Absurd fallacies of "minimalist" Linux setups
Posted by letmewriteyouup@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 142 comments
Posted by letmewriteyouup@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 142 comments
peaceful-gnu@reddit
I think that at the end of the day what matters is getting the job done, no matter the distro or DE and full stop.
However, I can recognize that there is some kind of thrill and fun in finding and crafting your own configuration, such as a WM setup. Saying that the latter is the way for all the users would be absurd, but from time to time I also enjoy improving my setup and streamlining it to my needs.
za72@reddit
user choice always matters
PresentDirection41@reddit
Believe it or not, quite a lot of users don't want choice. Or rather, they choose to let someone else choose for them, because they see choice as a burden. This is why platforms like Mastodon struggle to gain widespread adoption, because most users just want to be on the one platform everyone else uses. Similarly, if you're trying to sell Linux to the general public and tell them "just choose which distro is right for you," they are overwhelmingly going to stay on Windows, because most of them have absolutely no idea how to even approach that decision.
za72@reddit
nice speech but choice matters, it determines success or failure - it's up to the developer to offer the important ones as time allows
SuperSathanas@reddit
No, it's pretty well recognized that while people generally feel like they want more options, overwhelmingly what they do is settle with one of the first options that works for them, and they generally don't want to invest much time or energy into initially exploring those options. People are most content with just being provided with an option that works and leaving it at that. Then, they only again start to consider their options when they are incentivized to, by being made aware of something that is some degree better than what they already have, better enough to outweigh the costs of making the switch.
At the end of the day, more choices/options means more cognitive load and stress. People typically want to avoid cognitive load and stress.
za72@reddit
you're right, we should just have one type of shoes, one type of car and type of hair cut...
PresentDirection41@reddit
No, you just don't understand reality. You don't understand that your perspective is the perspective of a tiny minority, and that the vast majority of people feel very differently than you do. To think the solution is simply "better description between choices" is a level of being out of touch that genuinely boggles the mind. It doesn't matter how you describe choices, people don't even know what they want. All they want is an operating system.
za72@reddit
ok buddy
lelddit97@reddit
yes use unnecessarily complex words as if they make your argument true
rbrownsuse@reddit
“User choice always matters” is only true when developer contributions are infinite
But they’re not.. so it actually becomes a very false statement
“Developer decisions always matter” is more true; but developers may decide to offer choice, or offer no choice, or not be around to do either
So that can leave user choice quite limited, and users should expect that
mfgiatti@reddit
If developers are the users or the users are developers?
rbrownsuse@reddit
Then their choices as users don’t matter
Only the ones they bother to contribute back actually move the needle
za72@reddit
Users ch
OneBakedJake@reddit
Users should focus on which user space distribution best align with the choices the want to make (or not) or flexibility they desire to have (or not).
Beyond that, users IMO should be the change they want to see in a project, and contribute or create.
rbrownsuse@reddit
I agree
SteveHamlin1@reddit
A user's choice about how to setup their Linux desktop from currently available optons always matters.
rbrownsuse@reddit
Sure but that mindset can lead to some surprisingly toxic results
Every choice offered to users on any platform is expected to work with every other choice offered on that same platform
So, if you’re offering a platform/distro that really embraces that choice mindset you very quickly end up with huge support matrices that are practically impossible to maintain, support, or give a good experience with for your users
So, there’s actually a strong argument that presenting choices should be avoided by developers in favour for being far more focused on providing users with a polished experience
It’s impossible to do both well - even if you have sufficient developers to counter the exponential maintenance and support challenges from all those interaction points, you still end up with presenting users with so many choices you alienate more than you appeal to
abotelho-cbn@reddit
Based on what? Developers are the ones doing the work. If no developers care about what a particular user wants, what do you expect to happen?
za72@reddit
stay stagnant and face the consequences
definite_d@reddit
r/quotes
ilep@reddit
Developer's can make choices that no user wants. What is the purpose of software that nobody wants? There are plenty of examples out there.. Developers make choices all the time, but if the choice is actively hindering user work that is a poor choice.
natermer@reddit
It depends on what the goal of the particular software is.
And, you are right, all user's choices do not always matter.
SteveHamlin1@reddit
A user's choice on how to setup available options always matters.
AnEagleisnotme@reddit
I do think there's a place for a proper tiling desktop environment though, Hyprland's abnormal popular shows that
Melnik2020@reddit
The tiling is what drove me to use pop_os to begin with, so I agree.
wowsomuchempty@reddit
Cosmic is ace, if a little thirsty.
I usually have comic + sway on my distros now.
Melnik2020@reddit
I have to try sway. Switched from cosmic to standard gnome because their alpha release was too unpolished so I'm just waiting for the stable release to fully switch back.
wowsomuchempty@reddit
Fair enough. Alpha worked for me, as does the beta.
Melnik2020@reddit
Everyone keeps saying that so I don't know if I did something wrong. I tried to mount my phone and was not getting the notification on cosmic 7, whereas I was able to do it with gnome.
OneBakedJake@reddit
Sway has a Fedora Atomic spin that's the best (in my biased opinion.
AnEagleisnotme@reddit
Eh, I think tiling window managers make a very good case for custom atomic images really, also no codecs
-p-e-w-@reddit
Hyprland is for 15-year-olds discovering the thrill of being in total control of their own computer for the first time. Sway is for professionals who want total control, but don’t have the time to spend half their day on ricing, and Gnome is for people who just want something that works without ever having to think about the details.
Desktop Linux is a big tent, and there’s something for everyone in it. The truth is that almost all desktops work well now. The dark days are over.
natermer@reddit
AwesomeWM was always better then i3. It is kinda disappointing that the i3 thing was always more popular.
Tiling WM as a concept, though, is broken. There is a certain specific set of applications for which it works very well, but otherwise it is inferior to floating windows.
