I wont need to replace belts, brake pads, oil, transmissions. Its just far more simple.
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
You've got a transxle in there somewhere, and if you don't have to replace the fluid in it, some poor sap down the road will.
Innocent-Bystander94@reddit
Toyota and Honda have been making hybrids for 25 years now. Any shop can work on them. Having more unique parts doesn’t mean a Prius is harder to repair than a Model 3. It’s the exact opposite in reality. You might think having more parts also makes them less reliable, that’s also false.
HerefortheTuna@reddit
Yeah that’s why I just bought a used 5th gen 4Runner instead of a new 6th Gen. way less to break and go wrong, proven reliability, dozens of wrecked ones in junkyards for years to come
I also try to do most of my maintenance at home learning from YouTube
ahtoxa1183@reddit
Hanging on to my ‘19 TRD OR like a gold nugget and hope some fool does not total it. It is paid for, modded, wheeled and repaired as needed without all the astronomical cost nonsense I’ve been reading is this thread.
EZKTurbo@reddit
Backup cameras were mandated by Congress on all vehicles 2014 and newer.
Ran4@reddit
US congress... Doesn't help most people.
JaredGoffFelatio@reddit
2018* and newer
Virtual_Industry8553@reddit
Honestly this is the best case scenario usually, better than dealing with a car that now has reduced value due to an accident and questionable quality of repairs by whatever shop the insurance approved (usually the lowest bidder).
jazzmaster1992@reddit
I don't necessarily disagree. It is potentially messy though, when you consider that more and more people in say, the US, where driving is all but entirely mandatory, are paying more for cars than ever, with higher monthly payments, and increasingly less savings to put down on something else if that happens. Though the answer there would seem obvious, there's only so many used Toyotas and Hondas to go around after what COVID did to the market and supply chain, and accordingly those vehicles can be pretty expensive (we're talking $10-12k for a used, high mileage Camry in "fair" condition).
Officer-K-2049@reddit
I remember years ago looking repair costs for headlights with adaptive cornering - I can only imagine what it costs to fix the super fancy stuff now with a whole suite of features.
Zaziel@reddit
My old 1989 Cadillac DeVille had an extra corner light bulb that illuminated the direction you were signalling, giving you a bit more light for just a bit more bulb cost.. why have the bulbs MOVE, you can fix this with cheaper solutions, Christ.
6786_007@reddit
I regularly see Audi's get posted in Audi subs and FB groups of people asking how much the repair cost will be for cars that have been in accidents. Let me tell you the prices are absolutely shocking. Minor fender benders are easily 10k+ if a single head light is involved. Some people's cars are totaled out just over minor things it's crazy.
an_actual_lawyer@reddit
The only good news is that there are a lot of low mileage, low use parts on the secondary when those get totaled.
Bludypoo@reddit
I own. 2013 Mazdaspeed 3. The headlight is $700
ChrisKaufmann@reddit
My bulb is $19.95 now? Admittedly it’s almost a quarter century old and still going so no complaints.
BooBooMaGooBoo@reddit
And that’s pretty average, or near bottom of the range for LED headlights where you have to replace the whole housing. Although I will say in the case of headlights, that’s maybe the only new tech that actually significantly increases safety for the driver, being able to see so much more than you can with halogens, but the trade off is you’re blinding a lot of other drivers if they don’t auto level.
Officer-K-2049@reddit
Jesus. For just one??
tugtugtugtug4@reddit
Someone turned too soon backing out of a spot next to me in a parking lot and just kissed my rear quarter panel and bumper right behind the rear wheel where the two panels met. the panel and bumper both got less than one square inch of damaged paint. To fix it they had to respray the entire rear quarter panel (which extends the full length of the rocker and above the doors to the front quarter). Seems crazy, but okay it was only 800 dollars for that. The rear bumper is plastic so they can't respray it and have it look factory so they had to replace it. Okay, not the end of the world, the bumper and various clips and parts is "only" around 800 dollars too. Final bill though was 5 grand. There was almost 3,000 dollars of labor just to remove the fucking bumper and sensors, reinstall, and recalibrate the sensors. Absolutely insane.
jmbre11@reddit
My headlights are less than $100 for the set. My wife’s $2500 each. That’s why the makers started putting f150 in the light or Subaru after markets can’t do that because copyright.
Droopy1592@reddit
My friends electric bmw suv was attacked in a parking lot by a random rolling wheel/tire combo and it caused 11k in damage
Looked like 3k of damage but bmw
OpneFall@reddit
11k in damage is what the insurance has to pay out because they have to quote dealer parts prices which are $$$$
I don't know BMW but many other names have third party suppliers for oem parts that are just $$
Of course body shops know this and take advantage of totaled cars, buying them, fixing them up, and selling them off to foreign countries. I once had someone take me "behind the scenes" on this and it's basically a racket.
p1aycrackthesky@reddit
Can confirm. Someone backed into my Sienna in a drive thru. Repair bill - 4k.
DDelicious@reddit
A golf cart rear ended a family member’s 2023 Sienna. Almost no visible damage but it ended up being a 5k repair because of sensors!
09Customx@reddit
If going through insurance and a halfway decent body shop, they have to repair as per the factory service manual. Blind spot and parking sensors need to be recalibrated (even if there isn’t a warning on the dash), replaced if they’re damaged. I do mobile calibrations for a living and that would run from us about $630 CAD, more if sensors need replacing, and apparently our prices are on the lower end.
Consistent-Throat130@reddit
Those costs are a good deterrent to fender benders, imo.
Like the whole point of those fancy lights and sensor arrays is to mitigate and avoid accidents. But those computers are only a compliment to the nut behind the wheel.
...and financial (dis)incentive is a good way to adjust the nut behind the wheel.
epihocic@reddit
Yes but those same sensors also help to prevent fender benders.
fiero-fire@reddit
And fun fact the techs don't get compensated anymore
BannytheBoss@reddit
The fact that CAPA parts can cost as much as or more than OEM probably doesn't help.
testthrowawayzz@reddit
The cost is the reason why I don't completely agree with people saying mandatory adaptive matrix headlights is the solution to all the headlight glare problems.
breakfast-clothes@reddit
Quite a flair you’ve got going on there god damn
twiggymac@reddit
The Lord ordained 60 degrees and 6 cylinders. Gobbless praise J 🙏
1dayHappy_1daySad@reddit
I have a 2003 hot hatch (Clio RS, EU only thingy) It was like $16k new. I got quoted, just for the parts for the cam belt service, $750+. 5 years ago that was the price of the parts + the labor at official dealership.
