A question for the Serbian friends
Posted by itlo@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 122 comments
Why do you feel offended by the Albanian hands gesture which symbols the double-headed Eagle? I mean the double-headed Eagle is also your symbol, as it is to the Montenegrins or even orthodox Greeks. All those who got this symbol should embrace the gesture or at least not feel offended by it.
Specialist_Elk140@reddit
I mean it is about context, the three fingers are okay until it’s involves degrading past “enemies”.
CataphractBunny@reddit
Yeah, no. 😂
gemcey@reddit
Yeah they are. You’re just mad you don’t have a salute. Oh wait…
CataphractBunny@reddit
No, they're not. Croatia find and banned a dumbass that was flashing them a few months back.
What do you mean?
lonefunman1@reddit
High school graduates from Slavonski Brod posed for a photo doing Sieg Heil. To be fair, there's couple doing closed fist and even one girl doing three fingers, but I'm afraid I can't allow argument of diversity based on this. They were probably just caught in motion too early going for that 5 fingers straightened out, palm downwards, arm at 45 degree angle.
CataphractBunny@reddit
What does that have anything to do with me "not having a salute; oh, wait"?
livefromnewyorkcity@reddit
Revisionism by the aggressor
CataphractBunny@reddit
?
jajebivjetar@reddit
Nazis took the oath with 3 fingers
toros_of_tmutarakan@reddit
Its called Schwurhand in German ("oath/testimony hand") its a gesture far older than Nazis, and still used in many context where you solemnly swear to do something
Sea_Top9815@reddit
As a Greek i will speak. This symbol is the Byzantine symbol. Seeing muslim Albanians make the gesture of the eagle it's funny though 😂 its like you see a Turk or an Arab holding the Cross 🤷🏻♂️ 😁. Isn't it?
visoku@reddit
What an unintelligent and lazy comment to make. Can I please ask you to take a moment and think if it would be wrong for you as a modern Greek to be proud of an aspect of ancient Greek culture even though ancient Greeks were pagans and modern Greeks are Christians?
First-Egg-713@reddit
Albanians were a part of the Byzantine empire, fought for the Byzantine empire… why shouldnt they be “allowed” to use it lol?
Sea_Top9815@reddit
Sure they was. But also they were loyal to ottomans and Greeks fought mostly against those ones rather with Turks.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Life gave us lemon, we made lemonade.
Rare_Masterpiece_586@reddit
Gjergj Kastrioti rolling on his grave. You’d surprised what flag he raised in Kruja.
Sea_Top9815@reddit
Gjergj Kastrioti fought against the ottomans and after his death the albanians became (not all) loyal to them. So of course he rolling in his grave if he can see how many became muslims.
Tomorr3@reddit
We didn't become loyal to anyone. We just look after own interests, like everybody else. (Like we did when we became christians.) Enough with this biased nationalist interpretations of history.
Fine-Ear-8103@reddit
Greeks didnt fight much albanians fought for the greek side and the turk side so it was really just albanian civil war in your country.
Prior-Leave-6610@reddit
Albanians are so low level IQ folks, they can’t comprehend irony behind that
Tomorr3@reddit
Our symbol comes from Gjergj Kastrioti. We don't put any religious meaning to it. It represents any Albanian no matter their religion.
Playful-Falcon-6243@reddit
Sure. Let’s turn it to a religious symbol now why not lol
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
How do you know they are muslims. Did you ask them one by one 🤔
Sea_Top9815@reddit
Well the kosovars? Aren't they?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Chances are that 1 out 10 kosovars are either orthodox, or catholic.
Sea_Top9815@reddit
And in China they have many Christians what that means? that China is a Christian country? 😁
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
China is a secular country.
Sea_Top9815@reddit
Sure buddy. Turkey too you know.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Yes, Turkey too.
Sea_Top9815@reddit
So Turks are not majority muslims because its a secular country, right?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Turks are not making the eagle gesture, are they?
Sea_Top9815@reddit
No but they made something worse. Hagia sofia avmosque.