I believe that tiling wm brokenness is why so many users are looking for "terminal alternatives to GUI software" all the time and going through the hell of writing their GUIs in the terminal as "TUIs" rather then just, you know, writing GUIs using a GUI toolkit. Which are going to look a lot better, be faster, and be a lot more flexible.
semi-@reddit
What makes you say its broken? I havent used one in a long time but the only app I remember behaving poorly was gimp due to its multi window nature,and at the time it was easy enough to just run it in a nested X session.
BigHeadTonyT@reddit
Must be why the Dev ISO Omarchy is based on Hyprland. Everyone is a 15-year old dev...
popcarnie@reddit
To be fair I am pretty sure dhh is a 15 year old in an old mans body
wowsomuchempty@reddit
I want to try niri, but sway is too perfect.
ocamlenjoyer1985@reddit
I need to try sway again at some point.
I chose hyprland over sway initially because sway had issues with nvidia cards and I think it was missing HDR support at the time.
zdog234@reddit
Hmm I need to try sway. I saw the appeal of hyprland but gave up and switched back to kde
-p-e-w-@reddit
Sway has been my daily driver since 2019. In that entire time, I encountered one bug. One. And it was fixed in the next release.
gesis@reddit
I've been using various tiling WMs since the 90s (starting with the OG, ratpoison). It really is a more efficient windowing paradigm for some of us, especially if your workload involves lots of text.
I don't use Hyprland though. I prefer riverwm for being simple and getting out of my way.
Honestly, I'm pretty much the model of what OP is decrying as absurd. I use cli utils for file management and the like, use a barebones tiling wm, a "few frills" terminal emulator (foot), and run one of the most minimal distros (alpine).
Doing so makes my life easier. To provision a new machine, I pull some text files from git and go. The only stuff running on my machine is the stuff I need to get work done, etc... I don't have to worry about updating/maintaining anything I don't actually need, or pruning it at install.
That said, I don't "rice" things. I configure everything to do what I need and leave it alone until my needs change.
Berengal@reddit
Tiling WMs are absolutely the way to go on huge monitors and multi-monitor setups. Also for small screens like tablets and smaller, although the tiling behavior should be different...
AnEagleisnotme@reddit
On smaller screens I cannot live without scrolling wms
Jojos_BA@reddit
Ppl are just tired of that absurdity inefficiency window moving. On windows i think less than 1 percent use virtual desktops, and then still having 20 windows open and 3 monitors at leas just to get a somewhat nice experience.
With hyprland 2 monitors a nice config and you are absolutely golden. It is such a blessing (a tilling wm not hyprland specifically)
Even working with one 14” monitor is acceptable, that is not the case with a windows like setup.
Its such a fresh take on window management for those new too it and its bliss
thearctican@reddit
Boy do I love my tiling setup.
But KDE is just so complete and practical out of the box.
conchobarus@reddit
The article very much misses the “fun” aspect of setups that do very little for you out of the box. I don’t do it because it makes my life easier or makes me more productive; I do it because I’m a dweeb who likes configuring computers.
wowsomuchempty@reddit
I daily drive alpine for work.
It's not like I'm crunching anything on my client box.
warpedspockclone@reddit
I can take the front tire off your bike, but I'm gonna need a full garage of Snap-On tools first.
/s
I am not a minimalist. I just want stuff to work, and I want to be able to configure, install, uninstall to fulfill any edge case I may have. Up and until that edge case surfaces, I'm not bothered. As long as it isn't Windows or Mac.
Horror_Hippo_3438@reddit
Linux is, above all, freedom. This means everyone has the right to decide for themselves what constitutes minimalism, regardless of how mister Drifter defines it.
If someone thinks Hyperland is minimalistic, then for them Hyperland is minimalistic.
SneakySnk@reddit
reads like a rage bait? very dumb point.
A lot of people can get a working arch install with their hyprland setup up in less than what it takes to disable all the telemetry bullshit during a windows installation. Your setup is just better and simple for you, If someone else feels better on their own Hyprland/i3/sway setup, good for them, who cares?
Linuxologue@reddit
People who like minimalist setups and people who rice hyprland with quick shell are not the same people.
mrtruthiness@reddit
But people who want to show off their minimalist setups and people who rice hyprland with quick shell are very similar people.
NeonVoidx@reddit
this, and your article about "memorizing n keybinds" so? lol who cares, some of us don't like clicking drop-down menus to copy paste
callmenoodles2@reddit
Well minimalism can mean different things. Speaking of cognitive load, I like that my desktop is pretty much empty. Was it a pain in the ass first time customizing a tiling wm? hell yes. Is my setup relatively simple to use? Not for others. Does it LOOK minimal, yes :)
Inb4 hotel? trivago
toadi@reddit
I could also go as I hate gui's. Always need to remember where is the button to do xyz.
Love the simplicity of the cli so I have a window with the cli. Over the years more and more moved over to the browser as it seems you can't even own you own clients anymore. ms email/teams for work in the browser, discord in the browser, whatsapp/fb messenger in the browser, ...
I don't have any other app open...
zappedfish@reddit
I agreed, but please never use the words "Full stop" :D
Aggeloz@reddit
Kind of a dumb post tbh. You like what you like, if you're unable to use the setup of someone else that doesn't take away from the minimalism. Also shitting on other for their taste in minimalism or on how their OS looks is something a 5 year old would do.
Average-Addict@reddit
I feel like the author just grabbed someone's dot files and complains because he doesn't know the keybinds.
Aggeloz@reddit
That's exactly what i think too.
thesamenightmares@reddit
I can't imagine caring this much about how somebody else sets up their operating system.
kill-the-maFIA@reddit
It's absolutely rife in this community.