Ambitious-Yam1015@reddit
High repair costs raise everyone's insurance. The automobile and automobile-based living have become poor economic options.
withoutapaddle@reddit
You say that like people have options. I don't know a single person who could get to work, get groceries, visit family, etc without owning a car in my area of the US.
We have no choice.
Ambitious-Yam1015@reddit
We can try to bail the boat or give up early.
Ranra100374@reddit
This is why people should have fought for better public transit but no everyone wanted to just get a car. I'd argue the American public is at fault for not fighting harder.
Post-WWII, Americans literally embraced car culture and suburban sprawl and the tearing of the streetcars. NIMBYism blocks transit projects. People vote for politicians that prioritize highways over buses. And public transit is seen for "poor people".
The reality: Every time there's a proposal for better transit, bike infrastructure, or denser zoning, you see Americans show up to city council meetings furious about losing parking or having their neighborhood change. Then those same people complain about car costs and traffic.
So yeah - Americans chose this, continue to choose it, and now are dealing with the financial consequences. The "we have no choice" argument rings hollow when so many people actively resist alternatives even being built.
It's frustrating because the people who do want change are held hostage by the majority who still worship cars, and everyone pays higher insurance and repair costs as a result.
Ranra100374@reddit
Post-WWII, Americans literally embraced car culture and suburban sprawl and the tearing of the streetcars. NIMBYism blocks transit projects. People vote for politicians that prioritize highways over buses. And public transit is seen for "poor people".
The reality: Every time there's a proposal for better transit, bike infrastructure, or denser zoning, you see Americans show up to city council meetings furious about losing parking or having their neighborhood change. Then those same people complain about car costs and traffic.
So yeah - Americans chose this, continue to choose it, and now are dealing with the financial consequences. The "we have no choice" argument rings hollow when so many people actively resist alternatives even being built.
It's frustrating because the people who do want change are held hostage by the majority who still worship cars, and everyone pays higher insurance and repair costs as a result.
Ranra100374@reddit
This is why people should have fought for better public transit but no everyone wants to just get a car.
tekniklee@reddit
My auto insurance has almost 2x in past 3 years so I’m thinking yes
V48runner@reddit
Makes me think of all the insufferable car reviewers who complain when an older vehicle doesn't have AI powered LED headlights built into the infotainment system.
The next generation vehicle then has this feature and it costs $6,000 to replace a headlights module, instead of $120 for a replacement halogen module from the previous model.
Parking-Highlight-98@reddit
You just summed up every criticism of the Charger/Challenger/300 in its last 5 years before getting axed.
"Aging chassis, old, etc". Yes, that's what I want. That's not a bad thing.
Reddit-Bot-61852023@reddit
Which reviewers? Most reviewers I watch don't like all the new cluttered technology in cars.
Revenge_Holocaust@reddit
Even oil changes are more expensive these days. I take both my cars to the dealer every other oil change just so a mechanic can look over the cars for any issues I may miss, but I may just do them all from now on.
Off topic, but the story mentions 20% of car owners have $1000 monthly payments! Even the number with $600 payments is insane.
WarOnFlesh@reddit
serious question: how do you buy a car and have less than a $600 payment?
5.5% interest, at 60 months, with a $27.5k loan is $600 per month.
chandy_dandy@reddit
They believe you should pay in cash is the simple answer. There's a cluster of people who are vehemently opposed to any monthly payment because it makes it easy to overspend if you don't keep a tight track of your budget.
WarOnFlesh@reddit
I tend to agree with that, if that's all you can afford. If you make $200k per year, $2k in car payments aren't a big deal.
chandy_dandy@reddit
I don't disagree with the view necessarily but also it's why there's not much good value left in the used car market. Basic cars that run where I'm at are minimum 7k-ish now because its deemed so necessary for life that there's a massive premium at the bottom of the market too
WarOnFlesh@reddit
There are still deals out there, but you need to be able to do your own repairs to find them. I've bought a bunch of cars that had obvious problems that scare people away, and with a few hundred dollars in parts, they run just fine. Honestly, as long as it's not rusted out on the bottom, and the cylinders have good compression, I'm pretty sure you can fix any common car with less than $1k in parts, and common hand tools. Assuming you live near an auto parts store that lets you rent the more specialized tools.
If you buy something unique with hard to find parts, that plan doesn't work.
I can see how someone with a limited income can't afford to buy the car in cash, buy the parts in cash, wait for the parts to arrive, and then do the maintenance in the parking lot of their apartment complex over several days/weeks in order to end up with a fine running car for very cheap.
It's one of those situations where the poor stay poor. I can afford cheap cars because I can also afford to pay cash and afford to use my other car while I fix up a cheap car with cheap parts. Because I have my own house with a garage, a landlord isn't going to tell me i'm not allowed to work on cars om the parking lot.
So yeah. I decent car is at least $7k and you're probably going to pay 12% interest for that old of a car. You can get a better rate with a newer car, but then you're looking at $20k.
trail-g62Bim@reddit
Also, time. If you want to find a good used car, you need time to look and be ready/able to jump when you find the good one. Most people buying on the lowest end of used cars is buying because they need one now.
WarOnFlesh@reddit
yup. first rule of getting rich is to already be rich.
Revenge_Holocaust@reddit
Put a lot of money down. I always put about 50% of the total price down. I do not want to be underwater if I suddenly need to sell them. Before I had these cars, I had a Pontiac Grand Prix. It was $10,000 and I put $5,000 down to get it. Next car was a cheap Fiesta, did the same thing. If I couldn’t afford those cars, I would have bought something even cheaper.
WarOnFlesh@reddit
Oh, I see. So the way to have a lower car payment is to have more money. Good plan. I'm sure that advice will come in handy for those people with the high car payments.
Revenge_Holocaust@reddit
Yes, have more money by spending less...