Wanna continue with your smart games mate?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
What has it to do with egale gesture, did Erdogan do it while visiting Haghia Sophia 🤔🧐
albanussy@reddit
Lmaoo what a simpleton😭
DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit
R/psejerrotkari moment
JimbosBalls@reddit
Oh for heavens sake live and let live..
PasicT@reddit
Perpetually offended, ashamed of nothing.
alpidzonka@reddit
Someone said it means "greater Albania" and not just Albania, and then people repeat this. It's obviously not because of the eagle itself.
Dix_PourCent@reddit
We have done it in the Euro Cup recently, and Serbia was not even involved in the games with us.. Dua Lipa does it in every concert, in Australia, the USA, the UK, Latin America, Africa, or wherever... and there are not a lot of Serbs going to her concerts... We do it with tourists, and tourists do the eagle together with us.
We do it simply to say Albania... or Shqipe (eagle)... it is a form of celebration, referring or identifying ourselves (to another Albanian watching or seeing the picture) as an Albanian. To say I am Albanian or from Albania
or just celebrate to say -- Shqipe! I am happy with what I have done! --- It is a form of celebration, identification, and sharing joy with other Albanians.... at least for the Albanians in Albania.
Everyone can take whatever gesture in the world (peace sign, i.e.) and say it is offensive to me... no matter what it is used for... this has happened to you with our eagle.
If it is a sign of disrespect of the Albanians to the Serbs, can you explain how we arrived at that? The rationale that the average Albanian used to figure out that a two-headed eagle made with the hands would piss off every Serb alive? There is none! And being no reason at all looks like it is just the vision of an Albanian identifying himself as an Albanian pisses you off... and this is bad, and I would not like to be the reason. It would not be good for all of us as the inhabitants of a region that has seen enough conflicts.
ljukomir@reddit
Do it when you play in Tirana against France or sum don't act dumb you do it only when playing against us
Dix_PourCent@reddit
In fact, no. We have done it in the Euro Cup recently, and Serbia was not even involved in the games with us.. We do it with tourists, we do it just to say Albania... Shqipe... it is a form of celebration to say Shqipe (eagle), referring to ourselves (to another Albanian watching or seeing the picture). -- Shqipe! I am happy with what I have done! --- It is a form of celebration and identification.... at least for the Albanians in Albania.
Everyone can take whatever gesture in the world (peace sign, i.e.) and say it is offensive to me... no matter what it is used for... this has happened to you with our eagle.
If it is a sign of disrespect of the Albanians to the Serbs, can you explain how we arrived at that? The rationale that the average Albanian used to figure out that a two-headed eagle made with the hands would piss off every Serb alive? There is none!
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Imagine as a Serb watching all game of Albania against any other country, and when the match is over, be mad at those mf for not doing the gesture 🤣
ljukomir@reddit
The stereotypes make themselves,81 iq
WorldClassChef@reddit
It’s always done in response to animals in the crowd chanting death threats and ultranationalist remarks.
Your crowd truly lived up to those stereotypes attributed to your nation.
ljukomir@reddit
Took you long enough to think of this with your underdeveloped brain,I guess then you had to be in the stands and suddenly understood serbian to know what they were talking about?
WorldClassChef@reddit
It doesn’t take learning Serbian to know that they were chanting death threats and whatever other stupid shit they say. This was literally caught on video.
I wouldn’t be surprised if you were among those hideous goblins in the crowd.
ljukomir@reddit
again your underdeveloped brain refuses to think,expected
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Albanians make such gesture in every event now. Serbia only made it more famous and now even foreign tourists are making it for insta photos.
44-47-25_N_20-28-5-E@reddit
Bro, our newspapers have translated that as a symbol of "great/big Albania" that includes parts of Serbia, Greece, half of Macedonia and so, you know what I'm talking about. Also with our people there's a thing that they think a word "šiptar" is offensive to Albanians which is funny to all my Albanian friends. So basically when you show your eagle you are national threat, also to other newspapers when a Serbian shows three fingers they are automatically "četnik" sooooo it's just media nonsense vlla.