You will unironically have someone say that Linux is about choice, then that same person will fly off the handle the second they see someone using a DE/packaging format/etc that they don't approve of.
thesamenightmares@reddit
Yes, that was the entire point of my post.
fishpowered@reddit
I'm not against power user tools like good keyboard shortcuts for windows management but I did some pair programming recently with the fastest developer on our team and was shocked at how few shortcuts he used, often using right click menus and running full terminal commands and stuff. I came to the conclusion these things are micro-optimisations at best and how you go about your work is way more important.
I also tried hyprland and was surprised at how much the keyboard experience came at the cost of the mouse experience. i get you're supposed to use a keyboard but sometimes i don't wanna get my keyboard out and just use the mouse, like when I'm using my pc from the sofa, and hyprland sucked with just the mouse, where as gnome/windows has both a decent mouse and keyboard support. Maybe it would be a nicer experience on my work laptop but then again the screen is so small do i ever really need to tile anything..
Slackeee_@reddit
It is weird that you write an article about "user-friendliness" but totally cutting out the user part. Your Notepad++ setup works for you because you have memorized where all the functions in the menu are. They have become "intuitive" to you because you have trained yourself on it. The same way I have memorized the way I work with my system, all the "37 key combinations" are handled by muscle memory, I don't think "I want to close that windows, so I have to press Windows+C", I just do it.
My setup is as user friendly for me as yours is for you. Because we are not the same user.
oxez@reddit
Yup.
Makes me laugh inside when some Windows "power-user" thinks that we're weird for memorizing commands "Linux is outdated, who uses terminals nowadays!" yet they scream at their PC every time Microsoft updates their OS and menus aren't the same.
KittensInc@reddit
Us Linux users are pretty vocal any time the CLI commands change, though...
oxez@reddit
When does that ever happen though?
The only things I had to learn over the ~~years~~ decades were the different package managers.
And maybe when I swapped my systems from openrc / sysvinit to systemd (for the better, of course)
KittensInc@reddit
Their argument is that this isn't the case. A GUI like Notepad++ has discoverability. You can quickly browse through the menus to find the option which seems to best match the action you want to do. You can operate it without remembering anything - and if you become a power user, the shortcut is listed right there. Switching from Windows to Mac? It'll require a few weeks to become efficient, but you are productive on day 1.
On the other hand, a lot of "minimalist" CLI-heavy setups require a certain amount of knowledge to even get started. For example, even if you have experience using a CLI on Windows, you are absolutely useless when first dropped in a Linux CLI! You can't even open the man page for the task you want to do, because you don't know which man page to open yet. You need a significant upfront investment just to get the most basic stuff done. Often those "minimalist" setups extend this to the entire OS, and you're dropped down quite far towards that state of helplessness any time you have to do an operation which is a bit remote from your usual happy path.
I have never used the new Windows 11 settings app. I am 100% convinced that I will be able to figure out how to have a laptop present slides on an externally-connected beamer with notes on the laptop screen itself. Some Hyprland setup? Forget about it, I'll probably give up after 15 minutes of Googling and not getting any useful answers. Most Computer Science students have probably seen this play out in practice during group presentations, with another team member getting fed up and grabbing their own laptop to get things done.
In other words: just because you are used to it for your specific workflow doesn't mean the interface is objectively user-friendly. If people are confused by a door, sometimes it is just the door's fault.
BareWatah@reddit
I just fucking realized this guy is saying Notepad++ is simple :sob:
Like, what? VSCode would be something that I would say is a good balance of "intuitive just works literally anybody could use it first try", because that was literally me when beginning programming.
Notepad++.... I mean, it's a persistent text editor! That's pretty good. I use it. Couldn't imagine more complicated workflows on it...
SmileyBMM@reddit
The only part that is true here is that Windows/Python/Notepad++ is more ubiquitous, but that sure as shit doesn't make it better. Windows is not more understandable or intuitive, the only reason it is to you is because you have experience. It also is objectively less replicable since you can't literally copy paste configurations like you can with Hyprland.
This post really seems like it's written by someone salty because they can't understand why people like minimalism as a concept. I don't personally prescribe to the philosophy, but I at least understand it.
Fresh-Chocolate1561@reddit
I like the level to which you control and customize your system and the tools you rely on. I don't think it's mandatory for every Linux user to roll their own setup to a deep level, but personally, I like the level of customization and necessity to learn how everything works to be able to use the system.
That being said, if you want it to just work, with minimal brain cycles, then minimal, custom, Linux setups are probably not for you.
Angar_var2@reddit
Bullshit article.
Random words thrown together and never connected or explained.
View bait for his blog i bet.
For one, you dont need to remember 37 commands for a twm, at most you use 10 frequently. The rest can exist in some form of cheatsheet to reference whenever you need to IF you ever need to.
Two, the only true metric isnt the users cognitive load, but it is a very valid metric. A casual user who also uses i3wm has no issues remembering things. On the other hand, if you use gimp, i3wm, neovim, git and tmux because you are a front end designer/developer we are looking at a totally different situation where you most likely will get overwhelmed by the sheer amount of keybinds you need to remember.
Then we have the whole minimalism rant part. What is minimalism? Are we talking aesthetics? Are we talking pre installed packages? Isnt more minimalistic to use scrot to take pics of your screen and have it customized 4 ways through aliases than installing some 3rd party package that does the same thing but installs 20 libraries along the way for gui and what not?
Four. The purpose is to be functional not decorative? According to who? For many newcomers to linux, the ability to decorate/rice their desktop is what drives them to learn linux, create and contribute. There is pure excitement thinking how you are going to rice your system to fit your perfect aesthetic and the best way i have to describe this feeling is by remind you how you felt as a kid during christmass morning or the morning of your birthday. And this feeling later drives people to tinker a bit more, learn a bit more and maybe contribute and create a bit more.