I live within my means and I'm not some rich ass, I don't have a 6 figure yearly salary.
hutacars@reddit
If you have the money to put 50% down, it doesn't really matter. You could always just keep that money invested and growing, then liquidate whatever you need to cover the gap in the unlikely event you need to sell while underwater.
Lord_Ka1n@reddit
If you pay for the car it'll be $0!
RabidBlackSquirrel@reddit
Oil changes are so cheap and easy to do yourself, and the lube joint markup for full synthetic is silly. Full synth price is not materially different buying yourself, I can do oil and filter on my cars for like... $25? Drive onto ramps, do the deed, used oil gets curbside recycling pickup, done in like 20 minutes of mostly standing around.
trail-g62Bim@reddit
I didn't know this was a thing anywhere, but we don't even have regular recycling picked up.
capt0fchaos@reddit
Depends on the oil you buy mostly, I don't have a car to do oil changes on anymore but my motorcycle oil is $12.50 a quart, and I ended up needing 5 quarts so it was around $70 for all the supplies including a new filter. In some places you can't do free drop off of oil and filters even at auto parts store so that gets factored into the cost too.
Dooster1592@reddit
Paid $220 for a dealership to change my spouse's oil in their CX-5 while I was away for work once.
Once.
Been sub-$50 and a couple hours ever since.
india2wallst@reddit
That's how much Porsche or Audi will charge. You got ripped off. It's a fucking Mazda
Jack_Bogul@reddit
Current labor rate at my Mazda dealer is $205, it's $425 at Porsche.
Porsche bills an hour for an oil change, Mazda bills 0.25.
Parts are ~$50 for the Mazda, ~$100 for Porsche.
So a dealer oil change is ~$100 for the Mazda, ~$500 for the Porsche. A indy for Porsche will maybe halve the labor cost, but not the parts to ~$300.
india2wallst@reddit
You guys seem so happy paying 200 for an oil change at Mazda 🤣
klowny@reddit
As someone who owns both, not even close.
Current rate at my Mazda dealer is $205, it's $425 at Porsche.
Porsche bills an hour for an oil change, Mazda bills 0.25.
Parts are $50 for the Mazda, $100 for Porsche.
So a dealer oil change is ~$100 for the Mazda, ~$500 for the Porsche.
chandy_dandy@reddit
Mazda charges $200 for an oil change in Canada, pretty outrageous
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
I think it's sort of like the "recommendation" now to replace rotors at the same time as every pad change. Enshittification, but just because people don't know any better.
Skensis@reddit
A lot of time for more pedestrian cars new rotors are not a whole lot more expensive than resurfacing.
Though when I did brakes on my only Subaru... I just measured thickness at a bunch of points and did a pad swap only.
Dooster1592@reddit
IIRC I believe that's because modern rotors are pretty much manufactured with less "meat" on them, so to speak. There's less tolerance for removing material in the turning process before you get too thin.
I think this is one of those 'in pursuit of efficiency' things, but I could be wrong.
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
I'll be curious whenever these current ones are due. I put a caliper on my '12 Wrangler's rotors and they were definitely good for a 60K change cycle.
Skensis@reddit
That's more than what I pay for my BMW, and they give me a ride to and from work.
If I did it myself it would be like a $120 job and some cussing cause the oil filter is behind the engine.
Automatic-End-8256@reddit
Christ, I went to the Lexus dealer the other day for an oil change and it was like $150 for my rx350....
aviciiavbdeadpunk@reddit
anyone going to lexus for service while toyota is next door needs to get their money drained
ZeroWashu@reddit
that was how it was for Infiniti, just drive down to the Nissan dealer and they would do it for far less and not try to sell you on unneeded services.
Automatic-End-8256@reddit
Well it wasn't next door and I would rather spend the extra money and actually get a rental and not get treated like im walking into parole and probation office. Plus it shows up on the app under your service records
aviciiavbdeadpunk@reddit
its a lexus, who is seriously asking about service records?, thats a german problem lmaoo
ConfusedTapeworm@reddit
I will be asking about service records no matter how famous the brand is for their reliability. Even the most tankiest, most indestructible car requires maintenance and I would very much like to see if the expensive steel cage that I will potentially be trusting my life with has been responsibly cared for. Excuse me if I don't just take your word for it when you say "it's all good".
Automatic-End-8256@reddit
The people that can afford German and still choose Lexus, the people that dont want issues more than a couple extra features and a slightly nicer ride
jabba_the_nutttttt@reddit
Most people barely change their oil, you think showing them that you changed oil at toyota instead of lexus would scare them off? Wtf
Automatic-End-8256@reddit
It wont show up in the app if its done at Toyota so I would have to start paper record for the car...also is having a loaner and being able to drop off and pick up your car when you want worth nothing to you? Not to mention when I had a Toyota and went to the dealer there was always 1000 people there and took forever for everything. Maybe your time isnt worth anything but mine is
mortalomena@reddit
in my country Toyota and Lexus is the same, but for Lexus the hourly rate is 20€ more :D
Dopplegangr1@reddit
I had a macan and if I went to the dealer an oil change would be $500. Now it feels like cheating with an lc500 getting oil changed at dealer for like $110
Automatic-End-8256@reddit
Yea, I went to an independent my Porsche mechanic recommended and they wanted 120 to change the oil without a loaner. So honestly the dealer for oil changes isnt really that bad of a deal at all
FranklinRoamingH2@reddit
Yep. My dealer charges $90 for mine, includes car wash with Adams and free organic snacks/niche coffee. Plus they like working on mine because it's older/easy and in decent shape.
Ftpini@reddit
I’ve worked with Lexus dealers and Toyota dealers. $70 to have lexus do the service instead of Toyota? Any day of the week. Lexus dealers are night and day better than any toyota dealership.
lowstrife@reddit
I find the labor charges to really be where things are spiraling. I know there's a lot of stuff rolled into it, it's not just the guy's hourly salary as you have the advisors and rent and insurance and all that other shit. But man - seeing it go from $88 to $150-200 in 15 years is pretty rough.
xienze@reddit
The one that kills me are the near $1000 brake jobs. Like come on, you guys are professionals that have lifts and all sorts of tools, it should take like an hour tops to do all four wheels. And the pads aren’t that expensive either. WTF are they doing for all that cash.