GTamightypirate@reddit
I never felt offended, I even like when you show serbian eagle symbol!
keep doing it!
toros_of_tmutarakan@reddit
Not me personally, but some do see it as provocative, not unlike how eg Croats see the three-finger salute. (in spite of Trinity being xommon to vast majority ot Christians) Context matters too.
LegioX89@reddit
We actually don't give a fuck, for the most people it's just because YOU do it, if you go with the peace sign or whatever we would still throw shit at you 😂
As for yesterday thank you,it was the best possible thing our idiot of a president and his 5k ćaci minions could witnessed
Odd-Interview-5131@reddit
Based serbian, respect.
KDtheDictator@reddit
based.
RebootAndPray@reddit
I personally don’t care about it, and I don’t care about that whole drama either. But let’s not pretend that gesture was innocent or “just cultural.” Context matters. When that Swiss player of Albanian origin flashed that symbol at Serbian fans a few years ago, it wasn’t some “we’re all neighbours and share Byzantine heritage <3” moment.
Of course, our sensationalist media immediately picked it up with the “scandalous anti-Serbian gesture” headlines - which is also stupid. I don’t think the gesture is anti-Serbian on it's own. But let’s not be naive: in the context of a football game it is a provocation, and everyone knews it. You can’t provoke and then act shocked when someone reacts (not you personally ofc).
DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit
Were the insults towards Xhaka for his Albanian heritage the “we’re neighbors and share Byzantine heritage <3” moment?
Of course they did. They consistently attacked their Albanian heritage before the match even begun. But for Serbs, anything Vucic’s media spews is propaganda, expect when it comes to Albanians - that’s when they are reliable apparently.
Absolutely true. But it’s also funny how you guys overlooked the disgusting chants throughout that match. But you said it best: you can’t provoke and then act shocked when someone reacts*.
gayhotelultra@reddit
Who's "you"? I wasn't out on the field chanting against Albanian players, those are some morons unconnected to me.
One day people in this peninsula will realize that you don't beat racism by doubling down.
RebootAndPray@reddit
Fair point, the chants and insults at game vs Switzerland were disgusting, no argument there. But two wrongs don’t cancel each other out. If Serbian fans were being assholes, that’s on them. But when Xhaka responds on the field with that celebration, it's a conceous escalation. That’s what I meant by “context" when I replied to the OP.
And yeah, Serbian media milks it to this day for ragebait, but that doesn’t rewrite the moment itself. It’s entirely possible for two things to be true at once - Serbian fans acting like xenophobic idiots and Albanian players (Xhaka and now this guy) knowingly throwing fuel on that fire for dramatic effect.
I’m not defending the fans behaviour (I didn't watch this last game but I believe it was still shitty) but let’s not pretend the players are just expressing pride in their heritage either. Everyone involved knows exactly what they are doing. Which is again a reason why I don't like this "rivalry".
Rare_Masterpiece_586@reddit
Curious to know what would be the difference if instead of doing the hand signal, he pointed to the eagle on his chest? The emblem of the kit
RebootAndPray@reddit
In this last game? In my opinion, probably nothing. Players do that all the time. There's a subtle difference between pointing at a badge which most people will get as “I’m proud of my team/nation” and a whole salute on the chest which people watching the game will interpret as “I’m Albanian and I’m shoving it in your face!”.
Same way if a Serbian player points at the badge versus throwing up a three-finger salute in the air. Both are symbols, but the vibe is different.
Incvbvs666@reddit
Well, it's the same was you should embrace being called 'Šiptar', is it not?
The fact that both countries have double eagles does nothing to ditract that showing the Serbs the double-eagle sign is an obvious nationalist provocation that both sides understand very well as such.
gayhotelultra@reddit
Be proud of your country all you want, but if you respond to the existence of a Serb with it, it becomes pretty clear what you mean by it.
Apprehensive_Rub4924@reddit
Because even for Balkan standards you guys are nationalistic on another level. It’s just annoying (and slightly primitive).
And don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that some Serbs wouldn’t be annoying too if we won but those type of Serbs would in most cases (like 80+%) be ascribed to the ruling sns party (i think at this point I don’t need to clarify what the majority of Serbs thinks of them) while in Albania its not really party-bound, rather more of a state of mind of all the people.