Lastly about the terminal part. You fail to understand how much more convenient and customizable using the terminal is compared to using guis. You can add debug output to your program when executed through terminal, you can change the execution parameters on a whim, things that would take you 5-10 seconds to do through a gui are done within 2-3 seconds when done from the terminal. There is much more control when something is done over the terminal and that is why many people choose to use it. So when you end up doing 90% of your actions through terminal why would you even need to have a gui or DE installed? Why not straight up remove the useless to you resource overhead? It is not elitism, it is just more convenient.
Overall? You are intimidated by things you dont understand, you lack the experience and a use-case that would make a twm useful to you and you are passing judgement without understanding first to which users needs the minimalistic linux setups provide a solution.
2rad0@reddit
3 paragraph newbie linux article complaining about too much freedom while sugestions a windows based workflow = 82 points 70% upvoted. A real newbie asking a question = 0 points. This is the state of /r/linux
marrsd@reddit
This stuck out for me as well. The whole point of having a minimalist setup (from a UX p.o.v.) is to have a minimal set of tools that provide a consistent UI and therefore reduce cognitive load. For example, my custom DE is essentially built around dmenu. I use it for everything from launching apps to attaching monitors. I notice DHH has done something similar with Omarchy.
Agreed. And their experimentation innovates desktop design. It's also quite a useful subculture for people like me (who aren't into ricing per se) because we get to see what it is possible to achieve when building our own desktop environments.
I would just add to your comment that ricing and minimalism aren't even in the same category. They may over lap, but probably not very much if they do.
Fenguepay@reddit
and here i am making ugrd which is "minimalistic" but with a focus on the features it has being very user friendly and while still respecting user choice
foobookee@reddit
I don't think people who customize their setups, and people who like their minimal setup are entirely same groups of people, though there is definitely an overlap between the two. You seem to be confused with that.
"Computers and the programs running on it are tools and their purpose is to be functional, not decorative."
Imo, that's a bleak way of looking at anything. Live a little, and surround yourself with aesthetics; our senses are made to sense. Tools are not only meant to be purely functional, but also are not meant to be purely aesthetic, and the synthesis of both functional and aesthetic is, imho, superior than the extreme ends of two. Aesthetics can be functional, and functional can also be aesthetic. We do things not only to progress, but to live.
l-roc@reddit
Never heard someone call their involved linux config minimalist, is that even a real thing? For all intents and purposes I'd call my config quite maximalist (only the visible UI is minimalist, maybe they confuse this?).
It does serve my exact needs though, so for me it's better.
Do they really want to imply that my custom keyboard setup and mostly key navigation I have set up because of health issues is just inferior because cognitive load? Ok, sorry then I guess...
mmarshall540@reddit
It is a misguided article, but it does point out something valid. There are misguided people who think that somehow they are engaging in "minimalism" by setting up a highly customized system. That is very much not a minimalist endeavor.
I suppose it may be possible to have a "minimalist" desktop Linux setup. We are starting from a disadvantage if that's the goal, since the Linux desktop is such an unusual and niche system. There is more learning required, and that's just the way it is.
On the other hand, the standard PC desktop of Windows requires a significant amount of configuration just to reduce all of the constant distractions that are intentionally built-in to it. So it's not an optimal starting point either.
I think that for those of us who prefer the Linux desktop, it has to be for reasons other than "minimalism". Yes, that can be a side benefit. But it wouldn't make much sense if that were the primary motivation. I suspect for most of us the primary motivation has something to do with "freedom". And also, because it's fun.
burnerburner23094812@reddit
Yeah and when people do talk about minimalism with very involved configs, it's always pretty obviously aesthetic minimalism in context, which is a totally valid thing to desire (and indeed a tiling window manager is absolutely one of the more effective ways to bring that into reality).
ZunoJ@reddit
Lol, remembering 37 custom keybindings is no cognitive load
natermer@reddit
Generally speaking unless it is a command you execute more then a few times every hour to the point were it becomes instinctive then stopping to have to remember keybindings is always going to be slower then visually selecting functions with a mouse.
A couple of the examples were keybindings is almost always going to be faster:
If you are using a IBM CUA-style standardized interface for applications were "Alt" key can be used to execute menu commands then frequently used commands such as "save file", "undo", "copy", "paste", "cut" will usually be faster then clicking through the menu.
The nice thing about CUA style interfaces from the 1990s is that GUI applications were standardized in their behavior. That is you could hold down "alt" to highlight menu entries and such things. So that keybindings were very discoverable. But all of that has been long abandoned by desktop and GUI authors trying to pursue a "apple style" or "flat modern" aesthetic with the stupid hamburger menus and we are worse off because of it.
if you are using Adobe Photoshop and frequently switch between tools then it is very easy to remember the key presses for copy, paste, undo, resize window, and your favorite tools and such things. Most people working with this sort of software use Left hand on the keyboard for short cuts and right hand with the mouse or stylus.
For more sophisticated user interfaces, like using a Artist's tablet, there will usually be a row or grid of dedicated keys that can be assigned to keyboard shortcuts.
But where it falls apart and the cognitive load becomes a problem is when you have multiple LAYERS of shortcuts.
Like, say, you are using a sophisticated text editor like Emacs or NeoVim inside of a terminal inside of a tiling WM.
So you have the WM keybindings, the terminal keybindings, and then the editor's bindings.
It becomes a big problem trying to make everything work together. Switch to a new terminal that has tabs or something like that then you can run into fun conflicts with the WM and your editor. And it requires touching and customizing almost every piece of software you use to make it all work together.
The end result is something that "feels fast", but is actually slow.
mmarshall540@reddit
Don't use Emacs in the terminal. It's there if you need it for some reason, but it's not nearly as nice as using the GUI. For your window manager keybindings, only use the Super key, and don't use it for anything in Emacs. No conflicts.