OpneFall@reddit
Brake jobs make money to compensate for the shop losing money on a abs sensor on the wheel bearing that is completely fused into the hub
lowstrife@reddit
Brakes are the bread and butter profit center for any auto shop. The industry just loves to charge big margins on there.
chandy_dandy@reddit
Labour is 175 where I'm at, parts are the same as if you'd order them yourself just with a 3 times markup, thankfully you can order the parts and give it to them to have them change them, but I guess it's their way to do price discrimination, if you don't care enough they'll happily charge you the extra money
PotatoDrives@reddit
My mechanic in a very working class neighbourhood is $140/hr. They do good work, but that rate makes me feel better about doing the vast majority of my maintenance.
TheGreatGriffin@reddit
I'm on a LCOL area and even the absolute cheapest shop is $115 an hour, and those guys are just going to load the parts cannon and probably take 3 tries to fix your problem.
gumol@reddit
monthly payments are meaningless
hi_im_bored13@reddit
20% doesn't sound insane when that puts you at $165k/yr household, $115k take home, 10% of that monthly puts you at $960/mo
Now that price should include insurance, fuel, etc., but living costs don't directly scale with income so it is fine to go slightly higher as well
Revenge_Holocaust@reddit
True, assuming the whole 20% are financially responsible. Less than 20% of households make that much, though, and one big data point that’s missing is what they are paying $1,000 a month for. I’m sure there are plenty of owners with great credit paying for a high-priced truck or luxury car/SUV, but I’d love to see data on how many are not.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
yeah, but thats a lot of assumptions to make when there is nothing to suggest in the article it is out of lack of fiscal responsibility
And likewise I take issue with the article saying it is "high interest rates keeping loan payments sky-high" because its approximately in line with what 20% should be paying, maybe they're having to go with worse cars with higher interest rates this time around, article doesn't really prove that though
maybe its an issue just saying the article doesn't do much to prove $1k+ is out of the norm for 20%
Revenge_Holocaust@reddit
True, there is some info missing.
Head_Crash@reddit
That's insane.
I'm paying under $500 a month for an EV bought new.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
The 600 figure is almost worse as that is specifically referencing used car buyers.
Charitably these are 1-3 year old cars with a certified pre-owned whatever type of warranty, but that’s not necessarily always going to be the case.
Plenty of people upside down on 5+ year old cars for sure either way.
jazzmaster1992@reddit
Yep, used car dealerships, especially ones who deal exclusively with used vehicles like CarMax, add 1-3% or more to the APR just for pure profit. They draw out the loan period to make the payments lower because they know that's all people look at. They go in to buy a $20k car, but after making the last payment they may have paid $35-40k on a car that's worth $7k or less by the time they actually own it.
Tony-cums@reddit
Those monthly payments are relevant to other bills and their overall income. I don’t like those blanket statements.
costafilh0@reddit
Tell me something that's getting cheaper?
Yeah, that's rare, right?
Guess why? Because it's not that things are getting more expensive. It's that money is losing value every day.
You can thank your great government for this sweet cumulative inflation. Which is taking your wealth to pay for itself by inflating the money supply.
Funny_things_online@reddit (OP)
I luckily live outside of America and live in Europe where even normal people can have a good life. Unfortunately though enthusiasts cars are dissapearing left and right with not much left but a bunch of economy cars that are available new still have manual options.
platinum_toilet@reddit
Normal people live good lives in America. You are entitled to your opinion.
Funny_things_online@reddit (OP)
Well things are changing quickly.
Metalsheepapocalypse@reddit
Everyone want a massive truck/crossover/suv until the repair costs start coming in.
No one compares the prices of tires on their old midsized sedan to their new massive SUV
RAMBIGHORNY@reddit
Full size trucks and bona fide SUVs usually aren’t too bad because there’s space under the hood so they don’t suck up a million labor hours of disassembly/reassembly to get to
idontremembermyoldus@reddit
Clearly, you've never popped the hood on a modern diesel...
There's a reason why pretty much everything is a cab-off repair these days.
RAMBIGHORNY@reddit
Very true, I was thinking more of gas V8s
Metalsheepapocalypse@reddit
Usually yes, but some services require a complete cab off frame which is crazy
idontremembermyoldus@reddit
Yup, that used to be a Ford thing. Now - Cummins, Duramax - doesn't matter.
PotatoDrives@reddit
I bought a set of the best road tires money can buy for my Miata and they were half the cost of some middle of the road Cooper's I put on my F150
withoutapaddle@reddit
Just curious, what do people consider the best road tires these days?
3-4 years ago, I switched to Conti ExtremeContact Sport 02, and they blew my mind. I can take corners in my GTI at speeds that feel like I'm in a Lotus Elise, and that's probably only at 8/10th because the tires aren't even complaining yet.
Dedicated summer and winter tires were the best "mod" I ever did to any car.
Skensis@reddit
Hard to say what's the best, but PS4s are sort of bar for good performance street tires. But all the comparable tires from named brands are also pretty solid, with just different design compromises and such.
Consistent-Throat130@reddit
It sounds like you're ramping up gradually and probably don't need the warning... But y'know.
Be wary of this thinking. Shit goes wrong quicker when your have stickier tires - because you're going faster when shit goes wrong.
withoutapaddle@reddit
Definitely. I'm not ramping up anymore. I found my comfort level with these tires, and I haven't been pushing the limits any farther than that.
Tchukachinchina@reddit
I’ve got a 3/4 ton truck for plowing snow and some towing and hauling. 1 tire for that thing costs as much as 4 good quality brand name tires tires for my daily driver Honda Civic. Same for brakes, oil changes, etc, and it uses roughly 2.5 times as much fuel.
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit
I love having small tires with small steel rims, and a pretty high sidewall.
Sure they look ugly, but a full set of high quality tires is like $350, and if I do hit a pothole, I can simply get the rims repaired.
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
Glad I own a Tesla. Only maintance in 3 who years were tire rotations
Skensis@reddit
3yrs is a new car.... I wouldn't expect much real maintenance on a car that new. Even a gas car would only have the additional oil change. Nothing major should be done in that time.
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
No problem we can check in in like 5 years too haha. I would imagine my maintenance and repairs at that point will still just be tires. Even my break pads are lifetime expectancy.