Double-Purchase7295@reddit
Ye sure,try being attacked from your neighbours constantly and still survive,makes you pretty patriotic,but you wouldn't know since you were under the wings of mother Russia.Read about ww1 and London conference before that,I'm not taking it to the 18th century.And being under ottoman rule and the only one that wasn't allowed schools or religion,because according to history,were pretty scared from crazy mercenaries.But ye,lovely neighbours we have,shitty but it's our own Shit,didn't steal or expand,tried hard to survive.
rlesii@reddit
It's a bit odd that you ascribe Albanians as being "nationalistic on another level even for Balkan standards".
I think there's a difference between nationalism and patriotism. Nationalism leads to pretty ugly things; patriotism does not. I would ascribe our actions as patriotic rather than nationalistic.
No Albanians (whether in Albania proper, Kosovo, or North Macedonia) have committed any mass crimes against their neighbors, fueled by nationalism alone. You'd be ludicrous to argue otherwise.
On the other hand, you guys have a pretty ugly and recent history on this topic...
HeyVeddy@reddit
I think the patriotism is annoying to everyone because the Balkans are a shithole but Albania is a bigger shithole than most other states in the region, let alone Europe.
It's a bit like, if swiss or Norwegian people did patriotism to the level Albanians do, we would be like "Jesus they're annoying" but when it's a shithole country, it's annoying and cringe.
Since you guys aren't Greek/slavic and have your own language, the cringe patriotism really unites the rest of Balkans imo
Tomorr3@reddit
Definitely not true. This is just your subjective opinion.
HeyVeddy@reddit
I'm not sure, being that I'm from the Balkans and from what I hear from people that visit, etc. doesn't mean that Albania is ugly or bad people or bad food. It just means the bragging of Albanians doesn't match the shithole level of Albania
Tomorr3@reddit
Tourists' opinions are not a basis for comparing the quality of life between countries, which you just did.
We are not bragging, nor do we say that Albania is a heaven. But then again, you can say the same applies to every nationality in the Balkans. Not a single one has of us has any reason to be proudly nationalistic if we go by your parameters.
HeyVeddy@reddit
Yes this is my only point really. To be loud and proud to people who don't know your country or only heard negative things is just wrong imo. And that's what a lot of Balkans do, which is wrong. But Albania is famous for their overtly external patriotism as well, and that's the topic. We're all shit but you're louder imo
Tomorr3@reddit
I mean, why should we care about the opinion of others? Who exactly can judge us? The germans with their ww2 history? The french and british and spanish and portugese with their colonies? Italy whose southern part is run by mafia? Slavs who kill each other because they are extremely 'different' to each other due to using different alphabets?
Nah, I am tired of this western-centered rhetoric. Everybody should act like they feel to. Not everyone has the same background.
Because that's what your media wants to make you believe.
HeyVeddy@reddit
You don't really see other European countries be patriotic the way the Balkans are. They all have ruthless histories to be ashamed about and they mostly are. Still, you don't see their pride. My examples earlier were Switzerland or Norway, and you don't see them being overtly patriotic either.
It's not a western oriented view, the conversation started here in the Balkans, it is the perception the Balkans have of Albania. You can dismiss our point of view if you want though, but we definitely don't get it from the west or from the media (media doesn't even talk about the Balkans, maybe Serbia, but definitely not about Albania)
Tomorr3@reddit
The rise of far right in EU begs to disagree. They have different historical circumstances, they weren't invaded by Ottomans. That's why they didn't display the same nationalism like we in the Balkans do. But now that muslims have immigrated there, things are starting to look like here, right?
It is the perception your media wants to make you believe about us. Tell me a nationalistic party that has been in power in Albania? Meanwhile croatia, serbia, bulgaria nmk are ruled by right wing nationalists?
Why are you speaking on behalf of the Balkans, dude? Ah yes, every single one of you had to personally deal with an Albanian during their lifetime, media or the west doesn't play any role at all.
HeyVeddy@reddit
Has nothing to do with other countries nationalism or patriotism other than people think Albanians are most patriotic 😂 we don't hear anything about Albania on the news, we see it on social media comments and in the cities etc lmao.