Also, use
cua-modein Emacs. That way you get the same cut, copy, paste and undo keybindings. For save, it's 2025 now, and every program has autosave capabilities, including Emacs.ZunoJ@reddit
You just have to have a system in place. Different leader keys for different applications. Like super for the WM, ctrl-b for the multiplexer and space for the editor. Then you have a modal layout for your keybindings, like a for applications so super a puts you into application mode then you have different keys for actions like c to close and l to launch. Or in emacs you have leader m for actions related to the current file type, if it is code you are working on it might have a sub mode for your build tools like b and then r to run the code. This way you can remember a lot of keybindings and start actions really fast. It takes time to get used to it but it will be faster than moving hands off the keyboard and click through a bunch of menus. At least it is for me. Modal is what works best for me
OneBakedJake@reddit
This article is cute, however it perfectly makes the case for immutable / atomic spins. Frankly, some user don't need the options, and have differing opinions on what constitute minimalism.
I'd advise the author to not assume that what might be heavy cognitive load for you, might be trivial to someone else. Use what works best for you. I personally enjoy my decorative with my functionality.
In addition, any esoteric setup with any tiling WM has extensive documentation, default sane configs, and memorizing anything is frankly, self defeating & counter intuitive to common sense.
undrwater@reddit
Indeed, "correct metric" for cognitive load seems impossible to define. Also consider "accessibility". We all have varying levels and forms of ability.
I'll disagree about memorizing, though. Some memorized shell commands make workload lighter.
Audible_Whispering@reddit
Well that was obnoxious and unpleasant, and i don't even use a tiling window manager or whatever he's shrieking about. Real old man yells at cloud energy, just shouting with no understanding whatsoever. I dunno, if I sat down to write about something and every single one of my examples of why thing is bad were made up hyperbole, I'd reconsider.
taernsietr@reddit
Wow, what a truckload of garbage.
neo-raver@reddit
When I first installed Arch, which my second distro, I noticed right away that nothing was there beyond 1) core drivers and what was necessary to boot the OS, 2) the basic Unix utility suite, or 3) what I had explicitly put there. That sense of total control, that feeling of working with a tabular rasa, was awe inspiring. It was this experience, actually, that I identified with “minimalism”.
But really what I loved is feeling in tune with my computer for the first time in my life. I felt like I really understood it, since I had largely made it the way it was, and if I wanted to change it further, I could, even down to the kernel source code! I think that feeling is really what people focused on minimalism are really after: they want the things on their computer to be only what they put in there. I think they’re like me: they love computers, and feeling like you’re using a computer is itself a draw. No matter what, I can say for myself that I love using Linux because of how much it keeps me close to my computer, how much it makes me conscious of what I do, because for me, endless tinkering is an end in itself, no matter the excuses of simplification, portability, optimization, etc. I give for it. I just really love computers, and Linux lets me love it all!
natermer@reddit
This is correct.
hulksmashgoogle@reddit
Minimalism is subjective. What’s minimalist to you might not be minimalist to someone else, because people have different standards for what the “bare minimum” is to begin with. People have different priorities and goals for what they want out of their system.
That’s why good GUIs are so hard to make. A good file explorer GUI isn’t the same as a good email GUI. Because different graphical elements have to be prioritized. Also why it’s challenging to have good art programs. Because you need to know what each artists workflow is and make a UI that’s balanced for your user base.
Minimalism in the context of Linux, means starting everything from scratch so that the user can figure out exactly what THEY need, rather than starting with a system that has a bunch of features they will never use. Same thing with a UI. A desktop environment that is full of features the end user doesn’t use, for them, isn’t minimalistic and is bloated.
When someone advertises their Linux setup as minimalistic, they are advertising that they know exactly what they want. They’re flexing knowledge of themselves and the software environment.
wafflingzebra@reddit
i don't use an OS, those are bloat. I manage my hardware manually like a real programmer \s
huskypuppers@reddit
IMHO minimalist setups only matter if hardware resource allocation is an issue. In this day and age I think that's limited to laptops from 10+ years ago, desktops from 15-20+ years ago, and lower-end embedded systems.
Dazzling_Kangaroo_37@reddit
The people who make and use these setups (myself included) are not the average user and dont rely upon user friendly aspects to get the job done.
For example, when I want something open i just type alt+d and open dmenu, type in the name, and it runs, no start menu, no home icons, no taskbar, no dock, i simply dont need it.
You seem to mistake utilitarianism for asceticism.
A given user's cognitive load is different from user to user, If i gave my machine to my computer-saavy friend he would have a hard time using it, and thats by design, its my machine, its my set of tools. One mechanic would have a difficult time finding tools in another mechanics shop.
Minimalism is entirely about not being decorative bro... Its about the functionality.
Your desktop setup doesnt need to be replicable, ubiquitous, or need to be intuitive or understandable to anyone but yourself. You're shitting on minimalism when you should be shitting on anyone who takes care of their technology and treats it how anyone in the past has treated their tools. I give a shit about my tools and I polish and calibrate them as i wish. Hyprland is gay.
ntropia64@reddit
It's a lot of words for "I tried minimalist and didn't like it".
I take this as an ode to the average (in a statistical meaning) user, and it's important to keep in mind when designing distros.
The rest is a lot of personal takes, which are welcome but not generalizable pretty much like the minimalist setup they're criticizing.
pfp-disciple@reddit
"Cognitive load" looks very different for some people. To use one of the author's examples: a tiling window manager with specialized key bindings can reduce the cognitive load of a person easily distracted by random windows and having to reach for a mouse
Shhhh_Peaceful@reddit
The blog post in question could have been very good and thought-provoking, but since the author was too lazy to elaborate on his points, it does not stand up to scrutiny.