For reference I owned a 335i before this and loved it but not the unreliability. Never have to fix anything on this one, it gets updates and gets faster, no warm up, no oil, etc
Funny_things_online@reddit (OP)
Tesla is not doing well.
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
Glad I own a Tesla. My car is doing just fine now sure what you mean?
Or are you trying to base the value of the product on the stock price, in which case any other name would have gotten you worse returns over the same 5 year period lol
Funny_things_online@reddit (OP)
You own a car from a company thats less relevant than ever before.
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
Got it CPO used for 21k instead of 60k, spend no money on maintenance, charge for 1/5th the price of gas, and have 500hp to all 4 wheels. I’m enjoying myself thoroughly despite your hater comment.
How about yours? Oh wait lol
Funny_things_online@reddit (OP)
Once I get a car it will obviously be ICE.
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
🤣🤣
Funny_things_online@reddit (OP)
I wouldnt trust a computer on wheels lol 🤣
StatusCount7032@reddit
LOL! You don't own a Tesla, even if it's paid off, the company lets you drive their hardware/software.
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
Ok bud 😂
The_Safe_For_Work@reddit
I'm going to stick with 2000 era Lexus vehicles as long as I can.
MrG@reddit
09 Highlander original owner and it’s plain, reliable, super capable in the winter and cheap.
aBigOLDick@reddit
Cheers to that, brother.
Trollygag@reddit
$200+/hr for labor is getting common.
There is now overlap in hourly rates for mechanics and lawyers. Let that sink in.
andyb521740@reddit
A good lawyer is way more than $200 an hour
falcon0159@reddit
Yup, I am often seeing legal bills at 800-1000/hr for decent firms at work.
Trollygag@reddit
But A lawyer isn't, yet still had to get a law degree and pass the bar.
While any random mechanic at an auto shop or dealership for the same labor rate potentially is no more qualified than having graduated highschool and bought some SnapOn tools.
Shops don't price tier the mechanic you get, they pay them $25/hr on average, a little more or a little less, out of that same $200/hr either way
Deathcon-H@reddit
Except mechanic wages are still only $25 an hour lmao
r_golan_trevize@reddit
The mechanics aren’t getting that $200
PotatoDrives@reddit
That's the thing. I don't know a single automotive mechanic that makes over $35/hr and you can't tell me a shop's overhead is $165/hr.
ViperThreat@reddit
Nah, it's usually way higher than that. Hell, for a lot of shops, the lease alone is nearly that much. Utilities, Insurance, Tools, Supplies, quarterly tax payments, etc... It adds up.
MightyPenguin@reddit
Well it is often times. My shop costs me $531.25 an hour split between 7 employees, 4 in the shop, 2 in the office, and me between both and this is with all salaries paid before any profit is made or savings, equipment upgrades or training etc. Overhead is huge and it is very expensive to run a legal and ethical repair shop these days. Car repair is not as systemized as many other businesses because there are an infinite amount of variables.
Trollygag@reddit
Hence why I phrased it how I did.
IonDaPrizee@reddit
I was quoted $4000 for a break job. The brakes cost around 10% in that at a retail store, I don’t think shops buy retail price. So around $3000 for just labor seems insane, I’m thinking to myself “do they think they have a phd or are a licensed physician?”
rg25@reddit
Learn how to at least do your brakes and fluids and it should hopefully save you some money over time.
su1ac0@reddit
It's far worse in the "body shop" type of work. My hot take is that anything subsidized by insurance inevitably skyrockets in cost.
The manufacturers hose the shops, the shops hose the insurance company, the insurance companies just spread the increase across all customers who barely notice a difference.
An important point in my favor is that 90% of body shops don't even do private work. They only do insurance funded repairs because it's not worth their time to fix and respray the bed on your 79 chevy silverado--they make a lot more money half-assing the rear quarter on an Altima being paid for by Allstate.
Jedi_Gill@reddit
This is my honest reason for buying electric this year. My repair and maintenance costs have been lowered dramatically.
Funny_things_online@reddit (OP)
A Lancer Evolution is not electric.
Jedi_Gill@reddit
I never said it was, you know you can buy an electric car as a daily. The Evo I had was sold 2 years ago, got an offer I could refuse. I knew in the next coming years, parts for the car where going to be harder to come by and I really didn't want to rebuild the engine every 5 years at the power level I was at.
StatusCount7032@reddit
Wait until a component breaks and it's out of warranty.
466rudy@reddit
I'm keeping my early 00's vehicles forever. I'm not happy we have socialized car insurance in BC so we all have to pay for parts for these complicated new cars.
StatusCount7032@reddit
$22k for a gearbox on a new Taco with the iForcemax Hybrid system. I am sure it'll go down - perhaps not! - in cost in the future, but not by much.
Wassup4836@reddit
There is no longer a “standard” markup. It’s whatever people are willing to pay. I bought an air filter at Napa for my f350 and it was $120. I thought that was insane but I knew I really needed one. I went onto rock auto and found the same thing for $21.79. I bought 2 from rock auto and took the other back. I’m not paying a 500%+ markup on a god damn $20 air filter.
This is literally our lives now though. Car repairs are absolutely insane especially for the price we are paying for the vehicle. At the end of the day we are slowly moving towards a “rent” economy so the rich will constantly have a source of income from the poor. The middle class will certainly die out.
StatusCount7032@reddit
Tesla: 'say what about a rent economy?' lol
Right on point comment, btw.
StatusCount7032@reddit
Over $36k warranty repair work for a Taco with their new iForceMax hybrid system. $22k for the gearbox itself.
Source: Is Toyota's Reputation For Reliability Slipping? This 2025 Toyota Tacoma Is On It's 3rd Transmission
$22k for a gearbox; that's insane! And no recourse - other than a willing dealership, but how often will that happened?!! - does a customer have if the manufacturer decides they're done and will not honor warranty?
iroll20s@reddit
It doesn't help that nearly everything is sold as an assembly now. You end up having to replace a $1000 assembly because a $0.50 plastic bit broke and you can't get just that bit.
megacookie@reddit
My car throws an error message because for some reason it's not 100% sure that it's in park when it's in park. Dealer quotes like $3000 to replace the whole shifter assembly which requires taking apart the whole center console and half the interior to get to. The likely culprit? Some 5¢ spring that holds a tiny magnet is bent a bit funny. I'll just deal with the odd chime.