If that angers you, that's for you to deal with. People react to patterns of behaviour
Tomorr3@reddit
On social media I have seen plenty of croatians, greeks and serbs who make nationalitic comments as well. Why would Albanians take the cake here? Because you like to blame it on Albanians due to being based? Take a hike. Literally none of your arguments have any basis till now.
I am not angered, I am amused at your obtusity...
HeyVeddy@reddit
Nope, I states by saying we're all shit holes and patriotic just Albanian strikes people as loudest. Anyways, I don't give a shit anymore, I'm sorry I hurt you, peace ✌🏼
Tomorr3@reddit
To YOU.
You didn't hurt me. All your myths got debunked here, but you think that acting like you don't care after teplying to all my comments makes you the winner, lol
HeyVeddy@reddit
No I don't I just realized you won't accept what a common narrative is and that's fine.
Tomorr3@reddit
I presented all my arguments based on facts. You presented yours based on social media perceptions and "trust me bro" sources. Why would I have to accept that?
sorealbin@reddit
oh wow, a serb recycyling “albanians are primitive” propaganda, who would’ve thought!
rlesii@reddit
It's a bit odd that you ascribe Albanians as being "nationalistic on another level even for Balkan standards".
I think there's a difference between nationalism and patriotism. Nationalism leads to pretty ugly things; patriotism does not. I would ascribe our actions as patriotic rather than nationalistic.
No Albanians (whether in Albania proper, Kosovo, or North Macedonia) have committed any mass crimes against their neighbors, fueled by nationalism alone. You'd be ludicrous to argue otherwise.
On the other hand, you guys have a pretty ugly and recent history on this topic...
jinawee@reddit
Why do people get offended if a German does the Roman salute or uses Buddhist symbols?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Because Germans are not Romans or Indian.
itlo@reddit (OP)
The idea of my post was to bring attention to a common symbol that we all use, should be something that unites us. I had no intention to provoke or something. That's all.
blumonste@reddit
This sub shouldn't be a place to provoke people against each other. Every day I see new posts here trying to promote hostility online. Not healthy at all.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Basicly make a statement reflceting your views and add a "Why" in the front. There you go.
Prior-Leave-6610@reddit
Albanian chicken gesture? Not offended at all
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Let us not be naive, or act so. It is the context of indioendence and such gesture was condemned by Serbia when Xhaka and Shaqiri scored against them. Instead of sucking it up, they made it a big deal out of it and now uefa thinks the gesture is racist against serbs. Serbia used to enjoy big influence in international institutions regarding sports due to former Yugoslav winning major competitons. Now the climate is changing.
Bilbolbu@reddit
What big influence lol? How was this ''big influence'' manifested?
Sport success doesn't necessitate influence and decisions in international sport institutions, the current geopolitical climate does. That's why all Russian national teams and clubs were banned from all international competitions as soon as the war n Ukraine started but Israel for example is still allowed to compete even after the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
The event of eagle gesture was a decade ago. Many Kosovo footballers, before such incident, then, wanted to join Kosovo because in the very begining it was a big deal to them. Serbian federation made it impossible by postponing with lobbying, complaints and such and so many chose either the Swiss, or Albania. This was the context of the time then.
Serbian federation then lectured uefa on how players of Albanian origin are not supposed to display their nationalist symbols as long as they play for other national teams. Such incident would not even be happening if Kosovo had become member sooner. And i do not comprehend why Serbia would be so firm about not letting Kosovo in any sporting events. Scotland and many other countries which are not fully indipendent participate.
This is what i remember from context of the time. Instead of simply letting it slip, Serbian federation made it look worse than it was and now, a decade after, uefa does not spare any of us from hefty fines, yellow cards, suspensions etc.
Bilbolbu@reddit
So did you just make this all up or are there actual evidence behind anything you wrote here?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
How did i make it up. Shaqiri and Xhaka were not allowed by uefa to go to Kosovo national team when it became a member. This is a fact.