The obvious response is that mass market UIs are created for average users who can’t keep two things in their head at the same time, are non-technical, and need constant hand-holding. To suggest that power users should be subject to the same restrictions is, frankly, insulting (which, I guess, is the whole point of the blog post). Furthermore, PCs are not shared appliances anymore, they are truly personal, which means that my setup needs to satisfy the needs of only one user (myself). Even if I use custom keyboard shortcuts, etc., at this point it has become completely automatic and does not impose any additional cognitive load on me.
Angar_var2@reddit
I just wanna point out that without average users we would never have so many options in gdes and wms, program compatibility and ease of installation would still be pretty bad, gaming would be still shit etc.
We have all these options because there are so many average users.
Sure, the average user is non technical but saying they cant keep 2 things in their head at the same time is a bit too much. Most people who enter something new are almost always confused and overwhelmed. And if u dont understand something and dont understand the value of something how are you going to retain it in your head?
I understand where you are coming from, but lets just cut them some slack here.
0riginal-Syn@reddit
With Linux it is truly "to each their own". Whatever people want to do with their Linux environment for whatever reason is all good to me.
lux__fero@reddit
So OP used something intended for people who like customizing software and doesn't like customizing softwere.
The point of WMs is making your own work pipeline, the point of hotkeys is making shit work specifically for you
They can go to coffee brewing sub and say "why would you brew coffee for an hour yourself then 3-in-1 packets work fine" Good for you, but for me coffee is a bit more than just stamina potion.(i prefer tea btw :) )
Please don't try to set your opinion as a problem of a whole comunity. There are at least 6k people who like tinkering with shit and just use default a good out of box DE(like KDE or Gnome) if you don't want to tinker with shit
Klapperatismus@reddit
I use fluxbox with mostly keyboard controls and maximized windows on four monitors.
Dunno if this is minimalist but all the fatter DE’s manage it poorly.
AmySorawo@reddit
I feel the post could've been longer so the points are more clear. "Minimalism" is a word with no meaning at least point.
michaelpaoli@reddit
If it's got X, Wayland, or any GUI on it, that's nowhere near minimal Linux.
IuseArchbtw97543@reddit
OOP has a skill issue.
There is such a thing as a learning curve with wms and similar tools. Yes at the start it might be confusing but thats the same with any other interface. A big reason as to why they feel intuitive to you is that you are used to them.
Over time a decent self configured setup will become more intuitive to you then any out of the box solution could ever hope to be.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
I don’t think this is really true, it could become as intuitive as an out of the box setup but I don’t see why it would be more intuitive. If you spend a lot of time on anything it will become intuitive
Heavy_Aspect_8617@reddit
If i have a common problem on my computer, there is less cognitive load for me to write a script that fixes the issue with a single button press using a cli command, than there is learning the combination of programs and submenus I need to interact with to fix the issue. If I need to find a window, there's less cognitive load when I know my browser is always on workspace two, compared to moving 5 different windows out of the way to find my browser.
Everyone is reducing their cognitive load, it's just that YOU don't get the "minimalist" setup so it's a cognitive load for YOU.
astrobe@reddit
Cognitive overload is zero when you've been using the same software and the same configuration for years - but that, someone who admits playing the distro-hopping game cannot understand or experience.
At work I use daily something like i3+tmux+vim (some names changed). I don't have much additions to dot files - I only use a couple of plugins in vim for instance. My keybindings have been the same for at least a decade, and I change the desktop picture and color theme maybe twice a year (seasons change more often). To be fair, this is a config for work, I have no time to fool around with it beyond making the things I do often, faster and/or more comfortable.
Distro-hopping is the true destroyer of your user experience, blame yourself instead of others who - by the way - never forced anyone to adopt their lifestyle.
derangedtranssexual@reddit
What kinda work do you do?
MoobyTheGoldenSock@reddit
I don't think this person knows what the word "minimalist" means. Even if they value a setup that is "ubiquitous, understandable, intuitive, and replicable," that does not make them "minimalist." Calling Windows minimalist is laughable.
BareWatah@reddit
Minimalist to me in a linux context means ease of reproducibility on linux enviornments.
I've installed linux on countless different OS's in countless different enviornments for work, personal preference, necessity, just trying out crazy stuff like trying to get linux working through proot'd termux (even patched void linux with a custom kernel once...).
My set of dependencies are basically:
git, wget, curl, stow as a bare bone starter setup.
tmux, vim, neovim, for fundamental "actual TUI tools."
sway, dunst, wofi for a very simple WM that doesn't do anything fancy (not even a bar!) and "just works".
I've really thought about the software I use and I like trimming down dependencies and like finding solutions that allow me to not maintain custom scripts. In that sense, I totally agree with the author - for example, I recently deleted a 100 line tmux shell script to show line numbers on copy mode. It was very brittle, but it did do work - but then I discovered OSC133 and I replaced it completely.
The part that doesn't get to me though is
I agree that more code and more dependencies and more just... custom things is generally not a sign of minimalism. But it also seems like the author is against learning the problem space and learning how to cut down.
Is that not the point of actual minimalism? If you look at minimalist philosophy for real, that is the point. Knowledge of how to streamline your life is a boon not a detriment.
"Minimalist" as in, I understand a small set of things I exactly need and how they fit into my life. Not minimalist as in, "the minimalist apple phone is so streamlined and sexy but cost 1400 dollars and locked into an ecosystem that promotes planned obsolesence etc."
In real life, I am pretty boring. Every weekend, bike to the grocery store. Go to work 9-5. Come home and do a bit of programming. Maybe go out here and there.
My set of physical dependencies, at least, is not that much. Exploring new stuff is not bad - I should do it more - but the point is that I've decided to trim down, at least for the past couple years, what I do and focus on what really matters.