Energy4Days@reddit
German engineering at its finest
Astramael@reddit
Something this article doesn’t mention specifically is the quality of parts. OEM parts are both dramatically more expensive, and typically dramatically better quality, than aftermarket parts.
Aftermarket parts quality is a real crapshoot so you end up servicing the same thing multiple times because the cheap aftermarket part you installed fails prematurely.
However, when replacing an alternator costs over $1,000, using that cheaper reman alternator may be the only way people can afford it. Which puts them into an unfortunate cycle.
Also people don’t think much about how the explosion in capability comes with a commensurate increase in complexity. Everybody is selecting the V6 twin turbo, automatic, AWD, with surround cameras, parking sensors, and a HUD. Compare to an I4 NA, manual, FWD, reverse camera only, no parking sensors or HUD. Less features certainly, but less to go wrong also.
There’s nothing wrong with either, but people should be making more informed choices about how the increase in complexity can increase cost at purchase time AND at repair time.
AbbreviationsKnown24@reddit
The quality of aftermarket parts is really bad and just seems to continue to get worst. You really have to look around to find out which aftermarket parts are quality for each application, or just bite the bullet and go OEM.
SecretApe@reddit
Really? This might be because I own a old MG, but its generally advised to go after-market parts for some old cars because the quality of OEM parts were never good to begin with.
Responsible-Meringue@reddit
Where can I buy this sensorless NA I4 car? I've been begging for anything simple for years. I'll buy it new I promise!
__qwertz__n@reddit
Lada Niva or Suzuki Jimny.
Unless you’re American of course.
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit
There arent any cars that fit that description. The only one I can think of is the Versa, but even that in its base form has quite a few sensors.
And it is also basically dead lol.
People simply don't want featureless cars, Subaru killed off the WRX base because nobody wanted a $33k car without push button start,smart keyless entry, heated seats, etc.
Responsible-Meringue@reddit
Supply shapes demand, they dont want a $33k featureless car. Globally simple cars sell like hotcakes typically as loss leaders and highly developed wealthy markets prop up the rest of the world. You the barely comfortable paycheck to paycheck US consumer is subsidizing the rest of the worlds car supply.
Fleet models are still fairly strippers in the US but retail can't buy them, and the only options are trucks.
Simple cars are 100% gatekept by automakers, the margins are smallest and detract from lux & upmarket offerings. So they eliminate high volume low margin and rely on wealth inequality to drive profits.
capt0fchaos@reddit
The mitsubishi mirage is pretty close to what you want. That's about it though as far as I remember
Astramael@reddit
I’m not sure if that exact thing exists in the U.S. market. Most people aren’t buying a V6 TT AWD with all the bells and whistles either. I was illustrating two extremes on a continuum.
However, my experience has been that cars with reduced feature sets don’t get sold in NA or don’t get sold for long. Buyers don’t want them. Which was part of my commentary, people aren’t thinking about these tradeoffs and probably should be.
FWIW I partly picked my car because it doesn’t have power seats, a sunroof, a HUD, parking sensors, and a bunch of other features I don’t care about. Trading away some complexity in one area for more complexity in other areas.
TenderfootGungi@reddit
Google the Toyota Hilux. Airbags and anti-lock brakes are options. They sell for like $15k in many countries.
Responsible-Meringue@reddit
Everywhere except the USDM womp womp
redmch257@reddit
While I agree, it seems like many of the more affordable manufacturers roll both desirable and less desirable options into packages. Like maybe I want the sensorless manual with leather seats...but wanting leather puts me in the higher end engine with sensors galore. Or maybe I just want the higher end audio, but can't get that without the 360 camera package. I enjoyed my wife seeking out aftermarket leather for her base CX-5 as the totally viable solution, and understandable why the dealership doesn't let you know why that is also an option.
Astramael@reddit
Yea equipment groups are incredibly annoying. I understand the desire to minimize SKUs, but it almost always feels like the groups are designed to upsell you with crap that isn’t related.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
Service is a super abusive and shitty industry to be in, and parts/materials/tool cost has exploded since 2020. Good shops have to charge >$200/hr for labor and can even still barely afford to pay their best techs $40/hr.
Deathcon-H@reddit
We are a 5 million dlollar a year company and have 6 techs and our best paid tech is 38 an hour lol
Head_Crash@reddit
They won't let dealers replace many parts. Entire assemblies only.
That drives costs way up.
withoutapaddle@reddit
It's not just cars either. I recently needed an appliance repaired, but GE would only replace a huge subassembly ($1500 with labor) instead of just the failed part (a bearing worth maybe $7-10).
I scrapped the appliance and will never buy GE again. Turns out they are a Chinese company anyway. Their appliances are done by Haier now. GE in name only.
an_actual_lawyer@reddit
I hate to tell you this but the replacement was likely also made by Haier.
withoutapaddle@reddit
It's not.
elislider@reddit
you're giving dealerships too much credit. they are only in the business of making money, not in the business of diagnostics or actually "repair" because that means they actually have to dedicate time and thinking. It way more profitable for them to say "the computer says replace the transmission, we can replace the transmission" and then when the customer declines the service because its $10k on a car worth $15k, its no worry or headache for the dealership. As long as the dealership sells cars, they will have customers, so they don't care about maintaining their relationship with existing customers (well, just the ones that will pay big money for things they dont need)
jib661@reddit
almost like car dependency was a trap all along
VIPERsssss@reddit
Once again, the conservative, shitbox-heavy portfolio pays off for the frugal investor!
Summers_Alt@reddit
Shops have lost the plot. My friend recently paid $225/hour for labor. He paid an extra “road readiness fee” since the shop was hours from his home and he wanted to make it back. His car was spraying coolant in a few hundred yards. Then they put him in the back of the repair queue to fix their own fuckup.
Dazzling-Rooster2103@reddit
Local dealership wants to charge $750 to turn the brake rotors.
At that point I might as well get brand new brake rotors, and pads.
Innocent-Bystander94@reddit
I’m surprised anyone still offers that. It’s been cheaper or just about as much to just get new rotors for years now.