Bilbolbu@reddit
Because they had already played for Switzerland? UEFA doesn't allow to switch national teams if you already played for another senior national team.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Exactly! If Serbia had not turned over every stone NOT to allow Kosovo, which took years, they would have joined Kosovo.
Bilbolbu@reddit
And Kosovo was admitted to both UEFA and FIFA eventually so what big Serbian influence again?
And I don't know why are you so shocked Serbia tried to block Kosovo from becoming a member of UEFA and FIFA, Serbia doesn't even recognize Kosovo so why would it be ok with Kosovo in UEFA and FIFA?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
And i wonder why Serbian federation gets shocked when Albanians feast with eagle gesture once they score against Serbia while playing for other Nationals.
Bilbolbu@reddit
What makes you think they get shocked? On the contrary, it's quite expected.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
If it was expected, why complain to uefa then 🤔
Bilbolbu@reddit
Something that is expected can still be offensive to some. Is that hard to comprehend or something?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
I understand very well. My initial comment was exactly that. No need for your federation to make a big deal. Instead of sucking it up and train better for the next match, they went on the "polictical" path and now, Serbia, a team which has far more quality players than Albania, has no odds to qualify.
Bilbolbu@reddit
Obviously someone thought it was a big enough deal to take action, now you may like it or not, agree with it or not, but it is how it is.
Serbia, unlike Albania, at least qualified at some point in history. And Albania still hasn't qualified, don't celebrate prematurely.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Qualified when they still had Croatian players 🤣
Bilbolbu@reddit
Serbia literally qualified for the last WC and the one before that. In 2006 (as Serbia and Montenegro though) and 2010 too, we only missed the 2002 and 2014 WCs, what are you on about?
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Most probably, you will miss this one though 😂
Bilbolbu@reddit
Not the end of the world. There are far more important things in life to look forward to.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Cool.
Desperate_Ad_4168@reddit
It is racist because they used that gesture only when they played against Serbia. They didn't used before, after. I never saw Xhaka and Shaqiri ever used that gesture when they for football club or against other teams. They used specifically and only when they played against Serbia.
DK_Aconpli_Town_54@reddit
Because no other country’s media consistently attacked their Albanian heritage before the match even took place. Likewise, no other country’s fans spent the entire match chanting insults solely because they were Albanians. It’s honestly hilarious when Serbs try to portray themselves as these progressive, civilized nations.
Fickle-Message-6143@reddit
If that was true those institutions wouldn't accept Kosovo to play until they get recognized by Serbia. Then the fines espiccaly to Football Association of Serbia.
Ok_Stretch_405@reddit
Because there is no veto option. You understood well, don't act as if it wasn't the case.
Bilbolbu@reddit
I wouldn't say offended, more like annoying. Idiots spam it in every situation that has anything to do with Serbs or Serbia.
KDtheDictator@reddit
exactly, we spam it with everyone hence why it's a symbol that represents us, you aren't that important to make us spam it against everyone to offend you.
Bilbolbu@reddit
Sure thing buddy, whatever.
Rare_Masterpiece_586@reddit
👐?
Bilbolbu@reddit
Back to hieroglyphics?
Turbulent-Ad1123@reddit
Problem in itself is because hate the albanian flag. It really is not more complicated than that. And what does human nature do when their symbols are hated. You guessed it: they’ll waive them higher as a resistance. It’s classic philosophy 101
Dear-Potential-3477@reddit
I don't find it offensive when they do it usually but when you do it in our faces with your tongue sticking out you might as well show the middle finger, We know what you are doing
True-Blacksmith4235@reddit
Why are you being purposely obtuse. Like what is this lol.
I actually don’t care. We have bigger problems.
NegotiationNo4399@reddit
Because it is "Big Albania" sign
SolivagantWalker@reddit
In general on its own it's fine. It's perverted towards us, anything related to Albanian nationalism that is being portrayed in the media ( our outlets ) is followed by a negative response.
momcil@reddit
I dont care
nrliii@reddit
I personally dont and it was funny when an Albaniam did it when he heard me speak in Tirana, but i guess its probably because its used for nationalistic purposes like the "Serbian salute" aka the 3 fingers.