That is what minimalism is, to me. Other people might regard it as absolute SLOC (e.g. tmux is 'bloat', use XYZ). Open source projects are great though, and pretty ubiquitous and standardized - I think that is the balance with minimalism. I would not be able to live my minimalist life if there were no grocery stores within biking distance, and if my workplace was not close by, and if I didn't have everything I wanted to do within a small radius, and so I am thankful for the people and opportunities that let that happen.
TL;DR I understand some of where the author is coming from. However, I still disagree, if you just look at fundamentally what minimalism is.
BareWatah@reddit
Also, another thing to add to my point:
I have to use windows, sshed into linux boxes at work a lot. Windows is not easy to remap keybinds in - e.g. if I want to switch between terminal and browser, I still have to alt tab.
To reduce cognitive load and be minimalist, I've changed some keybinds in sway to pretty much just reflect windows keybinds.
You might ask, "Why not just use windows at this point?" Because linux is ultimately more reproducible than linux and I like a linux-first enviornment.
I think, again, there are non-trivial examples of "minimalism" here.
(I also work in a sector where things are highly regulated and standardized, and it's hard to get software, so some of these opinions are based off of that lol.)
cocainagrif@reddit
Last Saturday I had a really fun time making my computer harder to use
spreetin@reddit
The author has a point, but it is not a very good one. Obviously a minimalist setup (among other things) aims to reduce cognitive load on the user, but what he seems to ignore is that it's load at the point of use, not at the point of creation.
If a certain setup reduces distractions and mental load for the user that is familiar with it, then it still does that even if it took weeks of intense focus to build.
T8ert0t@reddit
Spot on. 🎯
Linuxologue@reddit
I have been using Debian for such a long time because the default configs match what I usually need. If I ever need to install, the cognitive load is relatively light. That's the reason why I often come back to it - I have tried other distros and while never fully unhappy, I was not really "at home". I totally get this point of view.
But that's not a minimal setup by many definitions, it's got full Plasma with wobbly windows and I usually have a setup with 3000 packages.
I don't see a lot of overlap between "low cognitive load" and "minimal setup".
spreetin@reddit
A minimal setup usually means one of two things, often combined: only having the stuff you actually need installed instead of the kitchen sink, and secondly, having an interface and workflow with minimal distractions, often keyboard driven instead of using "cluttered" menus and buttons.
The second meaning is (partly) about cognitive load, the first not so much. I like both parts, and one of the things I enjoy about NixOS is the ease with which you can do ephemeral installs of applications, having them just gone whenever you close the terminal. I don't have to consider what applications I want to have on my system beforehand. If I need something I just run it.
Slackeee_@reddit
People oftentimes forget that the tools they use seem to be "intuitive" to them because they used them over and over again and have memorized how they work and where to find which function. Then they struggle with something that does not behave like they are used to and that must automatically mean that it is not intuitive.
spreetin@reddit
Yes, I started writing a bit about that at first, but then decided to just keep my comment more succinct.
derpbynature@reddit
tl;dr Different strokes for different folks. Minimalism is what you make of it.
OrangeKefir@reddit
Minimalism for me is synonymous with masochism.
I messed with some distro years ago, forgot the name but it was described as minimalist, it had KDE. I opened my folder of memes and there were no thumbnails. It too fucking ages to figure out why (some bollocking package was missing) and then took time to figure out how to install it.
I guess minimalist distros are like that but for a lot more things -_- Never again! I want ALL the packages, ALL the "bloat" aka stuff that makes basic things work.
onechroma@reddit
I mean, OP is spot in this. Linux “hardcore” users have a warped view about things (UX in this case) compared to the normal desktop users (the 90% using Windows/Mac).
And given they will be the same contributing to Linux direction and will be very vocal about “how things should be”, it leads to Linux having a gap to what the majority of the population thinks as “easy” or “minimalist”.
The classical dichotomy has been the GUI vs Terminal choice. For years, Linux users would defend that terminal commands were easier, faster and comfy compared to a GUI (“not necessary”), arguing the user should just learn the basics to use it. That’s delusional, expecting people coming from Mac, Windows or using only phones and iPads, to “learn” terminal commands and not GUIs.
Another example has been how Linux GUI makers sometimes a bit amateurs (very good at coding, bad at GUI and UX/UI), so instead of being very careful about how they do it (just like Apple thinking, like Jobs said, every option the user needs should be at view reach, or no more than 2 clicks yadda yadda), they just put whatever wherever. When Linux has to try to make their own UX (and not being guided from another software, like Office, Windows, Mac…) usually leads to a horror of usability. And then, they will say: no matter, terminal is better!
Now, we’re seeing another popularity just like the GUI vs Terminal times, using Hyprland and similar stuff because for the devs (Ddh making Omarchy for example) is perfect. But that’s not minimalism, it’s just customizing to a specific kind of user.
The person that makes wood furniture will have lots of tools, and minimalism will be about having them perfectly organised and only the ones needed.
But, for the person that knows nothing about woodworking, having so much tooling is not minimalism
peixeart@reddit
“Memorizing 37 keybinds” isn’t hard — you’re just being stubborn. You need keybinds to move to the window you want. That’s simply Super + Arrows/Vim keys. How is that more complex than Alt+Tabbing through all your windows trying to find the one you need? Isn’t that the real “heavy cognitive load”?
If you want to go directly to a specific window that you know where it is, how do you do it? Do you search through Alt+Tab? Or look at the taskbar and then click it with the mouse? Why not just use Super + number to go straight there? That works on almost every interface.
Now, if you want to move another window to that workspace, how do you do that? And if you want to organize two or more windows — how do you manage that? The answer to both is workspaces:
Super + {1..9} to switch workspaces.
Super + Shift + {1..9} to move a window to that workspace.
Is that hard? Not really. If you’re not clueless, you’ll also figure out that Super + Shift + Arrow keys move windows in that direction — just like Super + Arrow keys move your focus between windows.
To close a window? Super + Q — simpler than Alt+F4. To make it fullscreen? Super + F — easier than F11. That covers about 90% of my usage.
And if you really want to use the mouse, you still can:
Super + Right-click to move a window.
Super + Left-click to resize.
Is that harder than trying to grab the exact border or title bar just to move or resize something? I don’t think so.
Difficult_Pop8262@reddit
We all know hyprland is just for sharing cute screenshots on the internet.
Ok-Winner-6589@reddit
Using a WM has nothing to do with using the terminal for everything. I go with dolphin for my files, have a menú to launch apps and even have a store to download from flatpak even if I know how to do that from the command line
amagicmonkey@reddit
distros like silverblue and aeon are far more "minimalistic" than anything calling itself minimalistic
amepebbles@reddit
The issue with minimalist desktops is that seemingly no one can agree on what minimalism actually means so it is pointless.
That said, your article doesn't explain what cognitive load is, why it matters, why and/or how form over function is the end goal of minimalism as you imply, so it pretty much doesn't say anything at all.
Spending hours configuring software to your liking is not intrinsically bad, having preferences on how your software behaves is not intrinsically bad, function and form can and do go hand in hand, you could have done a better job writing that blog post.
iHarryPotter178@reddit
In order to write a better blog post, will require cognitive load. So to be minimal, OP/writer has forgone using the brain.
wowsomuchempty@reddit
Having read the article, my take: you gotta take your kicks where you can.
I have spent rather a while tweaking waybar, etc. But, my efforts go to a git repo and are reused and enjoyed.
Whatever anyone enjoys. I'm more a sway guy than hyprland, but if you like that, I'm glad for you.
szank@reddit
>Spending hours configuring software to your liking is not intrinsically bad
It's aslso not intrinsically good. It's a hobby. Some people have other hobbies. Some people look down on other people for not being interested in their particular hobby. Or having a particular hobby.
The point is that one should not get offended (usually) when their particular hobby gets criticised. It's (usually) not a personal attack.
amepebbles@reddit
And I agree with you, taking offense on other's opinions on your hobbies is rather silly, I don't think anyone here is offended nor defending that this is intrisically good either. My observation comes from the fact that, in the author's own words, his way is the only right way and this is simply not true:
That is, the author's metric. All I'm doing here is disagreeing with that, just like you and everyone else is free to disagree with as well.
theother559@reddit
whoever wrote this article conflates aesthetic minimalism (eg. hyprland) with functional minimalism (eg. suckless)
Schreq@reddit
Usage patterns can be minimal but when customizing it's easy to get infected with featuritis and do bike-shedding.
Customizing most aspects of your computer is a hobby for a lot of people but In my opinion a riced out setup with lots of customization is not minimal. Maybe the software itself is minimal but the configuration can be complex. It's baggage you have to drag with you. To me, minimalism also means using software with close to default settings.
mina86ng@reddit
What is asinine is arguing that your way of operating a computer is the only correct way. To type I need to ‘memorise’ position of 68 different keys and double—or maybe even triple—that when modifiers are considered. Yet, I have no cognitive load when I type. I can effortlessly write this comment and even include special characters such as em dash.
What matters is comfort. And being able to operate my computer without having to constantly reach for mouse does increase comfort.
Electrical_Tomato_73@reddit
The article is nonsense because the author doesn't recognize that you need to customize your setup ONCE, to exactly fit your taste, and then forget about it. For example, I set up my i3 config over ten years ago, migrated it largely unchanged to sway about 4 years ago, and otherwise I just don't worry about it. He is right about "cognitive load" being important. There is none after the first half hour of setup and first two days of getting used to keybindings.
There are reasons many people still prefer vi(m) or emacs to VS code and similar IDEs; and cognitive load is a big reason. Minimal setups, customised to your taste, offer much lower cognitive load than a one-size-fits-all setup thrust upon you by Microsoft or Apple or the Gnome folks.
Suspicious-Limit8115@reddit
Perhaps I’m in the minority here, but i just want to use Hyprland and sadly all the tweaking and compiling and bashing is forced since its not built into an existing desktop environment (if it were, I would have simply downloaded that and been happy).
Known-Watercress7296@reddit
It's fine, as he notes the issue is more just btw'ers on hyprland....meme stuff that's went viral on the socials for lolz
bathdweller@reddit
Lol hundred typed out customisations. You puny mortal!
NoEconomist8788@reddit
I agree with some of this, but I switched to tiled terminals for convenience and forgot about the window clutter forever. Who's stopping you from using GUI apps in tiled terminals? I rarely use the terminal, mostly for project compilation, debugging, and updates. And that's 10% of my daily wor
lospolos@reddit
10000 lines of config is still less code than any single gnome package hence in a way more minimalist.
0-pointer@reddit
If your metric for a “minimalistic setup“ is to reduce „user's cognitive load“, you're probably best off with what ever you're already familiar with.
That doesn't mean your „Windows/Python/Notepad++ setup“ is universally better in regards of beeing minimalistic. That's just your perception.
How is your view of minimalism any better then those „Linux people […] holding a very warped view of […] minimalism“ when there's no clear definition of whatever anyone of those were trying to achieve?
Don't bother to reply, this obviously is a rhetorical question.
ExaHamza@reddit
Minimalism and plain empty start (such as arch install) are not the same.
nattyebola@reddit
Minimalist -> gnome-shell ? 🧌
small_kimono@reddit
I think your thesis of this essay arises from conflation of "simple" and "easy", two things which are actually often in conflict. A great discussion of which can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxdOUGdseq4
I'll say this -- indulge both. What I have found is -- when you have to really live with something -- you usually find that simple is better than easy, because, the deeper you dive, it remains more understandable. When you can be more casual about something, easy can be preferable to simple.
Minimalism was always a goofy aesthetic, but rudimentary and uncomplicated have their place.