Cessnaporsche01@reddit
12" rotors are still ~$400 minimum, O'Reilly's charges $25 per rotor for resurfacing. Considering rotors will last 100,000 miles easily, it's a no-brainer imo.
iforgotalltgedetails@reddit
I’m a dealer tech. We actually started it up again cause charging half hour of labour per rotor is actually cheaper than new rotors for some vehicles. Condition dependent on the rotors though.
ikilledtupac@reddit
Because private equity owns every shop in town. No competition. Just like plumbers and hvac and electricians and roofers and framers and builders and literally everything.
chandy_dandy@reddit
Finally someone gets it.
PE just owns everything, they don't have the same scrutiny that publicly traded companies do which means with some clever ownership structures you can make your monopoly not look like a monopoly at all and jack the rates on everything.
How else are they supposed to extract 15% annual returns for investors compared to 7% in the general market compared to 4% total gdp growth in perpetuity?
rkhan7862@reddit
yup
chebum@reddit
Renault is charging €6000 for rear seat armrest (just armrest, not the whole seat). It seems manufacturers sell new cars at loss and then try to make profit of selling spare parts.
jazzmaster1992@reddit
My understanding with dealer techs is they don't get paid by the hour, but by the job. Those high labor costs are sort of "subsidizing" the possibility of them sitting on their tool box eating lunch and scrolling on the phone for half the day, not making any money, then actually working for the other half. It's also why they charge diag fees and are incentivized to recommend all sorts of extra work to be done. It sounds a bit like the "movie theater model", where the theaterrs make no money on tickets so they have to sell a small popcorn, flat soda and 3 M&M's for $20.
an_actual_lawyer@reddit
Your understanding is wrong. Techs only get paid when they finish a job. The service writers usually get a commission based on what BS they upsell.
There are exceptions but that is the general setup.
8P69SYKUAGeGjgq@reddit
Yeah pretty much. However warranty pay is pretty universally shit because it's what the manufacturer thinks it would take to do the job vs customer pay where you generally get paid how long it actually takes to do the job.
Like in 2016 Lexus has a TSB for dashboard replacements in most of their cars going back about a decade. The most that any model paid was 2.6hrs. With a helper (hourly trainee) I could just about do it in book time. If I was on my own, I would have been losing my ass on that. Pretty much every warranty job is like that now, which is why I no longer work on cars lol
iforgotalltgedetails@reddit
Not all, there are some gravy ones out there - GM tech and former Toyota tech.
Not gonna mentioned them tho cause I’m not letting the wrong eyes get a look.
ConfusedTapeworm@reddit
I've seen the bill for a front bumper replacement on an Ioniq 6. Apparently the car in front bumped into it a bit too hard while trying to get out of its parking spot. Literally just a fender bender, no significant damage to anything on the car except the front bumper. The airbags didn't even pop (well the car was stopped with no one in it). It cost like half the entire car's price tag to replace that, I repeat, one front bumper. It was wild.
And now, that Ioniq 6 permanently has a huge repair bill on record. Its insurance (probably) shot way up, and the owner is gonna have a hard time explaining to any potential future buyer how their car is not actually crash damaged despite the service history showing an enormous repair bill.
chebum@reddit
I saw in ioniq5 that underseat harness costs $10K: https://www.reddit.com/r/Ioniq5/comments/1o2ahkp/ioniq_5_10000_nightmare_time_bomb_beneath_the/
RedlyrsRevenge@reddit
Coworker's family member had their 2018 Accord hit whole parked. Messed up the rear bumper, cracked one taillight and put a little roll in the quarter panel. Totaled with 75k miles on it. Nothing affecting drivability.
Ridiculous.
Astramael@reddit
That’ll do it almost every time. Damage to the monocoque escalates cost enormously.
elislider@reddit
too must cost involved in fixing integrated body panels
ahtoxa1183@reddit
On top of what’s been mentioned here, where I live shops now have a surcharge of 2% if you pay with a credit card, which is due to popularity of the cash-back cards. To no one’s surprise, the merchants were stuck with the cashback fees that the CC company offers to consumers as cashback and it’s become unsustainable for smaller businesses.
Scazitar@reddit
"However, record-high shop bills means the true saving might not be as big as they hoped"
No they are, even with higher repair costs lol. That's the fucked up part.
In this era of $700-$1000 a month payments. We're talking trying to justify 10-12k a year.
Like i could pay that if i really wanted to but right now I can pretty much buy anything i want used even if it's impractical as fuck and I'm still coming out way on top lol. I don't know how they solve that paradox but that's where my heads been at with all of this.
PotatoDrives@reddit
Yeah I just bought a 15 year old high mileage Tacoma because I'd rather replace everything on it than pay $1000+/month for 7 years.
skooma_consuma@reddit
For $1k a month you could replace literally everything on that truck within a year, assuming you do your own work. I bought a very rusted out (body's good though) '05 Outback and in the past year, for about $1.6K total, I replaced the front and rear subframes and every single suspension component/bushings, wheel bearings, knuckles, struts. Resealed the valve covers and engine/trans pans, replaced every fluid, and all new front and rear calipers and rotors. I will never buy a newer car that is more difficult to maintain and requires the dealer to reprogram stuff.
dante662@reddit
I bumped a neighbors Rav4 front quarter panel. Figured, ugh, it's going to be a grand to get the panel, spray/match, and install.
Ended up being nearly $4k because there are radars behind the panel that also needed to be replaced...and the new ones had to be factory calibrated.
AThousandBloodhounds@reddit
We drive a 2001 Suburban and a 2005 Solara. They're both in good shape, reliable and relatively cheap to maintain. I'm not looking forward to the day when we have to replace either one. Modern cars are a money pit.
coconutpete52@reddit
I keep my 2008 VW Golf for nostalgia reasons. But it’s also sort of for this.
brettyh@reddit
Myself and every good tech I know has SPRINTED away from that trash-can trade. Fact is: Cars suck to work on and require lots of tools/specialized knowledge. The costs are only going to get worse. I won't touch your car for less than $200/hr.
mortalomena@reddit
This year my repairs and maintenance has been 120€ + a 60€ MOT/TUV. Front brake discs, 0W-20W full syn + filter, coolant change and spark plugs.
Not even the cheapest parts, quality German aftermarket or Bosch.
It gets expensive if you use OE services and parts.
MayaIsSunshine@reddit
This is why I won't own anything older than a car from 2012
JJ_Shiro@reddit
Had a deer hit a rear quarter panel. Car was still perfectly drivable after. The shop adjuster even mentioned it would have been way worse had I nailed it head on.
The final bill ballooned from a $3.5k estimate to almost $14k.
kon---@reddit
Labor rates are batshit. Single parts have enormous price points and value was taken outside years ago to get a bullet behind the ear.
This shits going on on two wheels too.
Padouch1038@reddit
Just to see in the EU, what they are making mandatory.
All the electronics, the sensors that are required so that the car can be sold is insane.
Just to make it into perspective. In 2014 when Škoda Octavia mk 3 came out, the cheapest model was 340 000Kč. When MK 4 came out in 2021 the cheapest model was 640 000Kč.
My friend works as a technician for Škoda dealership. They had a MK 4 came in after a routine collision with a rabbit. The front bumper with the sensors and work was 270 000Kč... The work alone with the mapping and calibrating all the sensons was 120 000Kč. Just to make a perspective 250 000Kč is roughly 10 000 USD.
The median income for a person in Czech Republic is around 1300 USD a month....
Funny_things_online@reddit (OP)
We live in a age where the wrong people are regulating cars as well as a lot of automotive CEOs not being actual enthusiasts.
kon---@reddit
There's no car people in the room. They've been shuffled out in favor of recurring revenue model people.
Funny_things_online@reddit (OP)
Nissans new CEO is a car person.
ikilledtupac@reddit
It’s about private equity owning all the repair shops. It’s basically a monopoly.
Funny_things_online@reddit (OP)
Welcome to America Incorporated!
HispaniaRacingTeam@reddit
Exploding like Ford Ecoboost engines
synkrox@reddit
Manufacturers are charging whatever they can get away with for spares. The price they make you pay has absolutely no correlation with the actual cost of the parts.
I'm all for a bit of profit but it's quite obvious that these bits of plastic and LEDs are coming with a 10,000% markup.
mayorLarry71@reddit
You can thank the extreme over-complication to forced fuel economy standards, obnoxious emissions rules and the industry falling in love with making the car basically drive itself. Sucks.
Enjoy all the "Check Wallet" lights.
spongeloaf@reddit
The industry didn't fall in love with cars that drive themselves, the consumer did. If most people wanted manual windows and no AC in the smallest cheapest thing that would pass safety and emissions regulations then the most popular car in America would be the Kia Soul, not the F150.
jazzmaster1992@reddit
I think this is multi-faceted and a little more complex than that. It's not all a conspiracy to rob "car people" of higher horsepower, larger displacement NA engines.
For starters, insurance companies are more than likely adjusting your premium based on whether your car has some kind of "nanny state" feature like lane keep asssit or collision avoidance because it proactively prevents you from causing an accident and making them get sued on your behalf.
With how much automobile ownership is all but entirely mandated in North America, people need to be safe. That means more sensors and tech to avoid crashes, and overall higher vehicle safety standards. Yes, you can have the 5.0 V8 and the option to turn off TC while you send all that power to the rear wheels, but let's not pretend there isn't a reason insurance companies see you as more of a liability for that reason. Especially considering all the car-related subs I see on here where people are posting videos of themselves drifting and doing triple-digit speeds on public roads.
carsarefuntodrive@reddit
How about LESS distracting tech, and MORE pay the fuck attention to driving? Yeah, I know, that's crazy talk.
azurite--@reddit
Unfortunately I think your rationality is going to be lost on them.
Educational_Age_1333@reddit
Larry you got some shit takes bro
d0ugfirtree@reddit
My GF ran over a small log with her Audi Q5 trying to go to a hiking trailhead on a dirt road. Completely fucked the steering rack and the right front tie rod. Total repair cost ended up being like $7k because a whole bunch of sensors and electronics ended up breaking, and we had to go to the dealership because my usual indy mechanic didn't have the dealer tools to fix that stuff.
DK4E2XFpbETJrj@reddit
Everyone getting a taste of what Rover owners have dealt with these last two decades. It isn't even the spiralling cost of repairs that bugs me - its availability. Reputable shops are fully booked weeks in advance, toss in back ordered parts and your car is potentially out of commission for way longer than is reasonable.
throwawayainteasy@reddit
Man even the crap ones are around me. Unless you're going to one of the 15-minute pull-through places, a lot of places for an oil change here is a multi-day turnaround which if fucking nuts. If you're going to Firestone or Goodyear or the like, there's a solid chance you're not getting your car back until the next day.
T-888@reddit
Shite aftermarket parts... or crazy expensive OEM parts.
Majority plastic or composite-like mounts, instead of metal...in places like oil pans, ffs. (FORD)
More reliance on composite-like materials that get brittle over time and crack...
You need a scanner, for a scanner now. And that scanner has a $300+ monthly subscription... and the tech has to take a 10 hour class to be certified to use the scanner.
Every sensor now ad's at least 1 hour + to the repair time because it will need to be recalibrated. If it can't be done in house, a 3rd party comes out to do the scan.
Very few fuses anymore, it's all unserviceable modules connected to modules.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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Trackrat14eight@reddit
I work for one the top three car brands from Germany, brand new these cars are AMAZING, and even though I’m around them all day and know how to repair them, I don’t want one for more then 6 months 5,000 miles. Not that I can afford any of those cars.
Successful-Growth827@reddit
Of course they're going to grow. As more sensors for safety systems become mandatory, and as consumers want more "luxury" features in their regular cars such as touch screen displays that give you navigation, play games, have constant Internet connection for OTA updates, have enough power to accelerate the car like an NA V8 with MPG of an NA I4 or I3, drive like a Lotus Elise while floating over bumps like a Rolls Royce Phantom, and/or cram all the comforts of family car and utility vehicle into one package; as we begin to ask our cars to do more and more, it's going to cost more to maintain it. Tariffs only exacerbated this problem.
The vast majority of consumers want a car that does everything and more, but when it comes down to living with it, can only afford to maintain a 1998 Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic.